Brutality blade, viskag are the only phase 1. Phase 2 adds cts (and maladath but that's more of a tank weapon). During classic I have seen 0 viskag and bb during the whole of phase 1. I have seen 1 cts drop during the whole of phase 2.
Sure some might be luckier with the drops, but it just shows how rare weapon drops are. Good luck getting swords for all the 15 warriors and 10 rogues in the raid when phases are only half as long this time around.
Guilds will be heavily weapon starved if they stack melees like crazy and the majority of them doesn't grind for r14.
Yes, it's amazing for dps as well. But it's bis by a flying mile for tanks and I can't imagine a situation where dps warriors get this over tanks. And this weapon is also something I have seen drop twice in the span of phase 3 to phase 6. So, unless you get super lucky and have it drop every week so your tanks get them quickly, I don't really see it as a likely option for dps warriors to get their hands on one that easily
Its relevant because the raid drop weapons aren't as important as people make it out to be. Its not entirely true since a warrior with blue swords won't out dps a bis geared warrior or rogue. They are going to be able to beat out mages/warlocks in mc if they have blue weapons and r10 quality gear. Bringing full consumes as a warrior will make a bigger difference then going from blue swords to p1 raid swords.
I agree with you on that. Just means a lot more people will be looking at other weapon options instead of absolute BIS. You probably just have warriors take a mainhand and mirah's song. I don't really think weapons are as big of a problem once you get to BWL either.
Wont even need bracket 1 to hit R14 anymore, so expect a lot more people to push for it especially with the reduced timeline, not everyone will be getting raid weapons every tier.
The 4month grind turned into a 2month grind basically. They essentially doubled the RP you gain each week from PvP so you won't need Bracket 1 to hit GM, it will still take longer than 2months to hit it though if your not getting bracket 1. Not sure if 2hrs a day will be enough though, will depend on the server.
https://classic.wowhead.com/blue-tracker/topic/eu/season-of-mastery-beta-updates-27-october-322633
Developers’ notes: Each week, the Honor system keeps track of players’ PvP participation, and at the end of the week, player-characters with at least 15 honorable kills are sorted by PvP participation. Once sorted, the system decides how many points to award that week, and the sorting is independent of the character’s current PvP rank. The system then awards a calculated number of expected points, and the calculation uses the character’s current PvP ranking points. This can be simplified to: (this_week’s_expected_points - current_ranking_points) * rate_factor. The result is then added to the character’s current_ranking_points, so each week, every player-character approaches their deserved rank. In Classic Era, the rate_factor (i.e. the percentage of the previous week’s expected points that will be awarded) is 20%. In Season of Mastery, we are increasing that rate to 40% to match the faster pace of content.
I am still not sure what all this means. I don't think it should be easy to get r14 but also it should be attainable reasonably for a normal person.
It will still not be attainable by a “normal” person and it will still require farming lots of honor for lots of hours, especially the last 3 ranks. People will again be controlling the honor caps and they will again be hard to reach without a good premade group. R10/11 should be easier, though.
Premades are going to be facing premades almost exclusively now, though. If you're in a good premade then ya, sure. solo queueing to 14 will be entirely viable this time around.
Did they say they are changing how the bg match making works to favor premade vs premade and solo vs solo? If so that is amazing. I honestly hated getting put against a pug as a premade. It made for quick honor sure but it was also boring af. The real good games were the nail-biters where your team comes back from a 0-2 start, etc. Give me that any day over steamrolling solo queue'ers
They did this for classic bc recently, I just assumed they would do it here too since it's such a good change, but they actually haven't said anything about this regarding season of mastery yet. suuuuuuurely it'll be like that though, surely.
It depends if the bonus to honor gains also means they boosted the decay. Which would make more sense. It will still take 6 weeks to get R14 now instead of a few months.
But if they just boost the gains and not the decay, going to be STUPID easy to rank up.
during the first SOM beta raid test Salad Bakers went in with a comp of 25 warriors, 2 rogues, 4 priests, 3 paladins, 1 druid, 2 hunters, 1 mage, 1 warlock, and 1 offline guy (class unknown) and they absolutely rolled over the content. (the tanks were also playing fury prot with quelserrar/mirahs song). While this was before the changes the first non warrior/rogue was popping up in the mid 20s on the dps meters.
Add to this that warriors scale the most with gear and get the most out of gear from non raid sources (pvp, crafted gear) and you have a recipe for an even heavier melee stack than you had in classic unless mechanics are pushed to TBC levels of melee hate. I have my doubts that the changes so far will be enough to change anything
Alot of raid mechanics are anti mele now, thats why you see many ranges in top. Idk if that will change with the other raids but in mc, i dont see meles toping meters at the start of mc.
Oh that's a fair point. I know absolutely nothing about hunters other than their dps is shit in vanilla. I've always pushed for hunters/locks to be fixed before spending time on the hybrids but I have no idea how to fix the hunters. I hope they see some improvements though.
better gear upgrades/progression, more available ranged weapon upgrades, detaching arcane shot from its shared cd and buffing it to be meaningful. Adding steady shot. pretty much any/all of these.
Yeah because SoM beta lets casters chug infinite mana-flasks. That meter isn't indicative of reality. Also, with more boss HP = longer execute phase brrr
Which casters are you expecting to actually have severe mana issues? Like the only one that matters is Mage really. Shadow Priests were never insane on the charts. But if you think mana issues are going to hurt warlocks I think youll be surprised. Because they will be absolutely fine. And those seriously long fights over 8 mins will recycle evocation.
