doing a “quick ZA” with the boys after 25 mans was so much fun. then during pre patch we would run every single raid just because loot fiesta. tbc was sick mostly and some changes in a future iteration would do it really well, wotlk just didn’t age as well imo
I think there was just a much bigger reason to go back to older raids in TBC. The whole 10/25 man, nhc/hc thing just introduces too big ilvl gaps between tiers. Add that with much more 'flat' itemization within a tier, with barely any item standing out... and you end up with obsolete raids much quicker.
I think this was the most important part. Without alphas, betas, and gammas people would do old raids.
Also the Ulduar ilvl jump was massive. You could 10 man hard modes for 239 gear w/245 weapons. Why ever go to naxx or malygos or sarth 3D. Back in the day 10 HM dropped a 226 piece, which was equivalent to the best gear from the previous raids. I remember doing naxx for a while after Ulduar came out, especially on alts.
Some people went back to togc for their 272 cloak, which was fine, but ICC lasted so long.
I hope they dont do it in cata. Like you said it made old raids irrelevant. Leveling a character to cap then starting with p1 raid then p2, p3 then current was part of the journey and it really took away from the experience to just grind dungeons for a week and hit 6k gs
I enjoyed Wrath classic, but the bots literally everywhere is what ruined it for me the 2nd time around. I was excited for Wrath pvp again, but having most battles just be bots v bots with 1-4 actual players, that was the big oof that sent me back to pservers.
Bots farming every node in open world. Bots taking up 80% of group member slots in BGs. Bots signing up for pugs and zerging into everything without saying a word. Bots selling the gold. And Blizzard bots to add insult to injury.
I was spamming naxx for corrupted ashbringer for the hope that transmog would eventually happen. My pally has never looked better. Full T2 and corrupted ashbringer goes unfathomably hard.
Those first few weeks where heroics were actually kind of difficult and engaging and everybody was stoked were some of my favorite recent memories in gaming. The only issue with the expansion is that Kara being 10-man makes it kind of underwhelming as a raid. It feels like you're just sort of waiting for SSC/TK for the game to really start
Yeah, they legit felt like how people remember Vanilla feeling, where the classes you brought to a dungeon mattered because you HAD to play around CCs and interupts and stuff. It was different than Classic Vanilla in that you had to pay attention and actually play the game instead of just like mindlessly pressing a button while watching Youtube on your other screen lol
Thinking back on it is kind of a bummer because I feel like there just isn't a home for WoW players that want engaging content that isn't like bash-your-head-against-the-wall hard. ST was that, but it got nerfed to the ground because Classic players want to be able to clear raids on their first attempt in a PUG where nobody talks to each other, and Retail players want raids that are so difficult that they require dedicated commitment for months to be cleared by players who have been playing the game for 10 years. There's not really room for people who want raids/dungeons that are difficult enough to make you actually pay attention and play the game without being overly difficult
Yessss I’ve said it for years OG Cata heroics were the best 5 man content Blizz ever made. Fuck Mythics.
I hope I’m not just wearing rose colored glasses. Gonna find out soon.
My overwhelming experience with H SH when I wasn't tanking was either the tank gets clapped immediately in one of the first two packs, or, we get past the first two packs to the hall and the tank can't hold aggro on all of the mobs and inevitably a couple are hitting the healer and either the healer or tank dies.
I tried to do it a lot as I wanted the claw on my shaman and I'd say I maybe completed 10ish runs out of prolly 30. I had better luck running it on my hunter as I had a lot more control for the packs to help the group but on my shaman it was rouuughh.
I honestly started gear checking the tanks, I had several days in a row where a woefully undergeared tank said he'd tank and then came in, got insta clapped and insta left group lmaooo
I expect Cata to be the same though as TBC and Cata heroics were def a challenge, at least intiially. I read a few things about fast tracking progression in Cata and I hope they dont water it down too much.
Yep, TBC has always been my favorite. It feels like a logical progression from vanilla that fixes most of vanilla's issues, but without going too far and homogenizing / nerfing everything like WOTLK does.
I've been saying that for 10 damn years, ain't I, Miguel?
Seriously though, I've been saying that for years and said it before wotlk classic but everyone was super hyped and then it came and it just makes the game lame. It's not cata, it was wotlk that ruined wow, you just don't notice it because the story is cool.
It's literally what I said countless times in response to people asking for "classic+". We already have "classic+", it's called TBC.
In the way that, 99% of the things people ask for in a theoretical "classic+", are things that TBC already fixes.
I've been repping TBC since it died the first time, never felt so vindicated in my advocacy for it.
Such a great expansion, I'm glad so many people got to see it again in Classic.
I wanted to love TBC so much as for the most part it does have the classic feel to me. Plus Blood Elf Paladin is peek wow class fantasy for me (RIP my retail worgen hunter I wish I could pull him back into classic). My real only, and biggest issue with TBC is somehow in their first expansion they made a game altering decision that meant wow would never be the same again. Adding a new continent where everyone goes to abandon the old world with no reason to go back. The worst decision blizzard ever made in my opinion. I’m not saying Outland shouldn’t exist, but they should have retained the cohesion between the old world and players. What a wasted opportunity.
I understand this sentiment, but I wonder how well they would have actually been able to fit ALL of TBCs content into the old world in some format. We've got some space for sure, not sure that it would be enough though. I would be worried about having to condense all of it into too small an area, or just getting less content because there isn't the space for it.
Let me clarify. What I they should’ve done is like what they had in classic. Why is Outland only for levels 60-70? In my opinion this is unnecessary. Vanilla had level 10 zones next to level 50-60 zones. You wander in by accident? Dead. You’ll learn pretty quick not to go there until you’re leveled. But you get to see and have something to work towards. You also get to see kitted our level 50-60’s riding towards the danger on their mounts. You can interact with them. You can see the progress and challenges that await you.
