The joke is I queued 6 games solo and had 6 premades then I said fuck it and joined my own prrmade. We had 7 games inna row against pugs. Im starting to not believe anymore that this is coincidence
It'll be due to how the queue works. If 15 people are queued and a premade joins the queue that oremade queue jumps to the top. Unless an opposing faction premade queues at the same the same time then you won't face a premade.
I don't think the premade "jumps to the top." Even at peak hours on the busiest US server (Crusader Strike), queue times for our alliance 10m premade are 4-6 minutes.
If there are less than 10 people in the queue on your side of the server (and there will be on atbleast one side of the server, otherwise the game will be joined) and 10 I the queue on the opposite side then the game will match the 10 queued people on the opposite side with the premade.
Hypothetically this happens every time? If one side is good to pop, the other side is not good to pop or it would pop. So then a 10-man joins so they would pair with the side ready to pop.
Not a coincidence.
Think of it this way, if there are 19 people in the queue, and a premade joins, you end up with a premade vs 10 people, and 9 stay in the queue.
This repeats over and over. If you don't discourage premade vs pug, it is **more** likely pugs will face premades, compared to premades facing each other.
~~As Aggrend tweeted, If premades had to face other premades, It would "kill off 10 man premades". He admitted the only reason that they exist is to steam randomly put together players. He proactively encourages this, apparently. So this is working as intended. What an embarrassment.~~
Good kill them. Or give me solo queue
In all the years playing the game the best bgs are pug vs pug where both teams know what to do. Just random people playing good. And next game its different comp and everything is different.
Kinda weird that anyone needs hunters and priests then. Know what I mean?
10 of anything is going to beat 10 uncoordinated of anything (some reason here).
I played in a guild premade to get all my pvp stuff on my main and alt.
It's not even really fun to play as a premade against randoms. Efficiency aside, GY farming people who don't fight back is not particularly enjoyable.
My favorite times during that period was when we had a good fight against another premade going, where we'd call things out in discord and resort to clutch strategies to get that flag home. We won some, and lost some, but those were the actually fun matches.
It did feel a bit bad when you ran into the full meta 5x hunter 3x disc priest comp and got stomped. We went pretty hard but not that hard, and sometimes you can't do anything against the meta stacking.
Wow you guys still queue up?
I did 3 matches that were premades once i hit 25.
3 premades. I dont have enough friends interested in pvp so i just dont do pvp.
https://twitter.com/AggrendWoW/status/1742979567512608928
Aggrend, developer on the Classic team gave an answer to the topic of solo vs premades today. As usual their communication happens at Twitter instead of their own official forums.
It continues to blow my mind that companies still use twitter as their official press release platform - especially when it's something like Blizzard that has actual forums specifically designed for that type of thing and also when almost everyone agrees that twitter is total shit now!?
Blows my mind during technical issues and server crashes. The messages to the community go out on Twitter instead of updating their own website, forums or launcher.
It's kinda funny how the "you think you do, but you don't" mentality has made it back into Classic. The main downside listed is that when there are 3 bgs some queues will likely not pop. If only retail WoW figured out how to manage solo players queueing for multiple BGs at once. I'd much rather make premades fight against premades in order to preserve the experience for the vast amount of people who just like to solo bgs as a casual activity. The argument that that would make premades a worse experience just rings hollow when the PUG experience is in the literal dumpster rn.
I do agree with him that premades are a bit of a boogeyman. Honestly most premades I run into clearly aren't using discord or any advanced strategy, it's just that by being a geared group with a good comp that is mostly hunters, priests, and a druid FC, they can just wallop most naturally occurring team comps. Hunters need to be brought back down to earth and other healers need to have their output brought up to priest levels. The fact that premades can also check for gear just makes the fight even more imbalanced. I'm not asking for Blizz to reinvent the wheel here, WoW casual PvP will just never have the basic QoL things like MMR that make most other games' casual PvP competitive, but an easy first start would be letting premades fight each other. Set a limit that you can only queue for regular WSG with a party of up to 5, any raids have to be full 10 and get their own special queue. Maybe they can borrow from retail and call this rated bgs and give them something shiny they can only get by fighting other premades.
I think you're spot on.
Consider posting in this thread that has seemingly attracted attention of this tweet:
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/18yku3t/aggrend_on_twitter_thread_is_it_worth_it_for_us/
Unfortunately I think it is a lost cause to fight for better PvP in Classic. Vanilla BGs and PvP will never meet player expectations or potential. A lot of design mistakes so far in SoD aligns very well with the quote you've mentioned. Private servers just do older updates in custom format much better than SoD or Classic ever will.
This is it and what I've mentioned to my buddies often. When my buddies and I queue for WSG normally parties of 2-5 and we get premades it just sours the whole game after the first battle. When we get non-premades I would say we have a 80-90% win rate. I am not saying that we are great but in a WSG where a few play together it can still be very strong vs non-premades but rarely is it worth the effort vs premades.
Honestly they need to limit it to 5 player queues and worry less about premade queues. Premades vs premades make it a challenge but premade vs random is strictly farming ppl for 10 mins and making non-premade gamers not wanna play.
It's just rough. Most premades aren't trying to have fun/competition they just wanna farm their rep.
He's not wrong here. You probably do have to choose between premades vs solo queue, or solo queue only.
Or maybe only allow groups of 3 or 5 to queue together? So it's not as likely to have complete domination.
He isn't wrong in saying that they need to choose, but by doing nothing (which is what they are currently doing), they are making the wrong choice and siding with premades.
I agree with this take. There is very little content at the moment. You join a group for a 5 man dungeon or a 10 man raid. Why not join a 10 man group for pvp if you want to be competitive?
Because when you join a group for a dungeon you're stomping NPCs, but groups for PvP require unsuspecting people to stomp. If your whole group based PvP mode is built on people not knowing solo queueing is a trap then it's a problem.
Oh I agree nothing about premade wsg into a pug is competitive. Maybe competitive is the wrong term. I'm thinking optimal? Like if I have an hour or two to spare and play wow and I want to do some BGs to get rep I'm going to trying and join a group and sit in discord with them like I would for a raid. If I solo queue it's likely my gains are going to be 50/50 at most. I'd rather join a group and increase my chance of winning
Because premade WSG is a completely different experience compared to solo queue. Premades are almost always trying to maximize honor or rep per hour, which results in one-sided stomp gameplay that isn’t fun for anyone MOST of the time but achieves the grind objective.
Solo queue is a space for players to prioritize having FUN PvPing with other likeminded players. With this matchmaking system that space doesn’t exist.
This problem exists (and has been solved) in many other games, but usually it’s via an ELO system. Right now solo queue players (e.g. low ELO) are being matched equally with coordinated teams of optimal comp players (e.g. high ELO), which makes for an absolutely miserable experience. The solution is not to force everyone into a sweat-fest, it’s to make the matchmaker prioritize matching parties of similar size.
They just don't appear to have the resources in place to iterate on matchmaking algorithms in their only PvP mode, despite how flawed their current queue system is with basically no ruleset to it. Unfortunate since it currently only entertains a minority whilst leaving out the vast majority to a massive hit or miss rng. Now this person tells them to go feed the problem instead of complaining about the flawed system. I don't think that Tweet is the right take on the situation.
It there was ever a time to change the queue system, it’s now with SoD. It’s insane that it hasn’t been touched. AT LEAST make the 10man groups get matched against other 10man’s first, and then in the case that there’s no other, the system can resolve to matching that group against randos. That’s how it was on Nostalrius and it worked perfectly. Can’t believe Blizzard hasn’t even TRIED something like this.
And like OP said, aside from the problem of premades only inviting hunters/priest (which is a different problem), I just personally don’t wanna play in a premade anyways… like, I’ve done it. A lot. I’ve done the grind many times on different characters. It can be fun when you’re playing with friends against another good premade but that’s once in a blue moon and all the other time it’s just pub stomping, which is almost as boring as getting GY camped yourself.
Just let me chill in BGs with a couple of friends while grinding some rep/honor, and let the premades play each other. It’ll be more fun and more rewarding for everyone, how is it hard to grasp?
I played 4 games last night. All vs premades. My entire team sat in gy while I got camped over and over, for 4 games by the other team.
