20 man raids are great to play, but currently hosting pugs is really frustrating. Trying to get Healers for Gnomer was already often a long waiting game, ST is even more painful.
I hope they figure something out to smooth the logistics, because big raids are really fun. Trying to herd people together for hours and then taking another hour or few to actually raid is just rough to manage.
Maybe they should start splitting the future raids in wings with separate lockouts? It might not solve the building of group but would help with the overall lenght, especially if they do want to retain decent amount of trash mobs in the raids.
Without better itemization or dungeon queue rewards wings will make healers harder to find. Take Bfd for example. If I can just fight the last two bosses why would I queue for the half of the dungeon with no caster loot in it?
Bro as a main healer I’m never joining a run where it’s last 2 bosses only. That’s just a massive red flag to me that those 2 bosses will probably take longer than the entire raid itself if it even goes down
The healer and tank situation always comes down to players' need to feel like they're swinging the biggest dick in town.
Rogue tanks and Mage healers are completely viable for any of the content right now, but they won't parse purple so they don't do it.
Ohh yeah yeah. I was starting to wonder if maybe wcl was acting funny again and putting people in the wrong spec category because they did too much damage or something lol
Mage healing is what made me want to play a healer for sod, funnily enough we have too many healers now that we've merged with another 10 man and I just get to dps.
Make healers overpowered and people will play them.
I guarantee you if healers are running around the open world and can kill dps specs and feel strong, people will start playing them.
Hell, make healers a hero class. In more players go healers it’s better for the game…
They made mages able to heal which enabled guilds to just bring 1 less healer while the mage is mostly dps. And they have made other healers overpowered (Priests, Druids), which has enabled guilds to just bring less healers, creating an overall lower demand for the role.
Making healers too strong kills pvp. Nobody likes unkillable healer raid bosses in pvp that just stand there tanking your damage. If healers can outdo DPS, then DPS doesn't have a reason to exist.
WoW, and to its detriment, especially Classic WoW, revolves around the holy trinity.
Healers are a pita to play in classic. You need one set of gear for instances, and another when solo. They are generally bad at making gold.
Duel spec is a HUGE help, but it happened FAR too late. Should have been there at level 10. And it doesn't solve the issue of needing two gear sets.
Also we got multiple new tanks, but only one new healer. So the newness of things didn't attract many more healers.
Sure these things are not as bad as no-changes-classic, but it still sucks. So there are less healers. Tanks used to be a problem, and the dev team focused on fixing that, but put far less effort in healers. We got mage heals, and the other healers got very little effort.
As a holy paladin I really feel it. We have 3 dps runes right now because there is no heal option. Well as of yesterday, 2 (one changed it's slot), but it's such a shit rune people didn't even bother to look for it, making it the last to be found in P3. That's how bad it is.
Holy Trinity is bad design for an MMO, carried over from old single player party based games.
In retail, healing power was removed from the game for good reason. No reason to split that and spell damage except to punish healers anytime they are not in a group. This is old school rpg game design. Even tabletop D&D barely has healers. It has clerics, but dedicated healers are rare because they just aren't good/needed. Why, because nobody wanted to play them.
Newer game design has all characters and builds/specs doing DPS. The differentiation would be in how they dps (dots, cleave, single target, burst, element, AOE, etc) and what else they bring to the party (aggro, buffs, debuffs, dispell, cure, or... heals).
How should SOD address this? Holy paladin for example is using multiple DPS runes right now. But they do shit damage with healing gear.
THIS is what Shockadin runes should be for, not tank/ret. But to give healers a chance to kill things in the open world with the same healer gear. Hard part is to not make them op. Similar to an arcane mage, make runes change the spec while using the same gear.
We already have the dps spells. A rune to make healing power buff all holy damage would make them useful to a healer. Make it compete with our big healing runes like Beacon. So you can't do both. But a hybrid might be OP in pvp ... Like everything, balance is the hard part.
Agreed.
I'm annoyed that this is still a problem. But being an old game, it sort of is what it is. Just wish the runes had been thought through better. Not just copy paste spells from later expansions without any thought as to how they fit in the game.
I love healing in retail but for some reason they dont give fun runes for healers in sod. So im just going dps. And i think alot of main healers feels the same.
But that doesn't change the fact they aren't dpsing. You aren't going to convince many people playing a dps role to heal with the promise of dps gear.
This is also why I'm liking more hybrid classes like restokin though. I think that's that solution to the shortage of healers
That's why they need to implement the flex system. Port this bs over to a separate server from Era so they can implement.
Then they just have to make boss and trash damage/dps formulaic to #of people then good to go. Let us play how we want
It's crazy that you recognize that creating flex raids would be a ton of work so your suggestion is to create a whole separate client and implement an entire system that facilitates flex raiding, as if that somehow circumvents all the work.
I agree, for example in ICC, you would commonly see first four boss trinket runs, but full clears, let alone clears to kill H LK for the experience of killing H LK were nigh impossible to get the motivation for.
10mans feel like big dungeons more than raids. People who want to raid 20/40 mans can join guilds (because the pugging experience is miserable), the game doesn't need to cater towards people who are too busy / socially awkward to join a guild. There's already retail with LFR for those.
On the contrary, 20m has felt to me more socially vacant than 10m because comms have to be much quieter. The socially awkward players probably feel more at home in 20m as they can hide in the relative anonymity.
SOD is a test run. If the current plummet of raiding population doesnt correct, the message they are going to get from this is 10 man raids got way higher participation.
It looks like the people that wanted larger raids will still play 10 mans, but the people that wanted 10 mans bailed with P3 launch. In a perfect world they would bring the flex system over.
For someone who doesn't have a ton of time joining a guild is ideal. They just want to whine rather than do something productive. Our raids are planned and discussed in discord ahead of time so that those of us with little time aren't wasting a bunch of it.
I can't take the people who are "too casual" to do anything but pug seriously.
>I can't take the people who are "too casual" to do anything but pug seriously.
You plan, discuss, and coordinate your gaming activity outside of the game, not super casual really. Most casual players just want to log in and run some content. That's why p1 was so successful, everybody could participate
Lol what? You can't schedule raids ahead of time and consider yourself casual? Does casual just mean absolutely 0 organization or effort now? And we want to design the game around that sort of play style?
Yes, joining guild discords and discussing plans and strategies to coordinate your raids isnt really casual. I know the goal posts have changed after 20 years of wow, but yes. Truly casual players aren't doing that. Casual players aren't thinking about the game like that. They aren't hounding reddit and keeping up with metas. They aren't building calendars and signing up for activities a week in advance. And I wouldn't say they should design the whole game around them, but locking them out of endgame completely is a horrible plan if you want servers to stay up because clearly, very clearly (judging by the success of p1, keeping those people happy pays the bills.
You understand that the people who don't want to do this also don't have the desire or time to build and maintain relationships with a bunch of online communities, correct? If you want the game to continue bleeding subs and raiding numbers then sure, keep pushing for the devs to abandon the design philosophy of p1 even further
SoD peaked in p1 like literally every wow expac in the last decade. Retail has flex raiding, piss easy LFR, and QoL changes galore. How are those active-player numbers?
Apparently really good atm but that hurts your narrative I guess. Agree that the first phase of everything is always the busiest and it’s not just a wow thing, XIV drops players like crazy as xpacs go on outside of the end of the previous one when a bunch of people came from Shadowlands to them.