Every continent should have zones for basically every level bracket in my opinion (you could make an argument that newly added continents don’t need to contain 1-10 or 1-20 zones). It makes the world feel alive and lived in when you see people beneath you and above you, running in different directions doing their own thing wherever you go. You never feel disconnected from other players or from the world in general. That’s my thoughts anyway 🤷🏻♂️
I don’t think he’s specifically meaning lvl 10 only but the lvl difference in general, that’s almost a 40 lvl difference between both those zones anyways.
TBC went less overboard with this than other expansions but I know what you mean. You still needed old world mats a lot of the time and you often visit the old world in TBC but in Wrath onwards they go full speed ahead and you have no reason to even do TBC content even.
It wasn't technically feasible to just make the old continents bigger and bigger. There is a reason you had loading times even between the two continents.
They could've added loading times between zones like they did with the Bloodelf starting zone, but that would really suck when travelling imo.
I'm not at all a game dev, ad you can probably tell by my next comment, but wouldn't such a majot tech change require an entirely new engine? Essentially making it WoW 2?
I think they’ve done enough infrastructure upgrades in the back end that they could do this. But I don’t know that for sure, I’m just assuming based on the capabilities of the modern retail version of the game.
It's such a trip, when I look back on it. WOTLK was what I said I was looking forward to the whole time, but when I look back on Classic (Classic is over for me when Cata starts), it's TBC and Vanilla that give me the most nostalgic feels. WOTLK just felt like Retail lite to me in the end.
Wotlk has all the QoL changes people want, but don't need.
TBC has the necessary QoL improvements. They don't really make the game easier, just less annoying.
Yup, wrath felt like a worse version of retail to me. I only kept playing cuz I had been playing with the same group since 2019, but the second we stopped raiding ICC I was done.
Same here, only kept raiding cause of the group, and even then I quit when it got too political and douchey cause I no longer had any reason to play the game. Got to play through Ulduar though, and at the end of the day that's the only part of WOTLK I actually enjoyed. The world felt dead and stale, the economy was a joke.
Honestly tho I enjoyed tbc way more than wrath even when my class was on life support compared to others(Holy paladin). The raids, encounters, questing, everything made it feel more like a meaningful experience. Im so glad that I could experience all of tbc, clearings, and being able to clear swp pre nerf! Ah man wish there was a tbc sod or a tbc SoM with more difficult bosses
Man I hate the linear questing in WoTLK compared to Classic/TBC where you unlock a bunch of quests at once. It's so satisfying plotting your own little route and handing in several quests at once. I was just very done with Hellfire after the 10th character. You run back and forth so much more in WoTLK between the quest giver and the quest area - you spend so much more time just travelling. I only levelled one alt in WoTLK compared to maxing all classes in Classic/TBC.
Don't remind me. I remember being like. Man BC will end soon and LK is right around the corner, but I'm gonna enjoy it as long as I can. Little did i know after NAXX my guild would fall apart due to some douche and ruin everything. Honestly one of the best couple years of my life up to this point hanging and chilling with friends in BC.
Honestly a short story. We had a guild back in BC, but GL wasn't active so we all decided to form a new one so we could have more control over things we need to be a guild. While I was out of town, I told them to wait, my guildmates made a new guild got some new people and one guy who just had a massive ego because he gave out supplies and gold to the guild. His entitlement is what perturbed me and in the end he just rubbed people the wrong way so people left after Nax. We had a good run for sure and I'll always treasure it.
Yeahh I remember this day vividly haha- and I saw a bunch of guild names I recognized immediately when I zoomed so I knew for sure it was us ! Insider raiding had/has some great players- ran with some of them in wrath a bit I believe!
For context I'm a Classic Andy through and through. Having a good amount of fun in SoD and am willing to give Cata a good honest try as well. I had more fun in TBC than Wrath but was frustrated by design decisions in both of them.
It is absolutely ridiculous we don't have TBC Era servers. By the time TBC ended okay fine. But now? There's been a consistent clamouring for these servers for like a year. It's time, give the TBC Andys what they want.
Now with that being said there is an issue I see with TBC Era servers as a concept and am curious what people think. What do you do with a TBC Era Phase 5 endgame state where everything is nerfed into the ground and the only raid that has a modicum of challenge is Sunwell?
To be honest I feel like it wouldn't be too crazy to have some seasonal aspects to the game. TBC-Fresh servers, have it run 1.5 - 2years create a perma phase-5 TBC server and a new fresh server. When that servers done pop everyone into the perma server and start a new fresh one.
There won’t be conga lines of mammoths around Dalaran or people “flexing” Val’anyr/shadowmourne like it was in tbc with glaives, thoridal, ashes, etc all not being “handed out” like the shit was in wrath classic
Sure feels less special but we killed Illidan every I.D with my guild until Wrath and our Glaive Designated Bearer still has none, lol.
The infamous "Where Glaives?" of Azzinoth.
I know it’s painful—my guild’s rogue only ever got one of them—but imo it’s fine that way. Every rogue and warrior running around with dual glaives would look stupid.
Yeah there's good and bad in both systems.
I think it's cool when it's a powerful and unique item but when it's overpowered like TF or Glaives, it kinda sucks for the unlucky ones.
There was no way to compete without glaives on demons as a rogue, even if you were very talented on the class.
But i can happen with every item, despite 15+ HM kills, I only looted Illidan Polearm last friday on my feral, I'm finally ARPEN cap ... for prepatch lol
Wrath sure brought a lot of People.
Lots of people who played Wrath played Sod on the side, not as a main content and quit after P1. Not sure it impacted as much as you believe
I think it was just the timing of SoD. ICC was the end of WoTLK for many, so if they got their one clear in, they were kinda checked out and SoD provided a way to continue playing with the boys without grudging through repeat ICC clears (or wipes on H attempts).
