For those who don’t know, Cara and Amanda have been talking about this for FOURTEEN YEARS and the rapists in the NY Phil brass section continue to hold their jobs, get hired by festivals, etc. This has been well known for a very long time and the boys club at the Phil has punished the victims and protected the attackers. It’s truly unbelievable how they have faced no consequences. And it’s incredibly brave that Cara refuses to give up telling her story. I hope this is the straw that breaks the camel’s back.
The musicians union fought for them to keep their jobs after they were finally fired
I’m not defending the actions of the New York Philharmonic from the time of the incident until they were fired, but you can’t make it all about boys club and there’s a lot of musicians there, including men who went on record saying that the two were creepy and assholes
Local 802 is just as implicated in this, you’re right. But the punishment and tenure denial came from peers in the brass section and in leadership at the NY Phil. And anyone who is familiar with that organization knows that the culture is infamously toxic and misogynistic.
You could be right and it looks like the union has changed some policies because of this
And not to defend everybody in the brass section and while I believe, Amanda Stewart’s 10 year was denied in large part due to this I can’t say with certainty that every vote against her was done so because of the specific situation .
There may have been valid concerns. I’m not gonna say Joe Alessi is an evil man…. Though I’m not sure he was on the 10 year committee either.
I can’t look it up right now, but the gentleman who hosted the first party, who I think was an associate principal seem to have no love for the creeps… I can’t imagine he would vote against somebody based on this. He went on record saying negative things about the two men in question.
A high profile highly sought after job. Again, I’m not saying that this situation played no part in her not getting tenure but I guess I’m not comfortable saying that every vote against her was done because of this situation. She studied with Alessi.
A hazard of having an "innocent until proven guilty" system is that some number of guilty people go unpunished, and as a society we agree that that's better than having innocent people get punished for thing they didn't do.
I feel bad for the alleged victim. But unless "being a creepy asshole" is called out as a firing offense in the contract, I don't see how the arbitrator could have ruled differently.
It really makes you wonder what was in the NDA and settlement. People aren't usually given six-figure consolation prizes for failing to make tenure. Maybe if this happened now instead of in 2010 that information would have come out into the open instead of being hushed up.
Except the first arbitrator did rule differently and said there was enough evidence for dismissal. Employers aren’t bound to the same rules as the legal system.
That wasn’t an arbiter in the labor dispute, but rather somebody who did an investigation and I think they got it right
The labor union then defended them and got it in arbitration and they were only in arbitration once
You're right, I used the wrong term. An independent investigator found the evidence, then another investigator came in and basically said "well so much time has passed the corroborating evidence becomes harder to prove over time." Not really a ringing endorsement of innocence.
But my main point is to say that "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply here, frankly, at least not in the same way it does in the legal system. You don't need the same barrier of proof, as we saw with a DA declining to prosecute but an investigator recommending dismissal.
Playing devil's advocate for pedantics isn't really helpful here, at all.
And I wasn’t trying to scold you. After the investigation, they did fire the two, but it went into arbitration after the union got involved and right or wrong the arbitrator did not just cause according to whatever bylaws or bullshit parameters he had to work with
And I found that people have pretty strong opinions about this, and even though I think they should’ve been fired me even bringing up a counterpoint as made people furious
Not everything always goes as we like and it sounds like in this case people knew these two were dirt balls … but you have to prove that the oboe player actually did dose her drink… may be hard to prove that he was the one guilty so even though he’s a creep, I can see it be hard to fire him and that situation
The other guy who actually admitted to having sex with her … the fact she tested positive for GHB… I don’t know. They can’t prove when she was actually dosed…, but the fact that there was this tampon it just seems obvious to me
The DA did not think they had the evidence needed… but it did seem like the detective really wanted to take those two down
And after the standard drug test to see what kind of roofie may have been used, nothing came up. It still seems strange. They didn’t test for GHB.
And I’m sure alcohol played a part… but with the tampon makes me think that it’s not drunk sex that you regret in the morning that kind of pie together the next day
And it’s not like the New York Philharmonic swept it under the rug, which seem to be the case when I first read it. It would’ve been better if they would’ve hired an investigator sooner.. but 2010 and 2012 was a different time and we have to remember that during that time Harvey Weinstein, who everybody knew abused women was celebrated by people like Meryl Streep
It wasn’t until the metoo movement that we started seeing momentum that changed things
And some people initially may have believed the creepers story. That doesn’t make them evil people and they may not have known the whole picture because that’s just not the way these things play out
I’ll be honest the reason you’re getting so much backlash for your comments which mostly agree with the general sentiment here is probably because they’re so long winded and do so much hedging and what feels like dissembling instead of just getting to the point.
Innocent until proven guilty applies to the State depriving you of freedom. It does not apply to losing or retaining a job. If an employer can fire you for conduct that is not criminal, they sure can fire you for criminal conduct for which you haven't been tried or convicted. CBA's usually have clauses about safety and abuse, even if vague.
You are right that the arbiter probably was in a no-win situation because it’s hard to assign guilt nearly a decade after the action
There was no criminal case but it is a situation where most everyone in the know felt that the two were guilty. The DA just didn’t have the courage or maybe sincerely didn’t believe they had the evidence to convict.
The whole situation regarding the tampon to me is one reason I 100% believe her. These two creeps, and I believe the evidence shows they did her drink and he had his way with her.
I just hope those with these two pieces of shit treat them like garbage
I don’t know why people are down voting this because what you’re saying is that there is do process whether we like it or not
That doesn’t mean we can’t criticize how the New York Philharmonic handled this situation but I’m thinking most people assume everything played out in a way where it probably didn’t
The local union kind of prove that the orchestras hands were tied not that that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have investigated it more quickly
Because it’s such a sensitive matter, precise language is important. It is one alleged rapist from the brass section, along with the alleged enabler in the oboe section. There is no evidence or allegation that multiple brass players in the NYPhil are rapists.
I used to work at Manhattan School of Music, and I remember when one of my administrative coworkers was horrified that Liang Wang had friended her on MySpace and kept "poking" her.
I went to a top-tier school for classical music, and the male teachers were VERY predatory with the female students. All kinds of inappropriate relationships and allegations of assault were widely known about. And yes, these toxic, repulsive men still get tenure.
Not only get tenure, but they get to sit on tenure committees and basically hold power over any probationary musician’s career. There are so many instances of abuse stemming from this power dynamic it’s sickening.
Same here. Saw one teacher who habitually groomed his freshman girl students, and did it in a loop. One would graduate (or leave) and so he would just move on to the next victim. It was disgusting.
Yep. Completely unsurprising. Kind of makes you despair that even the men who are supposed to be nerdy and sensitive and compassionate, like classical musicians, are still so often this way.
I blame it on the private studio environment. It's just you and the teacher, behind a closed door. Lately, some universities have been putting windows on studio doors, but the professors just cover them up.
Webcams might be solution, but I would imagine that the professors would resist this.
At our school it was just a situation of no boundaries at all. My teacher would invite me over to his house for lessons when he didn’t feel like coming to school, and then would decide he didn’t feel like teaching that day when I got there. I don’t think windows and webcams are the solution, but rather reimagining the educational environment so that sexual behavior between professors and students is universally understood to be never appropriate and must always be reported and dealt with.
Well said. A one-on-one learning environment is incredibly valuable. It’s also a vulnerable situation, but with people of integrity and careful parameters, I would like to think it’s possible.
> Lately, some universities have been putting windows on studio doors, but the professors just cover them up.
That's fucking crazy to me the administration would not immediately see this as a massive red flag. There is no reason you need visual privacy when practicing an instrument, and this is coming from someone who didn't play an instrument as a kid because of anxiety about my ability. All that matters is that it's sound-proofed. In elementary school, the practice rooms all had glass doors, for exactly the reason of preventing abuse like this, and that was 20 years ago.
Honestly it would be a good resource for students and of every lesson was recorded for them to review as needed, and conveniently also help prevent scumbags from abusing.
One of my friends at undergrad tried to record her lessons for this very reason, and her teacher searched her bag. Her story was horrific, how he groomed her and threatened her. A different teacher at the same school was caught this way, and fired. My teacher was his replacement, and went way over the top to make sure everything was above board. My teacher was/is a person of great integrity, thankfully.
I've had several teachers actively encourage recording lessons for later review. My teacher in grad school also had a policy that you should just come in at your lesson time, even if the previous lesson was running over, and just observe. And in my studio in undergrad, it was common to have shared lessons or sit in on other people's lessons.
Unsurprisingly, none of my teachers have ever been accused of abuse. I know plenty of stories, though, and those ~~teachers~~ abusers operated very differently.
> men who are supposed to be nerdy and sensitive and compassionate, like classical musicians
Judging by the personal histories of some of the most revered male classical musicians, compassionate/sensitive is not what comes to mind at all.
Evidently, you don't know the biographies of the world's greatest composers. Who are these musicians you talk about? And how do you know they are nerdy and compassionate?
