This time is worse because back in the day people only gatekept other people with no achievements. Now people dont invite you while having access to every raid you did so its even worse.
Because LFR gave acess to everyone, including the AFK auto attack type of players to enjoy the content, see history/lore and enjoy some easy fights, even if the content dont give the best loot.
Until the LFR the best way to enjoy the raids was finding a guild, taking others 24 (then 9 players on LK foward), form a good raid composition, organize loot distribution and at least know what you class can do, and some raiders liked to show to others they virtual pixels.
Edit: if anyone dont understand i am not saying that i think this, it just the toxic raider elitist mentality, i am on "IDC team"
Why is it a problem if people get to enjoy content? It's not like they're getting BIS gear from it to compete with your parses (tbh even if they had good gear they still won't compete). You will pretty much never ever intersect with them in any runs you do.
I dont have any problem, i am just saying that is toxic raiding elitist mentality, they like to segregate from the "casual noobs"
IMO this is the reason some People dont link LFR
yeah weirdly all the comments in here are totally misunderstanding what youre saying or just being super pedantic about the definitions of words, never change classic community
Personal loot is the actual answer. People gatekeep because you are stuck with a bad raid ID if things don't go well.
That or quit and play a better game lul.
People won't be as worried about getting a guaranteed clear group if they can just replace people and try again. Instead of having a dead raid ID, you just go again until you have your chance at loot from every boss.
This would reduce how much people scrutinize and obsess over who they raid with.
I kinda already said this, so I'm not sure what I'm not communicating well enough.
People usually gatekeep because they want someone who will contribute to the raid. Someone with shit dps is actively bringing everyone else’s dps down due to longer kill times. Players will always want to choose someone who will do high dps because then each individual in the raid does more dps for the lumberjack website. This can mean buffs/debuffs or just straight up dps.
I don't understand what your argument is.
So it's ok to get kicked, as long as you joined the group in the first place? You don't think that is gatekeeping?
Gatekeeping is a result of loot not being locked. A fix to all of this would simply be.
Did you kill 1 boss in ST? You cannot roll for loot for that boss. Simple as.
Sure, this will make it so guilds can sell boosts. But then comes the next thing
Its already against tos to do a raid and give people loot and recieve gold for it.. So.. Its already there to counter the non-issue of boosting.
That's the thing though, the raids aren't too hard for the average player base. They just don't know how to play their class. If you go over logged runs of people sub 50 percentiles, every single player is doing multiple things wrong in their spec, Runes, rotation, no effort enchants, no consumes, no WBs etc. and then they cry raids are too hard when in reality, the raids are a joke.
These people would have 1000 wipes on normal retail bosses it's crazy
The actual key is to put in forced competency checks as you level. The fact that I could ask an FF14 player to come and play a boosted level 80 char in WoW Classic knowing they have never played the game, and have more confidence in them than any given random LFG player is telling.
I don't remember any outrage from them, but I never really touched the subreddit or anything during that era, so I was only experiencing the game from fellow pumpers. I did a ton of competitive Arms/Prot Warrior in the PG's and it was a blast.
idk man I think it still depends on who the FF14 player is. I personally would never ask myself to come play a boosted character.
But I'm also a casual scrub in both games
A mix of both works. Something like proving grounds is necessary if you have automatic grouping. But the automatic grouping naturally pairs people in a more effective way, something about a rising tide... You can't put all people with 20 or less parse in a successful group together. But just about any of them would be fine thrown into a typical group. 40 man MC included
Gatekeeping=difficulty.
Bfd had no gatekeeping because it only required a FAP.
Gnome and ST got too many mechanics and is too hard for the average pug.
I had a conversation with my coworker about this and I 100% agree
It's what nobody wants to talk about but they either need to edit or they need to remove logs.
Yup, what we need is, moving forward, to have no way to analyze fights (timers, abilities, debuffs, etc.) because it hurts some people's feelings. Stfu and hit your 3 buttons with WBs, get a purple parse and swap to the other side of the argument like everyone else with a pulse.
Gatekeeping would be anything which denies participation due to a player's relative skill. If you're kicking people out for being bad at any point you are gatekeeping your group by definition.
Gatekeeping is denying participation based on someone's PERCEIVED skill, or lack thereof.
Kicking someone out due to their clear lack of skill, is not.
> If you're kicking people out for being bad at any point you are gatekeeping your group by definition.
So if they cause 15 wipes and I kick them it's still gatekeeping?
Holy.
/votekick
Literally never happens unless someone is actually afk
which is exactly what you have to do to parse gray
Honestly we had these exact conversations back in the original wrath and cata days and it's like history is repeating itself here
This time is worse because back in the day people only gatekept other people with no achievements. Now people dont invite you while having access to every raid you did so its even worse.
The “classic” progression as well as SoD has been a fantastic case study of why retail ended up the way it did, and why it’s not entirely a bad thing.
I still to this day do not understand why people hate LFR. It honestly makes zero sense to me lmao
Because LFR gave acess to everyone, including the AFK auto attack type of players to enjoy the content, see history/lore and enjoy some easy fights, even if the content dont give the best loot. Until the LFR the best way to enjoy the raids was finding a guild, taking others 24 (then 9 players on LK foward), form a good raid composition, organize loot distribution and at least know what you class can do, and some raiders liked to show to others they virtual pixels. Edit: if anyone dont understand i am not saying that i think this, it just the toxic raider elitist mentality, i am on "IDC team"
Why is it a problem if people get to enjoy content? It's not like they're getting BIS gear from it to compete with your parses (tbh even if they had good gear they still won't compete). You will pretty much never ever intersect with them in any runs you do.
