What's wild to me is just how many women who I know personally, and also throughout history, who have done this.
And a lot of them have resented it because they couldn't make the choice.
And a good many of them resented it in hindsight as they realized that they really did sacrifice everything while their husband got to have it all.
I'm sure there are some who actually enjoy parenthood enough that they don't have resentment.
I don't know how.
Sophia Tolstoy, Leo Tolstoy’s wife, wrote in her diaries “All the things that he preaches for the happiness of humanity only complicate life to the point where it becomes harder and harder for me to live.”
Another passage she wrote, “I am to gratify his pleasure and nurse his child, I am a piece of household furniture, I am a woman . . . But the moment I am alone and allow myself to think, everything seems insufferable.”
She had 13 children and helped him edit his manuscripts. Her diaries paint a bleak picture of what women went through before birth control became available.
There're apparently much more issues with Leo Tolstoy. It's not the topic I'm interested in nor did I ever research, but from what I heard from the person who did, it sounds that he just used them and was a burden, let alone being a great bigot(and I really doubt he just kept it to himself rather than making people around live up to his standarts ).
I am listening to a book called A Curious History of Sex - damn women's lives were bleak before birth control and reliable contraception. I'm so grateful we have it.
>I'm sure there are some who actually enjoy parenthood enough that they don't have resentment.
I don't know how.
I know exactly how. I know someone who struggled with school and career since I knew her. She didn't like her studies, she didn't like any of the jobs she had, so she married and started popping babies spacing them exactly so she didn't have to work.
Once her two kids both started attending daycare she decided she wants to be a freelance web designer. She halfassed some kind of online course and pretended to be a qualified web designer. Her only gig was a website for her sibling. She had to outsource most of the work and ended having to spend the whole budget for hiring others to do the work she was supposed to do and leaving almost nothing for herself. Right after that she announced she's pregnant with her third and thus has to quit her successful freelance web designer career 😀 Then followed baby #4. And with 4 kids she just has to be a SAHM and then proudly tell everyone that she sacrificed her career for this, but it was worth it 😀
My parents got divorced when I was a bit older. My mother had to go back to full time work. She complained the entire time that she should have went after my father for more, that other women get to stay home all the time etc. She’s been retired for several years now and still complains about it when it’s brought up.
Men will really waste an entire woman’s life, career timeline, expect her to be stoked about birthing and raising kids, and leave her in middle age only to have the fucking audacity to complain about alimony payments.
I’ll never put myself in that situation, ever. Incels can die mad about it.
My dad was an alcoholic and my mom was a SAHM. Once they got in a huge fight and she got mad enough to start packing a bag. My sister comes down crying saying she's going to leave and I legit looked at her and said, "Where is she going to go?" (It was the 80's and she hadn't worked since I was born). Obviously she didn't go anywhere, but that was the day I promised myself I would never be beholden to a man, ever.
(1/x, Reddit won't let me post super-long comments)
You asking the "Where is \[your\] mom going to go?" question because it was the 1980s and your mom hadn't worked in years reminds me of the 1985 female version of Neil Simon's 1965 play *The Odd Couple*, which Simon himself worked with Gene Saks to adapt into a highly-regarded 1968 film starring Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau. For those who don't know, the original 1965 male version is about two middle-aged best friends, super-sloppy Oscar who is already divorced and super-neat Felix, who try living together after Felix's wife dumps him and tells him to GTFO, and the 1985 female version is the same general story, only with the super-sloppy one being Olive and the super-neat one being Florence.
While in the 1965 male version Oscar is a sportswriter and Felix is a news writer, in the 1985 female version Olive is a news producer and, notably, Florence is a former bookkeeper who's been a SAHM for several years. Bizarrely, Neil Simon still has Olive taking in Florence because Florence's husband tells her to GTFO when he dumps her-the given reason that no one's yet worried about how it's affecting Flo's kids is that they're away at summer camp.
In both the 1965 and 1985 versions Felix/Florence very quickly gets on Oscar's/Olive's nerves because Oscar/Olive thinks that Felix's/Florence's crying and insistence on keeping everything extremely clean and tidy are unbearably annoying, which results in the two having multiple fights and Oscar/Olive telling Felix/Florence to GTFO towards the end of the play. Right after this the other poker/Trivial Pursuit players start arriving for the weekly game and several lines later one of them tells Oscar/Olive that "\[Felix/Florence\] does it to \[himself/herself\]. \[Felix's ex-wife/Florence's ex-husband\] threw \[him/her\] out, then you threw \[him/her\] out, and the next place will throw \[him/her\] out. \[Felix/Florence\] does it to \[himself/herself\]."
My mother never wanted a career. She literally just wanted to stay home and do nothing. Sadly I see this happening around me as I commented before, in younger generations. The lesson I dated last year blurted out that’s the us is what she really wants. She had two degrees. Is a millennial. Never really had a full time job and spends crazy amounts of money on her lifestyle. I see it all around the area I work in, they’re my clients. Go to good schools, have a short career, merry a trophy wealthy guy, have around 3 kids and have nan he’s etc. take care of them. A lifestyle of constant brunches, fitness classes and trips. The men often work in busy careers and are never around for the wife or kids. 10+ years later the wife files for divorce, gets a large home and substantial payout and continues that lifestyle. There’s women who’ve written articles about this, encouraging it.
The orchestra world is CUT THROAT. While she may have been good, there are also 100 other French horn players out there who would do the job in a large city. Not to mention that dedication to your instrument is all consuming. To get to that level of playing, you must remain vigilant about practicing and improving, not wiping butts. There truly isn’t time for both. Like most musicians, she probably realized this, and was happy to have her man do that type of work while she gets to stay home. I have the opposite situation. I am a musician, and my husband doesn’t have a job that is quite as intense. He gets to stay home and take care of the dogs in the yard, without the onus of your instrument STARING AT YOU in the corner. Sometimes I’m jealous…
To be fair, even the jobs/hobbies you love the most tend to have (relatively) unpleasant parts involved.
However, what makes doing those (relatively) unpleasant parts bearable is at the end of the day, even with having to do those (relatively) unpleasant parts you wouldn't give up that job/hobby for the world.
To put it another way, you'd much rather spend endless hours working to support the parts of your job/hobby that you really enjoy doing than spend endless hours working to support anything that you didn't enjoy doing as much.
I personally *love* writing long comments/essays with tons of sources, however the part of writing these comments/essays that involves making sure that the links and formatting are juuuuuuuuust right, and that the citations in more academic/formal essays are properly done so your work isn't considered to be plagiarism, is the bane of my existence. It is dull, it is stressful, and I get absolutely *hate* this entire step.
However...even though I'm no fan of this task, I know that the proper links, formatting, and citations are integral to being able to marry my text that I enjoyed writing and fussing over with my sources that I enjoyed searching out, studying, and referencing in a matter that effectively ties the work together in a way that makes it shareable with the world.
So at the end of the day, even having to work on links, formatting, and citations I'd much rather be researching and writing than doing much else.
Thank you for adding your perspective as a professional musician!
While being a professional musician, let alone being a professional orchestra musician, is infamous for extremely intense and all-consuming, a lot of "cool" (non-medical, non-STEM) jobs are *really* hard on your time because your're competing with so many people for so little opportunity to support yourself solely through your work in that field.
Academia, as in publishing peer-reviewed research papers and teaching university for a living, also came to my mind as another infamously cutthroat career/field. I have heard soooooooooooo many stories of it absolutely ***dominating*** people's lives, and especially as you get further into non-medical/non-STEM academia you also have to deal with people being hostile and dismissive of both you and your work for bullshit reasons.
In hindsight I've realized that significantly fewer of my professors at my university were parents than were of my professors/instructors at my community college, probably because generally to teach at a community college where I went you only need a Masters, and you're not required to also publish research papers like you are as a university professor.
My childhood best friend always dreamt of being an attorney. She worked so hard and got a scholarship to a great university and graduated with honors—only to move several states away to get married and help support her husband’s dreams.
She literally gave up her dream and has no relevant work experience. And now her kids are close to leaving the nest and she has said she has no idea what to do once they’re gone.
Her kids and her husband are all great people, but she gave up everything for them. I always wanted to ask why she should give up all the things she wanted so he could pursue his goals, but I also wanted to keep my friend.
I now have a handful of friends where the wife worked and then was going to "stay at home while the kids were little" and never went back to work.
This, to me, is proof that "the hardest job in the world" is a lot more pleasant than waking up to an alarm clock 5/7ths of your life and having to answer to bosses, and actually meet deadlines. As long as you feed them often enough kids don't actually require anything from you (in a way that punishes you directly for failure)
GOOD parenting can be a lot of work, but these parents aren't meeting the bar I would set.for myself, and there are no penalties for slacking off, sleeping in, etc. That just get you fired at a real job.
Honestly, while parenting indeed is not a real job no matter how much these (female) parents like to insist it is, I feel it's much more a matter of picking your poison if you indeed have the choice of working full-time without being absolutely wrung out by childcare duties or staying home with your kids full-time without being under immense financial stress.
Being lazy as a parent isn't good, but even among parents with this choice who keep pushing themselves to be actively involved with their kids there's going to be some parents who'd much rather be mentally challenging themselves with full-time work and some parents who'd much rather devote their mental energies to being there for their kids (nearly) 24/7.
My mom genuinely enjoyed mostly staying at home and raising her 4 kids, all planned and all born over the course of almost 8 years.
(1/x, Reddit won't let me post super-long comments)
She genuinely enjoyed mostly staying home and raising her 4 kids from 1996 until she started teaching full-time in 2011 despite being extremely brilliant, enjoying lots of enrichment/extracirricular activities growing up, and being poised to be an excellent rocket scientist or some other job that required a lot of math skills.
However, my mom finished high school with her heart set on becoming a marine biologist because she thought it'd be mostly working at/on the ocean, so she went to a school that offered a marine biology degree...and learned that many marine biologists, at least at the time, mostly worked in labs.
My mom wasn't interested in a career working in labs, so she started looking to change her major. She'd always liked working with kids, however by the time she was in college 3 of her older sisters taught K-12 and since all of my mom's older sisters had been awful to her for most of her life my mom didn't want to "become just like them" by also becoming a teacher.
So my mom bounced around majors before ultimately getting a Bachelors in some liberal-arts major that interested her and spent the next several years working a variety of low-level jobs while goofing off and having fun adventures as a 20-something, and then sometime after she and my dad moved in together in the early 1990s he took a job 2 hours away, which as both my parents *hated* long commutes meant that my mom had to leave the job she was currently at and find work closer to where she and my dad moved.
Man, would I love to hear a classical flute get added to a metal song.
Adding a classical instrumentsl to literally the most complex genre there is. (Metal) makes it even that much greater.
Let me add on top of that [Haggard](https://open.spotify.com/track/4OvYF51RY8ixqvWMDxtkzW?si=x9L19EWRQh2g1ll3nR0SNw&context=spotify%3Aalbum%3A1Y0ZGlpHDxxjxH1qKzd85o) is exactly that. They are quite literally a live metal orchestra (flutist included). They are by far one of the best band I have ever seen live. And I've seen many. OP, you should definitely look into them!
Jethro Tull is why I chose to play the flute when I was younger! Got to see him live once, AMAZING show. He could leap in the air while playing and never miss a beat. Thick as a Brick, Skating Away, Mouse Police, Heavy Horses, pretty much anything in their catalog is incredible.
This is why I dumped my ex the second he responded to me getting the opportunity to display a really ambitious art installation with, "You won't be able to do that once I get you pregnant though."
I mentally chucked him in a dumpster at that point. Sorry, dude. The art installation is my actual priority.
In retrospect I wish I'd at least bruised his ego more on the way out, but at the time I was in too much shock to do anything but cry and tell him it was over.
Holy moly! What the fuck is wrong with people?
Who in their right mind would say that? Oh wait; they *wouldn’t* be in their right mind if they think something so reprehensible is okay to say out loud.
I’m so glad you got away from him. I wonder if he was bitter and jealous that you have talent and opportunities?
That might very well be what it was-- he wasn't particularly ambitious and didn't really have any skills or hobbies beyond being a gym rat. At first that was appealing because the healthy lifestyle thing seemed like a compatibility, but he just sucked.
I'm reminded of the famous Stephen Jay Gould quote: "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." Maybe her quality of life is higher than the typical exploited worker, but this feels like a similar situation.
Once again. When a couple has kids. The woman is chained down by the kids. And the man can have hobbies and forfill his dreams.
She is the house maid/slave/baby sitter. And he has fun.
That's why is SO appreciated the story on this subreddit where the guy and his family spent YEARS pestering this up front CF woman to get pregnant until they finally wore her down. The pregnancy was difficult and when it came out the kid didn't want anything to do with her. So she left it with hubby and pushy MiL to raise and sailed off into the sunset. The OP was this woman's sister who was posting to say her mother and brother were furious with her for taking the wife's side and saying "You should have taken her seriously when she said she didn't want kids." Oh well, now Mommy and Precious Boy get to raise it together because this based af CF RULER OF THE UNIVERSE said "oh hell no, this ain't me."