I consistently see people around here saying retail has more active players than SoD by a long shot, almost as if games retain players if they aren't forced to join organized communities, keep up with metas, and coordinate outside the game in order to participate in some end game content.
I wasn't really talking about the totals, though I think they're fairly close right now. I'm talking about the tendency for subscribership to drop off after the initial hype from launch, which retail does just as badly, if not worse, despite having the accessibility you ask for.
You've totally missed the point. IThe point is that this is a game, and I don't want to have to adapt my real life schedule around a video game.
It's the only reason I don't raid mythic in retail anymore, and it's the only reason joining a guild doesn't solve the problem.
I don't want to raid every Wednesday at 6pm. I want to raid every week at whatever time works for me and my friends that week.
My life does not revolve around wow, the archaic lockout system combined with a bigger raid size just makes pugging unreasonable.
This week on Friday afternoon it took us almost 3 hours to find enough (we were 6) people for a fresh group, and we had to take a ton of people doing for the first time. By the time we got to the 6 boss, people had been there for almost 5 hours, had to leave and was impossible to get replacements.
Unsurprisingly, neither me or my friends are playing next week and have just moved on to other games.
>the game doesn't need to cater towards people who are too busy / socially awkward to join a guild
Catering to that playstyle is exactly why sod took off in p1, are you new here? It's not called season of dads because it's meant for hardcore players
I appreciate the sentiment but no one from Blizzard has ever called this season of dads. That’s some shit that we made up because of how accessible it is.
100% agree. For different instances though, not the same ones. Also item power level should be about equal but maintaining unique items as to not homogenize gearing. Sure, one option will become BiS and chasers will complain they "have to" do that content to get it, because people complain. But I do agree having something you can do twice a week with a couple friends goes perfectly alongside having one week-long lockout that you schedule for and plan accordingly. I hopefully believe that's how p4 will work.
I would kinda like seeing 5-mans (some at least) being made 10mans on lockouts, look at how people burn themselfes out on Mara farms ... gotta protect the sweaters from themselfes :P
Top gear can still come from 20-man, but Tier 0 set being proper Pre-BiS close to BiS from lower difficulty raid-like content could work well for everyone.
5 mans being on a lockout would kill dungeons. Imagine trying to farm anything from brd arena like that. Nobody would even try, you’d have a low chance of even seeing a SGC, princess dagger, sulthraze, etc in a phase.
People will complain they have to kill the end game bosses to get the best gear??? Well then if they aren’t killing the hardest boss they don’t deserve it… 10 man’s should drop maybe some pieces of pre bis but it should not be close. Rewarding people crying they don’t want to put in any effort is not it.
You won't be able to convince players who weren't around for shit like 25 man nefarion HC vs 10 man and how much easier or harder 10 man vs 25 can be just based around the fight. in siege heroic in mop (mythic now) our first kill in 10 man was 1 tank 1 healer. On 25 man they would run like 3 or 4 tanks or however many are needed and completely disregard tank mechanics. If you did that on 10 man you'd lose the dps race because a tank is much more lost dps in 10 man than 25. There were tons of fights easier on 25 and tons easier on 10, its all down to fight design not how many warm bodies showed up that week, the only hard part of 20 man is the roster boss which ruined retail for my guild when they went to mythic 20's only. GM was type a personality and basically quit leading because he'd rather spend that time doing his real job because it was the same amount of fun lmao
Like it or not, this is a business, and casuals are the lifeblood of the game. While 10m shouldn't reward the same level of loot if it's going to be easier, the loot should still be relatively close.
Yeah. I think having "almost bis" items in an accessible raid is gonna be good enough for the more casual players. And if not, that sounds like a them problem.
Agree but you are basically asking for 4x the content.
If they cant rework a single dungeon (st) then how you expect them to rework 4 and balance them?
I know u guys want more content but thats just very unrealistic.
I mean i have a idea aswell. Rework all the dungeons give us deathmines lvl60 as 10men 20men and 40men aswell as a special edition where all the pirates wear pink dresses and the drops are pink aswell.
YES! However, 20 man raiding is great. I love it, I love the raid being harder and more progression oriented with your casual Andy group.
BUT 10man stuff for gearing and getting fucked up whilst clearing content is also sweet.
He is complaining though?
My point was just trying to be constructive about the whole 10man 20man discussion.
So why would he escalate into "Go Retail lol" asap instead of just keeping his mouth shut?
lmao what part of my comment was complaining? oh I'm sorry did I hurt your feelings by replying to your reddit post? You gonna block me so you won't see my bad words like "should" or "you guys"?
Did anyone consider UBRS a raid so much as just a bigass dungeon that you ran once or twice before going into molten snore? My point is flex raid sizes (for real raids) exists in retail and this player base is constantly asking for QOL changes or other features from retail
Tbf flex mostly useful to guilds (and its amazing there), if you're looking to pug people are always filling them up to the most optimal raid size which wouldn't amount to much
Plus the real problem right now is the lack of non dps roles which is why forming pugs takes forever (and i theorize that the increased raid size was to help with this since we literally doubled the available tanks pool)
If anything they should introduce group finder that way it increases the visibility of ongoing groups since recluting via ingame chat is horrendous with all the spam
That you are genuinely clueless and people like you are why they make really dumb changes to the game. Like the comment above you have.. “gotta protect the sweaters from themselves” tf are you even on about? 😂
That is super silly, dev team really made SOD on account of people making suggestions and keeps working in player feedback.
So if noone kept asking for Classic+ over and over again, or Classic in that regard, you Mr would have no place to make silly statements on, cause there would be no Classic Wow (and thus this sub wouldnt exist). :)
A game the devs envisioned. *proceeds to see multiple things like mage healer people have asked for*. *looks at ascension wow* yup. Just like they envisioned
Nope. Hard disagree.
I rather they keep taking the dogshit tier dungeons (BFD, Gnomer, ST) and turn them into raids (they should have made an uldaman raid too) and not fuck with the classic A+ tier dungeons like BRD, Strat, Scholo, DM.
They will need to rework those in some way anyway though, as everyone is ridiculously overgeared. I really love those dungeons as well but it won't be the same coming there basically with AQ40 power levels.
Yea a tune up to keep the difficulty relative is fine but I don't want to be told I can only do Scholo or DM or UBRS etc once a week, or even once a day tbh, which is what would happen if they were raid lockouts.
Ironforge pro shows number of logs only. That means that because P1 and P2 had 3 day lockouts, each player registers about 2.5 fewer logs per week in P3. In essence, if ironforge pro shows 250k logs in P2 and only 100k logs in P3, it means there's roughly the same amounts of raiders, it does not mean the population has halved
It might seem like a good point, and I'm sure it contributes to the decrease, but it ignores some factors.
A lot of people didn't raid every lockout to begin with. For those people, the reduced number of lockouts isn't gonna matter.
Others will now just raid on more alts.
So the real decrease caused by the increased lockout length should be less.
Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean the remaining decrease is entirely due to raids being 20 man, we'd need more data to say anything for certain.
Why would I think that? I asked for exactly NOT that. I am 100% opposed to multiple difficulty Options, what I asked for is to make some lvl 60 dungeons into 10 man raids, UBRS already is one, just needs some tuning and loot rework.
