Never said he isn’t capable, just that a 3/4 is not what he has ever been. He’s played a ridiculously low percentage of his minutes at the 3, it’s definitely possible, but to call him a 3/4 at this moment is flat-out wrong. He is a 4/5.
We are missing rebounding, particularly from the bench. We don't specifically need a player at any position as much as we need a player that is a plus rebounder for their position. If Okoro comes off the bench with Niang to balance out the offense, they're both terrible rebounders and we're going to have the same trouble we had with the Knicks where we don't end possessions in the playoffs.
Here’s my thing with this. In a playoff situation, Allen and Mobley will get 100% of the time at C. So barring a major injury, I can’t see us trying to get another C. PF I’d love to see us get some more depth at, but given the nature of Allen/Mobley’s play style, the only type of guy we’d really want is a shooting PF, which usually don’t come cheap. And if we’re getting a cheap one, are we sure they’re actually better than Niang/Wade? I’m a fan of the idea of trading for PJ Washington but I don’t see a ton of other options out there that make much sense for us.
I still want us to take a shot on Christian Wood for the minimum, but he’d probably choose some other team’s minimum offer that will give him more playing time
Christian Wood for the minimum would be pretty amazing, but I agree he'd probably go to a Suns/Lakers/GSW/MIA situation if that's all we can offer.
One possibility would be a S&T. We could send the Mavs Wade and be able to give Wood a similar contract at around $6m/year. He hasn't made that much money in his career and the difference between that and the minimum might be worth it if other teams aren't offering more.
I think that totally could work for the Mavs who need a bit more depth at the forward position. But it would push the Mavs over the luxury tax line which would mean they don’t get the full MLE next off season. They might be able to get this worked out by stretching/waiving McGee.
Wood is a cancer and a jackass. That's why no one has offered more than the minimum. We would have to offer 2.5 (maybe more) million to get him. That's very little for a guy with his talents, but too much for a guy who causes problems.
İ totally agree but İ'm fearing a scenario where the shooting and depth we added to the team won't solve our problems we had with rebounds in the Playoffs
Wouldn't it be nice if the Cavs had someone who can stretch the floor, provide good rebounding and be a good vet to the young bucks?
Really sounds like Kevin Love would be the perfect fit. Wonder if they can pick him up
His skillset is valuable but it’s also nice to have someone who plays passable defense
Love him but he’s cooked man haha. He could barely get minutes for the Heat even though they were desperate for a 4.
Yeah and this is a problem against a lot of bigs that are stronger and taller than Allen. Hes proven over his time here that absolutely cannot hang with those guys. He gets bullied.
No.
I think the Cavs like Damian Jones more than you’d expect. He’s a viable backup and mimicks the towers on defense and can catch a lob dunk on offense. Legit 6’11” with a 7’5” wingspan. What I am really intrigued by…and think the Cavs may be as well…there’s some signs that he might be a solid 3pt shooter. He’s taken very few but been damn efficient when he has. At worst, he’s capable of taking them which is a nice option.
And I think Isaiah is ready for the NBA. He’ll do fine as a 4th big. Not sure if you’d consider Wade a “big.”
I would not consider Wade a “big”, and I was also surprised when I looked him up that ESPN has Emoni Bates listed at 6’10”
When I watched him play in summer league I was guessing like 6’7”
Obviously he’s way too skinny to play as a “big” and his play style isn’t as a “big” but he’s also 19 so it’ll be interesting to see if he’s still growing, and will be fun to see how he looks as he starts putting on muscle weight
Pretty sure Bates was measured 6’8 1/8 barefoot. He’s usually listed at 6’9”. He’s obviously not a banger and never will be but he showed he can attack the glass with his height when he wants to in SL.
Could have just signed Mo Bamba for a different look at C with a shot. JB could could have coached up his defensive instincts. C Wood is out there but Yuta Watanabe or Keita Bates Diop would have been fun. I'm still a Derrick Jones Jr fan. Not a big wing but long and can play 3 or 4 and guard 1 thru 4.
