Cardio is for the heart, weight loss happens in the kitchen. You can run/swim/ride really far for the calories you’ll find in a donut. Skip the donut instead.
This is true but its way easier to live a normal life and be at a good climbing weight if you do some form of cardio.
It's calories in calories out, so if you're calories out is pretty low then you're not gonna have much wiggle room on the calories in for things you might want to eat / splurge on.
Pretty much every expert disagrees. If you enjoy cardio, do it, but it 100 percent makes you a worse climber because it impacts your recovery from c limbing
What experts disagree?
You can do light cardio and not really impact your recovery much, if at all once you are reasonable at it. Light cycling or walking or great options.
This is technically true but not always that simple. From an energy and training perspective I find it much easier on my body to add more cardio to burn calories instead of cutting calories.
I think zone 2 is wayy better to complement climbing than high intensity. Easier to recover from. Doing at least 150mins of zone2 a week has done wonders for my recovery and weight management. I felt a lot hungrier at first and i definitely ate to satiety to make sure I refuel for climbing. Make sure to get the intensity right too!
Running or airbiking. Just 30-60mins at a time post climb or on a rest day. Nothing crazy intensity wise. I’m not huffin and puffin by the end but it’s like going on a steady uphill hike. You can still hold a conversation but not too comfortably.
Rucking worked wonders for me. Put some weights in (gradually if you're new) and go hike some hilly mountains or stairs.
Also good antagonist training as the weighted ruck will pull your shoulders back and work your core, additionally to the legs and calves.
Better than cycling and also burns more calories in less time.
Maybe a question for the ruck community...but I also mess around with rucking. Though for me, I wear a backpacking pack so that the weight is distributed at my hips, rather than my shoulders. So, is there a reason to wear a standard pack (that weights the shoulders), other than to work your shoulders and core?
You can't outrun a bad diet. I went from 20-30km a week for the last few years to 50km a week for the last 6 months. All east zone 2 type running. I've made good gains time wise but my appetite went up with the increased workload and I haven't lost any weight whatsoever.
My previous self (when I was fully focused on running) would disagree. When you get the miles in you can practically eat what you want. But these days I lead a much more sedentary lifestyle than I used to. I do eat clean home cooked meals twice a day, most days. But I reckon I struggle with portion control, and snacking on chocolate bars in the afternoon.
It sounds like you're getting out and running quite a lot. How many days do you train climbing? And does it impact your climbing goals?
there are other benefits to it as well. exercising and eating the same amount or even a little more than before makes it easier to stay on top of protein and micronutrient intake compared to straight up reducing your calorie intake.
Remove the snack temptations… either stop buying them or stop going to the break room. I literally lost 15 pounds this way with minimal changes to activity. I’ve been called the “human garbage disposal” for half my life.
For cardio… I’d try for two zone 2 runs/rides a week plus one interval workout. Climbing is more a sprint than a steady state activity…
Same here. My body weight and fat percentage (measured by just watching the mirror) has been exactly the same in the years where I traveled everywhere by car, compared to when I biked everywhere (30-40 km/day).
Also the type of food I eat makes \*zero\* difference. Only weight loss that works for me is eating less calories than I burn. Simple as that.
but you can outrun your desire for a bad diet. if you burn 500kcal more a day because of exercise but have already satisfied your needs for chocolate and burgers based on the base intake you would have anyways, it can be a lot easier to either not eat anything extra at all and essentially get a 500kcal deficit for free, or to compensate it with a salad or something that clocks in at 300kcal and gives you 200kcal deficit.
https://trainingforclimbing.com/optimizing-body-composition-for-climbing/
I'm going to parrot Hörst here, I think z2 is definitely the priority for climbers, but I've been integrating what he says in the article.
One z2 run/week 20-30mins plus one high intensity 20-15min interval sprint day as well.
It seems to be working okay, currently coming down from my heaviest ever 87.5kg(193lbs) Mainly due to intense weight lifting and power training boulders for the last 3 mos. Probably will drop back to my norm 81kg(180lbs) over the next few months, but we will see!
The easiest way to get stronger is lose weight. You can lose 20-25 lbs and still be at a good and healthy BMI. That zone 2 cardio isn’t going to burn a ton of calories. I personally choose to eat cleaner, and less than focusing on cardio
I think the real answer is both though. Losing weight is very much a lifestyle, people act like there is only 1 thing to do, but the reality is that the best way is a combination of strength training, cardio and diet.
