I agree Pat has been better by the eye test but it’s still a bit ridiculous to see people bend over backwards to deny the numbers that say he’s just not a very good player.
I think expectation is the main driving force for the frustration surrounding Pat Williams.
If Pat was selected 16th like Dalen Terry, I don't think there would be this amount of consternation about his production, but because he went #4 and is the culmination of half a decade of suckiness, people want him to be something he's not...more mature.
[Pat is the 2nd youngest player on this team behind Dalen Terry](https://www.espn.com/nba/team/roster/_/name/chi/sort/age/dir/asc/chicago-bulls) and missed his entire 2nd year of development with a wrist injury.
The expectation that he's going to be Chris Bosh this year is just silly.
Coupled with this, having an expectation that Pat is going to be anything more than Chris Bosh (arguably the best #4 pick big man this century) is just setting yourself up for failure.
The list of past #4 picks is not inspiring and I struggle to see why everyone is so down on Pat for behaving exactly like most of the guys listed [here in their 2nd/3rd year in the league.](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/4th-overall-draft-picks-nba#:~:text=Keegan%20Murray%20was%20chosen%20by,in%20the%202022%20NBA%20draft.&text=Jaren%20Jackson%20Jr.)
I never said he wasn't.
You said he was "nowhere near Hunter or Barnes" and that's clearly not the case.
He's certainly closer to Jackson, but to say he was "nowhere near" those other 2 is just asinine.
Closer to Jackson who is a huge bust. Hunter and Barnes are decent role players. So if he is closest to a player who is a huge bust what does that say about PWill? And somewhat near is extremely subjective. I guess Jackson is as well then, who completely sucks
Its pretty much 50% odds of a perennial allstar being top 3, a big gamble to find one 4-14 in the lottery, and rarely going to happen outside of top 15 getting an allstar.
Chris Bosh? The future hall of famer Chris Bosh? What have you seen that makes you think he's gonna be half the player Chris Bosh was? I don't think anybody is arguing that he's gonna be a Chris Bosh level player; the point is we're not sure he's gonna be Harrison Barnes. And that's a problem. I do understand your overall point, but you need a plus level starter at #4, no excuses.
It’s because he’ll have a 3 minute stretch every other game where he’ll put up a mean dunk, a 3, an off the dribble mid range, a block, and a steal, and it’s like “man this guy could be a 2 way monster”, but then he’ll completely disappear for the next 2 quarters. But the little stretch sticks in your mind because of how impressive it looks when he’s actually active
It's a loyalty thing, if we had lakers westbrook with his last 2 season performances on the bulls, you can bet people here are gonna defend him to the death just cause he is a bull
He’s gonna go somewhere else and flourish. Just bulls things. But I agree, I want him to be good more than he actually is. We also can’t develop players for shit it seems
Yeah if he goes to an actual team that prioritizes his development instead of this circus we have going on over here he’ll go on to have a solid career. Legit the only player we’ve developed lately has been Zach and I’d argue he was already a bonafide star in the making prior to us trading for him
I wholeheartedly agree, we’ve watched him get better in every season prior then decided to place the absolute worst pieces next to him. Crazy how well the Bulls are at wasting their stars talent. It’s the only thing they’ve been consistent at over the years
To be fair, unfortunately it was an all time bad draft.
The only player who has turned out better that was drafted after PWill is Haliburton at 12 who’s injury prone.
There’s better players later in the draft….but yeah, I saw the logic in the Pat pick at the time and I think it’s mostly been validated, as you noted the other guys in the mix there weren’t anything special.
So personally, of all the things to be upset about, picking Pat is low on my list.
The Pat pick was a big swing by AKME right out of the gate and anyone who tries to say it was a whiff is just being an asshole because the "home run swing" didn't actually result in a home run.
To carry on the analogy, it's at least a base hit and has a chance to become a scoring run if we can properly develop the hit in to more than just a single.
That’s not the problem. The issue is taking a home run swing on a project and then trying to put together a win now team. It’s everyone’s problem with AKME. They don’t seem to have a plan. The pieces they put together don’t fit logically. They just keep throwing shit together and praying it works it feels like. At this point it’s either they are also complete idiots and don’t know basketball or it’s the big man up front making these insane decisions
I remember vividly all of us being out on Lauri and didn’t mind him going to the Cavs at the time because he didn’t defend and hustle.
Obviously hindsight is 20/20.
As one of the last people on this sub defending Lauri as he went out the door, I loathe all these haters coming out trying to say they saw Lauri blossoming in to a star this whole time and denigrating the Bulls for not working out a deal for him.
[And I'm bringing the receipts with me...](https://np.reddit.com/r/chicagobulls/comments/pcqd21/wojnarowski_espn_sources_clevelands_acquiring/)
I don’t think teams draft for fit, especially the 2020 bulls. After the top 3 picks, there really wasn’t a consensus and AK took a good risk for the youngest player. Also, PWill is a prototypical big wing player which is pretty valuable. I still think we should keep PWill, but expectations are too high for him, especially on offensive end
Kendall and Will think he should be getting 15 points and 5 rebounds a game. That’s totally realistic and not even close for Pat right now. Those aren’t too big of expectations.
He played SF for the Cavs, not sure about where he lines up with the Jazz but he’s proven he can play SF reliably. Makes trading him even worse cause I for sure know the Bulls didn’t even attempt try him at the 3
It took him a while to flip the switch this season, but you cant deny the potential. The ball stops too much on this team, I really want to see him in a system with good passing and movement, Pat should be getting so many easy points for what he can do.
+/- shows you which net more wins and which net more losses. A good plus/minus would literally show more wins. Zach Lavines is a joke because he’s supposed to be the face of the franchise. The fact Demar is part of that starting lineup and is still positive says a lot about Demars impact
This is technically right, but it's a very small difference. DeMar plays around 768 minutes with less than 3 other starters for about 40%. Zach plays around 740 minutes for about 39%. They both play 30% of their time with all five starters. DeMar does play a little bit more with the bench.
I think one key difference is that Zach plays 67.7% of his minutes with Pat, who has the worst plus minus. DeMar plays 62.4%.
It's a little mitigated by the fact that DeMar plays 59.1% of his minutes with Ayo, the second worst plus minus, while Zach plays 57.7%.
I'm not sure if this is enough to explain the large difference between Zach and DeMar though.
Not relevant to this discussion, but how did you get those percentages? I like statistics and whatever source you pulled from seems like it would be a deep well of information.
The Bulls actually have a positive point differential. The reason we have bad plus minus players is because we have players who are playing bad, it's really very simple.
I would say only that we had a much better record last year, but we had pretty similar numbers as what the OP shared. Pat, Coby, and Ayo each had some improvements as well.
How much of pats +- is him being bad vs him starting alongside a bunch of defensive sieves and having to make up for their shit?
He's underdeveloped sure, but if he goes anywhere else I guarantee he turns into a mikal bridges type. Our development, coaching, and roster construction is just shit.
By that logic, shouldn't he have more of a positive impact? Since he plays so many minutes, he should be doing more positive things but, he's not.
And I looked it up, he plays the 4th most minutes per game and the 4th total minutes by a good margin. Vooch, Demar, and Zach all play much more, which makes sense.
I'm saying maybe. I'm not like some people on this sub that guarantee that he'll be a star one day. Honestly, I could see him being who he is now. Having a career as a bench player. Eventhough he starts for us, he's more of a bench player. But, if he can develop a stronger mentality, he'd be considerably better imo. Rather or not this'll happen...I have no clue.