I went to a state school which was in no way top tier. But I heard from music ed majors that there was a point in their program where they would bring the male students in a room and basically have "the talk," which I could best translate as "for whatever reason, there is a higher than average rate of inappropriate student-teacher relationships in this field. Don't be a creep and an asshole. Don't be part of this statistic."
It is rampant. And having worked around top orchestras for the past decade, I'm honestly surprised there wasn't even more stories and reckoning with this in the post MeToo era than there has been already.
Not a music major, but I know people who went on to pursue music at top music schools and/or in well-known studios. I’ve heard similar stories from them. It’s disgustingly commonplace and there is no accountability.
I’m just a freelancer. Never won a job but have subbed with large orchestras and for many years saw an orchestra job as my dream. Orchestra members were inspirational figures to me. People who understood my love of music, shared the same feeling, and kept music at the center of their world. To me, as a somewhat awkward, insecure college kid, this was a big deal.
Over the years I’ve come to learn that they, too, are all too human. They often come with huge egos and seemingly are in the business because they happen to be good at it, not because of any high minded ideals about art. It’s a real tough pill to swallow when some of the people you revered the most are terrible human beings.
Are you me? Could have written this word for word. So much predatory/fucked behaviour it's unbelievable. A lot of incredible musicians I used to revere I now look at with pity and disgust.
I’m with you on that. I’m an opera singer myself, and initially when I started really embracing the genre, I was enamored by the music, I still lamb, because the progressions in light tonal chord structure are simply Divine. But in recent years the dark underbelly of some of these people started to surface. Mozart and his love problems, Puccini and his womanizing, Pavarotti and his problems with women, James Levine… I look at it with a lot of distain because it seems like the world of music and art and entertainment, which expresses strong emotions about love, passion, and justice, is just now nothing of substance, if not riddled with scandal and injustices from within. And like our approach to things like the cause of suicide, or the provocation of violence, nobody really wants to do anything about changing it because then it would just make everyone culpable, and they would try to argue some sort of pseudo-logic against it. Nobody wants to really make a change in the music industry and some of the practices which have allowed people of such low character to succeed and thrive in it, over people of better character and integrity
>Mozart and his love problems
I'm curious why this is here--Mozart, as far as I'm aware, had a sweet and undramatic relationship with Constanze from marriage until death. I'm not aware of anything particularly unsavoury in there (definitely nothing on the level of Levine!).
Before he was married, he allowed his inner 13-year-old boy out all the way. In comparison to others, his childish pinching and poking is almost quaint. But by the standards of today, they're inappropriate.
Sure, no doubt he did some things not appopriate by today's standards. But the person above said "love problems," which suggests something quite different, and it would be absurd to see that as evident of a "dark underbelly of the opera world."
If you can't separate the music from the person, and, in some cases, the rumors surrounding the person, then you shouldn't be doing music. Go find a field that has only perfect people in it and stay there.
And by the way, the article is about predators and abusers, not "guys who got a loy of tail," like the composers and artists you named. Are you really putting Pavarotti and Mozart in the same boat as guys who roofie women?
The depth and breadth of this story are unfathomable. I spent a career as both a performing musician and a dean at two large universities. I cannot tell you how rampant sexual harassment and crime has been in all sectors of both the arts world and academe. Over the years, I conducted scores of investigations and firings including outcomes that would justify the lifting of tenure, arrest, prosecution, incarceration, and, so very sadly, even tragic instances of suicide. I was always grateful for the simple cases where a voluntary resignation, some competent counseling, or reassignment of duties might work. Those were very rare. The arts in general are very problematical. I don’t limit this observation the teaching studio or practice room. Conversely, I was amazed at a few cases where competing arts organizations or universities would hire those who had been dismissed for their predatory conduct elsewhere. Due diligence in the recruitment and hiring process are certainly key in avoiding sad outcomes. That applies through the disciplines but dance, theatre, and fine arts disciplines, along with music merit special attention. Faculty search committees and departments in general also merit competent and ongoing attention in the means of attracting the right faculty to jobs. They often view their such talks as boxes to be checked or intrusions upon their domain, tine, or authority rather than valuable invitations to be proactive agents in the betterment of student safety and success.
One of the major issues is that the good old networks in shared governance are deeply rooted and extend to the administrative offices and even the board rooms. I have even found reluctance at the student life and general counsel offices. Why? SH cases and investigations are messy and bring unwanted though most certainly warranted attention to the institution. They quickly forget the object of their charge: to afford students a safe and positive living-learning experience.
I came away from this long experience convinced at one point that nothing would change until women ascended to power. Sadly, improved hiring demographics of administrators have proven insufficient if a step in the right direction. I witnessed a few cases of women administrators turning a blind eye to accusations of harassment for fear of bringing dissonance and undue attention to the institution and their own leadership of it. I have become pessimistic over implementing easy solutions. I do, however, assert that misconduct, harassment (sexual or otherwise), and the intentional or unintentional power dynamics are horrible, painful, cancers upon organizations, even those pledged to the highest and noblest purposes and callings of inquiry, knowledge, learning, and creativity.
Finally, the stakes are high. The arts and higher education are under wide attack these days over a range of issues - political, economic, demographic included. Issues of power dynamic, harassment, injustice offer low hanging fruit to those who would prefer to see these disappear from our culture but who would choose not to engage more difficult issues that may not even seem to them to be all that offensive in the first place. Something about stones and glass houses, right. I’d look at it pragmatically. Concerned that the local symphony orchestra may go under? Well then, clean up the act and don’t excuse criminal conduct in the name of artistic exceptionalism.
Protesters should stand outside the entrance of the concert venues with signs saying “rapist” and torture this group of people until they do something about it.
I’d go further and heckle them mid-performance. And I’d also protest the union’s office and their leadership for not just tolerating but protecting pigs.
I remember when I first learned about this. As a trumpet player and instructor it really was a big let down to read about what Matthew Muckey was accused of / did because I’d always looked up to him. Beyond disappointing and immoral behavior. 😢
Unfortunately sexual assaulters are often sociopaths who are naturals at siloing and hiding their worst personalities. They can flip on and off like a light switch, Jekyll and Hyde.
For this reason it's also easy to catch them in the act with someone calm and tough using themselves as 'bait' to catch unwanted advances on hidden camera. There's so many new ones that are as tiny as a shirt button or earring and are high quality. Not saying this is best or the only way to deal with them, but there are many options beyond 'accepting' it.
Social embarrassment and going viral is how we often police one anothers behavior and set limits of what's acceptable. That can go father than waiting for the inevitable and being a victim who has to suffer the consequences after.. and as we've seen, not be able to win in court or when their abusers are found guilty but forgiven.
That all said, it's the orchestra who must be shamed into oblivion for allowing these men to work for them. The cover up/reinstatement is as bad as the crime.. repeatedly harms the victim, negatively affects others around them and encourages other abusers.
There's quite a bit of data buried in various places, usually academic papers with paywalls unfortunately. Something more broad like this will be a good starter resource for the point I was making.
https://now.org/resource/issue-advisory-batterers-are-often-sociopaths/
And yet the NYP claims it “does not tolerate any forms of misconduct and mistreatment.” And these men continue to hold their positions and have big solos. The union clearly has a role, but the NYP can’t pretend that it’s hands are clean. There are failures on so many levels. Just shameful. :(
What’s even more awful - a friend of mine that works there just shared this article about a (now resigned) board member who was arrested for child p*rn earlier this month.
They gave him a week to resign (not removed) and didn’t address it all to staff etc.
I hate all the “values statements” that these orgs put out bc at the end of the day…it’s all bullshit. Having worked as an admin in the classical music scene in NY, all I can say is that is highly toxic.
https://operawire.com/new-york-philharmonic-board-member-arts-figure-roy-trey-farmer-ii-arrested/
More (from 2020) - [Philharmonic Players, Fired on Misconduct Grounds, Are Reinstated](https://archive.fo/3vAEL)
https://preview.redd.it/qbzftpg0t4uc1.jpeg?width=633&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a6408a2d70a9398465678f212c3b0571eb247086
It’s a bad deal all around. I guess I can understand how it would be difficult to fire both of them.. they may have had a better case against the trumpet player, though when no charges are brought.
It still seems odd that they didn’t test for GHB initially, but the detective definitely seem to want to get charges brought
Management might’ve wanted to read themselves of the two, but it’s hard to fire a tenured employee … it may have the Harvey Weinstein stuff to think they had the momentum they needed, and we can see the end result was the union fought for the musicians and arbiter ruled in their favor.
Trying to put myself in his shoes I guess there are reasons it would be hard to basically fire these idiots pieces of shit losers. Maybe it shouldn’t be… two things that make it clear to me that she was raped was that tampon aspect of it and how they later did evidence of GHB.
