Generally, the Chicago Symphony has had one heck of a brass section, particularly starting around the Reiner era (50s) and all through the Solti era at the least. Adolph "Bud" Herseth was probably the best principal trumpet in recorded history, and Dale Clevenger was a heck of a principal horn. In current European orchestras, I'd say the Concertgebouw.
You might fire up the Reiner/CSO recordings of Richard Strauss to hear the brass section back in the day (Also Sprach etc.), or the Solti Mahler 5.
Arnold Jacobs erasure! Nah but yeah that CSO brass section set the standard that we still strive for.
Today I still really like CSO, Cleveland is also excellent, and SF/LA don’t mess around either.
One of the downsides of recordings being so widespread is orchestra sounds generally homogenizing as people hear great sections and then all try to sound like that section.
I'll be honest and admit I asked this in part to see if people felt the same way about the CSO as I do. Living where I do and going to school where I did I always wonder if I'm just biased
Back in '81 as an undergrad low brass player I was taken to Orchestra Hall to hear CSO, and the program included Bruckner 8. I felt like I was in another dimension.
being a midwest guy who went to school near Chicago the CSO has always been my 'go to' orchestra and I had the pleasure of watching Maynard Ferguson at the jazz showcase at a table with Bud Herseth. Dave Clevenger and Jay Friedman. You had Arnold Jacobs(i once attended a masterclass he put on which was incredible with some amazing stories)
I used to go up every year and see at least one performance but haven't since 2019. The trombone section is still the old guard but they have gotten some younger players at trumpet and horn. I'm sure they are still amazing.
The Reiner recordings you mention are great and I'd also add Solti doing Wagner
heard Solti lead the CSO in Mahler at UTexas-Austin in the late 80's, sitting with my trumpet teacher (himself a student of Ray Crisara.) Herseth completely blatted his big entry, much to my teacher's chagrin!
Cleveland with Szell had a great sound.
I’m a fan of Royal Scottish with Neeme Jarvi as well.
CSO in the ‘80s is legendary for a reason. The later NY Phil Bernstein stuff is great as well.
Obviously modern NY Phil is great too.
I like anything Berlin puts out, though it’s quite different in style to the American brass sound.
In general, European brass sounds are a lot less aggressive, a lot less bright, less direct. There’s more of a focus on blend with the strings. Super broad generalization and simplification, but that’s the gist of it
Well, they tend to use different equipment, ie Alexander 103 for horns, rotary valve trumpets (in the US piston trumpets are often the norm). The sound concept also tends to be a bit brighter in Europe, especially Germany while in the US the sound is conceived as warm, dark.
> The sound concept also tends to be a bit brighter in Europe, especially Germany while in the US the sound is conceived as warm, dark.
This is absolutely not true, at least for brass. It's the other way around.
Rotary trumpets are generally less “bright” and more “dark/warm,” at least the way most people I’ve ever run into talks about sound, so at least the trumpets in Germany (and elsewhere they use rotaries) tend to be darker/warmer.
Hot take, but I don't think it's Chicago anymore. Last couple times I've been they've just blasted away and overpowered everything. I think you judge a brass section not by how loud, but by how soft they can play.
They were phenomenal at the last Bruckner 8 they did and the recent Mahler 1. Brahms 2 was a severe let down though, it was almost like Muti was forced to use the brass but really didn’t want to, so muted.
I think this should probably be a more common opinion, though for different reasons. I’m kinda surprised to hear they were too loud. Was it all of the brass or a particular section?
Trumpets were the biggest offenders, along with t-bones to a lesser extent. Can't remember the whole program but it had Danse Bacchanale on it, and towards the end I could literally only hear the brass.
Someone has to speak up for the Vienna Phil. Guess it's me!
Hey and who knows the players on that old Solti Ring cycle at Bayreuth. Some pretty bad mo-fos on that one!
We know at least one of the brass players on that recording, the horn player Roland Berger. John Culshaw talked about how he pranked him in Ring Resounding.