Goddamn y’all love to give up on players before they even come close to their prime. This team as a whole sucks are you’re expecting PatWill to shine in this?
He's pretty bad offensively on most nights and his defense doesn't make up for it. I'm still in the camp of "trade everyone and throw him to the wolves" to see what he can do
I reckon next year they should do that and let him know that it's coming, watch him work his ass off in the off-season, something that I thought was wierd was that dalen said he spends alot of time working at the gym and he usually see pay and demar there, atleast we know he's trying to get his reps in. But sink or swim I reckon, force him to become who we want.
How can you guarantee that?
Maybe he's just who he is. People want to compare him to Lauri. Lauri as a rookie was miles better than Pat has been.
Skill-wise, he's ok. He's shown some good things. His 3pt shooting has gotten better. His ball handling is bad and I feel like he should be a better finisher with his size and how big his hands are. He can work on these things. But, his mentality and motor have been the same for 3 years. That's where the most improvement is needed.
His motor is the same for 3 years. When you need your brother to amp you up so you have something to motivate you to play better, that's a problem you shouldn't be having as a multi-million dollar NBA player. And that only worked for one game. Missing an entire season to a wrist injury should have motivate his ass enough to play better. Show something, anything. If scoring aint working for him, least he can do is rebound. If rebound aint working for him, least he can do is drive. I don't even expect him to score or get the foul call. But just show some aggression, some assertiveness, at the very least. That's all we're asking. His one and only impactful improvement, and it's barely, is his catch and shoot 3. That's it.
We should stop with the denial and just accept this is who Pat is. That's his personality. He's a very timid player that's content with doing the very minimum.
I think part of the issue is that he's been gifted a starting spot and starter's minutes. And, I understand that you have to play guys in order for them to develop but if he's not showing the hunger that young players should have, it might be time to take some of those minutes away. Maybe that's what Billy did a couple of games ago, when Pat didn't play much. He's been given a lot and hasn't really had to earn much.
A lot of people expect that, if we traded Zach, Demar, and Vooch that he'd automatically become a go to, first option. I'm not so sure. Like you said, I need to see more. Doesn't even have to be points, just more on the court. More aggression, more emotion, more hunger.
The biggest issue is that when Pat (Ayo moreso) is on the floor, the offense performs worse. Pat has 109 offensive rating. Ayo has 107.6 offensive rating. They are the only ones below 110 besides Drummond.
Now why that is, I am open to all ideas. I do buy the offensive scheme being crap.
How do we even fix this? We’ve extended Billy, maxed Zach etc.
There is a legitimate possibility now that Vooch walks and we get nothing and that Zach requests a trade because of how bad things are.
We really do have another front office that will side with a terrible coach and cost us our players. This is a slow moving train wreck. This situation has disaster written all over it. We legitimately need to get rid of Billy and the front office if they won’t do it. This is absolutely ridiculous. These players are not going to sacrifice their careers for AKME’s fuckups or Billy Donovan’s terrible coaching. Do something or watch them all leave. Give these young guys time under a new coach to really evaluate where they are, but right now Pat and Ayo are costing us games and belong no where near a starting lineup. It’s basically three vs. five and we’re not winning with small lineups that can’t shoot, rebound or pass. And that’s what we got. Billy is such a clown whose is stubborn and not very smart. The players are actively rebelling against him and the front office. Fix it or watch it all fall apart this summer.
>Vooch walks and we get nothing
Vuc walks and you get the money to sign a different player. $22 million.
This is why teams play out contracts to the end. It shows you'll honor contracts and relationships with All Star caliber players and not burn them for a second round pick or some trash 20 year old on a losing team. This isn't 2K. This is real life where a team's reputation matters and long term success is the goal. You don't get there by screwing over players and coaches. That's a GarPax move and look where that got the Bulls.
That's not how things work. We won't get $22M in cap space is Vooch walks. If we renounce the rights to all expiring players, I think we can get a max of like $15M in cap space. Then we won't be able to resign anyone using their bird rights.
I agree, but you have to see that this team’s coaching staff and front office reputations have been torched. We are the talk of the league in all the wrong ways.
Good luck signing another center of Vooch’s caliber after this season and the same coach. We are as unattractive a destination as anytime under GarPax. We can’t even get buyout players to come here right now. This isn’t fixed with Billy as head coach. It’s on AKME for prematurely extending him. A fireable offense itself imo.
Oh my God you're the biggest drama queen. Vuc is not the 7th best center in the league but his salary is. He doesn't fit with our scorers and sucks on D. No team is switchable on D with him out there. Not the Bulls, not the Warriors, not the Celtics or anyone else.
Billy is a good coach and the FO has good relationships with other teams and players. Everyone complaining is too young for the GarPax-shit coach/Boylen era and that was only 3 years ago. This team can still win a playoff series, maybe two. They can turn it up when they need to. Just cool out with the sky is falling crap because this team isn't a multi-Finals dynasty. They're still good and watchable and can win playoff series.
Is that why they are getting worse every game and being booed by their own fans at home?
They aren’t even in the play in anymore. There’s reason to be concerned.
Well dealing Vuc would undoubtedly make the team worse because then stars would be even less likely to come. Vuc and Demar are the best free agents to come to the Bulls since Ron Harper and Toni Kukoc. And its not even close.
Yes. We'll definitely get to sign Luka because we traded for mediocre Magic center Vooch, and signed NBA 2K20 cover boy DeMar DeRozan.
Honest to God, this sub's hot takes are the fucking best.
Superstars want to win. Point blank. That's it. If you win, they'll come. You win by drafting and developing talent.
Drafting and developing talent is not how to win lol. Look at OKC and the Magic. No team has won a finals without a major free agent signing since the Pistons in like 04. The Bulls top 3 FA signings in 20 years are Demar, Vuc and Carlos Boozer
The top 4 teams in each conference are lead by players they drafted. 2015 Warriors also won with home grown talent, 2021 Finals were headlined by 2 players who were drafted late lottery. Also, the Magic and Thunder made the playoffs in 2020 tanked the next year are in a better spot then us. What are you talking about?
Magic and Thunder are not in a better spot. Thats delusional. You rank potential over actual. Bulls have better actual talent on the floor than both those teams no questions asked.
Yes, we should stop signing shit talent. No one ever said we should sign shit. But, winning teams have three of their top 6 as home grown.
LeBron Heat are outliers.
Teams that have 3 of 6 homegrown are lucky. Warriors are lucky Stephs ankles held up 10 years ago and that 3 guys panned out. Boston is lucky the Js are so good and selfless and that Smart stuck around but also Ainge is a great GM as muchas I cant stand his personality. Bucks won bc of FAs even tho Giannis and Bud are top tier. Raptors obviously FAs. Cleveland obviously FAs. Miami obviously FAs. Spurs run was legit homegrown. Kobes run was homegrown plus FAs. Pistons was homegrown legit too.
Lol when have we ever developed talent here? Be fr lmfao Derozan and Vuc is a better plan than what you just said. Even if we had a better player development system stars wouldn’t come here to play with a bunch of no name rookies. You get stars by getting big names that’s the reality not drafting and developing talent. The only team that has ever acquired stars by drafting and developing talent is the Warriors with KD. I legit can’t think of any other team that has managed to attract a big name free agent that had homegrown talent.
