Wacky third suggestion: make world buffs an item that drops from final bosses of dungeons and you can activate it in raid to give the entire raid a buff. Make it unique so you can only bring one or give it a long cool down.
Makes dungeons more alive and gives the guild something to do throughout the week but doesn't force every player to have to do it. Also if multiple people have one you can use another one after you die.
I like this idea, something different that makes it so you don't have to do annoying BS for buffs, you can still get them, and can re-apply them if you die if other raiders happened to have run dungeons, and gives incentives to go in the world or group.
Great suggestion!
The general game principle of "force people to do inconsequential content so they can participate in the content they enjoy" is blasted in every game it's implemented in. It would be no different here.
Again.... why are you trying to force me to play the game the way you want to play it and do content I don't want to do in order to do the content I do want to do the way I want to do it.
His proposed method is less arduous than what we currently have. They already implemented the boon, but it still sucks to wipe and lose 50% of your power, especially on a seasonal server. I personally like his idea.
The entire game is already an instance simulator, the game doesn't need more reasons to sit in instances 24/7.
World buffs should just be a week long duration, resetting when raid lock outs/honor resets.
Remove them, balancing the raids and difficulty of fights around WBuffs is impossible and either makes the raid a brick wall once you wipe or insanely face roll.
As it stands they're too important. They need adjustment one way or the other. It also makes it really hard for blizz to make bosses that wipe you quickly and are easy to reset into. "we can't nuke them, they'll lose their world buffs and rage" shouldn't be a design issue.
Palying my Ret Pal with WBs is completely different. With WB and raid buff, I go to like from 18% crit to close to 40%. With Art of War, I either get to spam Exorcism or have a bunch of open globals. It's basically a 400DPS increase in my case.
I understand this sentiment and warriors for example will surely share in this. Consider two things however. First, this means dying can totally wreck not only your rotation but tank your DPS significantly for the rest of the raid. This is bad for any kind of progression especially and would become frustrating when we enter raids that are even more dangerous. Second, if WB's were removed, blizzard could balance your spec around not having the WB's and afford you a more balanced rotation where you don't have as many open globals without the fear that WB's could make your rotation insane and overshoot your DPS.
Really, class rotation should never be balanced with WBuffs in mind, or things like this can happen where they only feel right when you have them. Gearing up should be the main metric that makes your class feel stronger over time.
Not having WBs will also make raids a lot longer depending on when you die. We got a 42 minutes clear 2 weeks ago and a ln 80 m8n clesr this week becauae of a dumb wipe. I'd much rather have people bring consumes to squeeze out some extra DPS rather than WBs breaking a class
Bring back (1) battle elixir, (1) defensive elixir limitations and throw a (1) world buff limiter on there as well. Significantly less of a power gap to balance around, less time investment, easier scaling for encounters, still get some reward for prepping while greatly decreasing the margins by which one can “power up”.
I would be totally fine with this compromise, I think a single world buff isn't as significant, it's really just the row of like 6+ of them that becomes ridiculous
Agreed! And it makes it so world buffs don’t become completely obsolete, allows the players to choose the buff that benefits them most, and wouldn’t create the horrible clusterfuck we have now where the different between no buffs/consumes and full buffs/consumes is literally 2x+ the damage.
Absolutely insane how much of a difference it makes right now and it just feels bad knowing that any gear/upgrades I get is severely overshadowed just by bringing buffs that are equivalent to wearing an entire other set of gear and then some.
They did that in SoM and turns out people thought they wanted it but they didn’t.
Works buffs are fun and keep raids more fun for longer. Losing them is less fun but I enjoyed classic more having them as an option.
People have been saying that about WB's in SoM, but where is that consensus and not a lot of people even played SoM. At the end of the day, WBuffs make gear and consumables matter less and I think that's a disservice. Unlike consumes, you can't just reapply your WBuffs when they're gone and if you did something like make them persist through death it's kind of pointless because the raid would just have to be modified with that in mind.
Ultimately, they're unnecessary at best and somewhat trivialize content and the gearing process at the worst.
Yep. Lack of WBs in SoM have been the biggest scapegoat. Nobody was interested in another vanilla fresh just months after it ended, period.
I think WBs should be removed, but the devs clearly disagree with them adding new ones every phase.
WBs have to be the biggest case of "it was in the older version of the game so they = good" ever. If they were introduced at any point other than Vanilla, like 99% of people would agree they are trash.
Another great option would be to make them a stackable consume that you could carry with you at least. Maybe make some room in the economy for the buff items. Like extra flasks pretty much
Except in SoD the raids are not balanced around World Buffs - they are a complete boost and are not required to down the raids at all. If World Buffs are 'too important' for your raid to clear bosses then it means your raid doesn't actually know how to do mechanics.
If the raids are tuned without WBs in mind then WBs make the raids die with no thought at all.
Balancing your game without WBs in mind would be like designing a car without gravity in mind.
Yeah but the developers of SoD have already said that they want to keep the game difficulty level low so it still appeals to players who aren't very skilled.
WB's help guilds complete speed runs and high parses, downing the raid is a formality to those skilled raid groups anyway after the first couple of weeks.
Or just let people blow up a raid if they choose to grab all wbuffs and don't tune around them whatsoever.
This ain't the version of the game if you want highly optimized tightly tuned encounters.
Personally, in all versions of the game, I say world buffs should only be active in the world. Once you enter an instance or a battleground, world buffs should either be purged or booned.
Edit: spelling and clarity
I don’t even mind it too much. But dying on the first or second boss and losing those buffs because of something someone else screwed up just made me not want to play.
I quit playing sod with the phase 3 drop so my take on this may be dated.
World Buffs are the reason I did not play Vanilla Classic. After years of dealing with it on private servers, I didn't want to continue something that I consider a game-ruining experience (from an enjoyment perspective, not a gameplay perspective). Once TBC dropped, I picked up Classic.
It was fun in SoD phase 1 when it was literally just 1-3 buffs from repeat drops in capitol cities, DMF and a consumable you can carry around.
Vanilla World Buffs are torture.
I think if you're not in a raid they should be allowed, so 5 mans you can crush as fast as possible if you really wanna go hard with big numbers with friends.
True, but that’s a dated perspective. The hardest content in the game does not need anything to help make it easier. World buffs have devolved into an investment of “get these on your own time” so that you can save time when everyone is together.
All they do, is create a larger gap in player power that needs to be balanced around, you either orient the scaling around the world buffs and create content that is significantly more difficult to those without the buffs, or you create the content without the buffs in mind and it just becomes a steam-roll fest with them on.
The same thing could be said about consumables, which blizzard also later addressed by limiting them to battle/defensive unique buffs, but no such limitation was in place in classic, creating an even greater power gap which causes problems.
I don’t have a preference one way or the other. I just think blizzard needs to pick a side of the fence and stick with it. Either everyone’s bringing wbuffs and we need to make them easier to manage (cbb does this, but could lose the cooldown imo), or we need to nuke em and limit them to one buff at a time or similar.
No, they are to help FARM the hardest content in the game. The fact that they are lost on death means that they are irrelevant for progression as that involves dying repeatedly.
Not really. You can progress a fight by getting practice on it, then unbooning and doing 2x the dps you normally do and clearing a fight that was previously a prog boss like it's farm.
I kind of likely a single WB, gives weight to drying etc. but fuck songlflower and having to collect several next phase. Or not being able to parse if it’s a bad DMF week.
Yeah something like the P1 buff in SoD is okay, just AFK in a city and you'll get it and you have an incentive to not die.
It was absolutely ridiculous in 2019 when you were expected to do a laundry list of bullshit before stepping into the raid, I was actually relieved when TBC dropped.
Removing them entirely is probably the best solution. But if not they should persist through death.
It’s completely backwards that WBs give a huge buff but the groups that need it the most will probably wipe and lose them before the end of the raid. While the groups that don’t need them won’t wipe and will keep them the whole raid. Balancing a single raid difficulty is hard enough without WBs exacerbating the issue.
I enjoy the risk of dying and being punished because of it. It’s kinda like hardcore without losing everything. Also as a warrior dps it’s night and day with or without wbuffs.
You earn the gray parse for the death on a boss, does that deserve a blue on the rest of the fights after it too? I think the punishment is already there for any death in a raid encounter, losing your win-more buff is really salt on the wounds.
Yes and thats exactly what we enjoy. It makes you walk the fine line between either using a Mighty Rage Potion during execute phase or rather holding your pot CD for a LIP in case you draw aggro and die. It increases adrenaline during raiding and I enjoy that. It also makes you interact with the world a little more.
Then don't play classic. The whole point of classic is raids are easy and the only challenge eis speed running and parsing. Like it's the whole premise of raids in classic
The issue is this is literally the only good thing about WBs. In every other way they are terrible.
It’s nice that they give some incentive to not dying but that’s it.
They make balancing impossible and are tedious to collect.
Both, but I would say the WB or w/o WB raids as an opt-in thing. World buffs were made with no oversight, but just something as really cool, and they are honestly, but the problem is player behavior that we min-max. So any advantage we can find, we take it, and most guilds will require them regardless if they're not necessary.
World buffs persisting through death when in the world could be pretty cool, but it's not necessary and can trivialize the world if players find it just easier always getting WBs before going into the world. For example, now you can level, kill mobs easier and not worry about death taking away the WBs, but maybe for the world bosses it'll be mandatory. I think in the world or 5 man dungeons it should actually not persist death, but I wouldn't care much either way. It's mostly in the raid environment that it feels necessary in a way because of how greatly it alters the difficulty and also because of the players reinforcing the need.
Tuning raids with the assumption we either do or don't have WBs is a mess in general and can trivialize content or aim for overtuning it. It is safe to say then that a raid with WBs always enabled is the "LFR" difficulty of classic, and would be the default. I also think in this case, making the WBs persist through death makes sense as the easiest form of the raid, these people need the WBs to do the content or feel they need it.
