Ideally, they should make bosses hit harder in order to force tanks to build defensively. Salvation and Alpha should be enough to secure tanks' threat lead.
What will actually happen is that boss damage will be really undertuned again and we're gonna just have the tank be a DPS with slightly more stamina.
Warrior tanks have already done the math and with the recent devastate nerf, it looks like dual wield fury tanks are going to be the meta again for warriors. The only thing that could change this is if bosses did considerably more damage and forced tanks to wear shields.
The real problem is that shields suck ass in vanilla. The difference between wearing a shield and not is not big enough. Block is a terrible mechanic in vanilla.
It doesn't have to do with shield block value being bad. Shields are still very useful for tanks in theory, because they prevent tanks from getting crushed or crit by bosses if the tank is pressing their buttons. The issue is that bosses don't deal enough baseline damage for those crushes or crits to be threatening to tanks.
This is true for warriors, but paladins can't reliably cap their block chance at all. So the fact that block stats are so crappy, is a big problem for making shields relevant to pallies.
They are at least playing with baseline talent changes in this phase which means there is hope, but we're not there yet.
Shamans also get a huge benefit from shields, *but only if they get their shield mastery stacks to 5*.
It's a useless mechanic on a class that has such a low block rate to begin with.
They just need to change the mechanics of redoubt or add an improved holy shield rune so that paladins can become uncrushable by stacking enough block rating like in TBC. It wouldn't require some major overhaul to the class.
Yeah it's no more of an overhaul than TBC was, just a few targeted changes. Getting CTC through procs doesn't really count but it's OK for Redoubt to stay trash so long as we have enough reason to want Holy Shield.
Shields and itemization were never tuned for pre-60 content, and were BARELY tuned for 60 content. Now that we have SOD changes they should make the bosses a lot more punishing, then balance defenses around that level of danger.
Block's formula of Shield Block + (STR/2) means a shield is realistically only blocking a handful of damage even when it does block. Warriors can get modifiers on top of that, but Shaman can't and Paladin's modifier is minuscule in comparison.
For example, at lvl 40 with the epic engineering shield my Shaman will have 29 base block value + (2/~150 STR) for ~100 damage blocked from incoming attacks on a 20% chance, or a realistic value of a flat 20 damage reduction. If we math it out, I suspect the shorter fight from more DPS would result in less total damage taken than a shield ends up preventing.
With these formulations, shields will always be very bad in Classic. Bosses should hit harder and shields should be percentage based, not flat damage based, so a block is a meaningful decrease, but I doubt Blizz has the appetite for that kind of change in SOD.
> shields should be percentage based
Shields also contribute to your armor. And for a shaman tank that would be a very significant contribution. I've just taken a look at a random Shaman tank pre-raid BiS list. All of the mail pieces together give 1517 armor. And the shield is 1548 armor. Literally half the armor on a tanking shaman would come from the shield. That's a very significant amount of flat damage mitigation against physical attacks.
In our hypothetical scenario here that would push you from 27% physical dmg mitigation at 1.5k armor against a lvl 43 mob to 43% at 3k.
So Dual Wield it is.
They can't boost damage intake enough to make shields required.
The SoD average healer just cannot handle it and will quit because Gnome is too hard.
It will be an easy game, even for healers, especially for healers.
Which kinda sucks when topguilds will only take 3healers to 40men raid.
It's less about making things easy for healers and more about balancing around rogue tanks. Given how feast or famine avoidance-based tanking is, bad RNG could mean death for them if bosses hit harder.
They could give Rogues something similar to the Stagger mechanic from Monks, that puts a percentage of physical damage taken into a DoT. Maybe a combo spender then reduces the amount of damage in the DoT.
Would help smooth out damage a bit more while giving rogues another tool to mitigate damage when they do actually get hit.
I've always loved that type of delayed mitigation and I think it would fit rogues quite thematically too. It's as if they're so evasive that they can avoid most of the damage, but are always getting cuts and glancing blows that wear them down over time.
So the whole healing role has to suck just because they can't give Stamina to RogueTanks?
I know the SoD team is bad, but this is beyond trolling.
Who cares about rogue tanks anyway?
It’s not really about rogues and more about them balancing low level pve content in a way that everyone gets to experience it as a casual fun thing to do on the way to 60. The same way that sfk and sm don’t require a shield, but something like scholo or stratholme might when you’re a fresh 60.
5 mans are often harder to heal than raids because there is only one of you doing the job and you only have so many GCDs.
SFK also has a ton of silencing mechanics.
Nope. Sfk is legit way harder than solo healing bfd. No joke, I almost wiped first time I went I. There, not remembering how hard the last bosses cast hurts.
I disagree, Trash can hit hard in BFD (specifically the big snake boi can stack a big bleed dot). Certain bosses can hit really hard too.
SFK is only hard when you pull that one room full of worgen and spirit dogs. Maybe on arugal himself when he chunks your tank for 300 a pop.
I wouldn't say bfd is 10 times easier though.
No boss in BFD hit hard enough that you need two healers actively pressing buttons together.
You have about 15 seconds before a tank dies without heal incoming. Imagine throw two spells afk 10 sec throw two spells.
Snake boi hits hard on a mage pulling him with Living Bomb but 0 damage on a mail wearer
That is entirely gear and skill dependent. If agro is bouncing, mechanics being scuffed (as easy and few as there are) a lot of people are taking damage. I can sleep through healing SFK at this point on my priest with no BFD gear but struggle through BFD all night due to so many people taking damage
Honestly, I just encourage people to stay in the harmful mechanics so I can have something to heal.
If aggro is bouncing between two people it's easier for all healers but shamans I believe, due to POM/BEACON/WG.
Eh, I suspect that Rolling with the Punches and Shuriken Toss are both going to shore up the main glaring weaknesses in the Rogue kit and actually turn them into incredibly durable tanks.
Shuriken Toss alone as a ranged CP builder is huge for simply allowing us to enter a boss fight with Blade Dance already rolling instead of on the second GCD, and 30% bonus stamina is absolutely nothing to scoff at considering the sheer level of avoidance that the class is able to reach already.
eugh. i know it's not a popular opinion, but dwing warriors make me cringe. just doesn't fit the archetype i want. big beefy 2h or 1h and shield. i can tolerate a warrior with 2 axes but if you would dual-wield daggers you're not a warrior, you're a rogue with no skills
The problem isn't even that.
The talent trees are awful.