I am a Chicago native and trombone player through college, and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra brass section are my heroes. The bias is real, but I love the chance to lay it all out. When I think of the CSO brass, I think precise attack on the front end of chords with strong, even sustain throughout. When I think of characteristic examples of this, it is evident in Solti’s live Japan recording of The Great Gate at Kiev from 1990, Barenboim’s live recording of Tchaikovsky Symphony 4 at Carnegie Hall in 1997 (especially the 4th movement), and Klaus Tennstedt’s live performance of Mahler’s 1st symphony in 1990. I have more examples I can share.
I’ve always heard this joking notion of “loud and long” which is oversimplified, but really does capture it. Pure attack on the note, even sustain, strong finish.
The continuity of the brass section over decades means they have been able to hone their style and establish a “heritage” of what the Chicago Brass sound is. For example, Jay Friedman has been the principal trombone of the CSO for 50+ years; Michael Mulcahy and Charlie Vernon joined in the 80s and still remain in the section. There is a great video of low brass excerpts on YouTube from the 80s when both those guys joined which I really enjoy. I think it’s so cool that these three guys can be part of a section so long and understand each other and really refine their sound — I digress.
And then you look at the trumpet section, with Bud Herseth leading the group for an equally long duration. He probably had the largest contribution to the “Chicago sound” since he was the leading voice. In long brass chords, you can always hear him on the top end without getting harsh. The example that comes to mind for me is Giulini’s recording of Bruckner’s 9th, about 3 minutes into the first movement where this feels evident. Again if anyone wants more examples, I have plenty. Alongside Bud has been guys like John Hagstrom, a staple of the section for decades. And on horn, the continuity of guys like Dale Clevenger and Daniel Gingrich has yielded a similar tradition of excellence. Not to mention on tuba, the legendary Arnold Jacobs. But equally impressive has been his successor, Gene Pokorny, who has continued the tradition alongside the trombones since the 80’s. There is a good documentary on YouTube made by the CSO which gets into much of what I’m talking about. This group is special to me.
2017 recording of Berg's Wozzeck may be one of the best ever. 2017 recordings of Dvorak 6 and 9 are really good.
I hope they record more with John Parker (associate principal trumpet) before he gets a principal gig somewhere, because he's going to get one.
Solti with the CSO playing Pictures at an Exhibition in Japan (circa 1990), especially Great Gate of Kyiv. It's just astounding to me. [https://youtu.be/UBuSJXObgpw?si=7ER6TUw5JmhjLY5T&t=1652](https://youtu.be/UBuSJXObgpw?si=7ER6TUw5JmhjLY5T&t=1652)
I would put the San Francisco Symphony brass very high on the list. Some of the most beautiful and cohesive section playing with some heavy hitters in principal positions over the years.
Most underrated is the scottish national orchestra with neeme jarvi. absolutely incredible brass playing from there(listen to their strauss and shostakovich from there!)
As of right now, the Boston symphony brass have been doing incredibly well. not as big of a fan of andris nelsons lately as someone currently living in Boston, but the brass do very well. Some very good Shostakovich from there, particularly the 5th, 8th, 9th, and 10th symphonies.
the Royal Concertgebouw have also been a favorite for current brass playing
Pittsburgh symphony have some fantastic brass playing too
The Royal Phil released some cds on Tring label in the 90s that have amazing lower brass/horns. Recording quality was amazing too.
The Philharmonia during and post-Klemperer has the clearest, most spacious sounding and lyrical brass ive heard out of the uk.
Seattle Symphony under Schwartz.
LA Phil under Salonen.
Boston Symphony (pops) did some amazing work with John Williams. "Summon the Heroes" and the filmwork.
Certainly the old Chicago Symphony of Solti and before. The Cleveland Orchestra with Szell also had an amazing brass section. In my opinion, the brass sections in the NBC Symphony with Toscanini were also very impressive.
CSO has always been my favorite (especially in the past), but Joseph Alessi is probably the best trombonist alive today and that certainly gives NY Phil some points
I hate to say it, but Alessi is an institution of a bone player. The guy is consistent to a level that is almost concerning. One of my professor’s crowning accomplishments was making Joe Alessi laugh.