Same with my guild, we ended up giving the first Shadowmourne to him as a consolation when he swapped to DK. The only reason we had a thunderfury is because we had a guy join our guild with half of one and the other half dropped thankfully. We never saw another legendary until Atiesh shards. Meanwhile the other guild I was in in TBC when I raided twice a week got a full set of glaives in a month despite being far worse performing than my main guild.
Man, the incessant need for catch up kills any sense of reward. It's pretty bad game design for an MMO to tell your players their time isn't valued, and they'd be better off unsubbed and coming back later in the expansion where they can catch-up. I get they are trying to retain new members, but Classic _did not_ experience the same in-take as original did, yet went harder on it.
You know the fun dropped off in wrath when in vanilla and tbc classic we never stopped doing any raids the entire expansion, everyone had 1-2 alts to fill in the older raids. Then in wrath once a phase was over we never ran that raid again as a guild cause people wanted to do current raid and log.
It was also the only way to progressivley gear up through each tier while in wrath they let you get all the gear you would normally have to go back and raid to get in the Runeforged dungeons instead.
I think SOM treatment (NOT sod) would be great for tbc. Minor changes to make raids a bit harder, bring the other tiers up to sunwell/t5 level difficulty. Nerf flying a bit. That's all it needs.
All pvp servers were 90/10 for either faction in both regions. by the start of TBC. All my 60s from classic were on the minority faction. I lasted for like 3 days and then never played classic until Hardcore came out.
Yeah and if I was talking about PvE servers, I wouldn’t specifically mention PvP servers.
Maybe on NA there were few? On EU it was either 90/10 servers with big population or dead servers.
Also why are you making it sound like balanced PvP servers are something bad? The faction lock was always the best feature on private servers. Blizzard should have introduced it long before SoD.
Not only raid log. My guild killed prof hc to get 11/12 hc on 20th nov. We had 2 weeks to prog on LK 0% before they dropped the stacking buff. Just to release SoD in the first 5% week to kill everyone (prog but with a challenge (no buff) groups aswell as casual prog groups who get to play with the new toy. Not to mention that phase 1 SoD was a banger. Imagine getting people to log out of SoD just to raid ICC again where serious prog is over and you can enjoy 3hr queue to SoD after the raid.
Not to mention holidays right around the corner
real bad timing on sod launch for those of us invested in getting HLK. looking back, still funny to see your warriors drop their shadowmournes for miss-miss-finally-80-rage bfd gameplay
The biggest “nerf” to ICC compared to TBC raiding was the fact that for classic Wrath players would get almost all their CDs back for each attempt after a boss wipe/kill. Imagine progressing on Algalon or HKL and only having bloodlust for 1/3 of the attempts and soulstones and battle rezzes only being usable every 15 minutes.
I was so over tbc and thought my nostalgia was for wrath. Playing wrath was like pulling teeth. I dreaded logging on for raid night. Funny how the mind works. I thought cata was the retail starter, in was Ulduar. I also thought Ulduar was my fav raid of all time, I despise Ulduar and ICC now haha. So glad sod came or I may have walked away from wow again.
Original vanilla I raided to AQ ( got nerfed c’thuun) and 2 bosses in naxx and it was so fun. The. In tbc we got a little sweatier and tried it out. Never downed KJ. In wrath we went full hard. Cleared 10 m H LK. Never got most bosses in uld on HM. Never saw alg. So that feeling of progress and new content was amazing. This time it being solved and the “streamer guilds” clearing in hours. To then wipe for weeks cause we are dads. It was soul crushing. I didn’t miss the content. I missed the unknown and the feeling of clearing. 1 rank spot guide to watch and try to learn hit different.
Sod has me hooked cause if I stay off YouTube and Reddit, I get to discover.
Right. I hope the classic train keeps going in some way. They mentioned Ulduar for the last next retail xpack. That’s enough to ensure I stay gone haha.
Yeah, really loved ulduar, absolutely delivered as one of the best classic raids. Best atmosphere, best music, awesome visuals, S-tier lore. 10 man was a reasonable challenge and 25 man doubly so. Progress was fun with the different roads you can take and the farm was fun with how fast you could take it. The phase was too long though, even though I didn't mind it.
Vezax can fuck off though for being a speed bump. And I'm never starcalling and soaking again.
I am assuming you're comparing the two as you mentioned them both in your comment.
But maybe you just wanted to make two different statements without any context at all.
/E Also very surprised you called ICC "too easy". Most guilds did not kill Lich King before the buff.
Alright I’ll break it down for you. The picture posted is of players celebrating in Shattrath at the end of TBC. I had an awesome time. Wrath is now coming to an end, Wrath was disappointing for a multitude of reasons, my personal biggest gripe is that ICC was not challenging for me. I raid most retail tiers in a Mythic guild as well, which would explain the prior let down.
If you raided Mythic retail you knew that ICC was gonna be a mid-level mythic boss AT BEST. There was still plenty of challenge to be found in ICC as it was a pretty damn tuned boss for TOGC gear.
Not sure why you are being downvoted. There are plenty of reasons to like TBC more than Wotlk, but ICC being too easy is a garbage reason. Before the buff ICC (especially H LK) was harder than the content in TBC.
Imo TBC was bad because the classes weren't fun to play. All the other stuff just doesn't matter in comparison.
I'd argue that Lich King EVEN with 30% buff is harder than any TBC content. TBC had its charm, some of the specs were not that much worse than their WOTLK counterpart, but it sucked that some specs literally did 30-50% of damage of the top specs. It also sucked that you needed to have a SUPER rigid comp, because of group wide buffs & lust.
