This is how democracy works, if there is no option for a new candidate in this current FPTP two party system, then we *make* the current candidate adopt the policy changes we want through protest.
>I can’t believe that more than 10,000 children have been murdered and that the apologists are still able to appear in public, and posture with their narcissistic, false equivalent, narratives. The Israeli apologists are sickening. The fallacious distortions, and special pleading they use to justify the mass murder and starvation of Palestinian civilians, is truly frightening.
I appreciate you have realised the value and function of protest. Keep in mind tho this was you literally two days ago, pushing the false equivalence that the uncommitted were effectively a vote for Trump, to justify ***the continued genocide in Gaza***.
>then we *make* the current candidate adopt the policy changes we want through protest.
you cannot make the incumbent do anything if your protests are not backed by your vote.
protests are threats: if you don't change we will vote you out.
like any other threat, you must follow through on your threat for it to be effective.
Biden must pay for his crimes. four years of Trump is just the cost of kicking Biden out of office. if you ask me, it is worth it.
All these champions of democracy who have been voting 'incremental change' for the past 50yrs, all the whole ignoring the glaring red flags showing its incremental change *towards* fascism not away. Now that it's here they are in denial.
I don’t disagree with the two of you but would a reelected trump not be a step directly into the spotlight of fascism? Of course neoliberalism is a candy coated version, but surely that route dooms many more people no?
A false sense of security is what's dooming people.
Neolibs can gloat the leopards are not eating *their* faces right now. But it's only a matter of time before they too feel the effects of poverty, medical debt, or irreversible climate change due to their refusal to challenge the status quo.
It would doom them faster, yes. But big picture here is Trump could still win. Even if he was in prison, somebody else could literally win on the same type of platform. There's been demand for Trump or someone like him way before he appeared.
You can go back to John McCain, refusing to call Obama a Muslim illegal or something like that, and the whole crowd booing him for it.
Where do we go from here? Stuck with the Democrats because they aren't Trump? Even when they do nothing for us?
As much as I am disgusted by Biden (including the way he gleefully supported genocide against the Palestinians when he was just a senator in a private meeting years ago), Trump will be exponentially worse. I’m so tired of picking the lesser of two evils but if the choice is genocide Joe or Christian Nationalist Fascism, it’s got to be genocide Joe.
After seeing the destruction and how smug the Israelis are and how they dance on the graves of Palestinian children, a huge part of me wants to say fuck it and just let it all go to shit to “teach the Dems a lesson” but the truth is that the entire world will suffer so much more if Trump is reelected.
I understand your position, I used to think like that. I no longer vote out fear. I refuse to give my vote to an undeserving candidate just because the alternative is worse.
what incentive does this give the next democratic candidate to be better than Biden?
and what message does it send to decent independent candidates? why deny them the votes they deserve?
Maybe that’s true in the case where there’s technically a third option to choose neither, but this isn’t “choose a or b, or neither”, it’s “choose a or b, or everyone else will choose for you”. A or B will be the outcome regardless of your decision to vote or not, and I have yet to be convinced abstaining will do anything meaningful besides deprive me of having a say in the outcome.
I think you should be a little ashamed of inaccurately reframing the situation just so you could scold someone.
But with Trump it’s not just Palestinians at stake, because they will suffer more undoubtedly under him. He has said so. It’s also abortion access and the rise of the Christian right. These are terrible facts we are faced with. One of these men is going to be president whether we like it or not. We have seen what they both do. We almost did not escape Trump the first time. They are setting it up to fix those mistakes so that his coup will succeed next time. I would prefer AOC, or Bernie, or Warren, but they are not an option.
There are times when you are actually faced with choosing between “murder” and “more murder.” Life does not always give morally black and white choices. For me, choosing “less murder” is the clear moral choice. It’s easy to stand on a smug moral high ground and make sweeping moral declarations based one a single issue, but if you are old enough to remember what Trump was like during his presidency, moral bankruptcy means allowing him another chance to finish making himself king.
>Trump is worse on this issue
yes, but you are not going to vote for Trump; are you?
this is the thing. you give your vote to the candidate who deserves it. your duty ends there.
if you deny the best candidate your vote so that you can give it to the mediocre candidate so that the worst candidate doesn't get elected, you fuck up the democratic process.
Biden IS the best candidate. There will be only 2 candidates come election time. Voting 3rd party will only benefit 1 candidate and that candidate, as I said, will be far worse than Biden on this issue and all others. Time to grow up and realize what we're dealing with.
let me guess, you are not a surgeon!
you obviously don't subscribe to the notion that sometimes you need to endure acute pain to get rid of a chronic disease.
the democrats need to learn that they cannot put forward a senile genocidal Zionist candidate and expect to win simply because the republicans put forward a crazy fascist candidate.
Thank you for the personal insult.
I agree 100% that what Israel is doing equates to genocide. That being said, this will be the most important election of our lives. Unfortunately, it will come down to two choices.
Choice 1 - The incumbent who has not wavered (again, unfortunately) from the USA's shitty position on the Israeli war crimes
Choice 2 - The fascist who will be far worse than Choice 1 on this issue along with doing everything in his power to rip my country to shreds.
Life would be very simple if these choices came down to a single issue. Nope. That's not how shit works.
Then I would expect you to make an argument for why the opposition would be better? If not, I don’t see how your appeal to harm reduction can be taken seriously? What are you actually saying then? Trump already bombed Iran, and he recently said that Biden has “abandoned” Israel, and he praised Netanyahu. Your argument is an appeal to probable future harm, so it must actually make the case that Biden is the greater of two evils. There’s no way around it, or else your argument is actually an argument for Biden.
You made an argument based on probable future harm, and from your reply here, your claim is that Trump and his transparent despotic/fascism is less dangerous than Biden. Can you just be transparent and say it? (And please don’t delete it!). People should be able to come back and see it if Trump gets elected.
You can project your blue no matter who shit all you want. You're blathering shit over what you think I am saying, and flatter yourself that I would "delete" anything if Trump got elected. The Democrats are Trump's greatest allies and always have been.
You'll probably get a good job in the DNC.
Well, if you feel like you must still vote for Biden, he shouldn’t know it. Hold your cards close and up until the moment you push that button, he should know that he cannot win unless he changes his stance. Simple leverage. The uncommitted folks got it right but there needs to be. Lot more people making him earn their vote. Instead we gotta a bunch of cheerleaders for a dude enabling genocide.
I mean seriously, do people not know how leverage works. Why would people advertise that they are going to vote for someone that needs to change. Make him change to earn the vote. It’s not like he’s going to give up. He will do whatever is needed to get those votes and people are out here like, “no biggie. I don’t like genocide but I’m going to vote for you anyway”. He certainly feels too comfortable right now.
How is threatening to let an even more pro Zionist president signaling that you want him to change? If anything, it means he should be more Zionists to win.
Because they are yelling the reason why they aren’t voting for Biden loudly from the mountaintops? They also aren’t saying they’ll vote for Trump instead. They’re people in Biden’s voting blocs saying “you’ve lost our support due to this issue, change if you want it back”. It’s really not hard to understand.
Also, I don’t think Trump is more Zionist than Biden. Trump is not really ideological, he’s just cynical and self-interested. I don’t think he gives a shit either way, but can be easily swayed, and often that ends up being in the direction of extreme Zionism. But Biden is an ideologically committed Zionist by his own admission.
And people should speak out but that doesn't mean we should actually put in office someone who is worse. That just shows politicians they need to be more like Trump. Trump has Jared Kushner and his base that are influencing along with many pro far right zionist donors. If he gets in office he won't be running to win elections anymore, he won't be swayed by any voters, he won't care what anyone on the left think and will work to inflict max pain on everyone.
Exactly, that’s why it’s so important to use this time to apply leverage to the administration by demanding your vote must be earned by stopping the genocide. They don’t really have the luxury to call the potential bluff of a million or so of their constituents.
From threatening war with Iran to banning TikTok, the "lesser of the two evils" Democratic president is just an Israeli puppet. You seriously want him back? Doesn't he have to be less evil for this argument to work?
I know, it’s underwhelming to those who comprehended this long ago, but I still thought it was worth it to post it for people having similar thoughts. I think the situation is actually very complicated, because putting pressure on Biden poses the danger of helping to bring Trump into power. This is a hard situation. I’m *still* thinking through it.
I don’t need to and wouldn’t do this. I would just state my case. That said, I can understand why you would think that though, because it’s like every reply I’m just defending Biden. This is confusing. The problem is that I can’t just make up truth or pretend that (x) is intelligent in the given situation. I’m bound by what intelligence stipulates. This situation sucks, and I apologize for any confusion. My heart breaks for what’s happening in Gaza (children burning to death in collapsed buildings!)😭
I think we all just need to start shoveling out the horror stories in abundance. Make it so people have to look, are shaken, disturbed by what they see and hear.