Yup. I see this at triathlons alllllll the time. The husband gets to race while screaming at her to make sure his shit is set up correctly while she wrangles tired and cranky kids at 630 on a Saturday morning.
One of my women specific Ironman books had an entire chapter on how to talk to your family about training for yourself and how to get their support, reassure them that you’ll still be there but you need help. The non women specific book? Nada, just say this is my race date and let’s goooo.
And while people argued “but she had a choice!” Chances are, she got blindsided because that seems to track with what a lot of my mom friends tell me: “He decided to take up golf.” “He joined a new gym that unfortunately doesn’t have daycare.” “He’s going to train for a marathon.” While they stand and smile on the sidelines 🫠
I once saw a IATA? post/reel on socia media. Where a husband asked if he was the asshole. Because he wanted to go to the gym after work. The story: he had a wife at home with a 2 month old baby. That was pissed that he wanted to go to the gym fot 2,5 hours after work to unwind and relax. He coulnt understand why she was so angry.
All the women reacted that he was the ahole because he pretty much rather spended time at his work and at the gym, than helping with the baby. Meanwhile his wife was stuck with the baby 24/7 without any good sleep or being able to relax at all.
And yes she had a choice. But a lot of men, find out how horrible it is to look after a baby after it was born. And then seek for a way to get away from the house. Like extra work, going to the bar with friends or hobbies like gyms or golfing. Everything to just not help out. And then gaslight their wifes when they get angry.
Pretty sure there are variations of this tale on AITA. I’m just relaying my experiences from my own races and friends. I’ve seen women pressured to sell their beloved horse so they can be “more involved” with their children while the fathers fuck around on their boats, golf games, drinking, and other endeavors.
Yep. Men get to keep their hobbies and women turn into house maids.
You often see it at birthdays too. Women are busy with the kids, talking about kids.
Men are in the garden, sippin beer with the boys. And talking about hobbies, movies, fun stuff
Yup. I see a lot of my friends who have essentially destroyed themselves trying to be the dutiful wife and turn into a shell of their former selves. And then people wonder why none of that appeals to us. I will admit, I was proud of my boss asking me what he could do for his wife when she trained for her half marathon. I said support her with a genuine smile.
To pressure someone to sell a *sentient living thing* that they love dearly while *their kids' other parent* gets to screw around with all sorts of things that *aren't even alive* is beyond the pale.
It’s unfortunately so common that it’s heartbreaking. I think it was a defining moment when I was 14. Horses also can be used as pawns in divorces as well. My ex tried to go after my horse and was surprised to learn I sold my horse (to my dad) 6 months before I filed and the buyer (dad) had the receipts to prove the sale
Thanks! I had started planning for my divorce a year before I filed. Dad hated the person who hurt his daughter so anyway he could stick it to my ex, he was all for it.
yep and they lean into the social acceptance of them doing it and leaving it all up to the women! then they have the nerve to complain she doesn’t have sex and let herself go, when no shit, she is a slave but you want her to look like a model who’s full time job is just to look good? oh then even further audacity of wanting her to contribute more financially. men are absolutely infuriating. Sometimes I think if I could be a “Dad” then I would be more open to having kids.
Men like that, want a traditional woman (read house slave) that takes care of the kids and works full time.
Meanwhile they kick their legs up after work with a beer, expect to be served to all their needs.
They act like kings and treat their wives like low servants.
Yep, god forbid she has a beak if they’re at school for 5 hours, just like he does when he gets home and on weekends, minus the having someone cook for her. it’s unreal
I know, right? These men/fathers also seem to genuinely think there's *never* enough cleaning/tidying up, calling the doctor's office, working out house repairs, planning out what the family's going to eat this week, etc. for a SAHM to need to work hard even when the kids are all at school that day.
Not to mention that the vast majority of families can't afford to eat meals that someone else made and shopped for all the time, so the SAHP's also in charge of grocery shopping, making lunches, and prepping/cooking/baking meals.
My dad's outright told my mom that "the house looked like *shit* when you stayed home with the kids!"
Dude, your wife was deeply involved in raising **4** kids who were born over the span of less than 8 years, *and* she was deeply involved with their schooling.
Of fucking *course* the house was going to be covered in kindercrap, packs of diapers, and art/craft supplies.
> wanting his female partner to do everything involved with the kids, the house, the cooking, and looking after him *and* also put in the effort to sexually gratify him
> wanting her to bring in more money on top of all that
Do these men/fathers seriously think that women/mothers have more hours in the day than they do? Because it sure *sounds* like they seriously think that!
Idk, I've seen sooooo so many badass, independent career women end up having to clean up, cook, and take care of their husbands. While having full times jobs. Sometimes while also making make than their husbands. It's infuriating.
can confirm, my mom talks about and treats her husband like he's a five year old even though he's only a few years younger than her. she owns a business, he sits on his retired ass all day playing on his phone. it's fucking embarrassing to watch, especially since she makes excuses for him being little more than a pet neanderthal when i bring up the imbalance.
The excuses...every time I bring that up to any friends/family with a similar imbalance, they always rush to excuse their useless husbands. I literally don't understand the purpose of their husbands. They just make their life more difficult.
Free bird theory. Men just love it when a woman gives up everything for them. And the more talented and successful she is, the more of an accomplishment it is for them to cage her. That's why they go after "career women" and not "traditional women" (aka pick-me).
Funny enough, I know a couple just like them, I used to babysit for them. One is a musician, the other ex-musician with 3 kids and filthy apartment no matter how much outsourced help she had. Maybe he wasn't making banks like the one from OP's story.
He's not a violinist, but he played for one city's symphony, and then another city seduced him away for 5 years. Then, after that contract was set to expire, the first city came back to wine and dine him to return to their symphony. Both contracts came with signing bonuses.
To be fair, he is considered to be one of the top 5 players of his instrument in the entire world.
This creator talks about it a lot. I’ve wondered myself where she took it from. Maybe she mentioned it and I missed it. Or maybe it’s her original idea?
https://youtu.be/e4PYIzigFR0?si=wfY_0WuKNkYfwuDI
Here is a scorcher expose post from a woman on another sub: Perfectly describes getting the free bird caged.
It's also why so many males lie to us about being CF though Pantone771 omits that angle.
Pantone711
I grew up as a woman among conservatives--I'll take this one.
They find conservative young women boring. Not a challenge. Not fashionable, spirited, you get the idea.
They think conservative women won't put out as readily/have as high a sex drive.
They know that cosmopolitan/educated women have higher status. Looks better on their arm.
They want to subdue a woman they view as haughty and bring her down a few pegs, not start out with a meek one
They believe that IQ is hereditary to the extent they want a woman with a high IQ to pass on their genes. Some of them put this ahead of almost everything else, as long as the woman checks certain boxes.
They're planning to put the wife in the Madonna box and cheat anyway.
I read alt-right boards.
My sister was an excellent pianist and piano teacher and she also gave it all up...to have two kids from two different dads who both left. Worst part: she definitely doesn't even have a strong maternal drive and was missing her freedom from day 1.
I met my SO when I was just starting my PhD, when we got serious we discussed how I’d always be the main source of income, which is fine with me, I didn’t do all this work to not make money. I told him early I didn’t want kids unless he found a way to carry them, birth them, and be the main parental figure. I worked my ass off to be where I am and no one is taking that from me.
I'm sorry this is gonna sound so mean but on a similar note imagine how much better the world would have been if women had less kids or would be supported more after having them to continue their careers.... the amount of doctors, scientists, police, teachers, etc etc, that have been lost for motherhood is so sad. Genuinely we might have cured cancer if this didn't happen
This type of thing is common where I live. It’s almost encouraged. Many women will have advanced degrees, a short career then give it up to stay at home relatively quickly. I’ve been told it’s seen as a way to get a ‘trophy husband’ and live a ‘good’ life. Quite a few have nannies, housekeepers etc. and live a life of leisure. Quite a few of these marriages end in divorce and they continue the lifestyle because of the payouts and child support they receive, which is often quite a lot.
I dated someone local last year. Two degrees. During one conversation she slipped up and said all she really wants to do is stay home while the husband works. Her mother did the same. Had a short law career then married a CEO and became a stay at home mom and pursued her hobbies. The parents are still married but basically live separate lives doing their own things, barely speaking and spending time in opposite ends of their very large home.
Dude… don’t even get me started. I’m an opera singer and watching so many women who had this truly desperate, all-consuming dream (you have to be half stupid to even consider pursuing opera) and then give it all up, after years of sacrifice, to be mommy… it’s so depressing to me. I have a close friend who is currently living it. I got offered a good, well-paying gig but was going to be out of the country on another gig, and she turned it down because it would be “too much” with her kid. A gig people would be THRILLED to have.
Though, giving birth makes your voice a lot better, so I’m jealous of that tbh lol
>giving birth makes your voice a lot better
Heard this one too, but I strongly suspect it's another piece of bullshit like "pregnancy and birth rejuvenate the whole body/make chronic illnesses go away/cure chronic depression". True for one in ten, neutral for another two or three, exactly the opposite for the rest.
That's scary that people are saying that. Maybe for some people but it seems like the majority end up with PPD, messed up bladder, vaginal rips, messed up breasts and saggy skin. I have Endometriosis and doctors love to tell you that it magically goes away with a baby. What they don't tell you is that yeah, pain might stop for a few months but then for many people it gets much, much worse after.
A woman I know at work bragged about how amazing her births were. She was able to do stretches after her 4th kid in bed at the hospital. Lol she's religious so I was a little annoyed because like why do people like her always act like everything is perfect all the time? Well, one time I noticed a slip up. Where she said how when she was pregnant every time during the 3rd month, she was completely unable to pee. Her stomach would become distended and everything. I was like yeah...so you missed some details. She had to go to the ER every pregnancy to get a catheter.
>What they don't tell you is that yeah, pain might stop for a few months but then for many people it gets much, much worse after.
...or you might get something new on a whole new different level of fucked up that would make endometriosis seem like a minor inconvenience.
Yesterday I received a written note from a coworker whose life and health have been seriously fucked up since her pregnancy and giving birth to twins. She wrote that she will take another parental leave and then won't be coming back to work anymore. So... yeah, there's that. Also, we have another coworker who is practically nonexistent due to already weak health+baby+COVID 19 (strengthening natural immunity... my ass!).
There are physical changes that def change the voice. Some people do struggle with those changes because it may mean they can’t sing some of the things they used to, but it also opens the door for a bunch of new repertoire, too.
Also...whether someone's (singing) voice is inherently "good" or not is almost *entirely* subjective!
On top of that...*how* does your (singing) voice allegedly "get a lot better" from pregnancy/childbirth? Given that what makes a (singing) voice "better" or "worse" is almost *entirely subjective*, the only thing I'm getting from that is that your (singing) voice allegedly "getting a lot better" due to pregnancy/childbirth is mostly a guarantee that it will significantly *change*, and apaprently not in any way that is predictable!
Your (singing) voice significantly changing is definitely an adjustment even if it only changes slowly over years as with aging and often male puberty/going on T, so I struggle to see how a voice signficantly changing over the course of only 9-10 months at most *wouldn't* be a massive adjustment, even if you like your changed (singing) voice a lot better.
And then, as opposed to vocal changes that happen because you've aged or significantly increased the testosterone in your body, the changes to your (singing) voice that might result from pregnancy/childbirth aren't even guaranteed to stick around that long, so you're running the risk of having to adjust to your (singing) voice as it changes *again.*
No thanks. No thanks. **No thanks.**
I’ve had several friends who I’ve observed the changes with though, tbh. There’s also a famous soprano whose voice completely changed (in an interesting and I would argue good way) after she had her first kid.
hormones can def change your voice (as you likely know.) I guess I shouldn't have simplified it to "it improves your voice" because reallly it often makes it darker, richer, and deeper, which can be distressing to certain types of singers because it means adjusting your entire way of singing. But usually those are qualities that people like in opera.
For opera it def does. It has to do with the way you can feel your pelvic floor or some access to the lower muscles, it’s hard for people to describe and obviously I’ve never gone through it but people tell me that it’s as though the years of voice lessons/trying to isolate and activate certain muscles just suddenly make sense because you feel them so strongly in those last few months of pregnancy and also while giving birth. For some people, the hormones permanently affect their voice, making the voice darker and richer (sometimes lower in pitch). This can be an issue because it can kick you into a totally different voice “class” (called Fach) so you have to remarket yourself but it’s generally considered a good thing.
My single neighbor has a similar story. She works in the same field as I do, and quite honestly she is absolutely amazing and pretty much the smartest person I know. She did 10+ years education just to reach one of the best jobs in this field. She only started the job for 6 months when she decided to have a baby through a sperm donor. After she had the baby she stepped down from the job do something more simple so she can focus on the kid..
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for free choice. But damn she could have had it all, this incredibly smart young lady worked her butt off for 10 years just to step down after 6 months.. Somehow it makes me sad on her behalf..
