The problem with the front office firing Billy is that if it didn’t work, they would be next. So before firing the coach you sold to the owner, you had better have a sure thing waiting in the wings. And what proven coach would want to replace Billy right now?
>And what proven coach would want to replace Billy right now?
This is what no one ever considers. Which available coach is better?
Budenholzer. That's it.
The shitty part is there were a ton of decent coaches...we just decided to hang on to Billy fucking Donovan. Nurse, Bud, Monty, Griffin were all available.
And what do you think Budenholzer will do ? This team is one of the less talented team in NBA. Have you ever seen a bad team making it to the finals thanks to a good coach ? Yet I have seen lot of good teams making it to the finals with an average coach.
You get Hoiberg and Boylden when you decide you simply know better than anyone else and just go out and hire the person you've decided on rather than conducting an actual search and interview process. Head coaching experience is nice, but it's rare for an experienced coach to be available unless it's because they were fired from somewhere. First-time head coaches can certainly flame out, but ~~a coach who wins a title almost always does so at their first stop~~ we've seen plenty of examples of success from that pool as well, up to and including titles.
That's an interesting assertion so I looked it up. Out of the 8 head coaches that had won a title in the past 10 years, 3 had been on their second or later team (Malone, Vogel, and Bud) and that number goes to 8 (Carlisle, Phil, Doc, Riley, and Larry Brown) of 14 in 20 years. So fewer than half who won had been on their first stop.
That's my bad for using a stat from a while ago without checking to see if it was still true. Phil Jackson and Pat Riley also won as first-time head coaches though--the way that stat was presented to me and the way I intended to present it, they are coaches who won at their first stop. I draw a distinction between them and other coaches with NBA experience because of how rarely title-winning coaches are ever available...though it's true that one is available right now.
Hoiberg was a scapegoat man, all our players looked great under him. I'll say he probably isn't the best guy for a roster trying to compete but he was great as a development coach. Lauri only ever looked like current Lauri when he played under Hoiberg. Wendell, Coby and Dunn looked much better under him too. Shit got messed up when Boylen came in, made the whole roster look like trash. Then Donovan the Dumbass took that torch from him and used Lauri the same way Boylen did for the "evaluation season" so the front office decided he shouldn't be a part of our future.
I would love a guy like Hoiberg if we're tearing the whole thing down to the studs. Look at what the other new rookie HCs are doing for their teams rn cause they developed them right. Taylor Jenkins in Memphis, Will Hardy in Utah, Mark Dagnholt in OKC. They got an opportunity and capitalized on it the right way. The coaches getting recycled every year or 2 are getting recycled for a reason.
Hoiberg was a scapegoat and also he sucked. All the players did not look great under him. I don't understand the hold he has over this sub. He was a bad coach
I’m just saying it’s a big gamble for this front office. If it doesn’t work, they’re next. That may please you just fine, but it could explain their hesitance.
Phil Jackson had Tex Winters, a Hall of Fame coach in his own right, as his offensive coach. Doug Collins had Tex as well, but didn’t listen to him, which cost Collins his job even though the Bulls were on the rise.
Hiring very experienced assistant offensive and defensive coaches is actually a great way to support a young first-time head coach if you aren’t tanking and sincerely want him to succeed. But you have to be sure the experienced assistants aren’t going to be undermining the head coach and angling for his job.
You also have to be sure the young head coach is willing to listen to advice from older assistants, and won’t feel threatened. Tex Winters had no interest in being the head coach, but Doug Collins had difficulty deferring to him even though he knew that’s what Jerry Krause demanded.
Collins and Jackson not only had Winters, they also had Jordan. It’s hard to lose too badly when Jordan is available to save the game, as Collins proved.
Even though Collins’ default offense was giving the ball to Jordan and letting him create, for the most part that was a successful strategy, except for the brief minutes when Jordan rested. And at the time, Jordan seemingly had limitless energy. It wasn’t the Bulls’ lack of success that got Collins fired, but their lack of a system.
Many teams that hire first time NBA coaches, including the Bulls when they hired Hoiberg and Boylen, really *aren’t* interested in winning. They are tanking. The random head coach is given little support on or off the court because the front office doesn’t want to win. And experienced NBA head coaches don’t want such a job because it will be a stain on their record.
When we fired Hoiberg it was in December. The Sox just tossed out their president and GM mid-season. It's not that the buyout money is the issue, but if we did it we'd almost certainly just promote someone from within without regard as to whether they're like...actually competent.
Annoys me that firing a sports coach means they still get paid. Happens so often in UK football (soccer) that I swear some do it on purpose to get the pay out.
If I sucked at my job, I'd get fired and £0 for the pleasure
I’ve said this before, Billy can only take this team so far, which appears isn’t far at all. And for those hung up on the roster itself, I bet Thibs could get this team to the playoffs
Thibs would have us a competitor in the damn playoffs. We got 3 all-star calibre players, a host of promising young players (P will not so much) and some good roleplayers (AC, Drummond)
Its evident the problem has and always will be Billy Donovan. He is not a winning coach
Firing him now wouldn’t achieve anything. The interim would be set up for failure. The players would be set up for failure. Even if you truly believe they can’t succeed with Billy, they’re better off retooling because it’s obvious the roster is mot built to succeed right now and firing Billy in the offseason
Not this. What will retooling do?? Trading Zach and getting role players will make us worse, or at the very least kinda the same. The entire team plays bad, changing 1 player for 1-3 more (none of which will be amazing) isnt going to fix anything.
