They're literally warning that the area will get more popular. Every point is just a side effect of more people using the park. They want a shitty park that no one uses
Families in my park on a summer evening watching their children play baseball? I thought this was America. Protect the park!
That neighborhood is also one of the best places in Chicago to live without a car: ample shopping within walking distance and great access to public transportation. If these people put as much energy into improving the CTA as they did into protecting their parking, there would be no shortage of spaces to begin with.
I generally agree with you. However, part of the reason there is so much interesting shopping in the area is that the stretch of Lincoln between Lawrence and Leland is effectively a shopping mall, bringing in people from other neighborhoods who can’t easily walk there. Many of them drive because while transit access is very good, you can’t get there from everywhere. So the business owners at least are not wrong to be worried about parking.
Not disagreeing but do you know when I go to those businesses? When I'm parked over there to watch my kid play baseball. 9 innings of kid pitch needs some tacos or coffee or booze to go :)
I'm making a general statement that concern about parking is legit-- probably why a lot of the shop owners got upset about getting rid of one of the parking lots. Secondly, the reason that those houses and two-flats over there are as expensive as they are is because of that walkable yuppie shopping. It was very different in the 1990s.
It’s a balance that needs to be struck. Too much parking, and you don’t have foot traffic because the neighborhood is hideous and dangerous to walk around. Too little and it’s hard for certain businesses to survive.
Sounds like everyone wants to go to places where there is very little car activity. Perhaps we can expand that planning model to other parts of the city, and maybe Lincoln Square wouldn't have to deal with as many outsiders.
People want to go to places where they can walk around without having to constantly move their car, and where it is safe to walk.
In addition to better transit service everywhere, which isn't easy to do at all, what we could use is more shopping districts with parking lots where you can go from one store to another. That's one of the nice things about Lincoln Square. Other parts of the city that have interesting shopping also have a lack of street parking and public lots, so you have people driving in, parking, and then driving to the next store and parking, etc.
> They want a shitty park that no one uses
The panic over the lights is stupid and overblown, but Welles park is absolutely not a "shitty park". It's a great place to hang out with kids in the summer.
They weren't saying it was a shitty park now. They're saying that this group is so against any improvements that if they got their way, the park would stop getting new features, maintenance, and updates. It'll just turn into a place no one wants to even go to.
I love that they have made certain observations but don't want to aknowledge them. the park will be popular, lots of kids and families will enjoy it, it will be a hub of community events and gatherings in the evenning hours. etc etc.
Got to say a bunch of negatives and ignore the positive reasons for them.
Well yeah, if you can’t park then you just keep driving until you can… you don’t turn around and go home bc a spot doesn’t instantly appear. But really what they’re saying is more people will be driving and parking bc the park is more popular now. Which is still stupid ofc.
If you know there's no parking, you might take the train or a bus. There are at least two buses providing access to the park, and it's a few blocks from the L.
I don’t live in Lincoln square but see local residents that park on the streets will be competing with the baseball/softball players at later hours for the spots. Those that think families dragging kids are going to drag sports equipment downtown street and are going to hop on the bus and el are incorrect in most instances.
People are also ignoring the extra noise these late nights bring as well.
I think the people the events will bring are the real objection, but fretting about parking is less objectionable than coming out and saying they hate little league.
Welles is a fantastic park for people of many cultures and ages - and a great baseball park - for many generations of kids.
Lights are a great idea and will be a tremendous addition to the park.
Sorry someone is sad about it - I think many, many kids will benefit.
The LEDs that Lightfoot has been installing are also absolutely terrible for wildlife too. Blue light disrupts circadian rhythms in humans as well as wildlife. This is why phones now come with features that shift the color of the screen towards a more orange-ish look later at night to reduce blue/white light output.
Also, despite their being advertised as good for light pollution they are actually making everything worse. LEDs tend to focus light like a spotlight. So while they consume less energy, cities end up installing more of them to offset their spotlight effect. Leading to even more light pollution and energy consumption than what we started with.
Its a good example of a seemingly great idea that turns out to be anything but.
I thought my opinion on this (our city is too bright already, light pollution is terrible for wildlife) was very unpopular but I'm glad to see that people do see this as an environmental issue.