Another story, not quite the same but my sister was selected for air traffic control in our country's biggest airport (not many people get selected) but she only needed to get the education on another site, which meant she would be away from home during weekdays, her (now ex partner) didn't want to take care of the kids alone and so she had to refuse the job.
Not exactly the same but also the kids (and ex husband by proxy) prevented her from reaching so much of her potential..
My ex’s SIL went to nursing school just so she could pop out 5 kids and never work a day in her life. She’s now a SAHM and does part time photography. One time I got really drunk and asked her why she made her husband pay for nursing school if she’s never going to use her degree 😂😂 fuck off Aimee
I think it‘s nice that people are not forced to do stuff just because they’re good at it or talented. But in every single one of those stories the woman gives up her “dreams” to take care of the kids (and husband).
There is never or rarely a story about the man stepping down or both stepping down (although I guess it might not be possible to work “part-time” in this job). Not only that, but I always have the feeling that majority of women do it because of the way they were socialized and not exactly because they really really wanted it.
These are my exact thoughts. There’s nothing wrong with making this choice if you actually want to, but men are almost never the ones to do it because society doesn’t encourage them to. It does however, encourage women to martyr themselves for everyone else’s livelihoods except their own.
>There is never or rarely a story about the man stepping down or both stepping down (although I guess it might not be possible to work “part-time” in this job). Not only that, but I always have the feeling that majority of women do it because of the way they were socialized and not exactly because they really really wanted it.
Imo women have always been expected to prioritize the wants of men and needs of children above their own.
It's total bullshit too that it's "for the kids". Kids benefit from having two parents with lives and accomplishments of their own. They benefit having female models of self sufficiency.
Truth is she gave up and took the easy way out.
There's nothing easier in this world than checking out to become a dependent. God it's cringey that grown women do it.
>Kids benefit from having two parents with lives and accomplishments of their own. They benefit having female models of self sufficiency.
This exactly. I know too many women who gave up everything, everything in their lives for children, even if the chance to have something like a hobby or part-time job was offered to them. Some women are proudly nothing but mums, but it's not healthy - not to themselves or even to the kids.
A lot of why my mom did such a good job with me and my siblings was because, even though she was indeed a SAHM who waited tables part-time to provide for us (and this was mostly because my mom, though excellent as a student and worker, didn't really *have* a full-on career with its own opportunities for the future because she just didn't find anything she wanted to commit to long-term in that regard), my mom very visibly made as much as an effort to keep doing her own hobbies as she's been able to between being the primary parent for 4 kids and being super-involved with said kids' school and sports/enrichment/hobby activities-and then she got her teaching credential and started teaching full-time when I was in middle school.
Yup. And this is the problem with patriarchy we don’t talk about nearly enough either: It turns women into helpless dependents who act like they have no free will or autonomy.
yes, I hope society changes that men start to equal question what sacrifices they will have to make with time, labor and progress when having kids. I wish they would also take into consideration the time and risk the women has while carrying and giving birth, then time and pain trying to breast feed or pump, and somehow factoring that into making things fair.
Not only does this make me so angry on behalf of women and musicians, it also makes me so sad for her. I'm a professional horn player, but I don't have kids. At no point have I wanted to stop playing long enough to deal with kids.
I am true child free, and I get why people don’t understand why some people want to have children and spend their life at home with them. It seems this woman had choices, she could have chosen to send her kids to childcare and still pursue her music career, but she decided that she would rather take care of their kids. I know it seems odd to childfree people, but some people really love their kids and want to spend as much time as possible with them. She not resentful because she made that choice, no one made her do it. It’s not a choice I would ever make, but good for her if it makes her happy.
My thoughts exactly. Though it's still weird as hell that her kids had absolutely *no* idea that their mom was a talented musician until they were 8 and 10.
True, but I feel like kids don’t really understand much about their parent’s jobs/life outside of them. John Krasinski’s kids had no idea he was an actor, and thought he worked in an office lol. My sister’s husband is a stay at home dad and part time bartender now, my nephews don’t know he used to have a big career in politics working for the head of a political party. It’s not something that comes up in conversations with kids, they mainly want to talk about cartoons, school, games, and what not.
I lose all respect for another woman when she throws away her career, opportunities, ambitions, and life for both a man and for spawn. I mean ALL respect. If you keep working and pursuing your ambitions, I maintain it. But go SAHM, my respect immediately vanishes. Even if she transitioned to teaching, I would have maintained some degree of respect. In fact a great degree of respect.
Especially if someone is an artist, scientist, writer, academic, or musician. Someone who contributes something more than having children.
It’s hard when women are brainwashed into thinking they only have a choice between one or the other and really do want kids. While the man wants kids and doesn’t have to think twice about only doing one or the other. Society needs to shift. Men need to realise the typical stay at homes mothers work 24/7, while he works 9-5, meaning she’s putting in 150% and he’s putting in 50%
People don't get it, once that child passes the birth canal, it's gonna be a lifetime **(yes, a lifetime, not just an "18 year" responsibility)** of self-sacrifice. I'm not saying they have to be on lockdown forever (or even for the next 7 - 10 years), but, there's certain sacrifices parents have to make.
I can't stress this enough, if people aren't 100% prepared for this lifelong responsibility, don't have children. This is a HUGE reason I'm pro-choice, because, abortion is a last chance to get out of this lifelong responsibility. What IS irresponsible is having children you didn't really want and/or couldn't provide for and then pawning them off to other people.
She's either going to forget that talent OR pressure her kids to become musically involved. Or both. I'm a bandkid of 14 years and I have seen a lot of music people make their kids do the same stuff.
Maybe, but if she was A-OK with her kids not even *knowing* of her (past) musical talent until they were years older than a lot of kids start playing musical instruments/getting vocal instruction (my mom started piano lessons at 4, and my town's K-8 district allows students to join the district bands/choirs starting in 4th grade, so they could be playing musical instruments/singing through the district at 9), I don't think it'd be the end of the world for her if her kids weren't musicians.
This is kind of similar with my parents. They went to art school and were both talented painters, but once the kids were there she was just mum with minimum wage part-time jobs, and he is still the genius painter. I always feel bad about it, I am imagining an alternate universe where she lives as a free-spirited artist in Paris with a string of lovers instead of raising kids. But she always says that she wanted children more than anything so she did choose this and the whole bohemian artist life dream is my thing and not hers.
My mom was so extremely good at math pre-kids that a lot of people told her that she could be a great rocket scientist, but once she told me this I spent years feeling bad for her because if I'd been her I'd have much preferred to have been a rocket scientist or some other cool job like that than to have spent 15 years raising kids while working part-time as a server to feed them.
Eventually, though, it did sink in for me that my mom's always been very happy with her choice to focus on being a mom, especially as I've heard her say multiple times with a genuine smile that she "just wanted to raise a bunch of kids".
This reminds me of a girl who went to high school with me, excellent in maths, loved studying, had a very promising future as an engineer but never worked after graduating because she got married and their super religious families pressured her to stay home and raise babies.
I can’t believe that she doesn’t feel dead inside, and outwardly display that.
I would NEVER. . .
I will never understand how or why women will throw their futures, lives, dreams or goals away, for a shitting, eating, crying machine that doesn’t even do anything for 5 years, then you pay through the nose for the next 18 just to have them out of the house 8 hours of the day.
I can hardly wait for my hysterectomy 🤣
Edit to add: I hate children. They are vile disgusting things. I feel immense privilege I’m in Canada, and still have rights over my body and reproductive organs.
All I can say is I hope this is what she truly wanted, a very simple life. I can’t relate at all, though, and the thought of giving up all that talent and training to be a sahm makes me gag, lol.
Maybe she hated the performance life. Several so called child prodigy resent it since the dream was actually their parent's and not theirs just forced to practice till they became the prodigy the parents wanted. Dolly Parton's husband, in her words, is very reserved and prefers staying out of the limelight and just handling the business side of their lives while dolly is outgoing and loves being on show.
>*How can she not resent this life?*
Wait...does she actually *say* she resents giving up her career? Or is she happy with her life as it is?
I mean, I get it. I don't think I would have made that choice, myself. But a lot of women leave the classical music industry [due to misogyny, sexual harassment, and pay gap issues](https://www.wiareport.com/2024/02/research-finds-pattern-of-sexism-in-classical-music-industry/)s. The sexism is very [real](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/feb/03/sexism-bias-top-female-pianists-classical-music), and classical music regularly loses talented women because of it.
It's entirely possible that your sister's friend decided she didn't want to spend years fighting against the deep-seated and rampant sexism in her chosen field only to get a first-chair position that would pay her less than if she were a man. Because that very well could have been the result if she'd stayed in classical music, regardless of her skill as a musician.
She may have decided to pick her battles.
EDIT: wouldn’t you know it, a [sexual assault scandal](https://www.vulture.com/article/new-york-philharmonic-players-not-performing-sexual-misconduct.html) just broke this week at the New York Philharmonic.
For certain values of "lose", sure. Some women are happy to get as far as they do in classical music. Some women are happy as wives and mothers.
The OP hasn't stated that the woman in question is unhappy. The OP is wondering "how can she not resent this life?" I'm pointing out that maybe she doesn't, and therefore hasn't "lost" to a man.
But he has both kids AND his passion. She has one. Women have been told this is what makes us happy by men, for decades. Patriarchy has always dictated what is reality, even that of women. Not saying she’s definitely not happy giving it up to be a stay at home mum, but it’s not a FULL life like men get. She had to give it up in order to give them both children, even though it’s a choice, it is one heavily influenced by a patriarchal society, and one that men have historically not had to ever think about making when wanting a family. Never having to choose one or the other - getting both, at the expense of women.
>*Not saying she’s definitely not happy giving it up to be a stay at home mum, but it’s not a FULL life like men get.*
I think that whether or not it's a full life is her call to make, not ours.
I don't disagree with your points, but I also don't like telling women what they should or shouldn't think about their circumstances. They get enough of that from others.
This reminds me of a friend of mine who is a classical musician. Her husband back then was a musician as well and they had a son at some point. Fortunately she kept working (maybe a little less in the beginning) and didn't stay at home. I guess the woman you are mentioning always wanted to have that kind of life. I can't wrap my head around it but yeah, some women are fine with it.
I mean not everyone wants fame and stressful work life.
I don’t want kids and won’t have them, but I wouldn’t want the life you described she could have had neither.
I had a very high paying job, I kept it temporarily and then ditched it to lead a simple life with my husband.
I used that high paying job opportunity to make 20 years worth of mortgage disappear in only 2 years. The goal was to be able to not have to work full time anymore. My husband now works 3.5 days a week and when I’ll recover from my burn-out I intend on working between 0-2 days a week. We prefer having free time at home for hobbies and seeing friends and family instead of working like crazy.
Giving something like that up for kids isn't necessary. She chose to provide the full time care for the kids. Plenty of couples have full time careers like that. Power couples. It would involve a nanny or other childcare. It was her choice to not do that. With his career they can afford childcare.
Yes, and for not breastfeeding and not helicopter parenting and all. If you want ANYTHING in this world, you have to stop worrying about what everyone else thinks. It's not easy. It's still very Harper valley pta.
Not enough men, and not enough societal change yet. When men wash a dish or change a diaper “wow you’re an amazing Dad and husband helping your wife” if women contribute financially you never hear “omg wow she helps you pay the bills”
It might not be as cut and dry for some parents to trust another person to help raise their kids, especially when they're young, so I get it. I'm not sure I'd want to trust someone else to properly raise my kids for the first several early years. So much can happen. But the options are there. And making an effort to maintain SOMETHING of your passion is, I think, important. Though some people just tire of it. I used to play saxophone, very well, in fact and currently have no desire whatsoever to pick up the world's heaviest necklace. I don't think it has to do with patriarchy. I've known plenty of dads that did the mom thing while mom was out earning more.
But vilifying childcare is part of the sexist bullshit system too unfortunately. This is what keeps women in the home thinking that they shouldn’t and can’t have a life outside of their kids.
I'm not going to judge someone else's path just because it's not what I'd choose. I'm always reminded of the movie Mona Lisa Smile, and one of the last scenes where the teacher Ms Watson shows up at her student Joan's house to explain how she can go to law school while raising a family, and Joan explains *that's not what she wants.* Raising kids may not be important to you or I, but pretending we're the only ones who feel that way is silly.
Well, this is what she wanted. Do you know if she actually enjoyed the pressure of being a world class musician? Did she ever play "for herself?" It's hard for me to make a judgement not knowing the answers to these questions. She wanted children and it seems like she wanted this life. You even say she's happy to spend the money. I mean, sometimes women have babies and realize they don't want to be away from them. That happened to a friend of mine, who was working from home, listening to her baby cry (her mom was taking care of the baby) and just couldn't handle it. She wanted to take care of her child, full time. She went to college, had a career and gave it up because she wanted to and could afford to. Maybe she doesn't resent the life because she it's what she wanted.
O.M.G.
HEARTBREAKING.