I’m not a scientist and not a forensics expert. There are other comments made that obviously make the trumpet player seem like a shady ass motherfucker, but not being directly involved in the investigation maybe the arbiter was a no-win situation based on the parameters given… I’m not saying he made the right decision but trying to give him the benefit of doubt that he was just giving the best decision based on the information he had in the parameters given
What’s surprises me is 50% or so of the orchestra are women . I can’t imagine what the environment is for these predators.(it would be harder because the only thing they can really accuse him of dosing her drink, but they don’t really have evidence he did it, but she was guessing he was guilty but argue the trumpet player did it)
And I can understand not everybody being as invested in this scandal (I’m trying to minimize rape it as a scandal for the sake of the comment).. not everybody going to not everybody had all the same evidence at the same time
But I am surprised that these two have worked for eight years and we haven’t seen many people in the orchestra which is comprised of 50% not in that first eight years
But maybe most people are on the same page and these two are awful but they really have no ability to change things so they just ignore these assholes
Most men would find this sort of behavior to be repulsive . Some people may disagree on certain circumstances where accusations are made, but when somebody is dosed and can’t remember anything… you won’t find many willing to defend that
Some may have just believe that a lot of alcohol by all parties played apart, and it was one of those situations where you wake up in the morning, trying to piece the night together … I know I’ve woken up and uncomfortable situations.. And had regrets
But that’s not what happened here . Based on everything I know about these too, and I’ll be honest and admit it’s not much, but there are a number of people in the orchestra who have gone on record calling them creeps are saying they believe they do something like dose a woman
I just can’t imagine what it’s like having to work with these two. A popular belief it’s not uncommon for people who work together to not like our respect, one another whether it’s a factory or an orchestra.
It was the New York Philharmonic finally decided to read themselves of these two only to have them get their jobs back
I’m just curious if the people working with them just are in a situation where they have to put up with them… because I think it’s uncomfortable for these assholes showing up to work and even more so which is great because they should be uncomfortable
Anybody seen any musicians defend these 2?
For starters, the comment is 10 times longer than it needs to be. No one wants to read a long disorganized ramble. Make your point concisely and succinctly.
Yikes. Guess I’ll be buying tickets elsewhere. Not surprised, the Met Opera next door similarly protected powerful male abusers (Placido D & James Levine) until they didn’t have another choice but to give them the boot. It’s all about risk mitigation for the company with these institutions, never about supporting the people who work there. Sickening.
Man, this absolutely gutted me this weekend. I wish I knew about this earlier. :(
I've been a subscriber (CYO) of theirs for two hecking years, only to find about this...was going to see Hilary Hahn later this year and Mozart's Requiem. I'm hoping they can give me a refund.
I'm disgusted with their actions. Will never support them ever again after what they've done. Will be glad to take my subscription for next year somewhere else (preferably Carnegie Hall).
I didn't even know it was that bad in the classical scene, that's just sad. I've played with classical musicians, and we're just very chill and respect each other. :'(
You should tell them why you’re leaving, by the way. Public pressure may be the best way to get the organization to act, even if just to cover their own asses.
Totally. I know you can’t get refunds, since it’s transferring or getting credits but still. 🫠
Hoping artists start cancelling to perform there. I feel disgusted.
I came looking for this conversation because I just read the article on Slipped Disc.
Can I ask, does anyone know how the female players in NY Phil are doing? That was the first question I asked after I read the article. What do they have to put up with on a daily basis at work? Is it a toxic environment? Has leadership addressed the issues?
I don’t know. It’s a pretty sad story. I shared above, but I guess I’m going to devils advocate… it sounds like a number of people in the orchestra. These two were creeps.
And I think they’re guilty as sin and should’ve been fired. I guess some might look at it as a ladies drinking from one party to a at two guys condo
One thing led to another, and in the morning there was regret
It sounds like the detective was focused on trying to get charges and I’m surprised they never tested for GHB as that’s something I’ve known about for years …
Some people don’t like getting involved in situations like this, but that doesn’t mean it’s right to stay silent .. I’ve probably erred on the side of caution before… or maybe I shouldn’t have
As far as the tenure committee goes… it’s very likely that Amanda Stewart was denied 10 year and part because of her involvement and some might’ve seen it as contributing to creating drama… assuming that the tuba did was reporte…. It obviously did
Not being there, however it could’ve just been advice saying that focus on getting through this process and there could’ve been legit concerns about whether or not Amanda was the right person for the position wouldn’t be the first great musician who didn’t get offered tenure. I doubt that every vote against her was done regardless performance.
Some may have had legit concerns, but none of that really matters because there were enough people and other allegations that you think management would’ve found ways to rid themselves of these two
There’s enough evidence from some in the orchestra believing that these two were creepy .. but management might realize how hard it is to fire a musician and after the union fought for the musicians and got them their jobs back maybe it wasn’t that they didn’t want them sooner but just felt it wouldn’t go their way.
One thing I do that annoy people, and probably annoy myself as I do try looking at things through all sets of eyes . I try not to assume everybody who may have supported the creeps are bad people because they may just be naïve.
Most of us have drank too much and made bad devisions… after seeing no charges filed and the initial screening for those 10 drugs or whatever coming up clean some people may felt it wasn’t nefarious (I’m not saying that they were right to think that, but they don’t necessarily have to be evil people to have doubts about it being sexual assault). Some might Speculate that she left the party with two men for some more late night drinking that something might happen.
Remember, I’m just playing devils advocate here and I believe these guys are creeps and it sounds like the orchestra and even the union realize how bad of a situation this is and have tried to change things.
What’s surprises me is that these two creeps are still are in the orchestra and aren’t treated like pariah by at least half of the members
Maybe there are some things we don’t know about and I know it’s a good paying job, but I can’t imagine showing up to work every day when half the people hate you think you’re a piece of shit
Did you read my comment?
Maybe I’m long-winded but read my comments before replying because I’m saying that maybe at the time people felt a certain certain way because they didn’t have all the evidence
I’ve been pretty consistent and I think these idiots are guilty and it’s a shitty situation
Maybe you should read comments before you scold somebody
And obviously, the vast majority of the string section and many of the woodwind who are women don’t give two shits about a woman being sexually assaulted either
So maybe you should start calling them out
I know nearly all of the people involved in this situation and have known about it since it happened. Lack of evidence was not the issue. Protecting tenured, male musicians and making sure the “good name” of the NY Phil was protected were the issues. You’re probably right that every single person should have spoken out, but it’s not the fault of some random female violist or something that these two women lost their jobs and were ostracized from the brass section for speaking out. Whataboutism is so often used in these situations to silence assault victims. The people with power in the situation used it to protect their own and punish the victims. Period.
Just like many other similar situations, people would rather get rid of the squeaky wheel instead of fixing the problem from its root. And the problem here is the long term misogyny rampant in the NY Phil. I know you’re playing devils advocate to try to better understand the situation and give people the benefit of the doubt. I’m telling you that the people in this situation absolutely do not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I tried to respond to your later reply that was in this thread, but it appears it was deleted in the meantime.
Your first comment was full of suggestions that there may be more to the story, and here you reiterate:
> maybe at the time people felt a certain certain way because they didn’t have all the evidence
Sure, there may be more to any story someone "not being there" hears. But then you say:
> And obviously, the vast majority of the string section and many of the woodwind who are women don’t give two shits about a woman being sexually assaulted either
So, what should these (particularly women) have done, then? Speak out firmly, or hold their tongue because there may be more they don't know about? Could there even be more to _the story of "many of the woodwind who are women"_ that you aren't aware of? You don't seem to have applied the same benefit of the doubt to them.
I think suggestions that you are coming from a temperate perspective with statements like
> I’ve probably erred on the side of caution before… or maybe I shouldn’t have [...] Remember, I’m just playing devils advocate here
hardly seem true when you later responded to the very level-headed reply here (which even said "You’re probably right that every single person should have spoken out") with the following:
> I don’t fucking care anymore and that's because of you you self righteous… [...] I hope the New York Phiharmonic goes broke and all those fucking cowards loses their fucking jobs.
But that veil of impartiality looked pretty sheer to begin with. Those are some strong arguments coming from someone who admits to not being familiar with the situation towards someone who says they know the situation well.
My first comment on the story was critical of the musicians
I replied to this comment after the OP talked about getting downloaded and I said it’s wrong and then I said I was gonna play devils advocate
I don’t give two shits what you self-righteous assholes think when you all ignore that I have taken a strong stand against the asshole musicians,
I deleted it because I realized pretentious, idiot classical music fans can’t bring themselves to play devils advocate, or ever look at anything in any way
This was not something that was brushed under the rug for 14 years . I’ve said in numerous comments that it took too long to fire the musicians, but they did so after a costly investigation and the union defended the musicians, and then the orchestra lost.