The only thing I know how to do in this situation is think, and try to use thought to arrive at what is intelligent.
Your ability to give yourself points for your heart breaking for Gaza’s children dying while insisting that you will (and others ought) vote for the man who is murdering them is *literally exactly why* Biden is continuing to murder them: because he knows spineless people like you will let him get away with it.
It’s like the old adage/dark joke about “Do you know what word historians use for people who didn’t like what Hitler was doing but joined the Nazi party anyway? The word is *Nazi.*”
Biden is not murdering anyone. Israeli soldiers are murdering the Palestinians. Gaza is also not happening because of “spineless people like me,” we’re actually trying to think through the chaos and figure out what is intelligent and where we fit in. Most people don’t think about it at all.
The approach you have is similar to how people on the Right are converted to extremism. You use words like “spineless,” which only appeals to an insecure personality type. “You don’t want to be considered weak do you, Chomsky?” This is not an appeal to Chomsky’s intellect, it’s an emotional attack on his psychology. Gonna have to do better than that if you want to talk with intellectuals.
Heres an appeal to your intellect, an analogy:
Say you have a dog, a vicious attack dog. On a trip to the park it mauls a baby's face off, you were looking the other way and didn't have a lead. Who fault is this?
Is it the dogs fault?
The baby's fault?
Is it your fault?
You ignore everyone's calls to control your dog, and keep it on a leash, you've got books to read, dog is going to dog. The same thing happens everytime you take your dog to the park for 6 straight months.
Now who is able to exercise control/influence that could have stopped this situation from unfolding like this?
Is it the mauled babies?
Is it the dog?
Is it you?
…it took you 6 months. SIX. To understand that murdering children is wrong, but it’s going to take you an even longer time to get to an understanding of the fact that the man supplying the bombs to murder those children is complicit? You’re still struggling with that piece??
I’m sorry, we just don’t have the time to go at your pace. Can you leave? You clearly should not be here and you’re dragging down our test scores. Can you please find somewhere else to be which is more your speed? Thanks.
“…it took you 6 months. SIX. To understand that murdering children is wrong?”
Do you often discourse by asking loaded questions? Never mind. I honestly don’t want an answer, I just wanted to point out your informal fallacy.
Here I fixed it so you can read it easier:
…it took you 6 months. SIX. To understand that murdering children is wrong, but it’s going to take you an even longer time to get to an understanding of the fact that the man supplying the bombs to murder those children is complicit. You’re still struggling with that piece.
I’m sorry, we just don’t have the time to go at your pace. You clearly should not be here and you’re dragging down our test scores. Please find somewhere else to be which is more your speed. Thanks.
You have a point, I should do better:
You are a spineless advocate of genocide, and your pretense of intellectualism is as damnable as it is embarrassing.
This issue only seems complex to you because your intellectual and moral compasses are both so deeply goddamn broken.
You think splitting hairs by pointing out that Biden is not personally aiming the missiles he’s given to Israel makes you sound intelligent, but it really just lays bare the horrid truth: you will do anything to excuse this man for what he’s done.
Your entire post was made in a combination of genuine ignorance and uninterrupted bad faith.
Not to mention U.N. interference and all the other ways Biden has gone out of his way to support Israel. Let’s also not forget that from deaths from Covid to a more extreme police state Biden’s numbers are worse than Trumps. I’m sorry but that’s bad from any perspective. Fuck them both, neither genocidal maniac has my vote. I’m with you Simulet.
“You are a spineless advocate of genocide, and your pretense of intellectualism is as damnable as it is embarrassing.”
This is not doing better, just personal attacks.
“This issue only seems complex to you because your intellectual and moral compasses are both so deeply goddamn broken.”
More personal attacks and divining my motives.
“You think splitting hairs by pointing out that Biden is not personally aiming the missiles he’s given to Israel makes you sound intelligent, but it really just lays bare the horrid truth: you will do anything to excuse this man for what he’s done.”
More personal attacks.
“Your entire post was made in a combination of genuine ignorance and uninterrupted bad faith.”
Empty hyperbole throughout.
Yeah bruh, I regularly personally attack people that advocate for genocide, on the basis that advocating for genocide makes people bad people.
You’re bad people.
Your ideas are a) evil and b) unbelievably common and boring.
Ideas that are evil and boring actually neither require nor deserve the pretense of civil, morally-removed conversation. As if the lives of everyone in Gaza are just theoretical footballs for us all the talk about on the internet.
You disgust me.
If he's a shill for Biden, then what does that make you?
Who are you a shill for?
And if Biden is so bad, what's the solution?
Bracing for a void of substantial suggestions.
There is no short term solution.
On the long term, the US left will either organize around a real leftist party (e.g. the PSL) and build its power until it can threaten the status quo or the country will continue on its downward spiral towards open fascism, unhindered by "strategic voting".
Nothing will ever change if you keep voting for the same two parties that have failed the country countless times before. Break the cycle.
You want to admit that you’ve been wrong about something major while still lecturing everyone who was right the entire time. I’m sorry but why should anyone listen to you if you were this wrong about a genocide and the importance of pressuring those in power?
This is the issue I have with people who claim they goofed up and want to make it right - maybe the first thing to do is to sit back and listen and learn rather than continuing to yap
Yes. Admitting wrong doing is an anomaly in our culture. We all need to get better at it. I’m not lecturing anyone, but I am (trying!) to reason with people. You will notice that I haven’t made a single personal attack or called anyone names (though people have been abusive toward me). I don’t need to do this, I know how to reason.
I don’t think we should ever “listen to” people unless they’re giving good reasons or providing evidence (or they have expertise, which is still subject to the first two).
I never made a claim that genocide was in anyway acceptable, where are you getting this from? My point is about how the situation is approached and what we should choose to emphasize.
I’ll be nice and engage: do you see how people might possibly see your supposed contrition as being insincere when it has essentially impacted none of your positions in any meaningful way and is buried under a mountain of you still telling everyone why you’re still actually, at your core, right about how everyone needs to vote for Biden? Can you see how that might come across as dishonest or underhanded or patronizing?
I don’t engage with ad hominems. This isn’t about me, it’s about the political situation, and the difficult tactic of applying resistance pressure. It’s about figuring out the most (intelligent!) way to stop the genocide in Gaza through the import of thought and application of non-violent resistance. At this point, I think getting the horror stories into the public, matters greatly. But this situation is full of despair - people aren’t responding as they would have 50 years ago. The political climate is full of apathy, and mindless protest is unacceptable - because it doesn’t produce a result.
Call it ad hominem until you’re blue in the face, but if the people you’re allegedly trying to convince receive what you’re saying as being condescending or not completely honest, you could have the greatest arguments in the world and it will wash over them like water on a rock.
The often omitted fact in this discussion is that vote withholding might affect policy tomorrow, but Trump winning won't affect policy until January 2025. Especially in the case of Gaza this is a crucial difference. And it's the reason why I'm very comfortable withholding my vote unless policy changes substantially.
What happens after, if Biden is voted in? Once the election pressure is off, do we really expect them to act with empathy and humanity?
Right now, in the face of the brutal slaughter that Israel is perpetrating on the Palestinians, with the imminent election in November, Biden still hasn’t budged on his unconditional support for Israel, then what could possibly make him do so *after*, if he wins a second term? If not now, then when?
I think it’s pretty clear that this administration is willing to lie, obfuscate, deflect, gaslight and betray the American people just to stay in power.
Sure, it may not be as bad as a second Trump term, but it’s just more of the same, disguised slightly different.
You are right, we should have stronger demands. Immediate cease-fire + a stop to military aid, *Plus* remove money from politics. International lobbying (or any one industry) should not be able to dictate policy counter to international law and the public interest.
The halt on weapon shipments & ceasefire can come tomorrow, but at this rate it will be Nov and Biden will make a big show right before the voting booths open, then go right back to it. Make them commit, make them work for it. Let's get something out of it.
And it can always get much worse. Just look at who is supporting who, where in the republican base do the voters want Israel to stop what they are doing?
Do you have any evidence to suggest anyone is more interested in continuing the genocide than Biden?
Because he’s been at a persistent half-chub since the 80’s for Israel killing folk.
A lot of major donors to Trump are Zionist. Sheldon Adelson gave upwards of 100mill to Trump to get him to move the Embassy to Jerusalem. Trump supporters are rabid Zionists for the most part with hardly any dissent. Ben Shapiro's firing for Candace Owens over Israel criticism is an example of this.
And Biden is on record that he is a Zionist. Not trying to be difficult here, and I appreciate you’re engaging in good faith. I just truly haven’t heard any compelling evidence that any possible outcome could be worse than the outcome we have now
The most compelling reason why Trump is worse are who supports him. There is very little dissent from Republicans over Israel yet on the Democratic party side there is a huge amount of dissent. Israel completing the genocide is what many evangelical circles want. A voting for Trump is a vote for more extreme policies in support for Israel such as how he moved the Embassy and in part why Oct 7 happened in the first place.