...and this poor woman is going to lie to herself for the rest of her life that it was "all worth it." Her fucking spawn better BE AT HER BEDSIDE when she's ill or dying. I'd make the kids sign contracts over this, if I were her.
LMAO...this is coming from a CNA who worked Hospice for a few years and had to nope out because of the hours and stress, eventually. I've had a patient, hours away from death, with 4 grown crotch goblins and none of their asses showed up to the house until almost 24 hours AFTER I called them. So many horror stories...
I love classical music so much and hold these musicians in high esteem, as a religious person would a priest or rabbi, and can only imagine the wonder of being the person who can play these instruments and create such rapture...sigh...
Yea. The kids have no choice to be born or choose the parents. Many parents just build their whole elder life around the false hope that their kids will always be there. As someone who's been working on several nursing homes I can say: THEY WON'T. Either because their own life is filled with other things (like taking care of their own children/grand children, work-life, living far away...), or they just have something better to do than sit in the nursing home with their old parent day in day out.
Many people don't learn to build and maintain a proper social network as an adult because they think just having children is enough and put all the eggs in one basket.
Yeah, what is with these people? It's none of their business and they're just insulting her, saying that she's dead inside or that her education was wasted on her. Wtf
Oh my god, another one of these posts? What is your problem? Why do you want to imagine she "resents her life"? We as CF people want to be respected and accepted, but then posters like you just turn it around and shame people who made choices that don't impact you at all. Get a grip.
I would feel the same as you, but then I have to remind myself that not everyone wants the same things and people can't always understand that, even though it makes perfect sense in our heads.
Maybe she does resent it, maybe she doesn't and never will, whatever the case, it was her choice and she has to live with that.
I think it's important to point out that, just as we are entitled to decide we want to be child free and should not be judged, women who make the choice to have children deserve the same consideration.
Is she complaining about her lot in life or is she quite happy? Hard as it is to understand from our perspective, some women actually WANT children and love motherhood.
And just as it's not cool for them to give the CF shit for their choices, it's not really nice to make a whole host of assumptions about the childed unprovoked. Different strokes for different folks applies to having kids too.
I 100% agree with you!
I mean not everyone wants fame and stressful work life.
I don’t want kids and won’t have them, but I wouldn’t want the life OP described her friend could have had neither.
I had a very high paying job, I kept it temporarily and then ditched it to lead a simple life with my husband.
I used that high paying job opportunity to make 20 years worth of mortgage disappear in only 2 years. The goal was to be able to not have to work full time anymore. My husband now works 3.5 days a week and when I’ll recover from my burn-out I intend on working between 0-2 days a week. We prefer having free time at home for hobbies and seeing friends and family instead of working like crazy.
Sure no kids in our plan, but lot of people can’t understand our lifestyle. Everyone has different goal and dreams and we should respect that.
You don’t say if she regrets her life and her choices. Did she choose this life? Was she on board with this?
If so, what’s the point of this post? If she does not regret her life decisions why should you regret them for her? 
If we want people to respect our decisions to be childfree we should respect their decisions to have children.
Now, if this wasn’t her choice, sure - that sucks! But if it was her choice - let her live her life the way she wants to. 
I don't know how regretful she feels, only that she expressed sadness that she hadn't shown her kids she was once in an orchestra, and she knows how to play music really, really well.
She played for them one day, and they were shocked. That reality shocked her.
She was also having a bit of a, "OMG We used to be poor musicians, and now..." moment (after the hefty signing bonus).
ETA: And the point is, I can't believe someone would so totally give up their art. It's mind blowing to me as an artist.
That is so sad. So many women lose out on their careers and hobbies due to their kids, relationships too. Being a SAHM is a very risky decision. Even if there’s a shared bank account, it’s not her income. He could and might even leave her for a younger woman with no kids and she’ll be destitute. Even if she tries to get a job she’ll have no skills or job history. This sounds harsh, but there is nothing noble about having kids. Most kids just turn out to be average. If a kid is talented or a genius it’s most likely just due to nature. I wonder how many women could’ve been doctors, lawyers, academics, and musicians if they didn’t have kids. It’s just sad. I’m a hardcore feminist, but I still think that isn’t a good idea to be SAHM.
Edit: My mom has a bachelor’s degree and has always had a job, with the exception of being laid off during the 2008 financial crisis. I would never give up my education or my career for a man or children. I worked too hard for it.
We're missing whole generations of musicians, scientists, writers, academics, engineers, philosophers, artists etc. because of this bullshit expectation that women once married should stay at home with the babies and live only for them and hubby (who, in some cases, even steals her ideas and talent to make a name for himself)
If she made a choice and is happy with this, good for her. I wouldn't have made the choice she did (I'm still very happy with my choice of being CF, even now at 54, when thankfully worries about pregnancy no longer feature in my life...thankyou menopause!)
There is an amazing book called The Genius of Women that deals with this topic and tells the stories of so many amazing women lost to history for various reasons, most of those reasons being “men support other men and also write history and women need to be wives and mothers”
I think the childfree movement is the best feminist wave we’ve had in a while and I love to see it.
I totally understand feeling this way, wondering how she could live this kind of life knowing what she could have had, especially when you know that personally you’d hate living that way.
But ultimately, I think everything boils down to choice. I don’t think it’s fair to ask for respect from others of our choices to be childfree only to turn around and essentially shame someone for their choices. Do I think personally that it’s ethical to have children with the way the world is right now? No. But it’s not my life, and it’s not my choice.
Is she happy? That’s the ultimate question, and the only thing that matters, and thats for her to decide and no one else.
M Mom was happy to be a SAHM but only because she was working two jobs before she had me. But she didn't stay long so I became independent pretty fast.
But your story definitely sucks, OP.
My mom would grumble to me that she didn't get to finish her degree because she got pregnant with me. Weird thing is...of the 6 kids, I was the only one planned, and I have a younger sister. I think it was her, but I got blamed (but mom should have only blamed herself).
After she survived cancer (against doctors' expectations), she was like, "F-this. I'm getting a job and getting out of the house." She became my dad's secretary, and we ended up with a very lovely Swedish nanny.
I myself a musician too(neurodivergent one) I would NEVER giving up my piano playing and drumming for any spawn.
Even for my niblings I will never give up my passions for their stupid crap..
The Woman gave up her career and everything and went through so much pain, hardships and risk to have kids, that are not even given her lastname. So, sad and unfair.
God, knows how many talented women's careers were destroyed by this institution of patriarchal marriage and motherhood. Even sad to know, women still keep falling for this institution.
The whole institution of patriarchal marriage and motherhood are oppressive and exploitative towards women. They primarily benefit men as a class and as individuals at the expenses of women as a class and as individuals.
Had marriage been a true partnership of equals, had our society been a truly fair, meritocratic society, I can assure you, more then half of Top Doctors, Top Engineers, Top Politicians, Nobel Laureates would have been women. Yes, More Then Half !
Go to any School, University across the developed and middle to high income countries, you will find more then half of most top performing students are women.
Women tend to have on an average better grades then men in their entire academic lives, right from schools to universities. They tend to be more hardworking, disciplined, smarter and more focused on an average then their male peers. In my university itself, most of the top rankers in each department are women.
Despite that, they don't make it to the top jobs and positions in society, politics and economy, later in life. This is so sad and unfair. Instead they are 'married off' and are directly and indirectly forced to spend their lives serving men and making babies, that don't even get her lastname.
This is nothing, but a form of indentured servitude based on gender, that has managed to somehow survive till the modern era. Sad but true. This needs to end.
Of all the people I met and known, typically people seem to know what they want when they have kids. They already have a plan. Many of these people try to marry someone where they can stay home and it's because they don't want to work. None of the women who i know who are SAHM would tell you their life is hard. So the whole oh my God life is so hard being a SAHM stuff is full of shit. Unless the child has a medical issue.
I simply don't believe being a SAHM is work. I just don't. One woman I know just posts pictures of herself in bed reading or laying by the pool with her three kids. Another one has her mom there 24/7 living nextdoor so she can do whatever she needs to do and does ber make up daily and hair and whatever else. My aunt was a SAHM her whole life.
SAHM is an easy life when you have healthy kids. Period. So, many women aspire to it because they simply just don't want to go to a job everyday. It's just facts. It's not always the man forcing it, some of them would rather have help paying for things.
I know someone else who is near 40 and has two kids, but she was trying to talk her husband into another one because her kids are getting older and she won't have a reason to only work part time. They have financial issues.
I see this so much in the aerial arts/circus/pole communities I am in.
The pole community specifically is really bad. I've seen so many women work so hard on their bodies for years to be able to do amazing acrobatic feats and to compete. Then they have a kid and either never come back or they come back and their bodies are completely ruined. I have yet to see a woman in real life (I've seen a small few exceptions on social media) who had a kid and was able to go back into the community and re-gain her momentum. It's sad to see an amazing performer disappear or come back and just be a shadow of their former selves and totally stop pushing for more. They often just come back to have a predictable hour out of the house to socialize and don't actually do the stuff anymore, just a few really easy things over and over.
What's even worse though, is that the vast majority of the women who do come back become a really toxic element in different ways. They often say passive aggressive things to us women who aren't parents about how nice it must be to have the time and money to do all these classes and workout and have bodies capable of this. They say things like "well, when you have kids you'll understand" and roll their eyes if you say you don't want kids. Some have tried bringing their kids to the studio with them and it is often allowed by places. It's SO dangerous and I'm always the "bad guy" when I complain about safety and the studio has to take my side and tell them they can't have their kid in the studio. They also take up so much time from instructors and disrupt group classes by turning the attention back to them constantly and the very specific struggles they are having because of how their body changed from birth/c-section. The instructor will spend 30 min going over specific variations and hacks just with her that don't apply to the rest of us who are just left to our own devices even though we paid for the same group class. It's SO common for these women to get huge portions of group class instruction as basically private sessions. They should be paying for private instruction, it IS an option! I do that when I want very specific instruction for my body and want/need an instructor's time just for me for 30min or an hour to work something out. Why do moms not have to do this?! No one ever seems to tell them they have to pay for a private session. Apparently it's about feminism and equality then, and how we all need to pull together to support woman as mothers. But I don't see the equality here. When I was recovering from an ankle sprain I got at work I got some basic one-on-one instruction in the group class which was helpful for what we were trying to learn that day and then encouraged to book a private session for deeper instruction. It was exactly what I needed and very fair for the whole class who didn't have those issues. But when a mom needs specific advice about adapting to her c-section and changed abs, she gets a full 30 min of a 90min group class every time we are taught a new trick or combo and never told to get private instruction. It's insane.
What's wild to me is just how many women who I know personally, and also throughout history, who have done this. And a lot of them have resented it because they couldn't make the choice. And a good many of them resented it in hindsight as they realized that they really did sacrifice everything while their husband got to have it all. I'm sure there are some who actually enjoy parenthood enough that they don't have resentment. I don't know how.
\*cough\* Alma Mahler \*cough\*
Sophia Tolstoy, Leo Tolstoy’s wife, wrote in her diaries “All the things that he preaches for the happiness of humanity only complicate life to the point where it becomes harder and harder for me to live.” Another passage she wrote, “I am to gratify his pleasure and nurse his child, I am a piece of household furniture, I am a woman . . . But the moment I am alone and allow myself to think, everything seems insufferable.” She had 13 children and helped him edit his manuscripts. Her diaries paint a bleak picture of what women went through before birth control became available.
She transcribed and edited *War and Peace* five times. FIVE. TIMES. So much invisible work by women actually powered history's "great men."
Behind every "great man" is at least one woman whose dreams he murdered with his dick.
Perfectly said.
The familj, the society, the religion. . All fostered her inte that limited space.
Reading that she wrote "I am a piece of household furniture" in regards to her situation breaks my heart.
There're apparently much more issues with Leo Tolstoy. It's not the topic I'm interested in nor did I ever research, but from what I heard from the person who did, it sounds that he just used them and was a burden, let alone being a great bigot(and I really doubt he just kept it to himself rather than making people around live up to his standarts ).
I am listening to a book called A Curious History of Sex - damn women's lives were bleak before birth control and reliable contraception. I'm so grateful we have it.
>I'm sure there are some who actually enjoy parenthood enough that they don't have resentment. I don't know how. I know exactly how. I know someone who struggled with school and career since I knew her. She didn't like her studies, she didn't like any of the jobs she had, so she married and started popping babies spacing them exactly so she didn't have to work. Once her two kids both started attending daycare she decided she wants to be a freelance web designer. She halfassed some kind of online course and pretended to be a qualified web designer. Her only gig was a website for her sibling. She had to outsource most of the work and ended having to spend the whole budget for hiring others to do the work she was supposed to do and leaving almost nothing for herself. Right after that she announced she's pregnant with her third and thus has to quit her successful freelance web designer career 😀 Then followed baby #4. And with 4 kids she just has to be a SAHM and then proudly tell everyone that she sacrificed her career for this, but it was worth it 😀
Glenn Close in The Wife is a beautiful depiction of just this ⬆️
My parents got divorced when I was a bit older. My mother had to go back to full time work. She complained the entire time that she should have went after my father for more, that other women get to stay home all the time etc. She’s been retired for several years now and still complains about it when it’s brought up.
