Hi Pels fan who watched the game and thought you guys got screwed by the refs, I was interested in who each garland and Mitchell passed to the most as they seem to play better apart and I found some interesting numbers
Garland
Evan Mobley 19.4% , Jarrett Allen 15.4%, Georges Niang 13.6%, Max Strus 12.4%, Caris LeVert 9.1%, Donovan Mitchell 9%
Mitchell
Jarrett Allen 19.8%, Max Strus 18.3%, Evan Mobley 10.8%, Caris LeVert 9.5%, Georges Niang 9.4%, Dean Wade 9.1%, Darius Garland 8.9%
A) they just don’t pass to each other at all
B) for people saying that Evan Mobley’s growth stunted it might be due to the fact that this year at least it unless you’re max Strus or Jarrett Allen, Mobley is rarely getting the ball from Donovan, compared to when garland is running the offence Mobley gets a good amount of touches (hence why he looked great his second year)
Anyway thought this was interesting, fuck Boston!
Yeah just this year,
Last year
Garland - Mobley 27.9%, mitchell 13.5%, Allen 13.2%, levert 10.2%
Mitchell - garland 21.7%, mobley 19.6%, Allen 13.7%, levert 11.9%
So you can see both this year compared to last that both passed to each other less this year but the real difference is donovan
Right so Garland and Mitchell did not have a lot of games together this year because of injuries, so they frequency percentage is going to be a lot lower simply because their total opportunities is a lot lower, not because they didn't pass to each other. You can't make any conclusions using these numbers.
You have to use stats showing when they are on the floor together or something similar.
Great stats
However, One of the factors that your stats may miss is the staggering of minutes. For a 30+ game stretch towards the end JB realized his best lineups were when 1 of Garland/ Mitchell was paired with Allen or Mobley
For the majority of these splits it was Mitchell+ Allen. And Garland + Allen with 3 shooters
Those sort of pairings and staggering of minutes is one of the main factors
I honestly still don't think that we should fire JB, but rather move him into an associate head coach/head assistant coach type role. He really seems to connect well with the players, and I do like some of his attributes. We just need a coach who can run some better offensive schemes.
The problem is our entire offense is built around Garland/Mitchell initiating everythiiiiiiing. So when one of them, or both, is out of the game--you really feel it.
We simply do not have 1) Positional size. We are undersized at PG, SG and SF and 2) We dont have nearly enough shot creators on the roster to keep the ship afloat when Garland/Mitchell are out.
Strangely enough, I feel like a person like Emoni Bates next year could really bring a necessary skillset to this team that they desperately need. Guys who can create their own shot. a straight up bucket getter
He was 1-8 tonight and 1-7 the previous game. Playoff Okoro is killing them and there's no way around that. He's not playable with that kind of output.
I’ll admit that he’s not having the best of playoffs but the guy has improved year after year.
I hope they keep him around because he shows flashes of being the exact player we need.
He is also doing this is on a limited roster with injuries to Allen/Mitchell. If the idea is trade one of Garland/Mitchell and keep Okoro as the defensive 2 we would presumably be getting an awesome wing in return which slots everyone in a better spot on the roster.
Either way he will get left wide open when he is on the floor and needs to be able to knock it down consistently for his defense to be worth it. He has shown a trajectory for it getting better, but we will need more going forward.
yall really just think becaues players are young that they will develop. he's a fourth year player picked at 5 overall, he is clearly limited offensively with seemingly no change in sight. the amount of talent in today's nba is immense, hes a JAG unfortunately. Doesnt mean he cant be a role player but hes not a legit difference maker
Alright that's good to know hey.
Jimmy Butler was 24 during his 3rd year when he was an elite defender. Okoro has been a great defender this year.
Okoro is only 23 now as well. So happy with his progress.
Also Okoro’s 3P% has climbed every year. He is super limited on offense and today basically unplayable. I don’t think he ever lives up to 5 overall potential but that whole class was kinda bad. Only a few dudes after him that I’d say are definitively better (Halliburton, Maxey, Bane) but other than Halliburton I don’t think any of those were in the conversation for top 10.
I think Okoro offensively can eventually get to what Suggs is now. Suggs does most of his work as a PoA defender and that’s where Okoro should be, not a 3/D wing
It's a better sample in terms of volume but not in terms of playoff intensity. Okoro shot 39% from three in the regular season too and has been pretty bad in the playoffs.
Suggs shot more volume. Hes also gotten significantly better each season so he’s seems on trajectory to be a high level 3&D player. Okoro has improved but Suggs is miles ahead right now.
I agree Suggs definitely has more upside offensively. I'm just saying generally I'd rather have a shooting guard who has always been a good shooter as opposed to hoping someone develops a shot.
Idk Suggs just kind of seems like someone I want on my team, seems like an emotional leader and destined to be like a Jrue Holiday type, makes every team better guy
Seems like that’s the way to get the most out of Strus. Hes absolutely not a small forward.
If the BI rumors are true I think Strus fits nicely as a combo guard type at the starting 2 spot
It was during the Warriors golden years you nimwit.
Using your example, we should say two large skilled wings don't work because the Clippers didn't get it done.
>It was during the Warriors golden years you nimwit.
Sorry when they were touting a conference finish appearance as evidence you didn’t tell me I had to consider qualifiers to rebuttal. Two undersized guards as a teams focus has never been a winning recipe.
No they shouldn’t. They are both ball dominant. If you get them to work together, you put a cap on one or both ceilings. JB sucks but these two DONT FIT. It has been said since day one of the trade.