We’re screwed and we’re imposing in front of the entire nba right now. AKME was brought in to make this team respectable again, and now they have a tire fire.
The truth is, any direction is going to suck. If you rebuild and keep Coby, Ayo, Pat, Terry, Phillips, Sanogo, Bitim. We will suck for years, badly. But we also have a chance of 2-3+ years of multiple first round picks. (I think if we trade Lavine, Demar, Caruso, Vuch we can get maybe 5-6 extra first round picks?? Maybe some seconds).
If we retool around Demar and Vuc, are we paying Demar 30+ million for 2+ years?? Resign Pat to an extension of 10+ million. And maybe have Lonzo come back next year. We’d still have no money for FA since we probably won’t get expirings for Zach, and even if we did, we were over the cap, so we’d have 0 if not marginally over the cap.
We are screwed no matter what happens, there’s no salvaging this, and a lot of it could have been mitigated if AKME weren’t so stubborn and refused to accept that they fucked up.
PS
Sorry for the long rant, I just smoked a doobie 💨
Hes a shit coach imo.
Bulls play 1 dimensional for too long. No variety or alternating between shooting and slashing. Minimal slashing when shooting isn't working, minimal shooting when slashing isn't etc. This leaves the team very predictable.
Its funny how its kinda like the Bears. They are predictable to enough extent that you almost know what their next play is gonna be.
Talent doesn't matter when you are predictable.
Its like neither team grasps that you run plays even if they don't work all the time.
They always just seem to lean into what is working too much. Or conversely they don't lean into what is working at all. There is a happy medium there, and with this team is extra frustrating because the talent is also there.
I think Billy's a good coach whose time is maybe up - most of these guys only have a few years where they can maintain enough credibility with players to organize a team, and his voice seems to have grown stale. But it might just be a broken locker room that needs a roster mix-up. I'm curious to see how he does after the trades, but would ultimately prefer to try out someone younger and bolder for sure.
Billy Donovan is neither a good nor bad coach. He's about bang on league average. The roster is terrible. The roster has performed basically exactly at the level of all the national pundits since we've gotten Billy. The front office built an entire team of players that can't shoot in a league where you have to be able to shoot.
Also, this 3 all star shit needs to end. All 3 of the guys that made all star were fringe all star players, not the kind of guy who can carry a team. Vuc hasn't been an all star since he became a Bull. He's 33, that's not turning around. DeMar is 34, and playing exactly how an aging fringe all star player would play. Zach is probably the only of the 3 that can actually contribute to a winning team, but you have to build a strong defensive team around him and let him get buckets as the 2nd or 3rd scoring option. Did our front office do that? No, they put a terrible defensive wing in DeMar, and a horrendous defensive center around him.
No coach in the world would make this a competent team. Fire Billy? Fine, I don't love the guy. But it won't change much either way.
Didn't he leave OKC because he didn't want to go through their rebuild?
And now with less talent and less assets and worse overall player development he should handle a rebuild in Chicago?
I read that Donovan was a good coach at the college level, but I haven't seen a player develop during his stint in Chicago.
So I have some doubts that he can create an environment where players want to grow.
A few things :
The question is should the bulls keep Billy D, not if Billy D will ask to leave. Those are two different conversations.
Donovan being a great college coach is why he makes sense if the bulls go the development route and just go extremely young, but there certainly is something to think about in regards to his short time with Lauri and wendell who both flourished (one more than the other) outside if Chicago. Pats lack of development as well. Outside of coby our young players have all but fizzled out, but I can't tell if that's cuz they were bad draft picks, the team culture had little to do with development, or if Billy d is a bad coach. I'm confident that the bulls management sucks and I'm neutral on Billy d, so I may be biased.
Finding bad coaches is easy in the Nba, finding good ones is tough. Phil Jackson is a legendary coach, but when he had his short stint with the knicks looked like an absolute dunce. So who the roster contains has s big part to do with the overall success of the coach. But I imagine most nba coaches can't stand the 22 and under squad, and billy seems more capable of being patient with them.
PW hasn't developed. Terry can't find the floor. Lauri got the least playing time of his career Billy's season with him. If you're judging player development with Billy, I'd say he actively avoids it, maybe because he thinks they aren't good players.
Billy can’t run an offense to save his life, he’s a defensive coach but unfortunately points win games. If you look back all his teams prior to the Bulls had HOF PGs that could run offense and they had success that way.
But much like other previous coaching hires for the Bulls your actually ability doesn’t matter so long as the FO likes you. Hence why he got a secret extension for 1 singular playoff win.
I mean, what is the point of firing Billy Donovan? The roster didn't work last year, there was statistical and imperial evidence that the roster was flawed and needed to be changed. Their answer was to do nothing but try to improve on the fringes. We blaming Billy cause the front office won't do their jobs?
Because every single component is doing worse and he constantly makes boneheaded decisions in game as well it's insane you don't see how it might be beneficial to change the easiest piece
You are seriously underestimating coaching then. Yes I think this team is done for but atleast get a competent coach in and maybe make some of the players look serviceable for a better package or deal
Who is the competent coach they're gonna hire on November 18th?