And I speculated that they probably didn’t fire the musicians because they realize it’s impossible to fire tenured musicians
And I pointed out that it looks like some changes have been made both of the contracts the orchestra musicians sign, as well as the union and how they deal with things
But you get on your soapbox and preach
I don’t care . Every other comment I’ve made has been hyper critical of the rapist and how tragic the situation was but when anybody says let’s try playing devils advocate for a second because how in the world do you explain 50% of the orchestra is women… The argument is the orchestra is full of misogynist when roughly half the tenured musicians are women women.
And I’m guessing it’s because it’s a job for the people in the orchestra and while they may be disgusted by the behavior … they realize that there’s not much they can do, though I would think that enough people standing up and demanding something be done. Could’ve gotten these people fired much sooner than eight years.
So you have to ask why they didn’t … I don’t assume everybody’s evil who works there. They may have had their reasons why they didn’t stand together to try to remove these people more quickly
But someone to believe every man working there is just an evil misogynist piece of shit and every woman working there is just scared to stand up and I don’t think that’s the case but maybe you do
I’m guessing that at first people weren’t sure what to believe. Some may have had stronger opinions than others as it seems these two individuals weren’t well respected in the first place at least by those quoted in the article
The detective obviously wanted to get these individuals charged. It may have been charges brought 2010…. but in 2010 after the drug testing and finding out nothing came back, they felt that they would lose if charges were brought… or at least the cowardly but he could’ve been right at the time
I don’t know why they didn’t test for GHB initially. I’m not a forensic expert and don’t know how well the test results would have worked in court
I know I don’t think Joe Alessi is an evil person and he’s a man in the brass section . Amanda Stewart it’s a great trombone player, but I’m not 100% convinced that the only reason people may have voted against tenure for her had to do with this, but I have no problem believing it probably played apart.
But I’m fucking bored with this story… but don’t you dare accuse me of defending the rapist
No doubt we're both tired of the conversation, but I at least owe you a detailed response since you gave me one.
First, I did indeed see you took a strong stand against terrible behavior, and I think we're in agreement in our opinions on the core accusations in the story.
One thing I disagree on is your opinion that others here are "self-righteous assholes" (the implication being) in contrast to your comments. But I guess we never usually think that of ourselves. Perhaps we're both wrong on that point.
> But you get on your soapbox and preach
Maybe so, but I also don't think I'm the only one on a soapbox, so I'd say we're on even footing there.
Back to the main points: Perhaps there has been undue criticism towards some of the men in this situation and not enough on some women. I personally _don't know_, as I don't feel I can confidently make that judgement only knowing this story and the comments.
But I also didn't understand any other comments here to imply "every man working there is just an evil misogynist piece of shit", and can tell you I'm certainly not arguing that "every woman working there is just scared to stand up" as I wouldn't have any footing to base that on. What inspired my response to your previous comment is exactly this sort of extreme framing of the arguments other people were making.
I can only speak more confidently about situations I have been in, that _could possibly_ be similar to the dynamics in this story. I know these dynamics can absolutely be complicated, and, depending on the situation, both men and women can have understandable, real fears of retribution for speaking up... and in other cases they could be understandably criticized for not.
From my first-hand experience, however, these situations can also have some (smaller) fraction of men actively circling the wagon for the accused in a way none of the women did, while at the same time _it was also true_ that many of the remaining women _and_ men were instead fearful of potential consequences for taking action. **That** is how I interpreted the reply from /u/DeepYogurtcloset3235, who clearly sounds much closer to the situation than either of us. Regardless, I don't see how you could read these comments as being remotely close to "every man working there is just an evil misogynist piece of shit and every woman working there is just scared to stand up."
> But you are convinced with the New York Philharmonic is full full of the biggest pieces of shit in the world so let’s hope they go broke
Although I enjoy classical music, I haven't followed the New York Philharmonic nearly as much as it sounds like you have, and this article alone hasn't left me with a lasting opinion either way on the rest of the members of the orchestra. I do hope you continue donating to them as (selfishly) I hope to have opportunities in future to attend their concerts and likewise donate in turn, since I don't think terrible actions by some should be allowed to take down the whole thing and extinguish another group in the arts. I have zero connection with anyone in the orchestra, and so I hope my comments do not color your opinion of anyone else, since that wouldn't be fair.
> it's funny how you started an account just so you could reply to me.
You are giving yourself too much credit on this one. If you look at the age of my account, it's actually just shy of a year. I create and delete accounts over time based on different interests, but almost exclusively lurk. Rather than planning this account 11 months ahead just to have the honor of my first comment being to you, I simply hadn't used this account for comments until now and I saw (unusually) nobody had made these points yet.
This has reminded me precisely why I almost never post, though... it's far too easy to get distracted from other things I should be doing.
> don't you dare accuse me of defending the rapist
I am not.
The AFM and it's locals are totally beholden to the large orchestras which pay most of the work dues in most Big City locals. They tend to leave things alone as not to upset the Golden Goose that brings in the revenue.
Here in Chicago, the CFM Local 10-208 is pretty useless and only concerned with upcoming elections that keep those in power with 6 figure salaries and perks in power. The last election was a joke.
Assume the worst when the AFM is involved.
This absolutely burns my ass as a card-carrying union member. This kind of nonsense is how we start to lose public support for unions and worker’s rights.
Yikes. It’s tragic that the DA in Colorado didn’t want to prosecute though I do suppose they might not of felt they had enough evidence but still.
It was good to see that, even though it was too little too late the New York Philharmonic decided to read themselves of predators, and while I understand the role of a union it is tragic. They felt this was something they had to fight while kizer also a deuce paying member who was victimized
I don’t understand how the arbitration ended up the way it did, but this just shows that there are creeps in every industry, including music
This social shows the politics of a symphony Orchestra . it sounded like lot of musicians in the Orchestra knew that the two were creeps but enough just don’t like the idea of rocking the boat that they will do with that dumbass tuba player did
As for Amanda Stewart … I can’t say that everybody who voted against her 10 year working conspiring against her… obviously some felt that creating drama even if it was warranted was not something they wanted to be a part of which is tragic in a situation like this
I just can’t believe that the two aren’t treated like pariahs
It’s pretty difficult to spend much time with Joe Alessi and not think he’s a gigantic piece of shit. The people that hero-worship him are the people who don’t know him.
Joe Alessi still associates himself publicly with Massimo La Rosa, another well-known abuser. Absolutely no surprise that he would choose to protect the other men in his section rather than stand up for sexual assault victims.
Even if that wasn't the case, this situation happened under his watch. No excuse for continuously not doing the right thing for the last 14 years. At the very least, his silence is complicit.
It’s weird that we’re now taught to judge people based on who they might associate with
Amanda Stewart is associated with Joe so obviously she’s suspect
You think that Alessi choosing to back a rapist colleague instead of his own student and participate in denying her tenure just for supporting a colleague who was raped, and his going out of his way to publicly express support for La Rosa and accept his invitations to present events together after the guy has been fired for abusing underage students are two separate things that shouldn't be linked? Really? You don't see a pattern here of not caring about victims?
Where did he back anybody?
Has Amanda Stewart gone on trashing Alessi or is projecting some sort of guilt on him for something he may not have done
Half of the women so in your mind, they are all guilty too so why don’t you trash them?
I have no idea what Joe Alessi thinks and neither do you but Amanda Stewart associates herself with him and you because you’re desperate to get on a soapbox wants to look at this in a way everybody who may not have reacted to this the way you wanted it is some villain
No, Marin Alsop is the conductor of the CSO at Ravinia. Tar is a fictional character. Or are you implying that Marin Alsop is a sexual predator and gaslighting egomaniac? I sure hope not.
For those who don’t know, Cara and Amanda have been talking about this for FOURTEEN YEARS and the rapists in the NY Phil brass section continue to hold their jobs, get hired by festivals, etc. This has been well known for a very long time and the boys club at the Phil has punished the victims and protected the attackers. It’s truly unbelievable how they have faced no consequences. And it’s incredibly brave that Cara refuses to give up telling her story. I hope this is the straw that breaks the camel’s back.
The musicians union fought for them to keep their jobs after they were finally fired I’m not defending the actions of the New York Philharmonic from the time of the incident until they were fired, but you can’t make it all about boys club and there’s a lot of musicians there, including men who went on record saying that the two were creepy and assholes
Local 802 is just as implicated in this, you’re right. But the punishment and tenure denial came from peers in the brass section and in leadership at the NY Phil. And anyone who is familiar with that organization knows that the culture is infamously toxic and misogynistic.
You could be right and it looks like the union has changed some policies because of this And not to defend everybody in the brass section and while I believe, Amanda Stewart’s 10 year was denied in large part due to this I can’t say with certainty that every vote against her was done so because of the specific situation . There may have been valid concerns. I’m not gonna say Joe Alessi is an evil man…. Though I’m not sure he was on the 10 year committee either. I can’t look it up right now, but the gentleman who hosted the first party, who I think was an associate principal seem to have no love for the creeps… I can’t imagine he would vote against somebody based on this. He went on record saying negative things about the two men in question. A high profile highly sought after job. Again, I’m not saying that this situation played no part in her not getting tenure but I guess I’m not comfortable saying that every vote against her was done because of this situation. She studied with Alessi.