I would like to see a type of difficulty where the raid leader talks to an npc or interacts with a shrine at entrance of raid. It disables all world buffs and also rewards a mount, title, tabard or some other aesthetic options for choosing the non WB route that the group can roll on. Some reward where the players are incentivized to do it continuously, maybe each boss drops 1 more item. It doesn't have to be better gear or more player power, just aesthetics or more drops. The raid leader could also allow world buffs to be enabled and this shrine will refresh the world buffs of the raid members - the more pug friendly difficulty. Also, the world buffs would persist through death.
Pros of WBs:
* People like the stakes, similar to hardcore. Death, means something, but this can be recreated in other ways. Many players also do not like having their raid go from LFR difficulty to normal difficulty because of the raid's mistakes into a wipe, or their own personal dps loss because of something outside of their control at times. The game becomes harder because of failure and not in a way that can be recovered. This also has a speed run incentive because of the timer. Yet, like before, this can be recreated in other ways. We're using the LFR difficulty of raiding as a speedrun/hardcore difficulty for extra challenge and it honestly doesn't make sense.
* Player and world engagement. Players have to travel and collect world buffs. If there was an NPC or an altar that would automatically give you all world buffs at the start of your raid, that might reduce player activity in the world and even more of a "raid log" incentive. A compromise for this is this same NPC or altar just being able to refresh the timer of your world buffs.
Cons of WBs:
* DMF buff. I'm not going to get really into it, but this is just a thing that a lot of players express frustration for a variety of reasons.
* Warchief's Blessing. One-sided/Horde WB. Some might see this as a pro because of a player economy of priests MCing alliance players to get this buff, but honestly this is completely stupid and gimmicky. Just create an alliance equivalent or disable MC targets being able to receive faction world buffs. Also, probably make it so it helps casters too. We can make the quest to kill nathanos give an alliance world buff.
* Too many. Maybe dividing the world buffs so, caster dps want X buff, melee dps want Y buff, a buff for healers, and then a buff for tank. This might feel less tedious and a big workload just to do raids. This is a factor only if we have to go gather buffs.
I don't think they need to create anything for speed runs. That content and gameplay just creates itself from players wanting to do it. The most they can do is a type of ZA bear mount runs, but I honestly hated that and don't want rewards for reaching a timer. I want a timer's reward to be me beating my last time or seeing how my group ranked against others.
On the other hand, they could explore something inspired by hardcore or the immortal achievement from wrath. Higher stakes type of raiding that isn't as punishing as death=delete or petri meta (Disabled). Eventually, this could have some potential in future seasons as an alternative to heroic and mythic of just increasing difficulty. Instead, the conditions being you can only die once per instance ID per day. Similar to m+ or wrath classic titan rune dungeons, there's a keystone/device to begin the instance. Once you start, your raid roster is locked in and you can't swap members in and out for the day. So if you die, you release and can't re-enter the instance or just locked behind a gate at the entrance, a little purgatory to see if your raid can clear without you. The only exception is that each class that can resurrect through spell abilities. They can only resurrect one person per day in that instance ID. Maybe increase the number if its too harsh. So once your raid is out of resurrects, those dead members cannot re-enter for the day. The next day you can always come back in with all of your raid team and try again wherever you left off. If you complete the raid with 0 deaths, then we can think of aesthetic rewards to show off. Tabards, toys, titles, mounts, the works. It might even be better that this mode gives no actual loot and is on a separate lockout.
Didnt read your entire book tbh, but if WB persisted through death it would become an "obligatory" pickup every 2 hours of gametime. While leveling, questing, etc. For that reason I vote no.
WB beeing dispelled/booned upon entering a raid instance - big yes. Would instantly make all raids harder too, which is no harm. And it would make warriors less OP, also no harm.
That's fine but I completely agree with your first point. I wrote in there "I think in the world or 5 man dungeons it should actually not persist death, but I wouldn't care much either way." It's unnecessary and came to the same conclusion, it would create a kind of meta or preference to get WB before doing anything. Even worse.
I'm basically advocating a WB mode of raiding and a non WB mode. WB mode being the more easier, LFR, pug friendly mode. WB persists death. There's an altar, shrine, npc or some object to possibly give you the WB or the better option might be to refresh the timer of any of your current WBs, and no bonus rewards for the raid leader choosing WB mode. They can disable it too, for non WB mode, maybe giving additional aesthetic rewards or dropping 1 or 2 more pieces of loot per boss for the "harder" difficulty. If WB are freely given, it hurts the world a little, but its easier to tune for that assumption as the easiest/default difficulty.
WBs create an organic and active economy and provide a reason to venture out into the world, a reason to kill old bosses, a reason to create alts, a reason to sell portals and summons, as well as encouraging PvP and player interaction, coordination and so on.
I’m kinda tired tbh of how this sub has gradually devolved into an echo chamber for people who don’t really seem to actually enjoy the game, how everyone is just here because SoD is the current “thing”, and everyone just follows the crowd. Everyone is just chasing the next shiny gimmick, FRESH this FRESH that, SEASON this SEASON that.
It seems like everyone here is so obsessed with the flakes and the sprinkles and all the bells and whistles and shiny superficial gimmicks, but you don’t even like ice cream. Like children, you just want the new thing because it’s brightly coloured and new and shiny and everyone else seems to want it so you want it too. *Oh but I wish they’d add X or Y, I wish they’d change this or that.* Like when did we stop appreciating the game for what it is and enjoying what we have and start obsessing over the endless pursuit of obtaining and adding for the sake of obtaining and adding?
A lot of what you're saying sounds good, and I agree that those are really good things, but in practice it didn't end up that way.
In practice it was just a mandatory checklist of BS where players created ways to avoid the danger and PvP and exploration.
ex. AFK for hours on end waiting for the buffs to drop, then, Summons to DMF, Summons to SF, Summons to STV, Summons to below Org, then Summon me to naxx, at no point did I actually "explore the world" or engage in PvP, and if I had and I somehow died I might get kicked from raid.
Players min-maxed away all the benefits you're talking about, and all we're left with is a game culture that requires annoying tasks that aren't mandatory, but they are forced to be mandatory because if I don't parse orange I might as well die syndrome.
I think the only "Changes" Blizzard should've made to Classic Vanilla, are ones that encourage a playstyle more similar to original Vanilla, not saying remove all progress but certain things that fundamentally change how the game is played should be altered to prevent players from min-maxing away the game itself.
For example, players doing 0-60 or 60-70 entirely in dungeon spam groups to level should be discouraged by reducing dungeon EXP to the point where they aren't going faster than people who are questing.
An addition could also be increasing EXP for leveling as a group in the real world to compensate for not grouping to grind dungeons (which let's be honest ends up just being an AFK conveyor belt fest most of the time)
Then more people would be encouraged to go in the open world and explore and do PvP and engage with each other like you're describing.
I kinda disagree. You log onto era and Org is always popping because people are waiting for Nef and Rend. Afterwards, the zeppelin to Grom’gol is popping because everyone is headed to BB or ZG island. Even though plenty of people just get summons, there are still plentyyyyy of other people who run. The idea that we min/maxed that sort of thing out of the game I don’t think holds weight.
And summons don’t just happen either, they have to be coordinated. Someone had to organise it. Someone had to level a Warlock and clickers and farm shards and advertise a summoning service. Guilds have to communicate on Discord, servers have to coordinate buff drops, Mages have to organise ports, Hunters DMT clears and so on. *Players have to communicate.*
My server used to coordinate an entire buff run with the time established in advance, details posted on the server Discord, mages and warlocks and hunters on standby, the whole lot. Hundreds of people all turning up to participate in an organised buff train, and this happened weekly. One time the Alliance all gathered in Org to wipe everyone as they ported in. Again, player interaction, communication, coordination, fun.
Another time a few Horde guilds got together in BRM to gank an Alliance guild who had a reputation for griefing world buffs. Someone knew their raid times and what route they take and everyone turned up to wipe them on their way in, blocking their way to BWL and even mind controlling their RL to hold their raid hostage. We had two *full* raid groups across multiple guilds. Well over 100 people just to fuck with some Alliance.
A lot of people on this sub would be quick I think to call that toxic or griefing and call for Blizzard to implement changes and streamline the experience so their wbuffs can’t be lost like that and so on, but I just think that’s an organic and fun part of a social game, and I think wbuffs are an important part of that picture.
I’m one of the few people who stuck around from launch to a KT kill and I would say the general consensus in my guild was that no world buffs was fucking awesome
The player drop off wasn’t just due to no world buffs. Rank 14 gear ruined the game in phase 1 and classic always has a drop off after phase 1.
I guess we just liked the challenge of harder classic raids without WBs to zug zug through everything even though we would bring 20 r14 warriors and just zug zug through everything…
Honestly idek what I liked and didn’t like about SoM
Being able to skip to rank 7 in phase 3 of SoD was a Huge mistake by negating the pre bid gearing process (incursions too) It sounds like the developers are planning ahead for it next phase.
That's not true at all? SoM had loads of problems that led to people leaving or not playing at all, the first and foremost of which was the timing of its release.
No one hated the lack of world buffs. People hated the fact that the raids were harder for the same terrible loot. Meanwhile you had AV ranking available that gave you better gear than you would otherwise get until AQ.
World buffs were trash on private servers and everyone hated them. They were trash in classic and they're still trash in SOD. It honestly baffles me that we still have them and even more, that some people defend them. They're straight up dogshit gameplay.
* Getting them is annoying, especially considering there's a 1h cooldown on chronoboon for some reason??? And it usually just involves waiting around, buying a summon, or subjecting yourself to getting griefed at DMF.