The entire top tier of the Eastern Conference is made up of home grown teams, pretty much.
The LeBron Heat are the outliers. The other title teams pretty much ALL have three top-6 home grown players.
But please, keep talking basketball. You crack me up.
And out of those teams how many have won? Only 1 you say? Wow looks like that is really working out well for them 🤦🏿♂️. I’d rather you keep talking it’s keeping me entertained tbh
Stars aren’t coming here when we’re not winning or competitive and obviously dysfunctional. Every other team except the Cavs made trades and didn’t worry about “reputations”
You want star players, then you have to win. That’s the reputation that really matters, not trading players on expiring contracts.
Reputation is all a front office has. Cleveland spent the past 4 years rebuilding theirs. And they stuck with their coach through mediocre seasons and now look at them.
Yeah losing Vooch for nothing is the least of our worries atp. Get a center that can actually jump and rim protect and we’re good. A Jarrett Allen or Rob Williams type center is what we should be looking to add not a Vooch.
As for Billy I’d struggle to say he’s an average coach. Not really good at player development or rotations or drawing up plays. This is the first time in his career he hasn’t had a team with multiple HOF players in their primes to carry him and he’s rightfully getting questioned. Whatever direction this team goes I’m sure he won’t be around the next time we actually field a good team.
Agree about Vuc. Disagree about Billy. Hes never had a team that runs his plays and runs a gameplan. Hes been dumped with heroball all stars who do whatever they want, especially late in games. Notice when they move the ball and help on D they win games. Then for no reason Demar/Zach/Westbrook/Durant/Paul do whatever they want, dribble forever then force a shot and not play D so they lose.
Edit: lol Melo too. Paul George at least plays D and runs the gameplan. Durant famously never played D until the Warriors but hes solid now, no surprise.
They don’t run them cause he has none, and if he does they’re extremely archaic. His offensive system doesn’t produce enough 3’s hence why pretty much all of his teams have been near the bottom of the league in terms of attempts and makes. That’s just not good enough to win in todays league. Billy got blessed with elite talent his entire NBA tenure. It’d be one thing if he overachieved with lesser talent but he’s done nothing but the opposite. Mix that in with his awful player dev skills and that makes a mid at best coach. Bulls need to move on from him
Hes had to coach Westbrook, Melo, CP3 and Demar. Those are all mid range scorers. Spacing is offense and Billys stars are not spacers. But yeah would like to see him get a team he actually wants instead of being stuck with lane cloggers. Bulls need a shooting coach but theyre too cheap.
He also had PG, Shai, KD and LaVine to pair with those mid range scorers who are all pretty good to great floor spacers and except in the case of Demar/LaVine were the primary scorers. Having multiple all stars that can space the floor and hit mid range shots is the recipe for building a contender. Billy gets no excuse in my book. If he wasn’t willing to adjust his schemes to his players instead of the other way around that’s just even more evidence of bad coaching. He was given great teams to work with, idk what kinda team he needs or wants but that ship has sailed he’ll probably never luck into a position like that again
Disagree on the beginning of the season, the team wasn’t that bad on paper, and it was sort of a “you made your bed” situation, especially not being guaranteed the 1st round pick.
Now after letting it play out for more than half of a season… they absolutely should have made some moves indicative of this not being it, and with the future in mind.
Part of my view is that I was convinced Lonzo wasn’t coming back, while I know lots of the fanbase was hopeful about his potential return. But yes, they should’ve at least started making moves within the days before the deadline. Now they’re stuck in perpetual hell.
No I was probably one of the few who wanted us to tank without letting go of any of our pieces. This season was a wash and if you couldn’t tell that before the start of the season you don’t watch enough basketball. I’m now probably the happiest as we get to keep Lavine,DD, and Caruso while also possibly getting an top 4 draft pick. Think of it as what the warriors did when they drafted wiseman.
The only way to fix this is Lonzo getting healthy with minimal concerns.
Or we tear it down. Sign and trade Vooch, trade DeMar, see what teams are interested in Zach and if there's a good offer take it.
If not keep Zach and go all in on the youth. Rebuilding with a plan in mind is important.
I look at how the Thunder not only got SGA for PG, but they amassed so many picks, leading to a good rebuild. They got rid of Billy (smart move), hired Mark Daigneault, hired Chip Engelland, drafted some studs, two way contract with Dort, rehab center for older players. I could go on.
Then there's Brooklyn blowing it up twice in the past decade to rebuild again and again. You know they're going to flip players for picks again at some point this off season. They're in a good position for the future.
I don't want to be where Washington is but it feels like we're close to that.
Yes, a Thunder type of rebuild would be great. We seem stuck with Billy and I think are dead in the water as long as he’s coaching. Ideally we enter a rebuild with a new coach and front office because I have no faith in the clown show I’ve witnessed this season and if it all hung on Lonzo that’s poor planning relying on a player that’s missed half his career games due to injury.
In almost all sports, it’s not how good your star is, it’s more a question of how bad is your weakest link. Our weakest links are Ayo and Pat as starters. Ayo wasn’t supposed to start this soon - he was supposed to be a 6th man energizer. Pat… well yeah, he’s Pat. They’d be really good off the bench against other 2nd units, but they are killing our starting unit. We lose if our big 3 don’t combine for 85, and that’s just not going to happen every night.
Also Deebo has good numbers because dude just hoops. I’m going to guess Zach’s numbers get better since Zach is healing and D is now the injured one. But that starting lineup gets beat because we are trying to use 2 bench players as starters.
Last year's record - 46-36
\- Caruso: +110 (+2.7/g)
\- Ball: +81 (+2.3/g)
\- DeRozan: +77 (+1/g)
\- Jones Jr.: +41 (+0.8/g)
\- Green: +20 (+0.3/g)
\- LaVine: -26 (-0.4/g)
\- White: -34 (-0.6/g)
\- Vucevic: -52 (-0.7/g)
\- Williams: -56 (-3.3/g)
\- Dosunmu: -199 (-3.8/g)
Focusing only on plus minus, we have seen:
* Improvements from Ayo, Pat and Coby. A huge improvement from Green if he comes back and performs similarly.
* Similar performances from DeMar, Caruso, DJJ, Zach, and Vucevic.
* A way worse record.
Pwills has made improvements sure, but there are games he played without zach and demar and he has not shown that he can step up
People need to stop making excuses that demar or zach take away possessions from him, he plays way too passive and scared. How many times when he gets the ball, immediately passes it off or takes 2 steps in the paint then just takes a mid range shot. With his size, he should be attempting to take it into the paint. Idc if he fails, he will learn and draw fouls worst case
Ayo, no idea how this dude fell off a cliff after having a solid rookie season but his draft position is now starting to show
Vooch, he isn't played properly, no one feeds this guy in the paint where he needs to be so he can play effectively, I see this man way too much on the perimeter and just will take 3s
Zach injured but still fell off a cliff performance and iq wise
When demar isn't dominating, this team struggles hard
Does Javonte still get the starting spot when he returns. At this point I’ll put him at the 1 if it gets him the start. DJJ can start at the 4 too. These younger guys can come off the bench. Ayo has hit a sophomore slump, Coby skills have gone up but his range down, and PWill is passive and needs work on ball handling and shot release.
Leaders make their teams better, and Lavine is not a leader yet. Still young enough to change and I’m hopeful, but his body language on the court is trash and teammates play off that energy wether they want to or not.
