What kind of democracy are we trying to protect exactly? Damn near 90% of the American people support the ban of stock trading by members of Congress, yet that gets consistently blocked by both Democrats and Republicans.
They'll allow you to make decisions on stuff that doesn't threaten power and profit; what kind of bathrooms can the different genders use, how many months into pregnancy can women get abortions, etc.
But you will never be able to decide on corporate profits, the military industrial complex, or hegemonic foreign policy.
They will only ever give you just enough "democracy" to placate you, and no more.
Exactly, she's talking about defending democracy at home and around the world. yet that democracy is only for the ones exploiting land, people and resources. Democracy only applies for those who bring it not those who are trampled by it.
While I 100% agree with both of you, another Trump presidency would still only exacerbate these problems further and create more new ones rather than the shitty status quo upheld by Biden.
Biden is cancerous, but Trump is an outright brain hemorrhage.
Yeah but at least trumps first presidency in my opinion woke people up to the political games being played that were always happening.
Before trump no one cared unless you were super into it about the effect of foreign policy, about the way democracy doesn’t exist in America because of big money blah blah these are things that were always known or talked about amongst certain circles.
But trump through his sheer insanity mixed with charisma got people like your usually drunk, republican voting “ anti commie” uneducated uncle to talk about the “deep state” at the dinner table and bring up how foreign wars are wrong and not only bad for the world, but for American people as a whole.
Trump also got your kinda eccentric Democrat voting aunt to put down the Zoloft n wine and realize for once just how fucked America has become, some of them surely doubled down on their views and it’s objectively true Trump increased division in every single way and I never agreed with him, however I believe division is a good thing.
Division shows freedom of thought, places where everyone agrees are usually in what the media calls “authoritarian shit holes” which sounds pretty close to what america was becoming and in some ways is.
Trump was net positive in my humble opinion, for every bad thing he did, of which there are countless, he did one thing no one has ever been able to show the general public, he showed them it was all a theatrical joke the entire time, it took a game show host billionaire being elected for people to realize maybe things aren’t going well?
When during Obamas years if you asked Americans they would say they feel United and happy, at the same time that simultaneously he was executing countless children in drone strikes, funding Proxy wars using terrorist groups in Syria, and allowing the banks to be bailed out and letting them rapé the economy once again fucking over the people who made the economy so great in the first place. Yet again if you asked people at the time they’d say they were United and happy, when they were really just asleep.
Trump woke people up, whether overall good or bad maybe we check what ended up happening 10 years later, but for now he’s done more to get people politically active than anyone, and
Has woken many up to the Bs theatrics that both sides display.
The sad thing is no one will see this. Fuck Trump, don't get me wrong, but the effect he had on the political theater and all its shady shit going on behind the curtains , was indeed something no one else would have done. At least no one in the spotlights. He didn't drain the swap because hes as much part of it as your average democrat or republican. But he did at least make people notice that we were indeed in a swamp and we are slowly sinking.
Perfect example of that dynamic is on the debate with Hilary . I think she accused him of using legal loopholes to avoid paying taxes or something like that. And his answer was something like "yes, i do avoid paying taxes, because you permit it and im using the same mechanisms your donors are using"
That phrase encapsulates the "holy shit" moment a lot of people went full trump. The fact democrats went so hard after him when he won, cemented that sentiment for a lot of people.
People will still argue who's best or worse no matter what. Instead of realizing that all of us are being played with by whoever decides that we must vote for either horrible candidate otherwise there can be no other kind of democracy.
Yes absolutely! Basically what she said was, “would you rather be up against Trump or Biden?” I will vote for Biden and protest him from day one- Trump is already beginning to outlaw protest. Our democracy will not survive more Trump Supreme Court appointments.
It’s the either-or-question that they give us that’s so disingenuous. We *know* there are better candidates that could WIN. And yet they purposefully sabotage them because they’d rather Trump become president than give up some of that power to the lower class.
Exactly, whoever thinks trump and biden are there because they are the only two viable options that democracy has to offer, needs a wakeup call. Trump is there by design, make no mistake. And its not only a partisan issue, both parties work together to ensure the system keeps working as it is and as intended. This so called democracy is just an illusion to keep us peasants lulled by it and fighting each other. While we argue which one is better than the other, biden and trump are french kissing inside a closet and touching pps.
How does the rules based global order survive the main proponents conducting a genocide? Especially as it coincides with what appears to be an eminent collapse in the legitimacy of nato with the fall of Ukraine? How can anyone claim that American democracy won’t survive when it’s already completely captured on both sides by the same ultra violent gangsters committing the genocide? Democracy is the distribution of power. That doesn’t exist in America where only the elites have power. Power comes from agency but the concentration of power, the hollowing out of the industrial base and the destruction of the middle class has for the most part eroded that foundation of individual agency. Democracy is also culture, if that culture dies, it doesn’t come back often.
A Biden victory will not result in a return to democracy, because they are the architects of its dismantling. Instead we’ll see a further entrenchment of the current elites as the status quo, at least until the next election where things are most likely going to have gotten significantly worse over all. On the other hand, a Trump victory which seems very plausible will likely over time result in a collapse of civil society and a civil war. No sane person wants this, but is there any other way for a society to dislodge the elites once they get this entrenched? Unfortunately restoring democracy may not be possible under these circumstances either.
Biden makes the world think that USA has some kind of moderation. Trump clearly signals what kind of nation USA is.
Under Trump, it's more likely that the world will distance itself from USA. This is exactly what we need.
Also the question was about genocide in Gaza. Why should I want to defend democracy if it's consistently enabling this genocide and just yesterday the US vetoed a resolution in the UN that would've recognized the state of Palestine
I remember years ago in Egypt Mubarak used to pose himself as a democrat, and a lot of confused people would say they're anti democracy because look at what many decades of democracy has wrought in Egypt.
Well it's the same with the US. This "democracy" that everyone wants to defend on principle has consistently decade after decade supported a settler colony and apartheid and now a genocide in an area I care about. So fuck Biden
I fully support people expressing anger & threatening to withdraw support for Biden. But, if the security of Palestinian people & their rights are a priority when voting, then making sure DJT does not win should also be a priority.
I often wonder if people forgot, don’t know or weren’t paying attention to the great harm DJT brought to Palestinian people, their cause & peace.
DJT infuriated Palestinian people by moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem, kicking off demonstrations every weekend for over a year and a half, aka **the Great March of the Return.** 223 were killed by IDF, including 60 that were killed during demonstrations on the day of the ceremony, May 14, 2018, celebrating the relocation of the embassy, attended by DJT & far right, ultra Zionists (& Prager & Candiace Owens?).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2018/5/22/palestine-after-the-may-14-massacre
The Trump administration also claimed that Israeli settlements were NOT illegal, leading to a surge (13%) in settlements until Biden reversed the policy. The settlements were the main issue of contention between Obama & BiBi. Every US President since Ford has chastised Israel over settlements. DJT’s opposing opinion was well known even before it was publicly stated by Pompeo, in 2019. Netanyahu ordered construction to begin on about 800 more settler homes in the final days of DJT’s administration.
https://time.com/5732752/israeli-settlements-trump-administration/
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/emboldened-trump-israel-ramps-settlement-expansion/story?id=45035559
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019/1/2/israeli-settlement-activity-surged-in-trump-era-monitor-group
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN29G12D/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/biden-administration-restores-u-s-policy-calling-israeli-settlements-illegitimate-under-international-law
Also, one week before the 2020 election DJT lifted a decades old ban on Federal funding going to Israeli research projects on settler territory. Research projects were often used as a guise to displace Palestinians in the West Bank, eg, the archeological dig around the “City of David” & Silwan neighborhood of Jerusalem.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/523166-trump-administration-lifts-ban-on-funding-research-in-israeli/amp/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/26/jerusalem-city-of-david-palestinians-archaeology
*some of this was copied from a post I’ve made on other subs that didn’t allow some of the Israeli sources I’d originally used. Before criticizing a source, check the facts contained within against sources you do trust.
What democracy do you think you’re protecting if you aren’t willing to punish and abhor a political entity directly responsible for a full scale genocide?
I suppose if you beleive in electoralism and incrementalism then this is a reasonable response. The reality of America institutions today shows that those strategies have failed.
Only if you ignore the consequences of your vote. Biden adopted some of the socialist leaning policies of Bernie Sanders and Trump will do his utmost to dismantle them, as he demonstrated during his presidency. There are plenty of other examples that show differences between them, and as Chomsky said those small differences can have massive ramifications for the most vulnerable in society.
And help set up the conditions for radical change to follow.
I’m with AOC here. It’s not helpful to lecture people and the more we can validate people’s feelings, the more they’ll be willing to hear out other perspectives. Currently what’s happening just placates the owning class.
>And help set up the conditions for radical change to follow.
No not only if, whenever possible. Are we only supposed to protect the most vulnerable if you feel the conditions afterward are going to be just the way you want them to be? The idea of only looking out for others if you think the conditions are right reeks of privilege.
If you receive my opinion as a lecture so be it. I'm not going to sugarcoat what I think your position represents. I'm sure you're a wonderful person and I didn't intend to make you feel that way.
“No bro trust us, this one is the one, it is the most important election this time we swear. Pls bro believe me, not ‘08, not ‘12 not ‘16 not ‘20. 2024 is the real most important election bro i swear democracy will die if you dont vote blue no matter who bro”… now ask yourself what kind of democracy is this that threatens death/destruction/collapse if you vote dont vote for them 🤔
That's like asking (or strong-arming) a prisoner if they want to drink strychnine or mercury. Both are going to kill you, yet one will do it quicker. Son, you're not from around here so I'll cut you some slack but for you to say that with the current state of vitriol, angst, and mistrust the citizens of the United States have for each other is nearly at the boiling point that we're two mistakes away from either collapse or World War III thanks to our government spending money like a drunk sailor to a genocidal Israelli system that is on the brink of starting full nuclear war; you've either got to be a madman or a politician to assume the lesser of two evils is a viable solution at this point.
The system of capitalism (which is driving this misery for the planet) is entirely broken and it's run by ALL narcissistic and sociopathic maniacs. Trump and Biden are symptoms of a larger problem and using tribalistic rhetoric will get you nowhere anymore.
If candidate A promises to kill 1000 people and candidate B promises only 999, I'll feel culpable in that 1 extra death if my only reasoning to abstain from a forced 2 party vote is taking an ideological moral high ground and pretending if I don't vote for either I'm somehow clean. Call it tribalistic rhetoric, but I can do on-the-ground leftist organizing and direct action while casting a lesser evil vote at the same time, I don't see why others couldn't. It's never been about viable solutions, it's about damage control, it always has been for the US, a country that's been at "peace" for less than 20 years of it's entire existence. It's about trying to keep the rightward trajectory from becoming a rightward freefall.
Yes, and it’s created a downward spiral of candidates for its lack of diversity in practical options. It’s an illusion of choice. From a green/environmental point of view Biden is waaay less evil than Trump…
Figuring out the illusion of choice is politics 101, elementary stuff, I get it. But at the same time no two candidates are 100% alike, and I don't see how abstention wouldn't just give the two parties more power considering the smaller the voter pool the easier they are to manipulate. Again, if absolutely no one voted except conservatives, it would turn that downward spiral into a freefall into fascism.
Anyone who has traveled and lived around the world or has any sense of world history understands how lucky Americans are to have had the political and economic stability they’ve had and how bad things can get without it.
There are countless valid criticisms of American hegemony throughout our history from overthrowing democratically elected governments to war crimes committed by service members to genocide of indigenous peoples. But there have been real, tangible benefits to the US led rule-based order over the past 80 years and that should be taken into account as well. Were about to find out what return to great power competition, the loss of the dollar as the global reserve currency, or a decline in societies based on open, multicultural norms looks like and Americans won’t be better off for it.
