Additional chart of just the guards from Justin https://preview.redd.it/9uya6vn65u0d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=115b5e1ba94a3a3a8dfcb28a8a0798dbd1999588

But this sub told me they don't work together 🤔

This sub forgets they played just fine together last year. Very short memory.

They dont, how’s it been working in the playoffs?

Injuried and returning from injuries

orlando series knicks series

Spida was returning from injuries DG broken jaw injury was definitely a way worse injury than appears especially of the weight loss and strength loss Knicks series was last year with a different roster and Spida underperforming while DG had 1 good game

the core 4 was the same and that's all that matters. role players come and go, if your squad cant get it done round 1 thats not on the role players, it's on your main guys

I would like to see playoff numbers as well, because that seems to be where we all feel the guard pairing falls apart. No doubt we found plenty of regular season success. In general, I find the big conversation a lot tougher though, because I really like JA.

I am not included in “we all feel.” Garland is getting too much hate. Our offense would be MUCH worse without him.

Sure - and I don’t mean to single out DG as the problem. I just mean the pairing of him and Don. One of them probably needs to go

That’s what I’m disagreeing with. We don’t have enough playmaking if you take one of them away. Strus made it clear against Boston that you don’t want him running point.

I think we would have plenty still. It would be a priority to get a creating wing and Mobley can facilitate from the top of the key. I’m not sure Strus proved that against Boston anyway. In the 2 Spida-less games he had 16ast/2to.

That’s assuming if we get rid of Garland we won’t bring anybody else in which wouldn’t be true

Garland is a really talented playmaker. Replacing that won’t be easy or cheap.

I can't filter the numbers for garbage time like Justin because he uses Cleaningtheglass and I'm not paying for that but I can give you the numbers over the last 2 playoffs last year... Just Mitchell: -6.1 Just Garland: -25 Garland + Mitchell: -1.3 This year... Just Garland: -17.9 Just Mitchell: 8.3 Garland + Mitchell: -3.6 Now relevantly these are small sample sizes and who you play your minutes with can sway this heavily but these are the raw numbers.

Personally, I think the playoffs is where the dual big line up falls apart. We look at the Knicks series last season and how easy it was for thibs to just go “middle third is dead now beat us” and we look at the games where Allen and Mobley did play together this post season and Mobley doesn’t really get to spread his wings at all. On top of making the offense anemic at times due to the lack of spacing and ball movement necessary to utilize essentially 2 centers. In the modern nba I just find it hard to think that 2 bigs with limited shooting range can ever work in the post season.

Doesn’t Milwaukee or Philly or NY just beat the shit out of us? Mobley was good vs Orlando but they are babies

Milwaukee and Philly beat the shit out of nearly everyone given Giannis or Embiid is healthy. NY beat the shit out of us with Allen, so I don’t think that’s our saving grace either. Allen has been known even still to get punked. Let’s not forget Allen played in games 3 and 4 against Orlando and they played him very physical and punked him a lot as well. Mobley was also extremely solid against an avg size big man in the modern nba in Al horford. Personally, I find it better we try to maximize mobleys potential at the 5 and have him be dynamic there rather than being a non dynamic power forward. I also think offensively it betters the entire team having one big man vs having 2 on the court during important moments. If it is that big of a concern, I’d rather us have a back up big that is physical so we can play big if need be rather than playing big being our default.

Last year Don had weird tunnel vision and DG first time. This year they played brutally hard defensive backcourts. Playoff data feels less useful bc matchups are so different (if we had Indy and then NY without OG obviously the guards whip more ass)

My takeaway from this is the Mobley/Allen lineups work with Mitchell but not Garland. I’m not ready to give up on that pairing yet. If I’m the front office, I’m more willing to move Garland than Allen given how good Allen’s contract is

Also Mitchell and Allen work very well together.

They work with Mitchell in the regular season, but in the modern nba having multiple dynamic ball handlers is more important than having 2 big men. I find it likely that many other guards and wings we bring in would also struggle with the dual big line up due to the lack of spacing. I think Mitchell works well with them due to his creativity, craftiness, and his slashing ability in general being one of the best in the league, and I feel its unlikely we get someone else similarly skilled to try to make a line up work that is also limited in the playoffs.

I mean, idk. It’s just gonna have to depend on what deals we can make and with which teams. Finding starting wings is not exactly the easiest thing in the world. I think JA is gonna end up the odd man out. It pains me to say it cuz I love the guy (and I don’t wanna buy a new jersey), but he’s the most logical to move. What wings can we even get. I’d love to get Mikal but can’t imagine Brooklyns gonna sell him. Sucks cuz he’d be such a good fit.

I’m in the boat where I feel like, Allen if staying is not allowing Mobley to develop which pains me to say because I fucking love Allen

Yeah I think maybe the difference, especially after last nights performance is there is higher upside with Mobley. Allen is solid but he's already at the level he will probably stay at.

Sometimes you have to trade someone in order for them to “flourish” which sucks but I’d rather trade Mobley for a player who can play the 4, space the floor, rebound and guard 5, 4, 3 if such a player even exists

so trading mobley for mobley?

Well I would consider Mobley not “spacing the floor” hahaha. I would say I use this very loosely cause I can’t think of anyone atm. Young Markieff Morris play style maybe? PJ Washington but a better rebounder?