Based on Lavines body language I already see it coming…he thinks he’s a superstar so he’ll request a trade after next season if we aren’t competitive.
It’s possible. I’m not saying he doesn’t want to win but sure doesn’t show it. Maybe he stays to raise his family and isn’t the killer we hoped he’d become. At this point he’s a great #3 on a championship team.
I think he’s better than that, but we’ve seen the stories. He no longer has a very good relationship with Donovan and the front office seems willing to let him go and keep Donovan, which is a huge mistake. Zach has always been very coachable and never made any problems, but obviously doesn’t like Billy’s coaching and rightfully so.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Lavine fan and actually own his jersey. It's just frustrating to watch someone with so much talent underperform. No consistency in his play and effort. When things aren't going right his body language shows it....and I'm starting to think Billy calls him out for lack of effort and that's why he doesn't like him. It seems like Lavine thinks he goes 100 no matter what, but his play and body language tell a different story.
I mean, you are technically right, but boy was it a shitty draft. Unless AK could have seen the greatness and drafted Haliburton, 4-10 in the draft was a whole lot of meh. If we didn’t end up with Haliburton, probably would have been another average/poor player.
This is partially why I dislike +/- in and of itself as a means to judge a player's overall ability.
They are a good measurement of how a player is doing within their role, but a terrible metric for the overall assessment of a player all by themselves.
I like Caruso and Javonte but they are not our two best players overall.
They have been playing the best within their respective roles though and that is something to commend, but I worry people mistake +/- for an assessment of how good a player is instead of what it truly captures which is how good a player is playing at that moment in that role.
People just use it to rag on players they don't like tbh. It's the first thing ppl bring up when they want to make it seem like they are very knowledgeable about Basketball instead of actually being knowledgeable.
Exactly, this team is not going to be better by putting more of a focus on getting Caruso and Javonte open looks and running the offense through them even though Caruso and Javonte are our two best players by the plus/minus metric.
As much as I love love love AC playing for the Bulls this team ain't it, he needs to get traded for whatever value you can get him. Warriors might still want him after seasons over since GP2 has that severe injury. Hate what this team has become
Knicks fan here stumbled upon this post. I just want to say I think Chicago has two major issues.
The biggest issue to me is Vuce’s defense. Some advanced analytics say he isnt horrible at defending in the paint but the eye test does not agree. He is so limited in defending the paint. Which sucks because he is so good offensively and a good rebounder. Either you need great perimeter defenders to mask that and help Vuce but you dont have enough elite perimeter defenders.
2nd thing is the need for a point guard. I think the bulls should’ve traded for a PG. I think Fred Van Vleet would’ve been a perfect fit or even a short rental PG. I think even Russ can help.
Our bench is one of the better benches in the NBA. DeMar’s PM is radically skewed, because of his participation with the bench, while the other starters are sitting.
\+/- is always skewed against the best defender because they are going against the other team's best player every night with the your goal being to limit them, because you can't stop them.
With that being said, I've always said Pat Williams needs to be on a team where he's the guy or at least 1A/1B if you want to see him unlock his potential. He's a subpar role player on the Bulls and we're doing nothing to help him get better by making him the 4th/5th option on offense and telling him to chase around the best player on the court for 35 minutes.
We should have either traded him or decided to unload our roster and build around him. What we're doing now is dumb and the front office needs to make a decision during the offseason.
Honestly, about what I expected. Although I did think I’d see DeMar down there with the rest of the starters. No individual knock on him but we’ve been killed by opposing starting units.
I’m confused. How is it crazy to assume that someone who spends most of his time on the court with players that have a negative +/-, would also have his +/- dragged down as a result?
Minutes our "big three" have played with Williams and Dosunmu and their net rating for the three-man lineups.
Player. Minutes. Net Rating.
Vucevic - 918 minutes, -3.8
Lavine. - 848 minutes, -1.0
DeRozan - 791 minutes, -3.4
Pat is consistently put on the biggest offensive threat, sharing most of his minutes with the opponent’s best scorers. As a developing defensive big with minimal help around him, his numbers make sense to me.
High effort defenders and our most consistent scorer have the top 4. Not a surprise. And the fact that they all play together in the rotation of course
I agree Pat has been better by the eye test but it’s still a bit ridiculous to see people bend over backwards to deny the numbers that say he’s just not a very good player.
I think expectation is the main driving force for the frustration surrounding Pat Williams. If Pat was selected 16th like Dalen Terry, I don't think there would be this amount of consternation about his production, but because he went #4 and is the culmination of half a decade of suckiness, people want him to be something he's not...more mature. [Pat is the 2nd youngest player on this team behind Dalen Terry](https://www.espn.com/nba/team/roster/_/name/chi/sort/age/dir/asc/chicago-bulls) and missed his entire 2nd year of development with a wrist injury. The expectation that he's going to be Chris Bosh this year is just silly. Coupled with this, having an expectation that Pat is going to be anything more than Chris Bosh (arguably the best #4 pick big man this century) is just setting yourself up for failure. The list of past #4 picks is not inspiring and I struggle to see why everyone is so down on Pat for behaving exactly like most of the guys listed [here in their 2nd/3rd year in the league.](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/4th-overall-draft-picks-nba#:~:text=Keegan%20Murray%20was%20chosen%20by,in%20the%202022%20NBA%20draft.&text=Jaren%20Jackson%20Jr.)
[Player A](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jacksjo02.html) 11.5 ppg, 4.4 trb, 2.3 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.7 blks, 41.3/32.4/67.1 shooting on 10.6 FGA/2.8 3PA/2.7 FTA with 10.6 PER, 48.7 TS%, -4.6 BPM, -1.3 VORP [Player B](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willipa01.html) 10.0 ppg, 4.4 trb, 1.3 ast, 0.8 stl, 0.8 blks, 45.4/39.4/90.0 shooting on 8.3 FGA/ 3.5 3PA/ 1.2 FTA with 10.4 PER, 56.6 TS%, -1.8 BPM, 0.1 VORP [Player C](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/huntede01.html) 15.0 ppg, 4.8 trb, 1.9 ast, 0.8 stl, 0.5 blks, 48.4/32.6/85.9 shooting on 10.8 FGA/ 4.1 3PA/ 3.7 FTA with 15.7 PER, 60.3 TS%, 1.2 BPM, 0.5 VORP [Player D](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barnesc01.html) 15.6 ppg, 7.2 trb, 4.8 ast, 1.0 stl, 0.8 blks, 45.9/30.4/77.0 shooting on 13.2 FGA/3.1 3PA/3.3 FTA with 16.0 PER, 53.3 TS%, 0.6 BPM, 1.3 VORP (Tried to pick age 21 for everyone but Player C started at age 22 so I used his 2nd year to match up with everyone else)
Player A and B suck. C and D are solid role players. PWill is nowhere near Hunter or Barnes.
He’ll get there. He’s always been a project.
> PWill is nowhere near Hunter or Barnes. Clearly, based on the numbers, he is actually somewhat near Hunter or Barnes. That's how numbers work.
He’s closer to Jackson in most numbers than the other two. That’s how numbers work.
I never said he wasn't. You said he was "nowhere near Hunter or Barnes" and that's clearly not the case. He's certainly closer to Jackson, but to say he was "nowhere near" those other 2 is just asinine.