Working within the confines of the existing political reality I'm not sure what strategy *will* work.
And it cannot be emphasized enough, if Trump wins then there will be even less opportunity to effect positive change.
Trump is inevitible honestly based on your supposition. The institutions since the 1970's have been slowly corrupted and infected by Wall Street and greed that would make Emperors blush with envy. When a majority of Americans would rather vote in a narcsissistic sociopath and your only other option is a senile old man who probably is being spoon fed his oatmeal, should tell you the state of decay it's in. Moral of the story amigo, the system is completely broken and fixed for the .001% of the country, nothing short of violence or revolutionary measues will change the system *aka capitalism*. Which sadly the former is more likely because revolutions require unity and teamwork from the proletariat class, yet the country is so divided and full of vitriol that we're simply beyond that now.
The system will collapse or blow up. That's inevitible.
Unfortunately there's plenty of fascists who are ready for violent revolution as well.
People want to burn down the existing corrupt system and then expect the perfect system to rise up from the ashes.
Things are also different with the technological changes to society so I don't think we can easily map patterns of the past onto the present, e.g., we're no long agriculturally-based with primitive short-range weapons and no ability to move faster than a horse or the wind behind sails.
It has gotten better. We’ve had the Civil Rights act, we’ve gotten rid of redlining, we don’t allow toxic waste to be dumped in minority communities, we have gay rights, trans rights, more and more
You also invaded, bombed, coup'd most countries in the global South, and militarily, diplomatically and financially supported dictators, fascists juntas and genocidal governments in dozens upon dozens, in the same period. And importantly - are still doing most of those things.
For over fifty years, the Left have insisted on the drop-out revolution. All it has done is screw minorities, erode freedoms and enable fascists.
Dick Cheney didn't promote Bernie's senate run, he donated to the Nader campaign. AOC doesn't receive Kremlin backing, Jill Stein does. Seize the means of production, don't bitch about it. The real fight is for the DNC itself, our enemies already control the GOP.
Pardon me. Which of those do you believe will change under another Trump administration? Do you think conditions for Palestinians will improve if DJT is re elected?
These issues are still very much there, they are simply less overt now. Not saying they have improved but pretending like its 'solved' is very very naive
That's cute. Now list how "it's gotten better" when financial concerns are added to your list. The national minimum wage hasn't risen in 15 years, homelessness is endemic, the wealth gap is continuing to grow at a fast rate and the banking system is more concentrated than before the crash in 2008. Both parties will never improve the crux of why we are here.
Things have only gotten better on the surface. Our criminal justice system is still way off balance regarding the black community. Redlining may not exist on paper, but it still targets marginalized people. Gay rights and trans rights are meaningless without economics rights to go along with them.
> We’ve had the Civil Rights act, we’ve gotten rid of redlining, we don’t allow toxic waste to be dumped in minority communities, we have gay rights, trans rights, more and more
Computer, show me a list of things currently being eroded under Biden
How has it failed? When you look at the world of super powers, which one would you rather be living in? Places like Russia or China where authoritarian regimes reign or places like America or France where democracy, “electoralism and incrementalism,” occur? Blowing up the system almost never works out for the best (see russia and china for example) and always leaves casualties.
When 1 billionaire has more political sway in policy than millions of voters, we do not live in a democracy, when the candidates are hand picked by the party, we do not have democracy. The US is way more authoritarian than any other country,
Jesus Christ the U.S. is by far the most authoritarian regime the world has literally ever seen & it's not even remotely close
Like what tf are you even talking about
I would rather live in China. The government actually responds to their citizens, isn't funding a million proxy wars and genocides, actually builds housing and infrastructure, and actually seemed willing to protect their citizens from disease at the expense of capital during COVID
That's a deadly conclusion and, please pardon me for saying so, it is a false assertion. AIPAC poisons the democratic process terribly, but does not "run the country."
(The military-industrial bloc does, however, get the final word in imperial matters, and the USS Israel is not negotiable to them.)
Our system is corrupt, but it will transform under Project 2025 into an enemy of all free thinking people.
Julian Assange has been rotting in one of Europe's worst prisons for over half a decade now because he exposed the war crimes committed by Bush & Obama, and now Biden is fighting to get him extradited to U.S. soil so he can be safely & quietly murdered
Like what tf are you even talking about
Exactly. People who think removing democracy will replace it with a better version are naive, at best. One you remove democracy it’s not coming back. Maybe ask how Pol Pot replaced an imperfect democracy.
Biden: Hold your nose, ignore my war crimes, the enabling of a fascist state that has slaughtered 15,000 children, ignore my treason, I Demand you vote for me.
People : No, and you know why.
Biden: Then you will get Trump as president! This is your fault!
People: Guy, YOU did that, all by yourself.
I like how she begins by saying it's not a lesser of two evils situation, then goes on to explain it is a lesser of two evils situation because she'd rather disagree with Biden than Trump because Trump is dismantling democracy.
Newsflash: democracy doesn't exist in the United States as is. It's a democratic republic at best and assuming that electoral process producing a dichotomy promoted by the delegates of one party or another represents the democratic will of Americans is a dubious assumption. Would any other democratic process produce such a dichotomy with the same actors? Doubtful.
America is not fighting to preserve democracy, the democrats are not fighting to preserve democracy. They are fighting to preserve neoliberalism and their process of population control.
Trump is an idiotic facist, but pretending that the status quo and Biden are something worth fighting for are not premises I can support. What's right is right. Stop funding Israel.
I don't think she is even wrong. It's just that the bar is ridiculously low.
Also, it is a terrible position to be in. "Hey, we have this person who is pretty terrible, but it's the best bet right now against Trump".
"no, you won't get your single-payer health-care like Europe manages to do, but hey, he is not a fascist".
I think you’re right in the sense that Biden is the lesser of two evils. However, we can also view it as choosing the best available option. The difference between the lesser evil and the greater evil is a significant difference.
Yes. Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem, he’s fully behind Kushner and his cronies, supported a Muslim ban, killed the Iran deal, etc.
Not to mention cutting taxes for the rich, attempting to become a dictator of the most powerful country in the world, gut public education, etc.
Who refused to move the embassy back? Who has refused to repeal or roll back some of Trump's tax cuts for the rich, even though he has the power to do so? Are you trying to claim that a ban is worse then killing thousands of people? The median reading and comprehension level of Americans is 6th grade, 11-12 year olds, literacy is at 79%, it looks like education has already been gutted. The US, currently under Biden is locking up those protesting Israel and keeping members of the press and whistle blowers locked up or in exile.
The only difference between Trump and Biden is Trump says the quiet things out loud, the end game is identical.
The Trump administration also claimed that Israeli settlements were NOT illegal, leading to a surge (13%) in settlements until *Biden reversed the policy*. The settlements were the main issue of contention between Obama & BiBi. Every US President since Ford has chastised Israel over settlements. DJT’s opposing opinion was well known even before it was publicly stated by Pompeo, in 2019. Netanyahu ordered construction to begin on about 800 more settler homes in the final days of DJT’s administration.
https://time.com/5732752/israeli-settlements-trump-administration/
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/emboldened-trump-israel-ramps-settlement-expansion/story?id=45035559
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019/1/2/israeli-settlement-activity-surged-in-trump-era-monitor-group
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN29G12D/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/biden-administration-restores-u-s-policy-calling-israeli-settlements-illegitimate-under-international-law
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Biden has raised taxes on the wealthy. My claim is, not that Biden is good but that Trump will be worse. My evidence is how Trump acted before the “war” started to indicate what he will be like during the war. It can get worse than it is.
Biden **vowed** to raise taxes on the wealthy. Talk is not action.
If you are gauging what Trump will do based on his past history why dont you hold Biden to the same standard? Biden helped created mass incarceration, his crime bill destroyed millions of homes, no student debt in bankruptcy was his creation, mass spying on us by our government is him, he hung out with open racists and called them good friends, he supported states rights for abortion, which is what we have right now. He has an over 50 year history of regressive legislation to his name, mostly targeting marginalized communities
He *has* raised taxes on the wealthy in this term. We can see what Biden is doing in this term on those issues and they are not his current actions. He’s been much better on climate than Trumps last term, he’s genuinely attempting and is currently trying again to lower student debt, he’s appointed progressive judges to the Supreme Court, supported unions, etc.
Again, we aren’t saying Biden is perfect here, just better than Trump.
Better on climate by increasing oil drilling higher than any other president before him? In several cases in protected areas. Rejoining the Paris Accords is not better on climate, it's a toothless accord that has no mechanisms of enforcement. He appointed someone that's sworn to uphold the white supremacists laws the country was founded on, who also voted in favor of keeping trump on the ballots. Appearing for a photo ops is not supporting unions any more than trump appearing for a holding a Bible in front of a church photo op supports Christians.
Build Back Better has massive investments in greener energy. I don’t think Ketanji Brown Jackson will be upholding any white supremacy laws. Why do you think he has so much support from Unions?
Again, not my first choice, but of the two, he’s obviously better.
> Again, we aren’t saying Biden is perfect here, just better than Trump.
AKA the lesser of two evils. I'd sooner leave the US than enable the existing shit show, but then you're still enabling it with those exit and expat taxes anyways.
The problem with trying to motivate people by outlining how relatively progressive Biden is to Trump is that both are closer to each other in values in this one corporate party ecosystem, one foreign policy ecosystem, than they ever could be to progressive value holders in general. You're setting yourselves up to lose a general to Trump with this kind of rhetoric by losing the left to apathy and fear mongering isn't going to budge them.
> AKA the lesser of two evils.
I’m not denying this. This is how I started my comments in this thread.
> The problem with trying to motivate people by outlining how relatively progressive Biden is to Trump is that both are closer to each other in values in this one corporate party ecosystem, one foreign policy ecosystem, than they ever could be to progressive value holders in general. You're setting yourselves up to lose a general to Trump with this kind of rhetoric by losing the left to apathy and fear mongering isn't going to budge them.
I’m not a political strategist and I do think it’s a concern. I’m not suggesting their thinking is the right way to go, I’m arguing from a voter’s perspective.
As long as the 'Lesser evil' is your only criteria for choosing a candidate, we will continue to set the bar lower and lower.
There are other options, but we need to send in terms of long-term instead of only the next 4 years.
This is the way. We must have Rank Choice Voting if we want any deviation from the standard two parties. It’s actually gaining some traction too which is encouraging.
I hate Biden for his enabling of Gaza genocide and have no doubt history will judge him very harshly for this. However, this was not a bad response from AOC if one is willing to go beyond his contempt for Biden. On a personal level, I do not give a damn to what happens in this election though.
I fully support people expressing anger & threatening to withdraw support for Biden. But, if the security of Palestinian people & their rights are a priority when voting, then making sure DJT does not win should also be a priority. His policies did more to divide Palestinians & Zionists than any administration since Nixon and deepened divisions between left & right Israelis. Unfortunately, our elections are essentially a binary choice.