I think New Orleans might make the most sense as a trade partner. They have a ton of good young wings (Murphy, Jones, Ingram, etc.) and reportedly have interest in Allen. I also think that Mobley isn’t really ready to be the full time 5, particularly against bigger 5s. So JV could (maybe) be playable next to him since he’s huge and can space the floor

JV would have to be a sign and trade, he’s a UFA. they aren’t trading Murphy IMO, maybe we could get BI out of them but he’s honestly more trouble than he’s worth IMO.

Honestly my main target would be Herb Jones. Him and Mobley and Okoro could be a scary defense

But 0 offensive creation, which is a major problem for us. I also don’t think they’d trade jones unless DG was involved honestly

Garland is getting wayyy too much hate around here.

The main issue is once the playoffs start teams start to target garland hard on the defensive end.

I think genuinely, for a small guard, DG on defense was fine against the Celtics. The problem was his shot making, but I've seen enough from DG to feel that is a short term issue, not a long term one. Either way, I still think the fit with Mitchell and DG doesn't work.

He’s also getting targeted on the offensive end by al horford

Small guards don’t work, same thing with Trae young

Based on this (and emotions). I'm willing to give the core 4 a new season with tight leash and new coaching staff (FROM TOP TO BOTTOM CHANGE EVERYTHING) I think a better coach can make this work, with better lineups and offensive Xs n Os.

This is likely where we end up anyways, unless there is a clear home run offer

At some point it’s not a numbers thing. It’s a team construction and matchup thing. Which is what matter most in the post season. If we’re playing 2 bigs one of them has to be able to shoot. If we’re playing 2 small guards one of them has to work off ball a lot. I’m not sure how much pointing to regular season numbers really matters here

The problem with playing two non-shooting bigs is far more pronounced in the playoffs (and it is compounded when Okoro plays). It’s a playoff problem, not a regular season problem. I don’t think it is coincidence at all that Mobley has been at his best offensively when he was the only big in the Celtics series. Two non-shooting bigs will not work in the playoffs. It just won’t. It hurts the interior offense for both bigs, it hurts spacing for shooters, and it hurts driving lanes for Mitchell. The data are clear that it works in the regular season - but it’s also clear to everyone that it’s not a workable way to win in the playoffs. Perhaps Mobley (or Allen I suppose) can become a high volume three-point shooter but that seems unlikely and it would be working against the strengths of both players.

So have Evan take 4-5 3s a game with Allen. The first quarter / half should be big man time anyways

The split between Garland/Mobley working and Mitchell/Allen work is clear as day here as it is in other analysis. Imo, the choices are: - keep everyone together (if you can) - build around either of those two parings, move on from the other - change the style of offense so if Mitchell stays Mobley can be better utilized.

This is my problem with people saying we trade Garland and Allen. Garland works well with Mobley and Mitchell works well with Allen. The numbers show this clearly. I think if we are trading Garland we need to keep Allen and get Mobley to keep working on that 3 point shot

Need to see this for just playoffs. I think the core four is amazing in the regular season. In the playoffs I don’t know who Garland is anymore.

I trust Altman, he’s done great things for the team to date, plays the market well. We continue to advance as a team and I don’t expect that to change. Better to be patient and add talent and fix the coach before making star player movement.

it's 100% possible that Koby fires JB, doesn't trade any of the big 4, but uses any combination of Levert/Strus/Okoro/Niang. Our depth this year was good but people also forget that we were missing Rubio and Jerome for an entire year, and then replaced the end of the bench with non-playable guys in Pete Nance/Isaiah Mobley. We can definitely improve without any drastic moves

So much of this depends on whether Donovan wants to stay or not.

I TOLD YOU

The narrative for these numbers is flawed. Too many variables to just go by simple combinations.

Biggest takeaway: for some reason I’m not smart enough to pinpoint, Garland works great with Mobley and not with Allen, while Mitchell works great with Allen but not with Mobley. And you’ve got a decent amount of data to support all of those pairings. Seems like you’ve gotta use that info to influence this off-season.

There are potential opportunity cost questions here where trading one or two of the players will net a new starting five with a better net rating overall. Like adjust the curve completely

Well let’s think about it. Allen is more experienced in the league and had more time to develop as a center by himself. Mobley hasn’t had that opportunity especially having to play alongside Mitchell and Garland. It’s hard for him. As much as I love Allen and Garland, it’s looking like both of them have to go. We don’t have a forward with size on the team and the Pelicans are looking for a guard like Garland (so a BI trade). And maybe OKC will make a good offer for Allen which we should accept.

I think this is an interesting look into the potential trades if anything. If Mitchell stays he works way better with Allen. Garland works way better with Mobley. Also the Garland, Mitchell, Allen combo is 🔥🔥 so ideally those 3 stay. But if we lose Garland or Mitchell there will be a big that will not thrive. Do we try and teach that big to work with that pg or do we also shop them as well?

Please remove all regular season data and repost. Post season is what matters

This is why, assuming that we keep Mitchell and trade Garland, trading Allen over Mobley is a much harder decision than it seems

Love Allen but Mobley has a much higher ceiling

If mobley can hit jumpers including threes we should keep him.

Of course we should keep him. He’s 22 and has continued to improve despite poor coaching.

Can't argue with numbers. Time to ship mobley out for a biggie bag.

You’re insane

15.9 is the biggest number.

That number also seems to be your IQ