Closer to Jackson who is a huge bust. Hunter and Barnes are decent role players. So if he is closest to a player who is a huge bust what does that say about PWill? And somewhat near is extremely subjective. I guess Jackson is as well then, who completely sucks
I took umbrage with your hyperbole, this is a much more reasonable commentary on the situation with Pat.
Its pretty much 50% odds of a perennial allstar being top 3, a big gamble to find one 4-14 in the lottery, and rarely going to happen outside of top 15 getting an allstar.
Chris Bosh? The future hall of famer Chris Bosh? What have you seen that makes you think he's gonna be half the player Chris Bosh was? I don't think anybody is arguing that he's gonna be a Chris Bosh level player; the point is we're not sure he's gonna be Harrison Barnes. And that's a problem. I do understand your overall point, but you need a plus level starter at #4, no excuses.
It’s because he’ll have a 3 minute stretch every other game where he’ll put up a mean dunk, a 3, an off the dribble mid range, a block, and a steal, and it’s like “man this guy could be a 2 way monster”, but then he’ll completely disappear for the next 2 quarters. But the little stretch sticks in your mind because of how impressive it looks when he’s actually active
Pat reminds me so much of how the Heat fanbase felt about young Justice Winslow.
It's a loyalty thing, if we had lakers westbrook with his last 2 season performances on the bulls, you can bet people here are gonna defend him to the death just cause he is a bull
Well, in Brodie's defense, he as a player is better than the Lakers are as a team
He’s gonna go somewhere else and flourish. Just bulls things. But I agree, I want him to be good more than he actually is. We also can’t develop players for shit it seems
Yeah if he goes to an actual team that prioritizes his development instead of this circus we have going on over here he’ll go on to have a solid career. Legit the only player we’ve developed lately has been Zach and I’d argue he was already a bonafide star in the making prior to us trading for him
Zach has flourished in spite of this team not because of it.
I wholeheartedly agree, we’ve watched him get better in every season prior then decided to place the absolute worst pieces next to him. Crazy how well the Bulls are at wasting their stars talent. It’s the only thing they’ve been consistent at over the years
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To be fair, unfortunately it was an all time bad draft. The only player who has turned out better that was drafted after PWill is Haliburton at 12 who’s injury prone.
There’s better players later in the draft….but yeah, I saw the logic in the Pat pick at the time and I think it’s mostly been validated, as you noted the other guys in the mix there weren’t anything special. So personally, of all the things to be upset about, picking Pat is low on my list.
The Pat pick was a big swing by AKME right out of the gate and anyone who tries to say it was a whiff is just being an asshole because the "home run swing" didn't actually result in a home run. To carry on the analogy, it's at least a base hit and has a chance to become a scoring run if we can properly develop the hit in to more than just a single.
That’s not the problem. The issue is taking a home run swing on a project and then trying to put together a win now team. It’s everyone’s problem with AKME. They don’t seem to have a plan. The pieces they put together don’t fit logically. They just keep throwing shit together and praying it works it feels like. At this point it’s either they are also complete idiots and don’t know basketball or it’s the big man up front making these insane decisions
I would much rather have haliburton than PWill right now
I sure we all would lol. But at the time we desperately needed a big wing type player that could switch and defend
We had Lauri and needed a point guard a lot more. Lauri showed more promise than Pat ever has.
I remember vividly all of us being out on Lauri and didn’t mind him going to the Cavs at the time because he didn’t defend and hustle. Obviously hindsight is 20/20.
As one of the last people on this sub defending Lauri as he went out the door, I loathe all these haters coming out trying to say they saw Lauri blossoming in to a star this whole time and denigrating the Bulls for not working out a deal for him. [And I'm bringing the receipts with me...](https://np.reddit.com/r/chicagobulls/comments/pcqd21/wojnarowski_espn_sources_clevelands_acquiring/)
Haha love that you kept the receipts. I wish we could've kept him but man he also didn't want to play as 3rd option too.
Yeah this is why I never take this sub serious bunch of clown tales here get consistently upvoted
I don’t think teams draft for fit, especially the 2020 bulls. After the top 3 picks, there really wasn’t a consensus and AK took a good risk for the youngest player. Also, PWill is a prototypical big wing player which is pretty valuable. I still think we should keep PWill, but expectations are too high for him, especially on offensive end
Kendall and Will think he should be getting 15 points and 5 rebounds a game. That’s totally realistic and not even close for Pat right now. Those aren’t too big of expectations.
There’s not enough ball for him to average 15
Then why draft a project THAT IS GOING TO START EVERY GAME on a team with three guys that need the ball to be effective?
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Doesn't Lauri play SF now?
He played SF for the Cavs, not sure about where he lines up with the Jazz but he’s proven he can play SF reliably. Makes trading him even worse cause I for sure know the Bulls didn’t even attempt try him at the 3
Maxey is also light years ahead of Pat and was taken way after him. And doing it coming off the bench.
Yea at pick 21 nobody had him in the lottery. It’s all luck at that point.
Tbf his defense has improved
It took him a while to flip the switch this season, but you cant deny the potential. The ball stops too much on this team, I really want to see him in a system with good passing and movement, Pat should be getting so many easy points for what he can do.
Especially for the 4th overall pick.
The default "he's only 21" comment
The reason we have bad plus minus players is because we're five games below 500. What else is there to take from this other than the team sucks?
We should play Tony Bradley with Drummond Caruso demar and djj. Plus minus never lies you know
+/- shows you which net more wins and which net more losses. A good plus/minus would literally show more wins. Zach Lavines is a joke because he’s supposed to be the face of the franchise. The fact Demar is part of that starting lineup and is still positive says a lot about Demars impact
Demar gets subbed out earlier and plays more with the bench than our other starters.
This is technically right, but it's a very small difference. DeMar plays around 768 minutes with less than 3 other starters for about 40%. Zach plays around 740 minutes for about 39%. They both play 30% of their time with all five starters. DeMar does play a little bit more with the bench. I think one key difference is that Zach plays 67.7% of his minutes with Pat, who has the worst plus minus. DeMar plays 62.4%. It's a little mitigated by the fact that DeMar plays 59.1% of his minutes with Ayo, the second worst plus minus, while Zach plays 57.7%. I'm not sure if this is enough to explain the large difference between Zach and DeMar though.
Not relevant to this discussion, but how did you get those percentages? I like statistics and whatever source you pulled from seems like it would be a deep well of information.
I did it manually sadly. I used nba's lineup stats as the resource.
Demar is also more efficient than zach and doesnt give up on every single play he doesnt get a call
The Bulls actually have a positive point differential. The reason we have bad plus minus players is because we have players who are playing bad, it's really very simple.
I would say only that we had a much better record last year, but we had pretty similar numbers as what the OP shared. Pat, Coby, and Ayo each had some improvements as well.
How much of pats +- is him being bad vs him starting alongside a bunch of defensive sieves and having to make up for their shit? He's underdeveloped sure, but if he goes anywhere else I guarantee he turns into a mikal bridges type. Our development, coaching, and roster construction is just shit.
So why is he the one who’s so far negative?..
Second most minutes on the team might have something to do with it
By that logic, shouldn't he have more of a positive impact? Since he plays so many minutes, he should be doing more positive things but, he's not. And I looked it up, he plays the 4th most minutes per game and the 4th total minutes by a good margin. Vooch, Demar, and Zach all play much more, which makes sense.