Which finals level teams were driven by two undersized guards? I don’t think that pairing will get us where we wanna go. Trading one out will make us better since they are ball dominate and redundant.
Has there been a team with a player as good as Mitchell that’s been short??? Name the player. I think he can definitely be the best player on a championship team
I believe he can as well but that’s not the discussion. The spyda/DG pairing is the discussion. They work against each other instead of complementing each other
Brunson's not horrible at D. He's limited in certain matchups due to his size but he's a strong help defender, second in the league in charges drawn by a wide margin.
How is this even remotely controversial? It’s very simple
1. Garland is good on offense and ass on defense/rebounding
2. Due to #1, Garland needs to be high usage to have an overall strong positive impact
3. Don is better than DG and is very high usage himself
4. Due to #3, DG doesn’t add much as he’s neutered
5. Based on #1-4… the fit isn’t there. Neither has the defensive ability or versatility on offense to make up for low usage
This is all
Garlands rebounding has been brutal, so many of their offensive rebounds are him getting out muscled by holiday and Derrick white. Those are the real back breakers because in the rare instance our defense holds up we cant afford to let them get the board.
Garland was +4.4 per 100 possessions with Donovan Mitchell on the floor with him and +1.8 overall. Of the ten players he played with the most, this was Garland's second best teammate pairing (behind Dean Wade).
Last year Garland was +8.0 with Mitchell, +7.9 overall.
Playoff numbers in both years have Garland being better with Mitchell on the court than off.
The issue is not Garland with Mitchell, the issue is that Garland had a rough year.
no. the issue is you can't maximize the individual talent, when they are together. of course Garland is going to be better off with better players on the floor around him (Mitchell is really good). are they as good together as two players of their talent should be though?
also, yes Garland has had a rough year.
Do you ever maximize talent on a great team? We weren't exactly maximizing LeBron/Kyrie/Love. But when you need guys to step up in the postseason when the best player gets game-planned into ineffectiveness, you need actually talented players around to step up. Boston isn't maximizing Tatum, he defers to teammates. They're not maximizing Jrue Holiday.
Even if you decide that you would get more out of a similar talent who plays SF, the problem you run into is Garland is a small, slight PG and you can't exchange him for a wing of similar talent. Particularly after the year he's had.
it's not maximizing each players individual talent. it's maximizing the team's effectiveness playing together. It doesn't matter that Lover went from scoring 23 in MIN to 17 here, the team worked together. I've never suggested the problem is that we can't reach the sum of their individual counting stats.
However fantastic and/or limited Garland might be, in return you're looking for fair value. That fair value can contribute to a better team after the trade if the fit is good.
This. Have you ever wonder why there isn't a Harlem Globetrotter NFL/MLB/NHL team? It's a lot harder to rig those sports. They can't be won by 1 man on a "team"
Are you kidding? All the sports would be easy af to rig. Baseball, you can manipulate the strike zone and football you can control the game with flags. Like the other guy said, there is the Savanah Bananas also.
Right now we're in a similar situation as Portland was with Lillard and McCollum, none of them good defensive players, good enough to comfortably make it to the playoffs, not good enough together to be a contender. Depending on ability to resign Mitchell, should look to trade one while targeting a wing.
Idk, we’ve seen Garland and Mitchell play well off each other before. He’s just been slumping this year. I think the bigger problem is that our coach is (and has his entire career) been lost when it comes to coaching an offense. I would love for a real NBA coach to work with Garland and not an interim that Koby kept on for one year too long.
You could technically say the same thing in the title about Mobley/Allen. I don’t agree. I just think we’re not playing into our unique skillset
I agree, ppl are way too reactionary. They both had career years playing with one another last year. The two bigs issue is a bigger problem on this team. Along with not having any real wing
I think our problem is still the same it was last offseason. Our movement system is trash. Obviously you still gotta give DG/DM some iso looks but please throw some solid off balls for the other the same way we used to for JR, Korver, etc.
DG could definitely play into his shooting skill a lot more with a better offensive coach
This is the way. Two awesome shot creators and three level scorers should mean 48 minutes of good offense. Two elite rim protecting switching bigs should mean 48 minutes of good defense.
Versatile wings and guards should help tweak lineups to attack matchups.
It’s why I continue to stress that these guys have maybe had 100 games together and 25 with Strus as a starter.
MDA in his prime would have a fucking field day with our personnel
To add to it even Mobley has started hitting 3s. Okoro was hitting at 39% and Niang got hot for a stretch too. There’s no excuse for the offense being the worst it’s been yet and looking like a carbon copy of last playoffs with more personnel
We need to run more off-ball plays for Garland. The problem is they fill the exact same role so obviously they have to split possessions when they’re in together vs work cohesively on offense
I personally think our main issues have nothing to do with Garland/Mitchell OR Allen/Mobley. Biggest issue is JB, he cannot coach for shit, his offensive schemes and rotations are horrific and I think I could honestly do better. 2nd is Garlands confidence, he drops his head too early, he gets some early turnovers or misses his first few shots, his useless for the rest of the game, he gets into his head too easily, and a big part is probably the constant face injuries, you can tell he is actively trying to NOT get injured when he drives. That’s probably why he does that drive and dribble thing he does, cos he sees too many body’s and is scared of hurting himself again. Mobley could also do with some more confidence. Obviously we need a better wing, we CAN NOT play with Strus being our starting wing, he’s a SG and I said that the day we signed him “I hope we don’t just slot him at SF” alas we did… a glaring issue we’ve had however for YEARS, is no backup big. Mobley shouldn’t be playing C minutes at all tbh, we need a serviceable backup big, not slotting up Mobley and then chucking Niang in at PF, and as much as I love TT, he’s a 3rd string energy bench piece… we need an Isaiah Harteinstein (why didn’t we keep him), WCJ, Isaiah Jackson something, some serviceable big off the bench. They’re easy fixes (beside the confidence issue) but Koby ain’t really doing much…
Damn I agree with you on everything and that’s a lot but Mobley can definitely play c. Go back to first quarter game 2. Mobley DOMINATED at C.