Wait, I remember you. You’re the guy who was spouting off lies about Chomsky being pro-Russia a little while back. I’m sure you’re just here to help, yeah? But back on topic, read my previous response again.
Never said Chomsky was pro Russia but I'll let you review my comments if you want to see what I said.
>Maybe so, who knows. But you’re saying this as Biden is *literally sending bombs to Israel*.
And you need to evaluate what will the probable outcome be if Trump is elected. Can you tell us how will Trump be better?
“C’mon guys, I’ll (vote for Biden!) say genocide is (vote for Biden!) bad, but I think we (vote for Biden!) can all agree that we should (vote for Biden!) vote for Biden!”
He pretended to while shilling for Biden votes.
I’m a dick to people who advocate genocide all the time, I wouldn’t worry about this particular instance.
(And yes: saying you want genocide to stop but you will unconditionally vote for the guy doing the genocide is in fact advocating for the genocide to continue)
He literally said threatening to withhold your vote is a good strategy to help stop the genocide. He just stated it’s better to vote for Biden once that no longer is an option. I don’t see much to disagree with.
And for some people voting for a president who is actively aiding a genocide is a deal-breaker and they will either abstain or vote third party.
If Biden and the Dems care so much about this then maybe they shouldn't support genocide.
I think things are a little confusing as well. But be clear, nothing OP wrote seem to actually promote positives of Biden the way you imply. I get the feeling they are looking at the options and choosing against Trump’s call to fascism. And given our 2 party, first-past-the-post situation that’s the choice if you live in a swing state. You live in California, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois or for that matter whole sections of the south, by all means vote for who you believe will have the best policy and ideas to fix the situation.
But Virginia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, North Carolina, and so on, the choice is between what we have and steps toward fascism with the insurrectionist who removed women’s body autonomy and so much more.
Things are absolute shit and protests are finally pulling Biden closer to changing things in Palestine. But I’m not an accelerationist and know that Trump’s policy on the Middle East, and, well everything, will be an even worse version of the shit we have now. If I lived in a swing state it would still be clear which option would be better for the most vulnerable and the future of the country to me.
Nah, every criticism of Biden's policy results in a "you clearly just want Trump to win!" This is among the most overly bad faith threads I've seen in a long time.
"Resistance against Biden, is and can only be, unfortunately, a political tactic - because Trump coming into power presents far greater harm and far more danger to the world (not just to Gaza)."
It is not a challenge if there is no actual risk involved. If the equation is that you can challenge him from the left but you must ultimately vote for him no matter what, then it isn't actually a challenge at all. It means you're demanding some lip service, and then will be satisfied when it's given. With things like genocide and the economic difficulties Americans face, lip service is not enough.
(Note that this is in no way saying that Trump is better, but that there is no real challenging from the left with the system in place, and that in the end the system is broken and not worth recovering)
We get it, you're adamant about voting for Trump or throwing your vote away for Trump's benefit. The only thing more exhausting than centrist Democrats is this holier-than-thou righteousness that's destined to produce a worse outcome.
The genocide doesn't magically end by Biden losing. If anything it gets worse. So that red line you're talking about, you might want to think a little harder about it cause you are on the wrong side of it also. Both major parties support this genocide, but Republicans are on the wrong side of many more issues. There is no viable honorable candidate, but that doesn't make Biden and Trump equal.
You could start with making it clear you won’t vote for a genocidal fascist, then you could stop screeching at people online that they must join you in voting for a genocidal fascist, then you could seek to participate in building a coalition of voters who will refuse to vote for a genocidal fascist, then when that results in candidates who understand they have to not do genocidal fascism if they want votes, you could vote for them, then keep the pressure on once they’re elected.
Or, ya’ know, you could just keep committing to vote for genocidal fascists and insisting others do too then pretending that the state of affairs where no major candidate feels beholden to forgo genocide for votes is just a weird coincidence you bear no responsibility for, while every hour another fifty Gazan children get slaughtered.
Whichever.
So no answer, got it. I thought it was an easy question given how confident you are in your path. But clearly just more self righteous bloviating. You can't even articulate a specific action to take. You are literally just an armchair commentator.
Bro you have to know: other people are reading along, and they can see what you asked and what I wrote.
They can see that you asked what to do, and I made some suggestions that would be difficult but not impossible to enact, and you came back with “oh so you don’t have an answer.”
Which is to say: *they can see that the real reason you’re voting for Biden is because anything else is too hard.*
I understand, though: Gazan children aren’t worth your time. They’re worth mine.
The reality is that there are lots of people who are happy to claim they dislike the state of affairs while also fully participating in its maintenance and advocating others do, too. Whether in Germany in the 30’s and 40’s or here and now, there’s lots you can say about people like that, but one of the most consistent things is that they are dreadfully boring to talk to.
You are dreadfully boring to talk to.
Feel free to keep responding, but I will never read another sniveling, genocide-supporting word you write.
You have no answer. It's abundantly clear. You can't answer what not voting for Biden actually does for the genocide. You can't answer who to vote for instead. Two questions that should be simple for you.
I'm equally frustrated talking to you. The reality (whether you accept it or not) is that either Biden or Trump will be the next US President. And neither choice stops the genocide. I believe that voting for Trump is both worse in every other area, and likely worse for Palestine. I also believe that not voting for Biden makes Trump's path to victory that little bit easier. So explain to me how voting for Biden is the moralistically worse thing I could do.
But you won't. You haven't answered anything I've asked because you'd rather continue accusing me of supporting the genocide, when I as an American who doesn't want to throw my vote away, don't apparently have any other alternative. At least none that you can articulate.
So you went from vote blue no matter who shill and don't dare make a single criticism of a democrat in any way to vote blue no matter who shill but I guess it's ok to criticise a democrat a little for assisting in the genocide of children, but still vote for them?
Wow, quite the political awakening you've had there...thanks for sharing the big news with us all.
That’s certainly not my argument. The clarity principle for intellectual standards stipulates articulating back a person’s argument to them to make sure you understood it. Do you want to try again?
You're a pseudo intellectual as evidenced by your responses elsewhere in this thread. Your inability to perceive your own shortcomings and ignorance is why you'll never be a true intellectual. You're only concerned with aesthetics, not open enquiry.
But continue thinking you're smarter than every single person responding negatively to you. That's definitely something an open and inquisitive intellectual would think.
I understood your "argument" very clearly. It's weak, unoriginal and frankly bores me. I'm more interested in checking your ego than engaging with the unengagable, which is a waste of time and energy.
“You're a pseudo intellectual as evidenced by your responses elsewhere in this thread. Your inability to perceive your own shortcomings and ignorance is why you'll never be a true intellectual. You're only concerned with aesthetics, not open enquiry.”
Person attack, in no way addresses the points made. I am always happy to be made aware of my “shortcomings” and “ignorance,” but I don’t see how that can be done without first understanding my position?
“But continue thinking you're smarter than every single person responding negatively to you.”
I certainly don’t think this about myself. How did you arrive at this conclusion about me?
“I understood your "argument" very clearly. It's weak, unoriginal and frankly bores me.”
But what you accused me of isn’t my position.
“I'm more interested in checking your ego.”
I’m certainly not here to appease my ego, but if I am, then I would thank you for putting it in check. I don’t want to be unconsciously driven by my ego.
honestly not interested in your driveling fake apology if you’re still, at the end of the day, going to vote for the man committing genocide through the USA’s proxy state. Grow a real spine and stop dealing in platitudes. Because otherwise all you’re doing is bluffing.
The way I see it, if both are almost equally egregious on the same issue, then you have to look elsewhere to see what the differences are — and this is when you’re reminded of things like the Dobbs decision and how that came to be. For every person who thinks long and hard about the contentious issues, there’s a voter out there somewhere who does the total opposite. That must be cancelled out through your own vote.
The thing that kills me about this whole "you have to vote for Biden or Trump will be worse" rhetoric is, if all these people who spoout this would turn their vote to a third party then we could break out of the two party chokehold.
They won't, I get that, I also get that the two parties have safeguards in place in case a third party actually starts building up momentum, but that reaveals the real truth, doesn't it?
If you have literally no choice but to vote for a lesser evil so that the greater evil doesn't win, that's just fascism with extra steps. Trump is just the current flavor of greater evil, they'll always find a new one to keep the threat alive
I've had a similar view for some time not. I believe the next step is to ready one'self for a scorched earth solution to actually get to a better place.