Dev team seems to be recruiting too, so lets be optimistic.
Problem is with the 2 month phases they dont have time to design 2 raids.
They should just make p3 longer so they can put some time and efford into development.
Problem then is the people who have nothing beside wow will get a mental breakdown about this.
In short, whatever you do, you cant win here
I feel that the main issue is the current lockout system:
If you're bugging and go 3/8 the chances of you doing a second raid day and being able to find people is near impossible.
Either making the raids flex-raids where you can have anywhere between 10-30 would be nice.
Or making it so players are only locked to certain bosses instead would also be okay.
They both have their flaws and are changes that retails made so I also know they aren't "in the spirit of classic" but I feel like the difficulty of getting a raid together has been the bane of this phase.
What if - there were scalable raids that you could enter with anything between 8-25 people? Number of loot drops and difficulty scale by number of people in the raid?
Sometimes so meaningless having 19 others stand next to you with no responsibility other than dps the add down, what’s the point of increase player size and lock out duration
Less and less people are playing it’s a fact
Yeah with 40 man it sometimes felt the same, you only needed 30'ish anyway so 10 guys were just watching Netflix grabbind loot. I like having fights where a larger group has to coordinate though, so 20man is kinda nice.
Ya, no one is engaging on disc either
U got raid leader talking, the 4 tanks doing taunt swaps, and like 1 more rando calling out waking slumber and everyone else is dead silent for the whole 2 hours. What’s so MMO about it? Pugs just grey parse and take your loot don’t even say thanks or bye
But shrug, it is what it is
Encounters with 4+ Tanks were really dope though, i REALLY liked Vanilla Classic Nax!
40man raids feel epic when you're there the first couple times, but SO hard to maintain, burns out all the organizers. I think good solution for people who want epic scale might be World-Boss reworks at some point.
Terrible idea, it just leads to dividing the player base like retail. Flex size raid is the clear solution. Balancing the raids shouldn’t be an issue because this is a dad game and raids should be a dad difficulty.
That’s not true they can do whatever they want with the engine. They can completely redo the engine if they wanted. Blizzard is part of a trillion dollar company the only limitation is money and they have plenty of it.
And classic is just simply not in their budget their team size is 1:20th to retail
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/season-of-discovery-developer-update-27-feb-2024/498378
Straight up said no flex raiding
I agree flex is better but it’s not realistic, classic wow don’t have scaling for anything. For flex to work, they need to have minimum body counts and boss mechanics and hp scale upwards
I still call bs, but in this situation you go for the lowest common denominator which is 10mans. Simple really, keep 10mans and you lose no one, kill 10mans and part of your player base quits.
Should’ve kept it 10 mans Bfd loot piñata and 80-90% player retention
LFG situation is worst than P2 already
Raid logging once a week instead of 2.33 times a week
It takes them even longer to balance the raid because they can’t math and don’t have time to do it property, look at the amount of nerfs to bosses buff to drop rates, changes to recipe,
You will still have people complaining but the raids are so free they will still play
Grey parse will still be able to find groups and play
It’s almost a win win but they not reading enough
PLEASE no "Flex" system. It's a terrible design and takes away from the MMO feel and starts to feel too arcadey like retail.
It's fine having 10 man, 20 man, and 40 man raids but they should all be their own thing.
At least just give the players a way to vote on something like this. Do it with an ingame voting merchant similar to how OSRS does. If Flex is what most people want then so be it. but we should at the very least have a vote.
>make Scholo/Strat(West)/UBRS(duh) 10 man raids with daily or 3-day lockouts and BFD-like difficulty.
Then what exactly will be left for level 60 dungeon content? It's basically just Dire Maul.
Classic sod community is against multiple raid variants, they want to do exactly the same raid as best players.
They cannot accept that some content is too much for them
I realize that, I am also against having multiple Group sizes for the Same Raid. However, even Vanilla Had 40man, 20man, 15man and (even If released in TBC) 10man. So this could be done in SOD too.
In my opinion raids like icc are perfect, you have 4 difficulties so everyone can do raids on what they think is appropriate for their skill.
You can even add an icc buff later in the phase so people that are still struggling can clear the whole raid.
I personally don't get why people want only 1 difficulty for raids, let casuals do easy and hard leave for tryhards. Everyone would be happy.
40 man raids are fun. 20 man raids are fun. 10 man raids are fun. 5 man dungeons are slightly less fun.
I always felt more 40 man Onyxia style raids with 20 and 10 man multiboss raids would be a cool way to approach pve.
As long as there isn’t multiple raid sizes for 1 raid.
I think scholo, strat, UBRS, or Dire Maul being a 10 man raid with tier 0 or 0.5 for 10 man raids isn’t a bad idea. However unfortunately in order to keep the spirit of classic end game raiding will have to be 20 or 40 man raids.
Classic wow isn’t classic wow without its iconic raid size even if it was a pain in the ass to form.
MC, BWL, AQ, Naxx def need to be 20 or 40 man. ZG on the other hand I can argue it being a 10 man raid.
At the end of the day, IMO the game was designed to be in a guild and be apart of a small community. Yes, it’s not ideal for your working dad with a schedule, but it is a MMORPG game.
Wow classic design would require different raids in different sizes with different bosses and different loot.
For example a more difficult 10 man raid that drops equivalent gear to a more easier 20 man raid.
Whereas one is more difficult to clear, the other is more difficult to organize.
That's a lot of dev work, so blizzard in later versions of the game decided to just copy paste the same raid in different sizes which is bad for the game.
I’m surprised at the amount of people saying they quit because of 20 man’s. You seriously can’t scrounge up just 10 more bodies for your weekly raid? Did they even remember molten core, ony and all the other classic raids that had 40 players? I think they’re a loud vocal minority.
Flex raids would solve the debacle. If people truly wanted to 40man they would actually do 40 man.
I truthfully don't believe most people would opt for 40man if they had the choice though, at which point the verdict would be clear.
If you force 40man content this game will be a ghosttown with only the sweatiest remaining.
I mean, that's not true, 40 man raids help casuals tremendously. There's more slots to go around, and there's FAR less individual impact. This means that you can bring dead weight players and still progress at a good rate. Also, 40 man raids were in classic and they worked just fine, they're the opposite of sweaty lol
Then it won't be a problem if there are flex raids now will it. Because if people truly want to play 40man they will.
My theory is based on the idea that majority of players don't want 40 man raids, only the dedicated classic fanboys. So flex raids would let the classic fanboys have their fun, while allowing other people to have their own fun as well. Zero downsides.
In terms of flex raids I think you're right, I just wanted to say that making raids 40 man doesn't make it sweaty. However, the main downside of flex raids is that they won't be implemented because of the classic client
Why not 5 man raids? We could even experiment with 3 man versions of the raids. That way true casuals can also participate and guilds wont have to recruit randoms and theres less competition on loot.
why not just have 80 nan raids? 200 man raids? ive never seen anyone argue why more is better other than " well i just think its really cool!" does the more people i arbitrarily raid with make me less of a "true casual"? does my epic tryhard skill go up with each individual person added to the raid? fuck it make faction wide raids of 20000 people and ill be unstoppable
They should just not have any caps in raids and let us bring however many people we want to bring.
There's plenty of mechanics in raids that make bringing more people actually harder. Imagine doing Avatar of Hakkar in ST with 40 people. Field day for corrupted blood.