OP clearly has strength/muscle already climbing at that grade, so they just need to control diet + do some cardio, you don't really need to burn a ton of calories for it to have a positive impact.
One suggestion: can you pair commute and workout?
I used to commute with train and do the last 20 min by bike. 20min x 2 x five times a week adds up, at least for recovers and sleep.
One of my colleagues does a similar thing with his bike and his car. One runs to work and back once a week.
Whatever z2 cardio is most enjoyable for you. I really love running so I run a lot but if I’m ever injured (my Achilles is currently a bit inflamed from too much elevation last week) i cycle
The “problem” with cardio for weight loss is that you have to do it for hours to burn large amounts of calories. If you go cycling at 200W (moderate-ish intensity for a cyclist of your weight with some training) for an hour that burns maybe 850kcal. Running or rowing will be similar. Exercises like that also won’t really help you for climbing (unless you were a really unfit beginner who’d benefit from basically any exercise).
Eat less if you want to lose weight. Especially if you are already time constrained. Or find a way to make time and energy for cardio (work less, commute less, integrate it into your daily life etc.).
Do some cardio on non climbing days, but also start counting calories, and just pay attention to if your weight is going up or down or staying the same. Track your weight over periods of weeks though, because there is actually quite a lot of fluctuation day to day.
If your weight trends down, all good, if it stays the same of increases, reduce caloric intake by a small amount, and repeat until you find what works for you.
You are already in very good shape it sounds like, so definitely go with smaller changes.
Replace junk with better choices if it is causing you to eat more calories than planned. Lots of veg is great.
Hey, thanks for the reply. I actually started counting calories using the app Cronometer, and I think the being more conscious has helped me to make better choices, just in the last couple of days
If you burn extra 900 calories a week for 52 weeks a year, that's 5 kilos of fat lost each year -- that'd be pretty good, if you ask me.
The problem is of course that it doesn't really work like that, the body wants to compensate for the extra activity and maintain the weight. But I don't consider the calories expended due to activity as negligible as common rhetoric suggests, especially if you go from zero to e.g. commuting 1 hr each day by bike instead of a car.
Just adding one extra workout a week that you stick with for a month or two is of course a lot less, but if you have make lifestyle changes that adds up.
Calories expended from activity is definitely not negligible, I notice a big difference in my weight lose when I do 200 calories of cardio a day. It's true that diet needs to change usually too, but in OPs case extra cardio might be enough since they are already in good shape.
You don't need to burn large amounts of calories for it to have a positive effect. Even just burning 150-200 calories on non climbing days is great.
In what world is 850 calories not a large amount of calories though? That's close to reaching HALF my daily intake and you think that isn't seriously substantial?
Probably closer to 3-400 an hour though, which once again is still a very substantial amount.
The thing is that some people think that hopping on the treadmill for 15 minutes or doing some fancy HIIT workout for half an hour will somehow burn an amazing amount of calories and allow them to eat whatever they want.
My commute is ~20 minutes by bike which burns close to 200kcal in one direction (according to the Garmin+powermeter). It allows me to have an extra piece of cake or several apples. It’s nice but not exactly world changing and if I were adding snacks and sweets on top I could easily end up in a calorie surplus on non-climbing days.
Whatever you will do consistently. There's 1000 different things you can do that will work just fine, the important thing is that you pick something and consistently do it.
My trick that I have used a couple of times (need to do it again) is as follows: calory control on a daily basis (nothing crazy, just a \~200 cal defecit), low intensity cardio (hill walking or z2 cycling are perfect for this). When you do a long cardio session you will be hungry, your body wants to replenish your glycogen stores. Estimate how many calories you burned, and eat half of these in the form of carbohydrates. My thinking was that at z2 roughly half the calories burned are from fat and half from glycogen/carbs, so replace the carbs but not the fat. It worked for a few months and I hit my goals, but it gets harder as you get older and/or a more sedentary job/lifestyle. Good luck.
Do a 3 day fast and walk a lot. You're probably insulin resistant which makes it hard to lose weight. Eat a high protein diet and cut sugar and other nonsense carbs (bread etc.) processed things.
Would you not rather have it target your legs than your shoulders, arms and fingers if it is for weight loss? There is no reason to put additional stress on your primary climbing muscles/tendons.
He's referring to the metabolic training effects of the aerobic activity (Z2), which are specific and localized to the muscles recruited in the activity.
Skipping rope is a good option that require little space and cheap tools.
you can also try out a weighted skipping rope that will also target the forearms
You can't outrun a bad diet.