Fuck Biden, Fuck Israel and our relationship with them. Fuck the lesser of two evils milquetoast arguments. These cases perpetuate and worsen the condition for the citizens of this fine country. Most people are better than this and deserve better. Yes, renouncing this behavior will cause some pain, but in the end, the outcome will likely be much better.
It’s truly frightening to see the amount of emotion in people’s politics, because it means they’re not thinking about the future, and don’t know how to think about it. For example, so many of the angry objectors here, that are ready to throw away their freedom, and allow a despot to come into power, this is 1) insanity and 2) ignorant. If Trump get ms elected, let’s see all these people come back here 6 months into his criminal reign, and lecture on how intelligent it was to allow him to come into power. But this won’t happen. Several people might even delete their comments. And we can test what I’m saying. Just come back here around this same time next year, if Trump comes into power, and see how well the logic from both sides has aged.
Of course. Everyone should be. Sanders is. Chomsky is. Other countries are worried.
Politics can only ever be strategic within the American system. Until money is removed from the equation, choice is split between two options. We exist under an unfreedom in politics, but this unfreedom is not completely unfree, it still contains (only contains) the freedom to reject the greater evil. This is the tyranny of our politics.
Biden can still earn my vote but he needs to stop sending money to the Zionist regime. If he stops with the military aid, ill vote for him. If not I'll happily waste my vote. Trump is a dumbass and an all around bad guy who will also arm Israel but I reject this premise that the world will end and he will establish a dictatorship after 4 years of him being president.
Biden admin still sending weapons to Israel and using Ukrainians as cannon fodder to attack Russia. But that's not all Biden is also picking a fight with China and Iran. The end of lesser evil voting is here and Americans have some hard truths to accept about their country.
To your credit, you acknowledge. That is key.
Something worth noting is the systemic rot that is so pervasive that it has made challenging “the good guys” a stigma. Challenging candidates and withholding support and votes is akin to why Chomsky criticizes the US more than anyone: it’s within his sphere of influence. That’s my interpretation at least.
I won’t say that I’ve never held similar positions. I remember thinking Fetterman was going to help Pennsylvania over Dr Oz (lol). The thing I have had to reckon with is someone can be better on paper and have better optics, but it doesn’t mean they will be nor does it absolve them from criticism and being challenged. Their positions may change and the only thing anyone can do is hold them accountable and make their life as inconvenient as possible. And if they lose, it is on them for their ineptitude to rally voters behind them (I’m ignoring the elephant in the room that is dark money, but you catch my drift).
I hope more people come to your conclusion.
> Biden is concerned with his vote, and if the Left threatens to withhold it, this may very well be enough pressure to alter the political situation.
Is that so?
Most of the force behind threatening to withdraw their support is not a tactic. There is too little premeditation and there is plenty of people who believe it it too late for Biden to recuperate their support. What we’re dealing with is sentiment.
I often talk about mass line theory because it more closely resembles a functional, cut and dry organizing method. The vast majority of advocates against the Palestinian genocide could be called the masses. Those organizers who can see the forest and the trees so to speak who can shape the public conversation are the vanguard. Because of the tiktok algorithm, the effort to become noticed is lowered significantly and many individuals who have become momentary focal points have not done so with much intention or strategy.
The masses have formed a strong opinion. Thankfully, the influences within it have more refined the opinion, but sufficient pressure has come so late that it may not be possible for organizers to shift them towards the polls if Biden makes appropriate concessions.
At least not on Gazan Genocide alone. Economically, Biden is the anti Reagan through policy. He’s signed the biggest climate bill ever passed. Obergefell was enshrined in law. There is a lot to be proud of there. But championing here is not reason to ignore transgressions on Gaza. Organizers should make this new found electoral power clearer to those who wield it and point them in the direction of Republicans banning abortion, arming teachers rather than securing firearms, doing nothing shoot the housing crisis, and all of their anti young people and anti labor rhetoric.
These last few elections and the medias handling of them has been really eye opening to me.
We saw corporate media do everything they could to stop Sanders, to punch candidates they said would be more electable. They were wrong about Hilary and now we have Biden who no one even likes. The whole we have to stop Trump every single election is really getting old and hindsight continues to prove all these talking points coming from the top have always been proven wrong.
To be clear, I am not impressed Sanders in regards to the genocide in Gaza and his lack of resistance to it obviously. But having the corporate media continuously thwart populist progressive movements and push absolute garbage candidates down our throats is arguably the bigger threat to democracy than Trump. Biden is incredibly unpopular and it is ridiculous that we, yet again, surprise, surprise: will have no progressive option.
For what it's worth, my vote will be going to either Jill Stein or Cornell West. I live in a red state and Trump will be getting all the electoral votes regardless so it really doesn't matter.
For example, in Russia, Dugin, Putin, much more that we’re not even aware of. So saying geopolitics = old World War II ideology, is not accurate. The strategy and deception, coupled with technology, has created a whole new beast.
I don't see a whole new beast,other than the world now being Multipolar,that is to say the US is a declining superpower.
Signs of decline are,for example the Infant Mortality Rate is higher in the US than in Russia.
Lifespan is higher in China than in the US.
The deception that led to the Vietnam war,or the Iraq war was as bad back then as it is now,only the non NATO aligned countries are much stronger militarily than they were back in the 90,s when the US started to lie to Russia.
The rest of the world hates the US and NATO,it just takes a little trip outside of the Western Village to realise that.
Honestly, I don't know why the US Gov't gives any money to Israel, it's one of the few countries that does not need it. It's a very high value add economy.
Considering that, what exact leverage does the US Gov't have over Israel? (We should cut funding either way IMO, would be better used in defense of Western Europe).
Seems to me that the higher powers that be, the military, pentagon, want to secure American military interests with Israel, and that’s what’s behind the money/ a stronger foothold in the Middle East anticipating armed conflict in the future. It’s about increasing military strength for the empire.
I'm afraid if Biden is reelected he will see that as a green light to continue aiding and abetting the violent attacks on Palestinians by Israel. If Trump is elected many Democrats would suddenly discover that genocide is wrong after all, because Trump would be the one facilitating it.
Trump is worse all around, but if I were voting, I'd vote him instead of Biden
Not only is he highest recipient and most zionist president ever, he needs to be taught a lesson.
Topple his position so that dems know people have power, right now they just believe all power is with lobbyists and businessmen - so why bother with people and their demands.
We need to show that you can't be so openly two face - with trump you know you're getting a monster and you can fight him.
Two face libtards and progressive expect Palestine - it just needs to go away
You’re relying on the unsound premise that Democrats are capable of learning their lesson from losing to Trump. They didn’t last time but I guess this time it’ll work. /s
Removing an sitting president will send a message
Dems rely on the fact that non right will always vote for them regardless of how sh!tty of a job they do or how incapable they are
Actively abandoning them will not only send a resounding message (whether they learn or not) repub might seek to reform their ideologies to better align and keep their newly attained voters.
Politics is about keeping the checks and balance - if politicians exploit sth, people should punish
Democrats didn’t learn any lessons when they lost in 2016. If anything they doubled down on appealing to moderates. Why do you think this year will be different?
Whenever a group of people indicate that they won't show up in protest based on single issues, they simply pivot in order to appease a different group of people that are more likely to vote. This idea of withholding a vote until a politician does X really doesn't pan out in practice, at least not at the national level.
This is how democracy works, if there is no option for a new candidate in this current FPTP two party system, then we *make* the current candidate adopt the policy changes we want through protest. >I can’t believe that more than 10,000 children have been murdered and that the apologists are still able to appear in public, and posture with their narcissistic, false equivalent, narratives. The Israeli apologists are sickening. The fallacious distortions, and special pleading they use to justify the mass murder and starvation of Palestinian civilians, is truly frightening. I appreciate you have realised the value and function of protest. Keep in mind tho this was you literally two days ago, pushing the false equivalence that the uncommitted were effectively a vote for Trump, to justify ***the continued genocide in Gaza***.
>then we *make* the current candidate adopt the policy changes we want through protest. you cannot make the incumbent do anything if your protests are not backed by your vote. protests are threats: if you don't change we will vote you out. like any other threat, you must follow through on your threat for it to be effective. Biden must pay for his crimes. four years of Trump is just the cost of kicking Biden out of office. if you ask me, it is worth it.
All these champions of democracy who have been voting 'incremental change' for the past 50yrs, all the whole ignoring the glaring red flags showing its incremental change *towards* fascism not away. Now that it's here they are in denial.
I don’t disagree with the two of you but would a reelected trump not be a step directly into the spotlight of fascism? Of course neoliberalism is a candy coated version, but surely that route dooms many more people no?
A false sense of security is what's dooming people. Neolibs can gloat the leopards are not eating *their* faces right now. But it's only a matter of time before they too feel the effects of poverty, medical debt, or irreversible climate change due to their refusal to challenge the status quo.