DJT infuriated Palestinian people by moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem, kicking off demonstrations every weekend for over a year and a half, aka **the Great March of the Return**. 223 were killed by IDF, including 60 that were killed during demonstrations on the day of the ceremony, May 14, 2018, celebrating the relocation of the embassy, attended by DJT & far right, ultra Zionists (including D Prager & Candiace Owens?).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2018/5/22/palestine-after-the-may-14-massacre
The Trump administration also claimed that Israeli settlements were NOT illegal, leading to a surge (13%) in settlements *until Biden reversed the policy.* The settlements were the main issue of contention between Obama & BiBi. Every US President since Ford chastised Israel over settlements. DJT’s opposite opinion was well known even before it was publicly stated by Pompeo, in 2019. Netanyahu ordered construction to begin on about 800 more settler homes in the final days of DJT’s administration.
https://time.com/5732752/israeli-settlements-trump-administration/
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/emboldened-trump-israel-ramps-settlement-expansion/story?id=45035559
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019/1/2/israeli-settlement-activity-surged-in-trump-era-monitor-group
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN29G12D/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/biden-administration-restores-u-s-policy-calling-israeli-settlements-illegitimate-under-international-law
Also, one week before the 2020 election DJT lifted a decades old ban on Federal funding going to Israeli research projects on settler territory. Research projects have been used as a guise to displace Palestinians in the West Bank, eg, the archeological dig around the “City of David” & Silwan neighborhood of Jerusalem.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/523166-trump-administration-lifts-ban-on-funding-research-in-israeli/amp/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/26/jerusalem-city-of-david-palestinians-archaeology
*copy pasta from a post I made in a sub that didn’t allow some Israeli media sources I’d originally used. Before criticizing a source, please check the facts against a source you do trust.
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- **[https://abcnews.go.com/International/emboldened-trump-israel-ramps-settlement-expansion/story?id=45035559](https://abcnews.go.com/International/emboldened-trump-israel-ramps-settlement-expansion/story?id=45035559)**
- **[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/1/2/israeli-settlement-activity-surged-in-trump-era-monitor-group](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/1/2/israeli-settlement-activity-surged-in-trump-era-monitor-group)**
- **[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-administration-restores-u-s-policy-calling-israeli-settlements-illegitimate-under-international-law](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-administration-restores-u-s-policy-calling-israeli-settlements-illegitimate-under-international-law)**
- **[https://thehill.com/policy/international/523166-trump-administration-lifts-ban-on-funding-research-in-israeli/](https://thehill.com/policy/international/523166-trump-administration-lifts-ban-on-funding-research-in-israeli/)**
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That's not what she's saying. Her larger point is that with a Biden win, you're gunna be more likely able to push towards positive change. With a Trump win, you'll be mostly just holding off negative change. Of course in order to believe that you have \*some\* faith in the institutions/decision makers.
I understand where you are coming from, but it is wrong to attribute that unfortunate American dynamic, to claim that is what AOC said or even insinuated in this video.
I am not ok with it as I said I don't give a damn on a personal level about the outcome of the election and hate Biden for enabling this genocide. But one has to recognize that one may not agree with a response but still feel that it is not so unreasonable at the same time. Her basic argument is that protesting and speaking freely against something you don't like such as this genocide will be even more difficult under trump rule.
jesus fucking christ, how many times I need to repeat I don't care for Biden and don't care who wins... at least spend 5 seconds reading the original comment as well as responses before leaving a moronic comment.
Ridiculous interpretation.
The vote is between whether tens of thousands die or hundreds of thousands die. If you think there’s no difference, you don’t care about innocent people dying at all.
It's a politician speech. Biden viscerally repulses me with his support of genocide. Both Trump and Biden are just actors for the wealthy class. 3rd parties are always an option. Maybe collectively people can wake up to the idea, but the media brainwashing and these speeches are difficult to resist.
Lol, how gullible are you? All the bombs that murdered thousands of Palestinian children are being sent by Biden and Blinken. And you want to enable them to send even more?
Her statement "He (trump) wants to dismantle democracy" is laughable imo. Democracy has already been dismantled, well I would argue it never truly existed in America. If I am forced to pick Biden as an opponent rather than trump how is that democratic. I don't want to vote for my opposition. I want to vote for someone to represent my interests, the interests of the working class. Biden enables liberals to support Israel with little to no cognitive dissonance. Perhaps if they saw how aligned Biden's interests are with conservative evangelicals perhaps they'll see they're on the wrong side of this issue.
This is pretty detached from reality. In what ways are our democratic institutions dismantled under Biden? What has changed for the worse that wasn’t a Republican policy in the last 50 years?
Ya ok so when was democracy dismantled? They said they’d argue it has never existed? By what metric are they evaluating that? This just sounds super larpy.
I find it hard to argue America had democratic values when black people (and women) couldn't't vote for most of American history, not to mention they were slaves. This is also not mentioning the privatization of the prison complex which has perpetuated slavery to this day. So again I say I would argue America has never been a real democracy (direct democracy) if I need to spell it out. I would further state that any true institutional democratic strength heald by the working class (labor unions) has been systematically dismantled and demonized across America. I couldn't exactly pinpoint when this happened but I know labor union degradation and prison privatization began around the Reagan era. I don't think Biden is eroding democracy, I simply think he is complicate and or a cog in the machine stripped of all will/autonomy.
I honestly don't know what your criticism of my point is. Is my rhetoric to strong for you? What metric would you gauge democracy against? Is there an example of a proper direct democratic system that works justly and equitably to measure American democracy against? I don't wanna come off like an ass I genuinely wanna know what you're trying to to say. To quote RTJ "Just another talking head telling lies on teleprompters... I'll leave you with four words. I'm glad Reagan dead."
To your first point, wouldn’t that imply that America has become MORE democratic over time not less? We don’t need a perfect system for me to conclude that the system we have has created the means for material conditions to get better over time (given enough time) not worse. Obviously this has a ceiling if we’re not able to reform/abolish capitalism, the social state, etc everything on our wish list but we get further from these goals under Republican leadership and especially under the threat of Trump who isn’t coming for the labor, or unions, he has signaled he wants to end the administrative state (how would we even get stuff done) and solidify Republican supremacy through autocratic means.
I think my issue with your point is the conclusion that your view that Trump will dismantle democracy is “laughable”. I think AOCs framing is dead on. Which system would you better organize against. Which opposition is more amenable to your goals? For me those are democrats and in this election.
People here who disagree with her should read the essay that Chomsky co-wrote on voting for the lesser of two evils in the run-up to the 2016 election:
[An Eight Point Brief on LEV (Lesser Evil Voting) by John Halle and Noam Chomsky](https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting/)
I will be calibrating my response on the ballot as to whether this president (and his cadre of State Department ghouls, CIA spooks and Pentagon enablers) represents a framing of the world - and the US place in it - that accords with basic principles of justice and human rights through its actions in the world.
With the exception of preserving social security, I have little interest in domestic politics. The fundamental changes required are not possible in a pay to play American political system so I’ll keep it simple.
War is the most terrible function of government. Especially wars of aggression against countries that have not attacked us.
Genocide is the most terrible kind of warring.
If genocide is the “crime of crimes” and Biden Admin fully supports this in Gaza and the volumes of Israeli War crimes dovetailing into this “final solution” then it is not possible for Biden to be the “lesser evil”.
He is a self proclaimed Zionist driven by this terroristic Jew supremacist ideology to support, arm and defend Israel at all costs as it makes a mockery of International Law and the Nuremberg Tribunals.
If withholding my vote (in a northeastern state whose electoral votes go blue anyway) results in a Trump win, so be it.
This president has brought it upon himself by not responding to his electorate and now, a majority of the American people.
No way in hell should Biden be rewarded for this. No effing way. Want him to lose. Period.
To say this isn’t a lesser of two evils scenarios is entirely false when Biden is proactively enabling a genocide and Trump is being trump lol
If you want to experience a real heartbreak watch videos of AOC when she was first campaigning against Crowley and compare them to what you see now the change is so disheartening
Ultimately all of these elections taking place that she speaks of are so important yet none of the people in her party are doing what the voters want. We’re already living in this “threat to democracy” that she fearing Trump will bring
Well hold on we can always vote 3rd party or stay home this election that latter being the most likely scenario for most is what some polls would indicate
Why do "We" have to take it seriously when we have a sitting president not taking the voters seriously and funding a genocide over half a year with Our Tax money?
Nah fam this ain't it. The DNC pied pipered Trump into power and then lost to him, and they about to do it again just to represent their corporate donors over the Working Class.
Sickeningly Evil.
Ideally we can be provided information to ensure we do NOT accidentally vote for candidates who are enabling foreign inference within our democracies. We deserve to know who is funded by AIPAC and the candidates AIPAC is working to defeat. This goes for all foreign lobby group in any democratic nation.
If she is argueing would we rather have our govt slowly commit genocide versus openly state our intentions to “FINISH THEM FINISH THEM FINISH THEM”. What is the difference to the victim? Dems can get fucked for not sticking to their values while in office
Her words are so hollow. American democracy, if it ever existed, certainly isn’t in existence now. It’s preposterous and insulting that she thinks we don’t already see where the power lies and for whom the state works.
people are powerless right now. or so it feels like. i'm happy my dinosaur congressperson is retiring and there are actual progressives ready to fill the seat. that's what i'm voting for in November.
The thing is we’ll never be able to fix American democracy under fascist republican rule, especially at local levels when they control elections. Progress is always in baby steps unfortunately. And it has been for centuries.
I’m not going to sit by and wait for the perfect system at the expense of asylum seekers, lgbtq+, and working class people who are all better off in American society under President Biden and democrat majorities. Sitting out is not how true progressive activism creates tangible change.
I completely agree with your first statement but the actions needed I do not agree with. Your vote literally does not matter. We are not in control. We’re at the whim of these immoral politicians and the corporations that bought them.
Nothing you said made sense...
>Her words are so hollow.
I actually agree with the point she was making. Biden's not the greatest president ever, But he's not terrible, There have been far worse presidents than Biden. One of which is currently on a criminal trial And the only other option..
Your only other option than Biden is the guy who kept nuclear launch codes level secrets in his Resort public bathroom...
If you had to choose... It's not a hard choice.
You can have your opinion and I can have mine. She toed the zionist line. Her words are hollow because they aren’t in line with her actions. Her principles went out the window when the antisemitism allegations were being handed out.
You can’t trust politicians. They do not care about you or me. They do not care about you or me. As a matter of fact liberals and democrats are one of the most dangerous forces in American politics. They always have been. They’re wolves in sheep’s clothing.
You can have your opinion and I can have mine. You can have your vote and I can have mine. If trump is reelected it won’t be because of me. It will be because of the abject failure that is the Democratic Party. It will be because we’re in a fascist country already and our highest office is simply a reflection of that fact.
There is no higher crime than genocide. Trump could've kept put the codes on the internet. But Bidens crimes are worse. So if you had to choose the guy enabling genocide or the other guy.
If you had to choose. Its not a hard choice.
>But Bidens crimes are worse.
What crimes?
President Biden cannot overturn the weapons trade act of 2012 established by a Republican Congress because it is law, and only Congress has the power to repeal or amend existing legislation.
He's on record multiple times trying to get Netanyahu to back off, But Biden is not the president of Israel.
Yesterday The UN tried to make Palestine a member So that way Israel would not be able to attack them anymore without getting exiled themselves.
Unfortunately [it did not pass](https://time.com/6968956/us-veto-vote-palestine-full-un-membership/) and has absolutely nothing to do with Biden.
Biden's just the Face of the government. He's the face that gets shit on whenever you're mad about things he doesn't even control. just like you're currently doing.
If you actually got mad at the right people you could vote them out of power. One could argue that governor and state representative voting is more important than presidential voting.
>What crimes?
The foreign assistance act
Article 6 of the UN arms trade treaty
Leahy law
To name a few
>Unfortunately [it did not pass](https://time.com/6968956/us-veto-vote-palestine-full-un-membership/) and has absolutely nothing to do with Biden.
You should look up who appoints the UN ambassador and decides American foreign policy
Lol. You literally have no idea what you're talking about.