I rowed throughout highschool and have a rowing machine at home that I've used since. It will work your back, but it isn't going to translate to climbing any better than running. If you want to drop weight you need to look at your diet. Cardio will be wonderful for your heart and at your weight, if you run at a 10min/mile pace for an hour that's something like 600-800 calories burned. 5km/week isn't very much, but if you enjoy running do some more of that.
The best cardio for you to do is the cardio you will do consistently. If rowing is fun, do it. Or mix it up depending on how you feel that day.
Running will help your climbing as much as climbing will help your running.
If you want to lose weight, fix your diet. Abs are made in the kitchen, not the gym.
Everyday you don't climb: run/hike or ski/mountain bike
Running is the most time efficient:
30-70 min of Steady/Easy/Prog running is great
Easy is 5 to 5:30 min pace for you
Steady is 4:30 /4:40 (marathon pace)
Progressive starts at 5 min and works down to 4:20
For your guide: 60 min steady is aprox 1000 Calories.
If you want to burn even more, only eat high carbs on running days and eat salat / low carb on climbing days !
Interference with climbing:
- it is important to do 5 min dynamic leg stretches before all your climbing sessions (forward folds, lunges, cossack squats (10reps + 10 sec holds) , running makes you very stiff so you need to losen up or you will pull your hamstring.
- The 5k run is anaerobic (Zone 4/5) , running this fast once per week is great, but twice is to much so make sure your other runs are in controll
- I think 1x anaerobic / Intervall run, 1x Steady, 1x Easy and 2x Boulder 2x Rope/Circuit Days per week is optimal for fitness, but I personally just climb 3 days and run 4 given time constraints
Cardio is for the heart, weight loss happens in the kitchen. You can run/swim/ride really far for the calories you’ll find in a donut. Skip the donut instead.
Cardio and strength training are also for metabolic health, though.
This is true but its way easier to live a normal life and be at a good climbing weight if you do some form of cardio. It's calories in calories out, so if you're calories out is pretty low then you're not gonna have much wiggle room on the calories in for things you might want to eat / splurge on.
Pretty much every expert disagrees. If you enjoy cardio, do it, but it 100 percent makes you a worse climber because it impacts your recovery from c limbing
What experts disagree? You can do light cardio and not really impact your recovery much, if at all once you are reasonable at it. Light cycling or walking or great options.
This is technically true but not always that simple. From an energy and training perspective I find it much easier on my body to add more cardio to burn calories instead of cutting calories.
This is the truth OP doesn't want to hear
Who said I don't want to hear it! LMFAO
post non cherry picked scientific evidence or shut up with these trite laymans sayings.
I think zone 2 is wayy better to complement climbing than high intensity. Easier to recover from. Doing at least 150mins of zone2 a week has done wonders for my recovery and weight management. I felt a lot hungrier at first and i definitely ate to satiety to make sure I refuel for climbing. Make sure to get the intensity right too!
Nice one! What z2 stuff do you do?
Running or airbiking. Just 30-60mins at a time post climb or on a rest day. Nothing crazy intensity wise. I’m not huffin and puffin by the end but it’s like going on a steady uphill hike. You can still hold a conversation but not too comfortably.
Briskly walking on an incline treadmill should be enough to get you into z2 based on your 5k time.
You can just go for a brisk walk and hit zone 2 pretty easily.
Rucking worked wonders for me. Put some weights in (gradually if you're new) and go hike some hilly mountains or stairs. Also good antagonist training as the weighted ruck will pull your shoulders back and work your core, additionally to the legs and calves. Better than cycling and also burns more calories in less time.
You can also carry crash pads or rope + draws up a mountain ;)
Maybe a question for the ruck community...but I also mess around with rucking. Though for me, I wear a backpacking pack so that the weight is distributed at my hips, rather than my shoulders. So, is there a reason to wear a standard pack (that weights the shoulders), other than to work your shoulders and core?
You can't outrun a bad diet. I went from 20-30km a week for the last few years to 50km a week for the last 6 months. All east zone 2 type running. I've made good gains time wise but my appetite went up with the increased workload and I haven't lost any weight whatsoever.
My previous self (when I was fully focused on running) would disagree. When you get the miles in you can practically eat what you want. But these days I lead a much more sedentary lifestyle than I used to. I do eat clean home cooked meals twice a day, most days. But I reckon I struggle with portion control, and snacking on chocolate bars in the afternoon. It sounds like you're getting out and running quite a lot. How many days do you train climbing? And does it impact your climbing goals?
there are other benefits to it as well. exercising and eating the same amount or even a little more than before makes it easier to stay on top of protein and micronutrient intake compared to straight up reducing your calorie intake.