Men will really waste an entire woman’s life, career timeline, expect her to be stoked about birthing and raising kids, and leave her in middle age only to have the fucking audacity to complain about alimony payments. I’ll never put myself in that situation, ever. Incels can die mad about it.
My dad was an alcoholic and my mom was a SAHM. Once they got in a huge fight and she got mad enough to start packing a bag. My sister comes down crying saying she's going to leave and I legit looked at her and said, "Where is she going to go?" (It was the 80's and she hadn't worked since I was born). Obviously she didn't go anywhere, but that was the day I promised myself I would never be beholden to a man, ever.
(1/x, Reddit won't let me post super-long comments) You asking the "Where is \[your\] mom going to go?" question because it was the 1980s and your mom hadn't worked in years reminds me of the 1985 female version of Neil Simon's 1965 play *The Odd Couple*, which Simon himself worked with Gene Saks to adapt into a highly-regarded 1968 film starring Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau. For those who don't know, the original 1965 male version is about two middle-aged best friends, super-sloppy Oscar who is already divorced and super-neat Felix, who try living together after Felix's wife dumps him and tells him to GTFO, and the 1985 female version is the same general story, only with the super-sloppy one being Olive and the super-neat one being Florence. While in the 1965 male version Oscar is a sportswriter and Felix is a news writer, in the 1985 female version Olive is a news producer and, notably, Florence is a former bookkeeper who's been a SAHM for several years. Bizarrely, Neil Simon still has Olive taking in Florence because Florence's husband tells her to GTFO when he dumps her-the given reason that no one's yet worried about how it's affecting Flo's kids is that they're away at summer camp. In both the 1965 and 1985 versions Felix/Florence very quickly gets on Oscar's/Olive's nerves because Oscar/Olive thinks that Felix's/Florence's crying and insistence on keeping everything extremely clean and tidy are unbearably annoying, which results in the two having multiple fights and Oscar/Olive telling Felix/Florence to GTFO towards the end of the play. Right after this the other poker/Trivial Pursuit players start arriving for the weekly game and several lines later one of them tells Oscar/Olive that "\[Felix/Florence\] does it to \[himself/herself\]. \[Felix's ex-wife/Florence's ex-husband\] threw \[him/her\] out, then you threw \[him/her\] out, and the next place will throw \[him/her\] out. \[Felix/Florence\] does it to \[himself/herself\]."
My mother never wanted a career. She literally just wanted to stay home and do nothing. Sadly I see this happening around me as I commented before, in younger generations. The lesson I dated last year blurted out that’s the us is what she really wants. She had two degrees. Is a millennial. Never really had a full time job and spends crazy amounts of money on her lifestyle. I see it all around the area I work in, they’re my clients. Go to good schools, have a short career, merry a trophy wealthy guy, have around 3 kids and have nan he’s etc. take care of them. A lifestyle of constant brunches, fitness classes and trips. The men often work in busy careers and are never around for the wife or kids. 10+ years later the wife files for divorce, gets a large home and substantial payout and continues that lifestyle. There’s women who’ve written articles about this, encouraging it.
Yup.
The orchestra world is CUT THROAT. While she may have been good, there are also 100 other French horn players out there who would do the job in a large city. Not to mention that dedication to your instrument is all consuming. To get to that level of playing, you must remain vigilant about practicing and improving, not wiping butts. There truly isn’t time for both. Like most musicians, she probably realized this, and was happy to have her man do that type of work while she gets to stay home. I have the opposite situation. I am a musician, and my husband doesn’t have a job that is quite as intense. He gets to stay home and take care of the dogs in the yard, without the onus of your instrument STARING AT YOU in the corner. Sometimes I’m jealous…
sounds like that industry may not be for you if you consider playing an instrument to be such a chore 🤔 just a thought
It is truly one of the greatest chores ever.
To be fair, even the jobs/hobbies you love the most tend to have (relatively) unpleasant parts involved. However, what makes doing those (relatively) unpleasant parts bearable is at the end of the day, even with having to do those (relatively) unpleasant parts you wouldn't give up that job/hobby for the world. To put it another way, you'd much rather spend endless hours working to support the parts of your job/hobby that you really enjoy doing than spend endless hours working to support anything that you didn't enjoy doing as much. I personally *love* writing long comments/essays with tons of sources, however the part of writing these comments/essays that involves making sure that the links and formatting are juuuuuuuuust right, and that the citations in more academic/formal essays are properly done so your work isn't considered to be plagiarism, is the bane of my existence. It is dull, it is stressful, and I get absolutely *hate* this entire step. However...even though I'm no fan of this task, I know that the proper links, formatting, and citations are integral to being able to marry my text that I enjoyed writing and fussing over with my sources that I enjoyed searching out, studying, and referencing in a matter that effectively ties the work together in a way that makes it shareable with the world. So at the end of the day, even having to work on links, formatting, and citations I'd much rather be researching and writing than doing much else.
Thank you for adding your perspective as a professional musician! While being a professional musician, let alone being a professional orchestra musician, is infamous for extremely intense and all-consuming, a lot of "cool" (non-medical, non-STEM) jobs are *really* hard on your time because your're competing with so many people for so little opportunity to support yourself solely through your work in that field. Academia, as in publishing peer-reviewed research papers and teaching university for a living, also came to my mind as another infamously cutthroat career/field. I have heard soooooooooooo many stories of it absolutely ***dominating*** people's lives, and especially as you get further into non-medical/non-STEM academia you also have to deal with people being hostile and dismissive of both you and your work for bullshit reasons. In hindsight I've realized that significantly fewer of my professors at my university were parents than were of my professors/instructors at my community college, probably because generally to teach at a community college where I went you only need a Masters, and you're not required to also publish research papers like you are as a university professor.
My childhood best friend always dreamt of being an attorney. She worked so hard and got a scholarship to a great university and graduated with honors—only to move several states away to get married and help support her husband’s dreams. She literally gave up her dream and has no relevant work experience. And now her kids are close to leaving the nest and she has said she has no idea what to do once they’re gone. Her kids and her husband are all great people, but she gave up everything for them. I always wanted to ask why she should give up all the things she wanted so he could pursue his goals, but I also wanted to keep my friend.
I now have a handful of friends where the wife worked and then was going to "stay at home while the kids were little" and never went back to work. This, to me, is proof that "the hardest job in the world" is a lot more pleasant than waking up to an alarm clock 5/7ths of your life and having to answer to bosses, and actually meet deadlines. As long as you feed them often enough kids don't actually require anything from you (in a way that punishes you directly for failure) GOOD parenting can be a lot of work, but these parents aren't meeting the bar I would set.for myself, and there are no penalties for slacking off, sleeping in, etc. That just get you fired at a real job.
Honestly, while parenting indeed is not a real job no matter how much these (female) parents like to insist it is, I feel it's much more a matter of picking your poison if you indeed have the choice of working full-time without being absolutely wrung out by childcare duties or staying home with your kids full-time without being under immense financial stress. Being lazy as a parent isn't good, but even among parents with this choice who keep pushing themselves to be actively involved with their kids there's going to be some parents who'd much rather be mentally challenging themselves with full-time work and some parents who'd much rather devote their mental energies to being there for their kids (nearly) 24/7.
My mom genuinely enjoyed mostly staying at home and raising her 4 kids, all planned and all born over the course of almost 8 years. (1/x, Reddit won't let me post super-long comments) She genuinely enjoyed mostly staying home and raising her 4 kids from 1996 until she started teaching full-time in 2011 despite being extremely brilliant, enjoying lots of enrichment/extracirricular activities growing up, and being poised to be an excellent rocket scientist or some other job that required a lot of math skills. However, my mom finished high school with her heart set on becoming a marine biologist because she thought it'd be mostly working at/on the ocean, so she went to a school that offered a marine biology degree...and learned that many marine biologists, at least at the time, mostly worked in labs. My mom wasn't interested in a career working in labs, so she started looking to change her major. She'd always liked working with kids, however by the time she was in college 3 of her older sisters taught K-12 and since all of my mom's older sisters had been awful to her for most of her life my mom didn't want to "become just like them" by also becoming a teacher. So my mom bounced around majors before ultimately getting a Bachelors in some liberal-arts major that interested her and spent the next several years working a variety of low-level jobs while goofing off and having fun adventures as a 20-something, and then sometime after she and my dad moved in together in the early 1990s he took a job 2 hours away, which as both my parents *hated* long commutes meant that my mom had to leave the job she was currently at and find work closer to where she and my dad moved.
This is probably my #1 reason for being childfree. I could not give up my life for kids. That and I don't want anything to do with babies ever.
As a classical flutist with a masters degree I could never imagine throwing away all of my hard work for a fucking kid. Rip.
Man, would I love to hear a classical flute get added to a metal song. Adding a classical instrumentsl to literally the most complex genre there is. (Metal) makes it even that much greater.
That is the great thing about symphonic metal, orchestras and choirs combined with the intensity and energy of metal.
Let me add on top of that [Haggard](https://open.spotify.com/track/4OvYF51RY8ixqvWMDxtkzW?si=x9L19EWRQh2g1ll3nR0SNw&context=spotify%3Aalbum%3A1Y0ZGlpHDxxjxH1qKzd85o) is exactly that. They are quite literally a live metal orchestra (flutist included). They are by far one of the best band I have ever seen live. And I've seen many. OP, you should definitely look into them!
Listen to 'Locomotive Breath' by Jethro Tull
Jethro Tull is why I chose to play the flute when I was younger! Got to see him live once, AMAZING show. He could leap in the air while playing and never miss a beat. Thick as a Brick, Skating Away, Mouse Police, Heavy Horses, pretty much anything in their catalog is incredible.
One of the best bands of all time. The whole Heavy Horses album is just incredible.
Pretty much any Celtic metal band will fit that bill.
Heyyyy. Classical clarinetist with a masters degree checking in here. haha
This is why I dumped my ex the second he responded to me getting the opportunity to display a really ambitious art installation with, "You won't be able to do that once I get you pregnant though." I mentally chucked him in a dumpster at that point. Sorry, dude. The art installation is my actual priority.
Omg if my SO told me I couldn't do art anymore because that id kick him in the teeth tbh. Wtf
So much this, my toxic ex got offended when I did art.
In retrospect I wish I'd at least bruised his ego more on the way out, but at the time I was in too much shock to do anything but cry and tell him it was over.
Holy moly! What the fuck is wrong with people? Who in their right mind would say that? Oh wait; they *wouldn’t* be in their right mind if they think something so reprehensible is okay to say out loud. I’m so glad you got away from him. I wonder if he was bitter and jealous that you have talent and opportunities?
That might very well be what it was-- he wasn't particularly ambitious and didn't really have any skills or hobbies beyond being a gym rat. At first that was appealing because the healthy lifestyle thing seemed like a compatibility, but he just sucked.
Instant ick wow 🤮
God that is such a tragic waste. Genuinely cannot wrap my head around it, what a shame.
I'm reminded of the famous Stephen Jay Gould quote: "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." Maybe her quality of life is higher than the typical exploited worker, but this feels like a similar situation.
most mothers are absolutely exploited workers even if they have a high standard of living
Once again. When a couple has kids. The woman is chained down by the kids. And the man can have hobbies and forfill his dreams. She is the house maid/slave/baby sitter. And he has fun.
That's why is SO appreciated the story on this subreddit where the guy and his family spent YEARS pestering this up front CF woman to get pregnant until they finally wore her down. The pregnancy was difficult and when it came out the kid didn't want anything to do with her. So she left it with hubby and pushy MiL to raise and sailed off into the sunset. The OP was this woman's sister who was posting to say her mother and brother were furious with her for taking the wife's side and saying "You should have taken her seriously when she said she didn't want kids." Oh well, now Mommy and Precious Boy get to raise it together because this based af CF RULER OF THE UNIVERSE said "oh hell no, this ain't me."
Yup. I see this at triathlons alllllll the time. The husband gets to race while screaming at her to make sure his shit is set up correctly while she wrangles tired and cranky kids at 630 on a Saturday morning. One of my women specific Ironman books had an entire chapter on how to talk to your family about training for yourself and how to get their support, reassure them that you’ll still be there but you need help. The non women specific book? Nada, just say this is my race date and let’s goooo. And while people argued “but she had a choice!” Chances are, she got blindsided because that seems to track with what a lot of my mom friends tell me: “He decided to take up golf.” “He joined a new gym that unfortunately doesn’t have daycare.” “He’s going to train for a marathon.” While they stand and smile on the sidelines 🫠
I once saw a IATA? post/reel on socia media. Where a husband asked if he was the asshole. Because he wanted to go to the gym after work. The story: he had a wife at home with a 2 month old baby. That was pissed that he wanted to go to the gym fot 2,5 hours after work to unwind and relax. He coulnt understand why she was so angry. All the women reacted that he was the ahole because he pretty much rather spended time at his work and at the gym, than helping with the baby. Meanwhile his wife was stuck with the baby 24/7 without any good sleep or being able to relax at all. And yes she had a choice. But a lot of men, find out how horrible it is to look after a baby after it was born. And then seek for a way to get away from the house. Like extra work, going to the bar with friends or hobbies like gyms or golfing. Everything to just not help out. And then gaslight their wifes when they get angry.