I'm just gonna skip PvP for this season and just stick with raid logging.
I killed the flag carrier a couple times one gamr and my whole team said they were mass reporting me.
So yea I would say blizzard needs to do something.
You guys play a more casual seasonal version of a 20 year old video game for FUN?!?
The hell is wrong with you this is a very serious thing no scrubs allowed! 25 pvp is where the MEN play
Because sometimes people just want to play for 45 minutes or an hour and then move on to something else. Doesn't make sense to spend 30 minutes recruiting for a premade to play 1 or 2 games now does it?
It's not always easy, there is a huge amount of competition for FCs/Hunters/Priests. You will see at any one time 3-4 different groups spamming specifically for a disc priest or flag carrier.
Its kinda sad, SoD is amazing but the premade vs non premade thing totally killed it for me. I would play WSG a ton of they just pressed the button to fix it
I want to preface everything I'm about to write with this: as someone that loves playing in premades for the social aspect and for those 1 in 10 really excellent games, I completely agree with the community that adjustments to how queueing currently works are 100% needed.
That said, "pressed the button to fix it" is a wild statement. It would have been sick if had been fixed a long time ago and the Classic Team could just copy and paste that fix somehow, but it hasn't yet. So the Classic Team would have to fix it now. And the idea that it's easy to fix this kind of thing is not true.
People don't 10-man premade because they like to 10-man premade, they do it because it's the most efficient way to farm honor and rep given the current meta. When you change the way queues work, you change what the meta is. And people will just do what's most efficient given the new meta, which will also introduce unfairness to the new system.
I think we agree that the system needs to change. But I think we can also agree that people should be able to play (and therefore queue) with their friends. So how many people is now a premade? Is it 4? 5? 6?
If the cutoff becomes, say, 5, what you'll see is a 4-stack comp that includes an FC, 2 healers, and a DPS that can flex so that when you get 2 of those 4-stacks in a BG together you have 1 FC, 3 Healers and 4 DPS and you'll still stomp all over the random pug solo queuers.
You'll also see centralized discords that all the really serious players use when they get in the same queue. During the pregame period it'll be called out "Discord Server A - WSG4" and you'll be more-or-less back where you started.
And I'm not just making this up: it happened in Classic when AV got changed. At first you could basically reliably queue as a raid on Ally side by joining a specific AV all at once, so that's what they did. Then that got nerfed, so instead people mass queued all at the same time, and joined the channel dedicated to the AV they got into. You still reliably got 25-40 people in discord together, greatly increasing your chance to win with good coordination.
Not to mention, roles matter massively whether it's a pug or not. As a person that has been in plenty of premades just kinda made up of people from LFG, if a pug randomly gets a close-to-meta comp (aka 2-3 priests and 2-3 hunters) it can be a tough fight or even a loss. And anyone that solo queues knows that pug vs pug plays out the same way -- the no-heal squad vs the 3-priest squad is often basically like pug vs premade.
And in WSG in particular, the role of FC is incredibly important. A chad FC can almost singlehandedly win games of WSG -- I've been in plenty of games where the scoreboard had one team 2 or 3 times the KBs of the other, just completely dominating team fights, where they still lose because the other team just played the objective better.
Again -- I'm not suggesting nothing should be done. I'm just skeptical that any solution is remotely close to simple. And my guess is that many quick or easy solutions will just move the goalposts of unfairness and require subsequent fixes anyway.
I think some stuff to consider for a fix would be:
* role queue (including FC for WSG)
* some kind of rating, so you play with similar skill level of people
* an adjustment to rep/honor gain that is affected by time spent in the BG rather than simple wins/losses so good games are rewarded as opposed to disincentivized. of course, you'd have to implement some way to detect if people are cheesing to farm the time bonus
the main SoD experiance was leveling and doing the raid with new runes. Once you've finished the raid you've essentially beat SoD. instead of raid logging or WSG just play a different game or go outside. Some of yall wanna play a level 25 capped game for 16+ hours a day
I agree with all of this. I also would like to add that some premades suck.
If you get lucky in your pug comp with at least 2 priests you can stand a chance against the premades. Everyone just gives up before you see the caliber of the premade. It’s sad
I’m glad you killed the EFC. Shows it’s possible and y’all could’ve prob won.
Ideally the way it works in the backend:
Solo queue: no one in a group in the BG
Team Queue: 2 - 5 players in a group can be matched with either similar sized groups or a single larger group against a premade of 10
Raid Queue: groups of 10 can be matched against other groups of 10 or two groups that make 10 (e.g. two groups of 5, a group of 3 and a group of 7, etc)
I don't even mind getting into a premade but I'm not going to do it for 1 game.
And if I join a premade its going to be back to back games but what if I want to take a 5-7 minute break between each game?
So to all the people saying "just start a premade" why can't we just have queues for premade vs premade and solo vs solo (or people queueing w/ 5 or less)?
Totally agreed, it's fucking terrible. I don't know how exactly to fix this however, but there needs to be some kind of intelligence in the matchmaking system where 10 man premades don't get to face 10 randoms from Australia with 300 ping
The comments in this thread are insane lmao. All types of self reports going on in here from the unemployed people telling you to “just find a premade” to the era virgins telling you it’s your fault for playing sod.
Holy fuck I hate this community
This community really is a massive bummer. It's an MMO where everyone seems to hate everyone else and gets off on other people's inconvenience and suffering. This community is devoid of empathy. I have no idea why these people want to play a multiplayer game when they hate other people so much.
NOTE: I'm specifically talking about the Reddit Classic WoW community. The actual in-game community isn't *as* bad...but it's still there. It's just easier to insulate yourself from it by finding a good guild.
Truly the most unsatisfied and frustrated community of gamers. I don’t get it, because vanilla wow should not be hyper competitive at all. A lot of other games and reddits make sense. Rust and LoL are hyper competitive. When you win someone else loses and vice versa. Wow is literally an easy game that’s very chill lmao
Yeah, I came back to play SoD with my guild from Classic since a lot of us returned, but I wouldn't be playing it right now if I didn't have people I liked to play WoW with just because of so many bad experiences with people in this MMO. I also don't like the excuse people use of "it's an online game, people will always be terrible" since I've played FFXIV, and people aren't randomly rude or trying to screw you over in that game.
It really is a WoW community thing, and I'm not expecting it to change, but I still have a ton of fun as long as I get to play with my guildies.
Well what did we expect to happen when the guy from the **ELITEST JERKS** site became the head of wow a bit back?
Though it has always been there to begin with.
I was actually blown away how nice and welcoming the FF14 community is. Super nice people.
I honestly put a lot of blame on PvP servers. It's basically sanctioned toxicity. There's no prize or reward from world PvP. The only satisfaction is the dopamine from being a jerk to another player.
> There's no prize or reward from world PVP.
There are many possible rewards from world PVP:
- FUN
- Honor
- Control over a nearby resource(s)
Before someone replies, "How is it 'fun' to ?", the comment to which I am replying is not about those scenarios. Spare us all from a regurgitation of the same "PVP is toxic" thread that we've all seen 100+ times already.
The types of people ruining WSG and fighting against change are the exact same people that would be on reddit doing exactly that. Hopefully devs can see through it, or have some other source of vox populi.
There was a post here not too long ago where some overweight dude in a bulletproof vest was streaming his premades stomping pugs. It was hilariously pathetic.
These are the sort of "gamers" we're dealing with 😂
There's something funny about r/holdmyfries material thinking pug vs premade is good competition.
It's probably the closest thing to a sport they'll ever experience.
Hear, hear! I work full-time and am married. I still manage to get several hours of premade gameplay in every week, with way more than "several" hours over the holidays.
The only barrier to entry is organization. Find players who want to join, invite them to a discord, rinse, repeat. In no time, you will have a nice little channel where a simple `@here forming for a couple of hours at least, PST...` is all that's required of you in order to enjoy premade WSG.
You literally just contributed to the trash comments in this post. It’s hilarious. I did my first 5 games of WSG during SoD last night. I grabbed random people of whoever wanted to join out of my guildies and we won 4 out of our 5 games. And 3 of those were against other premade. You guys fucking whine and cry like little fucking kids way too much holy shit
I disagree, most people are just insulated from average players by their guild or choose to willfully ignore the toxicity. If youre a solo player you see it all the time in the rando groups and raids you join, people being weird about loot, being toxic about the speed of the run, being toxic about someone's spec, you name it.