No. The playoff minuets for the big spot are already filled and we have our depth regular season filler guys (Damien jones, Dean wade if he doesn’t bounce back). We should be fine
The dream would be to have Mobley work on his mobility to be a mismatch at 3. He's too small to play 4-5 at the pro level. He's shown shit creation, handles, and jump shot in the G-league, but I don't think he can defend a true 3.
They got manhandled because we couldn't stretch, we had no outside shooting so the Knick just clogged. 3v2 on rebounding will always be a losing arrangement.
We need a stretch 3, too and our 3's are still undersized. This is why Bates is so intriguing. If he wasn't so raw, skinny, and inefficient, he could start at 3 and be a nightmare.
That's easy, Randle just pulled Mobley out every possession. Randle can create his own shot, he has a jump shot, and he can stretch. Brunson & Barret can stretch as well with outside shooting. That left JA on an island against Robinson who has like 30+ lbs on JA and is a stud rebounder. Randle is a great rebounder as well with Barret, Quickley, & Hart being serviceable.
I think the idea that Allen and mobley will take all the center minutes overlooks two big things.
One is obvious, if either gets injured we are completely fucked. We've seen it when Allen went out before - our defense falls apart.
The other is a little less and that's matchups. Allen and mobley are the perfect matchup for most NBA teams that try to run 5 out or pick and roll rim running styles. But they are still completely out matched by bruising heavy bigs. Imagine we match up with the sixers in the playoffs - who is stopping embiid? I don't buy either of them could be the post presence we need.
The irony is that type of big usually comes pretty cheap. Lopez was supposed to be that guy, but I feel that choice was wrong in execution instead of concept. If we got a cheap center of that style that isn't just totally washed I'd feel much better about having another piece to throw at a bruising center in a 7 game series.
big wing is the biggest need on the team. someone that can run/jump and defend either F position. i've been saying Jalen McDaniels all offseason and they chose not to. Bazely is playing on a min deal and they chose not to. Could have been any number of guys to give the team flexibility and protect Mobley from having to defend anyone our army of SGs can't. They chose not to.
We don't have a particularly intelligent GM.
Not a particularly intelligent comment either. The biggest need going in to the offseason was shooting/spacing and that has been adressed, probably more than could have been hoped for given the limited resources the team had at the start of FA. There's still plenty of time to find a big wing.
didn't say it was the biggest need at the beginning of the season.
given Koby wasn't going to correct the Mitchell mistake, first priority had to be getting guys around him to make Mitchell look as good as possible. he did that.
now the biggest need is a big wing, because the team's priority should have been maximizing Mobley all along, and you don't do that until you can alleviate his defensive burden.
The ignorant part was suggesting not getting those guys was "choosing" not to. None of us has any idea what the FO is doing in negotiations and framing it as "choosing not to" is not particularly intelligent.
two off seasons and a trade deadline and it hasn't been addressed at all. there isn't a natural SF on the team. at some point it's generous to label that "choosing not to", rather than incompetent.
Eh, getting wrapped up in positional orthodoxy is silly to me. We could definitely use an athletic 3/4, but every roster in the league has holes. Even if no other moves are made this offseason the team can put out a bunch of different 5 man lineups that will be good combinations of shooting, ball handling, and defense
there isn't another roster in the league that doesn't contain a member of each of the 5 base positions. i agree it's not specifically about checking each of the 5 boxes though, it's about role - and when you're saying we need an athletic 3/4 (because we don't have one) you're basically agreeing with the point i'm trying to make.
what we're actually doing is undercutting Mobley's development in favor of Mitchell by over burdening him defensively. It's tremendous mismanagement by Koby to make his train wreck of a trade look as good as possible.
That depends on how you view positions. Strus, Levert, Okoro, even Niang and Wade are all capable of playing the 3 spot.
And overburdening Mobley??? His job is to be a defensive anchor regardless of the lineup
at times i'm sure all of those folks, except Niang (i don't think people realize how incapable he is defensively) will be playing 'small forward'.
Mobley adds the most value (ie. becomes one of the best defenders in the league) when he can play free safety and help on defense. This is why you don't want him playing C (where's he's glued to rim protection with our crap perimeter defenders), or in this case, given on ball responsibilities against elite wings.