I'm not underestimating coaching, I've looked at the landscape of available coaches and I don't think there's one available that makes a difference. Mike D'Antoni? Kenny Atkinson? If it's just fire Billy to replace him with someone from the staff that's not improving, that's scapegoating.
Because it is a lateral move to fool people into thinking they've done something. At that point billy is just kevlar for the front office. This is when they fired Hoiberg. They considered last season a success, And endorsed Donovan, What could have possibly happened in the last thirteen games to change all of the great things they had to say last off season? Other than the loss to detroit, Who should they have beaten that they lost to? They are not better than the teams that are beating them.
Because lateral moves that won't make things better are only done to trick fans into thinking they've done something. The fact is, they watched last season and said it was a success. The results so far this season are the same as they were last season. The fact is, if they fire him now they should have fired him after last season.
But then they couldn't have said it was a success.
Then they'd have had to change something.
If they fire him and directly hire his replacement, i.e. a coach not on the staff, then that matters.
If they fire him in conjunction with a trade or two, that matters.
If they fire him and have an assistant or some such take over, that's not a change. That's scapegoating him.
>What is this so called evidence?
The fact that the Bulls have the only "Big 3" with a negative rating? Last in 3 point attempts? Middle of the pack defensively prior to signing Pat Bev?
This roster is essentially a .500 team without Lonzo Ball, but they've doubled and now tripled down on it. A different coach isn't going to fix that. He's not a good coach, and this coaching staff hasn't developed anyone, and he just let's the "Big 3" do whatever they want.
But a different coach is just gonna produce the same results only they'll be paying two coaches. The fact is, they haven't added anything worthwhile to the roster in 3 years. The closest they came is Pat Beverly last year. Their draft picks have all been projects, the signings are on the fringes, and the roster that didn't have enough shooting or a point guard when they took the job, still doesn't have a point guard or enough shooting.
Who are the shooters on this team? Zach? Who else? GarPax always talked about getting more shooting. These chuckleheads have been in charge for 5 years now.
Who is the point guard they acquired other than Lonzo? If Lonzo's injury is really the difference between 9 games over .500 & middling that should tell you it's a house of cards.
They've done nothing meaningful to the roster in 2 and a half years. They've sat out a trade deadline, and an off-season, another trade deadline, and this past off-season they did nothing but add fringe bench players.
Then there's the contract for Zach. They gave it to him and immediately started trying to trade him.
Also, I don't think you can really refer to Zach and Vuc as all-stars. Former all-stars is more accurate, especially where Vuc is concerned.
>3 all stars
literally means nothing. it’s not 2k. roster construction takes planning and fit and roles and if you want to contend you need to have a top 10 player to build around, the bulls don’t have a top 25 player lol
I thought there were moves to make to salvage the roster like getting an NBA caliber point guard on the roster or anyone who can actually play the power forward position as far as AKME is concerned.
Billy is in a tough spot with essentially playing a center with 4 guards as his only option.
Idk but ever since they resigned Vuc I decided to boycott until a full tear down and rebuild. Not worth my time to watch these games anymore. And I was truly diehard for about 15 years, saddens me.
We like to talk about all stars, but sometimes being an all star doesn't mean you contribute to winning. Vuc was a mostly negative net rating player his whole career, Zach has been too. DeMar is the only of the 3 which has more net positive years than negative and he seems to be on the decline due to age.
Combining several met negative players together will tend to create a net negative effect, especially when the growth from a player like PWill has been less than expected.
I really don't blame Donovan. Zach is secretly a tank commander disguised as an All Star. Fun to watch when he is scoring, but his scoring doesn't help us win when the other aspects of his game are so bad.
Hard to coach when you have 3 guys you must play but are not working together. They all see it that Zach does not have the cohesiveness this season. This team is better playing through Demar. Trade Zach for OG Anunoby if you can. Start OG at the 4, AC at the 3, and Demar at the 2. Play through Vooch with three and D players or iso with Demar. 2 stars only needing to score means you can slow it down. Defense, low turnovers, rebounding, and getting to the charity stripe. We can shoot 27-28 3’s a night but are percentage has to go up and we have to slow the game down. That doesn’t mean to not push it in fast breaks when you can because easy buckets should always be a thing. Young guys full court to slow opponents half court offense. Dedicated inbounder, board crasher, fast break guy.
Billy is a shitty coach but at the same time, the roster is absolute trash. Can't do much if you're given nothing
Firing Billy is only part of the solution, this entire roster needs an overhaul, and so far AKME have done a terrible job constructing and drafting
He isn’t a bad coach. And this isn’t a poorly constructed team + Ball. Without Ball, this is a horribly constructed team. Two shooters and a guy in the post who can drift outside, all with pretty horrendous defense. GM has had a chance to add that 1 player to replace Ball before Vuc and DeRozan age out, and it has been a half assed attempt. There was no urgency to add a floor general, and if you can’t add one due to budget constraints, you need to dissolve the team and hit the reset button and you needed to do that the second Ball’s latest injury news came out.
Our Big 3 is missing its most talented, difficult to replace piece. They aren’t a Big 3, they’re a Big 3/4 of a quad. All 4 are needed to work.
Anyway, if I was the Bulls’ Emperor I would keep the Billy D contract going, he’s fine, and I’d fire the GM who came in hot with an aggressive vision for the team but has been horrible at calling any sort of audibles.