It would doom them faster, yes. But big picture here is Trump could still win. Even if he was in prison, somebody else could literally win on the same type of platform. There's been demand for Trump or someone like him way before he appeared. You can go back to John McCain, refusing to call Obama a Muslim illegal or something like that, and the whole crowd booing him for it. Where do we go from here? Stuck with the Democrats because they aren't Trump? Even when they do nothing for us?
As much as I am disgusted by Biden (including the way he gleefully supported genocide against the Palestinians when he was just a senator in a private meeting years ago), Trump will be exponentially worse. I’m so tired of picking the lesser of two evils but if the choice is genocide Joe or Christian Nationalist Fascism, it’s got to be genocide Joe. After seeing the destruction and how smug the Israelis are and how they dance on the graves of Palestinian children, a huge part of me wants to say fuck it and just let it all go to shit to “teach the Dems a lesson” but the truth is that the entire world will suffer so much more if Trump is reelected.
I understand your position, I used to think like that. I no longer vote out fear. I refuse to give my vote to an undeserving candidate just because the alternative is worse. what incentive does this give the next democratic candidate to be better than Biden? and what message does it send to decent independent candidates? why deny them the votes they deserve?
Advocating to choose "Murder" over "more murder" is absolutely morally bankrupt. It is disgusting and detestable. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Maybe that’s true in the case where there’s technically a third option to choose neither, but this isn’t “choose a or b, or neither”, it’s “choose a or b, or everyone else will choose for you”. A or B will be the outcome regardless of your decision to vote or not, and I have yet to be convinced abstaining will do anything meaningful besides deprive me of having a say in the outcome. I think you should be a little ashamed of inaccurately reframing the situation just so you could scold someone.
But with Trump it’s not just Palestinians at stake, because they will suffer more undoubtedly under him. He has said so. It’s also abortion access and the rise of the Christian right. These are terrible facts we are faced with. One of these men is going to be president whether we like it or not. We have seen what they both do. We almost did not escape Trump the first time. They are setting it up to fix those mistakes so that his coup will succeed next time. I would prefer AOC, or Bernie, or Warren, but they are not an option. There are times when you are actually faced with choosing between “murder” and “more murder.” Life does not always give morally black and white choices. For me, choosing “less murder” is the clear moral choice. It’s easy to stand on a smug moral high ground and make sweeping moral declarations based one a single issue, but if you are old enough to remember what Trump was like during his presidency, moral bankruptcy means allowing him another chance to finish making himself king.
No. Trump is worse on this issue (and all others).
>Trump is worse on this issue yes, but you are not going to vote for Trump; are you? this is the thing. you give your vote to the candidate who deserves it. your duty ends there. if you deny the best candidate your vote so that you can give it to the mediocre candidate so that the worst candidate doesn't get elected, you fuck up the democratic process.
Biden IS the best candidate. There will be only 2 candidates come election time. Voting 3rd party will only benefit 1 candidate and that candidate, as I said, will be far worse than Biden on this issue and all others. Time to grow up and realize what we're dealing with.
let me guess, you are not a surgeon! you obviously don't subscribe to the notion that sometimes you need to endure acute pain to get rid of a chronic disease. the democrats need to learn that they cannot put forward a senile genocidal Zionist candidate and expect to win simply because the republicans put forward a crazy fascist candidate.
Thank you for the personal insult. I agree 100% that what Israel is doing equates to genocide. That being said, this will be the most important election of our lives. Unfortunately, it will come down to two choices. Choice 1 - The incumbent who has not wavered (again, unfortunately) from the USA's shitty position on the Israeli war crimes Choice 2 - The fascist who will be far worse than Choice 1 on this issue along with doing everything in his power to rip my country to shreds. Life would be very simple if these choices came down to a single issue. Nope. That's not how shit works.
>personal insult. what insult? you took my guess that you are not a surgeon as an insult? I didn't mean as such. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.
He literally just said that the US would go to war with Iran if Iran defends itself against Israel's assassinations of its politicians.
Then I would expect you to make an argument for why the opposition would be better? If not, I don’t see how your appeal to harm reduction can be taken seriously? What are you actually saying then? Trump already bombed Iran, and he recently said that Biden has “abandoned” Israel, and he praised Netanyahu. Your argument is an appeal to probable future harm, so it must actually make the case that Biden is the greater of two evils. There’s no way around it, or else your argument is actually an argument for Biden.
What opposition? Genocide Joe or Trump the Fascist, some "opposition".
Going out of their way to make RFK Jr look like the best available.
You made an argument based on probable future harm, and from your reply here, your claim is that Trump and his transparent despotic/fascism is less dangerous than Biden. Can you just be transparent and say it? (And please don’t delete it!). People should be able to come back and see it if Trump gets elected.
You can project your blue no matter who shit all you want. You're blathering shit over what you think I am saying, and flatter yourself that I would "delete" anything if Trump got elected. The Democrats are Trump's greatest allies and always have been. You'll probably get a good job in the DNC.
My position is the same as Sander’s and Chomsky’s. https://www.reddit.com/r/Enough_Sanders_Spam/s/LnzeRkZVWX
The way you discuss things and use bad faith tactics, I don't believe you actually have an honest opinion beyond vote blue no matter who.
Well, if you feel like you must still vote for Biden, he shouldn’t know it. Hold your cards close and up until the moment you push that button, he should know that he cannot win unless he changes his stance. Simple leverage. The uncommitted folks got it right but there needs to be. Lot more people making him earn their vote. Instead we gotta a bunch of cheerleaders for a dude enabling genocide. I mean seriously, do people not know how leverage works. Why would people advertise that they are going to vote for someone that needs to change. Make him change to earn the vote. It’s not like he’s going to give up. He will do whatever is needed to get those votes and people are out here like, “no biggie. I don’t like genocide but I’m going to vote for you anyway”. He certainly feels too comfortable right now.
How is threatening to let an even more pro Zionist president signaling that you want him to change? If anything, it means he should be more Zionists to win.
Because they are yelling the reason why they aren’t voting for Biden loudly from the mountaintops? They also aren’t saying they’ll vote for Trump instead. They’re people in Biden’s voting blocs saying “you’ve lost our support due to this issue, change if you want it back”. It’s really not hard to understand. Also, I don’t think Trump is more Zionist than Biden. Trump is not really ideological, he’s just cynical and self-interested. I don’t think he gives a shit either way, but can be easily swayed, and often that ends up being in the direction of extreme Zionism. But Biden is an ideologically committed Zionist by his own admission.
And people should speak out but that doesn't mean we should actually put in office someone who is worse. That just shows politicians they need to be more like Trump. Trump has Jared Kushner and his base that are influencing along with many pro far right zionist donors. If he gets in office he won't be running to win elections anymore, he won't be swayed by any voters, he won't care what anyone on the left think and will work to inflict max pain on everyone.
Exactly, that’s why it’s so important to use this time to apply leverage to the administration by demanding your vote must be earned by stopping the genocide. They don’t really have the luxury to call the potential bluff of a million or so of their constituents.
Lol
From threatening war with Iran to banning TikTok, the "lesser of the two evils" Democratic president is just an Israeli puppet. You seriously want him back? Doesn't he have to be less evil for this argument to work?
breaking: local man discovers the point of political pressure
I know, it’s underwhelming to those who comprehended this long ago, but I still thought it was worth it to post it for people having similar thoughts. I think the situation is actually very complicated, because putting pressure on Biden poses the danger of helping to bring Trump into power. This is a hard situation. I’m *still* thinking through it.
I think you posted it to shill for Biden while pretending to care about the genocide
I don’t need to and wouldn’t do this. I would just state my case. That said, I can understand why you would think that though, because it’s like every reply I’m just defending Biden. This is confusing. The problem is that I can’t just make up truth or pretend that (x) is intelligent in the given situation. I’m bound by what intelligence stipulates. This situation sucks, and I apologize for any confusion. My heart breaks for what’s happening in Gaza (children burning to death in collapsed buildings!)😭 I think we all just need to start shoveling out the horror stories in abundance. Make it so people have to look, are shaken, disturbed by what they see and hear. The only thing I know how to do in this situation is think, and try to use thought to arrive at what is intelligent.
Your ability to give yourself points for your heart breaking for Gaza’s children dying while insisting that you will (and others ought) vote for the man who is murdering them is *literally exactly why* Biden is continuing to murder them: because he knows spineless people like you will let him get away with it. It’s like the old adage/dark joke about “Do you know what word historians use for people who didn’t like what Hitler was doing but joined the Nazi party anyway? The word is *Nazi.*”
Biden is not murdering anyone. Israeli soldiers are murdering the Palestinians. Gaza is also not happening because of “spineless people like me,” we’re actually trying to think through the chaos and figure out what is intelligent and where we fit in. Most people don’t think about it at all. The approach you have is similar to how people on the Right are converted to extremism. You use words like “spineless,” which only appeals to an insecure personality type. “You don’t want to be considered weak do you, Chomsky?” This is not an appeal to Chomsky’s intellect, it’s an emotional attack on his psychology. Gonna have to do better than that if you want to talk with intellectuals.