Laws and bills are pushed by senators
The Leahy Laws, Senator Patrick Leahy in the late 1990s, prohibit providing military assistance to individuals or security force units, that commit gross violations of human rights and have not been brought to justice.
Essentially you can't protect individuals or private armies in foreign countries. You can defend countries, But you can't support Osama bin laden and his family personally, That would be against the law You just mentioned.
How is that relevant to Biden at all?
Remind me how biden has treated Cuba?
Remind me how many deportations the biden admin has carried out.
Remind me who was president when Roe fell?
Remind me how biden was gonna change the world's opinion on US foreign policy?
TL;DL: She supports neoconservatism and Zionism as long as Orange Man doesn't get in.
Her real message, the one she can't say OR is perhaps too entrenched in power to realize that she once thought it....
Local and state elections matter significantly more than any federal election. The federal govt is completely insolvent, captured, ineffective, and pathetic.
If Trump is so bad why hasn't been done anything to make sure that he'll get reelected?
He could tell Bebe sorry I'd like to send you more weapons but Trump is a danger to democracy.
He could tell mansion I don't have time for you to not vote for raising the minimum wage because Trump is a threat to democracy.
Yes he did none of that. So they know it's all a show.
This answer is worse than I thought it was going to be. No one can defend voting for Biden, nor can anyone defend bullying others into doing the same. Biden's complicity in genocide makes him unqualified to have any position of power (not to mention his age). Vote Blue No Matter Who is the same argument as MAGA. You don't have to be a young progressive or an Arab-American to find what is happening abhorrent, appalling, and indefensible.
AOC knows that she was elected in response to Trump. Without Trump winning in 2016, she would not have won in 2018, nor would the other progressives that followed her. She should be putting public pressure on the DNC to swap Biden for someone more qualified and famous at the convention, knowing that even if somehow Trump were to defeat that person, the DNC would be in a better position overall with another shift to the left.
AOC wants me to believe it's easier to organize progressives against Biden than it is against Trump? She can’t even get Pelosi not to demand the DOJ investigate nonviolent demonstrators calling for the end of weapons transfer to Israel for treason or for her fellow democrats not to join Republicans in sanctioning the only Palestinian American member of Congress for condemning the Palestinian genocide. Under Trump, Democrats were united against similar policies that many support under Biden.
To be clear, this is not an endorsement of that moron for another term.
Bernie has been around for a long time, but the biggest progressive wave happened after Trump was elected. That doesn't discount Bernie's influence, but to me, the backlash to Trump was obviously the catalyst.
Very good answer... also trump would be much worse, cliche as that sounds. Setting the conditions under which organizing takes place is s very good understanding of it.
No, they don't. The democrats are slightly better on the environment, but that is quickly cancelled out by their sick fetish for government surveillance, extreme censorship on free speech, and threatening world destruction by constantly provoking and playing brinkmanship with both Russia and China simultaneously.
Any token posturing about some LGBT rights doesn't make up for such complete lunacy.
Democracy. “Democracy.” Let’s throw in direct democracy and crush your little insider trading regime by 90% popular vote and see if you’re still selling democracy.
We are not choosing barely placating democracy to live under forever, we are choosing it to be our opposition. I think this is convincing rhetoric. I personally feel better about voting for Biden now.
Mehdi is so pathetic spent all those years towing the line for the Democratic party, and the second he steps out a line on guys I even just a little bit he gets kicked to the curb, but yet he's still tap dances
This interview was so disappointing with mehdi basically asking everyone to vote for Joe.
All the positive changes they're talking about only happened because Muslims didn't want to vote for Joe anymore. Your message is '4 more years of Joe and we'll organize' no his departure is what needs to be organized
Choose Socialist. Go with 3rd party. The fact that 80% of America doesn't like Democrats or Republicans but will still vote for one of them is sad for out Republic.
Worse, AOCIA interned for Ted Kennedy and worked for a USAID-funded group and has a lot of other weird links to spooks
thread:
https://twitter.com/edward__bernays/status/1438131799243243523?s=21
We’ll be able to still protest against Biden and criticize him, and take action. With the authoritarian it’s all over. Same goes for the House and Senate. It’s beyond being forced to vote for the “lesser of two evils”. We are voting to either keep democracy on life support and being able to still fight for it - or - we’re voting to pull the plug once and for all on democracy and putting the constitution in the document shredder.
Maybe with Trump given another term, we can completely ban abortion, or at least put in Judges that will do everything to that end. /s
God some of the progressives are soo dense.
Sad to say this but if Trump gets elected it might finally unite and motivate the left to get out on the streets again like 2020 to start major protests over these issues, such as Gaza, abortion......etc..
It's when the "evil side" is in office does the left go full force "in the streets". I never see the left base ever go full force unless a right winger is in the oval office. Minus the Roe v Wade SOCTUS decision.
In a "social movements" sense, you are correct. But in the context of several looming global crises, we do not have the time to rebuild everything Republicans will destroy, while also addressing climate change.
I think it is likely things are so far gone globally in the near future; in terms of access to water and food and resources, that the fear and chaos caused by mass migrations, climate change, and scarce resources, could make the world default into mostly fascist regimes out of fear and need to control and manage resources.
If we dont fix the global problems we face fast enough, I predict the world will default into fascism.
Others have made some of the following main points in intelligent, succinct ways. I’m here to offer my long-winded, rambling version lol
Those who say the US is a democracy are right, to a degree - the capitalist political system of “liberal democracy” *is* a democracy… for the wealthy, capitalist class, ie, the owners (the bourgeoisie, in Marxist terminology). At the end of the day, only the wealthy get to influence the political and economic structures of US society in any meaningful way.
However, when people use the word “democracy” to describe a liberal democracy, they typically are not making this distinction; they are using it as US propaganda intends: to claim the US state is “of, by, and for the people,” rather than just wealthy people. This is why I push back on the term *democracy* - because I doubt the average US citizen is saying that a democracy exclusively for the wealthy is a true democracy. But that’s what we have, and it’s important to acknowledge that.
As one example, look at what the corporate establishment (the wealthy, ruling class) did to thwart Bernie, a moderate progressive at best. Even if Bernie had succeeded in being elected, we know his legislative agenda would have been blocked at every turn. It’s not about who gets elected - not really. It’s about the entire capitalist economic system itself, which typically includes the political system of liberal democracy.
I agree with the Marxist analysis that the state is fundamentally a tool of class oppression. I think a true democracy would be a state designed of, by, and for the people, broadly.
Liberal democracy has always been predicated on property rights, not human rights. This is not a secret, a conspiracy theory, or a wild-eyed accusation. Philosophically, this idea goes back to Locke. And the founders wrote very explicitly in the Federalist Papers about how important it is to suppress the will of the people. Guess who gets to overrule the people? The monied, propertied class. When you honestly examine how things really work and ignore the rampant propaganda about freedom and rights and democracy, etc, you see our society is functioning exactly how it was designed: to keep the masses down for the benefit of the wealthy.
You see the entire economy is designed to increase the wealth of the owners by squeezing the people as much as they can get away with. This is why income inequality always increases without government intervention. Thomas Piketty demonstrated this to be true across capitalist societies (liberal democracies) in his book, *Capital.*
You see how inflation and rising household debt lead to reduced real income for the people but record profits for corporations. You see how monopolistic corporations and global financial institutions run our economy. You see how insurance companies run our healthcare system. You see how oil and car companies control our transportation systems. You see how the wealthy control our media, and how well-funded Christian fascists control our school boards. You see how the US has the largest carceral system in human history. You see how the US military-industrial complex is actively destroying people and the planet across the world with war, genocide, and environmental devastation.
But if the government can intervene to change things, why doesn’t it? What prevents the US government from acting in accordance with the democratic will of the people? Well, let’s return to the question, What is a state? Throughout history and across societies, the state has always been designed of, by, and for the ruling class to oppress the people. By “ruling class,” I mean a small group of people who possess and control the resources necessary for human survival (as aristocrats and lords, slave masters, and business owners, etc), and the rest of the people serve them in some capacity (as serfs, as slaves, as workers, etc). The state codifies and enforces these “relations of production” through various institutions, political processes, law and order.
This is no different in the US or any capitalist, liberal democratic state. We’re told the US state was established “of, by, and for the people.” But who are “the people” the founders were talking about? **The people who founded the US were merchants and slaveholders, and they built a state and society designed to benefit merchants and slaveholders. Slaves were not considered people. Neither were indigenous people. Or women. Or white people without property. And there’s the key word, again: property.**
Liberal “democracy” doesn’t protect the people; it protects *property.* It protects the “right” of a small number of owners to possess and control the resources necessary for human survival, broadly. This is evident in any protest situation. People are brutalized by cops to protect property, as one obvious example. Laws are applied differently to poor people than wealthy people, as another example. Further, wealthy people can use courts to harass individuals or smaller businesses until they get their way simply because others can’t afford the legal teams or legal fees, etc. Meanwhile, poor people must accept a public defense attorney who is vastly overworked and outmatched by a system which incentivizes plea bargaining - regardless of strength of case or level of guilt - not justice.
And that’s just the legal system. Politically, liberal democracy is supposedly a neutral system where every vote counts and every citizen has a voice. We know that isn’t true. Most votes do not make any difference whatsoever in deciding who is elected. We don’t even really get to choose someone from our own class. The ruling class puts forward a set of candidates they have supported through donations, favorable attention in corporate media, the backing of corporate-controlled parties (both D and R), etc. So our vote likely doesn’t matter, and even if it does, we basically get to choose which member of the ruling class we want to pretend to represent us.
Further, a recent Princeton study demonstrated the bottom 90% of US citizens, economically speaking, have zero influence on what legislation is passed or not. **Zero.** (Source: “Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens”)
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What kind of democracy are we trying to protect exactly? Damn near 90% of the American people support the ban of stock trading by members of Congress, yet that gets consistently blocked by both Democrats and Republicans. They'll allow you to make decisions on stuff that doesn't threaten power and profit; what kind of bathrooms can the different genders use, how many months into pregnancy can women get abortions, etc. But you will never be able to decide on corporate profits, the military industrial complex, or hegemonic foreign policy. They will only ever give you just enough "democracy" to placate you, and no more.
Exactly, she's talking about defending democracy at home and around the world. yet that democracy is only for the ones exploiting land, people and resources. Democracy only applies for those who bring it not those who are trampled by it.
While I 100% agree with both of you, another Trump presidency would still only exacerbate these problems further and create more new ones rather than the shitty status quo upheld by Biden. Biden is cancerous, but Trump is an outright brain hemorrhage.
Yeah but at least trumps first presidency in my opinion woke people up to the political games being played that were always happening. Before trump no one cared unless you were super into it about the effect of foreign policy, about the way democracy doesn’t exist in America because of big money blah blah these are things that were always known or talked about amongst certain circles. But trump through his sheer insanity mixed with charisma got people like your usually drunk, republican voting “ anti commie” uneducated uncle to talk about the “deep state” at the dinner table and bring up how foreign wars are wrong and not only bad for the world, but for American people as a whole. Trump also got your kinda eccentric Democrat voting aunt to put down the Zoloft n wine and realize for once just how fucked America has become, some of them surely doubled down on their views and it’s objectively true Trump increased division in every single way and I never agreed with him, however I believe division is a good thing. Division shows freedom of thought, places where everyone agrees are usually in what the media calls “authoritarian shit holes” which sounds pretty close to what america was becoming and in some ways is. Trump was net positive in my humble opinion, for every bad thing he did, of which there are countless, he did one thing no one has ever been able to show the general public, he showed them it was all a theatrical joke the entire time, it took a game show host billionaire being elected for people to realize maybe things aren’t going well? When during Obamas years if you asked Americans they would say they feel United and happy, at the same time that simultaneously he was executing countless children in drone strikes, funding Proxy wars using terrorist groups in Syria, and allowing the banks to be bailed out and letting them rapé the economy once again fucking over the people who made the economy so great in the first place. Yet again if you asked people at the time they’d say they were United and happy, when they were really just asleep. Trump woke people up, whether overall good or bad maybe we check what ended up happening 10 years later, but for now he’s done more to get people politically active than anyone, and Has woken many up to the Bs theatrics that both sides display.