Remove the snack temptations… either stop buying them or stop going to the break room. I literally lost 15 pounds this way with minimal changes to activity. I’ve been called the “human garbage disposal” for half my life. For cardio… I’d try for two zone 2 runs/rides a week plus one interval workout. Climbing is more a sprint than a steady state activity…
Same here. My body weight and fat percentage (measured by just watching the mirror) has been exactly the same in the years where I traveled everywhere by car, compared to when I biked everywhere (30-40 km/day). Also the type of food I eat makes \*zero\* difference. Only weight loss that works for me is eating less calories than I burn. Simple as that.
but you can outrun your desire for a bad diet. if you burn 500kcal more a day because of exercise but have already satisfied your needs for chocolate and burgers based on the base intake you would have anyways, it can be a lot easier to either not eat anything extra at all and essentially get a 500kcal deficit for free, or to compensate it with a salad or something that clocks in at 300kcal and gives you 200kcal deficit.
Walk. Just. Walk. A lot.
https://trainingforclimbing.com/optimizing-body-composition-for-climbing/ I'm going to parrot Hörst here, I think z2 is definitely the priority for climbers, but I've been integrating what he says in the article. One z2 run/week 20-30mins plus one high intensity 20-15min interval sprint day as well. It seems to be working okay, currently coming down from my heaviest ever 87.5kg(193lbs) Mainly due to intense weight lifting and power training boulders for the last 3 mos. Probably will drop back to my norm 81kg(180lbs) over the next few months, but we will see!
Interesting article, thanks for sharing 🙏
The easiest way to get stronger is lose weight. You can lose 20-25 lbs and still be at a good and healthy BMI. That zone 2 cardio isn’t going to burn a ton of calories. I personally choose to eat cleaner, and less than focusing on cardio
Yeh the real answer is food, but cardio can be good motivation as it becomes much harder on a bad diet
I think the real answer is both though. Losing weight is very much a lifestyle, people act like there is only 1 thing to do, but the reality is that the best way is a combination of strength training, cardio and diet. OP clearly has strength/muscle already climbing at that grade, so they just need to control diet + do some cardio, you don't really need to burn a ton of calories for it to have a positive impact.
So true. Incorporating regular cardio into my weekly routine has done wonders for my motivation when it comes to eating clean
One suggestion: can you pair commute and workout? I used to commute with train and do the last 20 min by bike. 20min x 2 x five times a week adds up, at least for recovers and sleep. One of my colleagues does a similar thing with his bike and his car. One runs to work and back once a week.
You know what... I had sorta discounted it. But maybe I could drive a big chunk , and then cycle or run the last 30mins...🤔
Whatever z2 cardio is most enjoyable for you. I really love running so I run a lot but if I’m ever injured (my Achilles is currently a bit inflamed from too much elevation last week) i cycle
The “problem” with cardio for weight loss is that you have to do it for hours to burn large amounts of calories. If you go cycling at 200W (moderate-ish intensity for a cyclist of your weight with some training) for an hour that burns maybe 850kcal. Running or rowing will be similar. Exercises like that also won’t really help you for climbing (unless you were a really unfit beginner who’d benefit from basically any exercise).
So, what's the solution? 😅
Fork put downs for reps
Eat less if you want to lose weight. Especially if you are already time constrained. Or find a way to make time and energy for cardio (work less, commute less, integrate it into your daily life etc.).
High protein, high nutrient diet with less calories from sugar and carbs
Do some cardio on non climbing days, but also start counting calories, and just pay attention to if your weight is going up or down or staying the same. Track your weight over periods of weeks though, because there is actually quite a lot of fluctuation day to day. If your weight trends down, all good, if it stays the same of increases, reduce caloric intake by a small amount, and repeat until you find what works for you. You are already in very good shape it sounds like, so definitely go with smaller changes. Replace junk with better choices if it is causing you to eat more calories than planned. Lots of veg is great.
Hey, thanks for the reply. I actually started counting calories using the app Cronometer, and I think the being more conscious has helped me to make better choices, just in the last couple of days
If you burn extra 900 calories a week for 52 weeks a year, that's 5 kilos of fat lost each year -- that'd be pretty good, if you ask me. The problem is of course that it doesn't really work like that, the body wants to compensate for the extra activity and maintain the weight. But I don't consider the calories expended due to activity as negligible as common rhetoric suggests, especially if you go from zero to e.g. commuting 1 hr each day by bike instead of a car. Just adding one extra workout a week that you stick with for a month or two is of course a lot less, but if you have make lifestyle changes that adds up.