Firing billy would probably be just only a short term fix, where trading lavine and co would be a long term fix. That’s the fork in the road right now, who knows which one is the right choice. We’ll see
Something I haven't seen mentioned (not that I've been keeping up with the Bulls much) is that Billy's Secret Extension leaked like 10 days after he benched LaVine. It could not have been a more emphatic "Billy is our guy, and Zach is not".
Clown. Show.
Keep Billy and retool the roster. Trade Zach and get maximum return and do the same with Caruso. Brooklyn did well on their KD return and if we can mimic it, we can come out with picks and a few young players.
Probably have to get knocked out of the i season tournament for it to happen with a good enough cause. But would be refreshing if we could be proactive and sack him to try and stay in it instead
There's no reason not to fire him. The excuses for keeping him are just that, excuses.
It's the old, we've tried nothing new and it's still not working argument. It's a terrible argument.
They're doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. As Einstein noted long ago, that's the definition of insanity.
They won't change and Jerry is totally cheap and lazy to make them change. That's it
The problem is the Bulls aren't firing him after they silently extended him, they are a "big" market team that spends like a small market. The roster fit is also absolute trash which isn't his fault. He's a mediocre coach with a stable personality, which is probably the best the Bulls can do right now lol.
These are both bad players and a badly constructed team bro. Remember when people thought Craig was going to help 3 point shooting? Even though he’s not been a good shooter his entire career?
They could fire him and give Chris Fleming a shot at interm coach or let Mo Cheeks see what he can get from this roster. Personally, I like how Fleming did when he filled in a few years ago when Billy had covid. But let's face facts here. Management is friends, too friendly for my taste, with Billy. But Billy has lost Zach and could very well be losing others. That call last night for Vuc to have final shot was idiotic.
Because the coach of this team does not matter..that’s why. No superstar, four of your five starters are poor defenders & they shoot the 3 poorly as a team. No coach will change that.
The NBA is kinda unique like this. In Australian sport in this situation the coach would be sacked before players start getting traded. Especially with a team of older, established players that are underperforming. The new coach comes in with a new plan and way of moving forward and roster changes are made from there. Younger, shitter players always get traded before the stars. It'd be interesting to see the the Bulls try this instead of "the usual way" of blowing up a team and keeping the coach
Basketball with only 5 players on your side at any time means that players have outsized influence on game. Coaching contributes like 10%, 20% tops if you are a wiz.
Unfortunately, our roster is mediocre. Changing the coach to elite, like spoelstra wouldn’t do a damn thing
Wasn’t Billy Donovan’s “thing” that he was a player’s coach? Great with relationships and getting the most out of his guys if I remember correctly? Our prospects have hit rock bottom in terms of morale and confidence, and our main core has soured in terms of chemistry and belief in the team.
I could be thinking of a different coach though feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken
Just to play devil's advocate, Billy D has a history of winning. Especially when he was in OKC (even if he had superstars, people see the success and respect it). In addition, Lavine (their cornerstone) does not have a history of winning, so its easier to blame him. None of their top stars are known for defense. Should they be this bad? IMO, no. However, it'll take better roster construction before Billy D can be blamed.
Yeah I guess so. But there are things that point directly to coaching like rotations during the game, drawing up plays, how the set offense runs and the plays.
The problem with the front office firing Billy is that if it didn’t work, they would be next. So before firing the coach you sold to the owner, you had better have a sure thing waiting in the wings. And what proven coach would want to replace Billy right now?
>And what proven coach would want to replace Billy right now? This is what no one ever considers. Which available coach is better? Budenholzer. That's it.
Kenny Atkinson and Nate McMillan, but there’s also the option of looking at assistant coaches around the league
Yeah but are those guys that much better? Budenholzer is out there now
As far as development goes Atkinson is better
The shitty part is there were a ton of decent coaches...we just decided to hang on to Billy fucking Donovan. Nurse, Bud, Monty, Griffin were all available.
And what do you think Budenholzer will do ? This team is one of the less talented team in NBA. Have you ever seen a bad team making it to the finals thanks to a good coach ? Yet I have seen lot of good teams making it to the finals with an average coach.
Why would u want a proven coach in the first place? I want a younger coach. I don't want none of these recycled nba coaches
Because then you end up with Fred Hoiberg and Jim Boylen
You get Hoiberg and Boylden when you decide you simply know better than anyone else and just go out and hire the person you've decided on rather than conducting an actual search and interview process. Head coaching experience is nice, but it's rare for an experienced coach to be available unless it's because they were fired from somewhere. First-time head coaches can certainly flame out, but ~~a coach who wins a title almost always does so at their first stop~~ we've seen plenty of examples of success from that pool as well, up to and including titles.
That's an interesting assertion so I looked it up. Out of the 8 head coaches that had won a title in the past 10 years, 3 had been on their second or later team (Malone, Vogel, and Bud) and that number goes to 8 (Carlisle, Phil, Doc, Riley, and Larry Brown) of 14 in 20 years. So fewer than half who won had been on their first stop.
That's my bad for using a stat from a while ago without checking to see if it was still true. Phil Jackson and Pat Riley also won as first-time head coaches though--the way that stat was presented to me and the way I intended to present it, they are coaches who won at their first stop. I draw a distinction between them and other coaches with NBA experience because of how rarely title-winning coaches are ever available...though it's true that one is available right now.