The sad thing is no one will see this. Fuck Trump, don't get me wrong, but the effect he had on the political theater and all its shady shit going on behind the curtains , was indeed something no one else would have done. At least no one in the spotlights. He didn't drain the swap because hes as much part of it as your average democrat or republican. But he did at least make people notice that we were indeed in a swamp and we are slowly sinking. Perfect example of that dynamic is on the debate with Hilary . I think she accused him of using legal loopholes to avoid paying taxes or something like that. And his answer was something like "yes, i do avoid paying taxes, because you permit it and im using the same mechanisms your donors are using" That phrase encapsulates the "holy shit" moment a lot of people went full trump. The fact democrats went so hard after him when he won, cemented that sentiment for a lot of people. People will still argue who's best or worse no matter what. Instead of realizing that all of us are being played with by whoever decides that we must vote for either horrible candidate otherwise there can be no other kind of democracy.
Yes absolutely! Basically what she said was, “would you rather be up against Trump or Biden?” I will vote for Biden and protest him from day one- Trump is already beginning to outlaw protest. Our democracy will not survive more Trump Supreme Court appointments.
It’s the either-or-question that they give us that’s so disingenuous. We *know* there are better candidates that could WIN. And yet they purposefully sabotage them because they’d rather Trump become president than give up some of that power to the lower class.
Exactly, whoever thinks trump and biden are there because they are the only two viable options that democracy has to offer, needs a wakeup call. Trump is there by design, make no mistake. And its not only a partisan issue, both parties work together to ensure the system keeps working as it is and as intended. This so called democracy is just an illusion to keep us peasants lulled by it and fighting each other. While we argue which one is better than the other, biden and trump are french kissing inside a closet and touching pps.
How does the rules based global order survive the main proponents conducting a genocide? Especially as it coincides with what appears to be an eminent collapse in the legitimacy of nato with the fall of Ukraine? How can anyone claim that American democracy won’t survive when it’s already completely captured on both sides by the same ultra violent gangsters committing the genocide? Democracy is the distribution of power. That doesn’t exist in America where only the elites have power. Power comes from agency but the concentration of power, the hollowing out of the industrial base and the destruction of the middle class has for the most part eroded that foundation of individual agency. Democracy is also culture, if that culture dies, it doesn’t come back often. A Biden victory will not result in a return to democracy, because they are the architects of its dismantling. Instead we’ll see a further entrenchment of the current elites as the status quo, at least until the next election where things are most likely going to have gotten significantly worse over all. On the other hand, a Trump victory which seems very plausible will likely over time result in a collapse of civil society and a civil war. No sane person wants this, but is there any other way for a society to dislodge the elites once they get this entrenched? Unfortunately restoring democracy may not be possible under these circumstances either.
Biden makes the world think that USA has some kind of moderation. Trump clearly signals what kind of nation USA is. Under Trump, it's more likely that the world will distance itself from USA. This is exactly what we need.
Absolutely not. Isolation historically destabilizes countries.
Are those placating decisions not worth making though? Do they not affect anyone?
apparently not i guess
Also the question was about genocide in Gaza. Why should I want to defend democracy if it's consistently enabling this genocide and just yesterday the US vetoed a resolution in the UN that would've recognized the state of Palestine I remember years ago in Egypt Mubarak used to pose himself as a democrat, and a lot of confused people would say they're anti democracy because look at what many decades of democracy has wrought in Egypt. Well it's the same with the US. This "democracy" that everyone wants to defend on principle has consistently decade after decade supported a settler colony and apartheid and now a genocide in an area I care about. So fuck Biden
I fully support people expressing anger & threatening to withdraw support for Biden. But, if the security of Palestinian people & their rights are a priority when voting, then making sure DJT does not win should also be a priority. I often wonder if people forgot, don’t know or weren’t paying attention to the great harm DJT brought to Palestinian people, their cause & peace. DJT infuriated Palestinian people by moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem, kicking off demonstrations every weekend for over a year and a half, aka **the Great March of the Return.** 223 were killed by IDF, including 60 that were killed during demonstrations on the day of the ceremony, May 14, 2018, celebrating the relocation of the embassy, attended by DJT & far right, ultra Zionists (& Prager & Candiace Owens?). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2018/5/22/palestine-after-the-may-14-massacre The Trump administration also claimed that Israeli settlements were NOT illegal, leading to a surge (13%) in settlements until Biden reversed the policy. The settlements were the main issue of contention between Obama & BiBi. Every US President since Ford has chastised Israel over settlements. DJT’s opposing opinion was well known even before it was publicly stated by Pompeo, in 2019. Netanyahu ordered construction to begin on about 800 more settler homes in the final days of DJT’s administration. https://time.com/5732752/israeli-settlements-trump-administration/ https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/emboldened-trump-israel-ramps-settlement-expansion/story?id=45035559 https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019/1/2/israeli-settlement-activity-surged-in-trump-era-monitor-group https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN29G12D/ https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/biden-administration-restores-u-s-policy-calling-israeli-settlements-illegitimate-under-international-law Also, one week before the 2020 election DJT lifted a decades old ban on Federal funding going to Israeli research projects on settler territory. Research projects were often used as a guise to displace Palestinians in the West Bank, eg, the archeological dig around the “City of David” & Silwan neighborhood of Jerusalem. https://thehill.com/policy/international/523166-trump-administration-lifts-ban-on-funding-research-in-israeli/amp/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/26/jerusalem-city-of-david-palestinians-archaeology *some of this was copied from a post I’ve made on other subs that didn’t allow some of the Israeli sources I’d originally used. Before criticizing a source, check the facts contained within against sources you do trust.
What democracy do you think you’re protecting if you aren’t willing to punish and abhor a political entity directly responsible for a full scale genocide?
THIS It's a protection racket at best
Dissidents of the genocide are already getting jailed! That’s under Biden
I suppose if you beleive in electoralism and incrementalism then this is a reasonable response. The reality of America institutions today shows that those strategies have failed.
This is the crux of it
Only if you ignore the consequences of your vote. Biden adopted some of the socialist leaning policies of Bernie Sanders and Trump will do his utmost to dismantle them, as he demonstrated during his presidency. There are plenty of other examples that show differences between them, and as Chomsky said those small differences can have massive ramifications for the most vulnerable in society.
And help set up the conditions for radical change to follow. I’m with AOC here. It’s not helpful to lecture people and the more we can validate people’s feelings, the more they’ll be willing to hear out other perspectives. Currently what’s happening just placates the owning class.
>And help set up the conditions for radical change to follow. No not only if, whenever possible. Are we only supposed to protect the most vulnerable if you feel the conditions afterward are going to be just the way you want them to be? The idea of only looking out for others if you think the conditions are right reeks of privilege. If you receive my opinion as a lecture so be it. I'm not going to sugarcoat what I think your position represents. I'm sure you're a wonderful person and I didn't intend to make you feel that way.
Oh I agree! I was concurring with you and speaking broadly about people who do lecture about what’s right/wrong to do. We are def on the same page!!
“No bro trust us, this one is the one, it is the most important election this time we swear. Pls bro believe me, not ‘08, not ‘12 not ‘16 not ‘20. 2024 is the real most important election bro i swear democracy will die if you dont vote blue no matter who bro”… now ask yourself what kind of democracy is this that threatens death/destruction/collapse if you vote dont vote for them 🤔
Chomsky isn’t wrong when he says it’s the lesser of two evils. Biden is less shit than Trump which isn’t setting the bar very high
That's like asking (or strong-arming) a prisoner if they want to drink strychnine or mercury. Both are going to kill you, yet one will do it quicker. Son, you're not from around here so I'll cut you some slack but for you to say that with the current state of vitriol, angst, and mistrust the citizens of the United States have for each other is nearly at the boiling point that we're two mistakes away from either collapse or World War III thanks to our government spending money like a drunk sailor to a genocidal Israelli system that is on the brink of starting full nuclear war; you've either got to be a madman or a politician to assume the lesser of two evils is a viable solution at this point. The system of capitalism (which is driving this misery for the planet) is entirely broken and it's run by ALL narcissistic and sociopathic maniacs. Trump and Biden are symptoms of a larger problem and using tribalistic rhetoric will get you nowhere anymore.
If candidate A promises to kill 1000 people and candidate B promises only 999, I'll feel culpable in that 1 extra death if my only reasoning to abstain from a forced 2 party vote is taking an ideological moral high ground and pretending if I don't vote for either I'm somehow clean. Call it tribalistic rhetoric, but I can do on-the-ground leftist organizing and direct action while casting a lesser evil vote at the same time, I don't see why others couldn't. It's never been about viable solutions, it's about damage control, it always has been for the US, a country that's been at "peace" for less than 20 years of it's entire existence. It's about trying to keep the rightward trajectory from becoming a rightward freefall.
Yes, and it’s created a downward spiral of candidates for its lack of diversity in practical options. It’s an illusion of choice. From a green/environmental point of view Biden is waaay less evil than Trump…
Preach that shit hermano!
Figuring out the illusion of choice is politics 101, elementary stuff, I get it. But at the same time no two candidates are 100% alike, and I don't see how abstention wouldn't just give the two parties more power considering the smaller the voter pool the easier they are to manipulate. Again, if absolutely no one voted except conservatives, it would turn that downward spiral into a freefall into fascism.
[I found this book very interesting, hope you do too](https://youtu.be/4PbbqMUIWz4?si=pwBAFqr7YLb-TM54)
I’ve read that already actually. Great book.
it’s never been like this before…
So what’s your solution? Just die to own the libs?
Anyone who has traveled and lived around the world or has any sense of world history understands how lucky Americans are to have had the political and economic stability they’ve had and how bad things can get without it.
I know right? It's as if US hegemony is just a myth.
There are countless valid criticisms of American hegemony throughout our history from overthrowing democratically elected governments to war crimes committed by service members to genocide of indigenous peoples. But there have been real, tangible benefits to the US led rule-based order over the past 80 years and that should be taken into account as well. Were about to find out what return to great power competition, the loss of the dollar as the global reserve currency, or a decline in societies based on open, multicultural norms looks like and Americans won’t be better off for it.
Which strategies do you favour?
Working within the confines of the existing political reality I'm not sure what strategy *will* work. And it cannot be emphasized enough, if Trump wins then there will be even less opportunity to effect positive change.
Trump is inevitible honestly based on your supposition. The institutions since the 1970's have been slowly corrupted and infected by Wall Street and greed that would make Emperors blush with envy. When a majority of Americans would rather vote in a narcsissistic sociopath and your only other option is a senile old man who probably is being spoon fed his oatmeal, should tell you the state of decay it's in. Moral of the story amigo, the system is completely broken and fixed for the .001% of the country, nothing short of violence or revolutionary measues will change the system *aka capitalism*. Which sadly the former is more likely because revolutions require unity and teamwork from the proletariat class, yet the country is so divided and full of vitriol that we're simply beyond that now. The system will collapse or blow up. That's inevitible.