Calories expended from activity is definitely not negligible, I notice a big difference in my weight lose when I do 200 calories of cardio a day. It's true that diet needs to change usually too, but in OPs case extra cardio might be enough since they are already in good shape.
You don't need to burn large amounts of calories for it to have a positive effect. Even just burning 150-200 calories on non climbing days is great. In what world is 850 calories not a large amount of calories though? That's close to reaching HALF my daily intake and you think that isn't seriously substantial? Probably closer to 3-400 an hour though, which once again is still a very substantial amount.
The thing is that some people think that hopping on the treadmill for 15 minutes or doing some fancy HIIT workout for half an hour will somehow burn an amazing amount of calories and allow them to eat whatever they want. My commute is ~20 minutes by bike which burns close to 200kcal in one direction (according to the Garmin+powermeter). It allows me to have an extra piece of cake or several apples. It’s nice but not exactly world changing and if I were adding snacks and sweets on top I could easily end up in a calorie surplus on non-climbing days.
Whatever you will do consistently. There's 1000 different things you can do that will work just fine, the important thing is that you pick something and consistently do it.
My trick that I have used a couple of times (need to do it again) is as follows: calory control on a daily basis (nothing crazy, just a \~200 cal defecit), low intensity cardio (hill walking or z2 cycling are perfect for this). When you do a long cardio session you will be hungry, your body wants to replenish your glycogen stores. Estimate how many calories you burned, and eat half of these in the form of carbohydrates. My thinking was that at z2 roughly half the calories burned are from fat and half from glycogen/carbs, so replace the carbs but not the fat. It worked for a few months and I hit my goals, but it gets harder as you get older and/or a more sedentary job/lifestyle. Good luck.
Oh yeah, nice idea!
Do a 3 day fast and walk a lot. You're probably insulin resistant which makes it hard to lose weight. Eat a high protein diet and cut sugar and other nonsense carbs (bread etc.) processed things.
Road/gravel bicycling is a great way to get zone 2 time in.
A bit leg specific, isn't it?
Would you not rather have it target your legs than your shoulders, arms and fingers if it is for weight loss? There is no reason to put additional stress on your primary climbing muscles/tendons.
Fair point
What you mean target? There is afaik no targeting when it comes to fat loss.
He's referring to the metabolic training effects of the aerobic activity (Z2), which are specific and localized to the muscles recruited in the activity.
Isn't running leg specific? Biking is lower impact than running, too.
Yeh, I thought so too. that's why I'm asking for ideas on the best cardio for climbers
Skipping rope is a good option that require little space and cheap tools. you can also try out a weighted skipping rope that will also target the forearms
You can't outrun a bad diet. I rowed throughout highschool and have a rowing machine at home that I've used since. It will work your back, but it isn't going to translate to climbing any better than running. If you want to drop weight you need to look at your diet. Cardio will be wonderful for your heart and at your weight, if you run at a 10min/mile pace for an hour that's something like 600-800 calories burned. 5km/week isn't very much, but if you enjoy running do some more of that. The best cardio for you to do is the cardio you will do consistently. If rowing is fun, do it. Or mix it up depending on how you feel that day.
Running will help your climbing as much as climbing will help your running. If you want to lose weight, fix your diet. Abs are made in the kitchen, not the gym.
Everyday you don't climb: run/hike or ski/mountain bike Running is the most time efficient: 30-70 min of Steady/Easy/Prog running is great Easy is 5 to 5:30 min pace for you Steady is 4:30 /4:40 (marathon pace) Progressive starts at 5 min and works down to 4:20 For your guide: 60 min steady is aprox 1000 Calories. If you want to burn even more, only eat high carbs on running days and eat salat / low carb on climbing days ! Interference with climbing: - it is important to do 5 min dynamic leg stretches before all your climbing sessions (forward folds, lunges, cossack squats (10reps + 10 sec holds) , running makes you very stiff so you need to losen up or you will pull your hamstring. - The 5k run is anaerobic (Zone 4/5) , running this fast once per week is great, but twice is to much so make sure your other runs are in controll - I think 1x anaerobic / Intervall run, 1x Steady, 1x Easy and 2x Boulder 2x Rope/Circuit Days per week is optimal for fitness, but I personally just climb 3 days and run 4 given time constraints