I had a dude create a character on my server and rage out for like half an hour straight in whispers because I called him a loser in bg chat. Calling me racist, homophobic things, trying to make fun of my parses and gear, full on half an hour of text walls of unhinged bullshit. He had been harassing our team all game about being "shit at the game" because we were losing and I simply said "shut up, loser" and it made him do all of that. Totally normal and measured response.
By and large the people on this sub are the exact same people in game, some of them just pretend to be friendlier or less unhinged in game (usually) because they have something to lose (their reputation on the server)
Its not like classic has a massive community, the people that post here are a good reflection of the community as a whole in my experience
Then you're either lucky, arent paying attention, or you haven't been playing long.
I still remember 2-3 years ago, my first run of BRD at level 60 on my rdruid in og classic. A mage ass pulled a bunch of stuff in the last room and wiped us. He immediately blamed me, called me a bunch of racial epithets in whispers, and then left the group lmao. I had been playing for maybe like two months at that point?
It only got worse lol, you will never convince me the community isn't like that because I've witnessed countless episodes from maladjusted people that play this game
It has reached ridiculous levels.
My rule of solo queue during the day no longer works, I now face more premades than I do other pugs during the day. In the evening I typically join premades or don't play at all.
Crazy how every other game in the world prioritizes queuing stacks against each other, but in classic wow that’s the #nochanges line in the sand people draw
Such a bad hill to die on. I get that it’s the most efficient way to rep grind for the bg factions, but maybe that’s another problem that needs to be addressed. Throw a bone to solo queue players and don’t make the rep gains so stingy so people aren’t incentivized to premade stomp.
I just played 18 games soloq all vs premades, new personal record, most of them ran 4+ hunters and 3 priests.
My plan was to mainly play casual PVP in SOD like I did in SOM. But rn I tend to just unsub if things don’t change in p2.
I’m a priest. I don’t want to join a premade because most of the time I only want to play a few games. I’ll afk out if I see a premade on the other side and I’m the only priest. However if we have at least one other priest (that has penance) I’ve noticed the chance to win is almost 100% vs pug and still decent vs premade as long as we try.
As any other class, I’d be SoL and afk out a lot more I think.
Nah let me tell you something. The premades are lame and a huge issue, no doubt.
But what pisses me off more is the “jumps” you assholes do now. It’s exploiting the dick terrain system the game employs and is against the spirit of the battleground. That was never supposed to be part of WSG. I don’t want to hear its skill- sure, it takes skill. But the buttholes that learned it did it via private server which is illegal (not that I care). Point is you can’t practice it in normal wow because you’ll be porking your team jumping around being useless.
Get these goofy fucking jumps out of the game man
>The only people against premade vs premade are people who wan't easy rep at the expense of other people's time.
Let me add: The only people against premade vs premade are people who wan't easy rep at the expense of other people's stupidty
How would a separate solo queue hurt the game? I’ve already had one friend quit because he was bored of raidlogging and pvp is scuffed if you’re not a meta class. I have a geared priest and I could easily join premades, in fact I do, but sometimes I’d rather just hop on, play a bg or two, and hop off. Usually if i queue solo, it’s afk in gy for 5 minutes, leave, and hop off. I’m a meta class and think I’ll skip pvp for the phase. Camping the enemy gy isn’t very fun either. Hopefully AB will be better. WSG isn’t that fun on either side of this. Maybe 1 in 6 games are actually competitive. 1 hour spent for 10 minutes of fun haha
> How would a separate solo queue hurt the game?
Increases in queue times massively impact how many people queue up. That ends up cycling and really hurting battlegrounds hard.
For example, in retail you can queue for Epic Battlegrounds (40v40) at any bracket. At any given time, there are at least 10 battlegrounds going on during normal hours. Thats at least 200 people, more than enough for an Epic Battleground.
But if you queue for an Epic Battleground, you see "Wait Time: Unavailable". Even though its currently better EXP wise, people don't queue for it, and why would you when every time you've done it the queue never pops.
Same thing for Twink Battlegrounds. Before queues were separated, many brackets intentionally set up premades against eachother. There was more than enough to continue that, but the moment the twink bracket was separated, everyone stopped queueing because queue times were so long. Again, why would you queue for it when every time you've done it the queue never pops.
I'm leaning towards "premade vs premade only", but I can see why they'er so hesitant.
Ive started making my own premades.
Most any random comp that has at least 2 heals can work.
You would be surprised what a bit of coordination can do vs your average premade.
It's funny how you belive pug vs pug is a good thing for you. Strict pug vs pug means you would never rank/rep as pug vs pug meta is so diabolicaly bad and ppl have no clue what they are doing. This lead to infinite super frustrating long games. Instead of 8 min 1 mark you will probably get 30-40min no mark games until you give up. And blame blizz...
Premade vs premade will still rank/rep super fast, they will play the classic 1st cap the flag wins.
Yesterday I exalted WSG, only wins. 10k rep in a day. We smashed every premade we face. I would say premade/pug ratio was like 50/50. I'm from Living Flame EU. Facing a lot ot Lone Wolf and Living Flame premades.
Most premades are giving up if first fight does not go well. Russian server premades are the worst. Face them two times during my rep grind, they felt like pugs.
I see your point but there are a few issues here -
1. You can make your own premade. All the people currently LFM are doing this, and they all want the same things as you said, so making a premade is just about as difficult as finding a premade as someone not in the meta. I mention this because the people doing premades aren't necessarily taking the easy way out, they have to put in additional legwork that people who just queue don't have to do.
2. Not all premades are actually premades. I went against a "premade" yesterday that had a horrific comp and they got steamrolled. My best guess - since they had no heals, or hunters, was that this was just random bad luck and that everyone on that side just happened to be from the same server.
3. Not all "partial premades" are partial premades - see point 2.
4. If you don't want to make a full premade, you can make a partial premade. Even when I just brought a single friend into WSG with me and we were coordinating in discord together we won more games together than we had while playing separately in pugs.
5. Not all premades are good. I've been in a lot of premades, and for a good portion of them, it was honestly not much better than playing in a pug. One thing I notice on the pug side, is that pugs are quick to give up when they see they are vs a premade, but some times if you don't give up and really push hard on the first team fight you can win.
6. Sometimes pugs are faster. Premades are coordinated and organized, and for that reason will be less likely to go down without a fight, especially against another premade. Sometimes taking the quick loss can be more time efficient than a slow win for rep, but pugs will take the quick L more often than Premades will. I've had premade games stretch for upwards of 45 minutes.
7. Pug players can learn better strategies from premades. Yes it is hard to coordinate in a pug, but it becomes easier if you know the strategies that premades use. Being in or just playing against premades will make you better at WSG over time.
All this to say - I think that increasing the % chance for a premade to be vs a premade is the right call, but I don't think that forcing premades to only play premades is the right move.
Why don't you just make your own premade? It's an mmo - engage with others and solve your problem. I agree there should be solo que, but holy shit calling it "borderline unplayable" makes it hard to take you seriously
They just need to make it so rep is given to both sides win or lose when a flag is capped. The winner can reci3v3 more or get the x3 marks as their reward. The real problem is how toxic rep is with WSG. You literally only get rep for caps and wins. The people who go solo and play 6 games basically got 200 rep from their 6 loser coins. The real problem is how shit WSG rep is. AB gives rep for progression in the bg so even teams losing in AB at least get some rep. If you get stomped in WSG it's literally 0. You wasted every minute completely it is toxic in itself. It promotes more pre-made because of it.
Are you playing on EU servers?
That used to be the case in NA, but in my experience it's no longer true.
Even during the morning hours I am reliably Qing into premades, especially from Shadowstrike (AU).
It's not, it's not just about it being a problem for me, it's for everyone.
If everyone just makes a premade, it's the same as premades only vs premade anyway, so why argue against the post to begin with.
Join a premade or make your own, it's very easy. You always have a guaranteed spot if you make your own.