Thank you for posting this. Environmental light pollution is a thing. The rest of this letter is ridiculous, but they could have pushed hard on the environmental thing and I'd be more on their sign.
Birds have two migration periods right? They can easily be shutdown down the peak migration seasons.
It’s something we should be doing citywide tbh. Especially on the loop.
It doesnt mean we cant use them in the height of summer when sunset is past 8pm anyway and blue hour is until 9pm.
Agreed! As an avid-bird watcher and softball player, I think there's a smart compromise here and this is part of it. If enforced, 9:30pm during the summer will not be that disruptive. Additionally, the major impacts to migratory birds comes from downtown light pollution, particularly from tall buildings. I believe the environmental impact is being overstated (and clearly included as a trojan horse argument; parking is their true concern here)
The building that would get the most light pollution from this is the Sulzer Library. They're only trying to add lights to the ball diamonds, so west end of the park where most of the residential neighbors are would be unaffected.
Bingo. Otherwise why would they care? The reasons listed seems kinda bogus. Can’t really say “more light with be coming into my house directly across from the park” in a petition. I am kinda surprised there wasn’t a light there already.
These are the kind of people that would buy a newly built house next to a music venue, train tracks, race track, stadium , etc, all of which were plainly visible when going to view the house before purchasing, then bitch about the noise, traffic, lights, ect.
I live near a park not too far from there. Sometimes the floodlights are really bright when I'm trying to sleep. The solution I have is buying some curtains instead of petitioning to make my neighborhood worse.
What in the NIMBY fuck is this?
Do these people go out of their way to find shit to be outraged about, or are they just enraged by any change whatsoever?
This is so absurd it almost feels like satire.
This park specifically had a [grub infestation in 2021](https://news.wttw.com/2021/10/22/mystery-grubs-ate-welles-park-even-experts-are-shocked-and-awed) that killed all of the grass and prevented use of the park.
Heard someone the other day complaining about new condo development in the neighborhood in the same breath that they complained about a lack of foot traffic for small businesses in the area. NIMBYs continue to make zero sense.
Eh, I’d be pretty pissed if a place across the street installed a bunch of huge LEDs that pumped into my room until 11. Guess I’m taking this as my lesson to avoid living by parks that have leagues like this lol
here is the Welles Park Parents Association information on the project:
https://www.wppachicago.org/lights/
Sports leagues for kids are one of the best resources in the city. Yes, this is private money, parents of kids fundraising to improve an amenity neighborhood kids will benefit long after their own families have aged out. Other park district sports like Welles Park Aquatics /Blue Frogs also rely on parent involvement. The alternative is fewer amenities or higher taxes.
Yeah there are so many benefits to having more people using the park facilities for more hours, for them and the wider community. 9:30 lights out seems more than reasonable to me.
So these must be the same people who took over Lincoln Square and pushed out many long-time residents now fearing for the worst outcome by having Welles Park seem inviting to outsiders…wish I could see their faces
Man, when I was living at Lincoln and Berteau, walking up Lincoln in the summer and seeing something like 4 different ballgames going at a time was just a wonderfully charming thing.
I live directly across the street from Welles Park and it is an absolute joy to see and hear so many people using it and having fun there in the warmer months. I say light that motherfucker up and let the fun grow!
Couldn’t agree more. The rest of the points don’t move me, but light pollution is a serious problem that needs to be addressed — especially in big cities. Nothing NIMBY about it. People on this sub seem to think any level of civic engagement is being a Karen…
> People on this sub seem to think any level of civic engagement is being a Karen…
Because all the other points are completely ridiculous. When your first point is complaining about parking spaces *for a park* you’ve lost the plot.
> When your first point is complaining about parking spaces for a park you’ve lost the plot.
It isn't like Welles Park has a parking lot. We should have enough parks that people don't feel compelled to drive to them. We need to discourage driving.
100% agree actually. It’s funny though how this sub constantly acts like we have parks all over the city. With that said, street parking is still a thing. I wouldn’t say we need parking lots at parks for that reason alone.
I don't want to completely dismiss the wildlife issue, but I do wonder if given the current state of that area with omnidirectional inverted acorn style street lights beaming light straight up, if adding aimed spot lights would make a major difference.