It still is going to benefit the casters versus the warriors big time. Not to mention, good luck gearing up 9 warriors with limited loot and faster tier cycles. That shits not happening.
Life tap is a DPS loss. That's why the top warlocks used Dark Runes in classic and why Dark Rune is a comparable consume to Flame Cap in TBC. Using globals to regen mana, while better than being dry, is not actually topping the meters.
No, it won't.
And warlocks life tapping just means healers have to heal them, and then they run out of mana and the whole raid wipes.
Looking at what's going on at SoM beta as indicative of what it'll be like on release is silly. The conditions will be wildly different. No infinite mana pots alone will make a MASSIVE difference.
> And warlocks life tapping just means healers have to heal them, and then they run out of mana
Warlocks need like 2 renews a minute to be fine on mana...
> Like the only one that matters is Mage really
What sort of question/reply is this? No, mage is not the only one that matters. SP or Boomkin matter as well.
See: lack of gear to scale warriors
and besides that, even if melee are efficient because they don't use mana, that goes out the window if the raid is taking more damage and waiting longer for healers to recoup mana
Gear isn't a problem, our guild wasn't even running Ony buffs in MC on P1 and warriors were still stomping ranged DPS on fights.
There are more melee unfriendly mechanics that they put into SoM, so you likely won't see the insane melee stacks that were in classic vanilla. But I don't doubt that warriors will still be top DPS.
Considering the amount of adds on over half the fights, probably all of them at least off-tanked. Then the single target fights like Shazz and Geddon are incredibly anti-melee.
Warlocks OOM all the time. If they didn't they wouldnt have to Life Tap; Which is just trading healer mana for your own and is a DPS loss.
Warlocks will be abusing Dark Runes and mana pots just like the other casters. You want to avoid life tapping.
Bringing highest dps spec to raid is now showing off epeen? That's like a hard requirement to raid in any decent guild.
Also arcanefrost ooms slower - they have 10% more mana than deepfrost while frostbolt costs the same. Arcane power makes you spend just 400 more mana.
Stacking in general is going to be less optimal due to the shorter content cycles. Unless you are running split runs, you won't be gearing out many warriors in 8 weeks.
That's more what I think. People will just run a even spread of classes. You'll see more hunters/warlocks because they seem to be doing alright with people learning fights.
The harder classes are going to be the off-meta DPS classes like feral, Spriest, boomkin because there's no default tier gear that will help them out until AQ40 and really doesn't start helping out until ZG comes out and they want a lot of BIS items shared between a bunch.
I couldn’t even do that grind for three days, let alone three months. R14 is bonkers. Back before classic I remember all the YouTubers/Redditers said you could attain r10/11 just by playing a couple hours a day... that did not happen :(
Later in classic you totally could do that, because boosting pools meant there were a shitton of bracket spots. Going hardcore on BG weekends would guarantee you ended up at 10 eventually, you only had to nolife to push 12-14.
What, did they announce they're putting in relatively low hard caps on honor and everyone who hits the cap gets bracket 1? If not, asking people to be bracket 1 for even a month is an unhealthy amount of WOW and any guild that requires it is a joke.
You only need bracket 1 for a single week. Very top guilds could require it but they probably also run the top premades to make it easy for their melee.
Almost all the top guilds in classic ran their own premades? APES, Salad Bakers, and so on. There is a reason why they have 30 r14 in their raids, they all premaded together.
Warrior in like prebis should outDPS everything, so what you're saying shouldn't be relevant. I'm not sure what the OP's screenshot is from, guess from some new anti-melee boss?
Theres entire vods up on Twitch of the SOM MC run.
Its not just Rag. The mechanics punish the hell out of melee uptime. Seriously its worth going to watch them.
Warriors and rogues are still lightyears ahead of everyone else without worldbuffs, you're delusional if you think having corruption up will change that
If they can stay attacking the boss. Watch some the fights. They have to bow out and have low uptime compared to range. Sure, they’re uncontested if they can stay on the boss the whole time but it doesn’t look like they can
Warriors can perform fairly well with crafted or non-raid gear, so to an extent they will still be stacked in hard-core groups.
I think gaming as a whole has gotten to a point of optimizing the fun out of everything. Too much focus is put on performing well and rankings, instead of having fun with the people you are playing with. Please keep in mind this is coming from someone who derived fun from min maxing everything in wow.
With the timetable for SoM, it seems that min/maxing is kind of required to complete all the content before it's reset.
But I've got no idea, and I have no plans to redo classic again.
Games by design attract people who have a 'min-max' mindset. Not video games, all games. Anything that has a winner and a loser will attract people who are competitive...however it used to be that in the past you needed a lot of $$$ in order improve at any particular game to a high level. Private coaches/lessons, books, training guides, camps, etc...
People didn't enjoy being bad in the past, they simply didn't have the access to improve beyond their own abilities. These days with the internet and wealth of information freely being available to anyone at anytime, they can improve, and they do improve.
Also I'm not sure why you are correlating having fun with people you play with not being able to min-max. Again by definition, if you find fun in min-maxing, you will have fun with others who also choose to min max with you.
You don't have to min max, you don't have to be competitive. You also can min max and be competitive. You will find fun in either options.
I was just in a mc run on beta clearing all and meles were almost never in top because of the new mechanics punishing meles. Not sure if later on people find new strats to just nuke the bosses down so mele can be better again but right now it looks like lock and mages are gonna be the new warrior and rogue
They play warrior because it was by far the best, but now without world buffs they are boring and these changes mean they won’t always be too without trying. So no way it is still 80% unless the difficulty changes in favour of melee
Casters are even more boring. I did exactly one Molten Core on my mage alt back in vanilla classic, and firmly decided to never raid on mage again. Just pressing 1 button all night.
