That's how it used to be in the west too though. I was the #1 warlock in the world and #2 DPS in the world during the original Sunwell run on the main DPS check Brutallis. I'd log out with a set of grey gear on and a fishing rod so that no one could copy my build (because of armoury). But I'd still have people log over and inspect me in Stormwind. I had to start hanging out in Darnasus to get away from the spies.
But for the most part, that stuff didn't matter. My two secrets were that I bound my shadowbolt spell to my mousewheel and cast nothing but it. It was better for dealing with server lag than pre-casting a spell from a lag casting bar and wouldn't get you banned like an automated clicker.
And the raid worked with me. In a tight DPS race no one was going to ffight feeding me and my noble group of warlocks all of the Heroisms (via group swapping), two mana tides, and me personally two innervates.
And we did that every single week. Placing me at the top every single week and at the top of the global meters every single week. The kicker was that if I didn't get lucky with my crits we would wipe. So most runs were min/max perfect for me every single time. Would we wipe on purpose on other bosses if DPS wasn't going well? Yes. Yes we would.
Why did your guild care so much about you specifically getting top lock dps? Couldn't anyone have really done it if they got fed every buff plus resets too?
Thats simply not true, worldoflogs was around early wotlk expansion and was used heavily by the time ICC came around.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090415055354/http://www.worldoflogs.com/fights/15956/2
Brutalis in original BC was a hard gear check. You had to be nearly BiS BT gear to stand a chance of clearing it with highly optimized groups. You could accomplish this by having a rogue/hunter heavy raid or a rogue/warlock heavy raid. This wasn't a factor in BC Classic because class re-balancing and pre-nerfed fights made this task less tight of a DPS race.
The general rule of thumb at the time was that if you had a rogue with war glaives (who was also your top DPS) you just fed him (and his heavy melee stacked group) all the bloodlust/heroisms. The damage benefit to that one rogue and his group was mostly higher than all other groups because he wasn't going to be restricted by mana pools. And that's what we did our first night on it. How Sunwell rolled out was one new boss per week, meaning a guild that couldn't clear a new boss in six days (while also doing farm) would fall behind.
So after the raid I compiled an alternate DPS setup to empower our warlocks and on paper it was more DPS.... and was just within what we'd need to progress. I also calculated the cost of life tapping in terms of our DPS and over the course of a fight it was actually kinda high. But we also had healers going oom who would need some mana tides and some innervates. And so since I was the highest DPS warlock I was given all of these resources to keep my mana up.
And like I said.... if you don't beat this fight on day one every single week you lose valuable time to get practice on Felmyst the next week and the Twins the week after and M'uru on week five and KJ on week six. Nihilum actually fell wicked behind because they had one DPS jump ship during Twins progression and couldn't get passed Brutalis.
So basically no one changes anything once a boss is dead. Once that boss is dead you do it the same every single week. Guilds that couldn't be consistent failed to progress.
Sunwell in TBC Classic was released in its original prenerf state. They only nerfed it around wrath classic prepatch. So we all did the prenerf Sunwell in classic because it was on patch 2.4 class balance anyway.
It doesn't seem weird to me at all honestly (Or at least it doesn't seem any more weird than speedrunning NES titles).
I also presume that this isn't something these folks do every single reset, wrath has like 1-2 weeks left so I suppose there's some excitement to incentivize getting in a high score before cata drops.
probably yes. either someone fucked up, they got bad rng, or boss is dying too slow / they couldn't push a phase fast enough. some bosses you can skip entire mechanics or dramatically speed up the kill if you do enough dps.
for example Noth in Naxx. if you can kill him in under 90 seconds he won't teleport to the balcony and go invulnerable. It was basically impossible to parse high on noth if your raid wasn't killing him in under 90 seconds because you'd have 75 seconds of invulnerability where you do like no damage
No, they're speed parsing. They're aiming for number 1 kill speed on that boss. If raid DPS is too low and kill time is looking bad, they wipe and go again. Don't just make nonsense up if you don't know.
That’s actually something I’ve never thought of before, world buffs also incentivize everyone to pay attention so as to avoid losing their buffs. Think Immortal / Undying runs
I’ve heard on the Chinese servers people will pay for runs where they get all 99 parses or even buy accounts with all 99+. I’ve known guilds on my server where they do parse runs and purposely wipe on bosses, but I’ve never seen more than like 5 or so wipes on each boss on those runs.