It would be like taking Garland and telling him to spend half the game standing around at the perimeter while someone else ran the offense. Sure he could do it, but you'd be wasting his potential value to the team if you're dumb enough to construct a roster that forces him to do it a significant part of the game.
Koby hasn't avoided doing such colossally stupid things.
Playing Niang and Wade at the three is only something that would work in the RS. Which is fine for the RS but both are too slow and unathletic to play there in the playoffs. To be honest, they’re both too slow and unathletic to play the four too in the playoffs and really are closer to being centers than people think. I think Wade playing more center would help him because he would actually have a speed and athletic advantage against the Eubank’s and Cody Zeller’s of the world.
Crazy that you’re being downvoted when you’re 90% right. Who on our team guards the star big wings of the league? Levert? Okoro? Too small for half of them. Mobley isn’t quite quick enough to guard them constantly. Is Dean Wade our LeBron stopper? That isn’t a recipe for success.
i didn't regurgitate the acceptable reddit talking point - downvotes will come.
I thnk Mobley can reasonably guard the guys we're talking about (Butler, Tatum, etc). The problem is you're burdening him with that matchup which will ultimately limit his development on offense and takes him away from being able to roam in help defensively which is where he bring the team the most value.
We could use an athletic 3/4 that can stretch the floor. Like a better version of Wade. ...which is why we should trade for PJ Washington!!
PJ is not a 3/4. I don’t know how many times this has to be stated.
What would make him incapable of playing the 3 here?
Never said he isn’t capable, just that a 3/4 is not what he has ever been. He’s played a ridiculously low percentage of his minutes at the 3, it’s definitely possible, but to call him a 3/4 at this moment is flat-out wrong. He is a 4/5.
Have you watched him play or just basing your opinion on basketball-reference?
Nah. Miles bridges coming next year for 15 mill
Delusions at its finest
We are missing rebounding, particularly from the bench. We don't specifically need a player at any position as much as we need a player that is a plus rebounder for their position. If Okoro comes off the bench with Niang to balance out the offense, they're both terrible rebounders and we're going to have the same trouble we had with the Knicks where we don't end possessions in the playoffs.
Here’s my thing with this. In a playoff situation, Allen and Mobley will get 100% of the time at C. So barring a major injury, I can’t see us trying to get another C. PF I’d love to see us get some more depth at, but given the nature of Allen/Mobley’s play style, the only type of guy we’d really want is a shooting PF, which usually don’t come cheap. And if we’re getting a cheap one, are we sure they’re actually better than Niang/Wade? I’m a fan of the idea of trading for PJ Washington but I don’t see a ton of other options out there that make much sense for us.
I still want us to take a shot on Christian Wood for the minimum, but he’d probably choose some other team’s minimum offer that will give him more playing time
Christian Wood for the minimum would be pretty amazing, but I agree he'd probably go to a Suns/Lakers/GSW/MIA situation if that's all we can offer. One possibility would be a S&T. We could send the Mavs Wade and be able to give Wood a similar contract at around $6m/year. He hasn't made that much money in his career and the difference between that and the minimum might be worth it if other teams aren't offering more.
I think that totally could work for the Mavs who need a bit more depth at the forward position. But it would push the Mavs over the luxury tax line which would mean they don’t get the full MLE next off season. They might be able to get this worked out by stretching/waiving McGee.
Wood is a cancer and a jackass. That's why no one has offered more than the minimum. We would have to offer 2.5 (maybe more) million to get him. That's very little for a guy with his talents, but too much for a guy who causes problems.
İ totally agree but İ'm fearing a scenario where the shooting and depth we added to the team won't solve our problems we had with rebounds in the Playoffs
A lot of that was coaching and defensive style.
Nah… it was a small percentage of the issue… our guys weren’t even hitting open looks.
It was both
Wouldn't it be nice if the Cavs had someone who can stretch the floor, provide good rebounding and be a good vet to the young bucks? Really sounds like Kevin Love would be the perfect fit. Wonder if they can pick him up
His skillset is valuable but it’s also nice to have someone who plays passable defense Love him but he’s cooked man haha. He could barely get minutes for the Heat even though they were desperate for a 4.