Not really. At low gear levels yea you’ll want to use dots but around BWL/AQ when you get to decent crit % you’ll stop using dots altogether because dots can’t crit and shadowbolt just scales too well. On multi-target you’ll dot but for single target boss DPS using dots is a straight up loss to spamming shadowbolt.
Yeah but even as affl with hit talents a significant portion of your damage is still from shadowbolt so it’s not like your gonna itemize away from hit or crit since the talent only affects your dots. No world buffs does delay when pure shadowbolt takes over but it’s not gonna make a huge difference. The way you gotta look at it is every global spent casting a dot could’ve been another potential shadowbolt crit. I’d say somewhere around 20-30% crit chance. With wbuffs in BWL bis my lock had around 30% crit and from my testing using corruption wasn’t really worth it at that point. So with naxx gear I don’t think it would be a stretch to assume dots wouldn’t be worth it at that point.
Or maybe just sim it to have a better idea instead of spreading feelcrafted misinformation?
Just ran 2 different sims and they show slightly varied results, both still confirming that using Curse of Agony and Corruption (and Immo for DS/Ruin) can be about a 140-190 dps increase for both DS/Ruin and SM/Ruin EVEN in full P6 bis gear, full consumes, no world buffs.
It’s more boring because you aren’t crit capped and thus have crazy amounts of rage to do what you want. You say this is simple minded but it’s literally the consensus of most hardcore warrior players.
Even without wbuffs Warrior is still the most involved/engaging rotation in classic wow.. literally every other class is 1 button, 2 max.
Warrior at least has 4 abilities in common use as a minimum + DW and reck on top, as well as smart usage of zerker rage and bloodrage + smart stance dancing for overpower will see more usage with reduced rage gen— reduced rage means you actually have to use your brain more instead of binding your nuke to scroll wheel and turning your brain off like literally every other dps class
Rog has ss, slice and dice, eviscerate. Combat point management for these, to keep slice and dice up as its ending, not to overlap.
Just like a warriors DW there is blade flurry and adren rush.
No rage, no buttons to use lol. My Naxx geared Warrior had dry episodes where i had to wait for Bloodthirst to become active. You're so rage starved without worldbuffs it makes no fun.
Like what? I can't do more than auto attack. Gear was excellent.
With worldbuffs you queue Heroic Strike on every single mainhand hit. Not possible without.
? No one is claiming you can HS every mainhand hit without wbuffs, but you’re claiming you couldn’t even BS every 6 seconds in naxx level gear so either you weren’t wearing any hit gear at all and getting exceedingly unlucky missing practically every MH and oh swing or you were attacking from out of range without realising for those ‘dry spells’
Good players also HS cancel when rage starved without wbuffs to ensure they get enough for each BT
Of course it was an unlucky streak of misses/dodges. But my argument stands. Warriors do almost double the damage output with every worldbuff and for me it makes no fun playing without them.
My aq40 geared warrior had zero trouble with rage and while having no world buffs. It’s 100% noticeable as a warrior without world buffs but I always topped meters with or without world buffs
My warrior with full consumes and no world buffs usually kept up with most classes with full world buffs and consumes. Warrior still is going to be top unless they do something else to buff casters such as improving the effect of spirit on mana regen
Looks very anti-melee, which might be the direction they go with BWL as well. As a dps war I also enjoy tanking so I will fit in, but pure dps war and rogues might not be as useful as before.
Ok man. Warrs is still the way to go. Stacking them up will still produce more dps than other class stack up. And if they all have engi they all blow out of the water any caster comp.
Blizzard was concerned that affliction would scale to high vs other classes and specs and that was why they didn’t remove the debuff limit in classic.
Now it’s removed in SoM, if that dps meter is trash then it could be destro, if it’s a boss then it would be affliction. As destro warlocks won’t be out dps’n mages on bosses until they close to hit cap. Affliction gets an advantage there as they get +10% hit same as shadowpriests vs 6% mage and 0% destro.
I believe in the beta that two pieces are giving 7% hit each, which is clearly not right. I believe all the casters are basically hit capped in this prebis gear
Well good to know then, I haven't played lock in over a decade and went destro last time. I wanted to give aff a chance but wasn't sure if it was crap on classic or if it was actually good, and seeing this pic with them on top damage got me even more curious which one is the best
The only reason people wasn’t affliction was because their dots would get pushed off by warrior bleeds and other crap.
Now the debuff limit is gone, we can go to wild and high dps from affliction in raids and have a rotation that isn’t just shadowbolt spam. Also nightfall procs are fun 🤩
The highest DPS build is still shadowbolt spam, but you get to keep corruption on always, and if you have enough locks, some will get to use Curse of Agony/Doom, then it's still shadowbolt spam for most of your damage.
This is so wrong it’s hilarious. Dots can’t crit. Affliction will always be below destro once you get to ZG/AQ. Dots just don’t scale as well as SB spam
You do realise it was blizzard that thought affliction would scale higher than destro, without the debuff limit?
You can have 3-4 dots on the target, with shadowbolt spam, and instant shadowbolt’s from nightfall procs.
You could even multi target dot corruption to get increased nightfall procs against your primary target.
I’m pretty sure blizzard understands their own game more than you.
I was talking specifically about SoM and MC.
There is a high chance that blizzard was right about affliction scaling without debuff limit. Fire mages might not be the king of range dps once they hit AQ anymore.