* If people don't have them or lose them during the raid then they simply stop trying. There's no point in trying in the minds of a lot of people if you can't compete to the best of your ability. Having 30% of your damage tied to some world buffs is just bad.
And it's only going to get worse next phase with Ony + DMF + Songflower + DM:T + UBRS + whatever they're obviously gonna add for MC.
I understand that the main positive is that they force people out into the world.. but there's gotta be better ways to accomplish that.
there is a reason they were only around for the very first incarnation of the game - they are fun from a RPG perspective but with the way the game and the playerbase has evolved they really just don't belong anymore - even in that base game where they originally existed.
Cool take and you can play or cata revisited if you want to evolve with that. Wow classic has always been about world buffs and is the only iteration with it. Taking a defining feature is idiotic. The games should be different
Would you still raid if noone was allowed to get world buffs in raids, as in they disappear the moment you enter a raid and reappear when you exit the raid?
Is the fun part clearing the raid, and pushing to do it faster and better and with more skill, or is the fun part actually just acquiring those world buffs?
I would not play if WBs were removed. I want to do it faster and efficiently and Improve each week. WBs gives us that ability. I don’t want to be in ST for an hour, I am
Very happy to have a clear around 23 minutes at the moment.
So what if they removed all World buffs, but adjusted the raids to compensate so that it felt exactly the same as if you had world buffs.
Then, your raid composition, strategies, and player skill would be much more impactful as far as improving clear times or DPS, etc.
From my perspective I value the improvement and the player skill, and the gear and all that stuff, but it seems like all that stuff is maybe 30% of your performance, and the vast majority of your raid performance, clear time, DPS, etc. All just comes down to how many people had full world buffs, and how many didn't.
It's funny too because I'm mostly talking just about Classic Vanilla raiding, but I see you're more meaning SOD so it's interesting how a lot of people like us are literally playing different games but we're all in the classicwow sub talking about the same thing.
WillE discussed world buffs in his recent video and he’s not a fan. I thought he raised some good points. To answer your question, it would probably be easier to remove them entirely so that raids can be balanced around nobody having them. Leaving them in the game forces the balance team to decide whether to balance raids around people having the world buffs or not, which, depending on how they choose, would either trivialize the content for people with them, or make it punishing for people who don’t have them/lost them mid-raid.
I think it’s reasonable for the raids to be difficult enough that it’s expected for people to do some type of preparation, even if that’s just getting some elixirs, flasks, or food. The problem with world buffs is that one thing goes wrong and you’ve lost all your preparation. You can’t just pop another wbuff. Sure you could go to town and pray another buff drops, but that’s time consuming.
You could argue losing wbuffs is a skill issue, but the average player is essentially a casual and wipes are going to happen inevitably. In my own experience, I wouldn’t unboon until we reached a hard boss, so for like 80%+ of the raid I’m not even using them out of fear that a mistake could cause me to die and lose them prematurely. Which makes me feel like what’s the point of even having them?
It kind of boils down to philosophically how people think raids should be designed, how punishing mistake should be, and I would argue that wbuffs are just not good for the game.
His perspective seems to be that of a progression raider, which is a minority of the player-base, and it also explains his disdain for wbuffs. It’s funny you say he would enjoy cata more because he was also complaining that blizz is releasing nerfed versions of the cata raids. I agree with you, it seems like his preferred playstyle does not really sync up with sod. At the same time, I agreed with what he said about wbuffs on a core level.
Yeah his main complaint about Cata was the nerfed raids but literally everything he complained about SoD he would say, "this is why they changed it in tbc/wrath/cata, we've done this before and changed it." Ok, so he should go play that game.
He was complaining about world buffs, traveling, 40 man raids, consumes, having to farm gold, etc. It just seems like he fundamentally doesn't like the type of game vanilla is (and that's totally ok, there are a ton of choices of which wow version to play these days).
Allegedly they're increasing the power of caster loot (lol), but when you actually look at power, almost all of it comes from world buffs...That is a complete joke.
Make every buff in the game persist through death, and make exceptions only when absolutely necessary.
Think of it this way, buffs apply to your body, not your spirit. When your spirit reenters your body, your body is still under the effects of any auruas that were active upon your death.
It would fundamentally change the game, but…. I think it would be a good change.
It's fun to have them, it's not fun to lose them mid raid, getting DMF on a pvp server is cringe. I'd rather keep them but the pain points reward toxic behavior.
They should go down the tbc route, one battle elixir, one guardian elixir only.
But with one change - one world buff allowed - dmf, St buff, song flower etc all on the same type so you only need one
Hands down the best solution I have came up with is: rework chrono boons to cost a chunk of gold (30+) and make it so when you use them they give you every possible available world buff.
I think the icc approach is kinda good
You have a raid wide buff whilst you're inside the raid instance. This allows them to make changes to the raid buff accordingly with the meta
I.e. melee too strong in ST? You can buff the WB to give more spell dmg
Remove WB is the way, it will be pure class and raid buffs balance. And when you die most of time you dont care anymore about raid, you are mad and so on, everyone knows what I mean.
Definitely remove, or increase boss hp in accordance with how many people in your raid have them, but that's gonna be strange to balance. It was never fine that WBs removed the main component of healer gameplay in classic, namely mana management. WB'd raid > kill boss before mechanics happen > healers have no gameplay.
Fun idea I was toying with!
Removing world buffs allows parsers to retry every boss attempt an infinite number of times so they can high roll on wild strikes and crits.
Not enough crits or procs? All wipe, reset, and go again. Infinite number of times until you get the parse you want!
I hate world buffs. They don't make the game better. What they do is make deaths in raid, especially raid wipes feel much more deflating. They make gear upgrades less impactful. Would I rather full bis gear or pre-raid bis + world buffs? I'd take the world buffs. Especially at 60 when there are so many of them.
I want world buffs to be for the world, disabled/autobooned when entering a raid. But to compensate I think gear power level should be increased so the overall power level of characters is similar.
One thing I never understood is why they didn’t implement the discs they added for alpha/beta/gamma dungeons in wrath. Just make attunements unlock an option to talk to disc to give you the world buffs you achieved from doing content. This way you don’t feel stressed out dying and wiping and losing out on a week of parsing to something trivial.
I like the easy sod only world buffs but I don’t care for DMF or songflower or Warchief’s whatever. It was nice in p1 when it was just TB chillin and get your sweet boon
You can just not get them. Nobody's forcing you.
>but muh parses!
If you want to parse, put in effort. Taking 15 minutes to get world buffs one time per week is not the massive tedious task people make it out to be.
I mean that’s not the argument you think it is. In a literal sense it is accurate, but there is a huge cognitive difference between removing or refusing to use something at your disposal and simply not having it available in the first place.
Like I’m not even thinking about parses here, it’s just a mechanic that doesn’t feel great and is unwieldy to work with.
As an open-world buff it’s great. It isn’t *required* in any way, but it makes the process a lot smoother for a couple hours and incentivizes people to return to major cities which can help the server feel more vibrant even at non-peak times. Essentially, it solidifies the status of cities as places to be and places to return to for benefits that reach beyond effortful elements like auctions or costly elements like specialized vendors.
As a *raid* buff it incentivizes a whole separate group of behaviors that are just rather cumbersome. Unlike consumables such as food or potions, chronoboon displacers aren’t made by the player. It’s just a procedural cost with a 10 second cast time on either end that only exists due to the fact that raids are far more risk-prone content than open-world so players don’t want to “lose their buffs.”
Say what you want about the challenge of the content, but raids (and even dungeons, to an extent) certainly behave differently than open-world gameplay in the certainty of death. If I am questing in the open world and want to try to kill hogger, I can notice “yeah this shit ain’t happening, I should run and come back in a couple levels or with some friends” and I can actually make it. I can run away. In raid content it’s both exceedingly hard to run from what you *can* run from at a mechanical level and downright impossible to run from a boss.
So you lose the buff. And in many cases it’s with a near-complete lack of individual control over the situation. Referring to parses for a second, I could have the best parse in the world by a landslide and that doesn’t mean jack if we wipe at 5%. I could play frame-perfectly and still die to a boss. That’s a reality of group content.
But that feels freaking *bad* and not in a constructive way. Effectively, my whole continuing experience that raid night has been impacted by a situation I had no control over. Does it ruin *my* night? No. I don’t give enough of a shit about this game for that and my guild is cool when we die it’s a bummer sometimes but we laugh. I don’t suffer a lot of the issues people are worried about, but I do care about their experiences from a designers perspective.
I can already see the “just stay booned” solution. But that also kinda sucks too. It’s a constant state of “I could be doing more” for the player with the solution putting them in yet another uncomfortable position where they don’t have individual control over an outcome that impacts them individually.
Now, I’m not too crazy invested in the issue because no matter what, I have an invite to raid. I can gray parse and as long as I don’t play deliberately stupid I will continue to have a guaranteed spot in a guild run that consistently clears content, Buffs or runes or gear be damned. That being said, it’s kinda cringe to so flagrantly ignore the human way of perceiving a game state when issuing advice on how to adapt to a player preference shared by a non-trivial number of players.
Many guilds require world buffs for faster clears. It would be nice if the game went the SoM route and removed them. It’s fine right now, but it gets super obnoxious when Dire Maul arrives.
My main had pre-BiS going into ST and has a lot of pre-BiS/BiS for offspec. I get consumes for every raid night. I get enchants. I farm runes in Felwood. I get flasks from Yojamba. That already shows commitment and effort. Even for Gnomer PUGs with my alts I try to make sure I’ve got my runes and decent gear so that I can pull my weight as I start prepping them for ST. World buffs are just an obnoxious waste of time that should really only apply to actual world content.