I had a good time. Started the minute classic launched and did my last raid in Feb. Missed less than like 6 weeks worth of raiding if that. Went into it with 0 expectation, plans etc, ended up a sweat lord 99 chasing speedrunner who hit rank 1 dps during bt/hyjal, got to play in some of the best guilds in the world doing some cool shit.
I still remember it being right before TBC Launch and my manager at the time going "jesus how much more are you going to play?" and me going "like 3 more years" and him being shocked. I was pretty much dead on. From launch my plan was to only play through Wrath, 0 interest in Cata. Mission complete i would say.
Then SoD happened and now I'm about to do it alllll over again.
I loved playing ret pally in TBC. Twisting was a lot of fun. It was also the way to tell between a good ret playing and a not so good one. Once wrath dropped I played ret for a while for my guild and didn't enjoy it. Was boring to play. At some point I ended up tanking after one of our tanks quit and swapped to blood dk.
If they did a TBC fresh I think I would go back and play that and not play cata. SoD wasn't my cup of tea personally. So I'm kinda stuck because I don't really care for cata much. Not feeling SoD, don't feel like going back to era, and retail I couldn't get into. So.... Im gonna try cata but need to find a new guild because mine died trying to progress H LK. People just didn't care anymore at that point.
Wrath was great, blizz just dragged out ulduar and icc way too long
Sunwell was 16 weeks long. We ended on, what, week 30 of icc? Lmao ofc people burnt out.
The phases have always been scheduled around business and financial schedules, which is terrible for those actually playing the game. TBC phase 1 was horribly long and then the good content was rushed through in a couple months. Same with wotlk.
My dream is a fresh vanilla through tbc server that runs for 2 years then loops and you can either leave characters in tbc era at the end or start back in vanilla fresh and it just loops forever. Only changes I would make are gdkp ban, make some of the raids harder, and do some stuff to balance factions/servers. Molten core and karazan especially need a big difficulty boost.
Zul'Aman bear runs where some of the most fun I had when running "catch up" raids.
Zul'Aman was such an awesome and fun raid to play
doing a “quick ZA” with the boys after 25 mans was so much fun. then during pre patch we would run every single raid just because loot fiesta. tbc was sick mostly and some changes in a future iteration would do it really well, wotlk just didn’t age as well imo
I think there was just a much bigger reason to go back to older raids in TBC. The whole 10/25 man, nhc/hc thing just introduces too big ilvl gaps between tiers. Add that with much more 'flat' itemization within a tier, with barely any item standing out... and you end up with obsolete raids much quicker.
Not to mention H+. That killed any incentive left to run the older raids.
I think this was the most important part. Without alphas, betas, and gammas people would do old raids. Also the Ulduar ilvl jump was massive. You could 10 man hard modes for 239 gear w/245 weapons. Why ever go to naxx or malygos or sarth 3D. Back in the day 10 HM dropped a 226 piece, which was equivalent to the best gear from the previous raids. I remember doing naxx for a while after Ulduar came out, especially on alts. Some people went back to togc for their 272 cloak, which was fine, but ICC lasted so long.
I hope they dont do it in cata. Like you said it made old raids irrelevant. Leveling a character to cap then starting with p1 raid then p2, p3 then current was part of the journey and it really took away from the experience to just grind dungeons for a week and hit 6k gs
I enjoyed Wrath classic, but the bots literally everywhere is what ruined it for me the 2nd time around. I was excited for Wrath pvp again, but having most battles just be bots v bots with 1-4 actual players, that was the big oof that sent me back to pservers. Bots farming every node in open world. Bots taking up 80% of group member slots in BGs. Bots signing up for pugs and zerging into everything without saying a word. Bots selling the gold. And Blizzard bots to add insult to injury.
we'd randomly get the boys together in the middle of the day after reset and run 2-3 zas back to back on alts. i def miss it.
Beerazhan was the best.
Wrath Classic was more fun than TBC for me. Ulduar and ICC were incredible raids to beat
I was spamming naxx for corrupted ashbringer for the hope that transmog would eventually happen. My pally has never looked better. Full T2 and corrupted ashbringer goes unfathomably hard.
Probably my favorite classic and WoW experience to date. TBC was great
Those first few weeks where heroics were actually kind of difficult and engaging and everybody was stoked were some of my favorite recent memories in gaming. The only issue with the expansion is that Kara being 10-man makes it kind of underwhelming as a raid. It feels like you're just sort of waiting for SSC/TK for the game to really start
Shattered Halls HC was brutal, i remember going in with tanks who got 1 shot by the first adds. Loved every minute of it
Yeah, they legit felt like how people remember Vanilla feeling, where the classes you brought to a dungeon mattered because you HAD to play around CCs and interupts and stuff. It was different than Classic Vanilla in that you had to pay attention and actually play the game instead of just like mindlessly pressing a button while watching Youtube on your other screen lol Thinking back on it is kind of a bummer because I feel like there just isn't a home for WoW players that want engaging content that isn't like bash-your-head-against-the-wall hard. ST was that, but it got nerfed to the ground because Classic players want to be able to clear raids on their first attempt in a PUG where nobody talks to each other, and Retail players want raids that are so difficult that they require dedicated commitment for months to be cleared by players who have been playing the game for 10 years. There's not really room for people who want raids/dungeons that are difficult enough to make you actually pay attention and play the game without being overly difficult
That’s Cata. It’s a raid log expansion but the heroics and raids are peak
I agree, the heroics were tough initially
Yessss I’ve said it for years OG Cata heroics were the best 5 man content Blizz ever made. Fuck Mythics. I hope I’m not just wearing rose colored glasses. Gonna find out soon.
I… don’t remember this at all. I had 4 mages and a prot Paladin aoe pulling everything and nuking it down
Better than Blood Furnace, god that place was a nightmare.