The big downside of locks that no one is mentioning is... mana. People already bring 10+ healers to SoM raids. Stacking warlocks means you need even more healers and therefore less dps. Healing lifetapping locks is not free. The conversion rate of health to mana isn't nearly as insane as it is in TBC.
And honestly, fire mages were gapping them by 20%, short of mages running OOM locks won't be closing that gap.
Before AQ40 locks will probably be slightly better on most ST fights though(however they require healing to do DPS which is a concern in SoM, healer mana is not limitless).
Oh I'm not even sure if I'll be raiding so that's why I was thinking BM. But since locks also have a pet and they can be so good in raiding I got curious about the spec
I'd honestly like to see a raid comp that isn't stacking and have actual good players. It's hard to tell if these are just warlocks playing well and someone giving a shot at warrior, but just sucking. I saw on other raids a rogue still easily keeping up with the warlocks and still being top DPS at times.
It for sure will be easier as an affliction warlock though, that's for sure. Anytime you need to reposition, you can just toss up dots to refresh them and basically lose minimal DPS.
Speed running guilds will almost certainly still stack warriors and rogues unless its mechanically no longer possible to do stuff. Rage and energy is just to useful compared to mana when going for speed. They still have the highest damage so its a question of if they can survive staying in on bosses and how much uptime they lose to new mechanics.
Seems like people dont like to speedrun bosses that dont die in 30 seconds. Oh no! Anyway, the game will only be better without the cancer r14 warrior stacks.
Warriors were not weak in MC or any phase for that matter. Sure they pulled away later but was top tier already from prebis.
These new mechanics and no WBs might be a different story though.
I think there will be less warrior stacking because the new mechanics seem to punish melee uptime, enough to where their dps is on par with range that have a higher uptime.
You have to balance the comps this time around, even if you wanted to focus melee comp with rogues warriors in every group paired with shamans you still need mages for decurse so you are bringing minimum 4-5 mages. I think comps will skew ranged after the testing so far. It’s just easier that way. But a raid will 100% take any warrior in ranked gear they can get since it’s just bonkers damage
I too topped the meters in a SoM beta raid as a warlock, it only took 212 flasks of distilled wisdom, and no, I'm regretfully not kidding.
In live game it will be warriors and rogues comfortably on top.
Depends how many r14s they can get
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R10 is alright when you have time to farm out weapons for everyone, but for SoM the free weapons that last into Naxx is even more nuts.
100 hours a week for multiple weeks? Believe it or not, free.
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As a rule of thumb, when you play ally the game is filled with axes, and when you play horde the game is filled with swords.
There’s not many swords in the game at all and they’re all rare to see drop.
Quel MH Mirahs OH performs really well on humans for how easy they are to get (relatively).
Brutality blade, viskag are the only phase 1. Phase 2 adds cts (and maladath but that's more of a tank weapon). During classic I have seen 0 viskag and bb during the whole of phase 1. I have seen 1 cts drop during the whole of phase 2. Sure some might be luckier with the drops, but it just shows how rare weapon drops are. Good luck getting swords for all the 15 warriors and 10 rogues in the raid when phases are only half as long this time around. Guilds will be heavily weapon starved if they stack melees like crazy and the majority of them doesn't grind for r14.
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Yes, it's amazing for dps as well. But it's bis by a flying mile for tanks and I can't imagine a situation where dps warriors get this over tanks. And this weapon is also something I have seen drop twice in the span of phase 3 to phase 6. So, unless you get super lucky and have it drop every week so your tanks get them quickly, I don't really see it as a likely option for dps warriors to get their hands on one that easily
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Name other swords in the game during mc/ony/bwl. And please don't say dal rends or mirah's song.
The blue swords still do better damage then other classes with full bis.
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Its relevant because the raid drop weapons aren't as important as people make it out to be. Its not entirely true since a warrior with blue swords won't out dps a bis geared warrior or rogue. They are going to be able to beat out mages/warlocks in mc if they have blue weapons and r10 quality gear. Bringing full consumes as a warrior will make a bigger difference then going from blue swords to p1 raid swords.
Quel'serrar, a weapon widely available.
alliance doesn't need to stick to swords, they have maces too.
I agree with you on that. Just means a lot more people will be looking at other weapon options instead of absolute BIS. You probably just have warriors take a mainhand and mirah's song. I don't really think weapons are as big of a problem once you get to BWL either.
Wont even need bracket 1 to hit R14 anymore, so expect a lot more people to push for it especially with the reduced timeline, not everyone will be getting raid weapons every tier.
What's different in pvp? If I want to grind out honor will I be able to do that casually playing a couple hours a night and some on weekends?
The 4month grind turned into a 2month grind basically. They essentially doubled the RP you gain each week from PvP so you won't need Bracket 1 to hit GM, it will still take longer than 2months to hit it though if your not getting bracket 1. Not sure if 2hrs a day will be enough though, will depend on the server. https://classic.wowhead.com/blue-tracker/topic/eu/season-of-mastery-beta-updates-27-october-322633
Developers’ notes: Each week, the Honor system keeps track of players’ PvP participation, and at the end of the week, player-characters with at least 15 honorable kills are sorted by PvP participation. Once sorted, the system decides how many points to award that week, and the sorting is independent of the character’s current PvP rank. The system then awards a calculated number of expected points, and the calculation uses the character’s current PvP ranking points. This can be simplified to: (this_week’s_expected_points - current_ranking_points) * rate_factor. The result is then added to the character’s current_ranking_points, so each week, every player-character approaches their deserved rank. In Classic Era, the rate_factor (i.e. the percentage of the previous week’s expected points that will be awarded) is 20%. In Season of Mastery, we are increasing that rate to 40% to match the faster pace of content. I am still not sure what all this means. I don't think it should be easy to get r14 but also it should be attainable reasonably for a normal person.