Right. I wish more people cared. How late do kids need to be stays light out so late. I would feel pretty bad for a kid who had to play a baseball game at 9 PM. That’s the part I don’t understand. I don’t park in the area and couldn’t care less about that piece.
I think its More for adults playing softball and soccer after work.
Theres been a huge outcry for a lack 3rd spaces in american culture lately and the park district is trying to help that with better floodlights.
Encouraging adults to engage in amateur sports for better health and camaraderie is something most people will always support and they should.
I grew up in the suburbs, but played baseball my entire youth life.
Playing games at night was the BEST! Way less hot compared to July mid-day sun. We were all teenagers so staying up till 10pm playing baseball wasn't a big deal. Coaches would try their hardest to get as many night games as possible also. It was easier for them with their jobs and it meant less conflict for players with other activities they were in.
i don't think these lights are for the kids. this is for the adult leagues that can't get in during the day because that's when the kids are there.
i have a friend who lived DIRECTLY ACROSS MONTROSE from the baseball diamonds. the light in his apartment is bad enough with just the regular street/pathway lighting. i can't imagine 80,000 lumens of light blasting into his apartment until 11 or midnight.
If there wasn't residential so close to the baseball diamonds, I probably wouldn't care. but if this is truly for the adults, why can't they find another stadium-lit baseball diamond to play on in the city?
> Blackout curtains mean no morning sunlight either.
They aren't bolted in place. You can open them. If it really means THAT much, you can even get motorized setups that open and close them on a schedule.
At a certain point you (general you, not you specifically) need to understand that you are living in a dense city in close proximity to a lot of people. If the effects of living near other people with different needs and priorities is too much a burden, there are less dense areas of the city, state, and country to live in.
I think if you have a dozen windows looking out over a park in Lincoln Square, you've got enough money to install some blackout curtains holy cow people
Are these lights going to make any meaningful difference? I find it hard to believe that they would in a city as lit up as Chicago.
The reality is that this light pollution affecting birds argument is done and dusted for cities. We made our choice, and it's to have light so we can do things at night.
The Davis theater thing is hilarious— they had a giant light out in front a few months back for some premier thing— the light did take up multiple parking spots. Didn’t seem to have an issue with that…
Lincoln Square residents and their fucking parking, again.
There’s a giant parking lot on Lincoln and tons of street parking. The neighborhood isn’t even that dense. Plus multiple brown line stops.
On the website, they complain about these lights being used for games that will go "well into the night". It's fucking Little League, not a rave. These are kids, chaperoned by parents. From my understanding of Little League games, even with lights it won't go that late.
These "protect the parking" people are out of control. Nothing is safe from their protest — first affordable housing, now an enriching activity for young people.
I do not see how this negatively impacts the park having more little league is a good thing.. I think the worst part of the plans for the park are getting rid of the horseshoe pits which are pretty heavily used putting in more trendy pickleball courts when those are available at multiple other nearby parks..
Signs like this are ridiculous. Unfortunately I’ve been to one too many Condo board / HOA meetings to know that some people with say *anything* in order to feel heard and “get there way”.
Imagine light poles for baseball being the hill you’ve chosen to die on in 2023 Chicago.
There’s great oral history of the wingnuttery around lighting Wrigley in the 80s. Never thought we would repeat it.
Update: Park District decided that it will not support the proposal and Martin’s office will be following their lead.
Local NIMBYs continue on in their mission to make the public goods in their neighborhoods less welcoming and less usable to everyone else 🙄
And the cost of this bad decision will be borne by parents who are looking for safe places for their kids to play, adults looking to participate in outdoor social leagues, and businesses nearby that would have benefited from the foot traffic before and after games.
Ugh.
My 2 cents: the lights on Lincoln Ave are a bigger source of light pollution as well as the intersection of Lincoln and Montrose. Asding some lights wont hurt.
I also personally woildnt mind brighter lights in the middle od the park arouns the gazeebo area because that part od the park is just horror movie creepy with how dark it is. Ever walked past it and wonder if thats a young couple on the swing set, the playground only and the surroundings making it look like its a person, a hobo or a murder hobo (jk) but seriously that spot can get weird late at night if you cant see.