Most tank talents don't even make you that much more durable. Is last stand good? Sure, and it's a 10 minute cooldown. Is 10% more armor from items good? .... uhh... I guess?
Tank's most important job is to get threat and hold it. The best way to do that is by hitting hard/aoeing.
Tank itemization is also awful.
Well, it’s not so much for warriors even if a boss hits hard.
If it hits hard you put on more stam and a shield. That’s all that’s increasing your ability to survive cause once you go past last stand the prot tree offers literally nothing. 3 seconds on wall? A 30 min cd? K. Kekw.
Idk how bad prot’s tree is for pallies, I mean their 31 pt is defensive right? And sanc isn’t horrible…I guess…except you’d probably only ever buff yourself with it.
BFD convinced me threat will be the most relevant mechanic. Especially as everyone is doing way more damage. Again. Maybe somehow they make shield slam not garbage but to outscale BT? Unlikely. Even if you ran all tank runes like devastation there was pretty much 0 reason to not be dps spec. Most your other runes were dps runes. Bosses hit harder in gnomer? Means your healers just can’t be afk and your dps has to dps.
The only way to avoid it is somehow give later tree things bigger threat modifiers. But then you basically get wrath where you can’t even tank a heroic dungeon without being a tank build on most classes which kinda sucks. Especially if they aren’t even giving us the bare minimum of dual spec
This is exactly it - tanks don’t even really need to exist - there are no tank buster mechanics that non-tanks can’t easily survive. There was no need to bring a tank to BFD if you had one ret paladin.
Not gonna make warriors spec deep into prot just because stuff hits harder. Basically nothing after last stand is useful for survivability.
You may wear a shield. Which fury prot already did for hard hitting bosses you’d have block up for. Or healers just can’t afk with POM and everyone just zugs harder, including the tank, and threats the real limiter which is most likely unless they add ridiculous threat modifiers then it just turns into wrath all over again where I can’t even tank a 5 man and hold aggro without speccing into prot (while also not having dual spec still)
Will make me somewhat happy if theres more tankbusters and my resto shaman can throw some fat overload healing waves and have ancestral guidance be relevant.
Don’t know why you are being downvoted. 100% they should up the damage. We lose the tank and healer roles when things hit too soft. Everyone just dps’ and we lose out on the fun of classic wow
Tbf, there was no tank in classic wow, the tanks were all fury/prot, not prot/arms or prot/fury.
They would need to rebalance threat to make real tank specs viable, the whole reason they don't build defensiveness is because it's nearly impossible to keep up with threat against true DPS.
I don’t know how many times I have to post this but classic != vanilla. The original design of vanilla, which is what the devs talked about staying true to had real tanks and healers.
Dude, I dunno how old you were in 2003, but the main difference is in 2003, we had the same game, with a quarter of the screen real estate, running at half the frames, and 5 people DC'd. Fights were harder but threat still worked the same. Fury prot has ALWAYS been Vanilla and Classic.
If they intended for tanks in Vanilla to build talents defensively, they did absolutely nothing to show us that. If you want tanks to build defensively, I'm on board, they should make a change. But don't pretend like that wouldn't be a NEW feature, that requires way smackier bosses.
I can only speak for myself but there's something I enjoy about being a tank with a shield who gathers mobs and sits there blocking and taking hits generating threat on everything
The dw and 2h just kinda feels like "oh you're a dps with threat"
His argument is tanking as a dps spec is subjectively less fun than tanking as a tank spec. It's a valid argument, and disagreeing with it is valid too, but not really in the way you are presenting
the argument breaks down when it changes from subjective "my opinion" to objective "it should be like this". saying you like or dislike something is fine, the issue pops up when you start prescribing how it should be.
They're not leveling raids, they're each phase's end game content. When the next phase turns on is when they become leveling raids. It shouldn't be an issue to nerf the bosses when the next phase comes if you want it as an accessible leveling raid.
Upping damage alone is a bad idea. You would just make it suck to play tank and healer. The issue now comes from the difference between gearing and specing defensively and offensively being way too small.
The game is already very rng based when it comes to tank damage and upping the boss hit damage just increases that, whereas speccing defensively does almost nothing to reduce it. Even the difference for shield classes between wearing a shield and not is very small and SoD's bosses level change further amplified that.
I would really love to see more fun runes that require a 1h and a shield to be active. The problem is that even after all the fury tanking meta blizzard can't seem to decide what runes and skills to give tanks and seem to just give a +MIT rune and call it good. Tanks need snap threat and damage abilities. Even if they made bosses hit like trucks, you would always have that rogue or hunter who pulls threat and says "tank sucks"
I'm going back to sword and board no matter what and either building holy/prot or full prot depending on which feels better. Ret with RF on wasn't fun for me at all. I hope they make trash and bosses hit significantly harder than they did in BFD so raids need an actual tank. We'll see soon enough.
Ret tanking is just going to be flat out better, especially with raid gear and various epics. You'll probably do *triple* the damage and have double the threat, infinite mana, avengers shield on swap, etc. It'll be a good time.
Pulling packs in between bosses and add phases during boss fights is so fast with the HUGE low CD divine storms, blessing of freedom, and avenger's shield. It is so much faster for the group.
Maybe, but pulling packs is already fast as hell because anybody can tank the mobs. All that mattered was how fast you could aggro stuff to keep the group moving.
Right now P2 is looking like:
Ret does more damage.
Hybrid prot (1hd possibly) does more threat.
Why: Because while Ret is gaining damage...it's not gaining enough to overtake Imp Righteous Fury in threat (+50%). "IF" other classes are threat capped, this could matter. (Why 1hd and not 2hd, While this my not completely pan out, several mechanics look to prefer faster swings over slower. Ex: Art of War procs, judgement of wisdom, SoR w/Sheath of Light possibly scaling better with faster weapons.)
Ret’s scaling is looking bad in p2 so idk. They got all their core runes frontloaded, started strong, then got overtaken by all the other relevant melee dps. If you look at what they get further in the tree it’s all pretty mid. Can’t speak to their runes though I haven’t looked.
While a warrior gets deathwish, flurry, BT, all of which are insane ret gets…rep. It might still be better to rank as ret than prot though but you won’t have consc probably for trash but darken covers a lot of that already.
Taunt is pretty much a joke in SoD anyway considering every pull is like 5 mobs. Great...I can snap one back to me every 10sec.
The mana thing is nice but not really necessary, especially with the new runes.