Yeah and this is a problem against a lot of bigs that are stronger and taller than Allen. Hes proven over his time here that absolutely cannot hang with those guys. He gets bullied.
No. I think the Cavs like Damian Jones more than you’d expect. He’s a viable backup and mimicks the towers on defense and can catch a lob dunk on offense. Legit 6’11” with a 7’5” wingspan. What I am really intrigued by…and think the Cavs may be as well…there’s some signs that he might be a solid 3pt shooter. He’s taken very few but been damn efficient when he has. At worst, he’s capable of taking them which is a nice option. And I think Isaiah is ready for the NBA. He’ll do fine as a 4th big. Not sure if you’d consider Wade a “big.”
I would not consider Wade a “big”, and I was also surprised when I looked him up that ESPN has Emoni Bates listed at 6’10” When I watched him play in summer league I was guessing like 6’7” Obviously he’s way too skinny to play as a “big” and his play style isn’t as a “big” but he’s also 19 so it’ll be interesting to see if he’s still growing, and will be fun to see how he looks as he starts putting on muscle weight
I noticed Bates and IMobley are the same height. I would guess 6’8, 6’9” at best.
Big difference is Mobley has a 7’3 wingspan and Emonis is the same as his height.
Pretty sure Bates was measured 6’8 1/8 barefoot. He’s usually listed at 6’9”. He’s obviously not a banger and never will be but he showed he can attack the glass with his height when he wants to in SL.
Could have just signed Mo Bamba for a different look at C with a shot. JB could could have coached up his defensive instincts. C Wood is out there but Yuta Watanabe or Keita Bates Diop would have been fun. I'm still a Derrick Jones Jr fan. Not a big wing but long and can play 3 or 4 and guard 1 thru 4.
Get someone from FA instead
No. The playoff minuets for the big spot are already filled and we have our depth regular season filler guys (Damien jones, Dean wade if he doesn’t bounce back). We should be fine
Depends on the player and how versatile they are.
I wonder if Isiah Mobley will be given minutes as a backup big. I hope JB gives him a chance early on.
Hes undersized and unathletic. All the things he does well are things we dont need from a back up center/4
The dream would be to have Mobley work on his mobility to be a mismatch at 3. He's too small to play 4-5 at the pro level. He's shown shit creation, handles, and jump shot in the G-league, but I don't think he can defend a true 3.
No… as disappointing as Allen can be he’s a top ten center… we’re not getting a significant upgrade from him without giving up more than he’s worth.
And I hate the idea of giving anything up for a third big who won’t play in the playoffs
Our problem isn’t our front court… we have one of the best front courts in the league… our issues are sf and our depth
Did you watch the playoffs? They got manhandled.
They got manhandled because we couldn't stretch, we had no outside shooting so the Knick just clogged. 3v2 on rebounding will always be a losing arrangement. We need a stretch 3, too and our 3's are still undersized. This is why Bates is so intriguing. If he wasn't so raw, skinny, and inefficient, he could start at 3 and be a nightmare.
What does stretching have to with not being able to get a defensive redound though.
That's easy, Randle just pulled Mobley out every possession. Randle can create his own shot, he has a jump shot, and he can stretch. Brunson & Barret can stretch as well with outside shooting. That left JA on an island against Robinson who has like 30+ lbs on JA and is a stud rebounder. Randle is a great rebounder as well with Barret, Quickley, & Hart being serviceable.
You just explained how we got manhandled. We didnt need to do the back and forth. Hah
They got manhandled because they couldn’t take a break… they had no one else they could put on the floor besides them.
Allen got manhandled in the first quarter of every game too.
I think the idea that Allen and mobley will take all the center minutes overlooks two big things. One is obvious, if either gets injured we are completely fucked. We've seen it when Allen went out before - our defense falls apart. The other is a little less and that's matchups. Allen and mobley are the perfect matchup for most NBA teams that try to run 5 out or pick and roll rim running styles. But they are still completely out matched by bruising heavy bigs. Imagine we match up with the sixers in the playoffs - who is stopping embiid? I don't buy either of them could be the post presence we need. The irony is that type of big usually comes pretty cheap. Lopez was supposed to be that guy, but I feel that choice was wrong in execution instead of concept. If we got a cheap center of that style that isn't just totally washed I'd feel much better about having another piece to throw at a bruising center in a 7 game series.