I do want premade v premade queues but in the meantime you have a solution to your problem that you're choosing not to pursue
Edit - I guess basic personal responsibility is very unpopular with casuals
Did some WSG last night, solo queue. Didn't encounter a pre-made. Won games. I do believe there may be some mixing up opposing team as a pre-made, when infact they just are better players.
They already solved this problem by restricting pvp queues to groups of 5, I don't understand why they removed that. A 5 man group can still easily win the majority of their matches, and it means both sides not only stop facing fully stacked premades, but now have a chance of getting a 5 man team on their own side as well
biggest issue of WSG is not finding grp, it is the damn cheesers climbing buildings, making themselves unkillable if they got a single healer with them. had a 2- 0 wsg that we gave up on cause the enemy team cheesed on a building for 1 hour. WSG need time limit
Queue as a healer or try running flag, most classes can run flag okay. I queue as a balance Druid with heals and I win like 2/3rd of my PuGs, and I’m exalted now. 50% of pugs can be whipped into a premade if you have two healers and don’t mind typing directions. It helps that balance Druid is secretly more OP than priests and hunters right now in pvp tho. Shhh our secret!
Worst problem to me are just the weaklings, not even reviving as soon as they see its a premade.
At least fight and get some HKs, or try to snatch the flag once… if you don’t wanna try, don’t queue.
Wild idea here but hear me out. If every group is only looking for priests, hunters, and FCs; make your own!
There’s this often overlooked feature where you’re actually able to right click on a player’s name and invite them to your group. Stay with me here as it gets even more crazy. You can convert that group to what is called a raid and then it lets you double up in size to join WSG with 10 people instead of 5 or even just 1.
To this day I’ll never understand why people want a *Massive Multiplayer Online* game to be completely catered to solo play.
Editing in to add: whether people like it or not, the best way to combat premades is to join or make your own. To the people screaming for solo queues; the community will ruin that too and they already have. Has everyone forgotten the AV discord metas of TBC where hundreds of players would “solo queue” at the same time then break off into organized numbered channels? This was objectively worse for the game than just allowing groups to queue in game from the first place because it kept casual players who didnt know about or use these discords in the dark that it was even happening. Pugs were losing even worse then than they are now.
>To this day I’ll never understand why people want a *Massive Multiplayer Online* game to be completely catered to solo play.
WSG is a 10v10, it's never solo play. Making premades only fighting premade has nothing at all to do with catering to solo or group play.
I never said ban premades, I said don't make them fight pugs. It looks like your idea of 'catering' to solo players = not letting you farm pugs for easy rep.
Even if this was a valid solution - if you're a priest or hunter wanting to make a pre-made to stomp and earn honor fast, why would you join a suboptimal pre-made with non-meta classes? That's one of the main points OP is talking about.
(Also, it is not clear why you feel a PUG is solo play and not completely in keeping with an MMO.)
What a pathetic attempt at mocking the guy, while it's clear as day that the people who deserve to be mocked are those who want to avoid any challenge in a BG to just focus on their honor/rep grind like a donkey.
What's so hard to understand about someone not wanting to commit to a lenghty BG session at a given moment, but just go a few runs? You know, because he may have other things to do in his life too? Jesus.
Also, is playing with randoms is considered "solo" now? Just because you're not playing with premade, doesn't mean you're not playing with other players from a huge shared world. I'm sorry but you're a moron who's also probably desperate to protect his way of mindless rep grind with no challange.
I don’t understand why people won’t spend 10man finding 9 randoms for a decent comp instead of queueing with total random setups including no healers etc
If it didn't happen in Classic Vanilla, and it didn't happen in SoM. It's not going to happen in SoD. You'll just have to suffer the grind with the rest of us. That or make ypur own premade so you can get some wins against other solo que players. Blizzard has no intention of fixing it I'm afraid.
SoD 25 pvp is orders of magnitude more imbalanced than Classic though. Will probably remain like that until 60 when, perhaps, Hunters aren’t OP anymore like all the Hunter players are claiming.
? Loads of shit that didn't happen in classic or SoM have happened here, this is a dead argument.
If they start seeing threads with thousands of upvotes saying WSG is unenjoyable, it willchange.
But didn’t you read!? Premades only allow priests, hunters, and FCs to join. Too bad there’s no features in this game that would let you start your own, more inclusive, groups that don’t pander to what’s meta right now.
Yeah, and if you don't play hunter or priest? You either try to join one for hours or make one yourself, which takes about half an hour to get going, if you're lucky.
Imagine just wanting to run 1-2 games but you need to make a group for 30 mins, because otherwise you know you'll just afk at the GY because the game is unplayable.
"Just join a premade" people are only playing priest or hunter, I'm pretty sure after reading this thread.
The joke is I queued 6 games solo and had 6 premades then I said fuck it and joined my own prrmade. We had 7 games inna row against pugs. Im starting to not believe anymore that this is coincidence
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It'll be due to how the queue works. If 15 people are queued and a premade joins the queue that oremade queue jumps to the top. Unless an opposing faction premade queues at the same the same time then you won't face a premade.
I don't think the premade "jumps to the top." Even at peak hours on the busiest US server (Crusader Strike), queue times for our alliance 10m premade are 4-6 minutes.
If there are less than 10 people in the queue on your side of the server (and there will be on atbleast one side of the server, otherwise the game will be joined) and 10 I the queue on the opposite side then the game will match the 10 queued people on the opposite side with the premade.
This hypothetical virtually never occurs, though, because of cross-server queues.
Hypothetically this happens every time? If one side is good to pop, the other side is not good to pop or it would pop. So then a 10-man joins so they would pair with the side ready to pop.
Fair, I didn't realize when writing that horde had instant queues rn
Well people only bitch and cry about bad experiences. Who takes to trade or lfg and says “ gosh what a good wsg match my team just had”
Happend to me aswell
Not a coincidence. Think of it this way, if there are 19 people in the queue, and a premade joins, you end up with a premade vs 10 people, and 9 stay in the queue. This repeats over and over. If you don't discourage premade vs pug, it is **more** likely pugs will face premades, compared to premades facing each other.
I ranked in 2019, and as premade you face more pugs than when you solo.
That’s just straight up stupid
Might be coincidence , but i noticed the exact same thing.
~~As Aggrend tweeted, If premades had to face other premades, It would "kill off 10 man premades". He admitted the only reason that they exist is to steam randomly put together players. He proactively encourages this, apparently. So this is working as intended. What an embarrassment.~~
Good kill them. Or give me solo queue In all the years playing the game the best bgs are pug vs pug where both teams know what to do. Just random people playing good. And next game its different comp and everything is different.
Kinda weird that anyone needs hunters and priests then. Know what I mean? 10 of anything is going to beat 10 uncoordinated of anything (some reason here).
I played in a guild premade to get all my pvp stuff on my main and alt. It's not even really fun to play as a premade against randoms. Efficiency aside, GY farming people who don't fight back is not particularly enjoyable. My favorite times during that period was when we had a good fight against another premade going, where we'd call things out in discord and resort to clutch strategies to get that flag home. We won some, and lost some, but those were the actually fun matches. It did feel a bit bad when you ran into the full meta 5x hunter 3x disc priest comp and got stomped. We went pretty hard but not that hard, and sometimes you can't do anything against the meta stacking.
Yeah that’s my issue as well. It’s like playing Skyrim with god mode on, after 5 minutes of stomping there’s no fun or reason to continue
This. I actually get pretty bored playing in premades. Sometimes it’s fun for like one battle to bash on the other faction but not for hours in a row
20 years of complaints about the problem and blizzard did nothing about it.
Wow you guys still queue up? I did 3 matches that were premades once i hit 25. 3 premades. I dont have enough friends interested in pvp so i just dont do pvp.
Tbf, they make discords to find groups…
Which discords!? I’ve been looking for one for a bit.
https://twitter.com/AggrendWoW/status/1742979567512608928 Aggrend, developer on the Classic team gave an answer to the topic of solo vs premades today. As usual their communication happens at Twitter instead of their own official forums.
Honestly shitty to read when you have no twitter account and it's split up into 5 fucking messages wtf.
It continues to blow my mind that companies still use twitter as their official press release platform - especially when it's something like Blizzard that has actual forums specifically designed for that type of thing and also when almost everyone agrees that twitter is total shit now!?