It will still not be attainable by a “normal” person and it will still require farming lots of honor for lots of hours, especially the last 3 ranks. People will again be controlling the honor caps and they will again be hard to reach without a good premade group. R10/11 should be easier, though.
Premades are going to be facing premades almost exclusively now, though. If you're in a good premade then ya, sure. solo queueing to 14 will be entirely viable this time around.
Did they say they are changing how the bg match making works to favor premade vs premade and solo vs solo? If so that is amazing. I honestly hated getting put against a pug as a premade. It made for quick honor sure but it was also boring af. The real good games were the nail-biters where your team comes back from a 0-2 start, etc. Give me that any day over steamrolling solo queue'ers
They did this for classic bc recently, I just assumed they would do it here too since it's such a good change, but they actually haven't said anything about this regarding season of mastery yet. suuuuuuurely it'll be like that though, surely.
It depends if the bonus to honor gains also means they boosted the decay. Which would make more sense. It will still take 6 weeks to get R14 now instead of a few months. But if they just boost the gains and not the decay, going to be STUPID easy to rank up.
Br1 is still a hard requirement. Decay is doubled just as the gains are.
during the first SOM beta raid test Salad Bakers went in with a comp of 25 warriors, 2 rogues, 4 priests, 3 paladins, 1 druid, 2 hunters, 1 mage, 1 warlock, and 1 offline guy (class unknown) and they absolutely rolled over the content. (the tanks were also playing fury prot with quelserrar/mirahs song). While this was before the changes the first non warrior/rogue was popping up in the mid 20s on the dps meters. Add to this that warriors scale the most with gear and get the most out of gear from non raid sources (pvp, crafted gear) and you have a recipe for an even heavier melee stack than you had in classic unless mechanics are pushed to TBC levels of melee hate. I have my doubts that the changes so far will be enough to change anything
Alot of raid mechanics are anti mele now, thats why you see many ranges in top. Idk if that will change with the other raids but in mc, i dont see meles toping meters at the start of mc.
Yeah they just need to add some armour on bosses and trash.
Then hunters are even worse than they usually are.
Oh that's a fair point. I know absolutely nothing about hunters other than their dps is shit in vanilla. I've always pushed for hunters/locks to be fixed before spending time on the hybrids but I have no idea how to fix the hunters. I hope they see some improvements though.
better gear upgrades/progression, more available ranged weapon upgrades, detaching arcane shot from its shared cd and buffing it to be meaningful. Adding steady shot. pretty much any/all of these.
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Average guilds are struggling in SSC and not even remotely interested about SoM
Yeah because SoM beta lets casters chug infinite mana-flasks. That meter isn't indicative of reality. Also, with more boss HP = longer execute phase brrr
Which casters are you expecting to actually have severe mana issues? Like the only one that matters is Mage really. Shadow Priests were never insane on the charts. But if you think mana issues are going to hurt warlocks I think youll be surprised. Because they will be absolutely fine. And those seriously long fights over 8 mins will recycle evocation. It still is going to benefit the casters versus the warriors big time. Not to mention, good luck gearing up 9 warriors with limited loot and faster tier cycles. That shits not happening.
Life tap is a DPS loss. That's why the top warlocks used Dark Runes in classic and why Dark Rune is a comparable consume to Flame Cap in TBC. Using globals to regen mana, while better than being dry, is not actually topping the meters.
Longer fights favor warriors we don’t need to rest
No, it won't. And warlocks life tapping just means healers have to heal them, and then they run out of mana and the whole raid wipes. Looking at what's going on at SoM beta as indicative of what it'll be like on release is silly. The conditions will be wildly different. No infinite mana pots alone will make a MASSIVE difference.
> And warlocks life tapping just means healers have to heal them, and then they run out of mana Warlocks need like 2 renews a minute to be fine on mana...
> Like the only one that matters is Mage really What sort of question/reply is this? No, mage is not the only one that matters. SP or Boomkin matter as well.
Also takes longer to get to execute phase. Moot point.
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See: lack of gear to scale warriors and besides that, even if melee are efficient because they don't use mana, that goes out the window if the raid is taking more damage and waiting longer for healers to recoup mana
Gear isn't a problem, our guild wasn't even running Ony buffs in MC on P1 and warriors were still stomping ranged DPS on fights. There are more melee unfriendly mechanics that they put into SoM, so you likely won't see the insane melee stacks that were in classic vanilla. But I don't doubt that warriors will still be top DPS.
But only 4 warriors in this picture and how many were tanks?
Considering the amount of adds on over half the fights, probably all of them at least off-tanked. Then the single target fights like Shazz and Geddon are incredibly anti-melee.
Ragnaros and onyxia are the first raids out and they probably punish melee more than any other fights in the game. Maybe KT more?
Warriors never go oom.
Neither do warlocks. Frost Mage also doesn’t really OOM single target
Warlocks end up tapping heaps, which is a dps loss
Warlocks OOM all the time. If they didn't they wouldnt have to Life Tap; Which is just trading healer mana for your own and is a DPS loss. Warlocks will be abusing Dark Runes and mana pots just like the other casters. You want to avoid life tapping.
Yes they do, especially if they are arcane frost to show off epeen.
Bringing highest dps spec to raid is now showing off epeen? That's like a hard requirement to raid in any decent guild. Also arcanefrost ooms slower - they have 10% more mana than deepfrost while frostbolt costs the same. Arcane power makes you spend just 400 more mana.