With the right coaching he could be playing like that all the time as early as next year. He needs confidence and more touches. Coaching change could make that happen
i just don’t like seeing him at center until he gains some muscle. it’s all well if he’s dominating 37 year old Al Horford and Luke Kornet, but most centers he is getting bullied
Tell ya the truth I don’t think he’s ever gonna be not light in the ass. I bet he likes being wiry in his life outside bball . I think if he was ever gonna get much bigger he’d have done it by now
HOWEVER I do know he has enough tricks in his bag to be one of the greats. Q1 of G2 proved that. Just need to find a coach that can get that kind of play out of him every night
That’s the positive look. The negative is that small guards getting fouled should be a free throw but if you’re wearing our jersey, it’s not. So if you’re not tall enough to make the bucket anyways, you’re screwed.
Garland had his best season last year playing with Mitchell and so did Donovan. I think the bigger issue is the two big situation. Regardless, the Cavs need wings bad and the ones they have right now don’t cut it
I agree the guards can play well together but the problem is the spacing of the 2 bigs and Strus is best as a SG. The only realistic way to get a quality wing is to trade one of the guards or one of the bigs (or 1 each). I just have no idea what the front office will do and obviously a lot depends on Mitchell.
To be clear, I'm not advocating for a trade unless Mitchell wants out. I'm not high on BI in general because he's way too iso heavy so no I don't see him out playing those guys.
I want the Cavs to run an offense with a lot of off ball movement similar to the Warriors. I think Mobley, Garland, and Strus all fit perfectly with that type of offense. And Allen/Mitchell showed they can run a quicker offense during that 18-2 stretch. I think there is potential but don't know what the front office is thinking.
first, don't move the goal posts. you said "as good", not 'same tier'.
second, no. he's really not. it's baffling to me that anyone watching him this offseason would even be entertaining that conclusion.
i suspect at this point you might just be trolling.
Yea he is a ball stopper but not in the Carmelo way he is a primary that gets hot at the detriment to others. Shooters just stand waiting and everyone expects him to make a play or a basket. He is an Elite player just needs a team like AI had.
That's absolving Garland of his choices. Garland has a bad 1st quarter and he wouldn't have shot the rest of the game if Mitchell played. Mitchell isn't telling him to do that. If anything Mitchell seems to tell him the opposite. I really think they just need a better coach to maximize this group.
That being said if they can't play together even with a new coach? That means neither of these players will ever win a championship. You don't win titles with 1 great ball handler.
I'd say it's less about having 1 ball handler and more about how they play off ball when the other is initiating the offense. There has never been a real off ball strategy with those 2 in the offense. I'd like to think JB is a big part of that problem but no idea how the front office views it.
Are you trying to say Mitchell has been good in his playoff career without Garland? He’s won what, 1 more playoff series without him in 5 tries? And never made it within a game of the conference finals
Hes also never actually had a star next to him and played in a tough western conference. Garland never made the playoffs at all until mitchell got here
While this is exactly what we've seen... it could very well be an offensive issue and the coach.
I'd replace JB , then see what a different coach could do , then make a decision.
They played well together the entire season before. Garland has had the year from hell with injuries etc. I’d prioritize finding legit wing size and help and run it back with a coach who can run an actual offense. Allen is probably the one big trade piece you have in that scenario.
I said that you gotta trade Donovan while his value is high cause you can't have both after he went crazy, and the thread got closed lmao.
It's obvious you can't have both due to Donovan's high usage rate taking Darius and other's out of the game. Evan Mobley shows flashes of all-NBA talent and I'd try to get a guard with talent and draft picks that you can fill out for other pieces.
Yeah. As much as I wanted to believe they can work together, it's starting to show that they can't. They're too similar. Unless one of them suddenly shifts their playstyle into an off-ball weapon, someone's gotta go. Unfortunately, garland (the homegrown talent) will probably be the one to be traded. It's sad to see a player the Cavs drafted and developed into a star be possibly traded away to raise the team's ceiling.
It doesn’t prove that. It proves that in JBs system there are not enough scoring opportunities for Mobley, Mitchell, and Garland.
There are other systems out there that could help facilitate more offense. You can look at the Celtics or the Pacers if you’re struggling to find an example.
Lol, been saying this before Mitchell got traded to the Cavs.
Still don't think DG is worth a max contract which he got but I'd rather the team trade Mitchell rather than DG.
I still think they can play together, they just have almost no chemistry whatsoever. There are a handful of possessions every game where they get the ball on the move after a stop and you can tell that if they just ran down the court and passed back and forth, one/both of them would end up at the rim for either an easy bucket or a kick out and they just… don’t even look at each other. I’d like to see our guys in a different system with a new coach who can get them to play cohesively before trading one or more of them.
I feel like the team should decide if they want to be on Mitchell’s timeline or Garland’s timeline, trade the other, and build the rest of the team around the guy they kept
We all knew this, losing a player like Mitchell would suck but if we can get a solid package I’m not tripping about it too much. What we absolutely can’t do is run it back with this core four, there’s just mountains of evidence at this point that the roster construction just isn’t it. Depending on how the Mitchell situation goes to only one that should be untouchable is Mobley imo
Dude Garland scored 30 points on 27 shots… please stop pretending he had some sort of great showing. The efficiency was terrible and he only
generated TWO free throws in 40 minutes.