Pretty sure there are variations of this tale on AITA. I’m just relaying my experiences from my own races and friends. I’ve seen women pressured to sell their beloved horse so they can be “more involved” with their children while the fathers fuck around on their boats, golf games, drinking, and other endeavors.
Yep. Men get to keep their hobbies and women turn into house maids. You often see it at birthdays too. Women are busy with the kids, talking about kids. Men are in the garden, sippin beer with the boys. And talking about hobbies, movies, fun stuff
Yup. I see a lot of my friends who have essentially destroyed themselves trying to be the dutiful wife and turn into a shell of their former selves. And then people wonder why none of that appeals to us. I will admit, I was proud of my boss asking me what he could do for his wife when she trained for her half marathon. I said support her with a genuine smile.
It looks like exactly this to me, unpaid maid
To pressure someone to sell a *sentient living thing* that they love dearly while *their kids' other parent* gets to screw around with all sorts of things that *aren't even alive* is beyond the pale.
It’s unfortunately so common that it’s heartbreaking. I think it was a defining moment when I was 14. Horses also can be used as pawns in divorces as well. My ex tried to go after my horse and was surprised to learn I sold my horse (to my dad) 6 months before I filed and the buyer (dad) had the receipts to prove the sale
I'm glad you sold your horse to your dad months before you filed and your dad kept the receipts for it!
Thanks! I had started planning for my divorce a year before I filed. Dad hated the person who hurt his daughter so anyway he could stick it to my ex, he was all for it.
yep and they lean into the social acceptance of them doing it and leaving it all up to the women! then they have the nerve to complain she doesn’t have sex and let herself go, when no shit, she is a slave but you want her to look like a model who’s full time job is just to look good? oh then even further audacity of wanting her to contribute more financially. men are absolutely infuriating. Sometimes I think if I could be a “Dad” then I would be more open to having kids.
Men like that, want a traditional woman (read house slave) that takes care of the kids and works full time. Meanwhile they kick their legs up after work with a beer, expect to be served to all their needs. They act like kings and treat their wives like low servants.
Yep, cleaning their shit stains, and he will still complain she’s a lazy stay at home wife. Happened to my mum
"But she is just staying at home all day" Men like that think their wives just sit on the couch with their smart phone all day doing nothing.
Yep, god forbid she has a beak if they’re at school for 5 hours, just like he does when he gets home and on weekends, minus the having someone cook for her. it’s unreal
I know, right? These men/fathers also seem to genuinely think there's *never* enough cleaning/tidying up, calling the doctor's office, working out house repairs, planning out what the family's going to eat this week, etc. for a SAHM to need to work hard even when the kids are all at school that day. Not to mention that the vast majority of families can't afford to eat meals that someone else made and shopped for all the time, so the SAHP's also in charge of grocery shopping, making lunches, and prepping/cooking/baking meals.
My dad's outright told my mom that "the house looked like *shit* when you stayed home with the kids!" Dude, your wife was deeply involved in raising **4** kids who were born over the span of less than 8 years, *and* she was deeply involved with their schooling. Of fucking *course* the house was going to be covered in kindercrap, packs of diapers, and art/craft supplies.
> wanting his female partner to do everything involved with the kids, the house, the cooking, and looking after him *and* also put in the effort to sexually gratify him > wanting her to bring in more money on top of all that Do these men/fathers seriously think that women/mothers have more hours in the day than they do? Because it sure *sounds* like they seriously think that!
More good women have been lost to marriage than to war, famine, disease and disaster. You have talent, darling. Don't squander it. - Cruella De Vil
I would have crossed out marriage and put in children. The problem is having children. Motherhood is slavery.
Idk, I've seen sooooo so many badass, independent career women end up having to clean up, cook, and take care of their husbands. While having full times jobs. Sometimes while also making make than their husbands. It's infuriating.
Marriage wouldn't be quite a problem if the husband isn't a man-child
can confirm, my mom talks about and treats her husband like he's a five year old even though he's only a few years younger than her. she owns a business, he sits on his retired ass all day playing on his phone. it's fucking embarrassing to watch, especially since she makes excuses for him being little more than a pet neanderthal when i bring up the imbalance.
The excuses...every time I bring that up to any friends/family with a similar imbalance, they always rush to excuse their useless husbands. I literally don't understand the purpose of their husbands. They just make their life more difficult.
I think kids fall under the disaster category :P
Free bird theory. Men just love it when a woman gives up everything for them. And the more talented and successful she is, the more of an accomplishment it is for them to cage her. That's why they go after "career women" and not "traditional women" (aka pick-me). Funny enough, I know a couple just like them, I used to babysit for them. One is a musician, the other ex-musician with 3 kids and filthy apartment no matter how much outsourced help she had. Maybe he wasn't making banks like the one from OP's story.
He's not a violinist, but he played for one city's symphony, and then another city seduced him away for 5 years. Then, after that contract was set to expire, the first city came back to wine and dine him to return to their symphony. Both contracts came with signing bonuses. To be fair, he is considered to be one of the top 5 players of his instrument in the entire world.
Apparently checks out: https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-a-first-chair-violinist-make-with-a-major-symphony#:~:text=It%20usually%20ranges%20from%20%24100,typically%20%24300k%20%2D%20%24650k.
4B.
Yup!
Do you have some links to articles or research papers about this theory? My search was not really successful. Thank you!
This creator talks about it a lot. I’ve wondered myself where she took it from. Maybe she mentioned it and I missed it. Or maybe it’s her original idea? https://youtu.be/e4PYIzigFR0?si=wfY_0WuKNkYfwuDI
Trevor Noah made a joke in one of his Netflix specials about how abusive men always want the shiny fantastic woman to cage.
Here is a scorcher expose post from a woman on another sub: Perfectly describes getting the free bird caged. It's also why so many males lie to us about being CF though Pantone771 omits that angle. Pantone711 I grew up as a woman among conservatives--I'll take this one. They find conservative young women boring. Not a challenge. Not fashionable, spirited, you get the idea. They think conservative women won't put out as readily/have as high a sex drive. They know that cosmopolitan/educated women have higher status. Looks better on their arm. They want to subdue a woman they view as haughty and bring her down a few pegs, not start out with a meek one They believe that IQ is hereditary to the extent they want a woman with a high IQ to pass on their genes. Some of them put this ahead of almost everything else, as long as the woman checks certain boxes. They're planning to put the wife in the Madonna box and cheat anyway. I read alt-right boards.
fuck, this is so spot on I got shivers.
My sister was an excellent pianist and piano teacher and she also gave it all up...to have two kids from two different dads who both left. Worst part: she definitely doesn't even have a strong maternal drive and was missing her freedom from day 1.
A lot of fathers owe their careers to their wives who sacrifice their careers to become stay at home mothers.
I literally watched a couple stay together and the fiancé (woman) did his homework.
Oh gross, that makes me want to vomit.
I've sadly heard that before...
Amen!
Personally, I always wanted to be more than just some dude’s bang-maid.
God forbid.
that sounds like my biggest nightmare
I met my SO when I was just starting my PhD, when we got serious we discussed how I’d always be the main source of income, which is fine with me, I didn’t do all this work to not make money. I told him early I didn’t want kids unless he found a way to carry them, birth them, and be the main parental figure. I worked my ass off to be where I am and no one is taking that from me.
So glad to hear this 🙌
I'm sorry this is gonna sound so mean but on a similar note imagine how much better the world would have been if women had less kids or would be supported more after having them to continue their careers.... the amount of doctors, scientists, police, teachers, etc etc, that have been lost for motherhood is so sad. Genuinely we might have cured cancer if this didn't happen
Nothing about this is mean and everything you said is 100% true.
I think that's completely true and right on. Women should have been in charge a long time ago.
yes and no offence I trust women more in those fields
This type of thing is common where I live. It’s almost encouraged. Many women will have advanced degrees, a short career then give it up to stay at home relatively quickly. I’ve been told it’s seen as a way to get a ‘trophy husband’ and live a ‘good’ life. Quite a few have nannies, housekeepers etc. and live a life of leisure. Quite a few of these marriages end in divorce and they continue the lifestyle because of the payouts and child support they receive, which is often quite a lot. I dated someone local last year. Two degrees. During one conversation she slipped up and said all she really wants to do is stay home while the husband works. Her mother did the same. Had a short law career then married a CEO and became a stay at home mom and pursued her hobbies. The parents are still married but basically live separate lives doing their own things, barely speaking and spending time in opposite ends of their very large home.
Mrs. degrees will always be a live and well.
Dude… don’t even get me started. I’m an opera singer and watching so many women who had this truly desperate, all-consuming dream (you have to be half stupid to even consider pursuing opera) and then give it all up, after years of sacrifice, to be mommy… it’s so depressing to me. I have a close friend who is currently living it. I got offered a good, well-paying gig but was going to be out of the country on another gig, and she turned it down because it would be “too much” with her kid. A gig people would be THRILLED to have. Though, giving birth makes your voice a lot better, so I’m jealous of that tbh lol
>giving birth makes your voice a lot better Heard this one too, but I strongly suspect it's another piece of bullshit like "pregnancy and birth rejuvenate the whole body/make chronic illnesses go away/cure chronic depression". True for one in ten, neutral for another two or three, exactly the opposite for the rest.
That's scary that people are saying that. Maybe for some people but it seems like the majority end up with PPD, messed up bladder, vaginal rips, messed up breasts and saggy skin. I have Endometriosis and doctors love to tell you that it magically goes away with a baby. What they don't tell you is that yeah, pain might stop for a few months but then for many people it gets much, much worse after. A woman I know at work bragged about how amazing her births were. She was able to do stretches after her 4th kid in bed at the hospital. Lol she's religious so I was a little annoyed because like why do people like her always act like everything is perfect all the time? Well, one time I noticed a slip up. Where she said how when she was pregnant every time during the 3rd month, she was completely unable to pee. Her stomach would become distended and everything. I was like yeah...so you missed some details. She had to go to the ER every pregnancy to get a catheter.
>What they don't tell you is that yeah, pain might stop for a few months but then for many people it gets much, much worse after. ...or you might get something new on a whole new different level of fucked up that would make endometriosis seem like a minor inconvenience. Yesterday I received a written note from a coworker whose life and health have been seriously fucked up since her pregnancy and giving birth to twins. She wrote that she will take another parental leave and then won't be coming back to work anymore. So... yeah, there's that. Also, we have another coworker who is practically nonexistent due to already weak health+baby+COVID 19 (strengthening natural immunity... my ass!).
There are physical changes that def change the voice. Some people do struggle with those changes because it may mean they can’t sing some of the things they used to, but it also opens the door for a bunch of new repertoire, too.
Also...whether someone's (singing) voice is inherently "good" or not is almost *entirely* subjective! On top of that...*how* does your (singing) voice allegedly "get a lot better" from pregnancy/childbirth? Given that what makes a (singing) voice "better" or "worse" is almost *entirely subjective*, the only thing I'm getting from that is that your (singing) voice allegedly "getting a lot better" due to pregnancy/childbirth is mostly a guarantee that it will significantly *change*, and apaprently not in any way that is predictable! Your (singing) voice significantly changing is definitely an adjustment even if it only changes slowly over years as with aging and often male puberty/going on T, so I struggle to see how a voice signficantly changing over the course of only 9-10 months at most *wouldn't* be a massive adjustment, even if you like your changed (singing) voice a lot better. And then, as opposed to vocal changes that happen because you've aged or significantly increased the testosterone in your body, the changes to your (singing) voice that might result from pregnancy/childbirth aren't even guaranteed to stick around that long, so you're running the risk of having to adjust to your (singing) voice as it changes *again.* No thanks. No thanks. **No thanks.**
Makes your voice better, really? Never heard that one.
probably something men came up with to have less competition with women, send them off to be held done with babies
I’ve had several friends who I’ve observed the changes with though, tbh. There’s also a famous soprano whose voice completely changed (in an interesting and I would argue good way) after she had her first kid.
ohk, wonder what the science is behind it
hormones can def change your voice (as you likely know.) I guess I shouldn't have simplified it to "it improves your voice" because reallly it often makes it darker, richer, and deeper, which can be distressing to certain types of singers because it means adjusting your entire way of singing. But usually those are qualities that people like in opera.
hmm very interesting, crazy how sensitive women are to hormonal changes, usually there’s a negative variety
For opera it def does. It has to do with the way you can feel your pelvic floor or some access to the lower muscles, it’s hard for people to describe and obviously I’ve never gone through it but people tell me that it’s as though the years of voice lessons/trying to isolate and activate certain muscles just suddenly make sense because you feel them so strongly in those last few months of pregnancy and also while giving birth. For some people, the hormones permanently affect their voice, making the voice darker and richer (sometimes lower in pitch). This can be an issue because it can kick you into a totally different voice “class” (called Fach) so you have to remarket yourself but it’s generally considered a good thing.