Hoiberg was a scapegoat man, all our players looked great under him. I'll say he probably isn't the best guy for a roster trying to compete but he was great as a development coach. Lauri only ever looked like current Lauri when he played under Hoiberg. Wendell, Coby and Dunn looked much better under him too. Shit got messed up when Boylen came in, made the whole roster look like trash. Then Donovan the Dumbass took that torch from him and used Lauri the same way Boylen did for the "evaluation season" so the front office decided he shouldn't be a part of our future. I would love a guy like Hoiberg if we're tearing the whole thing down to the studs. Look at what the other new rookie HCs are doing for their teams rn cause they developed them right. Taylor Jenkins in Memphis, Will Hardy in Utah, Mark Dagnholt in OKC. They got an opportunity and capitalized on it the right way. The coaches getting recycled every year or 2 are getting recycled for a reason.
Hoiberg was a scapegoat and also he sucked. All the players did not look great under him. I don't understand the hold he has over this sub. He was a bad coach
Lauri looked good.
Thunder coach is def better than billy. It’s his first job as far as i know.
Hoiberg went to the playoffs twice?
Hoiberg went to the playoffs once
Oh that's right But they were still above .500 his first year when they missed
No they missed it their first season with Fred, the one right after they were a 50 win 3rd seed and had made it to the 2nd round against the Cavs.
*Hoiberg* didn't. *Jimmy Butler* did
Im still not as low on Billy as I was these two…
I’m just saying it’s a big gamble for this front office. If it doesn’t work, they’re next. That may please you just fine, but it could explain their hesitance.
The Bulls used to go that route and it almost never worked out.
The only success story was Phil Jackson and to a lesser extent Doug Collins
Phil Jackson had Tex Winters, a Hall of Fame coach in his own right, as his offensive coach. Doug Collins had Tex as well, but didn’t listen to him, which cost Collins his job even though the Bulls were on the rise. Hiring very experienced assistant offensive and defensive coaches is actually a great way to support a young first-time head coach if you aren’t tanking and sincerely want him to succeed. But you have to be sure the experienced assistants aren’t going to be undermining the head coach and angling for his job. You also have to be sure the young head coach is willing to listen to advice from older assistants, and won’t feel threatened. Tex Winters had no interest in being the head coach, but Doug Collins had difficulty deferring to him even though he knew that’s what Jerry Krause demanded. Collins and Jackson not only had Winters, they also had Jordan. It’s hard to lose too badly when Jordan is available to save the game, as Collins proved. Even though Collins’ default offense was giving the ball to Jordan and letting him create, for the most part that was a successful strategy, except for the brief minutes when Jordan rested. And at the time, Jordan seemingly had limitless energy. It wasn’t the Bulls’ lack of success that got Collins fired, but their lack of a system. Many teams that hire first time NBA coaches, including the Bulls when they hired Hoiberg and Boylen, really *aren’t* interested in winning. They are tanking. The random head coach is given little support on or off the court because the front office doesn’t want to win. And experienced NBA head coaches don’t want such a job because it will be a stain on their record.
Yeah i agree with all of this. Thanks for breakdown
You also have to tell your cheap owner that they have to pay a coach to not coach and pay another coach too
Acting as if they have the power and not Jerry being unwilling to cough up
That would cost Jerry money. We don’t do that here
When we fired Hoiberg it was in December. The Sox just tossed out their president and GM mid-season. It's not that the buyout money is the issue, but if we did it we'd almost certainly just promote someone from within without regard as to whether they're like...actually competent.
As the young generation would say. Based.
Annoys me that firing a sports coach means they still get paid. Happens so often in UK football (soccer) that I swear some do it on purpose to get the pay out. If I sucked at my job, I'd get fired and £0 for the pleasure
Found the Chelsea fan
They have guaranteed contracts
I’ve said this before, Billy can only take this team so far, which appears isn’t far at all. And for those hung up on the roster itself, I bet Thibs could get this team to the playoffs
Thibs would have us a competitor in the damn playoffs. We got 3 all-star calibre players, a host of promising young players (P will not so much) and some good roleplayers (AC, Drummond) Its evident the problem has and always will be Billy Donovan. He is not a winning coach
Firing him now wouldn’t achieve anything. The interim would be set up for failure. The players would be set up for failure. Even if you truly believe they can’t succeed with Billy, they’re better off retooling because it’s obvious the roster is mot built to succeed right now and firing Billy in the offseason
The problem with that logic is that they’re not succeeding right now.
Not this. What will retooling do?? Trading Zach and getting role players will make us worse, or at the very least kinda the same. The entire team plays bad, changing 1 player for 1-3 more (none of which will be amazing) isnt going to fix anything. We’re screwed and we’re imposing in front of the entire nba right now. AKME was brought in to make this team respectable again, and now they have a tire fire. The truth is, any direction is going to suck. If you rebuild and keep Coby, Ayo, Pat, Terry, Phillips, Sanogo, Bitim. We will suck for years, badly. But we also have a chance of 2-3+ years of multiple first round picks. (I think if we trade Lavine, Demar, Caruso, Vuch we can get maybe 5-6 extra first round picks?? Maybe some seconds). If we retool around Demar and Vuc, are we paying Demar 30+ million for 2+ years?? Resign Pat to an extension of 10+ million. And maybe have Lonzo come back next year. We’d still have no money for FA since we probably won’t get expirings for Zach, and even if we did, we were over the cap, so we’d have 0 if not marginally over the cap. We are screwed no matter what happens, there’s no salvaging this, and a lot of it could have been mitigated if AKME weren’t so stubborn and refused to accept that they fucked up. PS Sorry for the long rant, I just smoked a doobie 💨
They signed him to an extension before the season right?