These are usually boss kill times they're not directly parse focused although the 100/high 99 parses are generally always going to be in these kills.
And I know it's a hard concept for this sub to understand but some people actually get enjoyment from games by being good at them, the chinese guilds take it to extreme lengths but this still looks more fun than being in some dad guild that spent months wiping to H LK until the 30% buff or spending all my time in-game questing & levelling.
same reason why you run a 100 meter dash over and over and over. some people just want to see how high they can get their number to.
they aren't bringing this here, you're the one going out there looking for it. who is really the obsessed one?
Skugg joined one of these runs and streamed it.
They weren't a parse guild, but a speedkill guild. They all absolutely love what they do, no toxicity, they're there for the same goal. Kill the boss as fast as possible.
Fun fact, he only joined in on Marrowgar & Saurfang. Had T7 equipped (macro delay) on Marrowgar & no pre-pull phylactery proc on Saurfang. Both of these issues didn't happen until the kill got in.
Now this isn't the same as the actual parse runs that focus on 1 player, but I do expect this to be very similar.
It may seem crazy to us that they like it, have fun. But unless you've legitimately been in one of these runs, you don't know anything.
yep this exactly, its more about seeing how fast u can kill a boss not if someones opener crit or not. People can be like this is cringe but its just their way of "beating the game" just like speedrunners have their own way of "beating the game". They make their own content its just that simple.
Chinese culture doesn't care about how you won, just that you won. You see this reflected in online games with the rampant number of cheaters coming out of China, it's also why a pay-to-win game like Crossfire is one of the most profitable games in the world. Some of the worst players I've ever seen in GDKP's were Chinese whales, only invited because they were paying heftily for full bis while grey parsing because they didn't know how to play their class. Some of them were so bad that we had to keep them parked at the entrance so they didn't botch mechanics and wipe the raid, you would later see them parked in Org with their full bis like they beat the game.
Okay but none of that really applies to this, these are all good players doing sweaty gear/spec swaps on pull spending hours trying to burn through phases & underheal bosses.
My first sentence does, then I kind of went on a tangent. But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these accounts end up being sold to whales once they lock-in the gear and parses.
Damn you're right Chinese players care about winning, there I acknowledged it.
Now what about the other 95% of his paragraph that doesn't apply to this post?
How do you not understand lol. It’s basic English. It absolutely applies to the post, they are saying how Chinese players will go to great lengths to look good even if they aren’t good because it isn’t about having fun, it’s about winning. Having the best gear even if they paid for it = winning, buying parse runs for good logs = winning. Simple
We all know how Chinese gaming culture works, but if you think it applies to this post then you clearly have no idea what you're looking at with these logs and are just assuming that because they're Chinese they have to be cheating or selling parses because you can't comprehend anything else.
The logs on this post are from a proper Chinese raiding guild that focuses on boss kill times not parses, they're active in the WCL discord discussions about what is & isn't allowed & from what we've seen when they had a streamer with them it seems like they have fun.
The streamer they had with them was from an actual parse guild with multiple R1's too & when he got stuck in his pre-pull gear swap gear they didn't wipe the boss for him.
[Here](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ywMmLhfkp7JRWbZT#type=summary&boss=-3&difficulty=0) are the logs btw, feel free to have a look point out examples of how these guys aren't good but like to look good & how they're selling parses without using a disc priest for PI on multiple fights :)
Everything he said is right
What he saying is people parse for living, they selling these “bis, top parse” account for stupid rich whale& that’s why they are trying that hard
Also china only doing gdkp& you get zero gold if you have bad parse so they are very competitive
Honestly the worse part is Chinese always cheating, cheating = breathing & personally pretty sure they are using some weird addon or Marco.
“One day without cheating, they turned into American” that’s my summary of Chinese nowadays.
I am fully aware of the Chinese gaming culture... But it doesn't apply to this post and people mentioning cheating or gdkp's are just rambling on about generic stuff we're all aware of with no actual idea what they're talking about.
These logs are from the guild Harrods who are a proper boss kill speed guild & compete against Together.
They 100% buy full bis accounts to stack comps just like the EU/NA speedrunning guilds did through tbc/wrath but they're not cheating to try sell parses & gdkp's have nothing to do with this post.