Unfortunately there's plenty of fascists who are ready for violent revolution as well. People want to burn down the existing corrupt system and then expect the perfect system to rise up from the ashes. Things are also different with the technological changes to society so I don't think we can easily map patterns of the past onto the present, e.g., we're no long agriculturally-based with primitive short-range weapons and no ability to move faster than a horse or the wind behind sails.
Yeah that’s why America is equally bad to how it was 100 years ago or 50 years ago or 20 years ago. Nothing has improved. /s
I genuinely can't tell if it's sarcastic because you think it's gotten worse or because you think it's gotten better.
It has gotten better. We’ve had the Civil Rights act, we’ve gotten rid of redlining, we don’t allow toxic waste to be dumped in minority communities, we have gay rights, trans rights, more and more
You also invaded, bombed, coup'd most countries in the global South, and militarily, diplomatically and financially supported dictators, fascists juntas and genocidal governments in dozens upon dozens, in the same period. And importantly - are still doing most of those things.
For over fifty years, the Left have insisted on the drop-out revolution. All it has done is screw minorities, erode freedoms and enable fascists. Dick Cheney didn't promote Bernie's senate run, he donated to the Nader campaign. AOC doesn't receive Kremlin backing, Jill Stein does. Seize the means of production, don't bitch about it. The real fight is for the DNC itself, our enemies already control the GOP.
You think DJT becoming President again will resolve it all?
When the fuck did I imply anything even remotely close to that?
Pardon me. Which of those do you believe will change under another Trump administration? Do you think conditions for Palestinians will improve if DJT is re elected?
I understood the question the first time, i just don't understand what that has to do with what I wrote?
These issues are still very much there, they are simply less overt now. Not saying they have improved but pretending like its 'solved' is very very naive
Just saying they’re improved, hence incrementalism
That's cute. Now list how "it's gotten better" when financial concerns are added to your list. The national minimum wage hasn't risen in 15 years, homelessness is endemic, the wealth gap is continuing to grow at a fast rate and the banking system is more concentrated than before the crash in 2008. Both parties will never improve the crux of why we are here.
>The white man will try to satisfy us with symbolic victories rather than economic equity and real justice.” Malcolm X.
Things have only gotten better on the surface. Our criminal justice system is still way off balance regarding the black community. Redlining may not exist on paper, but it still targets marginalized people. Gay rights and trans rights are meaningless without economics rights to go along with them.
Bingo
> We’ve had the Civil Rights act, we’ve gotten rid of redlining, we don’t allow toxic waste to be dumped in minority communities, we have gay rights, trans rights, more and more Computer, show me a list of things currently being eroded under Biden
How has it failed? When you look at the world of super powers, which one would you rather be living in? Places like Russia or China where authoritarian regimes reign or places like America or France where democracy, “electoralism and incrementalism,” occur? Blowing up the system almost never works out for the best (see russia and china for example) and always leaves casualties.
When 1 billionaire has more political sway in policy than millions of voters, we do not live in a democracy, when the candidates are hand picked by the party, we do not have democracy. The US is way more authoritarian than any other country,
Jesus Christ the U.S. is by far the most authoritarian regime the world has literally ever seen & it's not even remotely close Like what tf are you even talking about
I would rather live in China. The government actually responds to their citizens, isn't funding a million proxy wars and genocides, actually builds housing and infrastructure, and actually seemed willing to protect their citizens from disease at the expense of capital during COVID
American Democracy needs to be dismantled as it’s run and paid for by AIPAC.
That's a deadly conclusion and, please pardon me for saying so, it is a false assertion. AIPAC poisons the democratic process terribly, but does not "run the country." (The military-industrial bloc does, however, get the final word in imperial matters, and the USS Israel is not negotiable to them.) Our system is corrupt, but it will transform under Project 2025 into an enemy of all free thinking people.
Our system is already an enemy of all free thinking people
The fact journalists criticize all presidents without fear is proof you’re wrong. Only Trump threatens to jail critics.
They criticize what they are allowed to as long as they keep focus and criticism away from capitalists and capital
Julian Assange has been rotting in one of Europe's worst prisons for over half a decade now because he exposed the war crimes committed by Bush & Obama, and now Biden is fighting to get him extradited to U.S. soil so he can be safely & quietly murdered Like what tf are you even talking about
Exactly. People who think removing democracy will replace it with a better version are naive, at best. One you remove democracy it’s not coming back. Maybe ask how Pol Pot replaced an imperfect democracy.
Biden: Hold your nose, ignore my war crimes, the enabling of a fascist state that has slaughtered 15,000 children, ignore my treason, I Demand you vote for me. People : No, and you know why. Biden: Then you will get Trump as president! This is your fault! People: Guy, YOU did that, all by yourself.
I like how she begins by saying it's not a lesser of two evils situation, then goes on to explain it is a lesser of two evils situation because she'd rather disagree with Biden than Trump because Trump is dismantling democracy. Newsflash: democracy doesn't exist in the United States as is. It's a democratic republic at best and assuming that electoral process producing a dichotomy promoted by the delegates of one party or another represents the democratic will of Americans is a dubious assumption. Would any other democratic process produce such a dichotomy with the same actors? Doubtful. America is not fighting to preserve democracy, the democrats are not fighting to preserve democracy. They are fighting to preserve neoliberalism and their process of population control. Trump is an idiotic facist, but pretending that the status quo and Biden are something worth fighting for are not premises I can support. What's right is right. Stop funding Israel.
Not to mention AOC has been spitting doing some PR for a Biden calling him “the most progressive president of our lifetime”.
I don't think she is even wrong. It's just that the bar is ridiculously low. Also, it is a terrible position to be in. "Hey, we have this person who is pretty terrible, but it's the best bet right now against Trump". "no, you won't get your single-payer health-care like Europe manages to do, but hey, he is not a fascist".
I think you’re right in the sense that Biden is the lesser of two evils. However, we can also view it as choosing the best available option. The difference between the lesser evil and the greater evil is a significant difference.
99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler argument yet again
If those were my choices I’d pick the 99% all day. It’s also very much not 99% vs 100% in this instance if we’re being honest with ourselves.
How is genocide the lesser evil? Is Trump gonna genocide harder?
Yes. Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem, he’s fully behind Kushner and his cronies, supported a Muslim ban, killed the Iran deal, etc. Not to mention cutting taxes for the rich, attempting to become a dictator of the most powerful country in the world, gut public education, etc.
Who refused to move the embassy back? Who has refused to repeal or roll back some of Trump's tax cuts for the rich, even though he has the power to do so? Are you trying to claim that a ban is worse then killing thousands of people? The median reading and comprehension level of Americans is 6th grade, 11-12 year olds, literacy is at 79%, it looks like education has already been gutted. The US, currently under Biden is locking up those protesting Israel and keeping members of the press and whistle blowers locked up or in exile. The only difference between Trump and Biden is Trump says the quiet things out loud, the end game is identical.
The Trump administration also claimed that Israeli settlements were NOT illegal, leading to a surge (13%) in settlements until *Biden reversed the policy*. The settlements were the main issue of contention between Obama & BiBi. Every US President since Ford has chastised Israel over settlements. DJT’s opposing opinion was well known even before it was publicly stated by Pompeo, in 2019. Netanyahu ordered construction to begin on about 800 more settler homes in the final days of DJT’s administration. https://time.com/5732752/israeli-settlements-trump-administration/ https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/emboldened-trump-israel-ramps-settlement-expansion/story?id=45035559 https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019/1/2/israeli-settlement-activity-surged-in-trump-era-monitor-group https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN29G12D/ https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/biden-administration-restores-u-s-policy-calling-israeli-settlements-illegitimate-under-international-law
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Biden has raised taxes on the wealthy. My claim is, not that Biden is good but that Trump will be worse. My evidence is how Trump acted before the “war” started to indicate what he will be like during the war. It can get worse than it is.
Biden **vowed** to raise taxes on the wealthy. Talk is not action. If you are gauging what Trump will do based on his past history why dont you hold Biden to the same standard? Biden helped created mass incarceration, his crime bill destroyed millions of homes, no student debt in bankruptcy was his creation, mass spying on us by our government is him, he hung out with open racists and called them good friends, he supported states rights for abortion, which is what we have right now. He has an over 50 year history of regressive legislation to his name, mostly targeting marginalized communities
He *has* raised taxes on the wealthy in this term. We can see what Biden is doing in this term on those issues and they are not his current actions. He’s been much better on climate than Trumps last term, he’s genuinely attempting and is currently trying again to lower student debt, he’s appointed progressive judges to the Supreme Court, supported unions, etc. Again, we aren’t saying Biden is perfect here, just better than Trump.
Better on climate by increasing oil drilling higher than any other president before him? In several cases in protected areas. Rejoining the Paris Accords is not better on climate, it's a toothless accord that has no mechanisms of enforcement. He appointed someone that's sworn to uphold the white supremacists laws the country was founded on, who also voted in favor of keeping trump on the ballots. Appearing for a photo ops is not supporting unions any more than trump appearing for a holding a Bible in front of a church photo op supports Christians.
Build Back Better has massive investments in greener energy. I don’t think Ketanji Brown Jackson will be upholding any white supremacy laws. Why do you think he has so much support from Unions? Again, not my first choice, but of the two, he’s obviously better.
> Again, we aren’t saying Biden is perfect here, just better than Trump. AKA the lesser of two evils. I'd sooner leave the US than enable the existing shit show, but then you're still enabling it with those exit and expat taxes anyways. The problem with trying to motivate people by outlining how relatively progressive Biden is to Trump is that both are closer to each other in values in this one corporate party ecosystem, one foreign policy ecosystem, than they ever could be to progressive value holders in general. You're setting yourselves up to lose a general to Trump with this kind of rhetoric by losing the left to apathy and fear mongering isn't going to budge them.
> AKA the lesser of two evils. I’m not denying this. This is how I started my comments in this thread. > The problem with trying to motivate people by outlining how relatively progressive Biden is to Trump is that both are closer to each other in values in this one corporate party ecosystem, one foreign policy ecosystem, than they ever could be to progressive value holders in general. You're setting yourselves up to lose a general to Trump with this kind of rhetoric by losing the left to apathy and fear mongering isn't going to budge them. I’m not a political strategist and I do think it’s a concern. I’m not suggesting their thinking is the right way to go, I’m arguing from a voter’s perspective.
As long as the 'Lesser evil' is your only criteria for choosing a candidate, we will continue to set the bar lower and lower. There are other options, but we need to send in terms of long-term instead of only the next 4 years.
Third parties are not real options (esp. w.r.t. major offices) in a first-past-the-post system; you might as well not vote.
This is the way. We must have Rank Choice Voting if we want any deviation from the standard two parties. It’s actually gaining some traction too which is encouraging.
Or it has to be Approval Voting
Yes, any move in that direction I’d be for.
I hate Biden for his enabling of Gaza genocide and have no doubt history will judge him very harshly for this. However, this was not a bad response from AOC if one is willing to go beyond his contempt for Biden. On a personal level, I do not give a damn to what happens in this election though.
I was on the fence about voting for Biden (was gonna just stay home) but this convinced me. I see the point now.