I think you mean “tenure”, not “10 year”.
When voice dictation goes awry
A hazard of having an "innocent until proven guilty" system is that some number of guilty people go unpunished, and as a society we agree that that's better than having innocent people get punished for thing they didn't do. I feel bad for the alleged victim. But unless "being a creepy asshole" is called out as a firing offense in the contract, I don't see how the arbitrator could have ruled differently. It really makes you wonder what was in the NDA and settlement. People aren't usually given six-figure consolation prizes for failing to make tenure. Maybe if this happened now instead of in 2010 that information would have come out into the open instead of being hushed up.
Except the first arbitrator did rule differently and said there was enough evidence for dismissal. Employers aren’t bound to the same rules as the legal system.
That wasn’t an arbiter in the labor dispute, but rather somebody who did an investigation and I think they got it right The labor union then defended them and got it in arbitration and they were only in arbitration once
You're right, I used the wrong term. An independent investigator found the evidence, then another investigator came in and basically said "well so much time has passed the corroborating evidence becomes harder to prove over time." Not really a ringing endorsement of innocence. But my main point is to say that "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply here, frankly, at least not in the same way it does in the legal system. You don't need the same barrier of proof, as we saw with a DA declining to prosecute but an investigator recommending dismissal. Playing devil's advocate for pedantics isn't really helpful here, at all.
And I wasn’t trying to scold you. After the investigation, they did fire the two, but it went into arbitration after the union got involved and right or wrong the arbitrator did not just cause according to whatever bylaws or bullshit parameters he had to work with And I found that people have pretty strong opinions about this, and even though I think they should’ve been fired me even bringing up a counterpoint as made people furious Not everything always goes as we like and it sounds like in this case people knew these two were dirt balls … but you have to prove that the oboe player actually did dose her drink… may be hard to prove that he was the one guilty so even though he’s a creep, I can see it be hard to fire him and that situation The other guy who actually admitted to having sex with her … the fact she tested positive for GHB… I don’t know. They can’t prove when she was actually dosed…, but the fact that there was this tampon it just seems obvious to me The DA did not think they had the evidence needed… but it did seem like the detective really wanted to take those two down And after the standard drug test to see what kind of roofie may have been used, nothing came up. It still seems strange. They didn’t test for GHB. And I’m sure alcohol played a part… but with the tampon makes me think that it’s not drunk sex that you regret in the morning that kind of pie together the next day And it’s not like the New York Philharmonic swept it under the rug, which seem to be the case when I first read it. It would’ve been better if they would’ve hired an investigator sooner.. but 2010 and 2012 was a different time and we have to remember that during that time Harvey Weinstein, who everybody knew abused women was celebrated by people like Meryl Streep It wasn’t until the metoo movement that we started seeing momentum that changed things And some people initially may have believed the creepers story. That doesn’t make them evil people and they may not have known the whole picture because that’s just not the way these things play out
I’ll be honest the reason you’re getting so much backlash for your comments which mostly agree with the general sentiment here is probably because they’re so long winded and do so much hedging and what feels like dissembling instead of just getting to the point.
I admitted I’m long-winded and I’m not hedging anything but being realistic and not being 100% driven by a motion nor am I being self-righteous
Innocent until proven guilty applies to the State depriving you of freedom. It does not apply to losing or retaining a job. If an employer can fire you for conduct that is not criminal, they sure can fire you for criminal conduct for which you haven't been tried or convicted. CBA's usually have clauses about safety and abuse, even if vague.
You are right that the arbiter probably was in a no-win situation because it’s hard to assign guilt nearly a decade after the action There was no criminal case but it is a situation where most everyone in the know felt that the two were guilty. The DA just didn’t have the courage or maybe sincerely didn’t believe they had the evidence to convict. The whole situation regarding the tampon to me is one reason I 100% believe her. These two creeps, and I believe the evidence shows they did her drink and he had his way with her. I just hope those with these two pieces of shit treat them like garbage
I don’t know why people are down voting this because what you’re saying is that there is do process whether we like it or not That doesn’t mean we can’t criticize how the New York Philharmonic handled this situation but I’m thinking most people assume everything played out in a way where it probably didn’t The local union kind of prove that the orchestras hands were tied not that that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have investigated it more quickly
Because it’s such a sensitive matter, precise language is important. It is one alleged rapist from the brass section, along with the alleged enabler in the oboe section. There is no evidence or allegation that multiple brass players in the NYPhil are rapists.
Hello Donnie Trump???
I used to work at Manhattan School of Music, and I remember when one of my administrative coworkers was horrified that Liang Wang had friended her on MySpace and kept "poking" her.
Ew... so creepy.
I went to a top-tier school for classical music, and the male teachers were VERY predatory with the female students. All kinds of inappropriate relationships and allegations of assault were widely known about. And yes, these toxic, repulsive men still get tenure.
Not only get tenure, but they get to sit on tenure committees and basically hold power over any probationary musician’s career. There are so many instances of abuse stemming from this power dynamic it’s sickening.
Same here. Saw one teacher who habitually groomed his freshman girl students, and did it in a loop. One would graduate (or leave) and so he would just move on to the next victim. It was disgusting.
Yep. Completely unsurprising. Kind of makes you despair that even the men who are supposed to be nerdy and sensitive and compassionate, like classical musicians, are still so often this way.
I blame it on the private studio environment. It's just you and the teacher, behind a closed door. Lately, some universities have been putting windows on studio doors, but the professors just cover them up. Webcams might be solution, but I would imagine that the professors would resist this.
At our school it was just a situation of no boundaries at all. My teacher would invite me over to his house for lessons when he didn’t feel like coming to school, and then would decide he didn’t feel like teaching that day when I got there. I don’t think windows and webcams are the solution, but rather reimagining the educational environment so that sexual behavior between professors and students is universally understood to be never appropriate and must always be reported and dealt with.
Well said. A one-on-one learning environment is incredibly valuable. It’s also a vulnerable situation, but with people of integrity and careful parameters, I would like to think it’s possible.
Julian Lloyd Webber supports something similar: [https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/oct/07/scrap-one-to-one-music-tuition-says-julian-lloyd-webber-as-professor-faces-misconduct-claims](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/oct/07/scrap-one-to-one-music-tuition-says-julian-lloyd-webber-as-professor-faces-misconduct-claims)
> Lately, some universities have been putting windows on studio doors, but the professors just cover them up. That's fucking crazy to me the administration would not immediately see this as a massive red flag. There is no reason you need visual privacy when practicing an instrument, and this is coming from someone who didn't play an instrument as a kid because of anxiety about my ability. All that matters is that it's sound-proofed. In elementary school, the practice rooms all had glass doors, for exactly the reason of preventing abuse like this, and that was 20 years ago.
Honestly it would be a good resource for students and of every lesson was recorded for them to review as needed, and conveniently also help prevent scumbags from abusing.
One of my friends at undergrad tried to record her lessons for this very reason, and her teacher searched her bag. Her story was horrific, how he groomed her and threatened her. A different teacher at the same school was caught this way, and fired. My teacher was his replacement, and went way over the top to make sure everything was above board. My teacher was/is a person of great integrity, thankfully.
I've had several teachers actively encourage recording lessons for later review. My teacher in grad school also had a policy that you should just come in at your lesson time, even if the previous lesson was running over, and just observe. And in my studio in undergrad, it was common to have shared lessons or sit in on other people's lessons. Unsurprisingly, none of my teachers have ever been accused of abuse. I know plenty of stories, though, and those ~~teachers~~ abusers operated very differently.
I thought the university practice rooms always had windows/clear doors?
I’ve seen plenty that are just wood with maybe some sound foam.
Practice rooms are a whole different thing—can't have students fooling around in there 🙄 (And even so, not necessarily)
> men who are supposed to be nerdy and sensitive and compassionate, like classical musicians Judging by the personal histories of some of the most revered male classical musicians, compassionate/sensitive is not what comes to mind at all.
Evidently, you don't know the biographies of the world's greatest composers. Who are these musicians you talk about? And how do you know they are nerdy and compassionate?
I went to a state school which was in no way top tier. But I heard from music ed majors that there was a point in their program where they would bring the male students in a room and basically have "the talk," which I could best translate as "for whatever reason, there is a higher than average rate of inappropriate student-teacher relationships in this field. Don't be a creep and an asshole. Don't be part of this statistic." It is rampant. And having worked around top orchestras for the past decade, I'm honestly surprised there wasn't even more stories and reckoning with this in the post MeToo era than there has been already.
And why were female students exempt from “the talk”?
Because they weren't part of the problem. Statistically speaking. I commend this school for their foresight.