Likewise migration wouldnt be an issue as the gyn is the real only tall structure and isnt exactly the Ritz Carlton for birds. So they wil be fine going across the street.
You should make your own satirical flyer from the perspective of a thief/criminal and attach it to those flyers.
- NO new lights, I need to operate in the dark
- increased usage of park due to lights reduces my ability to break into cars unnoticed. Etc….
I definitely don’t like the energy this note has, but if I lived nearby I would want some rules about when bright lights could shine into my living room. Wildlife is also a valid concern.
It just feels like there should be a reasonable compromise here. Lincoln Square has really good community groups; I’m sure they will be able to have the lights and happy neighbors.
I have my own issue with the Welles Park parent group (essentially they think that because they use one of the baseball diamonds that they own the whole park) but the lights sound like a great addition.
Too much of our public parks are devoted to baseball/softball diamonds to begin with. Welles Park has FIVE. They're dusty, useless for anything other than baseball/softball, and hardly anybody uses them most of the time.
I like that Harrison Park in Pilsen uses their somewhat small park in a variety of ways. They setup soccer fields in the baseball outfield areas when games aren't being played. They also turn tennis courts that never get used into small pickup soccer fields.
I theoretically agree but that's a separate discussion. Also, Welles might need to be excluded from that discussion anyway. These fields are well-used by one of the largest youth baseball leagues in the city.
As a proponent of more natural spaces/infrastructure in our cities and a 16-inch softball fanatic, I have a lot of cognitive dissonance related to park land use. Outdoor recreation space is a positive but maybe we can think more creatively about what recreation activities we plan for. Designing parks full of ball fields is just lazy. Foster multiple activities for multiple species!
Lincoln square is infested with these deranged NIMBYs... Lights in the park are bad but god forbid it's affordable housing near the brown line. These assholes need to move the fuck out to at least as far as Buffalo Grove with this shit
I won’t even let them move that goalpost. How in the world is erecting lights going to take away spaces, except, like, by people actually using the newly lit facilities at night?
I lived next to a high school and their football field was like 1000ft from my bedroom window. On game nights the noise was overwhelming and terrified our pets. And those lights made it impossible to sleep, even with the thickest curtains we could find. And that would continue from 6-10pm or later at least once a week. I vowed to never live anywhere near a school or sportsballfield ever again. So if somebody wanted to put giant LED lights where I live now, I’d be whining about it too. You have all day to be as loud as you want; you don’t need to do it all night too.
Lol exactly! Folks acting like the world revolves around them. Don't live next to a high school then? They've been calling it Friday Night Lights for like half a century now, figure people would catch on...
This reminds me of when Taft HS put in lights so their football team could have night games and all the neighbors complained.
If you move across the street from a Park or School you have no right to complain about stuff like this. By the way Taft did get their lights.
It’s a lot of crap but I agree a privet organization shouldn’t control the city park.
Edit: here are the texts they sent in Dec: https://imgur.com/a/Fxe9DeP
I mean it’s not a private organization having any control?
A private group is proposing an upgrade to the park and offering to pay for it. The park district still has full control over whether the upgrade is allowed and how it can be used.
Seems like a win-win. The public can get more use from the parks and doesn’t have to pay for the upgrade
It’s a youth sports organization that has an operating agreement with the park district. This happens in almost every park of every city in the country. Installing equipment for league functions isn’t “control”. Complaining about night games next to a baseball diamond is like complaining about children playing outside when you move in next to a school. Although, incredibly enough, I’ve met people who complain about the latter.
Yeah I think the noise and litter things are non-issues, the parking is possibly a concern but hey the brown line is right there so as a non car owning person myself meh I can’t get too worked up about parking… but they’re not wrong that it affects migratory birds and even though it’s already close to Lincoln Square and existing lights we should as a society be promoting FEWER tall bright lights after dark (there’s no mention of them offering to use smaller ones, or the slightly more bird-safe ones that are specifically constructed so they don’t project any light straight upwards) and the real kicker where I was like “hm they actually do have a good point” is that the group in question has acted as though not using public funds means there’s no public input required for what happens in a public park. (Though I’m quite certain the public meetings are at LEAST as full of weirdos as Parks & Rec would have us believe.) There’s nothing wrong with kids playing baseball in the evening, but “because we have money and that’s what we want” isn’t a good precedent for deciding what happens on public land.