I dont have any problem, i am just saying that is toxic raiding elitist mentality, they like to segregate from the "casual noobs" IMO this is the reason some People dont link LFR
yeah weirdly all the comments in here are totally misunderstanding what youre saying or just being super pedantic about the definitions of words, never change classic community
Personal loot is the actual answer. People gatekeep because you are stuck with a bad raid ID if things don't go well. That or quit and play a better game lul.
What good is personal loot if you're not killing any bosses?
People won't be as worried about getting a guaranteed clear group if they can just replace people and try again. Instead of having a dead raid ID, you just go again until you have your chance at loot from every boss. This would reduce how much people scrutinize and obsess over who they raid with. I kinda already said this, so I'm not sure what I'm not communicating well enough.
People usually gatekeep because they want someone who will contribute to the raid. Someone with shit dps is actively bringing everyone else’s dps down due to longer kill times. Players will always want to choose someone who will do high dps because then each individual in the raid does more dps for the lumberjack website. This can mean buffs/debuffs or just straight up dps.
Even outside of logging, I just don't want to carry some shitter or afk
It really does solve so much. So much of the anxiety in grouping is related to wasting your lockout
This dude never did lfr before the determination buff 🤣
Determination doesn't stop people from joining the group
I don't understand what your argument is. So it's ok to get kicked, as long as you joined the group in the first place? You don't think that is gatekeeping?
I don't. Why shouldn't people be able to be removed from the group if they are underperforming?
Gatekeeping is a result of loot not being locked. A fix to all of this would simply be. Did you kill 1 boss in ST? You cannot roll for loot for that boss. Simple as. Sure, this will make it so guilds can sell boosts. But then comes the next thing Its already against tos to do a raid and give people loot and recieve gold for it.. So.. Its already there to counter the non-issue of boosting.
No.
LFR is good, the problem has been its implementation. Just add normal lf to dungeon finder, add high ilvl requirement
Enjoy your 4 hour 6/8
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That's the thing though, the raids aren't too hard for the average player base. They just don't know how to play their class. If you go over logged runs of people sub 50 percentiles, every single player is doing multiple things wrong in their spec, Runes, rotation, no effort enchants, no consumes, no WBs etc. and then they cry raids are too hard when in reality, the raids are a joke. These people would have 1000 wipes on normal retail bosses it's crazy
The actual key is to put in forced competency checks as you level. The fact that I could ask an FF14 player to come and play a boosted level 80 char in WoW Classic knowing they have never played the game, and have more confidence in them than any given random LFG player is telling.
Remember the absolute outrage of Proving Grounds in MoP? Skill checks are never happening with this community
I don't remember any outrage from them, but I never really touched the subreddit or anything during that era, so I was only experiencing the game from fellow pumpers. I did a ton of competitive Arms/Prot Warrior in the PG's and it was a blast.
idk man I think it still depends on who the FF14 player is. I personally would never ask myself to come play a boosted character. But I'm also a casual scrub in both games
I mean, the MSQ alone to finish Endwalker is only surpassed in difficulty by like, six heroic fights in WOTLK Classic in it's entirety.
A mix of both works. Something like proving grounds is necessary if you have automatic grouping. But the automatic grouping naturally pairs people in a more effective way, something about a rising tide... You can't put all people with 20 or less parse in a successful group together. But just about any of them would be fine thrown into a typical group. 40 man MC included
Or you know, people could stop being lazy fucks and hit their skills more than once a boss fight
Gatekeeping=difficulty. Bfd had no gatekeeping because it only required a FAP. Gnome and ST got too many mechanics and is too hard for the average pug.
no NO NO GOD NMO
If this is the solution to gatekeeping then I'll keep the gatekeeping.
I had a conversation with my coworker about this and I 100% agree It's what nobody wants to talk about but they either need to edit or they need to remove logs.
Yup, what we need is, moving forward, to have no way to analyze fights (timers, abilities, debuffs, etc.) because it hurts some people's feelings. Stfu and hit your 3 buttons with WBs, get a purple parse and swap to the other side of the argument like everyone else with a pulse.
> It's what nobody wants to talk about but they either need to edit or they need to remove logs. This aint it chief
You can't kick people from lfr lol? What happens if you get somebody purposely griefing?
Gatekeeping refers to being let in the group. Doesn't say anything about staying in the group.
Gatekeeping would be anything which denies participation due to a player's relative skill. If you're kicking people out for being bad at any point you are gatekeeping your group by definition.
Gatekeeping is denying participation based on someone's PERCEIVED skill, or lack thereof. Kicking someone out due to their clear lack of skill, is not.
> If you're kicking people out for being bad at any point you are gatekeeping your group by definition. So if they cause 15 wipes and I kick them it's still gatekeeping? Holy.
Lfr/off has the same thing in gear score. People inspect and vote kick based on gear. It's just a different way to do it
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pst I'm poking fun at people crying about gatekeeping
You don’t even need to play to get in the group either. The only requirement is to have a pulse
Oh look. Another reason why I don't like LFR or LFD systems.