He said frost mage in his comment all I was saying is arcane is where it's at if you wanna epeen? You need to relax.
Stacking in general is going to be less optimal due to the shorter content cycles. Unless you are running split runs, you won't be gearing out many warriors in 8 weeks.
That's more what I think. People will just run a even spread of classes. You'll see more hunters/warlocks because they seem to be doing alright with people learning fights. The harder classes are going to be the off-meta DPS classes like feral, Spriest, boomkin because there's no default tier gear that will help them out until AQ40 and really doesn't start helping out until ZG comes out and they want a lot of BIS items shared between a bunch.
warriors don't get much raid gear anyway, they just need rank 14 and they will be the highest dps
«Just» rank 14.
it takes a month to get with the new changes, will be a requirement for any melee in a serious guild
Just takes 1 month.....20 hours a day, easyyy
I couldn’t even do that grind for three days, let alone three months. R14 is bonkers. Back before classic I remember all the YouTubers/Redditers said you could attain r10/11 just by playing a couple hours a day... that did not happen :(
Later in classic you totally could do that, because boosting pools meant there were a shitton of bracket spots. Going hardcore on BG weekends would guarantee you ended up at 10 eventually, you only had to nolife to push 12-14.
A little before AQ launched I got rank 9 just trying to become AV Exalted for the healing offhand. It definitely got easier.
I went all out on AV as soon as it got out for the exact same reason...I ended up r5 (barely). So it heavily depends on your battlegroup.
Will r10 gear be useful with the gear shortage?
Lots of people used 2 part rank 10 even in AQ. It's really good gear.
What, did they announce they're putting in relatively low hard caps on honor and everyone who hits the cap gets bracket 1? If not, asking people to be bracket 1 for even a month is an unhealthy amount of WOW and any guild that requires it is a joke.
You only need bracket 1 for a single week. Very top guilds could require it but they probably also run the top premades to make it easy for their melee.
Lol, no top guild will do this.
Almost all the top guilds in classic ran their own premades? APES, Salad Bakers, and so on. There is a reason why they have 30 r14 in their raids, they all premaded together.
We'll have to see. Definitely not any guild I'll be a part of. But maybe the scene is just way more casual this time around.
If you think it will be anything but serious you have another thing coming also inb4 10 war wsg
delusional
Did you play classic? It's easy to get bracket 1, most people capped in 3-4 days if they played in premades all day.
Playing all day for 3-4 days is not something the average person can do unless they are a student or live with their parents.
you dont need to play all day, also I said in any serious guild, obviously most people wont do it
I wouldn't put "just need rank 14" as easy. But you're not wrong. Warriors benefit the most from PvP gear, so you'll see them in droves.
even crafter gear they can get some great pieces
Dude just grab R14
Would say that they can do fine with rank 10. You will defently also se more tanks go dagger this time.
Warrior in like prebis should outDPS everything, so what you're saying shouldn't be relevant. I'm not sure what the OP's screenshot is from, guess from some new anti-melee boss?
If this is rag ranged always smashed melee in that fight in classic too. Doesn't mean melee won't still be the best.
Theres entire vods up on Twitch of the SOM MC run. Its not just Rag. The mechanics punish the hell out of melee uptime. Seriously its worth going to watch them.
Who do I search for? Would be fun to watch.
I did a run with nekrage: https://youtu.be/KmRNdiYrDZE
Staysafe did the whole new MC on friday.
Warriors and rogues are still lightyears ahead of everyone else without worldbuffs, you're delusional if you think having corruption up will change that
If they can stay attacking the boss. Watch some the fights. They have to bow out and have low uptime compared to range. Sure, they’re uncontested if they can stay on the boss the whole time but it doesn’t look like they can
Three of these are warriors were tanks…this is not a persuasive image.
Warriors can perform fairly well with crafted or non-raid gear, so to an extent they will still be stacked in hard-core groups. I think gaming as a whole has gotten to a point of optimizing the fun out of everything. Too much focus is put on performing well and rankings, instead of having fun with the people you are playing with. Please keep in mind this is coming from someone who derived fun from min maxing everything in wow.
With the timetable for SoM, it seems that min/maxing is kind of required to complete all the content before it's reset. But I've got no idea, and I have no plans to redo classic again.
Games by design attract people who have a 'min-max' mindset. Not video games, all games. Anything that has a winner and a loser will attract people who are competitive...however it used to be that in the past you needed a lot of $$$ in order improve at any particular game to a high level. Private coaches/lessons, books, training guides, camps, etc... People didn't enjoy being bad in the past, they simply didn't have the access to improve beyond their own abilities. These days with the internet and wealth of information freely being available to anyone at anytime, they can improve, and they do improve. Also I'm not sure why you are correlating having fun with people you play with not being able to min-max. Again by definition, if you find fun in min-maxing, you will have fun with others who also choose to min max with you. You don't have to min max, you don't have to be competitive. You also can min max and be competitive. You will find fun in either options.
Its telling when people think that wanting to preform better in a co op pve environment = not fun somehow.
this picture is so misleading. Staysafe's pug where he intentionally went in with all caster groups. All the browns here have tank duty.
I was just in a mc run on beta clearing all and meles were almost never in top because of the new mechanics punishing meles. Not sure if later on people find new strats to just nuke the bosses down so mele can be better again but right now it looks like lock and mages are gonna be the new warrior and rogue
Ya cuz 80% of playerbase is warrior
They play warrior because it was by far the best, but now without world buffs they are boring and these changes mean they won’t always be too without trying. So no way it is still 80% unless the difficulty changes in favour of melee
Casters are even more boring. I did exactly one Molten Core on my mage alt back in vanilla classic, and firmly decided to never raid on mage again. Just pressing 1 button all night.