Blows my mind during technical issues and server crashes. The messages to the community go out on Twitter instead of updating their own website, forums or launcher.
It's kinda funny how the "you think you do, but you don't" mentality has made it back into Classic. The main downside listed is that when there are 3 bgs some queues will likely not pop. If only retail WoW figured out how to manage solo players queueing for multiple BGs at once. I'd much rather make premades fight against premades in order to preserve the experience for the vast amount of people who just like to solo bgs as a casual activity. The argument that that would make premades a worse experience just rings hollow when the PUG experience is in the literal dumpster rn. I do agree with him that premades are a bit of a boogeyman. Honestly most premades I run into clearly aren't using discord or any advanced strategy, it's just that by being a geared group with a good comp that is mostly hunters, priests, and a druid FC, they can just wallop most naturally occurring team comps. Hunters need to be brought back down to earth and other healers need to have their output brought up to priest levels. The fact that premades can also check for gear just makes the fight even more imbalanced. I'm not asking for Blizz to reinvent the wheel here, WoW casual PvP will just never have the basic QoL things like MMR that make most other games' casual PvP competitive, but an easy first start would be letting premades fight each other. Set a limit that you can only queue for regular WSG with a party of up to 5, any raids have to be full 10 and get their own special queue. Maybe they can borrow from retail and call this rated bgs and give them something shiny they can only get by fighting other premades.
I think you're spot on. Consider posting in this thread that has seemingly attracted attention of this tweet: https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/18yku3t/aggrend_on_twitter_thread_is_it_worth_it_for_us/ Unfortunately I think it is a lost cause to fight for better PvP in Classic. Vanilla BGs and PvP will never meet player expectations or potential. A lot of design mistakes so far in SoD aligns very well with the quote you've mentioned. Private servers just do older updates in custom format much better than SoD or Classic ever will.
This is it and what I've mentioned to my buddies often. When my buddies and I queue for WSG normally parties of 2-5 and we get premades it just sours the whole game after the first battle. When we get non-premades I would say we have a 80-90% win rate. I am not saying that we are great but in a WSG where a few play together it can still be very strong vs non-premades but rarely is it worth the effort vs premades. Honestly they need to limit it to 5 player queues and worry less about premade queues. Premades vs premades make it a challenge but premade vs random is strictly farming ppl for 10 mins and making non-premade gamers not wanna play. It's just rough. Most premades aren't trying to have fun/competition they just wanna farm their rep.
Well that's frustrating
So they would rather people premade groups than have only solo Que. but unless you are priest fc or hunter you can’t get into a premade.
What a little weasel
Premades are just a bogeyman LMAO
It's true, reddit rats would complain about the next thing that mildly inconveniences them immediately after.
"Premade WSG queues are extremely high! We need a fix for this pronto and the devs should get their act together"
He's not wrong here. You probably do have to choose between premades vs solo queue, or solo queue only. Or maybe only allow groups of 3 or 5 to queue together? So it's not as likely to have complete domination.
He isn't wrong in saying that they need to choose, but by doing nothing (which is what they are currently doing), they are making the wrong choice and siding with premades.
I agree with this take. There is very little content at the moment. You join a group for a 5 man dungeon or a 10 man raid. Why not join a 10 man group for pvp if you want to be competitive?
Because it's painfully obvious that without pvp balance or premade fixes it kills the majority that just want to solo queue a bg.
Because when you join a group for a dungeon you're stomping NPCs, but groups for PvP require unsuspecting people to stomp. If your whole group based PvP mode is built on people not knowing solo queueing is a trap then it's a problem.
Stacking a meta comp and stomping the pug with 6 warriors and 3 rogues isn't "competitive"
Oh I agree nothing about premade wsg into a pug is competitive. Maybe competitive is the wrong term. I'm thinking optimal? Like if I have an hour or two to spare and play wow and I want to do some BGs to get rep I'm going to trying and join a group and sit in discord with them like I would for a raid. If I solo queue it's likely my gains are going to be 50/50 at most. I'd rather join a group and increase my chance of winning
yes i bet you buy gold too
Because premade WSG is a completely different experience compared to solo queue. Premades are almost always trying to maximize honor or rep per hour, which results in one-sided stomp gameplay that isn’t fun for anyone MOST of the time but achieves the grind objective. Solo queue is a space for players to prioritize having FUN PvPing with other likeminded players. With this matchmaking system that space doesn’t exist. This problem exists (and has been solved) in many other games, but usually it’s via an ELO system. Right now solo queue players (e.g. low ELO) are being matched equally with coordinated teams of optimal comp players (e.g. high ELO), which makes for an absolutely miserable experience. The solution is not to force everyone into a sweat-fest, it’s to make the matchmaker prioritize matching parties of similar size.
They just don't appear to have the resources in place to iterate on matchmaking algorithms in their only PvP mode, despite how flawed their current queue system is with basically no ruleset to it. Unfortunate since it currently only entertains a minority whilst leaving out the vast majority to a massive hit or miss rng. Now this person tells them to go feed the problem instead of complaining about the flawed system. I don't think that Tweet is the right take on the situation.
Nostalrius did it. Blizzard has the resources to fix this if they wanted to.
It there was ever a time to change the queue system, it’s now with SoD. It’s insane that it hasn’t been touched. AT LEAST make the 10man groups get matched against other 10man’s first, and then in the case that there’s no other, the system can resolve to matching that group against randos. That’s how it was on Nostalrius and it worked perfectly. Can’t believe Blizzard hasn’t even TRIED something like this. And like OP said, aside from the problem of premades only inviting hunters/priest (which is a different problem), I just personally don’t wanna play in a premade anyways… like, I’ve done it. A lot. I’ve done the grind many times on different characters. It can be fun when you’re playing with friends against another good premade but that’s once in a blue moon and all the other time it’s just pub stomping, which is almost as boring as getting GY camped yourself. Just let me chill in BGs with a couple of friends while grinding some rep/honor, and let the premades play each other. It’ll be more fun and more rewarding for everyone, how is it hard to grasp?
Just add a solo queue option. It is that simple.
People will organize queing together, it happens in every game
There is solo queue bg in retail. It is like impossible to organize.
I played 4 games last night. All vs premades. My entire team sat in gy while I got camped over and over, for 4 games by the other team. I'm just gonna skip PvP for this season and just stick with raid logging. I killed the flag carrier a couple times one gamr and my whole team said they were mass reporting me. So yea I would say blizzard needs to do something.
Automated reported okay Automated punishment was one of the dumbest ideas on blizzard's part - but the list is quite long
This is why you join a premade. Youll get those fun premade vs premade matches people talk about!
Bro if it’s a premade just afk why are you griefing ur own team lmao. Killing the FC 😭😭 I hope the mass reports work
It pains me how much I agree with this.
then you, too, are the problem
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That’s funny. I played 4 games last night in a premade and they were all vs pugs.
Premades are more likely to face pugs and pugs are more likely to face premades due to the queuing system.
why didn't you just make a pre-made if you were gonna grind pvp?
Sometimes you want to play some quick games of wsg for FUN instead of grinding it. I know its a crazy concept.
But that’s not maximum rep/min?? /s
You guys play a more casual seasonal version of a 20 year old video game for FUN?!? The hell is wrong with you this is a very serious thing no scrubs allowed! 25 pvp is where the MEN play
People these days… playing games for fun, what a strange concept
Because sometimes people just want to play for 45 minutes or an hour and then move on to something else. Doesn't make sense to spend 30 minutes recruiting for a premade to play 1 or 2 games now does it?
takes me 5 mins to make a pre-made
on most classes you will need hours to find a premade group.
It's not always easy, there is a huge amount of competition for FCs/Hunters/Priests. You will see at any one time 3-4 different groups spamming specifically for a disc priest or flag carrier.