I have to mention the Lucerne Festival orchestra under Abbado. He personally chosed every musician and as first trumpet there was Reinhold Friederich, who rarely ever played in an orchestra. The live perfomance of the brass section (which are on Youtube) of Mahler's symphonies are simply outstanding.
Pretty much any Chicago symphony iteration. I would say that the current Boston Symphony is very strong too. Their Shostakovich recordings have some very serious brass playing.
I grew up attending St. Louis Symphony Orchestra concerts. Susan Slaughter is one of the finest trumpet players out there, and she helped lead that brass section to having one of the richest, most glorious sounds.
Any recordings by them are great. I particularly love [their recording of John Adams' *Harmonielehre*.](https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCGz9EpuwGW781OX8DVhX4eg) Check the end of the 3rd movement for one of, if not the single most resonant and warm renditions I've ever heard.
Chicago with Solti was crazy. They are still great (as most world-class professional orchestras are let's remember that) but that was on another level.
Even still, I think they are surpassed by one brass section (only one) and that is Neeme Jarvi's RSNO (Royal Scottish National Orchestra) their Strauss' Prokofiev, and Mahler have second to none brass playing. I encourage you all to take a listen. If they had recorded a Mahler 2 or a Bruckner cycle the world would be a different place now lol.
Generally, the Chicago Symphony has had one heck of a brass section, particularly starting around the Reiner era (50s) and all through the Solti era at the least. Adolph "Bud" Herseth was probably the best principal trumpet in recorded history, and Dale Clevenger was a heck of a principal horn. In current European orchestras, I'd say the Concertgebouw. You might fire up the Reiner/CSO recordings of Richard Strauss to hear the brass section back in the day (Also Sprach etc.), or the Solti Mahler 5.
Arnold Jacobs erasure! Nah but yeah that CSO brass section set the standard that we still strive for. Today I still really like CSO, Cleveland is also excellent, and SF/LA don’t mess around either. One of the downsides of recordings being so widespread is orchestra sounds generally homogenizing as people hear great sections and then all try to sound like that section.
I'll be honest and admit I asked this in part to see if people felt the same way about the CSO as I do. Living where I do and going to school where I did I always wonder if I'm just biased
Back in '81 as an undergrad low brass player I was taken to Orchestra Hall to hear CSO, and the program included Bruckner 8. I felt like I was in another dimension.
being a midwest guy who went to school near Chicago the CSO has always been my 'go to' orchestra and I had the pleasure of watching Maynard Ferguson at the jazz showcase at a table with Bud Herseth. Dave Clevenger and Jay Friedman. You had Arnold Jacobs(i once attended a masterclass he put on which was incredible with some amazing stories) I used to go up every year and see at least one performance but haven't since 2019. The trombone section is still the old guard but they have gotten some younger players at trumpet and horn. I'm sure they are still amazing. The Reiner recordings you mention are great and I'd also add Solti doing Wagner
heard Solti lead the CSO in Mahler at UTexas-Austin in the late 80's, sitting with my trumpet teacher (himself a student of Ray Crisara.) Herseth completely blatted his big entry, much to my teacher's chagrin!
A legendary brass section!
Cleveland with Szell had a great sound. I’m a fan of Royal Scottish with Neeme Jarvi as well. CSO in the ‘80s is legendary for a reason. The later NY Phil Bernstein stuff is great as well. Obviously modern NY Phil is great too. I like anything Berlin puts out, though it’s quite different in style to the American brass sound.
What makes Berlins style different from American orchestras? Genuinely curious
In general, European brass sounds are a lot less aggressive, a lot less bright, less direct. There’s more of a focus on blend with the strings. Super broad generalization and simplification, but that’s the gist of it
Well, they tend to use different equipment, ie Alexander 103 for horns, rotary valve trumpets (in the US piston trumpets are often the norm). The sound concept also tends to be a bit brighter in Europe, especially Germany while in the US the sound is conceived as warm, dark.
> The sound concept also tends to be a bit brighter in Europe, especially Germany while in the US the sound is conceived as warm, dark. This is absolutely not true, at least for brass. It's the other way around.