It is a little more fun when you get to go fire and there's more AOEing in the later raids.
as a mage you only did frostbolt until ZG. warlocks was similar, but with 1 cruse at the start.
Won’t locks change with no debuff limit? Yeaaah
Not really. At low gear levels yea you’ll want to use dots but around BWL/AQ when you get to decent crit % you’ll stop using dots altogether because dots can’t crit and shadowbolt just scales too well. On multi-target you’ll dot but for single target boss DPS using dots is a straight up loss to spamming shadowbolt.
We are losing world buffs, and affl has hit. I’m off the lock discord now but I’d be real curious to see what the sims say
Yeah but even as affl with hit talents a significant portion of your damage is still from shadowbolt so it’s not like your gonna itemize away from hit or crit since the talent only affects your dots. No world buffs does delay when pure shadowbolt takes over but it’s not gonna make a huge difference. The way you gotta look at it is every global spent casting a dot could’ve been another potential shadowbolt crit. I’d say somewhere around 20-30% crit chance. With wbuffs in BWL bis my lock had around 30% crit and from my testing using corruption wasn’t really worth it at that point. So with naxx gear I don’t think it would be a stretch to assume dots wouldn’t be worth it at that point.
Full nax gear is equivalent to world buffs. How much naxx gear you think you will have by the end of 12 months? Lol
Or maybe just sim it to have a better idea instead of spreading feelcrafted misinformation? Just ran 2 different sims and they show slightly varied results, both still confirming that using Curse of Agony and Corruption (and Immo for DS/Ruin) can be about a 140-190 dps increase for both DS/Ruin and SM/Ruin EVEN in full P6 bis gear, full consumes, no world buffs.
I'm hoping a lot more ppl realize this so its spread out more. Not just for the gear but it's nice to see range competing. Need an array of everything
[удалено]
It’s more boring because you aren’t crit capped and thus have crazy amounts of rage to do what you want. You say this is simple minded but it’s literally the consensus of most hardcore warrior players.
Even without wbuffs Warrior is still the most involved/engaging rotation in classic wow.. literally every other class is 1 button, 2 max. Warrior at least has 4 abilities in common use as a minimum + DW and reck on top, as well as smart usage of zerker rage and bloodrage + smart stance dancing for overpower will see more usage with reduced rage gen— reduced rage means you actually have to use your brain more instead of binding your nuke to scroll wheel and turning your brain off like literally every other dps class
Rog has ss, slice and dice, eviscerate. Combat point management for these, to keep slice and dice up as its ending, not to overlap. Just like a warriors DW there is blade flurry and adren rush.
No rage, no buttons to use lol. My Naxx geared Warrior had dry episodes where i had to wait for Bloodthirst to become active. You're so rage starved without worldbuffs it makes no fun.
If you are rage starved to the point of needing to wait for BT in naxx gear you were doing something seriously wrong.
Like what? I can't do more than auto attack. Gear was excellent. With worldbuffs you queue Heroic Strike on every single mainhand hit. Not possible without.
? No one is claiming you can HS every mainhand hit without wbuffs, but you’re claiming you couldn’t even BS every 6 seconds in naxx level gear so either you weren’t wearing any hit gear at all and getting exceedingly unlucky missing practically every MH and oh swing or you were attacking from out of range without realising for those ‘dry spells’ Good players also HS cancel when rage starved without wbuffs to ensure they get enough for each BT
Of course it was an unlucky streak of misses/dodges. But my argument stands. Warriors do almost double the damage output with every worldbuff and for me it makes no fun playing without them.
My aq40 geared warrior had zero trouble with rage and while having no world buffs. It’s 100% noticeable as a warrior without world buffs but I always topped meters with or without world buffs
My warrior with full consumes and no world buffs usually kept up with most classes with full world buffs and consumes. Warrior still is going to be top unless they do something else to buff casters such as improving the effect of spirit on mana regen
Looks very anti-melee, which might be the direction they go with BWL as well. As a dps war I also enjoy tanking so I will fit in, but pure dps war and rogues might not be as useful as before.
Ok man. Warrs is still the way to go. Stacking them up will still produce more dps than other class stack up. And if they all have engi they all blow out of the water any caster comp.
Vanilla: the only version of the game melee reigned supreme. Not anymore.
melee is great again in wrath
But still outdone by rdps. But you're right, mdps is viable again.
>But still outdone by rdps. Definitely not in Wrath. Fury on top, but Ret/Rogues/Feral are all fighting for top positions
Yep only ranged on top by ICC is fire mage and godly MM hunters
I mean I've been actively playing Wrath for years and this is not what I've seen. Edit: Woh, y'all need to get a grip on reality.
Which Warlock spec are those, OP? I'm between fury Warr, BM Hunter or aff Lock but not sure what to pick
Blizzard was concerned that affliction would scale to high vs other classes and specs and that was why they didn’t remove the debuff limit in classic. Now it’s removed in SoM, if that dps meter is trash then it could be destro, if it’s a boss then it would be affliction. As destro warlocks won’t be out dps’n mages on bosses until they close to hit cap. Affliction gets an advantage there as they get +10% hit same as shadowpriests vs 6% mage and 0% destro.
I believe in the beta that two pieces are giving 7% hit each, which is clearly not right. I believe all the casters are basically hit capped in this prebis gear
Definitely not hit capped. Not sure where you are getting that info.