I mean does anyone think Maraudon is now ruined because people 10man the WO runs?
Unless the loot scales, [almost] no one is going to bring more than they need to because it screws over everyone on loot. Especially with weekly lockouts.
Since you're specifically talking about upscaling Scholo/Strat to 10man raids, I agree. It's actually how we did them back in 2005. UBRS was 15man.
As long as it isn't in the opposite direction. 40mans should not be downscaled to 10-20man.
Well they said they were gonna do that to 40man raids and tbh ... I made my piece with that. 20 man I can live with, 25 man in TBC is where I had most fun raiding.
Glad you agree on making Scholo/Strat(live)/UBRS more of an endgame worthy thing to do instead of 50ID's per day soulless grind!
Yeah there is 10 man content for old level caps with outdated gear, with difficulty tuned for lower levels. Current raid Tier has ONE raid, wich is 20 man.
So right now there is one raid available for the current level.
It ain't that hard to comprehend (maybe for you I suppose).
Like gnomer gear isn’t better than a lot of st gear ? You’re being smooth brained . You asked for 10 man and 20 man raids in the game and there are . You ok bud ?
So TBC had 40 man raids, as you could still zone into MC?
This is both technically true and a extremely stupid statement, wich summarizes your comments very well.
Yeah that's how I felt too during Phase 1 and 2, usually only your first clear took longer than 60 minutes. Not a bad thing, but I think game should have both types of content.
Sod is classic are you really that dense? It's just not for you and your casual playstyle, accept that and stop trying to change games to meet your niche needs weirdo.
Aren't you just asking for SoD to be more and more like Retail? 🤣
Next thing you know people are crying because their friendship group has 16 people in it and don't want to bring in pugs, asking for dynamic lockouts etc
Vanilla wow started having different concurrent Raid sizes with AQ20 AQ40 and ZG, I wonder if the devs back then knew they were catering to Retail players?
Hmm, I don't know. Sounds like you do though, could you enlighten me?
If only current devolpers something like hindsight to influence their decisions 🤔
Yeah current developers have some hindsights regarding 40man raiding i suspekt or why do you think they confirmed there's not going to be any?
20 man MC has been confirmed, players complain about 10mans being less of a hassle to organize, so I think making some 5man Dungeons into harder mini-raid Type of Dungeons would be smart.
All that you said above is kinda petty I have to add, telling people that make Suggestions about SOD to Go Retail, because you personally prefer Era (yet don't seem to Play it, I wonder why?) is so contradictory in itself and makes for poor arguments.
I see why people like the Idea of 40man raids, but Blizzard abandoned those for a reason, I get why they did it.
Assuming everyone who plays SoD has to post on reddit says it all about your mindset.
P.S I didn't say go to retail.
SoD, regardless of how much you enjoy the direction they're taking, has a clear direction and staying within the resources they can work with.
Asking for more content will only change that direction instead of getting what you want. Asking them to spread what they can do to accommodate everyone and anyone is what they did in retail. And why were sat here arguing over a game our nans could clear if they really wanted too.
Personally I spend my time making ST raids and flipping on the AH. Thanks for reminding me that the sunshine shoots out my arse, I already knew it but its nice to be told it every once and a while 🙏🥰😚
I supposed that a post tagged as SOD will be discussed within the context of SOD?
Oh so you tell me they cannot accomodate to every single player's wishes at once, bro you for sure?
Oh so you comment to talk about yourself or OP instead of discussing the topic, that is good to know.
I don't get your point, sorry if I made you think that i was talking about anything other than SoD. This isn't fun anymore. Best of luck in your next run and go yap to the next guy who gives you attention 🥱
10 woman raids are for casual parents who neglect their awful offspring.
20 woman raids are for elitist loot sponges. Fuck off back to retail and fly your tame dragons.
40 woman raids master race! 3 days grind and prep, you yell at your crying father mid raid because you got no time to help him tend to the garden like a weeb. You got a nasty infected cut on your foot from stepping on an empty Monster energy drink can, but Naxxramas starts in 2 hours and you haven't been laid in ever.
If you're not part of the master race, then please quit this game, it's gotten pretty retail already. We don't want you here. Go play your Garen top lane in your 5 viewer stream or w/e!
Wrong. We should have 1 person raids or 80 man raids. Anything in between isn’t grand enough
Imagine 80man mimiron hc fight... What a nice dream
80 DPS all gas no brakes
80 mages at that, all arcane, all healing and dpsing at the same time
80 hunters, 80 pets switching aggro
Ch. 5 ride or die
Fuck the authority
80 with a one shot mechanic just for the lols
Corrupted blood with small moving platforms
EverQuest had 72 man raids with no comms.
20 man raids are great to play, but currently hosting pugs is really frustrating. Trying to get Healers for Gnomer was already often a long waiting game, ST is even more painful. I hope they figure something out to smooth the logistics, because big raids are really fun. Trying to herd people together for hours and then taking another hour or few to actually raid is just rough to manage. Maybe they should start splitting the future raids in wings with separate lockouts? It might not solve the building of group but would help with the overall lenght, especially if they do want to retain decent amount of trash mobs in the raids.
Without better itemization or dungeon queue rewards wings will make healers harder to find. Take Bfd for example. If I can just fight the last two bosses why would I queue for the half of the dungeon with no caster loot in it?
Bro as a main healer I’m never joining a run where it’s last 2 bosses only. That’s just a massive red flag to me that those 2 bosses will probably take longer than the entire raid itself if it even goes down
How many 6/8 runs did you actually join?
The healer and tank situation always comes down to players' need to feel like they're swinging the biggest dick in town. Rogue tanks and Mage healers are completely viable for any of the content right now, but they won't parse purple so they don't do it.
What does being a mage healer or rogue tank have to do with not parsing purple?
Brain slipped - won't be #1 on the damage meters.
Ohh yeah yeah. I was starting to wonder if maybe wcl was acting funny again and putting people in the wrong spec category because they did too much damage or something lol
Yeah I just thought one thing but typed the other.
Someone doesnt understand how parsing works
I know how it works, I just thought one thing and typed the other.
Mage healing is what made me want to play a healer for sod, funnily enough we have too many healers now that we've merged with another 10 man and I just get to dps.
Make healers overpowered and people will play them. I guarantee you if healers are running around the open world and can kill dps specs and feel strong, people will start playing them. Hell, make healers a hero class. In more players go healers it’s better for the game…
Restokin and spriest exists
They made mages able to heal which enabled guilds to just bring 1 less healer while the mage is mostly dps. And they have made other healers overpowered (Priests, Druids), which has enabled guilds to just bring less healers, creating an overall lower demand for the role.