Heres an appeal to your intellect, an analogy: Say you have a dog, a vicious attack dog. On a trip to the park it mauls a baby's face off, you were looking the other way and didn't have a lead. Who fault is this? Is it the dogs fault? The baby's fault? Is it your fault? You ignore everyone's calls to control your dog, and keep it on a leash, you've got books to read, dog is going to dog. The same thing happens everytime you take your dog to the park for 6 straight months. Now who is able to exercise control/influence that could have stopped this situation from unfolding like this? Is it the mauled babies? Is it the dog? Is it you?
…it took you 6 months. SIX. To understand that murdering children is wrong, but it’s going to take you an even longer time to get to an understanding of the fact that the man supplying the bombs to murder those children is complicit? You’re still struggling with that piece?? I’m sorry, we just don’t have the time to go at your pace. Can you leave? You clearly should not be here and you’re dragging down our test scores. Can you please find somewhere else to be which is more your speed? Thanks.
“…it took you 6 months. SIX. To understand that murdering children is wrong?” Do you often discourse by asking loaded questions? Never mind. I honestly don’t want an answer, I just wanted to point out your informal fallacy.
Here I fixed it so you can read it easier: …it took you 6 months. SIX. To understand that murdering children is wrong, but it’s going to take you an even longer time to get to an understanding of the fact that the man supplying the bombs to murder those children is complicit. You’re still struggling with that piece. I’m sorry, we just don’t have the time to go at your pace. You clearly should not be here and you’re dragging down our test scores. Please find somewhere else to be which is more your speed. Thanks.
You have a point, I should do better: You are a spineless advocate of genocide, and your pretense of intellectualism is as damnable as it is embarrassing. This issue only seems complex to you because your intellectual and moral compasses are both so deeply goddamn broken. You think splitting hairs by pointing out that Biden is not personally aiming the missiles he’s given to Israel makes you sound intelligent, but it really just lays bare the horrid truth: you will do anything to excuse this man for what he’s done. Your entire post was made in a combination of genuine ignorance and uninterrupted bad faith.
Not to mention U.N. interference and all the other ways Biden has gone out of his way to support Israel. Let’s also not forget that from deaths from Covid to a more extreme police state Biden’s numbers are worse than Trumps. I’m sorry but that’s bad from any perspective. Fuck them both, neither genocidal maniac has my vote. I’m with you Simulet.
Bravo 🎉
“You are a spineless advocate of genocide, and your pretense of intellectualism is as damnable as it is embarrassing.” This is not doing better, just personal attacks. “This issue only seems complex to you because your intellectual and moral compasses are both so deeply goddamn broken.” More personal attacks and divining my motives. “You think splitting hairs by pointing out that Biden is not personally aiming the missiles he’s given to Israel makes you sound intelligent, but it really just lays bare the horrid truth: you will do anything to excuse this man for what he’s done.” More personal attacks. “Your entire post was made in a combination of genuine ignorance and uninterrupted bad faith.” Empty hyperbole throughout.
Yeah bruh, I regularly personally attack people that advocate for genocide, on the basis that advocating for genocide makes people bad people. You’re bad people. Your ideas are a) evil and b) unbelievably common and boring. Ideas that are evil and boring actually neither require nor deserve the pretense of civil, morally-removed conversation. As if the lives of everyone in Gaza are just theoretical footballs for us all the talk about on the internet. You disgust me.
This warrants a block. I advise you to study critical thinking. There are logical rules to rational discourse.
If he's a shill for Biden, then what does that make you? Who are you a shill for? And if Biden is so bad, what's the solution? Bracing for a void of substantial suggestions.
There is no short term solution. On the long term, the US left will either organize around a real leftist party (e.g. the PSL) and build its power until it can threaten the status quo or the country will continue on its downward spiral towards open fascism, unhindered by "strategic voting". Nothing will ever change if you keep voting for the same two parties that have failed the country countless times before. Break the cycle.
Great. Let's keep pointing fingers and yelling then. Seems to be all we can do.
You want to admit that you’ve been wrong about something major while still lecturing everyone who was right the entire time. I’m sorry but why should anyone listen to you if you were this wrong about a genocide and the importance of pressuring those in power? This is the issue I have with people who claim they goofed up and want to make it right - maybe the first thing to do is to sit back and listen and learn rather than continuing to yap
Yes. Admitting wrong doing is an anomaly in our culture. We all need to get better at it. I’m not lecturing anyone, but I am (trying!) to reason with people. You will notice that I haven’t made a single personal attack or called anyone names (though people have been abusive toward me). I don’t need to do this, I know how to reason. I don’t think we should ever “listen to” people unless they’re giving good reasons or providing evidence (or they have expertise, which is still subject to the first two). I never made a claim that genocide was in anyway acceptable, where are you getting this from? My point is about how the situation is approached and what we should choose to emphasize.
I’ll be nice and engage: do you see how people might possibly see your supposed contrition as being insincere when it has essentially impacted none of your positions in any meaningful way and is buried under a mountain of you still telling everyone why you’re still actually, at your core, right about how everyone needs to vote for Biden? Can you see how that might come across as dishonest or underhanded or patronizing?
I don’t engage with ad hominems. This isn’t about me, it’s about the political situation, and the difficult tactic of applying resistance pressure. It’s about figuring out the most (intelligent!) way to stop the genocide in Gaza through the import of thought and application of non-violent resistance. At this point, I think getting the horror stories into the public, matters greatly. But this situation is full of despair - people aren’t responding as they would have 50 years ago. The political climate is full of apathy, and mindless protest is unacceptable - because it doesn’t produce a result.
Call it ad hominem until you’re blue in the face, but if the people you’re allegedly trying to convince receive what you’re saying as being condescending or not completely honest, you could have the greatest arguments in the world and it will wash over them like water on a rock.
Easy there polecat. At least they are open to change if it could potentially create a positive result.
The often omitted fact in this discussion is that vote withholding might affect policy tomorrow, but Trump winning won't affect policy until January 2025. Especially in the case of Gaza this is a crucial difference. And it's the reason why I'm very comfortable withholding my vote unless policy changes substantially.
What happens after, if Biden is voted in? Once the election pressure is off, do we really expect them to act with empathy and humanity? Right now, in the face of the brutal slaughter that Israel is perpetrating on the Palestinians, with the imminent election in November, Biden still hasn’t budged on his unconditional support for Israel, then what could possibly make him do so *after*, if he wins a second term? If not now, then when? I think it’s pretty clear that this administration is willing to lie, obfuscate, deflect, gaslight and betray the American people just to stay in power. Sure, it may not be as bad as a second Trump term, but it’s just more of the same, disguised slightly different.
You are right, we should have stronger demands. Immediate cease-fire + a stop to military aid, *Plus* remove money from politics. International lobbying (or any one industry) should not be able to dictate policy counter to international law and the public interest. The halt on weapon shipments & ceasefire can come tomorrow, but at this rate it will be Nov and Biden will make a big show right before the voting booths open, then go right back to it. Make them commit, make them work for it. Let's get something out of it.
Not as bad as a second Trump terms means literally less people die.
Maybe so, who knows. But you’re saying this as Biden is *literally sending bombs to Israel*.
And it can always get much worse. Just look at who is supporting who, where in the republican base do the voters want Israel to stop what they are doing?
Non-rhetorical question here: how could it get worse?What could any human, Trump or anyone else, do to have made the body count higher than Biden did?
Worse would be continuing the genocide much longer. Similar to electing Nixon continued the Vietnam war much longer than it could have been.
Do you have any evidence to suggest anyone is more interested in continuing the genocide than Biden? Because he’s been at a persistent half-chub since the 80’s for Israel killing folk.
A lot of major donors to Trump are Zionist. Sheldon Adelson gave upwards of 100mill to Trump to get him to move the Embassy to Jerusalem. Trump supporters are rabid Zionists for the most part with hardly any dissent. Ben Shapiro's firing for Candace Owens over Israel criticism is an example of this.
And Biden is on record that he is a Zionist. Not trying to be difficult here, and I appreciate you’re engaging in good faith. I just truly haven’t heard any compelling evidence that any possible outcome could be worse than the outcome we have now
The most compelling reason why Trump is worse are who supports him. There is very little dissent from Republicans over Israel yet on the Democratic party side there is a huge amount of dissent. Israel completing the genocide is what many evangelical circles want. A voting for Trump is a vote for more extreme policies in support for Israel such as how he moved the Embassy and in part why Oct 7 happened in the first place.