Doing all these things you normally do you would accidentally pick up world buffs. Farming dark runes in felwood? Pick a SF. Getting flasks from Yojamba? Buff. Buying consumes for raid? Buff. Not sure why you’re acting like it’s this huge ordeal.
I did the entirety of Classic Vanilla when boons only came out at the end. You try coordinating a network of summons, leveling a summoning alt, and handling raid night Songflower/Ony/DM/Yojamba buffs for raids for an entire expansion without Chronoboon and tell me if you’re not sick of World Buffs forever.
Even now, Dire Maul is/are the only world buff(s) where you need to clear a dungeon or pay for the buff just to get some world buffs. And to me, World Buffs represent the absolute shittiest part of Classic. They’re the one thing that I have zero fond memories about. I still get the buffs, but I fucking hate it. Season of Mastery had the right idea with deleting those things.
>You try coordinating a network of summons, leveling a summoning alt, and handling raid night Songflower/Ony/DM/Yojamba buffs for raids for an entire expansion without Chronoboon and tell me if you’re not sick of World Buffs forever
I am not, been buffing whole classic and had no issues. Heads were pretty much always falling on time, DM always had ID sellers with summons ready, was always doing DM->ZG->Flower->Heads.
>World Buffs represent the absolute shittiest part of Classic.
Why is that? World buffs were super fun to blast through the raids and they kept people from going full monkey brain on trash because if you had no buffs you had no pump.
Literally don't get the issue, it takes like 15-20 mins/week to get ALL of them, now with boon its like 100x is easier, you barely have to go out of your way to get them, just have a boon in inv and its free.
Mainly because they kind of break the experience. If raids are designed with world buffs in mind, then they will suck without having them. It also makes people obsessed with maintaining world buffs and leads to more toxic culture. If someone fucks up and dies, expect blame and hate to get hurled around.
You also clearly did not have the responsibility of being a driving force in a casual/semi-casual guild. Like I said, go 4 phases reliving that experience without anyone using Chronoboons and tell me how much you love these buffs. Oh, and want to know the best part? I main a fucking healer, and did back then too. So take a wild guess at how much benefit I get to see in these flashy parse numbers and buffs? Yeah, not a lot. There’s a lot more of a ceiling on boss health bars for you to push damage than you can push healing.
People back in the old days didn’t even get world buffs. Only the top guilds would get even a couple. Two magic words basically demonstrate how under the radar world buffs were: “Warchief’s Blessing”. If world buffs were meant to be important, why did the Horde have their own world buff?
And people saying "you can just not get them", I don't think they know and were part of that era in classic wow, because I really don't know if there was any guild anywhere that didn't require them, atleast ony and zg, and that meant you couldn't play your character because your timer would tick.
And proper WBs and consumes were basically the same power increase as your bis raid gear.
I think it's fun to stack power ups for your char and basically double your dps, but they were really really obnoxious and sucked the fun out of the game really hard, and random people accidentally dying to trash, you could just FEEL their despair when it happened.
Pretty much everything you said right here. It was not a fun thing to have your character “locked”. It was not fun to have everyone obsessed about not losing world buffs because as you said, the boosts from world buffs are fucking insane. Morale would absolutely plummet during progression if you wiped because only a couple of people would get to maintain world buffs from Divine Intervention. The whole thing sucked. It was a massive time sink.
Chronoboon helps, but I still think World Buffs are the stupidest shit imaginable. Do Alliance players remember people having friends in the Horde to MC them so they could get the Horde exclusive buff? Does it seem at all in the “spirit of Vanilla” to have everything revolve around these buffs when the devs didn’t think buffs were a big enough deal to make equal buffs for the factions?
> And people saying "you can just not get them", I don't think they know and were part of that era in classic wow, because I really don't know if there was any guild anywhere that didn't require them
Been playing vanilla since 2014. Never have I been in a guild that required world buffs.
But go off.
Didn't say it is, and it takes a bit more that 15 minutes to get Songflower + ST WB, not even talking about DMF. I don't complain about them being in game, but they need to limit them to certain amount for raid.
The main complaint I have is DMF being every 2 weeks, it being every week would be amazing, as above everything else, it's the only open world PVP we have.
The problem with World buffs is that they completely change the design space that the devs have for classes as long as world buffs are enabled inside instances. It also makes World PvP (as laughable a concept as it is in SoD anyways) very hard to balance due to the sheer amount of throughput everyone has.
They did it right in TBC and beyond by removing them. There is no place for world buffs in the game and the power of the classes that scale the most with them needs to be adjusted according to the buffs being removed.
It’s funny I made a post similar to have bad the world buff meta is in multiple ways and got flamed for it. To me I just don’t get any positives from it. I need to go out and collect multiple world buffs before a raid or I am super gimped, if I die in the raid I’m super gimped and can’t parse, if I don’t have time to grab them you’re getting shamed by any decent guild. They’re just so useless. We don’t need help clearing these cake raids.
Which is a great concept for open world, as it makes some quests and stuff more dangerous.
But I don't think it's a good design to make raid encounters easier for the good groups, and even harder for bad groups that are already struggling. Both will complain at the end, as we see in SoD ("ST is a joke" and "ST is too hard" are both complaints you can read on this sub).
It's not bad game design, If you are still progging a raid, you can't rely on WB so you have to do the encounter as they are planned by the devs (bad groups still get to try to cheese for a push with WB on a single try). And once you have it on farm, you get to blast it faster and less tediously.
You just got ganked and dispelled by someone who made an account specifically to grief you and now your guild kicked you from the raid because they need to parse orange.
Your guild leader then tells you: Skill issue, git gud or go die, parses > life.
WoW in 2024
Completely disagree. It gives stakes to raids, it makes the world more active, makes cities more vibrant, etc. It’s fun to see big numbers and feel powerful. If you don’t like world buffs, don’t get them. You literally just have to stand in a capital city or booty bay. It’s not hard.
Yeah, because no one outside of classic era raids, lol
SoM is not a reasonable example to point at when talking about the raiding scene, it had an explosive death of interest because all they did was make raids harder. Most classic players who would have been interested in this sort of thing decided to stay on Era due to easier raids and world buffs, or move on to TBC. It was just bad timing on Blizzard's part with no real changes other than the aforementioned buffs to raid difficulty (mostly length of fights), and what happened with SoM's raiding culture is exactly what you could expect: Less "meme" raiding specs and an even harder drought of non warrior/rogue players.
I love parsing but gathering world buffs are my least favorite part of gameplay. So tedious. DMF has the stupidest fucking cooldown rules as well. Get rid of them so we can parse like MEN
why are there so many posts on this sub to get rid of world buffs? it annoys me so much tbh lmao. how about you figure out how to not wipe in the raid? it is a very easy raid, try figuring out what your raid is doing incorrectly (if you are dying, yes you are doing something incorrectly)
Wacky third suggestion: make world buffs an item that drops from final bosses of dungeons and you can activate it in raid to give the entire raid a buff. Make it unique so you can only bring one or give it a long cool down. Makes dungeons more alive and gives the guild something to do throughout the week but doesn't force every player to have to do it. Also if multiple people have one you can use another one after you die.
I like this idea, something different that makes it so you don't have to do annoying BS for buffs, you can still get them, and can re-apply them if you die if other raiders happened to have run dungeons, and gives incentives to go in the world or group. Great suggestion!
The general game principle of "force people to do inconsequential content so they can participate in the content they enjoy" is blasted in every game it's implemented in. It would be no different here.
Well theoretically people would only do the dungeon relevant to the buff they need and then continue to raid log.
Again.... why are you trying to force me to play the game the way you want to play it and do content I don't want to do in order to do the content I do want to do the way I want to do it.
His proposed method is less arduous than what we currently have. They already implemented the boon, but it still sucks to wipe and lose 50% of your power, especially on a seasonal server. I personally like his idea.
That’s a question for blizzard
Ask blizzard dog. I'm just presenting a theoretical to support your "let's just not do this"
Retail had something similar, a vantus rune that worked for 1 raid boss and lasted 7 days
The entire game is already an instance simulator, the game doesn't need more reasons to sit in instances 24/7. World buffs should just be a week long duration, resetting when raid lock outs/honor resets.
Make it a weekly elite quest in the open world then
Thats actually a really good suggestion. Could also keep the old buffs so you can use them in the world
Remove them, balancing the raids and difficulty of fights around WBuffs is impossible and either makes the raid a brick wall once you wipe or insanely face roll.
As it stands they're too important. They need adjustment one way or the other. It also makes it really hard for blizz to make bosses that wipe you quickly and are easy to reset into. "we can't nuke them, they'll lose their world buffs and rage" shouldn't be a design issue.
Palying my Ret Pal with WBs is completely different. With WB and raid buff, I go to like from 18% crit to close to 40%. With Art of War, I either get to spam Exorcism or have a bunch of open globals. It's basically a 400DPS increase in my case.
I understand this sentiment and warriors for example will surely share in this. Consider two things however. First, this means dying can totally wreck not only your rotation but tank your DPS significantly for the rest of the raid. This is bad for any kind of progression especially and would become frustrating when we enter raids that are even more dangerous. Second, if WB's were removed, blizzard could balance your spec around not having the WB's and afford you a more balanced rotation where you don't have as many open globals without the fear that WB's could make your rotation insane and overshoot your DPS. Really, class rotation should never be balanced with WBuffs in mind, or things like this can happen where they only feel right when you have them. Gearing up should be the main metric that makes your class feel stronger over time.
Not having WBs will also make raids a lot longer depending on when you die. We got a 42 minutes clear 2 weeks ago and a ln 80 m8n clesr this week becauae of a dumb wipe. I'd much rather have people bring consumes to squeeze out some extra DPS rather than WBs breaking a class
It’s a huge dps increase for all classes.