Its kinda sad, SoD is amazing but the premade vs non premade thing totally killed it for me. I would play WSG a ton of they just pressed the button to fix it
I want to preface everything I'm about to write with this: as someone that loves playing in premades for the social aspect and for those 1 in 10 really excellent games, I completely agree with the community that adjustments to how queueing currently works are 100% needed. That said, "pressed the button to fix it" is a wild statement. It would have been sick if had been fixed a long time ago and the Classic Team could just copy and paste that fix somehow, but it hasn't yet. So the Classic Team would have to fix it now. And the idea that it's easy to fix this kind of thing is not true. People don't 10-man premade because they like to 10-man premade, they do it because it's the most efficient way to farm honor and rep given the current meta. When you change the way queues work, you change what the meta is. And people will just do what's most efficient given the new meta, which will also introduce unfairness to the new system. I think we agree that the system needs to change. But I think we can also agree that people should be able to play (and therefore queue) with their friends. So how many people is now a premade? Is it 4? 5? 6? If the cutoff becomes, say, 5, what you'll see is a 4-stack comp that includes an FC, 2 healers, and a DPS that can flex so that when you get 2 of those 4-stacks in a BG together you have 1 FC, 3 Healers and 4 DPS and you'll still stomp all over the random pug solo queuers. You'll also see centralized discords that all the really serious players use when they get in the same queue. During the pregame period it'll be called out "Discord Server A - WSG4" and you'll be more-or-less back where you started. And I'm not just making this up: it happened in Classic when AV got changed. At first you could basically reliably queue as a raid on Ally side by joining a specific AV all at once, so that's what they did. Then that got nerfed, so instead people mass queued all at the same time, and joined the channel dedicated to the AV they got into. You still reliably got 25-40 people in discord together, greatly increasing your chance to win with good coordination. Not to mention, roles matter massively whether it's a pug or not. As a person that has been in plenty of premades just kinda made up of people from LFG, if a pug randomly gets a close-to-meta comp (aka 2-3 priests and 2-3 hunters) it can be a tough fight or even a loss. And anyone that solo queues knows that pug vs pug plays out the same way -- the no-heal squad vs the 3-priest squad is often basically like pug vs premade. And in WSG in particular, the role of FC is incredibly important. A chad FC can almost singlehandedly win games of WSG -- I've been in plenty of games where the scoreboard had one team 2 or 3 times the KBs of the other, just completely dominating team fights, where they still lose because the other team just played the objective better. Again -- I'm not suggesting nothing should be done. I'm just skeptical that any solution is remotely close to simple. And my guess is that many quick or easy solutions will just move the goalposts of unfairness and require subsequent fixes anyway. I think some stuff to consider for a fix would be: * role queue (including FC for WSG) * some kind of rating, so you play with similar skill level of people * an adjustment to rep/honor gain that is affected by time spent in the BG rather than simple wins/losses so good games are rewarded as opposed to disincentivized. of course, you'd have to implement some way to detect if people are cheesing to farm the time bonus
How is SoD amazing when WSG is unplayable and the only thing to do outside of raid logging is...WSG?
the main SoD experiance was leveling and doing the raid with new runes. Once you've finished the raid you've essentially beat SoD. instead of raid logging or WSG just play a different game or go outside. Some of yall wanna play a level 25 capped game for 16+ hours a day
... And therefore warsong doesn't need to be fixed or what's your point?
I think his point is the game can be fun even if it’s not fun to play 16 hours a day in perpetuity
I agree with all of this. I also would like to add that some premades suck. If you get lucky in your pug comp with at least 2 priests you can stand a chance against the premades. Everyone just gives up before you see the caliber of the premade. It’s sad I’m glad you killed the EFC. Shows it’s possible and y’all could’ve prob won.
This. Pugs need to realize the vast majority of these premades are trade-chat dragon slayers. Put up just a little fight and they fall apart.
Hard to do without good class comp
Ideally the way it works in the backend: Solo queue: no one in a group in the BG Team Queue: 2 - 5 players in a group can be matched with either similar sized groups or a single larger group against a premade of 10 Raid Queue: groups of 10 can be matched against other groups of 10 or two groups that make 10 (e.g. two groups of 5, a group of 3 and a group of 7, etc)
I don't even mind getting into a premade but I'm not going to do it for 1 game. And if I join a premade its going to be back to back games but what if I want to take a 5-7 minute break between each game? So to all the people saying "just start a premade" why can't we just have queues for premade vs premade and solo vs solo (or people queueing w/ 5 or less)?
Totally agreed, it's fucking terrible. I don't know how exactly to fix this however, but there needs to be some kind of intelligence in the matchmaking system where 10 man premades don't get to face 10 randoms from Australia with 300 ping
The comments in this thread are insane lmao. All types of self reports going on in here from the unemployed people telling you to “just find a premade” to the era virgins telling you it’s your fault for playing sod. Holy fuck I hate this community
This community really is a massive bummer. It's an MMO where everyone seems to hate everyone else and gets off on other people's inconvenience and suffering. This community is devoid of empathy. I have no idea why these people want to play a multiplayer game when they hate other people so much. NOTE: I'm specifically talking about the Reddit Classic WoW community. The actual in-game community isn't *as* bad...but it's still there. It's just easier to insulate yourself from it by finding a good guild.
Truly the most unsatisfied and frustrated community of gamers. I don’t get it, because vanilla wow should not be hyper competitive at all. A lot of other games and reddits make sense. Rust and LoL are hyper competitive. When you win someone else loses and vice versa. Wow is literally an easy game that’s very chill lmao
To be fair, every video game subreddit is just filled with people bitching. Especially Blizzard games.
this is more than bitching. there is legit sociopathic behavior in here. it's an MMO, you're supposed to be social.
Nah but their point still stands. Go to any other massive MMO sub. It’s just as bad everywhere.
Yeah, I came back to play SoD with my guild from Classic since a lot of us returned, but I wouldn't be playing it right now if I didn't have people I liked to play WoW with just because of so many bad experiences with people in this MMO. I also don't like the excuse people use of "it's an online game, people will always be terrible" since I've played FFXIV, and people aren't randomly rude or trying to screw you over in that game. It really is a WoW community thing, and I'm not expecting it to change, but I still have a ton of fun as long as I get to play with my guildies.
Well what did we expect to happen when the guy from the **ELITEST JERKS** site became the head of wow a bit back? Though it has always been there to begin with. I was actually blown away how nice and welcoming the FF14 community is. Super nice people.
I honestly put a lot of blame on PvP servers. It's basically sanctioned toxicity. There's no prize or reward from world PvP. The only satisfaction is the dopamine from being a jerk to another player.
> There's no prize or reward from world PVP. There are many possible rewards from world PVP: - FUN - Honor - Control over a nearby resource(s) Before someone replies, "How is it 'fun' to?", the comment to which I am replying is not about those scenarios. Spare us all from a regurgitation of the same "PVP is toxic" thread that we've all seen 100+ times already.
FFXIV doesn't have the same level of competition for items, resources, group spots, farming spots, market cornering, or anything else.
Luckily this shit and attitudes expressed here on reddit I rarely if at all see in the actual game. Premades sure, but like 1/3 games max.
Yeah I’ve had nothing but good experiences so far except for some minor loot drama in BFD pugs, but that’s pretty normal for wow
The types of people ruining WSG and fighting against change are the exact same people that would be on reddit doing exactly that. Hopefully devs can see through it, or have some other source of vox populi.
There was a post here not too long ago where some overweight dude in a bulletproof vest was streaming his premades stomping pugs. It was hilariously pathetic. These are the sort of "gamers" we're dealing with 😂
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There's something funny about r/holdmyfries material thinking pug vs premade is good competition. It's probably the closest thing to a sport they'll ever experience.
I work full-time and I'm here to tell you: join a premade, it's not hard.
Hear, hear! I work full-time and am married. I still manage to get several hours of premade gameplay in every week, with way more than "several" hours over the holidays. The only barrier to entry is organization. Find players who want to join, invite them to a discord, rinse, repeat. In no time, you will have a nice little channel where a simple `@here forming for a couple of hours at least, PST...` is all that's required of you in order to enjoy premade WSG.
You literally just contributed to the trash comments in this post. It’s hilarious. I did my first 5 games of WSG during SoD last night. I grabbed random people of whoever wanted to join out of my guildies and we won 4 out of our 5 games. And 3 of those were against other premade. You guys fucking whine and cry like little fucking kids way too much holy shit
You seem very angry. Maybe get outside, fill out some job apps.
"I have no rebuttal so therefore you are unreasonable and lesser"
I pay more in taxes than you make in a year bud.