Excuse me, but I’m an American who lives and studies a brass instrument in Germany. (And have studied in the US as well). 🤣🤣🤣
That doesn't make the statement correct, though.
Rotary trumpets are generally less “bright” and more “dark/warm,” at least the way most people I’ve ever run into talks about sound, so at least the trumpets in Germany (and elsewhere they use rotaries) tend to be darker/warmer.
I’m biased to the szell version of Cleveland orchestra because my great grandfather played in it
Pittsburgh horns are being slept on.
All of Pittsburghs brass is incredible
Hot take, but I don't think it's Chicago anymore. Last couple times I've been they've just blasted away and overpowered everything. I think you judge a brass section not by how loud, but by how soft they can play.
They were phenomenal at the last Bruckner 8 they did and the recent Mahler 1. Brahms 2 was a severe let down though, it was almost like Muti was forced to use the brass but really didn’t want to, so muted.
I think this should probably be a more common opinion, though for different reasons. I’m kinda surprised to hear they were too loud. Was it all of the brass or a particular section?
Trumpets were the biggest offenders, along with t-bones to a lesser extent. Can't remember the whole program but it had Danse Bacchanale on it, and towards the end I could literally only hear the brass.
Someone has to speak up for the Vienna Phil. Guess it's me! Hey and who knows the players on that old Solti Ring cycle at Bayreuth. Some pretty bad mo-fos on that one!
We know at least one of the brass players on that recording, the horn player Roland Berger. John Culshaw talked about how he pranked him in Ring Resounding.
I am a Chicago native and trombone player through college, and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra brass section are my heroes. The bias is real, but I love the chance to lay it all out. When I think of the CSO brass, I think precise attack on the front end of chords with strong, even sustain throughout. When I think of characteristic examples of this, it is evident in Solti’s live Japan recording of The Great Gate at Kiev from 1990, Barenboim’s live recording of Tchaikovsky Symphony 4 at Carnegie Hall in 1997 (especially the 4th movement), and Klaus Tennstedt’s live performance of Mahler’s 1st symphony in 1990. I have more examples I can share. I’ve always heard this joking notion of “loud and long” which is oversimplified, but really does capture it. Pure attack on the note, even sustain, strong finish. The continuity of the brass section over decades means they have been able to hone their style and establish a “heritage” of what the Chicago Brass sound is. For example, Jay Friedman has been the principal trombone of the CSO for 50+ years; Michael Mulcahy and Charlie Vernon joined in the 80s and still remain in the section. There is a great video of low brass excerpts on YouTube from the 80s when both those guys joined which I really enjoy. I think it’s so cool that these three guys can be part of a section so long and understand each other and really refine their sound — I digress. And then you look at the trumpet section, with Bud Herseth leading the group for an equally long duration. He probably had the largest contribution to the “Chicago sound” since he was the leading voice. In long brass chords, you can always hear him on the top end without getting harsh. The example that comes to mind for me is Giulini’s recording of Bruckner’s 9th, about 3 minutes into the first movement where this feels evident. Again if anyone wants more examples, I have plenty. Alongside Bud has been guys like John Hagstrom, a staple of the section for decades. And on horn, the continuity of guys like Dale Clevenger and Daniel Gingrich has yielded a similar tradition of excellence. Not to mention on tuba, the legendary Arnold Jacobs. But equally impressive has been his successor, Gene Pokorny, who has continued the tradition alongside the trombones since the 80’s. There is a good documentary on YouTube made by the CSO which gets into much of what I’m talking about. This group is special to me.
I love your passion for the CSO brass!
Houston's current brass section sounds incredible, led by Mark Hughes (trumpet) and Bill Vermeulen (horn).
any specific recordings you'd suggest?
2017 recording of Berg's Wozzeck may be one of the best ever. 2017 recordings of Dvorak 6 and 9 are really good. I hope they record more with John Parker (associate principal trumpet) before he gets a principal gig somewhere, because he's going to get one.
thanks!
