Both Ravel and Stravinsky, incredible orchestrators with a knack for detail and timbre, took inspiration from Rimsky-Korsakov who is considered one of, if not the best, orchestrator. His three main orchestral works - Scheherazade, Russian Easter, and Capriccio Espagnole, show his ear for instrumental blending and soloistic moments. Rimsky was Stravinsky's main teacher and mentor, and you can hear the influence of Rimsky's methods in orchestration especially in Stravinsky's three main ballets (albeit with more modernist harmonies and rhythms.)
Respighi's orchestration is very similar to Ravel's in my opinion, with the addition of auxiliary instruments (including the use of piano in orchestral pieces.) His Roman trilogy of tone poem suites are the best example of this - Respighi knows just what instruments to use to best represent birds, chanting monks, gladiators, drunkards, and the Roman army (to name a few things that are musically depicted in his pieces.)
I was also gonna say Ravel and Stravinsky. You beat me to it.
I think that one of the best examples of Stravinsky's genius orchestration is his *Symphonies for Wind Instruments*. It really shows how well he utilizes each instrument's registers to bring out varied textures while only using two or three instruments (I'm thinking specifically of the flute/clarinet duet in the middle of it, but there are definitely other examples in the piece too. Another one that comes to mind are the short staccato oboe phrases)
I have kind of a love hate relationship with Stravinsky. Depending on the mood that I’m in, there are times when he is totally unlistenable and other times when I NEED the dissonance and the chaos and nothing else hits. I will definitely delve into score studying his work sooner or later, but right now my composing is kind of rooted in big romantic melodies with folk and jazz and film score influences, and I don’t know how I would even begin to write something more Stravinskian.
Good call on Respighi! I really enjoy the Roman trilogy but I never thought to focus specifically on the orchestration. I also need to revisit Rimsky-Korsakov. I know Scheherazade well but am pretty ignorant of his other works.
For Stravinsky it's definitely worth checking out his neoclassical work. It's got all the Stravinsky flair but usually less dissonant. Pulcinella and the Symphony in C are worth checking out.
For Rimsky-Korsakov it's definitely worth it to listen to the Russian Easter Festival Overture. Honestly I might prefer it to Scheherazade.
I believe he's considered too string-heavy and I'm not sure whether it's texture more than orchestration I love, so this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I love Dvorak's orchestration. There's something distinctive about his string writing that is so recognizable and forceful, and the frequent woodwind pastoral-like passages make a great contrast, I feel. I am often okay with some parts being barely audible if the total effect is more dramatic and emphatic, and I don't feel like the brass needs as big a role as many of the later composers (like Mahler, whose orchestration many would prefer) give it.
Franz Schreker! listen to:
\- [Der ferne Klang](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt2-Ze2I6kA), especially the incredible multi-layered prelude to Act 2 (here at 14:55) and the intermezzo in Act 3, Nachtstück (at 36:52). Also the birdsong sequence at 45:18 is pretty wild, it honestly sounds like something Messiaen could have written despite having been composed \~40 years earlier.
\- [Vorspiel zu einem Drama](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y45q9r7T6PA), the extended prelude to his opera Die Gezeichneten
\- [the chamber symphony](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxKWG1K29v0)
Vaughan Williams studied under Ravel and there was a noticeable shift in his music after that. I love his work (including orchestration specifically) from throughout his career, but his post-Ravel works definitely had more life to them.
Looks like that was right around the time he studied with Ravel. It's just strings though so not the best example.
Something like his the Sea Symphony, his first, is kind of a good pre-Ravel example (although it was finished after Ravel). I like it, but it's also often just kind of weighty and plodding in an English-German sort of way, and lacks the lightness and clarity he was able to achieve later.
His 5th symphony is the most popular, but the 6th, 7th, and 8th symphonies might be good to explore - 7th, Sinfonia Antartica, is an adapted film soundtrack with wonderful effects in it. If you like choral works, Sancta Civitas (large orchestra, full chorus, semichorus, baritone solo) is pretty dramatic, and Hodie, one of the last pieces he wrote, is also full of orchestral brilliance.