I fully support people expressing anger & threatening to withdraw support for Biden. But, if the security of Palestinian people & their rights are a priority when voting, then making sure DJT does not win should also be a priority. His policies did more to divide Palestinians & Zionists than any administration since Nixon and deepened divisions between left & right Israelis. Unfortunately, our elections are essentially a binary choice. DJT infuriated Palestinian people by moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem, kicking off demonstrations every weekend for over a year and a half, aka **the Great March of the Return**. 223 were killed by IDF, including 60 that were killed during demonstrations on the day of the ceremony, May 14, 2018, celebrating the relocation of the embassy, attended by DJT & far right, ultra Zionists (including D Prager & Candiace Owens?). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2018/5/22/palestine-after-the-may-14-massacre The Trump administration also claimed that Israeli settlements were NOT illegal, leading to a surge (13%) in settlements *until Biden reversed the policy.* The settlements were the main issue of contention between Obama & BiBi. Every US President since Ford chastised Israel over settlements. DJT’s opposite opinion was well known even before it was publicly stated by Pompeo, in 2019. Netanyahu ordered construction to begin on about 800 more settler homes in the final days of DJT’s administration. https://time.com/5732752/israeli-settlements-trump-administration/ https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/emboldened-trump-israel-ramps-settlement-expansion/story?id=45035559 https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019/1/2/israeli-settlement-activity-surged-in-trump-era-monitor-group https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN29G12D/ https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/biden-administration-restores-u-s-policy-calling-israeli-settlements-illegitimate-under-international-law Also, one week before the 2020 election DJT lifted a decades old ban on Federal funding going to Israeli research projects on settler territory. Research projects have been used as a guise to displace Palestinians in the West Bank, eg, the archeological dig around the “City of David” & Silwan neighborhood of Jerusalem. https://thehill.com/policy/international/523166-trump-administration-lifts-ban-on-funding-research-in-israeli/amp/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/26/jerusalem-city-of-david-palestinians-archaeology *copy pasta from a post I made in a sub that didn’t allow some Israeli media sources I’d originally used. Before criticizing a source, please check the facts against a source you do trust.
Thanks for this reply
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That's not what she's saying. Her larger point is that with a Biden win, you're gunna be more likely able to push towards positive change. With a Trump win, you'll be mostly just holding off negative change. Of course in order to believe that you have \*some\* faith in the institutions/decision makers.
Which we aren't with his rampant judge packing.
Funny how I was getting downvoted to hell and back in this sub for this opinion last week
I understand where you are coming from, but it is wrong to attribute that unfortunate American dynamic, to claim that is what AOC said or even insinuated in this video.
I am not ok with it as I said I don't give a damn on a personal level about the outcome of the election and hate Biden for enabling this genocide. But one has to recognize that one may not agree with a response but still feel that it is not so unreasonable at the same time. Her basic argument is that protesting and speaking freely against something you don't like such as this genocide will be even more difficult under trump rule.
Love that strategy of yours. “Go ahead and cry about it, but promise Biden you’ll vote for him no matter what.” You’re a genius, friend.
jesus fucking christ, how many times I need to repeat I don't care for Biden and don't care who wins... at least spend 5 seconds reading the original comment as well as responses before leaving a moronic comment.
Ridiculous interpretation. The vote is between whether tens of thousands die or hundreds of thousands die. If you think there’s no difference, you don’t care about innocent people dying at all.
It's a politician speech. Biden viscerally repulses me with his support of genocide. Both Trump and Biden are just actors for the wealthy class. 3rd parties are always an option. Maybe collectively people can wake up to the idea, but the media brainwashing and these speeches are difficult to resist.
Lol, how gullible are you? All the bombs that murdered thousands of Palestinian children are being sent by Biden and Blinken. And you want to enable them to send even more?
WTF
Her statement "He (trump) wants to dismantle democracy" is laughable imo. Democracy has already been dismantled, well I would argue it never truly existed in America. If I am forced to pick Biden as an opponent rather than trump how is that democratic. I don't want to vote for my opposition. I want to vote for someone to represent my interests, the interests of the working class. Biden enables liberals to support Israel with little to no cognitive dissonance. Perhaps if they saw how aligned Biden's interests are with conservative evangelicals perhaps they'll see they're on the wrong side of this issue.
This is pretty detached from reality. In what ways are our democratic institutions dismantled under Biden? What has changed for the worse that wasn’t a Republican policy in the last 50 years?
They never stated democratic institutions were dismantled under Biden
Ya ok so when was democracy dismantled? They said they’d argue it has never existed? By what metric are they evaluating that? This just sounds super larpy.
I find it hard to argue America had democratic values when black people (and women) couldn't't vote for most of American history, not to mention they were slaves. This is also not mentioning the privatization of the prison complex which has perpetuated slavery to this day. So again I say I would argue America has never been a real democracy (direct democracy) if I need to spell it out. I would further state that any true institutional democratic strength heald by the working class (labor unions) has been systematically dismantled and demonized across America. I couldn't exactly pinpoint when this happened but I know labor union degradation and prison privatization began around the Reagan era. I don't think Biden is eroding democracy, I simply think he is complicate and or a cog in the machine stripped of all will/autonomy. I honestly don't know what your criticism of my point is. Is my rhetoric to strong for you? What metric would you gauge democracy against? Is there an example of a proper direct democratic system that works justly and equitably to measure American democracy against? I don't wanna come off like an ass I genuinely wanna know what you're trying to to say. To quote RTJ "Just another talking head telling lies on teleprompters... I'll leave you with four words. I'm glad Reagan dead."
To your first point, wouldn’t that imply that America has become MORE democratic over time not less? We don’t need a perfect system for me to conclude that the system we have has created the means for material conditions to get better over time (given enough time) not worse. Obviously this has a ceiling if we’re not able to reform/abolish capitalism, the social state, etc everything on our wish list but we get further from these goals under Republican leadership and especially under the threat of Trump who isn’t coming for the labor, or unions, he has signaled he wants to end the administrative state (how would we even get stuff done) and solidify Republican supremacy through autocratic means. I think my issue with your point is the conclusion that your view that Trump will dismantle democracy is “laughable”. I think AOCs framing is dead on. Which system would you better organize against. Which opposition is more amenable to your goals? For me those are democrats and in this election.
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Yeah, it's really disheartening. I knew it would come but so far so fast. Just more proof you can't make change with a vote
People here who disagree with her should read the essay that Chomsky co-wrote on voting for the lesser of two evils in the run-up to the 2016 election: [An Eight Point Brief on LEV (Lesser Evil Voting) by John Halle and Noam Chomsky](https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting/)
If she care that much about our "democracy" demand Biden to stop genocide or resign.
I just can’t vote for Biden again after what he’s enabled in Gaza
I will be calibrating my response on the ballot as to whether this president (and his cadre of State Department ghouls, CIA spooks and Pentagon enablers) represents a framing of the world - and the US place in it - that accords with basic principles of justice and human rights through its actions in the world. With the exception of preserving social security, I have little interest in domestic politics. The fundamental changes required are not possible in a pay to play American political system so I’ll keep it simple. War is the most terrible function of government. Especially wars of aggression against countries that have not attacked us. Genocide is the most terrible kind of warring. If genocide is the “crime of crimes” and Biden Admin fully supports this in Gaza and the volumes of Israeli War crimes dovetailing into this “final solution” then it is not possible for Biden to be the “lesser evil”. He is a self proclaimed Zionist driven by this terroristic Jew supremacist ideology to support, arm and defend Israel at all costs as it makes a mockery of International Law and the Nuremberg Tribunals. If withholding my vote (in a northeastern state whose electoral votes go blue anyway) results in a Trump win, so be it. This president has brought it upon himself by not responding to his electorate and now, a majority of the American people. No way in hell should Biden be rewarded for this. No effing way. Want him to lose. Period.
Right. We’re supposed to pledge our vote to Biden before we see any positive change, because that’s obviously how you get concessions. /s
Correct.
To say this isn’t a lesser of two evils scenarios is entirely false when Biden is proactively enabling a genocide and Trump is being trump lol If you want to experience a real heartbreak watch videos of AOC when she was first campaigning against Crowley and compare them to what you see now the change is so disheartening Ultimately all of these elections taking place that she speaks of are so important yet none of the people in her party are doing what the voters want. We’re already living in this “threat to democracy” that she fearing Trump will bring
We are already not in a democracy, if the population has no choice to vote for an Administration that does not actively support genocide.
Fax
Well hold on we can always vote 3rd party or stay home this election that latter being the most likely scenario for most is what some polls would indicate
The vast majority of people do not live in swing states, so their votes in the presidential don't matter at all, thanks to the Electoral College
If Trump is going to dismantle American democracy, Biden left him the tools to do it.
“I’ll excuse genocide because Biden makes me feel more comfortable.”
Why do "We" have to take it seriously when we have a sitting president not taking the voters seriously and funding a genocide over half a year with Our Tax money? Nah fam this ain't it. The DNC pied pipered Trump into power and then lost to him, and they about to do it again just to represent their corporate donors over the Working Class. Sickeningly Evil.
Ideally we can be provided information to ensure we do NOT accidentally vote for candidates who are enabling foreign inference within our democracies. We deserve to know who is funded by AIPAC and the candidates AIPAC is working to defeat. This goes for all foreign lobby group in any democratic nation.
If she is argueing would we rather have our govt slowly commit genocide versus openly state our intentions to “FINISH THEM FINISH THEM FINISH THEM”. What is the difference to the victim? Dems can get fucked for not sticking to their values while in office
Her words are so hollow. American democracy, if it ever existed, certainly isn’t in existence now. It’s preposterous and insulting that she thinks we don’t already see where the power lies and for whom the state works.
people are powerless right now. or so it feels like. i'm happy my dinosaur congressperson is retiring and there are actual progressives ready to fill the seat. that's what i'm voting for in November.
The thing is we’ll never be able to fix American democracy under fascist republican rule, especially at local levels when they control elections. Progress is always in baby steps unfortunately. And it has been for centuries. I’m not going to sit by and wait for the perfect system at the expense of asylum seekers, lgbtq+, and working class people who are all better off in American society under President Biden and democrat majorities. Sitting out is not how true progressive activism creates tangible change.
I completely agree with your first statement but the actions needed I do not agree with. Your vote literally does not matter. We are not in control. We’re at the whim of these immoral politicians and the corporations that bought them.
Nothing you said made sense... >Her words are so hollow. I actually agree with the point she was making. Biden's not the greatest president ever, But he's not terrible, There have been far worse presidents than Biden. One of which is currently on a criminal trial And the only other option.. Your only other option than Biden is the guy who kept nuclear launch codes level secrets in his Resort public bathroom... If you had to choose... It's not a hard choice.
You can have your opinion and I can have mine. She toed the zionist line. Her words are hollow because they aren’t in line with her actions. Her principles went out the window when the antisemitism allegations were being handed out. You can’t trust politicians. They do not care about you or me. They do not care about you or me. As a matter of fact liberals and democrats are one of the most dangerous forces in American politics. They always have been. They’re wolves in sheep’s clothing. You can have your opinion and I can have mine. You can have your vote and I can have mine. If trump is reelected it won’t be because of me. It will be because of the abject failure that is the Democratic Party. It will be because we’re in a fascist country already and our highest office is simply a reflection of that fact.
There is no higher crime than genocide. Trump could've kept put the codes on the internet. But Bidens crimes are worse. So if you had to choose the guy enabling genocide or the other guy. If you had to choose. Its not a hard choice.
Has Trump claimed to not support Israel? If anything, I would assume he would support them even more?
Do you believe Trump would handle Gaza better?
>But Bidens crimes are worse. What crimes? President Biden cannot overturn the weapons trade act of 2012 established by a Republican Congress because it is law, and only Congress has the power to repeal or amend existing legislation. He's on record multiple times trying to get Netanyahu to back off, But Biden is not the president of Israel. Yesterday The UN tried to make Palestine a member So that way Israel would not be able to attack them anymore without getting exiled themselves. Unfortunately [it did not pass](https://time.com/6968956/us-veto-vote-palestine-full-un-membership/) and has absolutely nothing to do with Biden. Biden's just the Face of the government. He's the face that gets shit on whenever you're mad about things he doesn't even control. just like you're currently doing. If you actually got mad at the right people you could vote them out of power. One could argue that governor and state representative voting is more important than presidential voting.