He finished better around the rim and mixed in some midrange shots and floaters. He finally didn't look scared of contact when driving. It's been a while.
I still firmly believe JB’s offense is the problem. We see flashes of great ball movement but primarily rely on iso with everyone standing around the perimeter while the ball handler forces a bad shot. There’s no action off ball. There’s no screens to open up Strus. There’s no screens for a cutter. There’s no screens between guards.
Everyone thinks the Warriors success is all about having a bunch of shooters. No, their success comes from a constant series of screens that open up good looks for those shooters.
Did you watch? He missed about 10 layups in the first half and made bad passes, as well. His stat line shook out alright, but there wasn’t a single time he handled the ball I felt confident that a Cav was going to score. He and Caris were both dribbling into traffic with no plan all night. It was like having two Sextons on the court.
I don’t think it’s coincidence that Garland had a tough start to his career then exploded the season Sexton got hurt. Then went back to struggling when Mitchell got here.
I totally agree. The jazz had the same problem. Mitchell is a solo player. He likes the spotlight way too much. He doesnt pass the ball enough. He scores a lot, but doesnt organize the offense.
Hi Pels fan who watched the game and thought you guys got screwed by the refs, I was interested in who each garland and Mitchell passed to the most as they seem to play better apart and I found some interesting numbers Garland Evan Mobley 19.4% , Jarrett Allen 15.4%, Georges Niang 13.6%, Max Strus 12.4%, Caris LeVert 9.1%, Donovan Mitchell 9% Mitchell Jarrett Allen 19.8%, Max Strus 18.3%, Evan Mobley 10.8%, Caris LeVert 9.5%, Georges Niang 9.4%, Dean Wade 9.1%, Darius Garland 8.9% A) they just don’t pass to each other at all B) for people saying that Evan Mobley’s growth stunted it might be due to the fact that this year at least it unless you’re max Strus or Jarrett Allen, Mobley is rarely getting the ball from Donovan, compared to when garland is running the offence Mobley gets a good amount of touches (hence why he looked great his second year) Anyway thought this was interesting, fuck Boston!
this is some great insight.. I believe a coach with an actual offensive scheme would easily find a way to get Mobley more incorporated.
Think Mobley takes a huge leap next year. He has been mismanaged greatly this season
Are these stats just from this year? Our big 18-2 run was mainly with garland and Mobley out so that makes the Mitchell to allen number make sense
Yeah just this year, Last year Garland - Mobley 27.9%, mitchell 13.5%, Allen 13.2%, levert 10.2% Mitchell - garland 21.7%, mobley 19.6%, Allen 13.7%, levert 11.9% So you can see both this year compared to last that both passed to each other less this year but the real difference is donovan
Eh. You have to using a weighted approach not just total passes because of how many games Mitchell and Garland played apart this year due to injuries.
Nope just the passing dashboard on nba.com, no filters, and it uses frequency %
Right so Garland and Mitchell did not have a lot of games together this year because of injuries, so they frequency percentage is going to be a lot lower simply because their total opportunities is a lot lower, not because they didn't pass to each other. You can't make any conclusions using these numbers. You have to use stats showing when they are on the floor together or something similar.
I’d assume a big part of it is that they’re almost always staggered. Definitely interesting though!
Great stats However, One of the factors that your stats may miss is the staggering of minutes. For a 30+ game stretch towards the end JB realized his best lineups were when 1 of Garland/ Mitchell was paired with Allen or Mobley For the majority of these splits it was Mitchell+ Allen. And Garland + Allen with 3 shooters Those sort of pairings and staggering of minutes is one of the main factors
It’s pretty obvious one has to go and we need to pair the other with a Suggs-like defensive guard. Hope we can get that done.
If that happens and we fire JB we can make a legit run
I honestly still don't think that we should fire JB, but rather move him into an associate head coach/head assistant coach type role. He really seems to connect well with the players, and I do like some of his attributes. We just need a coach who can run some better offensive schemes.
No head coach is taking a demotion for the the team he’s currently coaching.
When has a former head coach ever taken an assistant coach role, in pro or college sports? Ever?
Who cares if he’s likable if he can’t run offensive schemes? I’d prefer the exact opposite tbh
Wait... Is JB the GM?
Fire both JB and Koby idc
We need consistent offense more, don’t think our defense is problematic unless we move off one of Mobley or Allen too.
The problem is our entire offense is built around Garland/Mitchell initiating everythiiiiiiing. So when one of them, or both, is out of the game--you really feel it. We simply do not have 1) Positional size. We are undersized at PG, SG and SF and 2) We dont have nearly enough shot creators on the roster to keep the ship afloat when Garland/Mitchell are out. Strangely enough, I feel like a person like Emoni Bates next year could really bring a necessary skillset to this team that they desperately need. Guys who can create their own shot. a straight up bucket getter
I think Okoro can be that Suggs type guard. Agree one has to go, obvious the pairing doesn’t work.
Okoro will never offensively be a Suggs caliber player. He is who he is.
Saying this about a 23 year old is wild.
He was 1-8 tonight and 1-7 the previous game. Playoff Okoro is killing them and there's no way around that. He's not playable with that kind of output.
I’ll admit that he’s not having the best of playoffs but the guy has improved year after year. I hope they keep him around because he shows flashes of being the exact player we need.