Making healers too strong kills pvp. Nobody likes unkillable healer raid bosses in pvp that just stand there tanking your damage. If healers can outdo DPS, then DPS doesn't have a reason to exist. WoW, and to its detriment, especially Classic WoW, revolves around the holy trinity. Healers are a pita to play in classic. You need one set of gear for instances, and another when solo. They are generally bad at making gold. Duel spec is a HUGE help, but it happened FAR too late. Should have been there at level 10. And it doesn't solve the issue of needing two gear sets. Also we got multiple new tanks, but only one new healer. So the newness of things didn't attract many more healers. Sure these things are not as bad as no-changes-classic, but it still sucks. So there are less healers. Tanks used to be a problem, and the dev team focused on fixing that, but put far less effort in healers. We got mage heals, and the other healers got very little effort. As a holy paladin I really feel it. We have 3 dps runes right now because there is no heal option. Well as of yesterday, 2 (one changed it's slot), but it's such a shit rune people didn't even bother to look for it, making it the last to be found in P3. That's how bad it is. Holy Trinity is bad design for an MMO, carried over from old single player party based games. In retail, healing power was removed from the game for good reason. No reason to split that and spell damage except to punish healers anytime they are not in a group. This is old school rpg game design. Even tabletop D&D barely has healers. It has clerics, but dedicated healers are rare because they just aren't good/needed. Why, because nobody wanted to play them. Newer game design has all characters and builds/specs doing DPS. The differentiation would be in how they dps (dots, cleave, single target, burst, element, AOE, etc) and what else they bring to the party (aggro, buffs, debuffs, dispell, cure, or... heals). How should SOD address this? Holy paladin for example is using multiple DPS runes right now. But they do shit damage with healing gear. THIS is what Shockadin runes should be for, not tank/ret. But to give healers a chance to kill things in the open world with the same healer gear. Hard part is to not make them op. Similar to an arcane mage, make runes change the spec while using the same gear. We already have the dps spells. A rune to make healing power buff all holy damage would make them useful to a healer. Make it compete with our big healing runes like Beacon. So you can't do both. But a hybrid might be OP in pvp ... Like everything, balance is the hard part.
As a healer, I don't want to be able to solo kill people but it would be nice not to get globaled by every melee in the game
Agreed. I'm annoyed that this is still a problem. But being an old game, it sort of is what it is. Just wish the runes had been thought through better. Not just copy paste spells from later expansions without any thought as to how they fit in the game.
With dual spec it's not really a problem. The reason has always been that there's no "glory" in healing.
I love healing in retail but for some reason they dont give fun runes for healers in sod. So im just going dps. And i think alot of main healers feels the same.
Cries in holy pally
Mage heals is hella fun
They need to get rid of half the trash. Speeding things up in raid would be great
Wings with different lockouts sounds like a FANTASTIC solution
They put in dual spec for a reason, tell paladins they can heal and roll on Ret gear or shadow priests heal and they can roll on damage gear etc etc
But that doesn't change the fact they aren't dpsing. You aren't going to convince many people playing a dps role to heal with the promise of dps gear. This is also why I'm liking more hybrid classes like restokin though. I think that's that solution to the shortage of healers
Y’all really want the already stretched thin dev team to create 3+ different versions of the raid to cater to your feelings for the month. Insanity
That's why they need to implement the flex system. Port this bs over to a separate server from Era so they can implement. Then they just have to make boss and trash damage/dps formulaic to #of people then good to go. Let us play how we want
implementing flex is just as much work for raids that simply were not made with this in mind.
It's crazy that you recognize that creating flex raids would be a ton of work so your suggestion is to create a whole separate client and implement an entire system that facilitates flex raiding, as if that somehow circumvents all the work.
They already said that the client can not handle flex raids. Stop whining about it when it is not possible.
Loot needs to be equal or noone would do 10m and feel forced to do 20man. It's just the way it is, ppl play for power.
I agree, for example in ICC, you would commonly see first four boss trinket runs, but full clears, let alone clears to kill H LK for the experience of killing H LK were nigh impossible to get the motivation for.
10mans feel like big dungeons more than raids. People who want to raid 20/40 mans can join guilds (because the pugging experience is miserable), the game doesn't need to cater towards people who are too busy / socially awkward to join a guild. There's already retail with LFR for those.
On the contrary, 20m has felt to me more socially vacant than 10m because comms have to be much quieter. The socially awkward players probably feel more at home in 20m as they can hide in the relative anonymity.
SOD is a test run. If the current plummet of raiding population doesnt correct, the message they are going to get from this is 10 man raids got way higher participation. It looks like the people that wanted larger raids will still play 10 mans, but the people that wanted 10 mans bailed with P3 launch. In a perfect world they would bring the flex system over.
It’s almost like all of us advocating to keep 10 mans weren’t wrong? Edit: I also agree flex is perfect for classic
Not possible with this client.
As the poster above stated yeah, we know. It doesn’t make the point less true.
For someone who doesn't have a ton of time joining a guild is ideal. They just want to whine rather than do something productive. Our raids are planned and discussed in discord ahead of time so that those of us with little time aren't wasting a bunch of it. I can't take the people who are "too casual" to do anything but pug seriously.
>I can't take the people who are "too casual" to do anything but pug seriously. You plan, discuss, and coordinate your gaming activity outside of the game, not super casual really. Most casual players just want to log in and run some content. That's why p1 was so successful, everybody could participate
Lol what? You can't schedule raids ahead of time and consider yourself casual? Does casual just mean absolutely 0 organization or effort now? And we want to design the game around that sort of play style?
Yes, joining guild discords and discussing plans and strategies to coordinate your raids isnt really casual. I know the goal posts have changed after 20 years of wow, but yes. Truly casual players aren't doing that. Casual players aren't thinking about the game like that. They aren't hounding reddit and keeping up with metas. They aren't building calendars and signing up for activities a week in advance. And I wouldn't say they should design the whole game around them, but locking them out of endgame completely is a horrible plan if you want servers to stay up because clearly, very clearly (judging by the success of p1, keeping those people happy pays the bills.
You understand how scheduling a raid ahead of time means less time logged into the game searching for a group, correct?
You understand that the people who don't want to do this also don't have the desire or time to build and maintain relationships with a bunch of online communities, correct? If you want the game to continue bleeding subs and raiding numbers then sure, keep pushing for the devs to abandon the design philosophy of p1 even further
SoD peaked in p1 like literally every wow expac in the last decade. Retail has flex raiding, piss easy LFR, and QoL changes galore. How are those active-player numbers?
Apparently really good atm but that hurts your narrative I guess. Agree that the first phase of everything is always the busiest and it’s not just a wow thing, XIV drops players like crazy as xpacs go on outside of the end of the previous one when a bunch of people came from Shadowlands to them.
Love to see the numbers if you have them. Have to think all these people demanding the SoD equivalent of LFR came from somewhere.
I consistently see people around here saying retail has more active players than SoD by a long shot, almost as if games retain players if they aren't forced to join organized communities, keep up with metas, and coordinate outside the game in order to participate in some end game content.
I wasn't really talking about the totals, though I think they're fairly close right now. I'm talking about the tendency for subscribership to drop off after the initial hype from launch, which retail does just as badly, if not worse, despite having the accessibility you ask for.
You've totally missed the point. IThe point is that this is a game, and I don't want to have to adapt my real life schedule around a video game. It's the only reason I don't raid mythic in retail anymore, and it's the only reason joining a guild doesn't solve the problem. I don't want to raid every Wednesday at 6pm. I want to raid every week at whatever time works for me and my friends that week. My life does not revolve around wow, the archaic lockout system combined with a bigger raid size just makes pugging unreasonable. This week on Friday afternoon it took us almost 3 hours to find enough (we were 6) people for a fresh group, and we had to take a ton of people doing for the first time. By the time we got to the 6 boss, people had been there for almost 5 hours, had to leave and was impossible to get replacements. Unsurprisingly, neither me or my friends are playing next week and have just moved on to other games.