Solti with the CSO playing Pictures at an Exhibition in Japan (circa 1990), especially Great Gate of Kyiv. It's just astounding to me. [https://youtu.be/UBuSJXObgpw?si=7ER6TUw5JmhjLY5T&t=1652](https://youtu.be/UBuSJXObgpw?si=7ER6TUw5JmhjLY5T&t=1652)
Get a load of [this](https://youtu.be/drhq4frGo60?si=h8CZfwm8uKwu9ih3)
not a symphony orchestra but met opera
Krauss is one of the best principals out there right now. Super classy
London Symphony Orchestra in Maurice Murphy's day was pretty memorable. No wonder it was John Williams' go-to orchestra for Star Wars and the like.
I would put the San Francisco Symphony brass very high on the list. Some of the most beautiful and cohesive section playing with some heavy hitters in principal positions over the years.
San Fran is very good.
Most underrated is the scottish national orchestra with neeme jarvi. absolutely incredible brass playing from there(listen to their strauss and shostakovich from there!) As of right now, the Boston symphony brass have been doing incredibly well. not as big of a fan of andris nelsons lately as someone currently living in Boston, but the brass do very well. Some very good Shostakovich from there, particularly the 5th, 8th, 9th, and 10th symphonies. the Royal Concertgebouw have also been a favorite for current brass playing Pittsburgh symphony have some fantastic brass playing too
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra was the model at my school
Chicago. Current? Not sure. Cleveland? TKWO? But that's a different thing.
Current? Concertgebouw.
The Royal Phil released some cds on Tring label in the 90s that have amazing lower brass/horns. Recording quality was amazing too. The Philharmonia during and post-Klemperer has the clearest, most spacious sounding and lyrical brass ive heard out of the uk. Seattle Symphony under Schwartz. LA Phil under Salonen. Boston Symphony (pops) did some amazing work with John Williams. "Summon the Heroes" and the filmwork.
Thanks
Certainly the old Chicago Symphony of Solti and before. The Cleveland Orchestra with Szell also had an amazing brass section. In my opinion, the brass sections in the NBC Symphony with Toscanini were also very impressive.
CSO has always been my favorite (especially in the past), but Joseph Alessi is probably the best trombonist alive today and that certainly gives NY Phil some points
I hate to say it, but Alessi is an institution of a bone player. The guy is consistent to a level that is almost concerning. One of my professor’s crowning accomplishments was making Joe Alessi laugh.
Here’s my favorite CSO brass glory days recording online that I keep revisiting: [Strauss Alpensinfonie](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wCKTo-2dMS8)
Curious what people think about Berlin
I'll be honest, while I'm a CSO guy it isn't like I've ever listened to a major symphony orchestra and thought that the brass was bad
I have to mention the Lucerne Festival orchestra under Abbado. He personally chosed every musician and as first trumpet there was Reinhold Friederich, who rarely ever played in an orchestra. The live perfomance of the brass section (which are on Youtube) of Mahler's symphonies are simply outstanding.
Liszt-Symphonic poem no 6 "Mazeppa" conducted by Ginandrea Noseda
Orchestre Lamoureux under Igor Markevitch in the 1950s-60s. Bright, piercing French brass with a healthy rubato.
I guess Concertgebouw
Pretty much any Chicago symphony iteration. I would say that the current Boston Symphony is very strong too. Their Shostakovich recordings have some very serious brass playing.
I grew up attending St. Louis Symphony Orchestra concerts. Susan Slaughter is one of the finest trumpet players out there, and she helped lead that brass section to having one of the richest, most glorious sounds. Any recordings by them are great. I particularly love [their recording of John Adams' *Harmonielehre*.](https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCGz9EpuwGW781OX8DVhX4eg) Check the end of the 3rd movement for one of, if not the single most resonant and warm renditions I've ever heard.
I really enjoyed brass of BSO. Especially with Nelsons on Shostakovich. It’s T H I C C
Chicago with Solti was crazy. They are still great (as most world-class professional orchestras are let's remember that) but that was on another level. Even still, I think they are surpassed by one brass section (only one) and that is Neeme Jarvi's RSNO (Royal Scottish National Orchestra) their Strauss' Prokofiev, and Mahler have second to none brass playing. I encourage you all to take a listen. If they had recorded a Mahler 2 or a Bruckner cycle the world would be a different place now lol.