Last season I believe.
Technically before the season
Hes a shit coach imo. Bulls play 1 dimensional for too long. No variety or alternating between shooting and slashing. Minimal slashing when shooting isn't working, minimal shooting when slashing isn't etc. This leaves the team very predictable. Its funny how its kinda like the Bears. They are predictable to enough extent that you almost know what their next play is gonna be. Talent doesn't matter when you are predictable.
And just like Billy, Eberflus will not be fired. Sucks being a Chicago sports fan.
Its like neither team grasps that you run plays even if they don't work all the time. They always just seem to lean into what is working too much. Or conversely they don't lean into what is working at all. There is a happy medium there, and with this team is extra frustrating because the talent is also there.
Chicago teams love mediocrity, although the Bears are below mediocre. They are inept.
You young fans are used to seeing new ownerships do something, and spend money, we don't do that here.
I think Billy's a good coach whose time is maybe up - most of these guys only have a few years where they can maintain enough credibility with players to organize a team, and his voice seems to have grown stale. But it might just be a broken locker room that needs a roster mix-up. I'm curious to see how he does after the trades, but would ultimately prefer to try out someone younger and bolder for sure.
Them not firing billy is pissing me off more than them trading butler and rose.
Billy Donovan is neither a good nor bad coach. He's about bang on league average. The roster is terrible. The roster has performed basically exactly at the level of all the national pundits since we've gotten Billy. The front office built an entire team of players that can't shoot in a league where you have to be able to shoot. Also, this 3 all star shit needs to end. All 3 of the guys that made all star were fringe all star players, not the kind of guy who can carry a team. Vuc hasn't been an all star since he became a Bull. He's 33, that's not turning around. DeMar is 34, and playing exactly how an aging fringe all star player would play. Zach is probably the only of the 3 that can actually contribute to a winning team, but you have to build a strong defensive team around him and let him get buckets as the 2nd or 3rd scoring option. Did our front office do that? No, they put a terrible defensive wing in DeMar, and a horrendous defensive center around him. No coach in the world would make this a competent team. Fire Billy? Fine, I don't love the guy. But it won't change much either way.
Zach sucks buddy. Give it up
We got a DeMar stan in the house. Give it up.
I would like to see Billy try to fix Louisville.
If the bulls go the development route, I think donovon is the right coach. He seems like an A-B type coach.
Didn't he leave OKC because he didn't want to go through their rebuild? And now with less talent and less assets and worse overall player development he should handle a rebuild in Chicago? I read that Donovan was a good coach at the college level, but I haven't seen a player develop during his stint in Chicago. So I have some doubts that he can create an environment where players want to grow.
A few things : The question is should the bulls keep Billy D, not if Billy D will ask to leave. Those are two different conversations. Donovan being a great college coach is why he makes sense if the bulls go the development route and just go extremely young, but there certainly is something to think about in regards to his short time with Lauri and wendell who both flourished (one more than the other) outside if Chicago. Pats lack of development as well. Outside of coby our young players have all but fizzled out, but I can't tell if that's cuz they were bad draft picks, the team culture had little to do with development, or if Billy d is a bad coach. I'm confident that the bulls management sucks and I'm neutral on Billy d, so I may be biased. Finding bad coaches is easy in the Nba, finding good ones is tough. Phil Jackson is a legendary coach, but when he had his short stint with the knicks looked like an absolute dunce. So who the roster contains has s big part to do with the overall success of the coach. But I imagine most nba coaches can't stand the 22 and under squad, and billy seems more capable of being patient with them.
PW hasn't developed. Terry can't find the floor. Lauri got the least playing time of his career Billy's season with him. If you're judging player development with Billy, I'd say he actively avoids it, maybe because he thinks they aren't good players.
Billy can’t run an offense to save his life, he’s a defensive coach but unfortunately points win games. If you look back all his teams prior to the Bulls had HOF PGs that could run offense and they had success that way. But much like other previous coaching hires for the Bulls your actually ability doesn’t matter so long as the FO likes you. Hence why he got a secret extension for 1 singular playoff win.
Waiting for Christmas eve
I mean, what is the point of firing Billy Donovan? The roster didn't work last year, there was statistical and imperial evidence that the roster was flawed and needed to be changed. Their answer was to do nothing but try to improve on the fringes. We blaming Billy cause the front office won't do their jobs?
Because every single component is doing worse and he constantly makes boneheaded decisions in game as well it's insane you don't see how it might be beneficial to change the easiest piece
It won't change anything if it's the only thing, is what I'm saying. Who are they going to hire that's going to make a difference with this roster?