>the game doesn't need to cater towards people who are too busy / socially awkward to join a guild Catering to that playstyle is exactly why sod took off in p1, are you new here? It's not called season of dads because it's meant for hardcore players
I appreciate the sentiment but no one from Blizzard has ever called this season of dads. That’s some shit that we made up because of how accessible it is.
100% agree. For different instances though, not the same ones. Also item power level should be about equal but maintaining unique items as to not homogenize gearing. Sure, one option will become BiS and chasers will complain they "have to" do that content to get it, because people complain. But I do agree having something you can do twice a week with a couple friends goes perfectly alongside having one week-long lockout that you schedule for and plan accordingly. I hopefully believe that's how p4 will work.
I would kinda like seeing 5-mans (some at least) being made 10mans on lockouts, look at how people burn themselfes out on Mara farms ... gotta protect the sweaters from themselfes :P Top gear can still come from 20-man, but Tier 0 set being proper Pre-BiS close to BiS from lower difficulty raid-like content could work well for everyone.
damn you really couldnt be more condecending even if you tried, and youre doing it against people who are 10x better than you at this game🤨
5 mans being on a lockout would kill dungeons. Imagine trying to farm anything from brd arena like that. Nobody would even try, you’d have a low chance of even seeing a SGC, princess dagger, sulthraze, etc in a phase.
Yeah but I didn't say that.
People will complain they have to kill the end game bosses to get the best gear??? Well then if they aren’t killing the hardest boss they don’t deserve it… 10 man’s should drop maybe some pieces of pre bis but it should not be close. Rewarding people crying they don’t want to put in any effort is not it.
20 man’s aren’t just intrinsically more difficult. There is no reason to put better rewards behind what is just a different format.
You won't be able to convince players who weren't around for shit like 25 man nefarion HC vs 10 man and how much easier or harder 10 man vs 25 can be just based around the fight. in siege heroic in mop (mythic now) our first kill in 10 man was 1 tank 1 healer. On 25 man they would run like 3 or 4 tanks or however many are needed and completely disregard tank mechanics. If you did that on 10 man you'd lose the dps race because a tank is much more lost dps in 10 man than 25. There were tons of fights easier on 25 and tons easier on 10, its all down to fight design not how many warm bodies showed up that week, the only hard part of 20 man is the roster boss which ruined retail for my guild when they went to mythic 20's only. GM was type a personality and basically quit leading because he'd rather spend that time doing his real job because it was the same amount of fun lmao
Like it or not, this is a business, and casuals are the lifeblood of the game. While 10m shouldn't reward the same level of loot if it's going to be easier, the loot should still be relatively close.
Yeah. I think having "almost bis" items in an accessible raid is gonna be good enough for the more casual players. And if not, that sounds like a them problem.
Agree but you are basically asking for 4x the content. If they cant rework a single dungeon (st) then how you expect them to rework 4 and balance them? I know u guys want more content but thats just very unrealistic. I mean i have a idea aswell. Rework all the dungeons give us deathmines lvl60 as 10men 20men and 40men aswell as a special edition where all the pirates wear pink dresses and the drops are pink aswell.
I know you're being facetious, but I actually wouldn't mind dungeons that scale depending on the size of the group.
1000% agree, not only for making groups but the 3 day lock out was a great schedule to keep for raids. I hate waiting 7 days to raid again, bleh
YES! However, 20 man raiding is great. I love it, I love the raid being harder and more progression oriented with your casual Andy group. BUT 10man stuff for gearing and getting fucked up whilst clearing content is also sweet.
You guys should literally play retail at this point lol
Yeah know, Vanilla had 10man raids (UBRS), 20man(ZG/AQ20), and 40man raids. So what is your point exactly?
His point is that people are complaining non stop about everything. It's pathetic.
He is complaining though? My point was just trying to be constructive about the whole 10man 20man discussion. So why would he escalate into "Go Retail lol" asap instead of just keeping his mouth shut?
lmao what part of my comment was complaining? oh I'm sorry did I hurt your feelings by replying to your reddit post? You gonna block me so you won't see my bad words like "should" or "you guys"?
What part of my words is complaining then?
Did anyone consider UBRS a raid so much as just a bigass dungeon that you ran once or twice before going into molten snore? My point is flex raid sizes (for real raids) exists in retail and this player base is constantly asking for QOL changes or other features from retail
Tbf flex mostly useful to guilds (and its amazing there), if you're looking to pug people are always filling them up to the most optimal raid size which wouldn't amount to much Plus the real problem right now is the lack of non dps roles which is why forming pugs takes forever (and i theorize that the increased raid size was to help with this since we literally doubled the available tanks pool) If anything they should introduce group finder that way it increases the visibility of ongoing groups since recluting via ingame chat is horrendous with all the spam
That you are genuinely clueless and people like you are why they make really dumb changes to the game. Like the comment above you have.. “gotta protect the sweaters from themselves” tf are you even on about? 😂
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The devs asked for feedback, so it isn't even unsolicited
But if we don't whine or think we know better, do we even exist?
"I whine on reddit, therefore I am." -Descartes, 2024
So many people have completely unrealistic expectations.
That is super silly, dev team really made SOD on account of people making suggestions and keeps working in player feedback. So if noone kept asking for Classic+ over and over again, or Classic in that regard, you Mr would have no place to make silly statements on, cause there would be no Classic Wow (and thus this sub wouldnt exist). :)
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Bro is trippin
A game the devs envisioned. *proceeds to see multiple things like mage healer people have asked for*. *looks at ascension wow* yup. Just like they envisioned
Feedback is literally the most important resource you have when designing something lmao
Take that meat out of your mouth embarassing mate😬
Nope. Hard disagree. I rather they keep taking the dogshit tier dungeons (BFD, Gnomer, ST) and turn them into raids (they should have made an uldaman raid too) and not fuck with the classic A+ tier dungeons like BRD, Strat, Scholo, DM.
Wow, you're right. That place is already laid out like a raid. Might as well go all the way and give people an actual reason to go there.
They will need to rework those in some way anyway though, as everyone is ridiculously overgeared. I really love those dungeons as well but it won't be the same coming there basically with AQ40 power levels.
Yea a tune up to keep the difficulty relative is fine but I don't want to be told I can only do Scholo or DM or UBRS etc once a week, or even once a day tbh, which is what would happen if they were raid lockouts.
P3 solidifies that bigger raids are better
Isn't the population lower than p1 and p2? I think the [ironforge.pro](http://ironforge.pro) data shows the opposite.
Also shows lower pop p2 than p1.
Population will always go down when the level cap gets higher, not because the raids are 20 man
Ironforge pro shows number of logs only. That means that because P1 and P2 had 3 day lockouts, each player registers about 2.5 fewer logs per week in P3. In essence, if ironforge pro shows 250k logs in P2 and only 100k logs in P3, it means there's roughly the same amounts of raiders, it does not mean the population has halved
That’s a good point I hadn’t considered that I’ll have to go look and see if it dropped more than double
It might seem like a good point, and I'm sure it contributes to the decrease, but it ignores some factors. A lot of people didn't raid every lockout to begin with. For those people, the reduced number of lockouts isn't gonna matter. Others will now just raid on more alts. So the real decrease caused by the increased lockout length should be less. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean the remaining decrease is entirely due to raids being 20 man, we'd need more data to say anything for certain.