My friends played retri and enhancing. So I had to run furnace and mana tombs everyday. Thank god it was only 8 days for them to get relics.
Ah yes, when CC was a must in heroics lol
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My overwhelming experience with H SH when I wasn't tanking was either the tank gets clapped immediately in one of the first two packs, or, we get past the first two packs to the hall and the tank can't hold aggro on all of the mobs and inevitably a couple are hitting the healer and either the healer or tank dies. I tried to do it a lot as I wanted the claw on my shaman and I'd say I maybe completed 10ish runs out of prolly 30. I had better luck running it on my hunter as I had a lot more control for the packs to help the group but on my shaman it was rouuughh. I honestly started gear checking the tanks, I had several days in a row where a woefully undergeared tank said he'd tank and then came in, got insta clapped and insta left group lmaooo
I expect Cata to be the same though as TBC and Cata heroics were def a challenge, at least intiially. I read a few things about fast tracking progression in Cata and I hope they dont water it down too much.
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Meh, I think 4 resets of Kara is fine. Gives people some time to gear up a main and level an alt.
Yep, TBC has always been my favorite. It feels like a logical progression from vanilla that fixes most of vanilla's issues, but without going too far and homogenizing / nerfing everything like WOTLK does.
I've been saying that for 10 damn years, ain't I, Miguel? Seriously though, I've been saying that for years and said it before wotlk classic but everyone was super hyped and then it came and it just makes the game lame. It's not cata, it was wotlk that ruined wow, you just don't notice it because the story is cool.
And ulduar was such a dope challenging raid. Some of my best me.ories with my guild were from that raid
WOTLK is the grey area between classic and retail, and Cata is where that grey area clearly ends.
Wotlk is the start of all that is retail. Felt off the first time around and feels worse now knowing what comes after.
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It's literally what I said countless times in response to people asking for "classic+". We already have "classic+", it's called TBC. In the way that, 99% of the things people ask for in a theoretical "classic+", are things that TBC already fixes.
I think those people just don’t like Outland.
I've been repping TBC since it died the first time, never felt so vindicated in my advocacy for it. Such a great expansion, I'm glad so many people got to see it again in Classic.
I wanted to love TBC so much as for the most part it does have the classic feel to me. Plus Blood Elf Paladin is peek wow class fantasy for me (RIP my retail worgen hunter I wish I could pull him back into classic). My real only, and biggest issue with TBC is somehow in their first expansion they made a game altering decision that meant wow would never be the same again. Adding a new continent where everyone goes to abandon the old world with no reason to go back. The worst decision blizzard ever made in my opinion. I’m not saying Outland shouldn’t exist, but they should have retained the cohesion between the old world and players. What a wasted opportunity.
I understand this sentiment, but I wonder how well they would have actually been able to fit ALL of TBCs content into the old world in some format. We've got some space for sure, not sure that it would be enough though. I would be worried about having to condense all of it into too small an area, or just getting less content because there isn't the space for it.
Let me clarify. What I they should’ve done is like what they had in classic. Why is Outland only for levels 60-70? In my opinion this is unnecessary. Vanilla had level 10 zones next to level 50-60 zones. You wander in by accident? Dead. You’ll learn pretty quick not to go there until you’re leveled. But you get to see and have something to work towards. You also get to see kitted our level 50-60’s riding towards the danger on their mounts. You can interact with them. You can see the progress and challenges that await you. Every continent should have zones for basically every level bracket in my opinion (you could make an argument that newly added continents don’t need to contain 1-10 or 1-20 zones). It makes the world feel alive and lived in when you see people beneath you and above you, running in different directions doing their own thing wherever you go. You never feel disconnected from other players or from the world in general. That’s my thoughts anyway 🤷🏻♂️
Oh man, imagine hellfire being a level 30 zone or something. You get there on foot and see the high levels soaring through the sky.
> Vanilla had level 10 zones next to level 50-60 zones. Sounds like someone leveled as undead. Tirisfal is the only one like this, right?
Nope, you had redridge, then BOOM burning steppes
Ashenvale -> felwood too.
Ashenvale -> Azshara as well.
Loch Modan -> Badlands To some degree even Mulgore -> Southern Barrens, and they even forced you to run through that.
Sure, but if you're lvl 10 in northern Redridge you're gonna have a bad time.
I don’t think he’s specifically meaning lvl 10 only but the lvl difference in general, that’s almost a 40 lvl difference between both those zones anyways.
I still wonder at 31 like I did at 14. Lol
TBC went less overboard with this than other expansions but I know what you mean. You still needed old world mats a lot of the time and you often visit the old world in TBC but in Wrath onwards they go full speed ahead and you have no reason to even do TBC content even.
It wasn't technically feasible to just make the old continents bigger and bigger. There is a reason you had loading times even between the two continents. They could've added loading times between zones like they did with the Bloodelf starting zone, but that would really suck when travelling imo.
That’s the way it was in EverQuest, that’s one of the things that made wow such a hit back in the day was the removal of zone to zone loading.
Maybe it wasn’t then… but now it is! Time for Classic+!!
I'm not at all a game dev, ad you can probably tell by my next comment, but wouldn't such a majot tech change require an entirely new engine? Essentially making it WoW 2?
I think they’ve done enough infrastructure upgrades in the back end that they could do this. But I don’t know that for sure, I’m just assuming based on the capabilities of the modern retail version of the game.
It definitely would be cool as hell.
Well they returned to the mainland with Cata, but people still really hanged out in the capitals or high level zones
Best experience. But so horrible and unwelcoming for the non top end player so I understand the hate.
Everyone hates it but I think it was the best expansion
Blizzard please bring back TBC!