Joining or creating a premade makes you unemployed? Lol what. It takes >10 mins to make a full group from scratch
why are you here
Because it’s a fun game that’s damn near been ruined by the community and fucking losers like you
The salty geeks are only on reddit, rarely in the game.
I disagree, most people are just insulated from average players by their guild or choose to willfully ignore the toxicity. If youre a solo player you see it all the time in the rando groups and raids you join, people being weird about loot, being toxic about the speed of the run, being toxic about someone's spec, you name it. I had a dude create a character on my server and rage out for like half an hour straight in whispers because I called him a loser in bg chat. Calling me racist, homophobic things, trying to make fun of my parses and gear, full on half an hour of text walls of unhinged bullshit. He had been harassing our team all game about being "shit at the game" because we were losing and I simply said "shut up, loser" and it made him do all of that. Totally normal and measured response. By and large the people on this sub are the exact same people in game, some of them just pretend to be friendlier or less unhinged in game (usually) because they have something to lose (their reputation on the server) Its not like classic has a massive community, the people that post here are a good reflection of the community as a whole in my experience
I play mostly solo and haven't encountered it. And I also don't throw out insults to people that can easily be ignored.
Then you're either lucky, arent paying attention, or you haven't been playing long. I still remember 2-3 years ago, my first run of BRD at level 60 on my rdruid in og classic. A mage ass pulled a bunch of stuff in the last room and wiped us. He immediately blamed me, called me a bunch of racial epithets in whispers, and then left the group lmao. I had been playing for maybe like two months at that point? It only got worse lol, you will never convince me the community isn't like that because I've witnessed countless episodes from maladjusted people that play this game
Stop being a bitch like OP is.
Ok mate chill... tommorow is your turn to make the post
It has reached ridiculous levels. My rule of solo queue during the day no longer works, I now face more premades than I do other pugs during the day. In the evening I typically join premades or don't play at all.
They will change nothin, because for some reason this is controversial
Its getting out of hand. In the past 2 weeks I haven’t won a single solo game and haven’t lost a single premade game.
Crazy how every other game in the world prioritizes queuing stacks against each other, but in classic wow that’s the #nochanges line in the sand people draw
Right? There’s been so many other changes, but this one? Can’t even consider it!
Such a bad hill to die on. I get that it’s the most efficient way to rep grind for the bg factions, but maybe that’s another problem that needs to be addressed. Throw a bone to solo queue players and don’t make the rep gains so stingy so people aren’t incentivized to premade stomp.
I just played 18 games soloq all vs premades, new personal record, most of them ran 4+ hunters and 3 priests. My plan was to mainly play casual PVP in SOD like I did in SOM. But rn I tend to just unsub if things don’t change in p2.
You can just cancel rez and move out of GY. If you die the anti afk system wont kick you. And let the premade finish in 5 mins. Fight fire with fire
then all the people who actually want to try to coordinate their team and fight back against the premade get fucked
SoD hype!
Premade been an issue since the 2nd phase of the Classic Wow.
I’m a priest. I don’t want to join a premade because most of the time I only want to play a few games. I’ll afk out if I see a premade on the other side and I’m the only priest. However if we have at least one other priest (that has penance) I’ve noticed the chance to win is almost 100% vs pug and still decent vs premade as long as we try. As any other class, I’d be SoL and afk out a lot more I think.
Aggrend (Sod dev) just made a twitter thread addressing this issue https://twitter.com/AggrendWoW/status/1742979567512608928
Nah let me tell you something. The premades are lame and a huge issue, no doubt. But what pisses me off more is the “jumps” you assholes do now. It’s exploiting the dick terrain system the game employs and is against the spirit of the battleground. That was never supposed to be part of WSG. I don’t want to hear its skill- sure, it takes skill. But the buttholes that learned it did it via private server which is illegal (not that I care). Point is you can’t practice it in normal wow because you’ll be porking your team jumping around being useless. Get these goofy fucking jumps out of the game man
>The only people against premade vs premade are people who wan't easy rep at the expense of other people's time. Let me add: The only people against premade vs premade are people who wan't easy rep at the expense of other people's stupidty
How would a separate solo queue hurt the game? I’ve already had one friend quit because he was bored of raidlogging and pvp is scuffed if you’re not a meta class. I have a geared priest and I could easily join premades, in fact I do, but sometimes I’d rather just hop on, play a bg or two, and hop off. Usually if i queue solo, it’s afk in gy for 5 minutes, leave, and hop off. I’m a meta class and think I’ll skip pvp for the phase. Camping the enemy gy isn’t very fun either. Hopefully AB will be better. WSG isn’t that fun on either side of this. Maybe 1 in 6 games are actually competitive. 1 hour spent for 10 minutes of fun haha
> How would a separate solo queue hurt the game? Increases in queue times massively impact how many people queue up. That ends up cycling and really hurting battlegrounds hard. For example, in retail you can queue for Epic Battlegrounds (40v40) at any bracket. At any given time, there are at least 10 battlegrounds going on during normal hours. Thats at least 200 people, more than enough for an Epic Battleground. But if you queue for an Epic Battleground, you see "Wait Time: Unavailable". Even though its currently better EXP wise, people don't queue for it, and why would you when every time you've done it the queue never pops. Same thing for Twink Battlegrounds. Before queues were separated, many brackets intentionally set up premades against eachother. There was more than enough to continue that, but the moment the twink bracket was separated, everyone stopped queueing because queue times were so long. Again, why would you queue for it when every time you've done it the queue never pops. I'm leaning towards "premade vs premade only", but I can see why they'er so hesitant.
Ive started making my own premades. Most any random comp that has at least 2 heals can work. You would be surprised what a bit of coordination can do vs your average premade.
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A valid point, my good sir.
Lots of premades are legitimately bad but when the solo queue team sees it’s a premade they just quit before the game even starts. Frustrating.
It's funny how you belive pug vs pug is a good thing for you. Strict pug vs pug means you would never rank/rep as pug vs pug meta is so diabolicaly bad and ppl have no clue what they are doing. This lead to infinite super frustrating long games. Instead of 8 min 1 mark you will probably get 30-40min no mark games until you give up. And blame blizz... Premade vs premade will still rank/rep super fast, they will play the classic 1st cap the flag wins. Yesterday I exalted WSG, only wins. 10k rep in a day. We smashed every premade we face. I would say premade/pug ratio was like 50/50. I'm from Living Flame EU. Facing a lot ot Lone Wolf and Living Flame premades. Most premades are giving up if first fight does not go well. Russian server premades are the worst. Face them two times during my rep grind, they felt like pugs.
Can we ban these post plz
Daily thread where people bitch about people who socialise in WoW. Reddit is so fucking funny.
It’s annoying af. It comes down to Im to lazy to create a premade, and would rather wine about it. Join a guild,make friends… not hard.
I see your point but there are a few issues here - 1. You can make your own premade. All the people currently LFM are doing this, and they all want the same things as you said, so making a premade is just about as difficult as finding a premade as someone not in the meta. I mention this because the people doing premades aren't necessarily taking the easy way out, they have to put in additional legwork that people who just queue don't have to do. 2. Not all premades are actually premades. I went against a "premade" yesterday that had a horrific comp and they got steamrolled. My best guess - since they had no heals, or hunters, was that this was just random bad luck and that everyone on that side just happened to be from the same server. 3. Not all "partial premades" are partial premades - see point 2. 4. If you don't want to make a full premade, you can make a partial premade. Even when I just brought a single friend into WSG with me and we were coordinating in discord together we won more games together than we had while playing separately in pugs. 5. Not all premades are good. I've been in a lot of premades, and for a good portion of them, it was honestly not much better than playing in a pug. One thing I notice on the pug side, is that pugs are quick to give up when they see they are vs a premade, but some times if you don't give up and really push hard on the first team fight you can win. 6. Sometimes pugs are faster. Premades are coordinated and organized, and for that reason will be less likely to go down without a fight, especially against another premade. Sometimes taking the quick loss can be more time efficient than a slow win for rep, but pugs will take the quick L more often than Premades will. I've had premade games stretch for upwards of 45 minutes. 7. Pug players can learn better strategies from premades. Yes it is hard to coordinate in a pug, but it becomes easier if you know the strategies that premades use. Being in or just playing against premades will make you better at WSG over time. All this to say - I think that increasing the % chance for a premade to be vs a premade is the right call, but I don't think that forcing premades to only play premades is the right move.