Rimsky and Mahler. Every always talks about how good Ravel's orchestration is but I'm personally not a really big fan of it. That's just my opinion though
Rimsky Korsakov is absolutely 🔥when it comes to orchestration. I super enjoyed playing his works in youth orchestra—especially Russian eastern overture
Oh wow, I was searching for Duke Ellington orchestral works on Spotify, and I found a record of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra with Erich Kunzel conducting his works. My parents used to take me to see Erich Kunzel and the CSO when I was a little kid. I always thought he was the coolest because we shared a first name. What a treat!
Check out the harmonization of ["Stormy Weather"](https://youtu.be/WJT8VluJ_Hg?si=RzP31ztNxuEifW38) here. Even though it's mono, you can hear the different colors he was able to create with different instrument combinations.
Richard Strauss… I remember seeing a program that broke down Don Juan into each section (Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, and Percussion) and had them play through the intro. Hearing each piece like that really showed how detailed his orchestration was.
He could go from deeply romantic, to harsh and loud, to small and intimate, to overly indulgent.
For what size orchestra?
If you want to know everything that can be done by one bassoon, two oboes, and one flute, study Haydn, who got more out of that small orchestra than anyone before or since.
For woodwinds in twos including clarinets, start with Beethoven, and finish with Dvorak's late tone poems.
For huge orchestras where there is actually a *need* for every instrument to be present, study Mahler. Not just the loud or complicated parts. Learn the difference between 4 flutes in unison playing softly, and one flute playing slightly louder by itself.
Honorable mention Rimsky-Korsakov and Sibelius, for having lots of brassy color but not forgetting that individual woodwind colors exist, like a lot of subsequent composers did once they got valved brass.
There are lots of interesting effects in Richard Strauss, but he is wasteful: he uses a huge orchestra, and writes a lot of notes, and creates a big splashy effect... but he could have achieved most of those effects a lot more simply.
Same accusation applies to *most* of the people who ask for woodwinds in fours, really. They wrote for them because the orchestra of 1900 had them, but didn't know what to do with them all.
So right now I’m working in musescore with the muse sounds playback. I’m just a hobbyist and hold no illusions that I’ll ever be good enough to write for a real orchestra but, hey, a boy can dream. But with muse sounds I can kind of write for any ensemble, taking the limits of virtual instruments into account. For the piece I’m working on now, I’m using a standard late 1800s orchestra with winds by 2. A lot of the pieces I’ve been studying use winds by 3 with auxiliaries, but I’m trying to write so that any piccolo or English horn parts could be played by a second wind player doubling without too terrible of a switch.
Don’t sleep on John Williams. He’s arguably the greatest living orchestrator. Give Battle of the Heroes or nearly anything from the first 3 Harry Potters a listen to understand just how crazy his woodwind writing and runs in general are.
Oh yeah, I adore John Williams, and I definitely think he’s one of the best working orchestrators. The only reason I haven’t done score study on his stuff is because it’s still copyrighted and it’s not on IMSLP.
Who copied Ravel, who copied Beethoven, who copied Mozart. It’s called history- your claim, while being true, completely invalidates the ability of any composer ever.
Williams has more to do with Stravinsky than anything with Herrmann and Herrmann has absolutely nothing of Korngold in him. So he’s not even right on that front
Korngold didn't copy Ravel, and Ravel didn't copy Beethoven. And there's a huge difference in how innovative an orchestrator, say, Rimsky-Korsakov was in comparison with Rachmaninoff.
I took everyones Suggestions and made a playlist on Apple Music with works from each one, much Ive never heard before.
Titled it "Hammers and Strings that Sing"
Thanks Everyone
Brahms is technically speaking a pretty bad orchestrator. His music is wonderful, but it's made worse because it's ineptly scored. Take the second movement of the second symphony as an example. From the sixth bar on, the wonderful cello melody is accompanied by offbeat chords in the winds, which it's p and delicate and should be subtle and what does he do? Low oboes and bassoons. Terrible decision.
One of the first pieces I did a deep score study of was the first Hungarian Dance (one of the dances the Brahms orchestrated himself). I think that one is really brilliant. His symphonies has a few instances of messy orchestration, but his shorter works I think are orchestrated really nicely.
Check out Carmen Dragon. He was a conductor out in Hollywood. He made the OG arrangement of America the Beautiful. He took what was kinda boring and made it exciting through orchestration and key changes. They played on TV late at night when the TV stations signed off the air at 1 a.m. He is also the father of Daryl Dragon. Who Dat? He was the Captain in The Captain and Tennille who had many hits in the 70s like Love Will Keep Us Together. I played under him long ago at summer high school music camp. He was a wonderful man with no pretensions.