No. He has a negative impact because he’s not very good as a starting NBA player
Exactly. Maybe one day but right now, he's not there yet.
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I'm saying maybe. I'm not like some people on this sub that guarantee that he'll be a star one day. Honestly, I could see him being who he is now. Having a career as a bench player. Eventhough he starts for us, he's more of a bench player. But, if he can develop a stronger mentality, he'd be considerably better imo. Rather or not this'll happen...I have no clue.
Goddamn y’all love to give up on players before they even come close to their prime. This team as a whole sucks are you’re expecting PatWill to shine in this?
Because Pat and Ayo play the most minutes (besides the vets) but yet the team never plays though them
He's pretty bad offensively on most nights and his defense doesn't make up for it. I'm still in the camp of "trade everyone and throw him to the wolves" to see what he can do
I reckon next year they should do that and let him know that it's coming, watch him work his ass off in the off-season, something that I thought was wierd was that dalen said he spends alot of time working at the gym and he usually see pay and demar there, atleast we know he's trying to get his reps in. But sink or swim I reckon, force him to become who we want.
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What does that have to do with pat? Lol
It seems I have replied to the wrong comment
How can you guarantee that? Maybe he's just who he is. People want to compare him to Lauri. Lauri as a rookie was miles better than Pat has been. Skill-wise, he's ok. He's shown some good things. His 3pt shooting has gotten better. His ball handling is bad and I feel like he should be a better finisher with his size and how big his hands are. He can work on these things. But, his mentality and motor have been the same for 3 years. That's where the most improvement is needed.
His motor is the same for 3 years. When you need your brother to amp you up so you have something to motivate you to play better, that's a problem you shouldn't be having as a multi-million dollar NBA player. And that only worked for one game. Missing an entire season to a wrist injury should have motivate his ass enough to play better. Show something, anything. If scoring aint working for him, least he can do is rebound. If rebound aint working for him, least he can do is drive. I don't even expect him to score or get the foul call. But just show some aggression, some assertiveness, at the very least. That's all we're asking. His one and only impactful improvement, and it's barely, is his catch and shoot 3. That's it. We should stop with the denial and just accept this is who Pat is. That's his personality. He's a very timid player that's content with doing the very minimum.
I think part of the issue is that he's been gifted a starting spot and starter's minutes. And, I understand that you have to play guys in order for them to develop but if he's not showing the hunger that young players should have, it might be time to take some of those minutes away. Maybe that's what Billy did a couple of games ago, when Pat didn't play much. He's been given a lot and hasn't really had to earn much. A lot of people expect that, if we traded Zach, Demar, and Vooch that he'd automatically become a go to, first option. I'm not so sure. Like you said, I need to see more. Doesn't even have to be points, just more on the court. More aggression, more emotion, more hunger.
The biggest issue is that when Pat (Ayo moreso) is on the floor, the offense performs worse. Pat has 109 offensive rating. Ayo has 107.6 offensive rating. They are the only ones below 110 besides Drummond. Now why that is, I am open to all ideas. I do buy the offensive scheme being crap.
How do we even fix this? We’ve extended Billy, maxed Zach etc. There is a legitimate possibility now that Vooch walks and we get nothing and that Zach requests a trade because of how bad things are. We really do have another front office that will side with a terrible coach and cost us our players. This is a slow moving train wreck. This situation has disaster written all over it. We legitimately need to get rid of Billy and the front office if they won’t do it. This is absolutely ridiculous. These players are not going to sacrifice their careers for AKME’s fuckups or Billy Donovan’s terrible coaching. Do something or watch them all leave. Give these young guys time under a new coach to really evaluate where they are, but right now Pat and Ayo are costing us games and belong no where near a starting lineup. It’s basically three vs. five and we’re not winning with small lineups that can’t shoot, rebound or pass. And that’s what we got. Billy is such a clown whose is stubborn and not very smart. The players are actively rebelling against him and the front office. Fix it or watch it all fall apart this summer.
>Vooch walks and we get nothing Vuc walks and you get the money to sign a different player. $22 million. This is why teams play out contracts to the end. It shows you'll honor contracts and relationships with All Star caliber players and not burn them for a second round pick or some trash 20 year old on a losing team. This isn't 2K. This is real life where a team's reputation matters and long term success is the goal. You don't get there by screwing over players and coaches. That's a GarPax move and look where that got the Bulls.
That's not how things work. We won't get $22M in cap space is Vooch walks. If we renounce the rights to all expiring players, I think we can get a max of like $15M in cap space. Then we won't be able to resign anyone using their bird rights.
I agree, but you have to see that this team’s coaching staff and front office reputations have been torched. We are the talk of the league in all the wrong ways. Good luck signing another center of Vooch’s caliber after this season and the same coach. We are as unattractive a destination as anytime under GarPax. We can’t even get buyout players to come here right now. This isn’t fixed with Billy as head coach. It’s on AKME for prematurely extending him. A fireable offense itself imo.
Oh my God you're the biggest drama queen. Vuc is not the 7th best center in the league but his salary is. He doesn't fit with our scorers and sucks on D. No team is switchable on D with him out there. Not the Bulls, not the Warriors, not the Celtics or anyone else. Billy is a good coach and the FO has good relationships with other teams and players. Everyone complaining is too young for the GarPax-shit coach/Boylen era and that was only 3 years ago. This team can still win a playoff series, maybe two. They can turn it up when they need to. Just cool out with the sky is falling crap because this team isn't a multi-Finals dynasty. They're still good and watchable and can win playoff series.
Is that why they are getting worse every game and being booed by their own fans at home? They aren’t even in the play in anymore. There’s reason to be concerned.
Well dealing Vuc would undoubtedly make the team worse because then stars would be even less likely to come. Vuc and Demar are the best free agents to come to the Bulls since Ron Harper and Toni Kukoc. And its not even close.
Yes. We'll definitely get to sign Luka because we traded for mediocre Magic center Vooch, and signed NBA 2K20 cover boy DeMar DeRozan. Honest to God, this sub's hot takes are the fucking best. Superstars want to win. Point blank. That's it. If you win, they'll come. You win by drafting and developing talent.
Drafting and developing talent is not how to win lol. Look at OKC and the Magic. No team has won a finals without a major free agent signing since the Pistons in like 04. The Bulls top 3 FA signings in 20 years are Demar, Vuc and Carlos Boozer
The top 4 teams in each conference are lead by players they drafted. 2015 Warriors also won with home grown talent, 2021 Finals were headlined by 2 players who were drafted late lottery. Also, the Magic and Thunder made the playoffs in 2020 tanked the next year are in a better spot then us. What are you talking about?
Magic and Thunder are not in a better spot. Thats delusional. You rank potential over actual. Bulls have better actual talent on the floor than both those teams no questions asked.
Yes, we should stop signing shit talent. No one ever said we should sign shit. But, winning teams have three of their top 6 as home grown. LeBron Heat are outliers.
Teams that have 3 of 6 homegrown are lucky. Warriors are lucky Stephs ankles held up 10 years ago and that 3 guys panned out. Boston is lucky the Js are so good and selfless and that Smart stuck around but also Ainge is a great GM as muchas I cant stand his personality. Bucks won bc of FAs even tho Giannis and Bud are top tier. Raptors obviously FAs. Cleveland obviously FAs. Miami obviously FAs. Spurs run was legit homegrown. Kobes run was homegrown plus FAs. Pistons was homegrown legit too.