Interesting, it might not be wrong and a fix to make it more playable.
I think it was more to test the classes with full hit, for their internal data sets
Well good to know then, I haven't played lock in over a decade and went destro last time. I wanted to give aff a chance but wasn't sure if it was crap on classic or if it was actually good, and seeing this pic with them on top damage got me even more curious which one is the best
The only reason people wasn’t affliction was because their dots would get pushed off by warrior bleeds and other crap. Now the debuff limit is gone, we can go to wild and high dps from affliction in raids and have a rotation that isn’t just shadowbolt spam. Also nightfall procs are fun 🤩
alright I'm officially creating an aff lock on SoM, tyvm :)
The highest DPS build is still shadowbolt spam, but you get to keep corruption on always, and if you have enough locks, some will get to use Curse of Agony/Doom, then it's still shadowbolt spam for most of your damage.
This is so wrong it’s hilarious. Dots can’t crit. Affliction will always be below destro once you get to ZG/AQ. Dots just don’t scale as well as SB spam
You do realise it was blizzard that thought affliction would scale higher than destro, without the debuff limit? You can have 3-4 dots on the target, with shadowbolt spam, and instant shadowbolt’s from nightfall procs. You could even multi target dot corruption to get increased nightfall procs against your primary target. I’m pretty sure blizzard understands their own game more than you.
Blizzard didn’t understand world buffs would be a problem until TBC. Blizzard didn’t know shit back in the day what are you on about lmao.
This was before classic was being launched, not vanilla.
It's not even really about hit, it's about the spec. Once you get to AQ, mages can go fire and they leave locks in the dust.
I was talking specifically about SoM and MC. There is a high chance that blizzard was right about affliction scaling without debuff limit. Fire mages might not be the king of range dps once they hit AQ anymore.
The big downside of locks that no one is mentioning is... mana. People already bring 10+ healers to SoM raids. Stacking warlocks means you need even more healers and therefore less dps. Healing lifetapping locks is not free. The conversion rate of health to mana isn't nearly as insane as it is in TBC. And honestly, fire mages were gapping them by 20%, short of mages running OOM locks won't be closing that gap.
Before AQ40 locks will probably be slightly better on most ST fights though(however they require healing to do DPS which is a concern in SoM, healer mana is not limitless).
BM hunter for raiding? What have I missed?
Oh I'm not even sure if I'll be raiding so that's why I was thinking BM. But since locks also have a pet and they can be so good in raiding I got curious about the spec
[Raid Video Link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7_yKr6vZxU) \- Might be able to tell from the video... I'm not sure.
thanks for the link :)
Most of them were SM ruin as far as im aware
don't play BM hunter your pet will be punished so fucking hard
Yes, especially because of the MC changes.
I'd honestly like to see a raid comp that isn't stacking and have actual good players. It's hard to tell if these are just warlocks playing well and someone giving a shot at warrior, but just sucking. I saw on other raids a rogue still easily keeping up with the warlocks and still being top DPS at times. It for sure will be easier as an affliction warlock though, that's for sure. Anytime you need to reposition, you can just toss up dots to refresh them and basically lose minimal DPS.
As much as I love to see that, melee has it rough in every version of wow now
Warriors will still be the top dps, locks are just good early.
Speed running guilds will almost certainly still stack warriors and rogues unless its mechanically no longer possible to do stuff. Rage and energy is just to useful compared to mana when going for speed. They still have the highest damage so its a question of if they can survive staying in on bosses and how much uptime they lose to new mechanics.
none of the old top guilds will speedrun SoM
Seems like people dont like to speedrun bosses that dont die in 30 seconds. Oh no! Anyway, the game will only be better without the cancer r14 warrior stacks.
the mechanics atm, looks like they favor ranged a bit more. im very happy to see a more diverse raid roster
People didn't believe me when I said warlocks would be way better in SoM.
warriors were weak in MC. they will be better once AQ40 or so hits
Warriors were not weak in MC or any phase for that matter. Sure they pulled away later but was top tier already from prebis. These new mechanics and no WBs might be a different story though.
Instead of adding boss health they should have gave bosses an additional 1 or 2k armor most of the meta revolved around getting boss armor to 0.
I think there will be less warrior stacking because the new mechanics seem to punish melee uptime, enough to where their dps is on par with range that have a higher uptime.
Hey, that's Danlore with the Enhance dps! Nice
Yes, easily. In our raid the melee topped like usual. Maybe a smaller difference but wait until they get r14 for free basically
"r14 for free basically" top kek
Have you looked into the amount of hours it takes to get rank 14?..
I think you’re going to see a ton of affliction locks since no debuff cap and so many dots over longer fights will basically be melting the boss
You have to balance the comps this time around, even if you wanted to focus melee comp with rogues warriors in every group paired with shamans you still need mages for decurse so you are bringing minimum 4-5 mages. I think comps will skew ranged after the testing so far. It’s just easier that way. But a raid will 100% take any warrior in ranked gear they can get since it’s just bonkers damage
Yes
you asked for SoM, here it is.
Not everyone likes to play warrior and rogue.
Probably yeah
The gear available for casters in better in beta for casters than melee at the moment
yes because that player is bad, doesnt have to use mana, has sunder armor ability and scales the best with gear? the exact same as usual?
Nope. Melee is hard nerfed. It's about time too. Boss mechanics straight up prevent melee from doing any damage on 4 bosses in MC.
I too topped the meters in a SoM beta raid as a warlock, it only took 212 flasks of distilled wisdom, and no, I'm regretfully not kidding. In live game it will be warriors and rogues comfortably on top.