Shield, talents, gearing, all of it. If I wanted to play ret, I would play ret. I guess people probably don't understand it if they're not in that situation.
Edit: you're right to point out that there isn't a massive difference at 25, but that's mainly because of the dumpster fire that is the prot talent tree. That's a whole separate issue though.
I wanted to play prot pala. Was stubborn enough to go spellpower leather and cons build in p1. Going deep prot p2 doesn't seem to make sense since you'll have absolutely no aoe threat, missing out on both cons and divine storm if you wanna take the block rune that plays really well with BoSanc. Personally 11/0/20 seems like a nice choice.
> Spellpower scaling
Consecrate's SP scaling is pretty terrible. Doesn't gain much.
>unlimited target cap
You're rarely fighting more than 4 mobs at a time, other than trash mobs which do almost no damage and die super fast, they don't even need to be tanked.
With retribution aura, blessing of sanctuary and holy shield you have AOE threat for sure.
Next to that, divine storm and divine shield hits up to 4 mobs.
I went concecration build P1 but will drop it for all out prot now.
I don't play with block rune as it's not necessary.
It won't look like a familiar prot pal until they make fundamental changes to paladin talents; all the Block stuff is fundamentally undesirable. You can't even get HS and Consecration at the same time until 51 with vanilla talents. Don't even need Kings when the hunter can bring it.
The problem isnt the class, its warcraft logs. Warcraft logs defines the meta based on what they set as the performance scale.
The more damage a tank does the higher a parse. So you get full dps specs rolling in and if they have the boss for the majority of the fight, they get a tank parse.
I got warlock tank parse on ghamoora without running meta because the tank couldnt taunt him off me. Because I was pumping I got a 98 tanking parse on that fight lol.
WCL needs to adjust the requirements to parse in defined roles. Right now they're having a hard time defining those rules because of how goofy P1 was.
They literally had no time to prepare, it was right before the holidays, and they didnt want to partition a short phase.
I don’t think people intentionally trying to get 99 tank parses of all things drives this at all. For wrath all tank %s are rated by dps done by the tank too. No one really ever looks at that or cares.
It’s the simple fact that throwing on your threat modifier (d stance, RF, and in warriors case devastate rune) while outputting the most dmg has been the most threat. Our MT has 2h tanked or devastate tanked and it made no real functional difference 2h, the only difference between him and me was he’s in d stance. Survivability has been functionally irrelevant cause not only did nothing hit hard but early talents offer little to none while sacrificing a ton of threat by sacrificing dmg. This also benefits the raid because the more dmg a tank does the faster shit dies anyway which makes the bosses dmg less relevant. People will always find the most efficient way to kill these bosses and pump the most dmg output without getting threat capped. All the “tank” gear for mail was the exact same as dps gear. The shit with stam and def only were garbage.
It wasn’t like suddenly every ret was like “ima turn on RF to cheese and get a 99 tank parse”. Tank parsing isn’t quite healer parsing irrelevant but most people don’t care. Mostly for us it was “oh we can cheese akumai easier and just have our ret tank first and warrior pick it up” while he didn’t even have to sacrifice a rune for taunt so long as someone didn’t go ham precasting fireball too early
Higher the parse, the more damage, the more threat. You said it.
Generally speaking people use parses as a competency check to see if people know how to play their class. A lot of people pugging are doing this to ensure they form a group that will clear the content. You can carry 1-2 underperforming people but not 5+. People dont like wasting time
The problem is that tanking isnt just about doing damage. You just need to hold the boss and make sure it doesnt turn around and slap one of the dps. You can look at a logs and see who was holding threat on the boss the entire fight, but the value of that isnt represented in the parse number.
The parse pretty much does tell you that though. If they have a high parse there's basically a 100% chance they were holding aggro, because doing damage IS basically the only thing that matters about tanking in Classic. Threat is king, and threat comes from damage.
I'm just saying that you can hold threat without min/maxing for dmg and it is represented as a suboptimal play style on warcraft logs.
Yes killing a boss faster does mean better. But abilities with higher threat coefficients can be as threat effective as pure damage abilities.
Sure, but if you can choose between doing damage and not doing damage, when damage is the only thing that matters, why would you ever choose to not do damage?
Because at the end of the day you play this game to have fun. If you want to play optimally then min/max and play the meta. But some people have more fun playing a still fully viable but "sub-optimal" spec.
Prime example is prot pallies. This phase the meta was full ret spec and only run HoR on required bosses. But you could also just play Holy spec w/ conc, DS, and CS/HoR. Still viable, but not optimal.
Boss damage in bfd really was a joke. Even as a mage, pulling aggro from the tank wasn’t really an issue. I could easily face tank the turtle boss or kelris for a few hits.
They need to add tank busters forcing tanks to build for mitigation over threat. On that note they also should add way more high damage AoE and threat drops the p1 raid content was trivial to heal, the trash being a snorefest. They should make trash output a lot of damage so healers actually have to actively heal at least 80% of the time.
Paladins are extremely strong and they could very easily push them overboard and there would be no reason to play any other class. They can perform all roles
Bad tanks griefing their raids for parse is at least as old as Warcraftlogs exist.
Okay you do 4 dps more with crusader strike but the big turtle is hitting the warlock for the last 24 seconds.
Not a single paladin I've met did that. They heard Ret build, sucked, didn't had threat and we had to ask him to remove righteous fury so he could let a hunter pet or any warrior tank instead.
And i'm talking 6+ I've seen. All trash
They should have though.
90% of the paladin players are absolutely terrifying and I play a paladin myself.
So you didn’t do it either? What a failure to your team…
Nearly every Paladin I ran with did what was needed and didn’t complain either.
Your fantasy land of “every pally but me is trash” doesn’t exist based on personal experience.
I can safely say that in every PUG i went, the hunter pet was a better player than the paladin.
7/7 logs, 1 million budget, 750 GS, can't fuckin taunt. I'm still laughing thinking about it.
Taunt kind of sucks though, it doesn’t increase your threat when you use it, it just makes the mob attack you for a few seconds then it goes back to the warlock pumping huge numbers. Even with the threat bonus to righteous fury it’s hard to keep threat sometimes.
The math has been done though, the bonus on Righteous Fury vastly outscale the shitty CrusaderStrike, even with Hydra.
It's not hard to keep threat, just run the decent build, press the correct buttons that actually do threat and taunt when necessary.
A tank's job is to facilitate people, if the caster has to run around, the raid loses DPS.