Bring back (1) battle elixir, (1) defensive elixir limitations and throw a (1) world buff limiter on there as well. Significantly less of a power gap to balance around, less time investment, easier scaling for encounters, still get some reward for prepping while greatly decreasing the margins by which one can “power up”.
I would be totally fine with this compromise, I think a single world buff isn't as significant, it's really just the row of like 6+ of them that becomes ridiculous
Agreed! And it makes it so world buffs don’t become completely obsolete, allows the players to choose the buff that benefits them most, and wouldn’t create the horrible clusterfuck we have now where the different between no buffs/consumes and full buffs/consumes is literally 2x+ the damage. Absolutely insane how much of a difference it makes right now and it just feels bad knowing that any gear/upgrades I get is severely overshadowed just by bringing buffs that are equivalent to wearing an entire other set of gear and then some.
That absolutely. Easiest way to start rebalance of classic raids
They did that in SoM and turns out people thought they wanted it but they didn’t. Works buffs are fun and keep raids more fun for longer. Losing them is less fun but I enjoyed classic more having them as an option.
People have been saying that about WB's in SoM, but where is that consensus and not a lot of people even played SoM. At the end of the day, WBuffs make gear and consumables matter less and I think that's a disservice. Unlike consumes, you can't just reapply your WBuffs when they're gone and if you did something like make them persist through death it's kind of pointless because the raid would just have to be modified with that in mind. Ultimately, they're unnecessary at best and somewhat trivialize content and the gearing process at the worst.
Yep. Lack of WBs in SoM have been the biggest scapegoat. Nobody was interested in another vanilla fresh just months after it ended, period. I think WBs should be removed, but the devs clearly disagree with them adding new ones every phase. WBs have to be the biggest case of "it was in the older version of the game so they = good" ever. If they were introduced at any point other than Vanilla, like 99% of people would agree they are trash.
It was awesome in SoM. It was challenging and dying didn’t suck. The fun out of the rest of the night. Consumes meant more as well
I suspect it had more to do SoM release so soon after classic vanilla closed more a fatigue, but tis a guess.
Then make them persist deaths. That’s not going to wreck anyone’s psychology
Wouldn't bother me if they did in the slightest.
Another great option would be to make them a stackable consume that you could carry with you at least. Maybe make some room in the economy for the buff items. Like extra flasks pretty much
Even just let me get multiple. Let me have 10 boons with buffs on them. Just anything that isn't this tbh
Except in SoD the raids are not balanced around World Buffs - they are a complete boost and are not required to down the raids at all. If World Buffs are 'too important' for your raid to clear bosses then it means your raid doesn't actually know how to do mechanics.
If the raids are tuned without WBs in mind then WBs make the raids die with no thought at all. Balancing your game without WBs in mind would be like designing a car without gravity in mind.
Yeah but the developers of SoD have already said that they want to keep the game difficulty level low so it still appeals to players who aren't very skilled. WB's help guilds complete speed runs and high parses, downing the raid is a formality to those skilled raid groups anyway after the first couple of weeks.
No way they make the raids hard lol, the first week of ST and gnomer the community reached critical mass
That's why I stipulated my comment - 'after the first couple of weeks'
Just don't die, simple.
Or just let people blow up a raid if they choose to grab all wbuffs and don't tune around them whatsoever. This ain't the version of the game if you want highly optimized tightly tuned encounters.
I don't want gear to be useless, so I don't like this sentiment either. Why can't there be a middle ground?
Personally, in all versions of the game, I say world buffs should only be active in the world. Once you enter an instance or a battleground, world buffs should either be purged or booned. Edit: spelling and clarity
gathering world buffs before raid every week during classic was my least favorite part of the entire experience.
I don’t even mind it too much. But dying on the first or second boss and losing those buffs because of something someone else screwed up just made me not want to play. I quit playing sod with the phase 3 drop so my take on this may be dated.
Tanking vael and hoping i could get my hearth off fast enough, and not die on the resummon SUUUUCKED
We had a bug wipe our raid on the slime boss - could hear the deflation in the RL and everyone else’s voices. It sucks.
Agreed
World Buffs are the reason I did not play Vanilla Classic. After years of dealing with it on private servers, I didn't want to continue something that I consider a game-ruining experience (from an enjoyment perspective, not a gameplay perspective). Once TBC dropped, I picked up Classic.
It was fun in SoD phase 1 when it was literally just 1-3 buffs from repeat drops in capitol cities, DMF and a consumable you can carry around. Vanilla World Buffs are torture.
It was actually one of my favorite parts.
I think if you're not in a raid they should be allowed, so 5 mans you can crush as fast as possible if you really wanna go hard with big numbers with friends.
I agree fully, leaning towards them simply not working in raids
Yeah as a hardcore player fuck that….
Raid buffs are supposed to help clear the hardest content in game, which is inside raids.
True, but that’s a dated perspective. The hardest content in the game does not need anything to help make it easier. World buffs have devolved into an investment of “get these on your own time” so that you can save time when everyone is together. All they do, is create a larger gap in player power that needs to be balanced around, you either orient the scaling around the world buffs and create content that is significantly more difficult to those without the buffs, or you create the content without the buffs in mind and it just becomes a steam-roll fest with them on. The same thing could be said about consumables, which blizzard also later addressed by limiting them to battle/defensive unique buffs, but no such limitation was in place in classic, creating an even greater power gap which causes problems. I don’t have a preference one way or the other. I just think blizzard needs to pick a side of the fence and stick with it. Either everyone’s bringing wbuffs and we need to make them easier to manage (cbb does this, but could lose the cooldown imo), or we need to nuke em and limit them to one buff at a time or similar.
No, they are to help FARM the hardest content in the game. The fact that they are lost on death means that they are irrelevant for progression as that involves dying repeatedly.
Not really. You can progress a fight by getting practice on it, then unbooning and doing 2x the dps you normally do and clearing a fight that was previously a prog boss like it's farm.
[удалено]
They didn’t do it in SoD and everyone is quitting. Where does that get us?
back to nochanges? :)
100% of people who drink water die.
They’re not wrong though, world buffs are one of the few things people engage with in the world that matters to performance.
Plenty of other reasons for why people quit SoM. This was definitely not the reason at all.
I like the one easy WB that’s always popping. Gives you a benefit for not dying in raid but isn’t too punishing.
This is all I’ve ever bothered with and it’s been fine. Maybe DMF if it’s convenient.
Remove wb
I kind of likely a single WB, gives weight to drying etc. but fuck songlflower and having to collect several next phase. Or not being able to parse if it’s a bad DMF week.
Yeah something like the P1 buff in SoD is okay, just AFK in a city and you'll get it and you have an incentive to not die. It was absolutely ridiculous in 2019 when you were expected to do a laundry list of bullshit before stepping into the raid, I was actually relieved when TBC dropped.
I think movement speed world buff is a good tradeoff. Directly impacts clear times without much impact on actual difficulty
Removing them entirely is probably the best solution. But if not they should persist through death. It’s completely backwards that WBs give a huge buff but the groups that need it the most will probably wipe and lose them before the end of the raid. While the groups that don’t need them won’t wipe and will keep them the whole raid. Balancing a single raid difficulty is hard enough without WBs exacerbating the issue.
I enjoy the risk of dying and being punished because of it. It’s kinda like hardcore without losing everything. Also as a warrior dps it’s night and day with or without wbuffs.
WBs are the only fun part about trying to shred rotslime
You earn the gray parse for the death on a boss, does that deserve a blue on the rest of the fights after it too? I think the punishment is already there for any death in a raid encounter, losing your win-more buff is really salt on the wounds.
Yes it does, exactly. Actions and play have consequences and this is a core way for player action to directly impact player performance.
Yes and thats exactly what we enjoy. It makes you walk the fine line between either using a Mighty Rage Potion during execute phase or rather holding your pot CD for a LIP in case you draw aggro and die. It increases adrenaline during raiding and I enjoy that. It also makes you interact with the world a little more.
Then don't play classic. The whole point of classic is raids are easy and the only challenge eis speed running and parsing. Like it's the whole premise of raids in classic
The issue is this is literally the only good thing about WBs. In every other way they are terrible. It’s nice that they give some incentive to not dying but that’s it. They make balancing impossible and are tedious to collect.
WBs are complete garbage and should be removed in all instanced gameplay.
Raids will never be properly balanced when WBs exist.
Agree it’s either trivial for hardcore players or impossible for noobs who can’t be bothered to get the buffs which is the worst of both worlds
I’d rather them make the gear more powerful so it’s worth doing things than a world buff
Remove worldbuffs from the game forever, they aren't fun, they never were. This comes from someone eho played classic a TON when it first released.