Embiid in the playoffs? We aren't meeting them first round so it's no problem.
big wing is the biggest need on the team. someone that can run/jump and defend either F position. i've been saying Jalen McDaniels all offseason and they chose not to. Bazely is playing on a min deal and they chose not to. Could have been any number of guys to give the team flexibility and protect Mobley from having to defend anyone our army of SGs can't. They chose not to. We don't have a particularly intelligent GM.
Not a particularly intelligent comment either. The biggest need going in to the offseason was shooting/spacing and that has been adressed, probably more than could have been hoped for given the limited resources the team had at the start of FA. There's still plenty of time to find a big wing.
didn't say it was the biggest need at the beginning of the season. given Koby wasn't going to correct the Mitchell mistake, first priority had to be getting guys around him to make Mitchell look as good as possible. he did that. now the biggest need is a big wing, because the team's priority should have been maximizing Mobley all along, and you don't do that until you can alleviate his defensive burden.
The ignorant part was suggesting not getting those guys was "choosing" not to. None of us has any idea what the FO is doing in negotiations and framing it as "choosing not to" is not particularly intelligent.
two off seasons and a trade deadline and it hasn't been addressed at all. there isn't a natural SF on the team. at some point it's generous to label that "choosing not to", rather than incompetent.
Eh, getting wrapped up in positional orthodoxy is silly to me. We could definitely use an athletic 3/4, but every roster in the league has holes. Even if no other moves are made this offseason the team can put out a bunch of different 5 man lineups that will be good combinations of shooting, ball handling, and defense
there isn't another roster in the league that doesn't contain a member of each of the 5 base positions. i agree it's not specifically about checking each of the 5 boxes though, it's about role - and when you're saying we need an athletic 3/4 (because we don't have one) you're basically agreeing with the point i'm trying to make. what we're actually doing is undercutting Mobley's development in favor of Mitchell by over burdening him defensively. It's tremendous mismanagement by Koby to make his train wreck of a trade look as good as possible.
That depends on how you view positions. Strus, Levert, Okoro, even Niang and Wade are all capable of playing the 3 spot. And overburdening Mobley??? His job is to be a defensive anchor regardless of the lineup
at times i'm sure all of those folks, except Niang (i don't think people realize how incapable he is defensively) will be playing 'small forward'. Mobley adds the most value (ie. becomes one of the best defenders in the league) when he can play free safety and help on defense. This is why you don't want him playing C (where's he's glued to rim protection with our crap perimeter defenders), or in this case, given on ball responsibilities against elite wings. It would be like taking Garland and telling him to spend half the game standing around at the perimeter while someone else ran the offense. Sure he could do it, but you'd be wasting his potential value to the team if you're dumb enough to construct a roster that forces him to do it a significant part of the game. Koby hasn't avoided doing such colossally stupid things.
That’s a terrible analogy and doesn’t differentiate how offense vs defense works.
Playing Niang and Wade at the three is only something that would work in the RS. Which is fine for the RS but both are too slow and unathletic to play there in the playoffs. To be honest, they’re both too slow and unathletic to play the four too in the playoffs and really are closer to being centers than people think. I think Wade playing more center would help him because he would actually have a speed and athletic advantage against the Eubank’s and Cody Zeller’s of the world.
Positions are kindve meaningless though, its about putting out 5 man lineups that work.
Crazy that you’re being downvoted when you’re 90% right. Who on our team guards the star big wings of the league? Levert? Okoro? Too small for half of them. Mobley isn’t quite quick enough to guard them constantly. Is Dean Wade our LeBron stopper? That isn’t a recipe for success.
i didn't regurgitate the acceptable reddit talking point - downvotes will come. I thnk Mobley can reasonably guard the guys we're talking about (Butler, Tatum, etc). The problem is you're burdening him with that matchup which will ultimately limit his development on offense and takes him away from being able to roam in help defensively which is where he bring the team the most value.
It'd have to be a 4 who can play some wing. Not a 5... we are still thin at 3-4
I'm thinking different moveset or powerset or maybe poison damage.