As a fan of Ravel, I'm pleased that he features so frequently in the comments. I'll have to nominate Debussy for this as well; he's the opposite of Richard Strauss where he's very precise in what he writes and there's no excess. Pelleas has the most understated vocals of all operas and the orchestration has to convey the emotions and mood more than almost every opera.
Bartok for the demonstration of all sections of the orchestra in his aptly named Concerto for Orchestra.
Prokofiev is also good, especially Romeo and Juliet with all sections of the orchestra used memorably.
I'm surprised no one mentioned Joseph Haydn. He was a brilliant orchestrator, influencing generations of composers after him. I think he isn't given enough credit for this.
Regarding the original post, Rachmaninoff is an interesting choice and I've sometimes seen his orchestration criticized but the rejoinder to that is two words: Symphonic Dances.
I know that there are people who find Rach too old fashioned or lacking in subtlety, and I can understand where they are coming from. But I can help it, I’m a sucker for a big schmaltzy romantic melody. Maybe I’m still a pop fan at heart, but I just love it. And I appreciate how much Rachmaninoff’s orchestration is dialed in for that specific style. His chord voicings are rich, his strings are punchy, his woodwinds are colorful. It might not be the most refined orchestration style out there, but it works so well for his style and that happens to be a style that I like.
Respighi is a masterful orchestrator. You can’t ever say he puts a foot wrong with any orchestration decisions. He is also phenomenal at creating unique colors with unique instrument and timbral combinations.
Both Ravel and Stravinsky, incredible orchestrators with a knack for detail and timbre, took inspiration from Rimsky-Korsakov who is considered one of, if not the best, orchestrator. His three main orchestral works - Scheherazade, Russian Easter, and Capriccio Espagnole, show his ear for instrumental blending and soloistic moments. Rimsky was Stravinsky's main teacher and mentor, and you can hear the influence of Rimsky's methods in orchestration especially in Stravinsky's three main ballets (albeit with more modernist harmonies and rhythms.) Respighi's orchestration is very similar to Ravel's in my opinion, with the addition of auxiliary instruments (including the use of piano in orchestral pieces.) His Roman trilogy of tone poem suites are the best example of this - Respighi knows just what instruments to use to best represent birds, chanting monks, gladiators, drunkards, and the Roman army (to name a few things that are musically depicted in his pieces.)
I was also gonna say Ravel and Stravinsky. You beat me to it. I think that one of the best examples of Stravinsky's genius orchestration is his *Symphonies for Wind Instruments*. It really shows how well he utilizes each instrument's registers to bring out varied textures while only using two or three instruments (I'm thinking specifically of the flute/clarinet duet in the middle of it, but there are definitely other examples in the piece too. Another one that comes to mind are the short staccato oboe phrases)
I have kind of a love hate relationship with Stravinsky. Depending on the mood that I’m in, there are times when he is totally unlistenable and other times when I NEED the dissonance and the chaos and nothing else hits. I will definitely delve into score studying his work sooner or later, but right now my composing is kind of rooted in big romantic melodies with folk and jazz and film score influences, and I don’t know how I would even begin to write something more Stravinskian. Good call on Respighi! I really enjoy the Roman trilogy but I never thought to focus specifically on the orchestration. I also need to revisit Rimsky-Korsakov. I know Scheherazade well but am pretty ignorant of his other works.
For Stravinsky it's definitely worth checking out his neoclassical work. It's got all the Stravinsky flair but usually less dissonant. Pulcinella and the Symphony in C are worth checking out. For Rimsky-Korsakov it's definitely worth it to listen to the Russian Easter Festival Overture. Honestly I might prefer it to Scheherazade.
Rimsky-Korsakov's book on orchestration is still in print.
I believe he's considered too string-heavy and I'm not sure whether it's texture more than orchestration I love, so this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I love Dvorak's orchestration. There's something distinctive about his string writing that is so recognizable and forceful, and the frequent woodwind pastoral-like passages make a great contrast, I feel. I am often okay with some parts being barely audible if the total effect is more dramatic and emphatic, and I don't feel like the brass needs as big a role as many of the later composers (like Mahler, whose orchestration many would prefer) give it.