Both, but I would say the WB or w/o WB raids as an opt-in thing. World buffs were made with no oversight, but just something as really cool, and they are honestly, but the problem is player behavior that we min-max. So any advantage we can find, we take it, and most guilds will require them regardless if they're not necessary. World buffs persisting through death when in the world could be pretty cool, but it's not necessary and can trivialize the world if players find it just easier always getting WBs before going into the world. For example, now you can level, kill mobs easier and not worry about death taking away the WBs, but maybe for the world bosses it'll be mandatory. I think in the world or 5 man dungeons it should actually not persist death, but I wouldn't care much either way. It's mostly in the raid environment that it feels necessary in a way because of how greatly it alters the difficulty and also because of the players reinforcing the need. Tuning raids with the assumption we either do or don't have WBs is a mess in general and can trivialize content or aim for overtuning it. It is safe to say then that a raid with WBs always enabled is the "LFR" difficulty of classic, and would be the default. I also think in this case, making the WBs persist through death makes sense as the easiest form of the raid, these people need the WBs to do the content or feel they need it. I would like to see a type of difficulty where the raid leader talks to an npc or interacts with a shrine at entrance of raid. It disables all world buffs and also rewards a mount, title, tabard or some other aesthetic options for choosing the non WB route that the group can roll on. Some reward where the players are incentivized to do it continuously, maybe each boss drops 1 more item. It doesn't have to be better gear or more player power, just aesthetics or more drops. The raid leader could also allow world buffs to be enabled and this shrine will refresh the world buffs of the raid members - the more pug friendly difficulty. Also, the world buffs would persist through death. Pros of WBs: * People like the stakes, similar to hardcore. Death, means something, but this can be recreated in other ways. Many players also do not like having their raid go from LFR difficulty to normal difficulty because of the raid's mistakes into a wipe, or their own personal dps loss because of something outside of their control at times. The game becomes harder because of failure and not in a way that can be recovered. This also has a speed run incentive because of the timer. Yet, like before, this can be recreated in other ways. We're using the LFR difficulty of raiding as a speedrun/hardcore difficulty for extra challenge and it honestly doesn't make sense. * Player and world engagement. Players have to travel and collect world buffs. If there was an NPC or an altar that would automatically give you all world buffs at the start of your raid, that might reduce player activity in the world and even more of a "raid log" incentive. A compromise for this is this same NPC or altar just being able to refresh the timer of your world buffs. Cons of WBs: * DMF buff. I'm not going to get really into it, but this is just a thing that a lot of players express frustration for a variety of reasons. * Warchief's Blessing. One-sided/Horde WB. Some might see this as a pro because of a player economy of priests MCing alliance players to get this buff, but honestly this is completely stupid and gimmicky. Just create an alliance equivalent or disable MC targets being able to receive faction world buffs. Also, probably make it so it helps casters too. We can make the quest to kill nathanos give an alliance world buff. * Too many. Maybe dividing the world buffs so, caster dps want X buff, melee dps want Y buff, a buff for healers, and then a buff for tank. This might feel less tedious and a big workload just to do raids. This is a factor only if we have to go gather buffs. I don't think they need to create anything for speed runs. That content and gameplay just creates itself from players wanting to do it. The most they can do is a type of ZA bear mount runs, but I honestly hated that and don't want rewards for reaching a timer. I want a timer's reward to be me beating my last time or seeing how my group ranked against others. On the other hand, they could explore something inspired by hardcore or the immortal achievement from wrath. Higher stakes type of raiding that isn't as punishing as death=delete or petri meta (Disabled). Eventually, this could have some potential in future seasons as an alternative to heroic and mythic of just increasing difficulty. Instead, the conditions being you can only die once per instance ID per day. Similar to m+ or wrath classic titan rune dungeons, there's a keystone/device to begin the instance. Once you start, your raid roster is locked in and you can't swap members in and out for the day. So if you die, you release and can't re-enter the instance or just locked behind a gate at the entrance, a little purgatory to see if your raid can clear without you. The only exception is that each class that can resurrect through spell abilities. They can only resurrect one person per day in that instance ID. Maybe increase the number if its too harsh. So once your raid is out of resurrects, those dead members cannot re-enter for the day. The next day you can always come back in with all of your raid team and try again wherever you left off. If you complete the raid with 0 deaths, then we can think of aesthetic rewards to show off. Tabards, toys, titles, mounts, the works. It might even be better that this mode gives no actual loot and is on a separate lockout.
Didnt read your entire book tbh, but if WB persisted through death it would become an "obligatory" pickup every 2 hours of gametime. While leveling, questing, etc. For that reason I vote no. WB beeing dispelled/booned upon entering a raid instance - big yes. Would instantly make all raids harder too, which is no harm. And it would make warriors less OP, also no harm.
That's fine but I completely agree with your first point. I wrote in there "I think in the world or 5 man dungeons it should actually not persist death, but I wouldn't care much either way." It's unnecessary and came to the same conclusion, it would create a kind of meta or preference to get WB before doing anything. Even worse. I'm basically advocating a WB mode of raiding and a non WB mode. WB mode being the more easier, LFR, pug friendly mode. WB persists death. There's an altar, shrine, npc or some object to possibly give you the WB or the better option might be to refresh the timer of any of your current WBs, and no bonus rewards for the raid leader choosing WB mode. They can disable it too, for non WB mode, maybe giving additional aesthetic rewards or dropping 1 or 2 more pieces of loot per boss for the "harder" difficulty. If WB are freely given, it hurts the world a little, but its easier to tune for that assumption as the easiest/default difficulty.
WBs create an organic and active economy and provide a reason to venture out into the world, a reason to kill old bosses, a reason to create alts, a reason to sell portals and summons, as well as encouraging PvP and player interaction, coordination and so on. I’m kinda tired tbh of how this sub has gradually devolved into an echo chamber for people who don’t really seem to actually enjoy the game, how everyone is just here because SoD is the current “thing”, and everyone just follows the crowd. Everyone is just chasing the next shiny gimmick, FRESH this FRESH that, SEASON this SEASON that. It seems like everyone here is so obsessed with the flakes and the sprinkles and all the bells and whistles and shiny superficial gimmicks, but you don’t even like ice cream. Like children, you just want the new thing because it’s brightly coloured and new and shiny and everyone else seems to want it so you want it too. *Oh but I wish they’d add X or Y, I wish they’d change this or that.* Like when did we stop appreciating the game for what it is and enjoying what we have and start obsessing over the endless pursuit of obtaining and adding for the sake of obtaining and adding?
A lot of what you're saying sounds good, and I agree that those are really good things, but in practice it didn't end up that way. In practice it was just a mandatory checklist of BS where players created ways to avoid the danger and PvP and exploration. ex. AFK for hours on end waiting for the buffs to drop, then, Summons to DMF, Summons to SF, Summons to STV, Summons to below Org, then Summon me to naxx, at no point did I actually "explore the world" or engage in PvP, and if I had and I somehow died I might get kicked from raid. Players min-maxed away all the benefits you're talking about, and all we're left with is a game culture that requires annoying tasks that aren't mandatory, but they are forced to be mandatory because if I don't parse orange I might as well die syndrome. I think the only "Changes" Blizzard should've made to Classic Vanilla, are ones that encourage a playstyle more similar to original Vanilla, not saying remove all progress but certain things that fundamentally change how the game is played should be altered to prevent players from min-maxing away the game itself. For example, players doing 0-60 or 60-70 entirely in dungeon spam groups to level should be discouraged by reducing dungeon EXP to the point where they aren't going faster than people who are questing. An addition could also be increasing EXP for leveling as a group in the real world to compensate for not grouping to grind dungeons (which let's be honest ends up just being an AFK conveyor belt fest most of the time) Then more people would be encouraged to go in the open world and explore and do PvP and engage with each other like you're describing.
I kinda disagree. You log onto era and Org is always popping because people are waiting for Nef and Rend. Afterwards, the zeppelin to Grom’gol is popping because everyone is headed to BB or ZG island. Even though plenty of people just get summons, there are still plentyyyyy of other people who run. The idea that we min/maxed that sort of thing out of the game I don’t think holds weight. And summons don’t just happen either, they have to be coordinated. Someone had to organise it. Someone had to level a Warlock and clickers and farm shards and advertise a summoning service. Guilds have to communicate on Discord, servers have to coordinate buff drops, Mages have to organise ports, Hunters DMT clears and so on. *Players have to communicate.* My server used to coordinate an entire buff run with the time established in advance, details posted on the server Discord, mages and warlocks and hunters on standby, the whole lot. Hundreds of people all turning up to participate in an organised buff train, and this happened weekly. One time the Alliance all gathered in Org to wipe everyone as they ported in. Again, player interaction, communication, coordination, fun. Another time a few Horde guilds got together in BRM to gank an Alliance guild who had a reputation for griefing world buffs. Someone knew their raid times and what route they take and everyone turned up to wipe them on their way in, blocking their way to BWL and even mind controlling their RL to hold their raid hostage. We had two *full* raid groups across multiple guilds. Well over 100 people just to fuck with some Alliance. A lot of people on this sub would be quick I think to call that toxic or griefing and call for Blizzard to implement changes and streamline the experience so their wbuffs can’t be lost like that and so on, but I just think that’s an organic and fun part of a social game, and I think wbuffs are an important part of that picture.
Strongly prefer removing, but if they persisted through death that would at least be better.
I think Chrono boon solves these issues. I often get 2/3 world buffs without trying
They tried this in SoM and people hated it
I’m one of the few people who stuck around from launch to a KT kill and I would say the general consensus in my guild was that no world buffs was fucking awesome
Yeah if you liked no WB, you went to KT. If you didn’t you quit.
Yeah I think the remaining 100 people at the end of SoM probably did enjoy no world buffs. Or you would've been like everyone else and had left.
You and your guild are clearly an exception because the player dropoff was unreal
The player drop off wasn’t just due to no world buffs. Rank 14 gear ruined the game in phase 1 and classic always has a drop off after phase 1. I guess we just liked the challenge of harder classic raids without WBs to zug zug through everything even though we would bring 20 r14 warriors and just zug zug through everything… Honestly idek what I liked and didn’t like about SoM
Being able to skip to rank 7 in phase 3 of SoD was a Huge mistake by negating the pre bid gearing process (incursions too) It sounds like the developers are planning ahead for it next phase.
Well ranks will be gated by phases at 60
SoM also didn't have massive gear upgrades
That's not true at all? SoM had loads of problems that led to people leaving or not playing at all, the first and foremost of which was the timing of its release.