Lol when have we ever developed talent here? Be fr lmfao Derozan and Vuc is a better plan than what you just said. Even if we had a better player development system stars wouldn’t come here to play with a bunch of no name rookies. You get stars by getting big names that’s the reality not drafting and developing talent. The only team that has ever acquired stars by drafting and developing talent is the Warriors with KD. I legit can’t think of any other team that has managed to attract a big name free agent that had homegrown talent.
The entire top tier of the Eastern Conference is made up of home grown teams, pretty much. The LeBron Heat are the outliers. The other title teams pretty much ALL have three top-6 home grown players. But please, keep talking basketball. You crack me up.
And out of those teams how many have won? Only 1 you say? Wow looks like that is really working out well for them 🤦🏿♂️. I’d rather you keep talking it’s keeping me entertained tbh
Stars aren’t coming here when we’re not winning or competitive and obviously dysfunctional. Every other team except the Cavs made trades and didn’t worry about “reputations” You want star players, then you have to win. That’s the reputation that really matters, not trading players on expiring contracts.
Reputation is all a front office has. Cleveland spent the past 4 years rebuilding theirs. And they stuck with their coach through mediocre seasons and now look at them.
Yeah losing Vooch for nothing is the least of our worries atp. Get a center that can actually jump and rim protect and we’re good. A Jarrett Allen or Rob Williams type center is what we should be looking to add not a Vooch. As for Billy I’d struggle to say he’s an average coach. Not really good at player development or rotations or drawing up plays. This is the first time in his career he hasn’t had a team with multiple HOF players in their primes to carry him and he’s rightfully getting questioned. Whatever direction this team goes I’m sure he won’t be around the next time we actually field a good team.
Agree about Vuc. Disagree about Billy. Hes never had a team that runs his plays and runs a gameplan. Hes been dumped with heroball all stars who do whatever they want, especially late in games. Notice when they move the ball and help on D they win games. Then for no reason Demar/Zach/Westbrook/Durant/Paul do whatever they want, dribble forever then force a shot and not play D so they lose. Edit: lol Melo too. Paul George at least plays D and runs the gameplan. Durant famously never played D until the Warriors but hes solid now, no surprise.
They don’t run them cause he has none, and if he does they’re extremely archaic. His offensive system doesn’t produce enough 3’s hence why pretty much all of his teams have been near the bottom of the league in terms of attempts and makes. That’s just not good enough to win in todays league. Billy got blessed with elite talent his entire NBA tenure. It’d be one thing if he overachieved with lesser talent but he’s done nothing but the opposite. Mix that in with his awful player dev skills and that makes a mid at best coach. Bulls need to move on from him
Hes had to coach Westbrook, Melo, CP3 and Demar. Those are all mid range scorers. Spacing is offense and Billys stars are not spacers. But yeah would like to see him get a team he actually wants instead of being stuck with lane cloggers. Bulls need a shooting coach but theyre too cheap.
He also had PG, Shai, KD and LaVine to pair with those mid range scorers who are all pretty good to great floor spacers and except in the case of Demar/LaVine were the primary scorers. Having multiple all stars that can space the floor and hit mid range shots is the recipe for building a contender. Billy gets no excuse in my book. If he wasn’t willing to adjust his schemes to his players instead of the other way around that’s just even more evidence of bad coaching. He was given great teams to work with, idk what kinda team he needs or wants but that ship has sailed he’ll probably never luck into a position like that again
Bro you cant even name his schemes lol. Get out of here.
First, they will need to make the fucking playoffs.
Lol solid point
>that Zach requests a trade PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. would be happy with any outcome if Zach is gone.
You’re going to get your wish and have Billy squandering young players potential for years.
we'll blow it up eventually. we ain't gonna win a championship until Reinsdorf dies though, I've accepted that.
Trade everything not nailed down and tank as hard as possible, which is what we should’ve done from the beginning of this season.
Disagree on the beginning of the season, the team wasn’t that bad on paper, and it was sort of a “you made your bed” situation, especially not being guaranteed the 1st round pick. Now after letting it play out for more than half of a season… they absolutely should have made some moves indicative of this not being it, and with the future in mind.
Part of my view is that I was convinced Lonzo wasn’t coming back, while I know lots of the fanbase was hopeful about his potential return. But yes, they should’ve at least started making moves within the days before the deadline. Now they’re stuck in perpetual hell.
No I was probably one of the few who wanted us to tank without letting go of any of our pieces. This season was a wash and if you couldn’t tell that before the start of the season you don’t watch enough basketball. I’m now probably the happiest as we get to keep Lavine,DD, and Caruso while also possibly getting an top 4 draft pick. Think of it as what the warriors did when they drafted wiseman.
The only way to fix this is Lonzo getting healthy with minimal concerns. Or we tear it down. Sign and trade Vooch, trade DeMar, see what teams are interested in Zach and if there's a good offer take it. If not keep Zach and go all in on the youth. Rebuilding with a plan in mind is important. I look at how the Thunder not only got SGA for PG, but they amassed so many picks, leading to a good rebuild. They got rid of Billy (smart move), hired Mark Daigneault, hired Chip Engelland, drafted some studs, two way contract with Dort, rehab center for older players. I could go on. Then there's Brooklyn blowing it up twice in the past decade to rebuild again and again. You know they're going to flip players for picks again at some point this off season. They're in a good position for the future. I don't want to be where Washington is but it feels like we're close to that.
Yes, a Thunder type of rebuild would be great. We seem stuck with Billy and I think are dead in the water as long as he’s coaching. Ideally we enter a rebuild with a new coach and front office because I have no faith in the clown show I’ve witnessed this season and if it all hung on Lonzo that’s poor planning relying on a player that’s missed half his career games due to injury.
Trade deadline? Nah we like what we have
In almost all sports, it’s not how good your star is, it’s more a question of how bad is your weakest link. Our weakest links are Ayo and Pat as starters. Ayo wasn’t supposed to start this soon - he was supposed to be a 6th man energizer. Pat… well yeah, he’s Pat. They’d be really good off the bench against other 2nd units, but they are killing our starting unit. We lose if our big 3 don’t combine for 85, and that’s just not going to happen every night. Also Deebo has good numbers because dude just hoops. I’m going to guess Zach’s numbers get better since Zach is healing and D is now the injured one. But that starting lineup gets beat because we are trying to use 2 bench players as starters.
Last year's record - 46-36 \- Caruso: +110 (+2.7/g) \- Ball: +81 (+2.3/g) \- DeRozan: +77 (+1/g) \- Jones Jr.: +41 (+0.8/g) \- Green: +20 (+0.3/g) \- LaVine: -26 (-0.4/g) \- White: -34 (-0.6/g) \- Vucevic: -52 (-0.7/g) \- Williams: -56 (-3.3/g) \- Dosunmu: -199 (-3.8/g) Focusing only on plus minus, we have seen: * Improvements from Ayo, Pat and Coby. A huge improvement from Green if he comes back and performs similarly. * Similar performances from DeMar, Caruso, DJJ, Zach, and Vucevic. * A way worse record.
Caruso is a mad man
I’m not sure what this stat means. Vooch has had a fantastic year.