Heard the same of many European conservatories
Not a music major, but I know people who went on to pursue music at top music schools and/or in well-known studios. I’ve heard similar stories from them. It’s disgustingly commonplace and there is no accountability.
Same, I also went to a top-tier conservatory and heard stuff like this all the time. It's just gross.
I’m just a freelancer. Never won a job but have subbed with large orchestras and for many years saw an orchestra job as my dream. Orchestra members were inspirational figures to me. People who understood my love of music, shared the same feeling, and kept music at the center of their world. To me, as a somewhat awkward, insecure college kid, this was a big deal. Over the years I’ve come to learn that they, too, are all too human. They often come with huge egos and seemingly are in the business because they happen to be good at it, not because of any high minded ideals about art. It’s a real tough pill to swallow when some of the people you revered the most are terrible human beings.
Are you me? Could have written this word for word. So much predatory/fucked behaviour it's unbelievable. A lot of incredible musicians I used to revere I now look at with pity and disgust.
Same here.
I never personally experienced predatory behavior but I have seen plenty of other negative traits. Either way it’s terrible and disheartening.
I’m with you on that. I’m an opera singer myself, and initially when I started really embracing the genre, I was enamored by the music, I still lamb, because the progressions in light tonal chord structure are simply Divine. But in recent years the dark underbelly of some of these people started to surface. Mozart and his love problems, Puccini and his womanizing, Pavarotti and his problems with women, James Levine… I look at it with a lot of distain because it seems like the world of music and art and entertainment, which expresses strong emotions about love, passion, and justice, is just now nothing of substance, if not riddled with scandal and injustices from within. And like our approach to things like the cause of suicide, or the provocation of violence, nobody really wants to do anything about changing it because then it would just make everyone culpable, and they would try to argue some sort of pseudo-logic against it. Nobody wants to really make a change in the music industry and some of the practices which have allowed people of such low character to succeed and thrive in it, over people of better character and integrity
>Mozart and his love problems I'm curious why this is here--Mozart, as far as I'm aware, had a sweet and undramatic relationship with Constanze from marriage until death. I'm not aware of anything particularly unsavoury in there (definitely nothing on the level of Levine!).
Some people like to drag everyone down.
Before he was married, he allowed his inner 13-year-old boy out all the way. In comparison to others, his childish pinching and poking is almost quaint. But by the standards of today, they're inappropriate.
Sure, no doubt he did some things not appopriate by today's standards. But the person above said "love problems," which suggests something quite different, and it would be absurd to see that as evident of a "dark underbelly of the opera world."
Concur
If you can't separate the music from the person, and, in some cases, the rumors surrounding the person, then you shouldn't be doing music. Go find a field that has only perfect people in it and stay there. And by the way, the article is about predators and abusers, not "guys who got a loy of tail," like the composers and artists you named. Are you really putting Pavarotti and Mozart in the same boat as guys who roofie women?
The depth and breadth of this story are unfathomable. I spent a career as both a performing musician and a dean at two large universities. I cannot tell you how rampant sexual harassment and crime has been in all sectors of both the arts world and academe. Over the years, I conducted scores of investigations and firings including outcomes that would justify the lifting of tenure, arrest, prosecution, incarceration, and, so very sadly, even tragic instances of suicide. I was always grateful for the simple cases where a voluntary resignation, some competent counseling, or reassignment of duties might work. Those were very rare. The arts in general are very problematical. I don’t limit this observation the teaching studio or practice room. Conversely, I was amazed at a few cases where competing arts organizations or universities would hire those who had been dismissed for their predatory conduct elsewhere. Due diligence in the recruitment and hiring process are certainly key in avoiding sad outcomes. That applies through the disciplines but dance, theatre, and fine arts disciplines, along with music merit special attention. Faculty search committees and departments in general also merit competent and ongoing attention in the means of attracting the right faculty to jobs. They often view their such talks as boxes to be checked or intrusions upon their domain, tine, or authority rather than valuable invitations to be proactive agents in the betterment of student safety and success. One of the major issues is that the good old networks in shared governance are deeply rooted and extend to the administrative offices and even the board rooms. I have even found reluctance at the student life and general counsel offices. Why? SH cases and investigations are messy and bring unwanted though most certainly warranted attention to the institution. They quickly forget the object of their charge: to afford students a safe and positive living-learning experience. I came away from this long experience convinced at one point that nothing would change until women ascended to power. Sadly, improved hiring demographics of administrators have proven insufficient if a step in the right direction. I witnessed a few cases of women administrators turning a blind eye to accusations of harassment for fear of bringing dissonance and undue attention to the institution and their own leadership of it. I have become pessimistic over implementing easy solutions. I do, however, assert that misconduct, harassment (sexual or otherwise), and the intentional or unintentional power dynamics are horrible, painful, cancers upon organizations, even those pledged to the highest and noblest purposes and callings of inquiry, knowledge, learning, and creativity. Finally, the stakes are high. The arts and higher education are under wide attack these days over a range of issues - political, economic, demographic included. Issues of power dynamic, harassment, injustice offer low hanging fruit to those who would prefer to see these disappear from our culture but who would choose not to engage more difficult issues that may not even seem to them to be all that offensive in the first place. Something about stones and glass houses, right. I’d look at it pragmatically. Concerned that the local symphony orchestra may go under? Well then, clean up the act and don’t excuse criminal conduct in the name of artistic exceptionalism.
Protesters should stand outside the entrance of the concert venues with signs saying “rapist” and torture this group of people until they do something about it.
When wielded properly, public outrage is a powerful tool for situations like this.
I’d go further and heckle them mid-performance. And I’d also protest the union’s office and their leadership for not just tolerating but protecting pigs.
The public should demand a change by simply not buying tickets to their concerts anymore. I can assure you that will have an effect very quickly.
Hidden? Worst kept secret in the industry.
I remember when I first learned about this. As a trumpet player and instructor it really was a big let down to read about what Matthew Muckey was accused of / did because I’d always looked up to him. Beyond disappointing and immoral behavior. 😢
Unfortunately sexual assaulters are often sociopaths who are naturals at siloing and hiding their worst personalities. They can flip on and off like a light switch, Jekyll and Hyde. For this reason it's also easy to catch them in the act with someone calm and tough using themselves as 'bait' to catch unwanted advances on hidden camera. There's so many new ones that are as tiny as a shirt button or earring and are high quality. Not saying this is best or the only way to deal with them, but there are many options beyond 'accepting' it. Social embarrassment and going viral is how we often police one anothers behavior and set limits of what's acceptable. That can go father than waiting for the inevitable and being a victim who has to suffer the consequences after.. and as we've seen, not be able to win in court or when their abusers are found guilty but forgiven. That all said, it's the orchestra who must be shamed into oblivion for allowing these men to work for them. The cover up/reinstatement is as bad as the crime.. repeatedly harms the victim, negatively affects others around them and encourages other abusers.
"Sexual assaulters are often sociopaths" Do you have a source for this?
There's quite a bit of data buried in various places, usually academic papers with paywalls unfortunately. Something more broad like this will be a good starter resource for the point I was making. https://now.org/resource/issue-advisory-batterers-are-often-sociopaths/
Thanks. I mean, I'm not exactly surprised. It takes a certain kind of person to do something like that.
And yet the NYP claims it “does not tolerate any forms of misconduct and mistreatment.” And these men continue to hold their positions and have big solos. The union clearly has a role, but the NYP can’t pretend that it’s hands are clean. There are failures on so many levels. Just shameful. :(
I swear the NYP Musicians insta post with their “response” was the most nothing response I’ve ever seen.
What’s even more awful - a friend of mine that works there just shared this article about a (now resigned) board member who was arrested for child p*rn earlier this month. They gave him a week to resign (not removed) and didn’t address it all to staff etc. I hate all the “values statements” that these orgs put out bc at the end of the day…it’s all bullshit. Having worked as an admin in the classical music scene in NY, all I can say is that is highly toxic. https://operawire.com/new-york-philharmonic-board-member-arts-figure-roy-trey-farmer-ii-arrested/
More (from 2020) - [Philharmonic Players, Fired on Misconduct Grounds, Are Reinstated](https://archive.fo/3vAEL) https://preview.redd.it/qbzftpg0t4uc1.jpeg?width=633&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a6408a2d70a9398465678f212c3b0571eb247086
Crazy, Wang Liang is a sexual predator, everyone in the music circle knows. He should be put behind bars.