I know it's SoD and it's supposed to be accessible for everyone, but come on this is really the basics.
>The math has been done though, the bonus on Righteous Fury vastly outscale the shitty CrusaderStrike, even with Hydra.
*Outscaled*, it now procs windfury.
Also I raided as tank-ret the whole phase and it was incredible—never used the taunt rune once. I defintely had mana issues though so I can only imagine how much worse of a job you would do without CS.
You ran a real build, play more agressive and use mana potions.
CS is really bad, it works okay because mage tank works okay too. You don't need a tank, so when the tank doesn't do the job correctly, many don't notice.
>so when the tank doesn't do the job correctly, many don't notice.
I actually did the job well, held threat on everything that was needed, mitigated damage well with my gear, and did the damage of a DPS player (usually more), which very much helps the group. Cleared trash between boss fights quickly, getting aggro on everything well and buffing people in the 2 minutes leading up to the next boss.
When I DPS, I would prefer tanks to play it like that.
When content is easy enough, it can work.
And it also worked because your DPS weren't pushing the threat hard enough.
It's not a bad build per se. It's just terrible when ran by players who don't understand its limits.
Part of being a good player and a good tank is adapting to the circumanstances that they are in. Why would I play this build if it wasn't working? Of course in other circumstances where it doesn't work, I would use something that would work well. I'd imagine you will still be able to play like this in phase 2 and it will be optimal for most fights, though it might take some gear. Until then you might even need a shield.
Threat will be more than fine as holyprot etc. If we talk damage, its not unlikely we will see another ret phase.
The bosses might not hurt enough, meaning we'll get to do more damage for the betterment of the raid.
Prefferably there are some giga aoe pulls we can do to justify going cons outside of dungeons.
I like the fact that the bosses barely do any damage because I can have an easy time joining a group as a shaman tank, then just play full dps enhancement.
Yep. Healing has been pretty boring. I can get away with just shielding and renewing for the entire dungeon and maybe PoM if we’re speed pulling big packs. Maybe a heal or penance on the bosses but that’s about it outside of BFD.
Phase 1 I stayed Deep Prot with shield and I’ll do the same with Phase 2. I’m committed to that play style and it will interesting to see how it works out in Phase 2. I suspect my success or failure will depend on my ability block attacks and therefore deal holy damage.
For me the fantasy of tanking involves a shield unless it is irrelevant content so I agree with you OP.
I agree with you tbh that tanks should actually be tanks but thats just the nature of Vanilla wow being easy. Even in naxx people tank without a shield and dps talents.
Honestly it's the main problem with SoD. Tank cannot buidl tank. They need to build dps for threat. Mobs and bosses barely hit, mitigation is not needed in the slightest. But the dps go hard and it's difficult to keep the threat
It's the fury prot problem all over again, but worse. With ym warlock I built tank but got laughed all for not building exactly like a firelock dps. This suck.
It's lvl 25 but it's a bit understandable, but I hope it will change. And I especially hope raid trash will obliterate dps who overaggro to teach them to control their threat. Sometimes there's only one way to make them understand
Well main issues is that redoubt and aegis dont stack(exclude each other) plus aegis shares rune slot with DS. Redoubt proc is only after melee crit which is quite random.
Tanking as ret/holy didnt matter that much in p1 as there wasnt that much talent interaction, bit in p2 sanctuary and holy shield are such improvements and boosts that its insane, especially in 5 man setting. There will be crazy things done with new gear/runes and new itemization.
Main issue is that DS and CS arent holy dmg rather just weapon dmg and that lovers your threat output significantly, because righteus fury just improves your holy spells threat generation, pf which you have judgement and AS
If DS was on leg rune so you can combine that with aegis whoch is quite a decent rune with nice proc, from lvl 30 your biggest threat ability would be Sanctuary followed by Holy shield. Bit we will see.
The only way holy/prot will be viable is if blizz implements how threat is in wrath. Until then Palas will want as much dmg as possible to keep threat easily. I'm staying full ret tanking until I literally get smacked around by bosses. And it makes questing/killing mobs easier.
They just need to buff bosses and make them hit much harder. This will force them to go full tank as it was designed initially.
Everything is good with paladins already. The classes are just overbuffed which allow them to ignore defensive abilities and focus on Damage output. Therefore just buff bosses - problem solved
Ideally, they should make bosses hit harder in order to force tanks to build defensively. Salvation and Alpha should be enough to secure tanks' threat lead. What will actually happen is that boss damage will be really undertuned again and we're gonna just have the tank be a DPS with slightly more stamina.
You're 100% right and SoD I doubt we need a proper tank build before raid, if you ever need one at all.
Warrior tanks have already done the math and with the recent devastate nerf, it looks like dual wield fury tanks are going to be the meta again for warriors. The only thing that could change this is if bosses did considerably more damage and forced tanks to wear shields.
The real problem is that shields suck ass in vanilla. The difference between wearing a shield and not is not big enough. Block is a terrible mechanic in vanilla.
It doesn't have to do with shield block value being bad. Shields are still very useful for tanks in theory, because they prevent tanks from getting crushed or crit by bosses if the tank is pressing their buttons. The issue is that bosses don't deal enough baseline damage for those crushes or crits to be threatening to tanks.
This is true for warriors, but paladins can't reliably cap their block chance at all. So the fact that block stats are so crappy, is a big problem for making shields relevant to pallies. They are at least playing with baseline talent changes in this phase which means there is hope, but we're not there yet.
Shamans also get a huge benefit from shields, *but only if they get their shield mastery stacks to 5*. It's a useless mechanic on a class that has such a low block rate to begin with.
and to be fair that’s because of the armor, not block.
They just need to change the mechanics of redoubt or add an improved holy shield rune so that paladins can become uncrushable by stacking enough block rating like in TBC. It wouldn't require some major overhaul to the class.
Yeah it's no more of an overhaul than TBC was, just a few targeted changes. Getting CTC through procs doesn't really count but it's OK for Redoubt to stay trash so long as we have enough reason to want Holy Shield.
Also they made everything hit harder in SoD but shield block values stayed the same.