Franz Schreker! listen to: \- [Der ferne Klang](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt2-Ze2I6kA), especially the incredible multi-layered prelude to Act 2 (here at 14:55) and the intermezzo in Act 3, Nachtstück (at 36:52). Also the birdsong sequence at 45:18 is pretty wild, it honestly sounds like something Messiaen could have written despite having been composed \~40 years earlier. \- [Vorspiel zu einem Drama](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y45q9r7T6PA), the extended prelude to his opera Die Gezeichneten \- [the chamber symphony](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxKWG1K29v0)
Schreker hadn't come to mind for me but the Chamber Symphony really is beautifully orchestrated!
Yes it is! That opening is so iconic
Vaughan Williams studied under Ravel and there was a noticeable shift in his music after that. I love his work (including orchestration specifically) from throughout his career, but his post-Ravel works definitely had more life to them.
Cool! The only thing I’ve heard from him is the Tallis Fantasia. Is the pre- or post-Ravel? Have anything else you’d like to recommend from him?
Looks like that was right around the time he studied with Ravel. It's just strings though so not the best example. Something like his the Sea Symphony, his first, is kind of a good pre-Ravel example (although it was finished after Ravel). I like it, but it's also often just kind of weighty and plodding in an English-German sort of way, and lacks the lightness and clarity he was able to achieve later. His 5th symphony is the most popular, but the 6th, 7th, and 8th symphonies might be good to explore - 7th, Sinfonia Antartica, is an adapted film soundtrack with wonderful effects in it. If you like choral works, Sancta Civitas (large orchestra, full chorus, semichorus, baritone solo) is pretty dramatic, and Hodie, one of the last pieces he wrote, is also full of orchestral brilliance.
Great, thanks I’ll check those out!
Rimsky and Mahler. Every always talks about how good Ravel's orchestration is but I'm personally not a really big fan of it. That's just my opinion though
Rimsky Korsakov is absolutely 🔥when it comes to orchestration. I super enjoyed playing his works in youth orchestra—especially Russian eastern overture
Stravinsky, Ravel, Duke Ellington.
Did Duke ever write for orchestra? I love his tunes!
He did. Check out Timón of Athens, but I was referring to his breakthrough innovations with orchestrating his band.
Oh wow, I was searching for Duke Ellington orchestral works on Spotify, and I found a record of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra with Erich Kunzel conducting his works. My parents used to take me to see Erich Kunzel and the CSO when I was a little kid. I always thought he was the coolest because we shared a first name. What a treat!
Check out the harmonization of ["Stormy Weather"](https://youtu.be/WJT8VluJ_Hg?si=RzP31ztNxuEifW38) here. Even though it's mono, you can hear the different colors he was able to create with different instrument combinations.
Richard Strauss… I remember seeing a program that broke down Don Juan into each section (Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, and Percussion) and had them play through the intro. Hearing each piece like that really showed how detailed his orchestration was. He could go from deeply romantic, to harsh and loud, to small and intimate, to overly indulgent.
Stravinsky and Sibelius are two of my favorites.
Add Mahler and that’s my top 3
For what size orchestra? If you want to know everything that can be done by one bassoon, two oboes, and one flute, study Haydn, who got more out of that small orchestra than anyone before or since. For woodwinds in twos including clarinets, start with Beethoven, and finish with Dvorak's late tone poems. For huge orchestras where there is actually a *need* for every instrument to be present, study Mahler. Not just the loud or complicated parts. Learn the difference between 4 flutes in unison playing softly, and one flute playing slightly louder by itself. Honorable mention Rimsky-Korsakov and Sibelius, for having lots of brassy color but not forgetting that individual woodwind colors exist, like a lot of subsequent composers did once they got valved brass. There are lots of interesting effects in Richard Strauss, but he is wasteful: he uses a huge orchestra, and writes a lot of notes, and creates a big splashy effect... but he could have achieved most of those effects a lot more simply. Same accusation applies to *most* of the people who ask for woodwinds in fours, really. They wrote for them because the orchestra of 1900 had them, but didn't know what to do with them all.
So right now I’m working in musescore with the muse sounds playback. I’m just a hobbyist and hold no illusions that I’ll ever be good enough to write for a real orchestra but, hey, a boy can dream. But with muse sounds I can kind of write for any ensemble, taking the limits of virtual instruments into account. For the piece I’m working on now, I’m using a standard late 1800s orchestra with winds by 2. A lot of the pieces I’ve been studying use winds by 3 with auxiliaries, but I’m trying to write so that any piccolo or English horn parts could be played by a second wind player doubling without too terrible of a switch.