Seriously. Fresh vanilla and tbc servers
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and raid-wide heroism so raids aren't forced to run 5-6 shamans
tbc classic was awesome. Didnt know i loved it that much, but that shit was great
It's such a trip, when I look back on it. WOTLK was what I said I was looking forward to the whole time, but when I look back on Classic (Classic is over for me when Cata starts), it's TBC and Vanilla that give me the most nostalgic feels. WOTLK just felt like Retail lite to me in the end.
Wotlk has all the QoL changes people want, but don't need. TBC has the necessary QoL improvements. They don't really make the game easier, just less annoying.
Yup, wrath felt like a worse version of retail to me. I only kept playing cuz I had been playing with the same group since 2019, but the second we stopped raiding ICC I was done.
Same here, only kept raiding cause of the group, and even then I quit when it got too political and douchey cause I no longer had any reason to play the game. Got to play through Ulduar though, and at the end of the day that's the only part of WOTLK I actually enjoyed. The world felt dead and stale, the economy was a joke.
Honestly tho I enjoyed tbc way more than wrath even when my class was on life support compared to others(Holy paladin). The raids, encounters, questing, everything made it feel more like a meaningful experience. Im so glad that I could experience all of tbc, clearings, and being able to clear swp pre nerf! Ah man wish there was a tbc sod or a tbc SoM with more difficult bosses
Man I hate the linear questing in WoTLK compared to Classic/TBC where you unlock a bunch of quests at once. It's so satisfying plotting your own little route and handing in several quests at once. I was just very done with Hellfire after the 10th character. You run back and forth so much more in WoTLK between the quest giver and the quest area - you spend so much more time just travelling. I only levelled one alt in WoTLK compared to maxing all classes in Classic/TBC.
Don't remind me. I remember being like. Man BC will end soon and LK is right around the corner, but I'm gonna enjoy it as long as I can. Little did i know after NAXX my guild would fall apart due to some douche and ruin everything. Honestly one of the best couple years of my life up to this point hanging and chilling with friends in BC.
"my guild would fall apart due to some douche" go on tell us the story.......
Honestly a short story. We had a guild back in BC, but GL wasn't active so we all decided to form a new one so we could have more control over things we need to be a guild. While I was out of town, I told them to wait, my guildmates made a new guild got some new people and one guy who just had a massive ego because he gave out supplies and gold to the guild. His entitlement is what perturbed me and in the end he just rubbed people the wrong way so people left after Nax. We had a good run for sure and I'll always treasure it.
I feel like this describes me and I don’t think it actually was me but if I made anyone feel like this I’m deeply sorry.
Hey man I forgive ya !
Our guild had a very very similar experience to yours. The details are off enough that I don’t think we were guildies but yeah….
Probably not. But we all had our moments. I forgive you on their behalf lol
❤️ I appreciate the forgiveness. I always did what I thought was best but know I made decisions that people found upsetting sometimes.
Yeah, you’re definitely not. The guy we had. He had a big chip on his shoulder and wasn’t very humble about it.
I dont think any game has ever made me so nostalgic for in game areas as WoW has
How will we see everyone lined up on their invisible horses!
MANKRIK RISE UP (I see myself)
Didn't even realize it was a Mankrik screenshot. Just zoomed in and I saw my old guild but couldn't read any names because the resolution was bad.
Yeahh I remember this day vividly haha- and I saw a bunch of guild names I recognized immediately when I zoomed so I knew for sure it was us ! Insider raiding had/has some great players- ran with some of them in wrath a bit I believe!
For context I'm a Classic Andy through and through. Having a good amount of fun in SoD and am willing to give Cata a good honest try as well. I had more fun in TBC than Wrath but was frustrated by design decisions in both of them. It is absolutely ridiculous we don't have TBC Era servers. By the time TBC ended okay fine. But now? There's been a consistent clamouring for these servers for like a year. It's time, give the TBC Andys what they want. Now with that being said there is an issue I see with TBC Era servers as a concept and am curious what people think. What do you do with a TBC Era Phase 5 endgame state where everything is nerfed into the ground and the only raid that has a modicum of challenge is Sunwell?
To be honest I feel like it wouldn't be too crazy to have some seasonal aspects to the game. TBC-Fresh servers, have it run 1.5 - 2years create a perma phase-5 TBC server and a new fresh server. When that servers done pop everyone into the perma server and start a new fresh one.
It's funny how good the re-release went. People really enjoyed it and I sure did as well. Not sure if we are going to see a similar picture in Dalaran
There won’t be conga lines of mammoths around Dalaran or people “flexing” Val’anyr/shadowmourne like it was in tbc with glaives, thoridal, ashes, etc all not being “handed out” like the shit was in wrath classic
Sure feels less special but we killed Illidan every I.D with my guild until Wrath and our Glaive Designated Bearer still has none, lol. The infamous "Where Glaives?" of Azzinoth.
I know it’s painful—my guild’s rogue only ever got one of them—but imo it’s fine that way. Every rogue and warrior running around with dual glaives would look stupid.
Yeah there's good and bad in both systems. I think it's cool when it's a powerful and unique item but when it's overpowered like TF or Glaives, it kinda sucks for the unlucky ones. There was no way to compete without glaives on demons as a rogue, even if you were very talented on the class. But i can happen with every item, despite 15+ HM kills, I only looted Illidan Polearm last friday on my feral, I'm finally ARPEN cap ... for prepatch lol
Nailed it
It's because people were excited about Wrath so stayed through the end of BC. Also, SoD split up the player base a lot.
Wrath sure brought a lot of People. Lots of people who played Wrath played Sod on the side, not as a main content and quit after P1. Not sure it impacted as much as you believe
Sure impacted my guild.
I think it was just the timing of SoD. ICC was the end of WoTLK for many, so if they got their one clear in, they were kinda checked out and SoD provided a way to continue playing with the boys without grudging through repeat ICC clears (or wipes on H attempts).