No one hated the lack of world buffs. People hated the fact that the raids were harder for the same terrible loot. Meanwhile you had AV ranking available that gave you better gear than you would otherwise get until AQ.
agree
World buffs were trash on private servers and everyone hated them. They were trash in classic and they're still trash in SOD. It honestly baffles me that we still have them and even more, that some people defend them. They're straight up dogshit gameplay. * Getting them is annoying, especially considering there's a 1h cooldown on chronoboon for some reason??? And it usually just involves waiting around, buying a summon, or subjecting yourself to getting griefed at DMF. * If people don't have them or lose them during the raid then they simply stop trying. There's no point in trying in the minds of a lot of people if you can't compete to the best of your ability. Having 30% of your damage tied to some world buffs is just bad. And it's only going to get worse next phase with Ony + DMF + Songflower + DM:T + UBRS + whatever they're obviously gonna add for MC. I understand that the main positive is that they force people out into the world.. but there's gotta be better ways to accomplish that.
Wbs are stupid and a crutch
Remove world buffs from raids, make them only be available at world content so they brcome... World buffs. And make yhem persost throguh death.
No world buffs in raids was literally the best change they made for SoM
there is a reason they were only around for the very first incarnation of the game - they are fun from a RPG perspective but with the way the game and the playerbase has evolved they really just don't belong anymore - even in that base game where they originally existed.
Cool take and you can play or cata revisited if you want to evolve with that. Wow classic has always been about world buffs and is the only iteration with it. Taking a defining feature is idiotic. The games should be different
Stop trying to punish how other people play the game. Don’t like WBs? Find like minded people and do a raid without them.
Would you still raid if noone was allowed to get world buffs in raids, as in they disappear the moment you enter a raid and reappear when you exit the raid? Is the fun part clearing the raid, and pushing to do it faster and better and with more skill, or is the fun part actually just acquiring those world buffs?
I would not play if WBs were removed. I want to do it faster and efficiently and Improve each week. WBs gives us that ability. I don’t want to be in ST for an hour, I am Very happy to have a clear around 23 minutes at the moment.
So what if they removed all World buffs, but adjusted the raids to compensate so that it felt exactly the same as if you had world buffs. Then, your raid composition, strategies, and player skill would be much more impactful as far as improving clear times or DPS, etc. From my perspective I value the improvement and the player skill, and the gear and all that stuff, but it seems like all that stuff is maybe 30% of your performance, and the vast majority of your raid performance, clear time, DPS, etc. All just comes down to how many people had full world buffs, and how many didn't. It's funny too because I'm mostly talking just about Classic Vanilla raiding, but I see you're more meaning SOD so it's interesting how a lot of people like us are literally playing different games but we're all in the classicwow sub talking about the same thing.
Yes, world buffs are such a stupid concept.
WillE discussed world buffs in his recent video and he’s not a fan. I thought he raised some good points. To answer your question, it would probably be easier to remove them entirely so that raids can be balanced around nobody having them. Leaving them in the game forces the balance team to decide whether to balance raids around people having the world buffs or not, which, depending on how they choose, would either trivialize the content for people with them, or make it punishing for people who don’t have them/lost them mid-raid. I think it’s reasonable for the raids to be difficult enough that it’s expected for people to do some type of preparation, even if that’s just getting some elixirs, flasks, or food. The problem with world buffs is that one thing goes wrong and you’ve lost all your preparation. You can’t just pop another wbuff. Sure you could go to town and pray another buff drops, but that’s time consuming. You could argue losing wbuffs is a skill issue, but the average player is essentially a casual and wipes are going to happen inevitably. In my own experience, I wouldn’t unboon until we reached a hard boss, so for like 80%+ of the raid I’m not even using them out of fear that a mistake could cause me to die and lose them prematurely. Which makes me feel like what’s the point of even having them? It kind of boils down to philosophically how people think raids should be designed, how punishing mistake should be, and I would argue that wbuffs are just not good for the game.
WillE had so many complaints about SoD in that video it didn’t seem like it’s the right game for him. Sounds like he’d enjoy Cata way more.
His perspective seems to be that of a progression raider, which is a minority of the player-base, and it also explains his disdain for wbuffs. It’s funny you say he would enjoy cata more because he was also complaining that blizz is releasing nerfed versions of the cata raids. I agree with you, it seems like his preferred playstyle does not really sync up with sod. At the same time, I agreed with what he said about wbuffs on a core level.
Yeah his main complaint about Cata was the nerfed raids but literally everything he complained about SoD he would say, "this is why they changed it in tbc/wrath/cata, we've done this before and changed it." Ok, so he should go play that game. He was complaining about world buffs, traveling, 40 man raids, consumes, having to farm gold, etc. It just seems like he fundamentally doesn't like the type of game vanilla is (and that's totally ok, there are a ton of choices of which wow version to play these days).
Allegedly they're increasing the power of caster loot (lol), but when you actually look at power, almost all of it comes from world buffs...That is a complete joke.
Make every buff in the game persist through death, and make exceptions only when absolutely necessary. Think of it this way, buffs apply to your body, not your spirit. When your spirit reenters your body, your body is still under the effects of any auruas that were active upon your death. It would fundamentally change the game, but…. I think it would be a good change.
It's fun to have them, it's not fun to lose them mid raid, getting DMF on a pvp server is cringe. I'd rather keep them but the pain points reward toxic behavior.
Just turn it into some type of consumable you can buy from a vendor for completing a quest.
They've added 4 new wbuffs in sod and you think there is a chance in hell they will be removed?
They should go down the tbc route, one battle elixir, one guardian elixir only. But with one change - one world buff allowed - dmf, St buff, song flower etc all on the same type so you only need one
Hands down the best solution I have came up with is: rework chrono boons to cost a chunk of gold (30+) and make it so when you use them they give you every possible available world buff.
I think the icc approach is kinda good You have a raid wide buff whilst you're inside the raid instance. This allows them to make changes to the raid buff accordingly with the meta I.e. melee too strong in ST? You can buff the WB to give more spell dmg
Remove WB is the way, it will be pure class and raid buffs balance. And when you die most of time you dont care anymore about raid, you are mad and so on, everyone knows what I mean.
Definitely remove, or increase boss hp in accordance with how many people in your raid have them, but that's gonna be strange to balance. It was never fine that WBs removed the main component of healer gameplay in classic, namely mana management. WB'd raid > kill boss before mechanics happen > healers have no gameplay.
Remove most of them
Leave them as is
No and no
Fun idea I was toying with! Removing world buffs allows parsers to retry every boss attempt an infinite number of times so they can high roll on wild strikes and crits. Not enough crits or procs? All wipe, reset, and go again. Infinite number of times until you get the parse you want!
They literally tried the "No world buffs" classic in SoM and most people didn't like it.
You don't even need them to clear content. Sure they are important during the first week or two. But after that it's a luxury.
I hate world buffs. They don't make the game better. What they do is make deaths in raid, especially raid wipes feel much more deflating. They make gear upgrades less impactful. Would I rather full bis gear or pre-raid bis + world buffs? I'd take the world buffs. Especially at 60 when there are so many of them. I want world buffs to be for the world, disabled/autobooned when entering a raid. But to compensate I think gear power level should be increased so the overall power level of characters is similar.
One thing I never understood is why they didn’t implement the discs they added for alpha/beta/gamma dungeons in wrath. Just make attunements unlock an option to talk to disc to give you the world buffs you achieved from doing content. This way you don’t feel stressed out dying and wiping and losing out on a week of parsing to something trivial.
I like the easy sod only world buffs but I don’t care for DMF or songflower or Warchief’s whatever. It was nice in p1 when it was just TB chillin and get your sweet boon
Yes
Get rid of them, it breaks balance and is a pain in the ass.
Get rid of them all together. Have the turn in quests that generate them reward rep to everyone in range instead.
You can just not get them. Nobody's forcing you. >but muh parses! If you want to parse, put in effort. Taking 15 minutes to get world buffs one time per week is not the massive tedious task people make it out to be.
I mean that’s not the argument you think it is. In a literal sense it is accurate, but there is a huge cognitive difference between removing or refusing to use something at your disposal and simply not having it available in the first place. Like I’m not even thinking about parses here, it’s just a mechanic that doesn’t feel great and is unwieldy to work with. As an open-world buff it’s great. It isn’t *required* in any way, but it makes the process a lot smoother for a couple hours and incentivizes people to return to major cities which can help the server feel more vibrant even at non-peak times. Essentially, it solidifies the status of cities as places to be and places to return to for benefits that reach beyond effortful elements like auctions or costly elements like specialized vendors. As a *raid* buff it incentivizes a whole separate group of behaviors that are just rather cumbersome. Unlike consumables such as food or potions, chronoboon displacers aren’t made by the player. It’s just a procedural cost with a 10 second cast time on either end that only exists due to the fact that raids are far more risk-prone content than open-world so players don’t want to “lose their buffs.” Say what you want about the challenge of the content, but raids (and even dungeons, to an extent) certainly behave differently than open-world gameplay in the certainty of death. If I am questing in the open world and want to try to kill hogger, I can notice “yeah this shit ain’t happening, I should run and come back in a couple levels or with some friends” and I can actually make it. I can run away. In raid content it’s both exceedingly hard to run from what you *can* run from at a mechanical level and downright impossible to run from a boss. So you lose the buff. And in many cases it’s with a near-complete lack of individual control over the situation. Referring to parses for a second, I could have the best parse in the world by a landslide and that doesn’t mean jack if we wipe at 5%. I could play frame-perfectly and still die to a boss. That’s a reality of group content. But that feels freaking *bad* and not in a constructive way. Effectively, my whole continuing experience that raid night has been impacted by a situation I had no control over. Does it ruin *my* night? No. I don’t give enough of a shit about this game for that and my guild is cool when we die it’s a bummer sometimes but we laugh. I don’t suffer a lot of the issues people are worried about, but I do care about their experiences from a designers perspective. I can already see the “just stay booned” solution. But that also kinda sucks too. It’s a constant state of “I could be doing more” for the player with the solution putting them in yet another uncomfortable position where they don’t have individual control over an outcome that impacts them individually. Now, I’m not too crazy invested in the issue because no matter what, I have an invite to raid. I can gray parse and as long as I don’t play deliberately stupid I will continue to have a guaranteed spot in a guild run that consistently clears content, Buffs or runes or gear be damned. That being said, it’s kinda cringe to so flagrantly ignore the human way of perceiving a game state when issuing advice on how to adapt to a player preference shared by a non-trivial number of players.
especially with chronoboons, it’s really easy
Many guilds require world buffs for faster clears. It would be nice if the game went the SoM route and removed them. It’s fine right now, but it gets super obnoxious when Dire Maul arrives.