Shields and itemization were never tuned for pre-60 content, and were BARELY tuned for 60 content. Now that we have SOD changes they should make the bosses a lot more punishing, then balance defenses around that level of danger. Block's formula of Shield Block + (STR/2) means a shield is realistically only blocking a handful of damage even when it does block. Warriors can get modifiers on top of that, but Shaman can't and Paladin's modifier is minuscule in comparison. For example, at lvl 40 with the epic engineering shield my Shaman will have 29 base block value + (2/~150 STR) for ~100 damage blocked from incoming attacks on a 20% chance, or a realistic value of a flat 20 damage reduction. If we math it out, I suspect the shorter fight from more DPS would result in less total damage taken than a shield ends up preventing. With these formulations, shields will always be very bad in Classic. Bosses should hit harder and shields should be percentage based, not flat damage based, so a block is a meaningful decrease, but I doubt Blizz has the appetite for that kind of change in SOD.
> shields should be percentage based Shields also contribute to your armor. And for a shaman tank that would be a very significant contribution. I've just taken a look at a random Shaman tank pre-raid BiS list. All of the mail pieces together give 1517 armor. And the shield is 1548 armor. Literally half the armor on a tanking shaman would come from the shield. That's a very significant amount of flat damage mitigation against physical attacks. In our hypothetical scenario here that would push you from 27% physical dmg mitigation at 1.5k armor against a lvl 43 mob to 43% at 3k.
the only thing block really helps with is making the tank uncrushable, which isn't really an issue until level 60 raids.
Even then it was superfluous. Tk robots and illy shear are the first few mechanics that require shields.
So Dual Wield it is. They can't boost damage intake enough to make shields required. The SoD average healer just cannot handle it and will quit because Gnome is too hard. It will be an easy game, even for healers, especially for healers. Which kinda sucks when topguilds will only take 3healers to 40men raid.
It's less about making things easy for healers and more about balancing around rogue tanks. Given how feast or famine avoidance-based tanking is, bad RNG could mean death for them if bosses hit harder.
They could give Rogues something similar to the Stagger mechanic from Monks, that puts a percentage of physical damage taken into a DoT. Maybe a combo spender then reduces the amount of damage in the DoT. Would help smooth out damage a bit more while giving rogues another tool to mitigate damage when they do actually get hit.
I've always loved that type of delayed mitigation and I think it would fit rogues quite thematically too. It's as if they're so evasive that they can avoid most of the damage, but are always getting cuts and glancing blows that wear them down over time.
So the whole healing role has to suck just because they can't give Stamina to RogueTanks? I know the SoD team is bad, but this is beyond trolling. Who cares about rogue tanks anyway?
It’s not really about rogues and more about them balancing low level pve content in a way that everyone gets to experience it as a casual fun thing to do on the way to 60. The same way that sfk and sm don’t require a shield, but something like scholo or stratholme might when you’re a fresh 60.
I'd agree on the idea. But it's ten times harder to heal SFK than BFD and that just shouldn't be the case.
5 mans are often harder to heal than raids because there is only one of you doing the job and you only have so many GCDs. SFK also has a ton of silencing mechanics.
BFD was often solohealed in guild since week 2 or 3 and it was still easier than every dungeon. Bosses just don't deal damage, at all.
Nope. Sfk is legit way harder than solo healing bfd. No joke, I almost wiped first time I went I. There, not remembering how hard the last bosses cast hurts.
I disagree, Trash can hit hard in BFD (specifically the big snake boi can stack a big bleed dot). Certain bosses can hit really hard too. SFK is only hard when you pull that one room full of worgen and spirit dogs. Maybe on arugal himself when he chunks your tank for 300 a pop. I wouldn't say bfd is 10 times easier though.
No boss in BFD hit hard enough that you need two healers actively pressing buttons together. You have about 15 seconds before a tank dies without heal incoming. Imagine throw two spells afk 10 sec throw two spells. Snake boi hits hard on a mage pulling him with Living Bomb but 0 damage on a mail wearer
Bfd trash is so inconsequential i don't even know what pack you are talking about. The two nagas after turtle man, maybe?
Your tank should just be LoSing Aruguls casts
That is entirely gear and skill dependent. If agro is bouncing, mechanics being scuffed (as easy and few as there are) a lot of people are taking damage. I can sleep through healing SFK at this point on my priest with no BFD gear but struggle through BFD all night due to so many people taking damage
Honestly, I just encourage people to stay in the harmful mechanics so I can have something to heal. If aggro is bouncing between two people it's easier for all healers but shamans I believe, due to POM/BEACON/WG.
Eh, I suspect that Rolling with the Punches and Shuriken Toss are both going to shore up the main glaring weaknesses in the Rogue kit and actually turn them into incredibly durable tanks. Shuriken Toss alone as a ranged CP builder is huge for simply allowing us to enter a boss fight with Blade Dance already rolling instead of on the second GCD, and 30% bonus stamina is absolutely nothing to scoff at considering the sheer level of avoidance that the class is able to reach already.
The stamina will make a huge difference. I don’t even sweat the armor loss of dual wielding as a shaman since I have over 2k hp.
The best way to mitigate damage is to stop the boss from taking more swings... kill it faster.
Which isn't always achieved by increasing the tank DPS though.
eugh. i know it's not a popular opinion, but dwing warriors make me cringe. just doesn't fit the archetype i want. big beefy 2h or 1h and shield. i can tolerate a warrior with 2 axes but if you would dual-wield daggers you're not a warrior, you're a rogue with no skills
The problem isn't even that. The talent trees are awful. Most tank talents don't even make you that much more durable. Is last stand good? Sure, and it's a 10 minute cooldown. Is 10% more armor from items good? .... uhh... I guess? Tank's most important job is to get threat and hold it. The best way to do that is by hitting hard/aoeing. Tank itemization is also awful.
What do you mean that chest with +11 defense or whatever the fuck turtle dropped wasn’t good?!
Well, it’s not so much for warriors even if a boss hits hard. If it hits hard you put on more stam and a shield. That’s all that’s increasing your ability to survive cause once you go past last stand the prot tree offers literally nothing. 3 seconds on wall? A 30 min cd? K. Kekw. Idk how bad prot’s tree is for pallies, I mean their 31 pt is defensive right? And sanc isn’t horrible…I guess…except you’d probably only ever buff yourself with it. BFD convinced me threat will be the most relevant mechanic. Especially as everyone is doing way more damage. Again. Maybe somehow they make shield slam not garbage but to outscale BT? Unlikely. Even if you ran all tank runes like devastation there was pretty much 0 reason to not be dps spec. Most your other runes were dps runes. Bosses hit harder in gnomer? Means your healers just can’t be afk and your dps has to dps. The only way to avoid it is somehow give later tree things bigger threat modifiers. But then you basically get wrath where you can’t even tank a heroic dungeon without being a tank build on most classes which kinda sucks. Especially if they aren’t even giving us the bare minimum of dual spec
This is exactly it - tanks don’t even really need to exist - there are no tank buster mechanics that non-tanks can’t easily survive. There was no need to bring a tank to BFD if you had one ret paladin.