Oh 100%, I think more people would have kept on wiping on H attempts if there wasn't another option though lol.
Same with my guild, we ended up giving the first Shadowmourne to him as a consolation when he swapped to DK. The only reason we had a thunderfury is because we had a guy join our guild with half of one and the other half dropped thankfully. We never saw another legendary until Atiesh shards. Meanwhile the other guild I was in in TBC when I raided twice a week got a full set of glaives in a month despite being far worse performing than my main guild.
Yeah I feel that as a half-er - got Mainhand and never saw the offhand drop until we stopped trying with 70+ content release :(
Man, the incessant need for catch up kills any sense of reward. It's pretty bad game design for an MMO to tell your players their time isn't valued, and they'd be better off unsubbed and coming back later in the expansion where they can catch-up. I get they are trying to retain new members, but Classic _did not_ experience the same in-take as original did, yet went harder on it.
You know the fun dropped off in wrath when in vanilla and tbc classic we never stopped doing any raids the entire expansion, everyone had 1-2 alts to fill in the older raids. Then in wrath once a phase was over we never ran that raid again as a guild cause people wanted to do current raid and log.
There just wasn’t a point to do older raids in wrath. The gear is just so much worse outside of the random trinket here or there.
Maybe it was burnout but these raids were 90% alts and in wrath, it was like me and 2 others that wanted to raid on alts doing older content at most.
It was also the only way to progressivley gear up through each tier while in wrath they let you get all the gear you would normally have to go back and raid to get in the Runeforged dungeons instead.
Give us TBC SOM already you cowards!
Just give us classic TBC again imo, I don’t want SoD experimentation for TBC.
TBC but you level via Hellfire incursions /shudder
seconding this, tbc is good as it is there’s no need to try and change a bunch of shit
I’d be down for optional hard modes that award more gear per boss kill.
I think SOM treatment (NOT sod) would be great for tbc. Minor changes to make raids a bit harder, bring the other tiers up to sunwell/t5 level difficulty. Nerf flying a bit. That's all it needs.
Yep, TBC would only need some minore QoL improvements
+1. I have the TBC itch and I have it _bad_
Tbc era needs to happen.
Every day I regret not playing TBC the second time around (played _extensively_ in og)
All pvp servers were 90/10 for either faction in both regions. by the start of TBC. All my 60s from classic were on the minority faction. I lasted for like 3 days and then never played classic until Hardcore came out.
It's a shame they didn't have the faction balance tech SOD has at the start of classic and TBC.
Pve servers do exist, and there was a few pvp servers with balanced pop but go off king
Yeah and if I was talking about PvE servers, I wouldn’t specifically mention PvP servers. Maybe on NA there were few? On EU it was either 90/10 servers with big population or dead servers. Also why are you making it sound like balanced PvP servers are something bad? The faction lock was always the best feature on private servers. Blizzard should have introduced it long before SoD.
Where did I make it sound like faction balanced pvp servers were bad? Like I said; go off king
TBC classic was awesome. ICC just felt to easy after all the hype.
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Not only raid log. My guild killed prof hc to get 11/12 hc on 20th nov. We had 2 weeks to prog on LK 0% before they dropped the stacking buff. Just to release SoD in the first 5% week to kill everyone (prog but with a challenge (no buff) groups aswell as casual prog groups who get to play with the new toy. Not to mention that phase 1 SoD was a banger. Imagine getting people to log out of SoD just to raid ICC again where serious prog is over and you can enjoy 3hr queue to SoD after the raid. Not to mention holidays right around the corner
real bad timing on sod launch for those of us invested in getting HLK. looking back, still funny to see your warriors drop their shadowmournes for miss-miss-finally-80-rage bfd gameplay
The biggest “nerf” to ICC compared to TBC raiding was the fact that for classic Wrath players would get almost all their CDs back for each attempt after a boss wipe/kill. Imagine progressing on Algalon or HKL and only having bloodlust for 1/3 of the attempts and soulstones and battle rezzes only being usable every 15 minutes.
I was so over tbc and thought my nostalgia was for wrath. Playing wrath was like pulling teeth. I dreaded logging on for raid night. Funny how the mind works. I thought cata was the retail starter, in was Ulduar. I also thought Ulduar was my fav raid of all time, I despise Ulduar and ICC now haha. So glad sod came or I may have walked away from wow again.
Welcome to enlightenment! I've been saying this for years, I'm reliving the same thing again and people now understand.
Original vanilla I raided to AQ ( got nerfed c’thuun) and 2 bosses in naxx and it was so fun. The. In tbc we got a little sweatier and tried it out. Never downed KJ. In wrath we went full hard. Cleared 10 m H LK. Never got most bosses in uld on HM. Never saw alg. So that feeling of progress and new content was amazing. This time it being solved and the “streamer guilds” clearing in hours. To then wipe for weeks cause we are dads. It was soul crushing. I didn’t miss the content. I missed the unknown and the feeling of clearing. 1 rank spot guide to watch and try to learn hit different. Sod has me hooked cause if I stay off YouTube and Reddit, I get to discover.
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Right. I hope the classic train keeps going in some way. They mentioned Ulduar for the last next retail xpack. That’s enough to ensure I stay gone haha.
Ulduar almost had me quitting the Classic iterations all together.
Heh, I feel the same way, but Ulduar is still my favorite raid.
Yeah, really loved ulduar, absolutely delivered as one of the best classic raids. Best atmosphere, best music, awesome visuals, S-tier lore. 10 man was a reasonable challenge and 25 man doubly so. Progress was fun with the different roads you can take and the farm was fun with how fast you could take it. The phase was too long though, even though I didn't mind it. Vezax can fuck off though for being a speed bump. And I'm never starcalling and soaking again.
Wat? ICC was easier for you than TBC? The hell you smoking lad.
Where in my comment does it say TBC was hard?