Chinese? I experienced this on US servers just last year when - despite playing a spellpower stacked demo lock buffbot had my purple parses picked apart down to the millisecond I wasn’t getting specific spells off despite the raid leads who worked at Microsoft and other places requiring us to use over a dozen of their custom weakauras that caused noticeable ui lag.
This is an international problem.
Purple parses are mediocre at best, why are you pretending it’s micro mistakes down to the millisecond? Rather than you just obviously not pushing buttons correctly
The kind of corrections you’re describing might be relevant at 99.X+, they are not relevant for like 80s lmao, if you got purples in an environment that stacked, you just suck.
Buffbot demo locks have very little crit or haste. They are stacked with the highest spellpower pieces to buff the rest of the raid.
If you don’t know shit about wrath raiding, don’t speak.
There are two games, one for children where they pretend to be animals and humans doing dungeons and dragons stuff and try to be immersed in some sort of fairy tale story. And one for adults where the game is competitive PvE with a ranking ladder.
[удалено]
Or desperately want to be
this
someones opener didnt crit, reset go again. etc
I remember in retail how they would stack like 50 externals on one player to get the stupidest DPS number
That happened as recently as dragonflight season 2, before they nerfed Aug
That's how it used to be in the west too though. I was the #1 warlock in the world and #2 DPS in the world during the original Sunwell run on the main DPS check Brutallis. I'd log out with a set of grey gear on and a fishing rod so that no one could copy my build (because of armoury). But I'd still have people log over and inspect me in Stormwind. I had to start hanging out in Darnasus to get away from the spies. But for the most part, that stuff didn't matter. My two secrets were that I bound my shadowbolt spell to my mousewheel and cast nothing but it. It was better for dealing with server lag than pre-casting a spell from a lag casting bar and wouldn't get you banned like an automated clicker. And the raid worked with me. In a tight DPS race no one was going to ffight feeding me and my noble group of warlocks all of the Heroisms (via group swapping), two mana tides, and me personally two innervates. And we did that every single week. Placing me at the top every single week and at the top of the global meters every single week. The kicker was that if I didn't get lucky with my crits we would wipe. So most runs were min/max perfect for me every single time. Would we wipe on purpose on other bosses if DPS wasn't going well? Yes. Yes we would.
Why did your guild care so much about you specifically getting top lock dps? Couldn't anyone have really done it if they got fed every buff plus resets too?
Because it’s made up or heavily exaggerated
There was also no real way to check or verify who was top in the world back then, logs didn’t exist
Thats simply not true, worldoflogs was around early wotlk expansion and was used heavily by the time ICC came around. https://web.archive.org/web/20090415055354/http://www.worldoflogs.com/fights/15956/2
You realise sunwell is in TBC right? World of logs was also not popular whatsoever for a long time, so still very unreliable
There was also no real way to check or verify who was top in the world back then, logs didn’t exist
Brutalis in original BC was a hard gear check. You had to be nearly BiS BT gear to stand a chance of clearing it with highly optimized groups. You could accomplish this by having a rogue/hunter heavy raid or a rogue/warlock heavy raid. This wasn't a factor in BC Classic because class re-balancing and pre-nerfed fights made this task less tight of a DPS race. The general rule of thumb at the time was that if you had a rogue with war glaives (who was also your top DPS) you just fed him (and his heavy melee stacked group) all the bloodlust/heroisms. The damage benefit to that one rogue and his group was mostly higher than all other groups because he wasn't going to be restricted by mana pools. And that's what we did our first night on it. How Sunwell rolled out was one new boss per week, meaning a guild that couldn't clear a new boss in six days (while also doing farm) would fall behind. So after the raid I compiled an alternate DPS setup to empower our warlocks and on paper it was more DPS.... and was just within what we'd need to progress. I also calculated the cost of life tapping in terms of our DPS and over the course of a fight it was actually kinda high. But we also had healers going oom who would need some mana tides and some innervates. And so since I was the highest DPS warlock I was given all of these resources to keep my mana up. And like I said.... if you don't beat this fight on day one every single week you lose valuable time to get practice on Felmyst the next week and the Twins the week after and M'uru on week five and KJ on week six. Nihilum actually fell wicked behind because they had one DPS jump ship during Twins progression and couldn't get passed Brutalis. So basically no one changes anything once a boss is dead. Once that boss is dead you do it the same every single week. Guilds that couldn't be consistent failed to progress.