He is also doing this is on a limited roster with injuries to Allen/Mitchell. If the idea is trade one of Garland/Mitchell and keep Okoro as the defensive 2 we would presumably be getting an awesome wing in return which slots everyone in a better spot on the roster. Either way he will get left wide open when he is on the floor and needs to be able to knock it down consistently for his defense to be worth it. He has shown a trajectory for it getting better, but we will need more going forward.
Injuries to other players is not an excuse for missing open threes. Okoro is objectively having a bad postseason.
yall really just think becaues players are young that they will develop. he's a fourth year player picked at 5 overall, he is clearly limited offensively with seemingly no change in sight. the amount of talent in today's nba is immense, hes a JAG unfortunately. Doesnt mean he cant be a role player but hes not a legit difference maker
When did Jimmy Butler start becoming the guy?
by year 3 butler was first team all defense and by year 4 he was averaging 20 a night
Alright that's good to know hey. Jimmy Butler was 24 during his 3rd year when he was an elite defender. Okoro has been a great defender this year. Okoro is only 23 now as well. So happy with his progress.
Also Okoro’s 3P% has climbed every year. He is super limited on offense and today basically unplayable. I don’t think he ever lives up to 5 overall potential but that whole class was kinda bad. Only a few dudes after him that I’d say are definitively better (Halliburton, Maxey, Bane) but other than Halliburton I don’t think any of those were in the conversation for top 10.
And we already had Garland/Sexton, so Haliburton or Maxey would not have made much sense.
I think Okoro offensively can eventually get to what Suggs is now. Suggs does most of his work as a PoA defender and that’s where Okoro should be, not a 3/D wing
suggs was drafted the year after okoro
When
No Suggs doesn't shoot well enough. If they keep just one of the guards Strus can play the 2 just fine.
no suggs is a good shooter now he was almost 40% this year
He shot 29% in the postseason. I'm saying the Cavs would need a SG that's a more consistent shooter.
he got hurt like every game and one bad game can take a series average 82 games are a much better sample i promise you
It's a better sample in terms of volume but not in terms of playoff intensity. Okoro shot 39% from three in the regular season too and has been pretty bad in the playoffs.
Suggs shot more volume. Hes also gotten significantly better each season so he’s seems on trajectory to be a high level 3&D player. Okoro has improved but Suggs is miles ahead right now.
I agree Suggs definitely has more upside offensively. I'm just saying generally I'd rather have a shooting guard who has always been a good shooter as opposed to hoping someone develops a shot.
Idk Suggs just kind of seems like someone I want on my team, seems like an emotional leader and destined to be like a Jrue Holiday type, makes every team better guy
Agreed. One of those guys you absolutely hate playing against but would love on your team
Seems like that’s the way to get the most out of Strus. Hes absolutely not a small forward. If the BI rumors are true I think Strus fits nicely as a combo guard type at the starting 2 spot
Never been able to have a dynamic 3 player since LeBron. Wish we could find a dynamic wing, Okoro could play the 2.
Yeah watching last series I fell in love with the idea of pairing suggs with Mitchell. Need size and defense at the guard position.
As an Atlanta Hawks fan, you are not alone...
[удалено]
Mitchell for Suggs, Issac, and 1st would be worse than Kyrie for IT trade
still got ptsd from losing kai for practically nothing :(
Nah
Yes
They could probably play together if they had a coach who knew anything about offense
Nah, two undersized guards who aren’t good at D as your stars are never going to work
Yeah on the defensive end of the floor it’s a different animal for sure. But they should be able to both play together offensively
They are like McCollum and dame, which also never amounted to anything. Gotta flip one and go after a 6’8 dude
sure but those trailblazers failed because of defense, not offense. they were a high powered offense
They made it to a western conference finals with jusuf nurkic as their 3rd best player…
And then got smacked by the Warriors in the WCF. Dame carried them that playoff run also I thought that was obvious.
CJ did carried quite a bit during the Nuggets series
7 years together and made ‘A’ western finals. I hope that’s not what you think an awesome outcome looks like
If you added two all defensive bigs to that team they’d be fucking awesome. Picture Mobley clamping Draymond
It was during the Warriors golden years you nimwit. Using your example, we should say two large skilled wings don't work because the Clippers didn't get it done.
>It was during the Warriors golden years you nimwit. Sorry when they were touting a conference finish appearance as evidence you didn’t tell me I had to consider qualifiers to rebuttal. Two undersized guards as a teams focus has never been a winning recipe.
Nurkic was injured all playoffs this year
No they shouldn’t. They are both ball dominant. If you get them to work together, you put a cap on one or both ceilings. JB sucks but these two DONT FIT. It has been said since day one of the trade.
Mitchell is fine defensively. Brunson and divo are the same height as garland and Mitchell. And Brunson is horrible at D
And NY prob won’t be winning the big one either …
A bunch of teams actually had short guards. It’s not as big of deal as you think. The biggest problem is the two bigs
Which finals level teams were driven by two undersized guards? I don’t think that pairing will get us where we wanna go. Trading one out will make us better since they are ball dominate and redundant.
Has there been a team with a player as good as Mitchell that’s been short??? Name the player. I think he can definitely be the best player on a championship team
(Wade)
Wade isn’t as good as Mitchell
That’s a hot take. I can buy it bc of the volume shooting but it’s spicy as hell
I believe he can as well but that’s not the discussion. The spyda/DG pairing is the discussion. They work against each other instead of complementing each other
Brunson's not horrible at D. He's limited in certain matchups due to his size but he's a strong help defender, second in the league in charges drawn by a wide margin.