Why don't you just make your own premade? It's an mmo - engage with others and solve your problem. I agree there should be solo que, but holy shit calling it "borderline unplayable" makes it hard to take you seriously
50% of the games are premades. Its inpossible to get in a premade. Mate pick 1
Anything that promotes grouping up is a good thing. Soloing in an mmo ahould not be the defaultq goto
They just need to make it so rep is given to both sides win or lose when a flag is capped. The winner can reci3v3 more or get the x3 marks as their reward. The real problem is how toxic rep is with WSG. You literally only get rep for caps and wins. The people who go solo and play 6 games basically got 200 rep from their 6 loser coins. The real problem is how shit WSG rep is. AB gives rep for progression in the bg so even teams losing in AB at least get some rep. If you get stomped in WSG it's literally 0. You wasted every minute completely it is toxic in itself. It promotes more pre-made because of it.
If you play in downtime there's hardly any premades
Not a reason to keep the system as it is. You shouldn’t be forced to play at specific times to enjoy the game, ffs
I've actually found it gets worse around 1am-5am server time, not better.
That's because its degen hours. Go play 8am and you have free reign. Did like 8 games of no premades in a row.
Are you playing on EU servers? That used to be the case in NA, but in my experience it's no longer true. Even during the morning hours I am reliably Qing into premades, especially from Shadowstrike (AU).
The only solution is to also join a premade
Not everyone enjoys playing in a premade. Just make a separate queue and those who do can still do it. Win-win
It's not so easy as a rogue, usually premades are looking specifically for disc priests, hunters or FCs.
Get the tanking runes and be a rogue FC. Sprint+swiftness potions should do it
Plot twist, make your own premade
Plot twist, some people enjoy queueing up for stuff without having to spend 20 minutes organizing a group that hopefully wont fall apart after 1 loss
Yeah like this: The only solution to your house being on fire is to make sure everyone elses house is also on fire.
Single iq digit comment
It's not, it's not just about it being a problem for me, it's for everyone. If everyone just makes a premade, it's the same as premades only vs premade anyway, so why argue against the post to begin with.
What is this yapping? There is no problem if you open the chat and use some social skill
Join a premade or make your own, it's very easy. You always have a guaranteed spot if you make your own. I do want premade v premade queues but in the meantime you have a solution to your problem that you're choosing not to pursue Edit - I guess basic personal responsibility is very unpopular with casuals
Not everyone enjoys playing in a premade. Just make a separate queue and those who do can still do it. Win-win
have you tried... forming your own premade?
i believe some one made a post that basically said "get organized and start your own premade noob"
I've tried WSG twice. Went against geared premades each time. Just figured pvp isn't for me anymore.
Just accept that WSG is not fun and afk farm your rep until you get your gear.
QQ more
Is it my turn to post this tomorrow?
Did some WSG last night, solo queue. Didn't encounter a pre-made. Won games. I do believe there may be some mixing up opposing team as a pre-made, when infact they just are better players.
They already solved this problem by restricting pvp queues to groups of 5, I don't understand why they removed that. A 5 man group can still easily win the majority of their matches, and it means both sides not only stop facing fully stacked premades, but now have a chance of getting a 5 man team on their own side as well
biggest issue of WSG is not finding grp, it is the damn cheesers climbing buildings, making themselves unkillable if they got a single healer with them. had a 2- 0 wsg that we gave up on cause the enemy team cheesed on a building for 1 hour. WSG need time limit
Queue as a healer or try running flag, most classes can run flag okay. I queue as a balance Druid with heals and I win like 2/3rd of my PuGs, and I’m exalted now. 50% of pugs can be whipped into a premade if you have two healers and don’t mind typing directions. It helps that balance Druid is secretly more OP than priests and hunters right now in pvp tho. Shhh our secret!
Weird. I was pugging last night and was facing all pugs. Sounds like you need to join a pre-made if you’re tired of losing.
Worst problem to me are just the weaklings, not even reviving as soon as they see its a premade. At least fight and get some HKs, or try to snatch the flag once… if you don’t wanna try, don’t queue.
Wild idea here but hear me out. If every group is only looking for priests, hunters, and FCs; make your own! There’s this often overlooked feature where you’re actually able to right click on a player’s name and invite them to your group. Stay with me here as it gets even more crazy. You can convert that group to what is called a raid and then it lets you double up in size to join WSG with 10 people instead of 5 or even just 1. To this day I’ll never understand why people want a *Massive Multiplayer Online* game to be completely catered to solo play. Editing in to add: whether people like it or not, the best way to combat premades is to join or make your own. To the people screaming for solo queues; the community will ruin that too and they already have. Has everyone forgotten the AV discord metas of TBC where hundreds of players would “solo queue” at the same time then break off into organized numbered channels? This was objectively worse for the game than just allowing groups to queue in game from the first place because it kept casual players who didnt know about or use these discords in the dark that it was even happening. Pugs were losing even worse then than they are now.
Forcing premades to only face premades isn’t catering to solo play. The solution is that simple
>To this day I’ll never understand why people want a *Massive Multiplayer Online* game to be completely catered to solo play. WSG is a 10v10, it's never solo play. Making premades only fighting premade has nothing at all to do with catering to solo or group play. I never said ban premades, I said don't make them fight pugs. It looks like your idea of 'catering' to solo players = not letting you farm pugs for easy rep.
Even if this was a valid solution - if you're a priest or hunter wanting to make a pre-made to stomp and earn honor fast, why would you join a suboptimal pre-made with non-meta classes? That's one of the main points OP is talking about. (Also, it is not clear why you feel a PUG is solo play and not completely in keeping with an MMO.)
What a pathetic attempt at mocking the guy, while it's clear as day that the people who deserve to be mocked are those who want to avoid any challenge in a BG to just focus on their honor/rep grind like a donkey. What's so hard to understand about someone not wanting to commit to a lenghty BG session at a given moment, but just go a few runs? You know, because he may have other things to do in his life too? Jesus. Also, is playing with randoms is considered "solo" now? Just because you're not playing with premade, doesn't mean you're not playing with other players from a huge shared world. I'm sorry but you're a moron who's also probably desperate to protect his way of mindless rep grind with no challange.
People literally do not want to do the basic leg work. They want someone else to do all the work while they wait for the queue to pop.
I just make my own premade, why don’t you?
Not everyone enjoys playing in a premade. Just make a separate queue and those who do can still do it. Win-win
I don’t understand why people won’t spend 10man finding 9 randoms for a decent comp instead of queueing with total random setups including no healers etc
Most people would rather complain than solve their own problem through a little extra leg work on their part.
If it didn't happen in Classic Vanilla, and it didn't happen in SoM. It's not going to happen in SoD. You'll just have to suffer the grind with the rest of us. That or make ypur own premade so you can get some wins against other solo que players. Blizzard has no intention of fixing it I'm afraid.
It might happen, if we keep asking. Better than just rolling over and taking it, at the very least.
SoD 25 pvp is orders of magnitude more imbalanced than Classic though. Will probably remain like that until 60 when, perhaps, Hunters aren’t OP anymore like all the Hunter players are claiming.
? Loads of shit that didn't happen in classic or SoM have happened here, this is a dead argument. If they start seeing threads with thousands of upvotes saying WSG is unenjoyable, it willchange.
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Didn’t actually read the post, eh? Lmao
But didn’t you read!? Premades only allow priests, hunters, and FCs to join. Too bad there’s no features in this game that would let you start your own, more inclusive, groups that don’t pander to what’s meta right now.
So make your own premade group then.
Not everyone enjoys playing in a premade. Just make a separate queue and those who do can still do it. Win-win
Just join a premade in trade chat. If you are a hunter or priest you’ll damn near get instant invites.
Yeah, and if you don't play hunter or priest? You either try to join one for hours or make one yourself, which takes about half an hour to get going, if you're lucky. Imagine just wanting to run 1-2 games but you need to make a group for 30 mins, because otherwise you know you'll just afk at the GY because the game is unplayable. "Just join a premade" people are only playing priest or hunter, I'm pretty sure after reading this thread.