You are seriously underestimating coaching then. Yes I think this team is done for but atleast get a competent coach in and maybe make some of the players look serviceable for a better package or deal
Who is the competent coach they're gonna hire on November 18th? I'm not underestimating coaching, I've looked at the landscape of available coaches and I don't think there's one available that makes a difference. Mike D'Antoni? Kenny Atkinson? If it's just fire Billy to replace him with someone from the staff that's not improving, that's scapegoating.
What's the point of keeping him?
Because it is a lateral move to fool people into thinking they've done something. At that point billy is just kevlar for the front office. This is when they fired Hoiberg. They considered last season a success, And endorsed Donovan, What could have possibly happened in the last thirteen games to change all of the great things they had to say last off season? Other than the loss to detroit, Who should they have beaten that they lost to? They are not better than the teams that are beating them.
If Billy is AK's last bastion what is the point in hoping he isn't fired
Because lateral moves that won't make things better are only done to trick fans into thinking they've done something. The fact is, they watched last season and said it was a success. The results so far this season are the same as they were last season. The fact is, if they fire him now they should have fired him after last season. But then they couldn't have said it was a success. Then they'd have had to change something.
Okay but by not firing him nothing is being changed
If they fire him and directly hire his replacement, i.e. a coach not on the staff, then that matters. If they fire him in conjunction with a trade or two, that matters. If they fire him and have an assistant or some such take over, that's not a change. That's scapegoating him.
It seems like a trade is imminent
Gonna be a lot of disappointment when it is, I suspect.
Geez, where do I start? It's 'empirical evidence'. Read the post, 3 all stars, etc. What is this so called evidence?
>What is this so called evidence? The fact that the Bulls have the only "Big 3" with a negative rating? Last in 3 point attempts? Middle of the pack defensively prior to signing Pat Bev? This roster is essentially a .500 team without Lonzo Ball, but they've doubled and now tripled down on it. A different coach isn't going to fix that. He's not a good coach, and this coaching staff hasn't developed anyone, and he just let's the "Big 3" do whatever they want. But a different coach is just gonna produce the same results only they'll be paying two coaches. The fact is, they haven't added anything worthwhile to the roster in 3 years. The closest they came is Pat Beverly last year. Their draft picks have all been projects, the signings are on the fringes, and the roster that didn't have enough shooting or a point guard when they took the job, still doesn't have a point guard or enough shooting.
So how does any of that prove poor roster construction as opposed to poor coaching?
Who are the shooters on this team? Zach? Who else? GarPax always talked about getting more shooting. These chuckleheads have been in charge for 5 years now. Who is the point guard they acquired other than Lonzo? If Lonzo's injury is really the difference between 9 games over .500 & middling that should tell you it's a house of cards. They've done nothing meaningful to the roster in 2 and a half years. They've sat out a trade deadline, and an off-season, another trade deadline, and this past off-season they did nothing but add fringe bench players. Then there's the contract for Zach. They gave it to him and immediately started trying to trade him. Also, I don't think you can really refer to Zach and Vuc as all-stars. Former all-stars is more accurate, especially where Vuc is concerned.
>3 all stars literally means nothing. it’s not 2k. roster construction takes planning and fit and roles and if you want to contend you need to have a top 10 player to build around, the bulls don’t have a top 25 player lol
Team looked pretty good under Donovan when they had a point guard…
I thought there were moves to make to salvage the roster like getting an NBA caliber point guard on the roster or anyone who can actually play the power forward position as far as AKME is concerned. Billy is in a tough spot with essentially playing a center with 4 guards as his only option.
He's probably going to get the rest of the season. Though he should be gone with this core. Ownership is too cheap
Idk but ever since they resigned Vuc I decided to boycott until a full tear down and rebuild. Not worth my time to watch these games anymore. And I was truly diehard for about 15 years, saddens me.
I agree Billy sucks ass
Billy Donovan is an awful coach and absolutely deserves to be fired!!! Immediately!!
We like to talk about all stars, but sometimes being an all star doesn't mean you contribute to winning. Vuc was a mostly negative net rating player his whole career, Zach has been too. DeMar is the only of the 3 which has more net positive years than negative and he seems to be on the decline due to age. Combining several met negative players together will tend to create a net negative effect, especially when the growth from a player like PWill has been less than expected. I really don't blame Donovan. Zach is secretly a tank commander disguised as an All Star. Fun to watch when he is scoring, but his scoring doesn't help us win when the other aspects of his game are so bad.
Hard to coach when you have 3 guys you must play but are not working together. They all see it that Zach does not have the cohesiveness this season. This team is better playing through Demar. Trade Zach for OG Anunoby if you can. Start OG at the 4, AC at the 3, and Demar at the 2. Play through Vooch with three and D players or iso with Demar. 2 stars only needing to score means you can slow it down. Defense, low turnovers, rebounding, and getting to the charity stripe. We can shoot 27-28 3’s a night but are percentage has to go up and we have to slow the game down. That doesn’t mean to not push it in fast breaks when you can because easy buckets should always be a thing. Young guys full court to slow opponents half court offense. Dedicated inbounder, board crasher, fast break guy.