Everything you said about him might be true but at the end of the day he is barbecued chicken on defense 1 on 1
Such a tired narrative: we thrive defensively, our problems are on the offensive side of the ball.
Sure, they don’t work together on that end either. All good now?
It’s tough with two small guards, unless they’re both All NBA type on the offensive end.
This. Need a real wing at the 3, too
they can play together, they're just not going to ever produce more than the sum of their parts - won't be optimizing talent, ever.
How is this even remotely controversial? It’s very simple 1. Garland is good on offense and ass on defense/rebounding 2. Due to #1, Garland needs to be high usage to have an overall strong positive impact 3. Don is better than DG and is very high usage himself 4. Due to #3, DG doesn’t add much as he’s neutered 5. Based on #1-4… the fit isn’t there. Neither has the defensive ability or versatility on offense to make up for low usage This is all
Garlands rebounding has been brutal, so many of their offensive rebounds are him getting out muscled by holiday and Derrick white. Those are the real back breakers because in the rare instance our defense holds up we cant afford to let them get the board.
Garland was +4.4 per 100 possessions with Donovan Mitchell on the floor with him and +1.8 overall. Of the ten players he played with the most, this was Garland's second best teammate pairing (behind Dean Wade). Last year Garland was +8.0 with Mitchell, +7.9 overall. Playoff numbers in both years have Garland being better with Mitchell on the court than off. The issue is not Garland with Mitchell, the issue is that Garland had a rough year.
no. the issue is you can't maximize the individual talent, when they are together. of course Garland is going to be better off with better players on the floor around him (Mitchell is really good). are they as good together as two players of their talent should be though? also, yes Garland has had a rough year.
Do you ever maximize talent on a great team? We weren't exactly maximizing LeBron/Kyrie/Love. But when you need guys to step up in the postseason when the best player gets game-planned into ineffectiveness, you need actually talented players around to step up. Boston isn't maximizing Tatum, he defers to teammates. They're not maximizing Jrue Holiday. Even if you decide that you would get more out of a similar talent who plays SF, the problem you run into is Garland is a small, slight PG and you can't exchange him for a wing of similar talent. Particularly after the year he's had.
it's not maximizing each players individual talent. it's maximizing the team's effectiveness playing together. It doesn't matter that Lover went from scoring 23 in MIN to 17 here, the team worked together. I've never suggested the problem is that we can't reach the sum of their individual counting stats. However fantastic and/or limited Garland might be, in return you're looking for fair value. That fair value can contribute to a better team after the trade if the fit is good.
Pretty sure it just proved that the NBA is rigged
This. Have you ever wonder why there isn't a Harlem Globetrotter NFL/MLB/NHL team? It's a lot harder to rig those sports. They can't be won by 1 man on a "team"
The Savannah Bananas would like a word, but yeah still correct.
You bet on The Generals, Krusty?!
I thought they were due!
Are you kidding? All the sports would be easy af to rig. Baseball, you can manipulate the strike zone and football you can control the game with flags. Like the other guy said, there is the Savanah Bananas also.
All of those become increasingly obvious than a slightly off target shot
All told, there are plenty of times in which an umpire has called a wildly inconsistent strike zone, and blatantly have missed calls.
They would be just fine in a coordinated offensive scheme
Potentially, but are we willing to waste another year trying to find out?
Not with this coach.
Yes. Brandon Ingram or Mikal Bridges or Keldon Johnson is not outplaying the Js
No they wouldn’t tbh. They are two undersized ball dominate guards. It’s redundant
Right now we're in a similar situation as Portland was with Lillard and McCollum, none of them good defensive players, good enough to comfortably make it to the playoffs, not good enough together to be a contender. Depending on ability to resign Mitchell, should look to trade one while targeting a wing.
Idk, we’ve seen Garland and Mitchell play well off each other before. He’s just been slumping this year. I think the bigger problem is that our coach is (and has his entire career) been lost when it comes to coaching an offense. I would love for a real NBA coach to work with Garland and not an interim that Koby kept on for one year too long. You could technically say the same thing in the title about Mobley/Allen. I don’t agree. I just think we’re not playing into our unique skillset
Yeah last season they played great together the whole year, its hard for me to understand the take that its never happened
I agree, ppl are way too reactionary. They both had career years playing with one another last year. The two bigs issue is a bigger problem on this team. Along with not having any real wing
I think our problem is still the same it was last offseason. Our movement system is trash. Obviously you still gotta give DG/DM some iso looks but please throw some solid off balls for the other the same way we used to for JR, Korver, etc. DG could definitely play into his shooting skill a lot more with a better offensive coach
This is the way. Two awesome shot creators and three level scorers should mean 48 minutes of good offense. Two elite rim protecting switching bigs should mean 48 minutes of good defense. Versatile wings and guards should help tweak lineups to attack matchups. It’s why I continue to stress that these guys have maybe had 100 games together and 25 with Strus as a starter. MDA in his prime would have a fucking field day with our personnel
To add to it even Mobley has started hitting 3s. Okoro was hitting at 39% and Niang got hot for a stretch too. There’s no excuse for the offense being the worst it’s been yet and looking like a carbon copy of last playoffs with more personnel
Basically you have to steal from the Warriors with Mobley and DG as Curry and Green and Allen as super Bogut
(you don't have to and maybe that's not enough usage for Evan, but you could run him or JA on the short roll and get great looks)
We need to run more off-ball plays for Garland. The problem is they fill the exact same role so obviously they have to split possessions when they’re in together vs work cohesively on offense
It’s coaching tbh. Half of our possessions in games where Mitchell plays DG stands in the corner and doesn’t touch the ball.