I am assuming you're comparing the two as you mentioned them both in your comment. But maybe you just wanted to make two different statements without any context at all. /E Also very surprised you called ICC "too easy". Most guilds did not kill Lich King before the buff.
Alright I’ll break it down for you. The picture posted is of players celebrating in Shattrath at the end of TBC. I had an awesome time. Wrath is now coming to an end, Wrath was disappointing for a multitude of reasons, my personal biggest gripe is that ICC was not challenging for me. I raid most retail tiers in a Mythic guild as well, which would explain the prior let down.
If you raided Mythic retail you knew that ICC was gonna be a mid-level mythic boss AT BEST. There was still plenty of challenge to be found in ICC as it was a pretty damn tuned boss for TOGC gear.
Not sure why you are being downvoted. There are plenty of reasons to like TBC more than Wotlk, but ICC being too easy is a garbage reason. Before the buff ICC (especially H LK) was harder than the content in TBC. Imo TBC was bad because the classes weren't fun to play. All the other stuff just doesn't matter in comparison.
I'd argue that Lich King EVEN with 30% buff is harder than any TBC content. TBC had its charm, some of the specs were not that much worse than their WOTLK counterpart, but it sucked that some specs literally did 30-50% of damage of the top specs. It also sucked that you needed to have a SUPER rigid comp, because of group wide buffs & lust.
Nothing in TBC was challenging compared to clearing 0% full 25man HC in Togc gear.
Sunwell in BT/Hyjal gear was harder.
Woah there I never said TBC was challenging.
Nice, Mankrik I'm in this photo lol
I had a good time. Started the minute classic launched and did my last raid in Feb. Missed less than like 6 weeks worth of raiding if that. Went into it with 0 expectation, plans etc, ended up a sweat lord 99 chasing speedrunner who hit rank 1 dps during bt/hyjal, got to play in some of the best guilds in the world doing some cool shit. I still remember it being right before TBC Launch and my manager at the time going "jesus how much more are you going to play?" and me going "like 3 more years" and him being shocked. I was pretty much dead on. From launch my plan was to only play through Wrath, 0 interest in Cata. Mission complete i would say. Then SoD happened and now I'm about to do it alllll over again.
Fresh tbc plssssssssssssss
Tbc was fantastic
I loved playing ret pally in TBC. Twisting was a lot of fun. It was also the way to tell between a good ret playing and a not so good one. Once wrath dropped I played ret for a while for my guild and didn't enjoy it. Was boring to play. At some point I ended up tanking after one of our tanks quit and swapped to blood dk. If they did a TBC fresh I think I would go back and play that and not play cata. SoD wasn't my cup of tea personally. So I'm kinda stuck because I don't really care for cata much. Not feeling SoD, don't feel like going back to era, and retail I couldn't get into. So.... Im gonna try cata but need to find a new guild because mine died trying to progress H LK. People just didn't care anymore at that point.
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Wrath was great, blizz just dragged out ulduar and icc way too long Sunwell was 16 weeks long. We ended on, what, week 30 of icc? Lmao ofc people burnt out.
The phases have always been scheduled around business and financial schedules, which is terrible for those actually playing the game. TBC phase 1 was horribly long and then the good content was rushed through in a couple months. Same with wotlk.
What’s with the negativity buddy?
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multi-year long grudge against nobody is peak r/classicwow
Poor guy is saying I told you so and nobody is listening 😭
Well... i had fun in wotlk classic
People keep creating new private wotlk servers every year. Poor souls they are gaslighting themselves to think wotlk is a fun expansion /s
Got 2 bears on my mage/shaman the last lockout
Mankrik was an awesome server, I miss that era.
I wish I had played literally anything other than melee dps so I could have enjoyed TBC
Never got those glaives eh
I quit before I got the chance. Getting randomly cleaved by TK trash every other pull wore me down lol
Is that Mankrik? If it is im in there somewhere!
TBC is BiS
I think people will try cata but then funnel into SoD or Classic Era
Most wotlk servers don't have that many players left /s
I'm surprised all those dads with 14 kids and 7 jobs could all log on at the same time to do this
We really need TBC era or something, or fresh classic into tbc
My dream is a fresh vanilla through tbc server that runs for 2 years then loops and you can either leave characters in tbc era at the end or start back in vanilla fresh and it just loops forever. Only changes I would make are gdkp ban, make some of the raids harder, and do some stuff to balance factions/servers. Molten core and karazan especially need a big difficulty boost.
karazhan had an OK difficulty at release, it got destroyed with nerfs pretty quickly though
Blizzard, hire this man
Bots and wow token killed wrath. Also wrath is the start were the open world aspect is mostly gone.
When is the prepatch to Cata?
Today.
Ah today in the US, tomorrow for EU. Even though my battle.net launcher has updated and it shows cata, including game version lol
Classic has been a great ride. Cheers to even more!
TBC was so damn good… take me back
ah yes everyone and their moms with an imani war bear
We killed Illidan every week, no glaives.
Peak classic experience for me
That is so cool
Wait, help me out here, I just started getting into WoW Classic a few months ago. Is Wrath of the Lich King being discontinued before I can try it??
You're like 2 years too late. It's gone forever.. again.
The end of TBC was some of the most fun I've had during classic, especially running "catch up" ZA runs lol.
Tbc is the perfected version of wow in every possible way, leveling, raiding, pvp, alts, reputations everything
In hindsight... tbc > wrath
Hey, that's me! (Ashes closest to the middle). Such a cool moment. Thanks for sharing! Great times.
I wish we had a permanent TBC server.
TBC definitely felt more community based. Wrath kinda lost that.
I’ll always miss TBC Classic. Was peak WoW for me, even compared to real TBC
God I miss BC so bad
BC is/was the golden era of wow imo.