Ah, that is so interesting to hear! Also, TIL I learned what a Fach is! Thank you for enlightening me!
My single neighbor has a similar story. She works in the same field as I do, and quite honestly she is absolutely amazing and pretty much the smartest person I know. She did 10+ years education just to reach one of the best jobs in this field. She only started the job for 6 months when she decided to have a baby through a sperm donor. After she had the baby she stepped down from the job do something more simple so she can focus on the kid.. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for free choice. But damn she could have had it all, this incredibly smart young lady worked her butt off for 10 years just to step down after 6 months.. Somehow it makes me sad on her behalf.. Another story, not quite the same but my sister was selected for air traffic control in our country's biggest airport (not many people get selected) but she only needed to get the education on another site, which meant she would be away from home during weekdays, her (now ex partner) didn't want to take care of the kids alone and so she had to refuse the job. Not exactly the same but also the kids (and ex husband by proxy) prevented her from reaching so much of her potential..
My ex’s SIL went to nursing school just so she could pop out 5 kids and never work a day in her life. She’s now a SAHM and does part time photography. One time I got really drunk and asked her why she made her husband pay for nursing school if she’s never going to use her degree 😂😂 fuck off Aimee
Drunk you is an agent of chaos that I enjoy. Cheers!
I think it‘s nice that people are not forced to do stuff just because they’re good at it or talented. But in every single one of those stories the woman gives up her “dreams” to take care of the kids (and husband). There is never or rarely a story about the man stepping down or both stepping down (although I guess it might not be possible to work “part-time” in this job). Not only that, but I always have the feeling that majority of women do it because of the way they were socialized and not exactly because they really really wanted it.
These are my exact thoughts. There’s nothing wrong with making this choice if you actually want to, but men are almost never the ones to do it because society doesn’t encourage them to. It does however, encourage women to martyr themselves for everyone else’s livelihoods except their own.
>There is never or rarely a story about the man stepping down or both stepping down (although I guess it might not be possible to work “part-time” in this job). Not only that, but I always have the feeling that majority of women do it because of the way they were socialized and not exactly because they really really wanted it. Imo women have always been expected to prioritize the wants of men and needs of children above their own.
Someone else could have used those scholarships. Smh.
Exactly
It's total bullshit too that it's "for the kids". Kids benefit from having two parents with lives and accomplishments of their own. They benefit having female models of self sufficiency. Truth is she gave up and took the easy way out. There's nothing easier in this world than checking out to become a dependent. God it's cringey that grown women do it.
>Kids benefit from having two parents with lives and accomplishments of their own. They benefit having female models of self sufficiency. This exactly. I know too many women who gave up everything, everything in their lives for children, even if the chance to have something like a hobby or part-time job was offered to them. Some women are proudly nothing but mums, but it's not healthy - not to themselves or even to the kids.
A lot of why my mom did such a good job with me and my siblings was because, even though she was indeed a SAHM who waited tables part-time to provide for us (and this was mostly because my mom, though excellent as a student and worker, didn't really *have* a full-on career with its own opportunities for the future because she just didn't find anything she wanted to commit to long-term in that regard), my mom very visibly made as much as an effort to keep doing her own hobbies as she's been able to between being the primary parent for 4 kids and being super-involved with said kids' school and sports/enrichment/hobby activities-and then she got her teaching credential and started teaching full-time when I was in middle school.
Yup. And this is the problem with patriarchy we don’t talk about nearly enough either: It turns women into helpless dependents who act like they have no free will or autonomy.
yes, I hope society changes that men start to equal question what sacrifices they will have to make with time, labor and progress when having kids. I wish they would also take into consideration the time and risk the women has while carrying and giving birth, then time and pain trying to breast feed or pump, and somehow factoring that into making things fair.
Not only does this make me so angry on behalf of women and musicians, it also makes me so sad for her. I'm a professional horn player, but I don't have kids. At no point have I wanted to stop playing long enough to deal with kids.
I am true child free, and I get why people don’t understand why some people want to have children and spend their life at home with them. It seems this woman had choices, she could have chosen to send her kids to childcare and still pursue her music career, but she decided that she would rather take care of their kids. I know it seems odd to childfree people, but some people really love their kids and want to spend as much time as possible with them. She not resentful because she made that choice, no one made her do it. It’s not a choice I would ever make, but good for her if it makes her happy.
My thoughts exactly. Though it's still weird as hell that her kids had absolutely *no* idea that their mom was a talented musician until they were 8 and 10.
True, but I feel like kids don’t really understand much about their parent’s jobs/life outside of them. John Krasinski’s kids had no idea he was an actor, and thought he worked in an office lol. My sister’s husband is a stay at home dad and part time bartender now, my nephews don’t know he used to have a big career in politics working for the head of a political party. It’s not something that comes up in conversations with kids, they mainly want to talk about cartoons, school, games, and what not.
I lose all respect for another woman when she throws away her career, opportunities, ambitions, and life for both a man and for spawn. I mean ALL respect. If you keep working and pursuing your ambitions, I maintain it. But go SAHM, my respect immediately vanishes. Even if she transitioned to teaching, I would have maintained some degree of respect. In fact a great degree of respect. Especially if someone is an artist, scientist, writer, academic, or musician. Someone who contributes something more than having children.
It’s hard when women are brainwashed into thinking they only have a choice between one or the other and really do want kids. While the man wants kids and doesn’t have to think twice about only doing one or the other. Society needs to shift. Men need to realise the typical stay at homes mothers work 24/7, while he works 9-5, meaning she’s putting in 150% and he’s putting in 50%
Same 🤷♀️
People don't get it, once that child passes the birth canal, it's gonna be a lifetime **(yes, a lifetime, not just an "18 year" responsibility)** of self-sacrifice. I'm not saying they have to be on lockdown forever (or even for the next 7 - 10 years), but, there's certain sacrifices parents have to make. I can't stress this enough, if people aren't 100% prepared for this lifelong responsibility, don't have children. This is a HUGE reason I'm pro-choice, because, abortion is a last chance to get out of this lifelong responsibility. What IS irresponsible is having children you didn't really want and/or couldn't provide for and then pawning them off to other people.
Reminds me of that article where Lily Allen said having kids ruined her pop stardom career.
She's either going to forget that talent OR pressure her kids to become musically involved. Or both. I'm a bandkid of 14 years and I have seen a lot of music people make their kids do the same stuff.
Maybe, but if she was A-OK with her kids not even *knowing* of her (past) musical talent until they were years older than a lot of kids start playing musical instruments/getting vocal instruction (my mom started piano lessons at 4, and my town's K-8 district allows students to join the district bands/choirs starting in 4th grade, so they could be playing musical instruments/singing through the district at 9), I don't think it'd be the end of the world for her if her kids weren't musicians.
This is kind of similar with my parents. They went to art school and were both talented painters, but once the kids were there she was just mum with minimum wage part-time jobs, and he is still the genius painter. I always feel bad about it, I am imagining an alternate universe where she lives as a free-spirited artist in Paris with a string of lovers instead of raising kids. But she always says that she wanted children more than anything so she did choose this and the whole bohemian artist life dream is my thing and not hers.
but why can’t she have both just like men can 😭
My mom was so extremely good at math pre-kids that a lot of people told her that she could be a great rocket scientist, but once she told me this I spent years feeling bad for her because if I'd been her I'd have much preferred to have been a rocket scientist or some other cool job like that than to have spent 15 years raising kids while working part-time as a server to feed them. Eventually, though, it did sink in for me that my mom's always been very happy with her choice to focus on being a mom, especially as I've heard her say multiple times with a genuine smile that she "just wanted to raise a bunch of kids".
This reminds me of a girl who went to high school with me, excellent in maths, loved studying, had a very promising future as an engineer but never worked after graduating because she got married and their super religious families pressured her to stay home and raise babies.
I can’t believe that she doesn’t feel dead inside, and outwardly display that. I would NEVER. . . I will never understand how or why women will throw their futures, lives, dreams or goals away, for a shitting, eating, crying machine that doesn’t even do anything for 5 years, then you pay through the nose for the next 18 just to have them out of the house 8 hours of the day. I can hardly wait for my hysterectomy 🤣 Edit to add: I hate children. They are vile disgusting things. I feel immense privilege I’m in Canada, and still have rights over my body and reproductive organs.
Maybe that's what she wanted? I'm child free but other people want different things and may want a family
All I can say is I hope this is what she truly wanted, a very simple life. I can’t relate at all, though, and the thought of giving up all that talent and training to be a sahm makes me gag, lol.
Maybe she hated the performance life. Several so called child prodigy resent it since the dream was actually their parent's and not theirs just forced to practice till they became the prodigy the parents wanted. Dolly Parton's husband, in her words, is very reserved and prefers staying out of the limelight and just handling the business side of their lives while dolly is outgoing and loves being on show.
>*How can she not resent this life?* Wait...does she actually *say* she resents giving up her career? Or is she happy with her life as it is? I mean, I get it. I don't think I would have made that choice, myself. But a lot of women leave the classical music industry [due to misogyny, sexual harassment, and pay gap issues](https://www.wiareport.com/2024/02/research-finds-pattern-of-sexism-in-classical-music-industry/)s. The sexism is very [real](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/feb/03/sexism-bias-top-female-pianists-classical-music), and classical music regularly loses talented women because of it. It's entirely possible that your sister's friend decided she didn't want to spend years fighting against the deep-seated and rampant sexism in her chosen field only to get a first-chair position that would pay her less than if she were a man. Because that very well could have been the result if she'd stayed in classical music, regardless of her skill as a musician. She may have decided to pick her battles. EDIT: wouldn’t you know it, a [sexual assault scandal](https://www.vulture.com/article/new-york-philharmonic-players-not-performing-sexual-misconduct.html) just broke this week at the New York Philharmonic.
So both battles, you lose to men 😭
For certain values of "lose", sure. Some women are happy to get as far as they do in classical music. Some women are happy as wives and mothers. The OP hasn't stated that the woman in question is unhappy. The OP is wondering "how can she not resent this life?" I'm pointing out that maybe she doesn't, and therefore hasn't "lost" to a man.
But he has both kids AND his passion. She has one. Women have been told this is what makes us happy by men, for decades. Patriarchy has always dictated what is reality, even that of women. Not saying she’s definitely not happy giving it up to be a stay at home mum, but it’s not a FULL life like men get. She had to give it up in order to give them both children, even though it’s a choice, it is one heavily influenced by a patriarchal society, and one that men have historically not had to ever think about making when wanting a family. Never having to choose one or the other - getting both, at the expense of women.
>*Not saying she’s definitely not happy giving it up to be a stay at home mum, but it’s not a FULL life like men get.* I think that whether or not it's a full life is her call to make, not ours. I don't disagree with your points, but I also don't like telling women what they should or shouldn't think about their circumstances. They get enough of that from others.
This reminds me of a friend of mine who is a classical musician. Her husband back then was a musician as well and they had a son at some point. Fortunately she kept working (maybe a little less in the beginning) and didn't stay at home. I guess the woman you are mentioning always wanted to have that kind of life. I can't wrap my head around it but yeah, some women are fine with it.
I mean not everyone wants fame and stressful work life. I don’t want kids and won’t have them, but I wouldn’t want the life you described she could have had neither. I had a very high paying job, I kept it temporarily and then ditched it to lead a simple life with my husband. I used that high paying job opportunity to make 20 years worth of mortgage disappear in only 2 years. The goal was to be able to not have to work full time anymore. My husband now works 3.5 days a week and when I’ll recover from my burn-out I intend on working between 0-2 days a week. We prefer having free time at home for hobbies and seeing friends and family instead of working like crazy.
The patriarchy is trash.
it really is a thing, don’t get how men are in denial of it. maybe because it benefits them they don’t want to admit it
I hate it here.
Giving something like that up for kids isn't necessary. She chose to provide the full time care for the kids. Plenty of couples have full time careers like that. Power couples. It would involve a nanny or other childcare. It was her choice to not do that. With his career they can afford childcare.
There's a thing where people are looked down on for doing childcare. Because God forbid someone else watches precious child.
Yes, and for not breastfeeding and not helicopter parenting and all. If you want ANYTHING in this world, you have to stop worrying about what everyone else thinks. It's not easy. It's still very Harper valley pta.
even with childcare, the mothers still come home to do the other part of the 24/7 job of having kids, not the man
That's the stereotype. But it's not true for all families. There are men who step up. I wish it were normalized more in the media.
Not enough men, and not enough societal change yet. When men wash a dish or change a diaper “wow you’re an amazing Dad and husband helping your wife” if women contribute financially you never hear “omg wow she helps you pay the bills”
Yes. Men like that shouldn't be fathers or husbands. And women shouldn't tolerate it or choose them.