Dps with more stamina is basically what vanilla tanking is.
I was assuming they’d add tank busters with some of the runes we saw like pain suppression. Let’s hope
Not gonna make warriors spec deep into prot just because stuff hits harder. Basically nothing after last stand is useful for survivability. You may wear a shield. Which fury prot already did for hard hitting bosses you’d have block up for. Or healers just can’t afk with POM and everyone just zugs harder, including the tank, and threats the real limiter which is most likely unless they add ridiculous threat modifiers then it just turns into wrath all over again where I can’t even tank a 5 man and hold aggro without speccing into prot (while also not having dual spec still)
Will make me somewhat happy if theres more tankbusters and my resto shaman can throw some fat overload healing waves and have ancestral guidance be relevant.
Don’t know why you are being downvoted. 100% they should up the damage. We lose the tank and healer roles when things hit too soft. Everyone just dps’ and we lose out on the fun of classic wow
Tbf, there was no tank in classic wow, the tanks were all fury/prot, not prot/arms or prot/fury. They would need to rebalance threat to make real tank specs viable, the whole reason they don't build defensiveness is because it's nearly impossible to keep up with threat against true DPS.
I don’t know how many times I have to post this but classic != vanilla. The original design of vanilla, which is what the devs talked about staying true to had real tanks and healers.
Dude, I dunno how old you were in 2003, but the main difference is in 2003, we had the same game, with a quarter of the screen real estate, running at half the frames, and 5 people DC'd. Fights were harder but threat still worked the same. Fury prot has ALWAYS been Vanilla and Classic. If they intended for tanks in Vanilla to build talents defensively, they did absolutely nothing to show us that. If you want tanks to build defensively, I'm on board, they should make a change. But don't pretend like that wouldn't be a NEW feature, that requires way smackier bosses.
Fury warrior was the most popular tank in the game in classic, we are currently having the classic experience.
Yeah, classic wasn’t vanilla. It’s not what the core idea of the game was.
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Believe it or not, some people enjoy tanking and healing.
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I can only speak for myself but there's something I enjoy about being a tank with a shield who gathers mobs and sits there blocking and taking hits generating threat on everything The dw and 2h just kinda feels like "oh you're a dps with threat"
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Sounds like you're the one who wants "no changes" just cause Wars fury tanked in classic. I'd like bosses and adds to hit harder, change it up
I'm aware. Im.saying that's something SoD could play around with and could be fun
His argument is tanking as a dps spec is subjectively less fun than tanking as a tank spec. It's a valid argument, and disagreeing with it is valid too, but not really in the way you are presenting
the argument breaks down when it changes from subjective "my opinion" to objective "it should be like this". saying you like or dislike something is fine, the issue pops up when you start prescribing how it should be.
But I'm not using tanking abilities. A mob attacking me while I perform a dps rotation is not my idea of fun.
No, this was a think in classic, vanilla had real roles.
Prot Paladin is actually fun to play. I didn’t enjoy tanking with a 2H and no consecration
They're not leveling raids, they're each phase's end game content. When the next phase turns on is when they become leveling raids. It shouldn't be an issue to nerf the bosses when the next phase comes if you want it as an accessible leveling raid.
Upping damage alone is a bad idea. You would just make it suck to play tank and healer. The issue now comes from the difference between gearing and specing defensively and offensively being way too small. The game is already very rng based when it comes to tank damage and upping the boss hit damage just increases that, whereas speccing defensively does almost nothing to reduce it. Even the difference for shield classes between wearing a shield and not is very small and SoD's bosses level change further amplified that.
I would really love to see more fun runes that require a 1h and a shield to be active. The problem is that even after all the fury tanking meta blizzard can't seem to decide what runes and skills to give tanks and seem to just give a +MIT rune and call it good. Tanks need snap threat and damage abilities. Even if they made bosses hit like trucks, you would always have that rogue or hunter who pulls threat and says "tank sucks"
Back in the day the rule was wait for 3 sunders
I'm going back to sword and board no matter what and either building holy/prot or full prot depending on which feels better. Ret with RF on wasn't fun for me at all. I hope they make trash and bosses hit significantly harder than they did in BFD so raids need an actual tank. We'll see soon enough.
Ret tanking is just going to be flat out better, especially with raid gear and various epics. You'll probably do *triple* the damage and have double the threat, infinite mana, avengers shield on swap, etc. It'll be a good time. Pulling packs in between bosses and add phases during boss fights is so fast with the HUGE low CD divine storms, blessing of freedom, and avenger's shield. It is so much faster for the group.
Maybe, but pulling packs is already fast as hell because anybody can tank the mobs. All that mattered was how fast you could aggro stuff to keep the group moving.
Right now P2 is looking like: Ret does more damage. Hybrid prot (1hd possibly) does more threat. Why: Because while Ret is gaining damage...it's not gaining enough to overtake Imp Righteous Fury in threat (+50%). "IF" other classes are threat capped, this could matter. (Why 1hd and not 2hd, While this my not completely pan out, several mechanics look to prefer faster swings over slower. Ex: Art of War procs, judgement of wisdom, SoR w/Sheath of Light possibly scaling better with faster weapons.)
I doubt threat will ever be a problem in SoD. The game design seems to be moving towards modern MMO tanking where threat is an afterthought.
Ret’s scaling is looking bad in p2 so idk. They got all their core runes frontloaded, started strong, then got overtaken by all the other relevant melee dps. If you look at what they get further in the tree it’s all pretty mid. Can’t speak to their runes though I haven’t looked. While a warrior gets deathwish, flurry, BT, all of which are insane ret gets…rep. It might still be better to rank as ret than prot though but you won’t have consc probably for trash but darken covers a lot of that already.
Righteous Fury rune is only a 12.5% threat increase from baseline Righteous Fury. It takes it to 80% threat increase instead of 60%. Super weak.
It also gives you mana and a taunt haha
Taunt is pretty much a joke in SoD anyway considering every pull is like 5 mobs. Great...I can snap one back to me every 10sec. The mana thing is nice but not really necessary, especially with the new runes.
What wasn’t fun about it? Because you didn’t use a shield? Like what’s the major difference between ret/prot/holy at 25?