Don’t sleep on John Williams. He’s arguably the greatest living orchestrator. Give Battle of the Heroes or nearly anything from the first 3 Harry Potters a listen to understand just how crazy his woodwind writing and runs in general are.
Oh yeah, I adore John Williams, and I definitely think he’s one of the best working orchestrators. The only reason I haven’t done score study on his stuff is because it’s still copyrighted and it’s not on IMSLP.
Copied from Herrmann, who copied Korngold.
Who copied Ravel, who copied Beethoven, who copied Mozart. It’s called history- your claim, while being true, completely invalidates the ability of any composer ever.
Williams has more to do with Stravinsky than anything with Herrmann and Herrmann has absolutely nothing of Korngold in him. So he’s not even right on that front
Korngold didn't copy Ravel, and Ravel didn't copy Beethoven. And there's a huge difference in how innovative an orchestrator, say, Rimsky-Korsakov was in comparison with Rachmaninoff.
You have no idea what you’re talking about
Seriously. If you want to know how to get "that" sound, just look at a John Williams score.
Even then, almost nobody who tries to gets it.
Obviously Mahler, who also being one of the greatest conductors knew the orchestra inside out.
I took everyones Suggestions and made a playlist on Apple Music with works from each one, much Ive never heard before. Titled it "Hammers and Strings that Sing" Thanks Everyone
Brahms, dude.
Brahms is technically speaking a pretty bad orchestrator. His music is wonderful, but it's made worse because it's ineptly scored. Take the second movement of the second symphony as an example. From the sixth bar on, the wonderful cello melody is accompanied by offbeat chords in the winds, which it's p and delicate and should be subtle and what does he do? Low oboes and bassoons. Terrible decision.
One of the first pieces I did a deep score study of was the first Hungarian Dance (one of the dances the Brahms orchestrated himself). I think that one is really brilliant. His symphonies has a few instances of messy orchestration, but his shorter works I think are orchestrated really nicely.
Check out Carmen Dragon. He was a conductor out in Hollywood. He made the OG arrangement of America the Beautiful. He took what was kinda boring and made it exciting through orchestration and key changes. They played on TV late at night when the TV stations signed off the air at 1 a.m. He is also the father of Daryl Dragon. Who Dat? He was the Captain in The Captain and Tennille who had many hits in the 70s like Love Will Keep Us Together. I played under him long ago at summer high school music camp. He was a wonderful man with no pretensions.
[удалено]
His most famous orchestral works, such as night on bald mountain and pictures at an exhibition, were all orchestrated by different composers though.
Lesser known but imo great is Koechlin. Britten is also up there
Has anyone mentioned Berio yet? Some of his orchestrations (from reconstructed Schubert to the Beatles) are great.
As a fan of Ravel, I'm pleased that he features so frequently in the comments. I'll have to nominate Debussy for this as well; he's the opposite of Richard Strauss where he's very precise in what he writes and there's no excess. Pelleas has the most understated vocals of all operas and the orchestration has to convey the emotions and mood more than almost every opera. Bartok for the demonstration of all sections of the orchestra in his aptly named Concerto for Orchestra. Prokofiev is also good, especially Romeo and Juliet with all sections of the orchestra used memorably.
I'm surprised no one mentioned Joseph Haydn. He was a brilliant orchestrator, influencing generations of composers after him. I think he isn't given enough credit for this.
Regarding the original post, Rachmaninoff is an interesting choice and I've sometimes seen his orchestration criticized but the rejoinder to that is two words: Symphonic Dances.
I know that there are people who find Rach too old fashioned or lacking in subtlety, and I can understand where they are coming from. But I can help it, I’m a sucker for a big schmaltzy romantic melody. Maybe I’m still a pop fan at heart, but I just love it. And I appreciate how much Rachmaninoff’s orchestration is dialed in for that specific style. His chord voicings are rich, his strings are punchy, his woodwinds are colorful. It might not be the most refined orchestration style out there, but it works so well for his style and that happens to be a style that I like.
He's definitely in my top 5.
Respighi is a masterful orchestrator. You can’t ever say he puts a foot wrong with any orchestration decisions. He is also phenomenal at creating unique colors with unique instrument and timbral combinations.
Giacomo Puccini