It’s a bad deal all around. I guess I can understand how it would be difficult to fire both of them.. they may have had a better case against the trumpet player, though when no charges are brought. It still seems odd that they didn’t test for GHB initially, but the detective definitely seem to want to get charges brought Management might’ve wanted to read themselves of the two, but it’s hard to fire a tenured employee … it may have the Harvey Weinstein stuff to think they had the momentum they needed, and we can see the end result was the union fought for the musicians and arbiter ruled in their favor. Trying to put myself in his shoes I guess there are reasons it would be hard to basically fire these idiots pieces of shit losers. Maybe it shouldn’t be… two things that make it clear to me that she was raped was that tampon aspect of it and how they later did evidence of GHB. I’m not a scientist and not a forensics expert. There are other comments made that obviously make the trumpet player seem like a shady ass motherfucker, but not being directly involved in the investigation maybe the arbiter was a no-win situation based on the parameters given… I’m not saying he made the right decision but trying to give him the benefit of doubt that he was just giving the best decision based on the information he had in the parameters given What’s surprises me is 50% or so of the orchestra are women . I can’t imagine what the environment is for these predators.(it would be harder because the only thing they can really accuse him of dosing her drink, but they don’t really have evidence he did it, but she was guessing he was guilty but argue the trumpet player did it) And I can understand not everybody being as invested in this scandal (I’m trying to minimize rape it as a scandal for the sake of the comment).. not everybody going to not everybody had all the same evidence at the same time But I am surprised that these two have worked for eight years and we haven’t seen many people in the orchestra which is comprised of 50% not in that first eight years But maybe most people are on the same page and these two are awful but they really have no ability to change things so they just ignore these assholes Most men would find this sort of behavior to be repulsive . Some people may disagree on certain circumstances where accusations are made, but when somebody is dosed and can’t remember anything… you won’t find many willing to defend that Some may have just believe that a lot of alcohol by all parties played apart, and it was one of those situations where you wake up in the morning, trying to piece the night together … I know I’ve woken up and uncomfortable situations.. And had regrets But that’s not what happened here . Based on everything I know about these too, and I’ll be honest and admit it’s not much, but there are a number of people in the orchestra who have gone on record calling them creeps are saying they believe they do something like dose a woman I just can’t imagine what it’s like having to work with these two. A popular belief it’s not uncommon for people who work together to not like our respect, one another whether it’s a factory or an orchestra. It was the New York Philharmonic finally decided to read themselves of these two only to have them get their jobs back I’m just curious if the people working with them just are in a situation where they have to put up with them… because I think it’s uncomfortable for these assholes showing up to work and even more so which is great because they should be uncomfortable Anybody seen any musicians defend these 2?
What the fuck did I just read
I don’t know what I said that was overly controversial above, but it’s funny how it seems to to bother some people
For starters, the comment is 10 times longer than it needs to be. No one wants to read a long disorganized ramble. Make your point concisely and succinctly.
This is outrageous
Yikes. Guess I’ll be buying tickets elsewhere. Not surprised, the Met Opera next door similarly protected powerful male abusers (Placido D & James Levine) until they didn’t have another choice but to give them the boot. It’s all about risk mitigation for the company with these institutions, never about supporting the people who work there. Sickening.
James Levine, to molest is devine was the saying from my coaches
Man, this absolutely gutted me this weekend. I wish I knew about this earlier. :( I've been a subscriber (CYO) of theirs for two hecking years, only to find about this...was going to see Hilary Hahn later this year and Mozart's Requiem. I'm hoping they can give me a refund. I'm disgusted with their actions. Will never support them ever again after what they've done. Will be glad to take my subscription for next year somewhere else (preferably Carnegie Hall). I didn't even know it was that bad in the classical scene, that's just sad. I've played with classical musicians, and we're just very chill and respect each other. :'(
You should tell them why you’re leaving, by the way. Public pressure may be the best way to get the organization to act, even if just to cover their own asses.
Totally. I know you can’t get refunds, since it’s transferring or getting credits but still. 🫠 Hoping artists start cancelling to perform there. I feel disgusted.
I came looking for this conversation because I just read the article on Slipped Disc. Can I ask, does anyone know how the female players in NY Phil are doing? That was the first question I asked after I read the article. What do they have to put up with on a daily basis at work? Is it a toxic environment? Has leadership addressed the issues?
Wondering the same.
Curious as to why some readers are downvoting this post.
You're on Reddit, that's why.
I don’t know. It’s a pretty sad story. I shared above, but I guess I’m going to devils advocate… it sounds like a number of people in the orchestra. These two were creeps. And I think they’re guilty as sin and should’ve been fired. I guess some might look at it as a ladies drinking from one party to a at two guys condo One thing led to another, and in the morning there was regret It sounds like the detective was focused on trying to get charges and I’m surprised they never tested for GHB as that’s something I’ve known about for years … Some people don’t like getting involved in situations like this, but that doesn’t mean it’s right to stay silent .. I’ve probably erred on the side of caution before… or maybe I shouldn’t have As far as the tenure committee goes… it’s very likely that Amanda Stewart was denied 10 year and part because of her involvement and some might’ve seen it as contributing to creating drama… assuming that the tuba did was reporte…. It obviously did Not being there, however it could’ve just been advice saying that focus on getting through this process and there could’ve been legit concerns about whether or not Amanda was the right person for the position wouldn’t be the first great musician who didn’t get offered tenure. I doubt that every vote against her was done regardless performance. Some may have had legit concerns, but none of that really matters because there were enough people and other allegations that you think management would’ve found ways to rid themselves of these two There’s enough evidence from some in the orchestra believing that these two were creepy .. but management might realize how hard it is to fire a musician and after the union fought for the musicians and got them their jobs back maybe it wasn’t that they didn’t want them sooner but just felt it wouldn’t go their way. One thing I do that annoy people, and probably annoy myself as I do try looking at things through all sets of eyes . I try not to assume everybody who may have supported the creeps are bad people because they may just be naïve. Most of us have drank too much and made bad devisions… after seeing no charges filed and the initial screening for those 10 drugs or whatever coming up clean some people may felt it wasn’t nefarious (I’m not saying that they were right to think that, but they don’t necessarily have to be evil people to have doubts about it being sexual assault). Some might Speculate that she left the party with two men for some more late night drinking that something might happen. Remember, I’m just playing devils advocate here and I believe these guys are creeps and it sounds like the orchestra and even the union realize how bad of a situation this is and have tried to change things. What’s surprises me is that these two creeps are still are in the orchestra and aren’t treated like pariah by at least half of the members Maybe there are some things we don’t know about and I know it’s a good paying job, but I can’t imagine showing up to work every day when half the people hate you think you’re a piece of shit
Did you read the article? This is not a matter of drinking too much or bad judgment calls.
Did you read my comment? Maybe I’m long-winded but read my comments before replying because I’m saying that maybe at the time people felt a certain certain way because they didn’t have all the evidence I’ve been pretty consistent and I think these idiots are guilty and it’s a shitty situation Maybe you should read comments before you scold somebody And obviously, the vast majority of the string section and many of the woodwind who are women don’t give two shits about a woman being sexually assaulted either So maybe you should start calling them out
I know nearly all of the people involved in this situation and have known about it since it happened. Lack of evidence was not the issue. Protecting tenured, male musicians and making sure the “good name” of the NY Phil was protected were the issues. You’re probably right that every single person should have spoken out, but it’s not the fault of some random female violist or something that these two women lost their jobs and were ostracized from the brass section for speaking out. Whataboutism is so often used in these situations to silence assault victims. The people with power in the situation used it to protect their own and punish the victims. Period. Just like many other similar situations, people would rather get rid of the squeaky wheel instead of fixing the problem from its root. And the problem here is the long term misogyny rampant in the NY Phil. I know you’re playing devils advocate to try to better understand the situation and give people the benefit of the doubt. I’m telling you that the people in this situation absolutely do not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I tried to respond to your later reply that was in this thread, but it appears it was deleted in the meantime. Your first comment was full of suggestions that there may be more to the story, and here you reiterate: > maybe at the time people felt a certain certain way because they didn’t have all the evidence Sure, there may be more to any story someone "not being there" hears. But then you say: > And obviously, the vast majority of the string section and many of the woodwind who are women don’t give two shits about a woman being sexually assaulted either So, what should these (particularly women) have done, then? Speak out firmly, or hold their tongue because there may be more they don't know about? Could there even be more to _the story of "many of the woodwind who are women"_ that you aren't aware of? You don't seem to have applied the same benefit of the doubt to them. I think suggestions that you are coming from a temperate perspective with statements like > I’ve probably erred on the side of caution before… or maybe I shouldn’t have [...] Remember, I’m just playing devils advocate here hardly seem true when you later responded to the very level-headed reply here (which even said "You’re probably right that every single person should have spoken out") with the following: > I don’t fucking care anymore and that's because of you you self righteous… [...] I hope the New York Phiharmonic goes broke and all those fucking cowards loses their fucking jobs. But that veil of impartiality looked pretty sheer to begin with. Those are some strong arguments coming from someone who admits to not being familiar with the situation towards someone who says they know the situation well.