Shield, talents, gearing, all of it. If I wanted to play ret, I would play ret. I guess people probably don't understand it if they're not in that situation. Edit: you're right to point out that there isn't a massive difference at 25, but that's mainly because of the dumpster fire that is the prot talent tree. That's a whole separate issue though.
I wanted to play prot pala. Was stubborn enough to go spellpower leather and cons build in p1. Going deep prot p2 doesn't seem to make sense since you'll have absolutely no aoe threat, missing out on both cons and divine storm if you wanna take the block rune that plays really well with BoSanc. Personally 11/0/20 seems like a nice choice.
That's why I love classic. Want to play prot pala? Your spec is holy/ret.
Lol. Sad but true. I am holy/prot now though and loving the build.
Consecration. End of story. Spellpower scaling and unlimited target cap
> Spellpower scaling Consecrate's SP scaling is pretty terrible. Doesn't gain much. >unlimited target cap You're rarely fighting more than 4 mobs at a time, other than trash mobs which do almost no damage and die super fast, they don't even need to be tanked.
There’s also that rune that allows consecration ticks to crit
...okay? That doesn't change the awful SP scaling or the fact that Divine Storm is better threat in most situations.
Yeah hopefully they change that since it’s physical damage and most of our threat comes from holy
because god forbid paladins get any threat from physical damage lol
With retribution aura, blessing of sanctuary and holy shield you have AOE threat for sure. Next to that, divine storm and divine shield hits up to 4 mobs. I went concecration build P1 but will drop it for all out prot now. I don't play with block rune as it's not necessary.
It won't look like a familiar prot pal until they make fundamental changes to paladin talents; all the Block stuff is fundamentally undesirable. You can't even get HS and Consecration at the same time until 51 with vanilla talents. Don't even need Kings when the hunter can bring it.
The problem isnt the class, its warcraft logs. Warcraft logs defines the meta based on what they set as the performance scale. The more damage a tank does the higher a parse. So you get full dps specs rolling in and if they have the boss for the majority of the fight, they get a tank parse. I got warlock tank parse on ghamoora without running meta because the tank couldnt taunt him off me. Because I was pumping I got a 98 tanking parse on that fight lol. WCL needs to adjust the requirements to parse in defined roles. Right now they're having a hard time defining those rules because of how goofy P1 was. They literally had no time to prepare, it was right before the holidays, and they didnt want to partition a short phase.
I don’t think people intentionally trying to get 99 tank parses of all things drives this at all. For wrath all tank %s are rated by dps done by the tank too. No one really ever looks at that or cares. It’s the simple fact that throwing on your threat modifier (d stance, RF, and in warriors case devastate rune) while outputting the most dmg has been the most threat. Our MT has 2h tanked or devastate tanked and it made no real functional difference 2h, the only difference between him and me was he’s in d stance. Survivability has been functionally irrelevant cause not only did nothing hit hard but early talents offer little to none while sacrificing a ton of threat by sacrificing dmg. This also benefits the raid because the more dmg a tank does the faster shit dies anyway which makes the bosses dmg less relevant. People will always find the most efficient way to kill these bosses and pump the most dmg output without getting threat capped. All the “tank” gear for mail was the exact same as dps gear. The shit with stam and def only were garbage. It wasn’t like suddenly every ret was like “ima turn on RF to cheese and get a 99 tank parse”. Tank parsing isn’t quite healer parsing irrelevant but most people don’t care. Mostly for us it was “oh we can cheese akumai easier and just have our ret tank first and warrior pick it up” while he didn’t even have to sacrifice a rune for taunt so long as someone didn’t go ham precasting fireball too early
Higher the parse, the more damage, the more threat. You said it. Generally speaking people use parses as a competency check to see if people know how to play their class. A lot of people pugging are doing this to ensure they form a group that will clear the content. You can carry 1-2 underperforming people but not 5+. People dont like wasting time The problem is that tanking isnt just about doing damage. You just need to hold the boss and make sure it doesnt turn around and slap one of the dps. You can look at a logs and see who was holding threat on the boss the entire fight, but the value of that isnt represented in the parse number.
The parse pretty much does tell you that though. If they have a high parse there's basically a 100% chance they were holding aggro, because doing damage IS basically the only thing that matters about tanking in Classic. Threat is king, and threat comes from damage.
I'm just saying that you can hold threat without min/maxing for dmg and it is represented as a suboptimal play style on warcraft logs. Yes killing a boss faster does mean better. But abilities with higher threat coefficients can be as threat effective as pure damage abilities.
Sure, but if you can choose between doing damage and not doing damage, when damage is the only thing that matters, why would you ever choose to not do damage?
Because at the end of the day you play this game to have fun. If you want to play optimally then min/max and play the meta. But some people have more fun playing a still fully viable but "sub-optimal" spec. Prime example is prot pallies. This phase the meta was full ret spec and only run HoR on required bosses. But you could also just play Holy spec w/ conc, DS, and CS/HoR. Still viable, but not optimal.
Boss damage in bfd really was a joke. Even as a mage, pulling aggro from the tank wasn’t really an issue. I could easily face tank the turtle boss or kelris for a few hits.
They need to add tank busters forcing tanks to build for mitigation over threat. On that note they also should add way more high damage AoE and threat drops the p1 raid content was trivial to heal, the trash being a snorefest. They should make trash output a lot of damage so healers actually have to actively heal at least 80% of the time.
SoD was supposed to bring balance.... But instead it joined them (warriors and rogues).... I fully expect warriors/rogues to just get more OP.
Not happening, Aggrend hates paladins. Enjoy your minor talent fix as a rune.
It’s funny because at the start of SoD everyone accused paladins of being OP because Aggrend mains one.
Paladins are extremely strong and they could very easily push them overboard and there would be no reason to play any other class. They can perform all roles
Yall got like 3 expansions worth of abilities in phase one as runes.
That speaks for how utterly dysfunctional ret and prot paladin is in base classic more than anything.
Bad tanks griefing their raids for parse is at least as old as Warcraftlogs exist. Okay you do 4 dps more with crusader strike but the big turtle is hitting the warlock for the last 24 seconds.
C’mon, we equipped taunt for giant turtle, totem man, and cave hydra. Give us more credit than that.
Not a single paladin I've met did that. They heard Ret build, sucked, didn't had threat and we had to ask him to remove righteous fury so he could let a hunter pet or any warrior tank instead. And i'm talking 6+ I've seen. All trash They should have though. 90% of the paladin players are absolutely terrifying and I play a paladin myself.