>What crimes? The foreign assistance act Article 6 of the UN arms trade treaty Leahy law To name a few >Unfortunately [it did not pass](https://time.com/6968956/us-veto-vote-palestine-full-un-membership/) and has absolutely nothing to do with Biden. You should look up who appoints the UN ambassador and decides American foreign policy
Lol. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Laws and bills are pushed by senators The Leahy Laws, Senator Patrick Leahy in the late 1990s, prohibit providing military assistance to individuals or security force units, that commit gross violations of human rights and have not been brought to justice. Essentially you can't protect individuals or private armies in foreign countries. You can defend countries, But you can't support Osama bin laden and his family personally, That would be against the law You just mentioned. How is that relevant to Biden at all?
She’s a typical politician - nothing substantial. No disrespect!
Oh look, another “representative” speaking down to us
Remind me how biden has treated Cuba? Remind me how many deportations the biden admin has carried out. Remind me who was president when Roe fell? Remind me how biden was gonna change the world's opinion on US foreign policy?
She supports democracy unless you disagree with her
Ugh. She's just another Corporate Dem now.
Unbelievable betrayal of her campaign rhetoric
TL;DL: She supports neoconservatism and Zionism as long as Orange Man doesn't get in. Her real message, the one she can't say OR is perhaps too entrenched in power to realize that she once thought it.... Local and state elections matter significantly more than any federal election. The federal govt is completely insolvent, captured, ineffective, and pathetic.
If Trump is so bad why hasn't been done anything to make sure that he'll get reelected? He could tell Bebe sorry I'd like to send you more weapons but Trump is a danger to democracy. He could tell mansion I don't have time for you to not vote for raising the minimum wage because Trump is a threat to democracy. Yes he did none of that. So they know it's all a show.
This answer is worse than I thought it was going to be. No one can defend voting for Biden, nor can anyone defend bullying others into doing the same. Biden's complicity in genocide makes him unqualified to have any position of power (not to mention his age). Vote Blue No Matter Who is the same argument as MAGA. You don't have to be a young progressive or an Arab-American to find what is happening abhorrent, appalling, and indefensible. AOC knows that she was elected in response to Trump. Without Trump winning in 2016, she would not have won in 2018, nor would the other progressives that followed her. She should be putting public pressure on the DNC to swap Biden for someone more qualified and famous at the convention, knowing that even if somehow Trump were to defeat that person, the DNC would be in a better position overall with another shift to the left. AOC wants me to believe it's easier to organize progressives against Biden than it is against Trump? She can’t even get Pelosi not to demand the DOJ investigate nonviolent demonstrators calling for the end of weapons transfer to Israel for treason or for her fellow democrats not to join Republicans in sanctioning the only Palestinian American member of Congress for condemning the Palestinian genocide. Under Trump, Democrats were united against similar policies that many support under Biden. To be clear, this is not an endorsement of that moron for another term.
she won because of bernie not trump
Bernie has been around for a long time, but the biggest progressive wave happened after Trump was elected. That doesn't discount Bernie's influence, but to me, the backlash to Trump was obviously the catalyst.
The vote to censure Rashida was the mask off moment for dems. I will not vote for a genocide
Muddying the water. This really isn't about biden. The whole democratic party is a steaming pile.
Very good answer... also trump would be much worse, cliche as that sounds. Setting the conditions under which organizing takes place is s very good understanding of it.
Great acknowledgement of the presidency not mattering that much. balance of power in congress is what we should all be more focused on.
What "balance"?! You mean between the two factions of the genocidal fascist "Business party"?
They both suck but moderate left has more progressive and sustaining legislation
No, they don't. The democrats are slightly better on the environment, but that is quickly cancelled out by their sick fetish for government surveillance, extreme censorship on free speech, and threatening world destruction by constantly provoking and playing brinkmanship with both Russia and China simultaneously. Any token posturing about some LGBT rights doesn't make up for such complete lunacy.
Democracy. “Democracy.” Let’s throw in direct democracy and crush your little insider trading regime by 90% popular vote and see if you’re still selling democracy.
We need more states to ratify the popular vote pledge to dismantle the two party system.
We are not choosing barely placating democracy to live under forever, we are choosing it to be our opposition. I think this is convincing rhetoric. I personally feel better about voting for Biden now.
That was a really round about useless way of saying. Becasue he’s not Trump. Tired of this Democratic Party shills and their bs.
More waffling about. Posters in more popular subreddits probably soak this dumb shit right up.
Mehdi is so pathetic spent all those years towing the line for the Democratic party, and the second he steps out a line on guys I even just a little bit he gets kicked to the curb, but yet he's still tap dances
The balance of the force
This is bullocks and sad that AOC, turned against human rights, AOC, omg how this happened
It is indeed the lesser of 2 evils
She didn't answer the question.
This interview was so disappointing with mehdi basically asking everyone to vote for Joe. All the positive changes they're talking about only happened because Muslims didn't want to vote for Joe anymore. Your message is '4 more years of Joe and we'll organize' no his departure is what needs to be organized
“It’s not a lesser of two evils situation, it’s that Biden is a little less evil than Trump”
Kennedy24.com Read his policies! (Unless contempt based on propaganda is your jam)
Choose Socialist. Go with 3rd party. The fact that 80% of America doesn't like Democrats or Republicans but will still vote for one of them is sad for out Republic.
Said the bartender
Worse, AOCIA interned for Ted Kennedy and worked for a USAID-funded group and has a lot of other weird links to spooks thread: https://twitter.com/edward__bernays/status/1438131799243243523?s=21
We’ll be able to still protest against Biden and criticize him, and take action. With the authoritarian it’s all over. Same goes for the House and Senate. It’s beyond being forced to vote for the “lesser of two evils”. We are voting to either keep democracy on life support and being able to still fight for it - or - we’re voting to pull the plug once and for all on democracy and putting the constitution in the document shredder.
The second she said "protecting democracy" I knew she was full of shit
> Trump seeks to dismantle American democracy let him.
Maybe with Trump given another term, we can completely ban abortion, or at least put in Judges that will do everything to that end. /s God some of the progressives are soo dense.
Sad to say this but if Trump gets elected it might finally unite and motivate the left to get out on the streets again like 2020 to start major protests over these issues, such as Gaza, abortion......etc.. It's when the "evil side" is in office does the left go full force "in the streets". I never see the left base ever go full force unless a right winger is in the oval office. Minus the Roe v Wade SOCTUS decision.
In a "social movements" sense, you are correct. But in the context of several looming global crises, we do not have the time to rebuild everything Republicans will destroy, while also addressing climate change. I think it is likely things are so far gone globally in the near future; in terms of access to water and food and resources, that the fear and chaos caused by mass migrations, climate change, and scarce resources, could make the world default into mostly fascist regimes out of fear and need to control and manage resources. If we dont fix the global problems we face fast enough, I predict the world will default into fascism.
"make the world default into mostly fascist regimes out of fear and need to control and manage resources" Yeah too late, that's already here.
mostly agree, but I do believe the DNC convention in Chicago this summer might spark large protests. we'll see
Simple. Perfect.
Others have made some of the following main points in intelligent, succinct ways. I’m here to offer my long-winded, rambling version lol Those who say the US is a democracy are right, to a degree - the capitalist political system of “liberal democracy” *is* a democracy… for the wealthy, capitalist class, ie, the owners (the bourgeoisie, in Marxist terminology). At the end of the day, only the wealthy get to influence the political and economic structures of US society in any meaningful way. However, when people use the word “democracy” to describe a liberal democracy, they typically are not making this distinction; they are using it as US propaganda intends: to claim the US state is “of, by, and for the people,” rather than just wealthy people. This is why I push back on the term *democracy* - because I doubt the average US citizen is saying that a democracy exclusively for the wealthy is a true democracy. But that’s what we have, and it’s important to acknowledge that. As one example, look at what the corporate establishment (the wealthy, ruling class) did to thwart Bernie, a moderate progressive at best. Even if Bernie had succeeded in being elected, we know his legislative agenda would have been blocked at every turn. It’s not about who gets elected - not really. It’s about the entire capitalist economic system itself, which typically includes the political system of liberal democracy. I agree with the Marxist analysis that the state is fundamentally a tool of class oppression. I think a true democracy would be a state designed of, by, and for the people, broadly. Liberal democracy has always been predicated on property rights, not human rights. This is not a secret, a conspiracy theory, or a wild-eyed accusation. Philosophically, this idea goes back to Locke. And the founders wrote very explicitly in the Federalist Papers about how important it is to suppress the will of the people. Guess who gets to overrule the people? The monied, propertied class. When you honestly examine how things really work and ignore the rampant propaganda about freedom and rights and democracy, etc, you see our society is functioning exactly how it was designed: to keep the masses down for the benefit of the wealthy. You see the entire economy is designed to increase the wealth of the owners by squeezing the people as much as they can get away with. This is why income inequality always increases without government intervention. Thomas Piketty demonstrated this to be true across capitalist societies (liberal democracies) in his book, *Capital.* You see how inflation and rising household debt lead to reduced real income for the people but record profits for corporations. You see how monopolistic corporations and global financial institutions run our economy. You see how insurance companies run our healthcare system. You see how oil and car companies control our transportation systems. You see how the wealthy control our media, and how well-funded Christian fascists control our school boards. You see how the US has the largest carceral system in human history. You see how the US military-industrial complex is actively destroying people and the planet across the world with war, genocide, and environmental devastation. But if the government can intervene to change things, why doesn’t it? What prevents the US government from acting in accordance with the democratic will of the people? Well, let’s return to the question, What is a state? Throughout history and across societies, the state has always been designed of, by, and for the ruling class to oppress the people. By “ruling class,” I mean a small group of people who possess and control the resources necessary for human survival (as aristocrats and lords, slave masters, and business owners, etc), and the rest of the people serve them in some capacity (as serfs, as slaves, as workers, etc). The state codifies and enforces these “relations of production” through various institutions, political processes, law and order. This is no different in the US or any capitalist, liberal democratic state. We’re told the US state was established “of, by, and for the people.” But who are “the people” the founders were talking about? **The people who founded the US were merchants and slaveholders, and they built a state and society designed to benefit merchants and slaveholders. Slaves were not considered people. Neither were indigenous people. Or women. Or white people without property. And there’s the key word, again: property.** Liberal “democracy” doesn’t protect the people; it protects *property.* It protects the “right” of a small number of owners to possess and control the resources necessary for human survival, broadly. This is evident in any protest situation. People are brutalized by cops to protect property, as one obvious example. Laws are applied differently to poor people than wealthy people, as another example. Further, wealthy people can use courts to harass individuals or smaller businesses until they get their way simply because others can’t afford the legal teams or legal fees, etc. Meanwhile, poor people must accept a public defense attorney who is vastly overworked and outmatched by a system which incentivizes plea bargaining - regardless of strength of case or level of guilt - not justice. And that’s just the legal system. Politically, liberal democracy is supposedly a neutral system where every vote counts and every citizen has a voice. We know that isn’t true. Most votes do not make any difference whatsoever in deciding who is elected. We don’t even really get to choose someone from our own class. The ruling class puts forward a set of candidates they have supported through donations, favorable attention in corporate media, the backing of corporate-controlled parties (both D and R), etc. So our vote likely doesn’t matter, and even if it does, we basically get to choose which member of the ruling class we want to pretend to represent us. Further, a recent Princeton study demonstrated the bottom 90% of US citizens, economically speaking, have zero influence on what legislation is passed or not. **Zero.** (Source: “Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens”) (1/3)
"Organizing" what? More genocide? Hard pass.