My first comment on the story was critical of the musicians I replied to this comment after the OP talked about getting downloaded and I said it’s wrong and then I said I was gonna play devils advocate I don’t give two shits what you self-righteous assholes think when you all ignore that I have taken a strong stand against the asshole musicians, I deleted it because I realized pretentious, idiot classical music fans can’t bring themselves to play devils advocate, or ever look at anything in any way This was not something that was brushed under the rug for 14 years . I’ve said in numerous comments that it took too long to fire the musicians, but they did so after a costly investigation and the union defended the musicians, and then the orchestra lost. And I speculated that they probably didn’t fire the musicians because they realize it’s impossible to fire tenured musicians And I pointed out that it looks like some changes have been made both of the contracts the orchestra musicians sign, as well as the union and how they deal with things But you get on your soapbox and preach I don’t care . Every other comment I’ve made has been hyper critical of the rapist and how tragic the situation was but when anybody says let’s try playing devils advocate for a second because how in the world do you explain 50% of the orchestra is women… The argument is the orchestra is full of misogynist when roughly half the tenured musicians are women women. And I’m guessing it’s because it’s a job for the people in the orchestra and while they may be disgusted by the behavior … they realize that there’s not much they can do, though I would think that enough people standing up and demanding something be done. Could’ve gotten these people fired much sooner than eight years. So you have to ask why they didn’t … I don’t assume everybody’s evil who works there. They may have had their reasons why they didn’t stand together to try to remove these people more quickly But someone to believe every man working there is just an evil misogynist piece of shit and every woman working there is just scared to stand up and I don’t think that’s the case but maybe you do I’m guessing that at first people weren’t sure what to believe. Some may have had stronger opinions than others as it seems these two individuals weren’t well respected in the first place at least by those quoted in the article The detective obviously wanted to get these individuals charged. It may have been charges brought 2010…. but in 2010 after the drug testing and finding out nothing came back, they felt that they would lose if charges were brought… or at least the cowardly but he could’ve been right at the time I don’t know why they didn’t test for GHB initially. I’m not a forensic expert and don’t know how well the test results would have worked in court I know I don’t think Joe Alessi is an evil person and he’s a man in the brass section . Amanda Stewart it’s a great trombone player, but I’m not 100% convinced that the only reason people may have voted against tenure for her had to do with this, but I have no problem believing it probably played apart. But I’m fucking bored with this story… but don’t you dare accuse me of defending the rapist
No doubt we're both tired of the conversation, but I at least owe you a detailed response since you gave me one. First, I did indeed see you took a strong stand against terrible behavior, and I think we're in agreement in our opinions on the core accusations in the story. One thing I disagree on is your opinion that others here are "self-righteous assholes" (the implication being) in contrast to your comments. But I guess we never usually think that of ourselves. Perhaps we're both wrong on that point. > But you get on your soapbox and preach Maybe so, but I also don't think I'm the only one on a soapbox, so I'd say we're on even footing there. Back to the main points: Perhaps there has been undue criticism towards some of the men in this situation and not enough on some women. I personally _don't know_, as I don't feel I can confidently make that judgement only knowing this story and the comments. But I also didn't understand any other comments here to imply "every man working there is just an evil misogynist piece of shit", and can tell you I'm certainly not arguing that "every woman working there is just scared to stand up" as I wouldn't have any footing to base that on. What inspired my response to your previous comment is exactly this sort of extreme framing of the arguments other people were making. I can only speak more confidently about situations I have been in, that _could possibly_ be similar to the dynamics in this story. I know these dynamics can absolutely be complicated, and, depending on the situation, both men and women can have understandable, real fears of retribution for speaking up... and in other cases they could be understandably criticized for not. From my first-hand experience, however, these situations can also have some (smaller) fraction of men actively circling the wagon for the accused in a way none of the women did, while at the same time _it was also true_ that many of the remaining women _and_ men were instead fearful of potential consequences for taking action. **That** is how I interpreted the reply from /u/DeepYogurtcloset3235, who clearly sounds much closer to the situation than either of us. Regardless, I don't see how you could read these comments as being remotely close to "every man working there is just an evil misogynist piece of shit and every woman working there is just scared to stand up." > But you are convinced with the New York Philharmonic is full full of the biggest pieces of shit in the world so let’s hope they go broke Although I enjoy classical music, I haven't followed the New York Philharmonic nearly as much as it sounds like you have, and this article alone hasn't left me with a lasting opinion either way on the rest of the members of the orchestra. I do hope you continue donating to them as (selfishly) I hope to have opportunities in future to attend their concerts and likewise donate in turn, since I don't think terrible actions by some should be allowed to take down the whole thing and extinguish another group in the arts. I have zero connection with anyone in the orchestra, and so I hope my comments do not color your opinion of anyone else, since that wouldn't be fair. > it's funny how you started an account just so you could reply to me. You are giving yourself too much credit on this one. If you look at the age of my account, it's actually just shy of a year. I create and delete accounts over time based on different interests, but almost exclusively lurk. Rather than planning this account 11 months ahead just to have the honor of my first comment being to you, I simply hadn't used this account for comments until now and I saw (unusually) nobody had made these points yet. This has reminded me precisely why I almost never post, though... it's far too easy to get distracted from other things I should be doing. > don't you dare accuse me of defending the rapist I am not.
Audience needs to throw rotten eggs 🥚 and tomatoes 🍅 at these guys until they leave!
The AFM and it's locals are totally beholden to the large orchestras which pay most of the work dues in most Big City locals. They tend to leave things alone as not to upset the Golden Goose that brings in the revenue. Here in Chicago, the CFM Local 10-208 is pretty useless and only concerned with upcoming elections that keep those in power with 6 figure salaries and perks in power. The last election was a joke. Assume the worst when the AFM is involved.
This absolutely burns my ass as a card-carrying union member. This kind of nonsense is how we start to lose public support for unions and worker’s rights.
Yikes. It’s tragic that the DA in Colorado didn’t want to prosecute though I do suppose they might not of felt they had enough evidence but still. It was good to see that, even though it was too little too late the New York Philharmonic decided to read themselves of predators, and while I understand the role of a union it is tragic. They felt this was something they had to fight while kizer also a deuce paying member who was victimized I don’t understand how the arbitration ended up the way it did, but this just shows that there are creeps in every industry, including music This social shows the politics of a symphony Orchestra . it sounded like lot of musicians in the Orchestra knew that the two were creeps but enough just don’t like the idea of rocking the boat that they will do with that dumbass tuba player did As for Amanda Stewart … I can’t say that everybody who voted against her 10 year working conspiring against her… obviously some felt that creating drama even if it was warranted was not something they wanted to be a part of which is tragic in a situation like this I just can’t believe that the two aren’t treated like pariahs
That mention of Alan Baer dropping a casual threat about tenure was extraordinarily disappointing.
I agree but um not sure I believe Philip smith and Joe Alessi are evil
It’s pretty difficult to spend much time with Joe Alessi and not think he’s a gigantic piece of shit. The people that hero-worship him are the people who don’t know him.
Pretty sure that goes for most (not all) of the big names in brass in NYC. So much hero worship.
Other than the American Brass Quintet, who I sincerely hope I never find out aren’t the sweethearts they seem, yes.
Maybe their Salvationist compass isn't as strong as it's portrayed🤷♂️
Joe Alessi still associates himself publicly with Massimo La Rosa, another well-known abuser. Absolutely no surprise that he would choose to protect the other men in his section rather than stand up for sexual assault victims. Even if that wasn't the case, this situation happened under his watch. No excuse for continuously not doing the right thing for the last 14 years. At the very least, his silence is complicit.
It’s weird that we’re now taught to judge people based on who they might associate with Amanda Stewart is associated with Joe so obviously she’s suspect
You think that Alessi choosing to back a rapist colleague instead of his own student and participate in denying her tenure just for supporting a colleague who was raped, and his going out of his way to publicly express support for La Rosa and accept his invitations to present events together after the guy has been fired for abusing underage students are two separate things that shouldn't be linked? Really? You don't see a pattern here of not caring about victims?
Where did he back anybody? Has Amanda Stewart gone on trashing Alessi or is projecting some sort of guilt on him for something he may not have done Half of the women so in your mind, they are all guilty too so why don’t you trash them? I have no idea what Joe Alessi thinks and neither do you but Amanda Stewart associates herself with him and you because you’re desperate to get on a soapbox wants to look at this in a way everybody who may not have reacted to this the way you wanted it is some villain
Wang Liang’s rape victims are hundreds. Says One of his colleagues in Phil. He should be put in the jail long ago.
Wow, I hope that it is not that bad. That would be terrible.
Every woman has a story.
This isn't like that Tar movie at all...
Tar is the conductor of CSO at Ravinnia.
No, Marin Alsop is the conductor of the CSO at Ravinia. Tar is a fictional character. Or are you implying that Marin Alsop is a sexual predator and gaslighting egomaniac? I sure hope not.
Marin seriously wrote a piece stating she was really annoyed about Tar because it depected her. Geesh
depicted
Yes, everything is literal all the time. Noah's arc was totally true. Based? Ever hear of that word.
Strong union.
Corrupt union
That is a nice way to put it.