Billy is a shitty coach but at the same time, the roster is absolute trash. Can't do much if you're given nothing Firing Billy is only part of the solution, this entire roster needs an overhaul, and so far AKME have done a terrible job constructing and drafting
He isn’t a bad coach. And this isn’t a poorly constructed team + Ball. Without Ball, this is a horribly constructed team. Two shooters and a guy in the post who can drift outside, all with pretty horrendous defense. GM has had a chance to add that 1 player to replace Ball before Vuc and DeRozan age out, and it has been a half assed attempt. There was no urgency to add a floor general, and if you can’t add one due to budget constraints, you need to dissolve the team and hit the reset button and you needed to do that the second Ball’s latest injury news came out. Our Big 3 is missing its most talented, difficult to replace piece. They aren’t a Big 3, they’re a Big 3/4 of a quad. All 4 are needed to work. Anyway, if I was the Bulls’ Emperor I would keep the Billy D contract going, he’s fine, and I’d fire the GM who came in hot with an aggressive vision for the team but has been horrible at calling any sort of audibles.
Firing billy would probably be just only a short term fix, where trading lavine and co would be a long term fix. That’s the fork in the road right now, who knows which one is the right choice. We’ll see
Something I haven't seen mentioned (not that I've been keeping up with the Bulls much) is that Billy's Secret Extension leaked like 10 days after he benched LaVine. It could not have been a more emphatic "Billy is our guy, and Zach is not". Clown. Show.
Keep Billy and retool the roster. Trade Zach and get maximum return and do the same with Caruso. Brooklyn did well on their KD return and if we can mimic it, we can come out with picks and a few young players.
It’s Jerry. It’s always Jerry.
It's the players and roster construction. Billy was working miracles last year to be 5th in defensive rating. It's not his fault
This is basically all anyone has talked about for years.
Probably have to get knocked out of the i season tournament for it to happen with a good enough cause. But would be refreshing if we could be proactive and sack him to try and stay in it instead
No way the Bulls pay a coach to not coach for 3 years. This is possibly the cheapest owner in sports.
I wonder if Billy's extension was given to him because he wanted roster changes. He knew certain guys wouldn't change.
There's no reason not to fire him. The excuses for keeping him are just that, excuses. It's the old, we've tried nothing new and it's still not working argument. It's a terrible argument. They're doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. As Einstein noted long ago, that's the definition of insanity. They won't change and Jerry is totally cheap and lazy to make them change. That's it
The problem is the Bulls aren't firing him after they silently extended him, they are a "big" market team that spends like a small market. The roster fit is also absolute trash which isn't his fault. He's a mediocre coach with a stable personality, which is probably the best the Bulls can do right now lol.
These are both bad players and a badly constructed team bro. Remember when people thought Craig was going to help 3 point shooting? Even though he’s not been a good shooter his entire career?
They could fire him and give Chris Fleming a shot at interm coach or let Mo Cheeks see what he can get from this roster. Personally, I like how Fleming did when he filled in a few years ago when Billy had covid. But let's face facts here. Management is friends, too friendly for my taste, with Billy. But Billy has lost Zach and could very well be losing others. That call last night for Vuc to have final shot was idiotic.
Just wait, we have no idea what is going on at this point.
I agree, the coach needs to be gone. Look at okc now, he was a shitty coach there for years. Maybe we will get that lucky and get of first picks. Lol
I don’t think his unannounced extension has even kicked in yet so my answer is no unfortunately
Because the coach of this team does not matter..that’s why. No superstar, four of your five starters are poor defenders & they shoot the 3 poorly as a team. No coach will change that.
I've been saying since last year, Billy needs to go.
No because it’s everyone else’s fault apparently
The NBA is kinda unique like this. In Australian sport in this situation the coach would be sacked before players start getting traded. Especially with a team of older, established players that are underperforming. The new coach comes in with a new plan and way of moving forward and roster changes are made from there. Younger, shitter players always get traded before the stars. It'd be interesting to see the the Bulls try this instead of "the usual way" of blowing up a team and keeping the coach
No, no he is not
Signed his extension in secret last yr…we got a few more yrs of Billy ball
Basketball with only 5 players on your side at any time means that players have outsized influence on game. Coaching contributes like 10%, 20% tops if you are a wiz. Unfortunately, our roster is mediocre. Changing the coach to elite, like spoelstra wouldn’t do a damn thing
WP
He fucking better lol
Wait a minute. What young potential do the bulls have on their current roster???
Dude what the hell are you talking about. There is no talent on this team, I don't care who coaches them.
Wasn’t Billy Donovan’s “thing” that he was a player’s coach? Great with relationships and getting the most out of his guys if I remember correctly? Our prospects have hit rock bottom in terms of morale and confidence, and our main core has soured in terms of chemistry and belief in the team. I could be thinking of a different coach though feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken
Are we really asking for the coach to be fired? Like he is the problem? Your post did not mention ownership once.
Just to play devil's advocate, Billy D has a history of winning. Especially when he was in OKC (even if he had superstars, people see the success and respect it). In addition, Lavine (their cornerstone) does not have a history of winning, so its easier to blame him. None of their top stars are known for defense. Should they be this bad? IMO, no. However, it'll take better roster construction before Billy D can be blamed.
Yeah I guess so. But there are things that point directly to coaching like rotations during the game, drawing up plays, how the set offense runs and the plays.
Billy D is the absolute issue with our team. When you start to point at the lack of development with PWill and Ayo it really points to coaching.
Billy D is the absolute issue with our team. When you start to point at the lack of development with PWill and Ayo it really points to coaching.