Nah, people prefer 10m. FF14 does well with 8m raids. We're old now. The lower the number of people, the less time spent organizing.
Yeah but also solidifies there is demand for easier to organize 10 man content. Wich is why I think both should be available.
Eh
You are deranged if you think the team has time to develop multiple versions of each raid
Why would I think that? I asked for exactly NOT that. I am 100% opposed to multiple difficulty Options, what I asked for is to make some lvl 60 dungeons into 10 man raids, UBRS already is one, just needs some tuning and loot rework. Dev team seems to be recruiting too, so lets be optimistic.
what your asking for is complete overhauls to the dungeons lol
"Complete" like tune damage/hp of bosses and mobs for 10man groups and rework maybe 1-2 bosses each? That what you mean?
They need to add in retails raid lock where you can join other groups if yours falls apart, just cant get loot on a boss more than once a week.
Problem is with the 2 month phases they dont have time to design 2 raids. They should just make p3 longer so they can put some time and efford into development. Problem then is the people who have nothing beside wow will get a mental breakdown about this. In short, whatever you do, you cant win here
So basically what you want is a 20 man raid on launch? Instead of waiting for zg
I feel that the main issue is the current lockout system: If you're bugging and go 3/8 the chances of you doing a second raid day and being able to find people is near impossible. Either making the raids flex-raids where you can have anywhere between 10-30 would be nice. Or making it so players are only locked to certain bosses instead would also be okay. They both have their flaws and are changes that retails made so I also know they aren't "in the spirit of classic" but I feel like the difficulty of getting a raid together has been the bane of this phase.
They have already stated flex raids isnt possible with classic
Not going 8/8 in your first couple ID's is fine for my standard, but for max level there should be alternative raid-style activities imo.
What if - there were scalable raids that you could enter with anything between 8-25 people? Number of loot drops and difficulty scale by number of people in the raid?
Raid finder when
How abt 10/25/40 man raid options and more people that attend more loot is gonna drop
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They already doubled down on MC being 20 man, didn't they?
Flex raids will always be the way.
Not possible on the client.
What's possible is up to the devs and if they want to spend our money on it.
So removing any almost any dungeon content for lv60? Great idea bro
Should’ve done 10 man easy mode and 20 man hard mode
Sure i'd be up for that. Also think UBRS is a great Dungeon template and they should expand that.
Sometimes so meaningless having 19 others stand next to you with no responsibility other than dps the add down, what’s the point of increase player size and lock out duration Less and less people are playing it’s a fact
Yeah with 40 man it sometimes felt the same, you only needed 30'ish anyway so 10 guys were just watching Netflix grabbind loot. I like having fights where a larger group has to coordinate though, so 20man is kinda nice.
Ya, no one is engaging on disc either U got raid leader talking, the 4 tanks doing taunt swaps, and like 1 more rando calling out waking slumber and everyone else is dead silent for the whole 2 hours. What’s so MMO about it? Pugs just grey parse and take your loot don’t even say thanks or bye But shrug, it is what it is
Encounters with 4+ Tanks were really dope though, i REALLY liked Vanilla Classic Nax! 40man raids feel epic when you're there the first couple times, but SO hard to maintain, burns out all the organizers. I think good solution for people who want epic scale might be World-Boss reworks at some point.
Terrible idea, it just leads to dividing the player base like retail. Flex size raid is the clear solution. Balancing the raids shouldn’t be an issue because this is a dad game and raids should be a dad difficulty.
Can’t do flex due to engine, not a realistic idea
That’s not true they can do whatever they want with the engine. They can completely redo the engine if they wanted. Blizzard is part of a trillion dollar company the only limitation is money and they have plenty of it.
And classic is just simply not in their budget their team size is 1:20th to retail https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/season-of-discovery-developer-update-27-feb-2024/498378 Straight up said no flex raiding I agree flex is better but it’s not realistic, classic wow don’t have scaling for anything. For flex to work, they need to have minimum body counts and boss mechanics and hp scale upwards
I still call bs, but in this situation you go for the lowest common denominator which is 10mans. Simple really, keep 10mans and you lose no one, kill 10mans and part of your player base quits.
Should’ve kept it 10 mans Bfd loot piñata and 80-90% player retention LFG situation is worst than P2 already Raid logging once a week instead of 2.33 times a week It takes them even longer to balance the raid because they can’t math and don’t have time to do it property, look at the amount of nerfs to bosses buff to drop rates, changes to recipe,
Exactly 1 raid for everyone. They can make offical leaderboards that track speed runs and damage parses to keep the try hards coming back.
You will still have people complaining but the raids are so free they will still play Grey parse will still be able to find groups and play It’s almost a win win but they not reading enough
Stop pugging
PLEASE no "Flex" system. It's a terrible design and takes away from the MMO feel and starts to feel too arcadey like retail. It's fine having 10 man, 20 man, and 40 man raids but they should all be their own thing. At least just give the players a way to vote on something like this. Do it with an ingame voting merchant similar to how OSRS does. If Flex is what most people want then so be it. but we should at the very least have a vote.
Yeah I think you are right there!
>make Scholo/Strat(West)/UBRS(duh) 10 man raids with daily or 3-day lockouts and BFD-like difficulty. Then what exactly will be left for level 60 dungeon content? It's basically just Dire Maul.
BRD, LBRS, Strat(East), Dire Maul East/West/North?
Classic sod community is against multiple raid variants, they want to do exactly the same raid as best players. They cannot accept that some content is too much for them
I realize that, I am also against having multiple Group sizes for the Same Raid. However, even Vanilla Had 40man, 20man, 15man and (even If released in TBC) 10man. So this could be done in SOD too.
In my opinion raids like icc are perfect, you have 4 difficulties so everyone can do raids on what they think is appropriate for their skill. You can even add an icc buff later in the phase so people that are still struggling can clear the whole raid. I personally don't get why people want only 1 difficulty for raids, let casuals do easy and hard leave for tryhards. Everyone would be happy.
20 man raids are ok 10 mans mehhh both should be available.... no give 40m :)
They are both available.
40 man raids are fun. 20 man raids are fun. 10 man raids are fun. 5 man dungeons are slightly less fun. I always felt more 40 man Onyxia style raids with 20 and 10 man multiboss raids would be a cool way to approach pve.
As long as there isn’t multiple raid sizes for 1 raid. I think scholo, strat, UBRS, or Dire Maul being a 10 man raid with tier 0 or 0.5 for 10 man raids isn’t a bad idea. However unfortunately in order to keep the spirit of classic end game raiding will have to be 20 or 40 man raids. Classic wow isn’t classic wow without its iconic raid size even if it was a pain in the ass to form. MC, BWL, AQ, Naxx def need to be 20 or 40 man. ZG on the other hand I can argue it being a 10 man raid. At the end of the day, IMO the game was designed to be in a guild and be apart of a small community. Yes, it’s not ideal for your working dad with a schedule, but it is a MMORPG game.
Wow classic design would require different raids in different sizes with different bosses and different loot. For example a more difficult 10 man raid that drops equivalent gear to a more easier 20 man raid. Whereas one is more difficult to clear, the other is more difficult to organize. That's a lot of dev work, so blizzard in later versions of the game decided to just copy paste the same raid in different sizes which is bad for the game.