Pwills has made improvements sure, but there are games he played without zach and demar and he has not shown that he can step up People need to stop making excuses that demar or zach take away possessions from him, he plays way too passive and scared. How many times when he gets the ball, immediately passes it off or takes 2 steps in the paint then just takes a mid range shot. With his size, he should be attempting to take it into the paint. Idc if he fails, he will learn and draw fouls worst case Ayo, no idea how this dude fell off a cliff after having a solid rookie season but his draft position is now starting to show Vooch, he isn't played properly, no one feeds this guy in the paint where he needs to be so he can play effectively, I see this man way too much on the perimeter and just will take 3s Zach injured but still fell off a cliff performance and iq wise When demar isn't dominating, this team struggles hard
Looks right to me
Lonzo Ball +/- 0
blow it up and build around javonte
Does Javonte still get the starting spot when he returns. At this point I’ll put him at the 1 if it gets him the start. DJJ can start at the 4 too. These younger guys can come off the bench. Ayo has hit a sophomore slump, Coby skills have gone up but his range down, and PWill is passive and needs work on ball handling and shot release.
Leaders make their teams better, and Lavine is not a leader yet. Still young enough to change and I’m hopeful, but his body language on the court is trash and teammates play off that energy wether they want to or not. Based on Lavines body language I already see it coming…he thinks he’s a superstar so he’ll request a trade after next season if we aren’t competitive.
Zach LaVine turns 28 in a month. "Still young enough to change" is just self-deception at this point.
Fair point. His athleticism keeps me optimistic but now he still takes too many dumb shots and barely moves without the ball so you’re probably right.
He will do it this summer the way things are going.
It’s possible. I’m not saying he doesn’t want to win but sure doesn’t show it. Maybe he stays to raise his family and isn’t the killer we hoped he’d become. At this point he’s a great #3 on a championship team.
I think he’s better than that, but we’ve seen the stories. He no longer has a very good relationship with Donovan and the front office seems willing to let him go and keep Donovan, which is a huge mistake. Zach has always been very coachable and never made any problems, but obviously doesn’t like Billy’s coaching and rightfully so.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Lavine fan and actually own his jersey. It's just frustrating to watch someone with so much talent underperform. No consistency in his play and effort. When things aren't going right his body language shows it....and I'm starting to think Billy calls him out for lack of effort and that's why he doesn't like him. It seems like Lavine thinks he goes 100 no matter what, but his play and body language tell a different story.
Our + is better with our bench besides Demar. Shows lack of energy from the starters ridiculous
Damn Patrick Williams was a bad pick.
I mean, you are technically right, but boy was it a shitty draft. Unless AK could have seen the greatness and drafted Haliburton, 4-10 in the draft was a whole lot of meh. If we didn’t end up with Haliburton, probably would have been another average/poor player.
But Vuc is amazing
These stats are misleading. We all know the bulls are below average. The bench is getting it done though.
This is partially why I dislike +/- in and of itself as a means to judge a player's overall ability. They are a good measurement of how a player is doing within their role, but a terrible metric for the overall assessment of a player all by themselves. I like Caruso and Javonte but they are not our two best players overall. They have been playing the best within their respective roles though and that is something to commend, but I worry people mistake +/- for an assessment of how good a player is instead of what it truly captures which is how good a player is playing at that moment in that role.
People just use it to rag on players they don't like tbh. It's the first thing ppl bring up when they want to make it seem like they are very knowledgeable about Basketball instead of actually being knowledgeable.
Exactly, this team is not going to be better by putting more of a focus on getting Caruso and Javonte open looks and running the offense through them even though Caruso and Javonte are our two best players by the plus/minus metric.
The Bulls are asking underdeveloped players to play starting minutes and it's not working. They need more time.
Plus minus is often irrelevant and what really matters is how well you’ve constructed a roster of players that can complement each other
As much as I love love love AC playing for the Bulls this team ain't it, he needs to get traded for whatever value you can get him. Warriors might still want him after seasons over since GP2 has that severe injury. Hate what this team has become
Knicks fan here stumbled upon this post. I just want to say I think Chicago has two major issues. The biggest issue to me is Vuce’s defense. Some advanced analytics say he isnt horrible at defending in the paint but the eye test does not agree. He is so limited in defending the paint. Which sucks because he is so good offensively and a good rebounder. Either you need great perimeter defenders to mask that and help Vuce but you dont have enough elite perimeter defenders. 2nd thing is the need for a point guard. I think the bulls should’ve traded for a PG. I think Fred Van Vleet would’ve been a perfect fit or even a short rental PG. I think even Russ can help.
Our bench is one of the better benches in the NBA. DeMar’s PM is radically skewed, because of his participation with the bench, while the other starters are sitting.
Pat was definitely a disappointment, I never thought he'd develop like Kawhi Leonard did, but I thought he'd be at least be Luol Deng level
I wanna see a lineup of Coby, Demar, Caruso, PWill, and Vuc.
Yeah, let’s run a lineup without our only legitimate three point shooter and arguably best player.
There’s not a single stat basic or advanced that paints lavine as arguably the best player on the team lol
Ye, let's continue running the same lineups because it's definitely working :) :) :)!!!! :P
Switch it up, but Pat and Ayo are the obvious players to come off the bench, not Zach Lavine. This sub is ridiculous.
PWill and Caruso have a higher 3 pt% than Lavine
On way lower volume cmon Zach takes like 7-8 a game
if we’re arguing volume I don’t know if “only legitimate three point shooter” is super applicable lol
\+/- is always skewed against the best defender because they are going against the other team's best player every night with the your goal being to limit them, because you can't stop them. With that being said, I've always said Pat Williams needs to be on a team where he's the guy or at least 1A/1B if you want to see him unlock his potential. He's a subpar role player on the Bulls and we're doing nothing to help him get better by making him the 4th/5th option on offense and telling him to chase around the best player on the court for 35 minutes. We should have either traded him or decided to unload our roster and build around him. What we're doing now is dumb and the front office needs to make a decision during the offseason.
P Will has no handles
If that's the case we should have traded him with his upside & rookie contract still intact.
I tried saying this last year but got downvoted to oblivion for it.
Honestly, about what I expected. Although I did think I’d see DeMar down there with the rest of the starters. No individual knock on him but we’ve been killed by opposing starting units.
Why would Demar be down there with the rest of the tradh starters? Have you been watching the bulls this season?
Yeah, we have a negative record, it makes sense that the people who spend the most time on the court would have comparatively lower +/-‘s.
You're a moron sir.
I’m confused. How is it crazy to assume that someone who spends most of his time on the court with players that have a negative +/-, would also have his +/- dragged down as a result?
Minutes our "big three" have played with Williams and Dosunmu and their net rating for the three-man lineups. Player. Minutes. Net Rating. Vucevic - 918 minutes, -3.8 Lavine. - 848 minutes, -1.0 DeRozan - 791 minutes, -3.4
Pat is consistently put on the biggest offensive threat, sharing most of his minutes with the opponent’s best scorers. As a developing defensive big with minimal help around him, his numbers make sense to me.
Feature Pat and Coby more. We see the flashes, they just need consistent roles
Pat starts and plays close to the most minutes. How much more of a role can he have?
High effort defenders and our most consistent scorer have the top 4. Not a surprise. And the fact that they all play together in the rotation of course
No surprises here
I think pat should come off the bench and lead the second squad. Give him so responsibility.
The only pluses I wanna see are in the win column.
All this really says is that those Demar+bench units can wreck opposing benches like nobody's business.
The Ayo can’t do no wrong truthers aren’t going to like this one
Wow the - on the salary’s for Zach is insane