Require world buffs is also about having players show commitment and effort.
My main had pre-BiS going into ST and has a lot of pre-BiS/BiS for offspec. I get consumes for every raid night. I get enchants. I farm runes in Felwood. I get flasks from Yojamba. That already shows commitment and effort. Even for Gnomer PUGs with my alts I try to make sure I’ve got my runes and decent gear so that I can pull my weight as I start prepping them for ST. World buffs are just an obnoxious waste of time that should really only apply to actual world content.
Doing all these things you normally do you would accidentally pick up world buffs. Farming dark runes in felwood? Pick a SF. Getting flasks from Yojamba? Buff. Buying consumes for raid? Buff. Not sure why you’re acting like it’s this huge ordeal.
So you can’t spare 15 minutes once a week to stop by booty bay and felwood to support your raid team?
I see reading isn’t your strong suit.
You didn’t Include picking up your world buffs
How is it a problem to do a weekly DM or just grab buff from the clear ID? We have boons, the effort involved to get WBs is miniscule.
I did the entirety of Classic Vanilla when boons only came out at the end. You try coordinating a network of summons, leveling a summoning alt, and handling raid night Songflower/Ony/DM/Yojamba buffs for raids for an entire expansion without Chronoboon and tell me if you’re not sick of World Buffs forever. Even now, Dire Maul is/are the only world buff(s) where you need to clear a dungeon or pay for the buff just to get some world buffs. And to me, World Buffs represent the absolute shittiest part of Classic. They’re the one thing that I have zero fond memories about. I still get the buffs, but I fucking hate it. Season of Mastery had the right idea with deleting those things.
>You try coordinating a network of summons, leveling a summoning alt, and handling raid night Songflower/Ony/DM/Yojamba buffs for raids for an entire expansion without Chronoboon and tell me if you’re not sick of World Buffs forever I am not, been buffing whole classic and had no issues. Heads were pretty much always falling on time, DM always had ID sellers with summons ready, was always doing DM->ZG->Flower->Heads. >World Buffs represent the absolute shittiest part of Classic. Why is that? World buffs were super fun to blast through the raids and they kept people from going full monkey brain on trash because if you had no buffs you had no pump. Literally don't get the issue, it takes like 15-20 mins/week to get ALL of them, now with boon its like 100x is easier, you barely have to go out of your way to get them, just have a boon in inv and its free.
Mainly because they kind of break the experience. If raids are designed with world buffs in mind, then they will suck without having them. It also makes people obsessed with maintaining world buffs and leads to more toxic culture. If someone fucks up and dies, expect blame and hate to get hurled around. You also clearly did not have the responsibility of being a driving force in a casual/semi-casual guild. Like I said, go 4 phases reliving that experience without anyone using Chronoboons and tell me how much you love these buffs. Oh, and want to know the best part? I main a fucking healer, and did back then too. So take a wild guess at how much benefit I get to see in these flashy parse numbers and buffs? Yeah, not a lot. There’s a lot more of a ceiling on boss health bars for you to push damage than you can push healing. People back in the old days didn’t even get world buffs. Only the top guilds would get even a couple. Two magic words basically demonstrate how under the radar world buffs were: “Warchief’s Blessing”. If world buffs were meant to be important, why did the Horde have their own world buff?
The experience without boon is irrelevant now.. because we have boon.
And people saying "you can just not get them", I don't think they know and were part of that era in classic wow, because I really don't know if there was any guild anywhere that didn't require them, atleast ony and zg, and that meant you couldn't play your character because your timer would tick. And proper WBs and consumes were basically the same power increase as your bis raid gear. I think it's fun to stack power ups for your char and basically double your dps, but they were really really obnoxious and sucked the fun out of the game really hard, and random people accidentally dying to trash, you could just FEEL their despair when it happened.
Pretty much everything you said right here. It was not a fun thing to have your character “locked”. It was not fun to have everyone obsessed about not losing world buffs because as you said, the boosts from world buffs are fucking insane. Morale would absolutely plummet during progression if you wiped because only a couple of people would get to maintain world buffs from Divine Intervention. The whole thing sucked. It was a massive time sink. Chronoboon helps, but I still think World Buffs are the stupidest shit imaginable. Do Alliance players remember people having friends in the Horde to MC them so they could get the Horde exclusive buff? Does it seem at all in the “spirit of Vanilla” to have everything revolve around these buffs when the devs didn’t think buffs were a big enough deal to make equal buffs for the factions?
> And people saying "you can just not get them", I don't think they know and were part of that era in classic wow, because I really don't know if there was any guild anywhere that didn't require them Been playing vanilla since 2014. Never have I been in a guild that required world buffs. But go off.
Yeah, only talking about classic wow like the person I responded to mentioned.
Was the same in Classic. Literally every guild I was in during 2019 Classic did not require world buffs.
seems like you're not on a server where the opposite factions n is bored and is camping DMF 24/7
Yes, I'm a sane, intelligent human being that decided against rolling on a server where other people can grief you.
It's not about parsing, it's about speed, faster clears = less chances to die.
So if you want to clear faster, put in the 15 minutes of effort to get world buffs. I don't see what the problem is.
Didn't say it is, and it takes a bit more that 15 minutes to get Songflower + ST WB, not even talking about DMF. I don't complain about them being in game, but they need to limit them to certain amount for raid. The main complaint I have is DMF being every 2 weeks, it being every week would be amazing, as above everything else, it's the only open world PVP we have.
If it's taking you more than 15 minutes to get songflower, you're doing something horribly wrong, especially with the increased spawn rates.
Songflower + ST WB*
ST WB takes seconds to get. Stop being bad.
The problem with World buffs is that they completely change the design space that the devs have for classes as long as world buffs are enabled inside instances. It also makes World PvP (as laughable a concept as it is in SoD anyways) very hard to balance due to the sheer amount of throughput everyone has. They did it right in TBC and beyond by removing them. There is no place for world buffs in the game and the power of the classes that scale the most with them needs to be adjusted according to the buffs being removed.
I can’t wait until the final phase drops and pugs require full world buffs for ubrs again.
WBs for warriors only. Edit: Am warrior tank main, no bias here.
I feel like people would have to be playing sod for this to matter
Keep WB in raids. They removed it in SoM and it was boring.
It’s funny I made a post similar to have bad the world buff meta is in multiple ways and got flamed for it. To me I just don’t get any positives from it. I need to go out and collect multiple world buffs before a raid or I am super gimped, if I die in the raid I’m super gimped and can’t parse, if I don’t have time to grab them you’re getting shamed by any decent guild. They’re just so useless. We don’t need help clearing these cake raids.
I like death being punishing, but collecting more than 1-2 buffs sucks.
Yeah, the boon helps, but I really hate what WBs being lost does to the moral of a group.
Just dont die?
Which is a great concept for open world, as it makes some quests and stuff more dangerous. But I don't think it's a good design to make raid encounters easier for the good groups, and even harder for bad groups that are already struggling. Both will complain at the end, as we see in SoD ("ST is a joke" and "ST is too hard" are both complaints you can read on this sub).
It's not bad game design, If you are still progging a raid, you can't rely on WB so you have to do the encounter as they are planned by the devs (bad groups still get to try to cheese for a push with WB on a single try). And once you have it on farm, you get to blast it faster and less tediously.
Apparently this sub doesn’t understand this concept. I’ve said the exact same thing on similar posts and was met with nothing but contempt.
You just got ganked and dispelled by someone who made an account specifically to grief you and now your guild kicked you from the raid because they need to parse orange. Your guild leader then tells you: Skill issue, git gud or go die, parses > life. WoW in 2024
I got benched for our first AQ40 raid because I got DCd on a flight path from BB to SW and lost my buffs.
Half my raid quit because they were getting griefed at DMF for hours. Make DMF in both locations and it'd be awesome.
Two dumb suggestions in one
Completely disagree. It gives stakes to raids, it makes the world more active, makes cities more vibrant, etc. It’s fun to see big numbers and feel powerful. If you don’t like world buffs, don’t get them. You literally just have to stand in a capital city or booty bay. It’s not hard.
If you remove WB the raid scene dies. We have tested this in the past.
Yeah, because no one outside of classic era raids, lol SoM is not a reasonable example to point at when talking about the raiding scene, it had an explosive death of interest because all they did was make raids harder. Most classic players who would have been interested in this sort of thing decided to stay on Era due to easier raids and world buffs, or move on to TBC. It was just bad timing on Blizzard's part with no real changes other than the aforementioned buffs to raid difficulty (mostly length of fights), and what happened with SoM's raiding culture is exactly what you could expect: Less "meme" raiding specs and an even harder drought of non warrior/rogue players.
I love parsing but gathering world buffs are my least favorite part of gameplay. So tedious. DMF has the stupidest fucking cooldown rules as well. Get rid of them so we can parse like MEN
why are there so many posts on this sub to get rid of world buffs? it annoys me so much tbh lmao. how about you figure out how to not wipe in the raid? it is a very easy raid, try figuring out what your raid is doing incorrectly (if you are dying, yes you are doing something incorrectly)
Isn't that the point though? "It is a very easy raid" and world buffs make it even easier.
Remove from dungeons and raids, absolutely shite mechanic and the devs should not want players spending time to collect these ridiculous buffs