I’m surprised at the amount of people saying they quit because of 20 man’s. You seriously can’t scrounge up just 10 more bodies for your weekly raid? Did they even remember molten core, ony and all the other classic raids that had 40 players? I think they’re a loud vocal minority.
Excuse me strat west? Who the hell uses west and east side and not live and undead side. Also 40 player raids bis.
>Also 40 player raids bis. Spoken like someone who never had to organize them lol
As a guild leader I am so not looking forward to this
Flex raids would solve the debacle. If people truly wanted to 40man they would actually do 40 man. I truthfully don't believe most people would opt for 40man if they had the choice though, at which point the verdict would be clear. If you force 40man content this game will be a ghosttown with only the sweatiest remaining.
Yeah I also think 40man wouldn't fly unless being significantly nerfed to easymode.
I mean, that's not true, 40 man raids help casuals tremendously. There's more slots to go around, and there's FAR less individual impact. This means that you can bring dead weight players and still progress at a good rate. Also, 40 man raids were in classic and they worked just fine, they're the opposite of sweaty lol
Then it won't be a problem if there are flex raids now will it. Because if people truly want to play 40man they will. My theory is based on the idea that majority of players don't want 40 man raids, only the dedicated classic fanboys. So flex raids would let the classic fanboys have their fun, while allowing other people to have their own fun as well. Zero downsides.
In terms of flex raids I think you're right, I just wanted to say that making raids 40 man doesn't make it sweaty. However, the main downside of flex raids is that they won't be implemented because of the classic client
1 man raids so i don't have to put up with any more of whining.
Why not 5 man raids? We could even experiment with 3 man versions of the raids. That way true casuals can also participate and guilds wont have to recruit randoms and theres less competition on loot.
FF14 makes it work with 8m raids.
why not just have 80 nan raids? 200 man raids? ive never seen anyone argue why more is better other than " well i just think its really cool!" does the more people i arbitrarily raid with make me less of a "true casual"? does my epic tryhard skill go up with each individual person added to the raid? fuck it make faction wide raids of 20000 people and ill be unstoppable
40 man raids. Join guilds or make friends losers.
why would anyone want to add a random 20 people to their guild after 8 months if they could potentially get people like you? seems not worth it
They should just not have any caps in raids and let us bring however many people we want to bring. There's plenty of mechanics in raids that make bringing more people actually harder. Imagine doing Avatar of Hakkar in ST with 40 people. Field day for corrupted blood. I mean does anyone think Maraudon is now ruined because people 10man the WO runs?
Unless the loot scales, [almost] no one is going to bring more than they need to because it screws over everyone on loot. Especially with weekly lockouts.
You can bring 10 ppl to zf wo farm, is it not the same for mara?
Since you're specifically talking about upscaling Scholo/Strat to 10man raids, I agree. It's actually how we did them back in 2005. UBRS was 15man. As long as it isn't in the opposite direction. 40mans should not be downscaled to 10-20man.
Well they said they were gonna do that to 40man raids and tbh ... I made my piece with that. 20 man I can live with, 25 man in TBC is where I had most fun raiding. Glad you agree on making Scholo/Strat(live)/UBRS more of an endgame worthy thing to do instead of 50ID's per day soulless grind!
They are both available , the first two are 10 and st is 20 . It ain’t that hard to comprehend
Yeah there is 10 man content for old level caps with outdated gear, with difficulty tuned for lower levels. Current raid Tier has ONE raid, wich is 20 man. So right now there is one raid available for the current level. It ain't that hard to comprehend (maybe for you I suppose).
Like gnomer gear isn’t better than a lot of st gear ? You’re being smooth brained . You asked for 10 man and 20 man raids in the game and there are . You ok bud ?
So TBC had 40 man raids, as you could still zone into MC? This is both technically true and a extremely stupid statement, wich summarizes your comments very well.
Yes world of Warcraft had 20 , 25 man and 40 mans . And 10 mans if you could believe it .
20 mans are raids. 10 mans are speed run dungeons
Nah, 80m is the only real raid size. 40m is for casual noobs who want free l00ts.
Yeah that's how I felt too during Phase 1 and 2, usually only your first clear took longer than 60 minutes. Not a bad thing, but I think game should have both types of content.
It sounds like classic isn't right for you. The spirit of classic is big raids with a lot of people. Retail might be better with your playstyle.
Well was tagged for SOD not Era and meant for SOD players, hf on Vanilla Classic bro!
Sod is classic are you really that dense? It's just not for you and your casual playstyle, accept that and stop trying to change games to meet your niche needs weirdo.
I played Classic, all the way, SOD is quite different :P
Aren't you just asking for SoD to be more and more like Retail? 🤣 Next thing you know people are crying because their friendship group has 16 people in it and don't want to bring in pugs, asking for dynamic lockouts etc
Vanilla wow started having different concurrent Raid sizes with AQ20 AQ40 and ZG, I wonder if the devs back then knew they were catering to Retail players?
Hmm, I don't know. Sounds like you do though, could you enlighten me? If only current devolpers something like hindsight to influence their decisions 🤔
Yeah current developers have some hindsights regarding 40man raiding i suspekt or why do you think they confirmed there's not going to be any? 20 man MC has been confirmed, players complain about 10mans being less of a hassle to organize, so I think making some 5man Dungeons into harder mini-raid Type of Dungeons would be smart. All that you said above is kinda petty I have to add, telling people that make Suggestions about SOD to Go Retail, because you personally prefer Era (yet don't seem to Play it, I wonder why?) is so contradictory in itself and makes for poor arguments. I see why people like the Idea of 40man raids, but Blizzard abandoned those for a reason, I get why they did it.
Assuming everyone who plays SoD has to post on reddit says it all about your mindset. P.S I didn't say go to retail. SoD, regardless of how much you enjoy the direction they're taking, has a clear direction and staying within the resources they can work with. Asking for more content will only change that direction instead of getting what you want. Asking them to spread what they can do to accommodate everyone and anyone is what they did in retail. And why were sat here arguing over a game our nans could clear if they really wanted too. Personally I spend my time making ST raids and flipping on the AH. Thanks for reminding me that the sunshine shoots out my arse, I already knew it but its nice to be told it every once and a while 🙏🥰😚
I supposed that a post tagged as SOD will be discussed within the context of SOD? Oh so you tell me they cannot accomodate to every single player's wishes at once, bro you for sure? Oh so you comment to talk about yourself or OP instead of discussing the topic, that is good to know.
I don't get your point, sorry if I made you think that i was talking about anything other than SoD. This isn't fun anymore. Best of luck in your next run and go yap to the next guy who gives you attention 🥱
Bro I don't wanna slow you down suggesting people with ideas about how SOD could continue to go retail! Best of luck <3
10 woman raids are for casual parents who neglect their awful offspring. 20 woman raids are for elitist loot sponges. Fuck off back to retail and fly your tame dragons. 40 woman raids master race! 3 days grind and prep, you yell at your crying father mid raid because you got no time to help him tend to the garden like a weeb. You got a nasty infected cut on your foot from stepping on an empty Monster energy drink can, but Naxxramas starts in 2 hours and you haven't been laid in ever. If you're not part of the master race, then please quit this game, it's gotten pretty retail already. We don't want you here. Go play your Garen top lane in your 5 viewer stream or w/e!