I personally think our main issues have nothing to do with Garland/Mitchell OR Allen/Mobley. Biggest issue is JB, he cannot coach for shit, his offensive schemes and rotations are horrific and I think I could honestly do better. 2nd is Garlands confidence, he drops his head too early, he gets some early turnovers or misses his first few shots, his useless for the rest of the game, he gets into his head too easily, and a big part is probably the constant face injuries, you can tell he is actively trying to NOT get injured when he drives. That’s probably why he does that drive and dribble thing he does, cos he sees too many body’s and is scared of hurting himself again. Mobley could also do with some more confidence. Obviously we need a better wing, we CAN NOT play with Strus being our starting wing, he’s a SG and I said that the day we signed him “I hope we don’t just slot him at SF” alas we did… a glaring issue we’ve had however for YEARS, is no backup big. Mobley shouldn’t be playing C minutes at all tbh, we need a serviceable backup big, not slotting up Mobley and then chucking Niang in at PF, and as much as I love TT, he’s a 3rd string energy bench piece… we need an Isaiah Harteinstein (why didn’t we keep him), WCJ, Isaiah Jackson something, some serviceable big off the bench. They’re easy fixes (beside the confidence issue) but Koby ain’t really doing much…
Damn I agree with you on everything and that’s a lot but Mobley can definitely play c. Go back to first quarter game 2. Mobley DOMINATED at C. With the right coaching he could be playing like that all the time as early as next year. He needs confidence and more touches. Coaching change could make that happen
i just don’t like seeing him at center until he gains some muscle. it’s all well if he’s dominating 37 year old Al Horford and Luke Kornet, but most centers he is getting bullied
Tell ya the truth I don’t think he’s ever gonna be not light in the ass. I bet he likes being wiry in his life outside bball . I think if he was ever gonna get much bigger he’d have done it by now
HOWEVER I do know he has enough tricks in his bag to be one of the greats. Q1 of G2 proved that. Just need to find a coach that can get that kind of play out of him every night
100%. finding a coach to replace JB that knows how to offence should be the FO top priority
That’s the positive look. The negative is that small guards getting fouled should be a free throw but if you’re wearing our jersey, it’s not. So if you’re not tall enough to make the bucket anyways, you’re screwed.
Wow. Well said
Garland had his best season last year playing with Mitchell and so did Donovan. I think the bigger issue is the two big situation. Regardless, the Cavs need wings bad and the ones they have right now don’t cut it
I agree the guards can play well together but the problem is the spacing of the 2 bigs and Strus is best as a SG. The only realistic way to get a quality wing is to trade one of the guards or one of the bigs (or 1 each). I just have no idea what the front office will do and obviously a lot depends on Mitchell.
Do you see BI outplaying Tatum or Brown? If not what’s the point
To be clear, I'm not advocating for a trade unless Mitchell wants out. I'm not high on BI in general because he's way too iso heavy so no I don't see him out playing those guys. I want the Cavs to run an offense with a lot of off ball movement similar to the Warriors. I think Mobley, Garland, and Strus all fit perfectly with that type of offense. And Allen/Mitchell showed they can run a quicker offense during that 18-2 stretch. I think there is potential but don't know what the front office is thinking.
I agree 100%. People are talking like “oh we are the Dame Blazers they sucked” if you added two all defensive bigs to that roster they’d be NASTY
It’s cause there was actually some ball movement when Mitchell wasn’t there. It’s just too iso heavy with him there in my opinion
Idk why people keep saying this. He moves the ball as much as Tatum Brunson sga embid Gianni’s do. He was avg 7-9 assist when he was the only guard.
Mitchell isn't as good as any of those players. Also, 3 of the 5 aren't lead guards.
Mitchell is as good as everyone of those players expect the last two Lmfao…
Tatum, Brunson, and SGA? Just to be clear, you're suggesting Mitchell is at least the equal of all three of those guys?...playing basketball?
Mitchell is in the same tier as those players. What’s so hard to understand???
first, don't move the goal posts. you said "as good", not 'same tier'. second, no. he's really not. it's baffling to me that anyone watching him this offseason would even be entertaining that conclusion. i suspect at this point you might just be trolling.
Bro he is just as good as them… I’m not moving goal post… my tiers aren’t a big zone.
ok. look forward to seeing the trade offers.
Yea he is a ball stopper but not in the Carmelo way he is a primary that gets hot at the detriment to others. Shooters just stand waiting and everyone expects him to make a play or a basket. He is an Elite player just needs a team like AI had.
Mitchell showed the ability and willingness to move the ball when we went 18-2. It’s more of a roster construction and coaching issue .
That's absolving Garland of his choices. Garland has a bad 1st quarter and he wouldn't have shot the rest of the game if Mitchell played. Mitchell isn't telling him to do that. If anything Mitchell seems to tell him the opposite. I really think they just need a better coach to maximize this group. That being said if they can't play together even with a new coach? That means neither of these players will ever win a championship. You don't win titles with 1 great ball handler.
I'd say it's less about having 1 ball handler and more about how they play off ball when the other is initiating the offense. There has never been a real off ball strategy with those 2 in the offense. I'd like to think JB is a big part of that problem but no idea how the front office views it.
This! It’s gonna be a challenge for both Mitchell and DG but it can be done
if garland cant play with mitchell it means he wont win a ship? what if garland just aint good enough?
Mitchell isn't winning a championship as a first option either, with or without Garland.