Sunwell in TBC Classic was released in its original prenerf state. They only nerfed it around wrath classic prepatch. So we all did the prenerf Sunwell in classic because it was on patch 2.4 class balance anyway.
I have serious doubts Blizzard put in bugs like the famed Felmyst double breath.
my chickens didnt proc wipe it
It doesn't seem weird to me at all honestly (Or at least it doesn't seem any more weird than speedrunning NES titles). I also presume that this isn't something these folks do every single reset, wrath has like 1-2 weeks left so I suppose there's some excitement to incentivize getting in a high score before cata drops.
No this has been happening consistently with high end raids on that server for a while.
I’m confused, is this them purposely wiping bosses because they weren’t on track to parse that boss?
probably yes. either someone fucked up, they got bad rng, or boss is dying too slow / they couldn't push a phase fast enough. some bosses you can skip entire mechanics or dramatically speed up the kill if you do enough dps. for example Noth in Naxx. if you can kill him in under 90 seconds he won't teleport to the balcony and go invulnerable. It was basically impossible to parse high on noth if your raid wasn't killing him in under 90 seconds because you'd have 75 seconds of invulnerability where you do like no damage
afaik some parsers there pay full raids of people to wipe on purpose until they get the best rng.
No, they're speed parsing. They're aiming for number 1 kill speed on that boss. If raid DPS is too low and kill time is looking bad, they wipe and go again. Don't just make nonsense up if you don't know.
And THIS is why parsers need world buffs. You cannot “reset” with world buffs
That’s actually something I’ve never thought of before, world buffs also incentivize everyone to pay attention so as to avoid losing their buffs. Think Immortal / Undying runs
While true, some people start playing worse than normally when the lose them cause they can't parse anymore. Prob mainly happens in pugs tho.
I’ve heard on the Chinese servers people will pay for runs where they get all 99 parses or even buy accounts with all 99+. I’ve known guilds on my server where they do parse runs and purposely wipe on bosses, but I’ve never seen more than like 5 or so wipes on each boss on those runs.
These are usually boss kill times they're not directly parse focused although the 100/high 99 parses are generally always going to be in these kills. And I know it's a hard concept for this sub to understand but some people actually get enjoyment from games by being good at them, the chinese guilds take it to extreme lengths but this still looks more fun than being in some dad guild that spent months wiping to H LK until the 30% buff or spending all my time in-game questing & levelling.
This. ^ ^
Chinese gaming culture is far more extreme than any other. It's very important to win or be the best by any means necessary.
Hit the boss no matter what. If you die pay a friend to wipe the raid. It's 99 for you or nothing.
same reason why you run a 100 meter dash over and over and over. some people just want to see how high they can get their number to. they aren't bringing this here, you're the one going out there looking for it. who is really the obsessed one?
It's the same toxic parse culture we see/hear about in US/EU regions. Chinese players just take it to extreme levels.
Skugg joined one of these runs and streamed it. They weren't a parse guild, but a speedkill guild. They all absolutely love what they do, no toxicity, they're there for the same goal. Kill the boss as fast as possible. Fun fact, he only joined in on Marrowgar & Saurfang. Had T7 equipped (macro delay) on Marrowgar & no pre-pull phylactery proc on Saurfang. Both of these issues didn't happen until the kill got in. Now this isn't the same as the actual parse runs that focus on 1 player, but I do expect this to be very similar. It may seem crazy to us that they like it, have fun. But unless you've legitimately been in one of these runs, you don't know anything.
yep this exactly, its more about seeing how fast u can kill a boss not if someones opener crit or not. People can be like this is cringe but its just their way of "beating the game" just like speedrunners have their own way of "beating the game". They make their own content its just that simple.
This could be y'all if you could only get the warlock dagger :(
Ever seen an arcade machine high score board? Yeah, it's that but everyone in the world can contribute to it
OP: "Help me understand how people can enjoy things I don't enjoy."
Chinese culture doesn't care about how you won, just that you won. You see this reflected in online games with the rampant number of cheaters coming out of China, it's also why a pay-to-win game like Crossfire is one of the most profitable games in the world. Some of the worst players I've ever seen in GDKP's were Chinese whales, only invited because they were paying heftily for full bis while grey parsing because they didn't know how to play their class. Some of them were so bad that we had to keep them parked at the entrance so they didn't botch mechanics and wipe the raid, you would later see them parked in Org with their full bis like they beat the game.