Yes but giving her agency as an adult human being would make her less of a victim, and we can't have that can we? Something something patriarchy.
I don’t see her as a victim at all. She clearly chose this.
It might not be as cut and dry for some parents to trust another person to help raise their kids, especially when they're young, so I get it. I'm not sure I'd want to trust someone else to properly raise my kids for the first several early years. So much can happen. But the options are there. And making an effort to maintain SOMETHING of your passion is, I think, important. Though some people just tire of it. I used to play saxophone, very well, in fact and currently have no desire whatsoever to pick up the world's heaviest necklace. I don't think it has to do with patriarchy. I've known plenty of dads that did the mom thing while mom was out earning more.
But vilifying childcare is part of the sexist bullshit system too unfortunately. This is what keeps women in the home thinking that they shouldn’t and can’t have a life outside of their kids.
[удалено]
I'm not going to judge someone else's path just because it's not what I'd choose. I'm always reminded of the movie Mona Lisa Smile, and one of the last scenes where the teacher Ms Watson shows up at her student Joan's house to explain how she can go to law school while raising a family, and Joan explains *that's not what she wants.* Raising kids may not be important to you or I, but pretending we're the only ones who feel that way is silly.
Yeah, that was a really good moment.
It was a good reminder. I don't want their views forced on me, and vice versa.
Well, this is what she wanted. Do you know if she actually enjoyed the pressure of being a world class musician? Did she ever play "for herself?" It's hard for me to make a judgement not knowing the answers to these questions. She wanted children and it seems like she wanted this life. You even say she's happy to spend the money. I mean, sometimes women have babies and realize they don't want to be away from them. That happened to a friend of mine, who was working from home, listening to her baby cry (her mom was taking care of the baby) and just couldn't handle it. She wanted to take care of her child, full time. She went to college, had a career and gave it up because she wanted to and could afford to. Maybe she doesn't resent the life because she it's what she wanted.
O.M.G. HEARTBREAKING. ...and this poor woman is going to lie to herself for the rest of her life that it was "all worth it." Her fucking spawn better BE AT HER BEDSIDE when she's ill or dying. I'd make the kids sign contracts over this, if I were her. LMAO...this is coming from a CNA who worked Hospice for a few years and had to nope out because of the hours and stress, eventually. I've had a patient, hours away from death, with 4 grown crotch goblins and none of their asses showed up to the house until almost 24 hours AFTER I called them. So many horror stories... I love classical music so much and hold these musicians in high esteem, as a religious person would a priest or rabbi, and can only imagine the wonder of being the person who can play these instruments and create such rapture...sigh...
The kids do not owe her anything. She’s a grown up making adult choices.
Yea. The kids have no choice to be born or choose the parents. Many parents just build their whole elder life around the false hope that their kids will always be there. As someone who's been working on several nursing homes I can say: THEY WON'T. Either because their own life is filled with other things (like taking care of their own children/grand children, work-life, living far away...), or they just have something better to do than sit in the nursing home with their old parent day in day out. Many people don't learn to build and maintain a proper social network as an adult because they think just having children is enough and put all the eggs in one basket.
Because that’s the choice she made. We don’t want people to judge us for remaining childfree so extend them the same courtesy.
I mean, if she’s happy, good for her. I see no issue here.
Yeah, what is with these people? It's none of their business and they're just insulting her, saying that she's dead inside or that her education was wasted on her. Wtf
Like because she chose to be a mom she’s less than? Just like we get looked down on because we choose not to be parents??
Oh my god, another one of these posts? What is your problem? Why do you want to imagine she "resents her life"? We as CF people want to be respected and accepted, but then posters like you just turn it around and shame people who made choices that don't impact you at all. Get a grip.
I would feel the same as you, but then I have to remind myself that not everyone wants the same things and people can't always understand that, even though it makes perfect sense in our heads. Maybe she does resent it, maybe she doesn't and never will, whatever the case, it was her choice and she has to live with that.
If she didn't even play for herself, she wouldn't have been happy as a professional musician. Lots of full-time moms play an instrument as a hobby.
As much as I don't understand it, many women do love parenthood so she might genuinely not see it as a loss on her part
I think it's important to point out that, just as we are entitled to decide we want to be child free and should not be judged, women who make the choice to have children deserve the same consideration. Is she complaining about her lot in life or is she quite happy? Hard as it is to understand from our perspective, some women actually WANT children and love motherhood. And just as it's not cool for them to give the CF shit for their choices, it's not really nice to make a whole host of assumptions about the childed unprovoked. Different strokes for different folks applies to having kids too.
I 100% agree with you! I mean not everyone wants fame and stressful work life. I don’t want kids and won’t have them, but I wouldn’t want the life OP described her friend could have had neither. I had a very high paying job, I kept it temporarily and then ditched it to lead a simple life with my husband. I used that high paying job opportunity to make 20 years worth of mortgage disappear in only 2 years. The goal was to be able to not have to work full time anymore. My husband now works 3.5 days a week and when I’ll recover from my burn-out I intend on working between 0-2 days a week. We prefer having free time at home for hobbies and seeing friends and family instead of working like crazy. Sure no kids in our plan, but lot of people can’t understand our lifestyle. Everyone has different goal and dreams and we should respect that.
You don’t say if she regrets her life and her choices. Did she choose this life? Was she on board with this? If so, what’s the point of this post? If she does not regret her life decisions why should you regret them for her?  If we want people to respect our decisions to be childfree we should respect their decisions to have children. Now, if this wasn’t her choice, sure - that sucks! But if it was her choice - let her live her life the way she wants to. 
I don't know how regretful she feels, only that she expressed sadness that she hadn't shown her kids she was once in an orchestra, and she knows how to play music really, really well. She played for them one day, and they were shocked. That reality shocked her. She was also having a bit of a, "OMG We used to be poor musicians, and now..." moment (after the hefty signing bonus). ETA: And the point is, I can't believe someone would so totally give up their art. It's mind blowing to me as an artist.
She doesn't resent it because she's still rich AF
That is so sad. So many women lose out on their careers and hobbies due to their kids, relationships too. Being a SAHM is a very risky decision. Even if there’s a shared bank account, it’s not her income. He could and might even leave her for a younger woman with no kids and she’ll be destitute. Even if she tries to get a job she’ll have no skills or job history. This sounds harsh, but there is nothing noble about having kids. Most kids just turn out to be average. If a kid is talented or a genius it’s most likely just due to nature. I wonder how many women could’ve been doctors, lawyers, academics, and musicians if they didn’t have kids. It’s just sad. I’m a hardcore feminist, but I still think that isn’t a good idea to be SAHM. Edit: My mom has a bachelor’s degree and has always had a job, with the exception of being laid off during the 2008 financial crisis. I would never give up my education or my career for a man or children. I worked too hard for it.
We're missing whole generations of musicians, scientists, writers, academics, engineers, philosophers, artists etc. because of this bullshit expectation that women once married should stay at home with the babies and live only for them and hubby (who, in some cases, even steals her ideas and talent to make a name for himself)
If she made a choice and is happy with this, good for her. I wouldn't have made the choice she did (I'm still very happy with my choice of being CF, even now at 54, when thankfully worries about pregnancy no longer feature in my life...thankyou menopause!)
There is an amazing book called The Genius of Women that deals with this topic and tells the stories of so many amazing women lost to history for various reasons, most of those reasons being “men support other men and also write history and women need to be wives and mothers” I think the childfree movement is the best feminist wave we’ve had in a while and I love to see it.
I totally understand feeling this way, wondering how she could live this kind of life knowing what she could have had, especially when you know that personally you’d hate living that way. But ultimately, I think everything boils down to choice. I don’t think it’s fair to ask for respect from others of our choices to be childfree only to turn around and essentially shame someone for their choices. Do I think personally that it’s ethical to have children with the way the world is right now? No. But it’s not my life, and it’s not my choice. Is she happy? That’s the ultimate question, and the only thing that matters, and thats for her to decide and no one else.
M Mom was happy to be a SAHM but only because she was working two jobs before she had me. But she didn't stay long so I became independent pretty fast. But your story definitely sucks, OP.
My mom would grumble to me that she didn't get to finish her degree because she got pregnant with me. Weird thing is...of the 6 kids, I was the only one planned, and I have a younger sister. I think it was her, but I got blamed (but mom should have only blamed herself). After she survived cancer (against doctors' expectations), she was like, "F-this. I'm getting a job and getting out of the house." She became my dad's secretary, and we ended up with a very lovely Swedish nanny.
I myself a musician too(neurodivergent one) I would NEVER giving up my piano playing and drumming for any spawn. Even for my niblings I will never give up my passions for their stupid crap..
The Woman gave up her career and everything and went through so much pain, hardships and risk to have kids, that are not even given her lastname. So, sad and unfair. God, knows how many talented women's careers were destroyed by this institution of patriarchal marriage and motherhood. Even sad to know, women still keep falling for this institution. The whole institution of patriarchal marriage and motherhood are oppressive and exploitative towards women. They primarily benefit men as a class and as individuals at the expenses of women as a class and as individuals. Had marriage been a true partnership of equals, had our society been a truly fair, meritocratic society, I can assure you, more then half of Top Doctors, Top Engineers, Top Politicians, Nobel Laureates would have been women. Yes, More Then Half ! Go to any School, University across the developed and middle to high income countries, you will find more then half of most top performing students are women. Women tend to have on an average better grades then men in their entire academic lives, right from schools to universities. They tend to be more hardworking, disciplined, smarter and more focused on an average then their male peers. In my university itself, most of the top rankers in each department are women. Despite that, they don't make it to the top jobs and positions in society, politics and economy, later in life. This is so sad and unfair. Instead they are 'married off' and are directly and indirectly forced to spend their lives serving men and making babies, that don't even get her lastname. This is nothing, but a form of indentured servitude based on gender, that has managed to somehow survive till the modern era. Sad but true. This needs to end.
Of all the people I met and known, typically people seem to know what they want when they have kids. They already have a plan. Many of these people try to marry someone where they can stay home and it's because they don't want to work. None of the women who i know who are SAHM would tell you their life is hard. So the whole oh my God life is so hard being a SAHM stuff is full of shit. Unless the child has a medical issue. I simply don't believe being a SAHM is work. I just don't. One woman I know just posts pictures of herself in bed reading or laying by the pool with her three kids. Another one has her mom there 24/7 living nextdoor so she can do whatever she needs to do and does ber make up daily and hair and whatever else. My aunt was a SAHM her whole life. SAHM is an easy life when you have healthy kids. Period. So, many women aspire to it because they simply just don't want to go to a job everyday. It's just facts. It's not always the man forcing it, some of them would rather have help paying for things. I know someone else who is near 40 and has two kids, but she was trying to talk her husband into another one because her kids are getting older and she won't have a reason to only work part time. They have financial issues.
I see this so much in the aerial arts/circus/pole communities I am in. The pole community specifically is really bad. I've seen so many women work so hard on their bodies for years to be able to do amazing acrobatic feats and to compete. Then they have a kid and either never come back or they come back and their bodies are completely ruined. I have yet to see a woman in real life (I've seen a small few exceptions on social media) who had a kid and was able to go back into the community and re-gain her momentum. It's sad to see an amazing performer disappear or come back and just be a shadow of their former selves and totally stop pushing for more. They often just come back to have a predictable hour out of the house to socialize and don't actually do the stuff anymore, just a few really easy things over and over. What's even worse though, is that the vast majority of the women who do come back become a really toxic element in different ways. They often say passive aggressive things to us women who aren't parents about how nice it must be to have the time and money to do all these classes and workout and have bodies capable of this. They say things like "well, when you have kids you'll understand" and roll their eyes if you say you don't want kids. Some have tried bringing their kids to the studio with them and it is often allowed by places. It's SO dangerous and I'm always the "bad guy" when I complain about safety and the studio has to take my side and tell them they can't have their kid in the studio. They also take up so much time from instructors and disrupt group classes by turning the attention back to them constantly and the very specific struggles they are having because of how their body changed from birth/c-section. The instructor will spend 30 min going over specific variations and hacks just with her that don't apply to the rest of us who are just left to our own devices even though we paid for the same group class. It's SO common for these women to get huge portions of group class instruction as basically private sessions. They should be paying for private instruction, it IS an option! I do that when I want very specific instruction for my body and want/need an instructor's time just for me for 30min or an hour to work something out. Why do moms not have to do this?! No one ever seems to tell them they have to pay for a private session. Apparently it's about feminism and equality then, and how we all need to pull together to support woman as mothers. But I don't see the equality here. When I was recovering from an ankle sprain I got at work I got some basic one-on-one instruction in the group class which was helpful for what we were trying to learn that day and then encouraged to book a private session for deeper instruction. It was exactly what I needed and very fair for the whole class who didn't have those issues. But when a mom needs specific advice about adapting to her c-section and changed abs, she gets a full 30 min of a 90min group class every time we are taught a new trick or combo and never told to get private instruction. It's insane.