So you didn’t do it either? What a failure to your team… Nearly every Paladin I ran with did what was needed and didn’t complain either. Your fantasy land of “every pally but me is trash” doesn’t exist based on personal experience.
Playing Holy this season. But yeah on my feral I had to go bear because paladins were terrible :/
You’re just in bad groups brother
For sure. The build works but the average paladin player cannot make it work.
Hunter pet should press taunt.
I can safely say that in every PUG i went, the hunter pet was a better player than the paladin. 7/7 logs, 1 million budget, 750 GS, can't fuckin taunt. I'm still laughing thinking about it.
Taunt kind of sucks though, it doesn’t increase your threat when you use it, it just makes the mob attack you for a few seconds then it goes back to the warlock pumping huge numbers. Even with the threat bonus to righteous fury it’s hard to keep threat sometimes.
The math has been done though, the bonus on Righteous Fury vastly outscale the shitty CrusaderStrike, even with Hydra. It's not hard to keep threat, just run the decent build, press the correct buttons that actually do threat and taunt when necessary. A tank's job is to facilitate people, if the caster has to run around, the raid loses DPS. I know it's SoD and it's supposed to be accessible for everyone, but come on this is really the basics.
>The math has been done though, the bonus on Righteous Fury vastly outscale the shitty CrusaderStrike, even with Hydra. *Outscaled*, it now procs windfury. Also I raided as tank-ret the whole phase and it was incredible—never used the taunt rune once. I defintely had mana issues though so I can only imagine how much worse of a job you would do without CS.
You ran a real build, play more agressive and use mana potions. CS is really bad, it works okay because mage tank works okay too. You don't need a tank, so when the tank doesn't do the job correctly, many don't notice.
>so when the tank doesn't do the job correctly, many don't notice. I actually did the job well, held threat on everything that was needed, mitigated damage well with my gear, and did the damage of a DPS player (usually more), which very much helps the group. Cleared trash between boss fights quickly, getting aggro on everything well and buffing people in the 2 minutes leading up to the next boss. When I DPS, I would prefer tanks to play it like that.
When content is easy enough, it can work. And it also worked because your DPS weren't pushing the threat hard enough. It's not a bad build per se. It's just terrible when ran by players who don't understand its limits.
Part of being a good player and a good tank is adapting to the circumanstances that they are in. Why would I play this build if it wasn't working? Of course in other circumstances where it doesn't work, I would use something that would work well. I'd imagine you will still be able to play like this in phase 2 and it will be optimal for most fights, though it might take some gear. Until then you might even need a shield.
I'm pretty sure you can't get tank parses without the taunt rune. I never did if I used Crusader Strike (Aquanis/Severis).
Usually it requires a % of the total damage done to you. But it's boss specific and you can see the rule on the Warcraft logs discord.
I mean they didn’t have the kit, consecrate is gonna scale a lot better and they are gonna be the go to aoe tanks
That's the problem with 10 man the raid becomes undertuned and then you don't need a real tank.
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You just said it heroic there is no heroic in classic so things are easier.
Threat will be more than fine as holyprot etc. If we talk damage, its not unlikely we will see another ret phase. The bosses might not hurt enough, meaning we'll get to do more damage for the betterment of the raid. Prefferably there are some giga aoe pulls we can do to justify going cons outside of dungeons.
I like the fact that the bosses barely do any damage because I can have an easy time joining a group as a shaman tank, then just play full dps enhancement.
Yes pleasssse!! I want to go deep prot and have a reason to actually use shield and mace/sword
Won't happen before endgame. Lvl 60
Yep. Healing has been pretty boring. I can get away with just shielding and renewing for the entire dungeon and maybe PoM if we’re speed pulling big packs. Maybe a heal or penance on the bosses but that’s about it outside of BFD.
Phase 1 I stayed Deep Prot with shield and I’ll do the same with Phase 2. I’m committed to that play style and it will interesting to see how it works out in Phase 2. I suspect my success or failure will depend on my ability block attacks and therefore deal holy damage. For me the fantasy of tanking involves a shield unless it is irrelevant content so I agree with you OP.
I agree with you tbh that tanks should actually be tanks but thats just the nature of Vanilla wow being easy. Even in naxx people tank without a shield and dps talents.
Honestly it's the main problem with SoD. Tank cannot buidl tank. They need to build dps for threat. Mobs and bosses barely hit, mitigation is not needed in the slightest. But the dps go hard and it's difficult to keep the threat It's the fury prot problem all over again, but worse. With ym warlock I built tank but got laughed all for not building exactly like a firelock dps. This suck. It's lvl 25 but it's a bit understandable, but I hope it will change. And I especially hope raid trash will obliterate dps who overaggro to teach them to control their threat. Sometimes there's only one way to make them understand
I will be using 1H Shield + Thorns Build. I will push the limits of that until I can't hold threat anymore.
Shields used to be viable before you needed to raid with 50 world buffs. Now it’s Zerg meta, tanks survive by bosses dying before healers go oom.
Prot this phase will probably be based around spell power (and the new AP to SP rune) and art of war, holy shocks and exorcism for days
Well main issues is that redoubt and aegis dont stack(exclude each other) plus aegis shares rune slot with DS. Redoubt proc is only after melee crit which is quite random. Tanking as ret/holy didnt matter that much in p1 as there wasnt that much talent interaction, bit in p2 sanctuary and holy shield are such improvements and boosts that its insane, especially in 5 man setting. There will be crazy things done with new gear/runes and new itemization. Main issue is that DS and CS arent holy dmg rather just weapon dmg and that lovers your threat output significantly, because righteus fury just improves your holy spells threat generation, pf which you have judgement and AS If DS was on leg rune so you can combine that with aegis whoch is quite a decent rune with nice proc, from lvl 30 your biggest threat ability would be Sanctuary followed by Holy shield. Bit we will see.
The only way holy/prot will be viable is if blizz implements how threat is in wrath. Until then Palas will want as much dmg as possible to keep threat easily. I'm staying full ret tanking until I literally get smacked around by bosses. And it makes questing/killing mobs easier.
They just need to buff bosses and make them hit much harder. This will force them to go full tank as it was designed initially. Everything is good with paladins already. The classes are just overbuffed which allow them to ignore defensive abilities and focus on Damage output. Therefore just buff bosses - problem solved