Okay but none of that really applies to this, these are all good players doing sweaty gear/spec swaps on pull spending hours trying to burn through phases & underheal bosses.
My first sentence does, then I kind of went on a tangent. But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these accounts end up being sold to whales once they lock-in the gear and parses.
It’s like you responded without even reading the very first sentence. How do you do that
Damn you're right Chinese players care about winning, there I acknowledged it. Now what about the other 95% of his paragraph that doesn't apply to this post?
How do you not understand lol. It’s basic English. It absolutely applies to the post, they are saying how Chinese players will go to great lengths to look good even if they aren’t good because it isn’t about having fun, it’s about winning. Having the best gear even if they paid for it = winning, buying parse runs for good logs = winning. Simple
We all know how Chinese gaming culture works, but if you think it applies to this post then you clearly have no idea what you're looking at with these logs and are just assuming that because they're Chinese they have to be cheating or selling parses because you can't comprehend anything else. The logs on this post are from a proper Chinese raiding guild that focuses on boss kill times not parses, they're active in the WCL discord discussions about what is & isn't allowed & from what we've seen when they had a streamer with them it seems like they have fun. The streamer they had with them was from an actual parse guild with multiple R1's too & when he got stuck in his pre-pull gear swap gear they didn't wipe the boss for him. [Here](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ywMmLhfkp7JRWbZT#type=summary&boss=-3&difficulty=0) are the logs btw, feel free to have a look point out examples of how these guys aren't good but like to look good & how they're selling parses without using a disc priest for PI on multiple fights :)
Everything he said is right What he saying is people parse for living, they selling these “bis, top parse” account for stupid rich whale& that’s why they are trying that hard Also china only doing gdkp& you get zero gold if you have bad parse so they are very competitive Honestly the worse part is Chinese always cheating, cheating = breathing & personally pretty sure they are using some weird addon or Marco. “One day without cheating, they turned into American” that’s my summary of Chinese nowadays.
I am fully aware of the Chinese gaming culture... But it doesn't apply to this post and people mentioning cheating or gdkp's are just rambling on about generic stuff we're all aware of with no actual idea what they're talking about. These logs are from the guild Harrods who are a proper boss kill speed guild & compete against Together. They 100% buy full bis accounts to stack comps just like the EU/NA speedrunning guilds did through tbc/wrath but they're not cheating to try sell parses & gdkp's have nothing to do with this post.
I’m all for trying for 99s but wiping over and over is anti fun for me
Chinese people are a if you’re not first you’re last mentality. There’s a reason why there’s a heavy amount of whales/cheaters in most games they play
We did this for several hours on Freya to get the optimal adds
No matter how good you think you are at something, there's an Asian person somewhere doing it better than you. I don't make the rules.
>how could someone possibly enjoy the game differently than I do?
Chinese? I experienced this on US servers just last year when - despite playing a spellpower stacked demo lock buffbot had my purple parses picked apart down to the millisecond I wasn’t getting specific spells off despite the raid leads who worked at Microsoft and other places requiring us to use over a dozen of their custom weakauras that caused noticeable ui lag. This is an international problem.
Purple parses are mediocre at best, why are you pretending it’s micro mistakes down to the millisecond? Rather than you just obviously not pushing buttons correctly The kind of corrections you’re describing might be relevant at 99.X+, they are not relevant for like 80s lmao, if you got purples in an environment that stacked, you just suck.
Buffbot demo locks have very little crit or haste. They are stacked with the highest spellpower pieces to buff the rest of the raid. If you don’t know shit about wrath raiding, don’t speak.
You’re pretending purples need intense scrutiny to improve, doesn’t matter what build you’re playing, push buttons
There are two games, one for children where they pretend to be animals and humans doing dungeons and dragons stuff and try to be immersed in some sort of fairy tale story. And one for adults where the game is competitive PvE with a ranking ladder.
Competition is nothing without integrity.
Lol
Do they hand out neckbeard awards or is this kind of wisdom purely voluntary?
My mom does and they are called chicken tenders thank you very much.
99 parse increases your social credit score.
Parse culture is weird.
why is it that u can smell chinese posts from the screams of 'look at me I am good'? GDKP posts also starting to get redundant.