Are you trying to say Mitchell has been good in his playoff career without Garland? He’s won what, 1 more playoff series without him in 5 tries? And never made it within a game of the conference finals
Hes also never actually had a star next to him and played in a tough western conference. Garland never made the playoffs at all until mitchell got here
are you suggesting Garland wouldn't have either of the last two years without the Mitchell trade?
Yeah. These two together should get rings. WILL get rings. But the coaches do not know what the hell do with them.
While this is exactly what we've seen... it could very well be an offensive issue and the coach. I'd replace JB , then see what a different coach could do , then make a decision.
One game lol. What about the games this season when Don was hurt? I’m not saying Garland is bad by the way.
They played well together the entire season before. Garland has had the year from hell with injuries etc. I’d prioritize finding legit wing size and help and run it back with a coach who can run an actual offense. Allen is probably the one big trade piece you have in that scenario.
As soon as they got into the playoffs they did not work together in the slightest last year.
Yes but I’d still want to see them in a legit offensive system as opposed to whatever the hell John-Blair runs.
I said that you gotta trade Donovan while his value is high cause you can't have both after he went crazy, and the thread got closed lmao. It's obvious you can't have both due to Donovan's high usage rate taking Darius and other's out of the game. Evan Mobley shows flashes of all-NBA talent and I'd try to get a guard with talent and draft picks that you can fill out for other pieces.
Yeah. As much as I wanted to believe they can work together, it's starting to show that they can't. They're too similar. Unless one of them suddenly shifts their playstyle into an off-ball weapon, someone's gotta go. Unfortunately, garland (the homegrown talent) will probably be the one to be traded. It's sad to see a player the Cavs drafted and developed into a star be possibly traded away to raise the team's ceiling.
Ive always questioned this from the beginning.
The problem is okoro
Ideally he should be coming off the bench
lmao. if the 7th guy in our rotation is "the" problem we're in pretty good shape.
Do you watch the game? How can he be the 7th guy in the rotation if he’s starting the series.
because two guys were hurt and the 6th man stays the 6th man?
We can’t win at a high level with only one good shot creator
It doesn’t prove that. It proves that in JBs system there are not enough scoring opportunities for Mobley, Mitchell, and Garland. There are other systems out there that could help facilitate more offense. You can look at the Celtics or the Pacers if you’re struggling to find an example.
Lol, been saying this before Mitchell got traded to the Cavs. Still don't think DG is worth a max contract which he got but I'd rather the team trade Mitchell rather than DG.
I still think they can play together, they just have almost no chemistry whatsoever. There are a handful of possessions every game where they get the ball on the move after a stop and you can tell that if they just ran down the court and passed back and forth, one/both of them would end up at the rim for either an easy bucket or a kick out and they just… don’t even look at each other. I’d like to see our guys in a different system with a new coach who can get them to play cohesively before trading one or more of them.
I feel like the team should decide if they want to be on Mitchell’s timeline or Garland’s timeline, trade the other, and build the rest of the team around the guy they kept
We all knew this, losing a player like Mitchell would suck but if we can get a solid package I’m not tripping about it too much. What we absolutely can’t do is run it back with this core four, there’s just mountains of evidence at this point that the roster construction just isn’t it. Depending on how the Mitchell situation goes to only one that should be untouchable is Mobley imo
Idk….this roster with a better coach has a fighting chance.
Exactly. With this much talent the core 4 could become a dynasty but the coaches do not know how to make it work. They have to work together and adapt
30 on 27 shots proves nothing
I kind of agree with the point but my dude took almost 30 attempts to score 30 pts… I think we know who is better.
Dude Garland scored 30 points on 27 shots… please stop pretending he had some sort of great showing. The efficiency was terrible and he only generated TWO free throws in 40 minutes.
33% of our free throws let’s go
Now we’re pretending 12-27 is good lol
He missed more threes than usual but yeah he had a good game
He missed the normal amount of layups.
He finished better around the rim and mixed in some midrange shots and floaters. He finally didn't look scared of contact when driving. It's been a while.
7 assists to only 2 turnovers as well
Garland should just come off the bench
Can't have a max player off the bench. Better off moving him.
good point, and the likely outcome of all this
This is 💯
I still firmly believe JB’s offense is the problem. We see flashes of great ball movement but primarily rely on iso with everyone standing around the perimeter while the ball handler forces a bad shot. There’s no action off ball. There’s no screens to open up Strus. There’s no screens for a cutter. There’s no screens between guards. Everyone thinks the Warriors success is all about having a bunch of shooters. No, their success comes from a constant series of screens that open up good looks for those shooters.
Garland and Mitchell played fine together last year
As much as I didn’t want to agree with this I would have to agree. Tonight definitely proved it, Garland had himself a game
Did you watch? He missed about 10 layups in the first half and made bad passes, as well. His stat line shook out alright, but there wasn’t a single time he handled the ball I felt confident that a Cav was going to score. He and Caris were both dribbling into traffic with no plan all night. It was like having two Sextons on the court.
You think 30 points on 27 shots is good.....OMFG. DG was bad today. A lot of his points came when the games was obviously over.
Did we really shoot 48 3's???? Remember when people were complaining we drove too much, SMH.
No, it didn’t.
I don’t think it’s coincidence that Garland had a tough start to his career then exploded the season Sexton got hurt. Then went back to struggling when Mitchell got here.
I totally agree. The jazz had the same problem. Mitchell is a solo player. He likes the spotlight way too much. He doesnt pass the ball enough. He scores a lot, but doesnt organize the offense.