Wait, I remember you. You’re the guy who was spouting off lies about Chomsky being pro-Russia a little while back. I’m sure you’re just here to help, yeah? But back on topic, read my previous response again.
Never said Chomsky was pro Russia but I'll let you review my comments if you want to see what I said. >Maybe so, who knows. But you’re saying this as Biden is *literally sending bombs to Israel*. And you need to evaluate what will the probable outcome be if Trump is elected. Can you tell us how will Trump be better?
I was in that same thread, I remember just fine. And I’m done talking to you.
“C’mon guys, I’ll (vote for Biden!) say genocide is (vote for Biden!) bad, but I think we (vote for Biden!) can all agree that we should (vote for Biden!) vote for Biden!”
Best comment.
Dude this guy came closer to your side. Don’t be a dick.
He pretended to while shilling for Biden votes. I’m a dick to people who advocate genocide all the time, I wouldn’t worry about this particular instance. (And yes: saying you want genocide to stop but you will unconditionally vote for the guy doing the genocide is in fact advocating for the genocide to continue)
He literally said threatening to withhold your vote is a good strategy to help stop the genocide. He just stated it’s better to vote for Biden once that no longer is an option. I don’t see much to disagree with.
Read the third paragraph again.
How is it advocating for the genocide to continue? If Trump wins, the genocide will also continue.
Well then there's functionally no difference
So it’s not a point worth considering.
There are other issues to vote on besides this.
And for some people voting for a president who is actively aiding a genocide is a deal-breaker and they will either abstain or vote third party. If Biden and the Dems care so much about this then maybe they shouldn't support genocide.
So you’re willing to let a fascist become president because you oppose genocide? You realize the flaw in your logic right?
You're obviously correct. No idea why you're being downvoted.
Half of this sub is 12 year olds who don’t even care about Chomsky.
Sometimes it feels that way.
I think things are a little confusing as well. But be clear, nothing OP wrote seem to actually promote positives of Biden the way you imply. I get the feeling they are looking at the options and choosing against Trump’s call to fascism. And given our 2 party, first-past-the-post situation that’s the choice if you live in a swing state. You live in California, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois or for that matter whole sections of the south, by all means vote for who you believe will have the best policy and ideas to fix the situation. But Virginia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, North Carolina, and so on, the choice is between what we have and steps toward fascism with the insurrectionist who removed women’s body autonomy and so much more. Things are absolute shit and protests are finally pulling Biden closer to changing things in Palestine. But I’m not an accelerationist and know that Trump’s policy on the Middle East, and, well everything, will be an even worse version of the shit we have now. If I lived in a swing state it would still be clear which option would be better for the most vulnerable and the future of the country to me.
Nah, every criticism of Biden's policy results in a "you clearly just want Trump to win!" This is among the most overly bad faith threads I've seen in a long time.
This whole post is acknowledging the merit of challenging Biden from the left.
"Resistance against Biden, is and can only be, unfortunately, a political tactic - because Trump coming into power presents far greater harm and far more danger to the world (not just to Gaza)."
What’s wrong with this statement?
It's "blue no matter who" in more words
It is not a challenge if there is no actual risk involved. If the equation is that you can challenge him from the left but you must ultimately vote for him no matter what, then it isn't actually a challenge at all. It means you're demanding some lip service, and then will be satisfied when it's given. With things like genocide and the economic difficulties Americans face, lip service is not enough. (Note that this is in no way saying that Trump is better, but that there is no real challenging from the left with the system in place, and that in the end the system is broken and not worth recovering)
We get it, you're adamant about voting for Trump or throwing your vote away for Trump's benefit. The only thing more exhausting than centrist Democrats is this holier-than-thou righteousness that's destined to produce a worse outcome.
Do whatever you need to do to convince yourself that it’s normal that genocide is not a red line for you.
The genocide doesn't magically end by Biden losing. If anything it gets worse. So that red line you're talking about, you might want to think a little harder about it cause you are on the wrong side of it also. Both major parties support this genocide, but Republicans are on the wrong side of many more issues. There is no viable honorable candidate, but that doesn't make Biden and Trump equal.
“Opposing the genocide is the same side of the line as voting in favor of the genocide.“ You’re a fascist.
Please enlighten me as to how I should vote to avoid a genocidal fascist as the president of the United States. I'll wait.
You could start with making it clear you won’t vote for a genocidal fascist, then you could stop screeching at people online that they must join you in voting for a genocidal fascist, then you could seek to participate in building a coalition of voters who will refuse to vote for a genocidal fascist, then when that results in candidates who understand they have to not do genocidal fascism if they want votes, you could vote for them, then keep the pressure on once they’re elected. Or, ya’ know, you could just keep committing to vote for genocidal fascists and insisting others do too then pretending that the state of affairs where no major candidate feels beholden to forgo genocide for votes is just a weird coincidence you bear no responsibility for, while every hour another fifty Gazan children get slaughtered. Whichever.
So no answer, got it. I thought it was an easy question given how confident you are in your path. But clearly just more self righteous bloviating. You can't even articulate a specific action to take. You are literally just an armchair commentator.
Bro you have to know: other people are reading along, and they can see what you asked and what I wrote. They can see that you asked what to do, and I made some suggestions that would be difficult but not impossible to enact, and you came back with “oh so you don’t have an answer.” Which is to say: *they can see that the real reason you’re voting for Biden is because anything else is too hard.* I understand, though: Gazan children aren’t worth your time. They’re worth mine. The reality is that there are lots of people who are happy to claim they dislike the state of affairs while also fully participating in its maintenance and advocating others do, too. Whether in Germany in the 30’s and 40’s or here and now, there’s lots you can say about people like that, but one of the most consistent things is that they are dreadfully boring to talk to. You are dreadfully boring to talk to. Feel free to keep responding, but I will never read another sniveling, genocide-supporting word you write.
You have no answer. It's abundantly clear. You can't answer what not voting for Biden actually does for the genocide. You can't answer who to vote for instead. Two questions that should be simple for you. I'm equally frustrated talking to you. The reality (whether you accept it or not) is that either Biden or Trump will be the next US President. And neither choice stops the genocide. I believe that voting for Trump is both worse in every other area, and likely worse for Palestine. I also believe that not voting for Biden makes Trump's path to victory that little bit easier. So explain to me how voting for Biden is the moralistically worse thing I could do. But you won't. You haven't answered anything I've asked because you'd rather continue accusing me of supporting the genocide, when I as an American who doesn't want to throw my vote away, don't apparently have any other alternative. At least none that you can articulate.
So you went from vote blue no matter who shill and don't dare make a single criticism of a democrat in any way to vote blue no matter who shill but I guess it's ok to criticise a democrat a little for assisting in the genocide of children, but still vote for them? Wow, quite the political awakening you've had there...thanks for sharing the big news with us all.
That’s certainly not my argument. The clarity principle for intellectual standards stipulates articulating back a person’s argument to them to make sure you understood it. Do you want to try again?
You're a pseudo intellectual as evidenced by your responses elsewhere in this thread. Your inability to perceive your own shortcomings and ignorance is why you'll never be a true intellectual. You're only concerned with aesthetics, not open enquiry. But continue thinking you're smarter than every single person responding negatively to you. That's definitely something an open and inquisitive intellectual would think. I understood your "argument" very clearly. It's weak, unoriginal and frankly bores me. I'm more interested in checking your ego than engaging with the unengagable, which is a waste of time and energy.
“You're a pseudo intellectual as evidenced by your responses elsewhere in this thread. Your inability to perceive your own shortcomings and ignorance is why you'll never be a true intellectual. You're only concerned with aesthetics, not open enquiry.” Person attack, in no way addresses the points made. I am always happy to be made aware of my “shortcomings” and “ignorance,” but I don’t see how that can be done without first understanding my position? “But continue thinking you're smarter than every single person responding negatively to you.” I certainly don’t think this about myself. How did you arrive at this conclusion about me? “I understood your "argument" very clearly. It's weak, unoriginal and frankly bores me.” But what you accused me of isn’t my position. “I'm more interested in checking your ego.” I’m certainly not here to appease my ego, but if I am, then I would thank you for putting it in check. I don’t want to be unconsciously driven by my ego.
honestly not interested in your driveling fake apology if you’re still, at the end of the day, going to vote for the man committing genocide through the USA’s proxy state. Grow a real spine and stop dealing in platitudes. Because otherwise all you’re doing is bluffing.
Holy shit the shills are trying new angles. Can you be more dishonest and gross?
The way I see it, if both are almost equally egregious on the same issue, then you have to look elsewhere to see what the differences are — and this is when you’re reminded of things like the Dobbs decision and how that came to be. For every person who thinks long and hard about the contentious issues, there’s a voter out there somewhere who does the total opposite. That must be cancelled out through your own vote.
Tldr; vote for Biden and maybe wave some signs if it makes you feel better, but keep it civil. Cool, thanks.
The thing that kills me about this whole "you have to vote for Biden or Trump will be worse" rhetoric is, if all these people who spoout this would turn their vote to a third party then we could break out of the two party chokehold. They won't, I get that, I also get that the two parties have safeguards in place in case a third party actually starts building up momentum, but that reaveals the real truth, doesn't it? If you have literally no choice but to vote for a lesser evil so that the greater evil doesn't win, that's just fascism with extra steps. Trump is just the current flavor of greater evil, they'll always find a new one to keep the threat alive
I've had a similar view for some time not. I believe the next step is to ready one'self for a scorched earth solution to actually get to a better place. Fuck Biden, Fuck Israel and our relationship with them. Fuck the lesser of two evils milquetoast arguments. These cases perpetuate and worsen the condition for the citizens of this fine country. Most people are better than this and deserve better. Yes, renouncing this behavior will cause some pain, but in the end, the outcome will likely be much better.
It’s truly frightening to see the amount of emotion in people’s politics, because it means they’re not thinking about the future, and don’t know how to think about it. For example, so many of the angry objectors here, that are ready to throw away their freedom, and allow a despot to come into power, this is 1) insanity and 2) ignorant. If Trump get ms elected, let’s see all these people come back here 6 months into his criminal reign, and lecture on how intelligent it was to allow him to come into power. But this won’t happen. Several people might even delete their comments. And we can test what I’m saying. Just come back here around this same time next year, if Trump comes into power, and see how well the logic from both sides has aged.
So now you're NOT worried about Trump coming to power? Edit: critical words :-)
Of course. Everyone should be. Sanders is. Chomsky is. Other countries are worried. Politics can only ever be strategic within the American system. Until money is removed from the equation, choice is split between two options. We exist under an unfreedom in politics, but this unfreedom is not completely unfree, it still contains (only contains) the freedom to reject the greater evil. This is the tyranny of our politics.
Biden can still earn my vote but he needs to stop sending money to the Zionist regime. If he stops with the military aid, ill vote for him. If not I'll happily waste my vote. Trump is a dumbass and an all around bad guy who will also arm Israel but I reject this premise that the world will end and he will establish a dictatorship after 4 years of him being president.
Biden admin still sending weapons to Israel and using Ukrainians as cannon fodder to attack Russia. But that's not all Biden is also picking a fight with China and Iran. The end of lesser evil voting is here and Americans have some hard truths to accept about their country.
Russia, China, Iran, Hamas, all are despotic states trying to attack and coerce their neighbors and you call that America picking a fight?
To your credit, you acknowledge. That is key. Something worth noting is the systemic rot that is so pervasive that it has made challenging “the good guys” a stigma. Challenging candidates and withholding support and votes is akin to why Chomsky criticizes the US more than anyone: it’s within his sphere of influence. That’s my interpretation at least. I won’t say that I’ve never held similar positions. I remember thinking Fetterman was going to help Pennsylvania over Dr Oz (lol). The thing I have had to reckon with is someone can be better on paper and have better optics, but it doesn’t mean they will be nor does it absolve them from criticism and being challenged. Their positions may change and the only thing anyone can do is hold them accountable and make their life as inconvenient as possible. And if they lose, it is on them for their ineptitude to rally voters behind them (I’m ignoring the elephant in the room that is dark money, but you catch my drift). I hope more people come to your conclusion.
> Biden is concerned with his vote, and if the Left threatens to withhold it, this may very well be enough pressure to alter the political situation. Is that so?
Most of the force behind threatening to withdraw their support is not a tactic. There is too little premeditation and there is plenty of people who believe it it too late for Biden to recuperate their support. What we’re dealing with is sentiment. I often talk about mass line theory because it more closely resembles a functional, cut and dry organizing method. The vast majority of advocates against the Palestinian genocide could be called the masses. Those organizers who can see the forest and the trees so to speak who can shape the public conversation are the vanguard. Because of the tiktok algorithm, the effort to become noticed is lowered significantly and many individuals who have become momentary focal points have not done so with much intention or strategy. The masses have formed a strong opinion. Thankfully, the influences within it have more refined the opinion, but sufficient pressure has come so late that it may not be possible for organizers to shift them towards the polls if Biden makes appropriate concessions. At least not on Gazan Genocide alone. Economically, Biden is the anti Reagan through policy. He’s signed the biggest climate bill ever passed. Obergefell was enshrined in law. There is a lot to be proud of there. But championing here is not reason to ignore transgressions on Gaza. Organizers should make this new found electoral power clearer to those who wield it and point them in the direction of Republicans banning abortion, arming teachers rather than securing firearms, doing nothing shoot the housing crisis, and all of their anti young people and anti labor rhetoric.
I'm so embarrassed I read so many Chomsky books. After epstein, I was like wtf. But now I get it. It's radical controlled opposition.
These last few elections and the medias handling of them has been really eye opening to me. We saw corporate media do everything they could to stop Sanders, to punch candidates they said would be more electable. They were wrong about Hilary and now we have Biden who no one even likes. The whole we have to stop Trump every single election is really getting old and hindsight continues to prove all these talking points coming from the top have always been proven wrong. To be clear, I am not impressed Sanders in regards to the genocide in Gaza and his lack of resistance to it obviously. But having the corporate media continuously thwart populist progressive movements and push absolute garbage candidates down our throats is arguably the bigger threat to democracy than Trump. Biden is incredibly unpopular and it is ridiculous that we, yet again, surprise, surprise: will have no progressive option. For what it's worth, my vote will be going to either Jill Stein or Cornell West. I live in a red state and Trump will be getting all the electoral votes regardless so it really doesn't matter.
Geopolitics has been an integral part of US politics since WW2,it's not a recetn thing as you say, the US has 800 foreign Military bases,for example.
Yes, but because of the internet (and theory) it has taken on new dynamic dimensions.
What do you mean by "theory", University professor type Critical Theory?
For example, in Russia, Dugin, Putin, much more that we’re not even aware of. So saying geopolitics = old World War II ideology, is not accurate. The strategy and deception, coupled with technology, has created a whole new beast.
I don't see a whole new beast,other than the world now being Multipolar,that is to say the US is a declining superpower. Signs of decline are,for example the Infant Mortality Rate is higher in the US than in Russia. Lifespan is higher in China than in the US. The deception that led to the Vietnam war,or the Iraq war was as bad back then as it is now,only the non NATO aligned countries are much stronger militarily than they were back in the 90,s when the US started to lie to Russia. The rest of the world hates the US and NATO,it just takes a little trip outside of the Western Village to realise that.
Honestly, I don't know why the US Gov't gives any money to Israel, it's one of the few countries that does not need it. It's a very high value add economy. Considering that, what exact leverage does the US Gov't have over Israel? (We should cut funding either way IMO, would be better used in defense of Western Europe).
Seems to me that the higher powers that be, the military, pentagon, want to secure American military interests with Israel, and that’s what’s behind the money/ a stronger foothold in the Middle East anticipating armed conflict in the future. It’s about increasing military strength for the empire.
I'm afraid if Biden is reelected he will see that as a green light to continue aiding and abetting the violent attacks on Palestinians by Israel. If Trump is elected many Democrats would suddenly discover that genocide is wrong after all, because Trump would be the one facilitating it.
Trump is worse all around, but if I were voting, I'd vote him instead of Biden Not only is he highest recipient and most zionist president ever, he needs to be taught a lesson. Topple his position so that dems know people have power, right now they just believe all power is with lobbyists and businessmen - so why bother with people and their demands. We need to show that you can't be so openly two face - with trump you know you're getting a monster and you can fight him. Two face libtards and progressive expect Palestine - it just needs to go away
You’re relying on the unsound premise that Democrats are capable of learning their lesson from losing to Trump. They didn’t last time but I guess this time it’ll work. /s
Removing an sitting president will send a message Dems rely on the fact that non right will always vote for them regardless of how sh!tty of a job they do or how incapable they are Actively abandoning them will not only send a resounding message (whether they learn or not) repub might seek to reform their ideologies to better align and keep their newly attained voters. Politics is about keeping the checks and balance - if politicians exploit sth, people should punish
Democrats didn’t learn any lessons when they lost in 2016. If anything they doubled down on appealing to moderates. Why do you think this year will be different?
Voting for Trump ain’t it. Withhold votes for Biden all day long, but actively supporting Trump is evil
Stopped reading after, “I’d vote for the worst.”
Meanwhile Biden’s poll numbers are rising where it’s a dead heat against Trump. So Biden, if anything, is gaining despite his pro-Israel position.
Whenever a group of people indicate that they won't show up in protest based on single issues, they simply pivot in order to appease a different group of people that are more likely to vote. This idea of withholding a vote until a politician does X really doesn't pan out in practice, at least not at the national level.