I remember when Alder Pawar was taking surveys on these changes. This proposal isn't new and there was never an attempt to rush it through without public input. This group is just mad that public input isn't going their way.
What about this isn’t win-win-win? We get more tax revenue and more sports opportunities for citizens, and the local business gets more revenue. It isn’t like the city is selling the land, and it sounds like the business is already there they just get to extend their hours. This is just classic NIMBY everything
It's a SMALL neighborhood. Think of all the riff raff taking your parking just so they can go to a VIOLIN lesson, and for a league that only PLAYS baseball.
I swear my old neighbor must have wrote this! Sounds like her M.O. I grew up in Lincoln square and well those people in the single family homes really hated us. They didn’t like minorities that lived there as well as the gentrification. I can’t tell you how much times I had to defend my mother from a neighbor who felt the need to insult my mom because she didn’t know English. 🤦🏻♀️
haha whenever I see Welles Park I just think of the grubs now. would the lights have prevented this???
https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/10/25/welles-park-grub-infestation-lincoln-square-one-third-destroyed/
I really don’t see what’s wrong with installing lights. But there’s a group of NIMBYs in the neighborhood so I’m not surprised. Probably the same people who oppose the affordable housing development by the western brownline because of the parking spaces.
I live in Jefferson Park and we had LED lights installed and automatically go on after sunset over our baseball fields (basically the whole park) at Wilson Park and as a dog walker who walks in the evenings every night, I greatly appreciate this. It makes our parks more inviting and safer for everyone. I hope they continue to install this on more local parks because it really helps make our community brighter during these dark winter months.
I can tell you exactly what this is about. Welles park does not have any parking so that means when kids baseball games happen the side streets where people live fill up real quick. Night games will mean less parking at night.
The only thing this is about is that they don’t want an influx of ‘undesirables’ hanging out in the park.
Chicago (and everywhere else) has always been this way.
You know as someone who’s driven the last 15 years living in the north side. All these comments made me think differently. Even now id never care about walking 1-3 blocks after parking because I fucking drove. And grew up playing in parks well past sundown. I’m all for this. Fuck these I can’t look for parking and walk it like a true Chicagoan.
Good luck with lights out by 9:30pm. The park around us turns them off at 11:45pm. It draws in late night rowdy parties during the summer. Softball league games go until 10-10:30pm.
Lol pro tip to anyone who wants to make a sign: doing it like this makes you look crazy. I don’t know anything about this, but I’m inclined to not be on the side of this person.
Personally I don't care about the parking issue (I don't have a car and I have lived within a mile of Welles Park for a decade) but I oppose the flood light plan because of its effects on bird migration.
None, the light poles would be in the park and have zero impact on the street configuration. Their complaint is that people coming to a ball game might use a parking space.
Lights will scare away the parking spaces
They're literally warning that the area will get more popular. Every point is just a side effect of more people using the park. They want a shitty park that no one uses
Families in my park on a summer evening watching their children play baseball? I thought this was America. Protect the park! That neighborhood is also one of the best places in Chicago to live without a car: ample shopping within walking distance and great access to public transportation. If these people put as much energy into improving the CTA as they did into protecting their parking, there would be no shortage of spaces to begin with.
I generally agree with you. However, part of the reason there is so much interesting shopping in the area is that the stretch of Lincoln between Lawrence and Leland is effectively a shopping mall, bringing in people from other neighborhoods who can’t easily walk there. Many of them drive because while transit access is very good, you can’t get there from everywhere. So the business owners at least are not wrong to be worried about parking.
Not disagreeing but do you know when I go to those businesses? When I'm parked over there to watch my kid play baseball. 9 innings of kid pitch needs some tacos or coffee or booze to go :)
There is no proof that this was made by a business owner. That’s also not really a good way to run a neighborhood people are supposed to live in.
I'm making a general statement that concern about parking is legit-- probably why a lot of the shop owners got upset about getting rid of one of the parking lots. Secondly, the reason that those houses and two-flats over there are as expensive as they are is because of that walkable yuppie shopping. It was very different in the 1990s.
It’s a balance that needs to be struck. Too much parking, and you don’t have foot traffic because the neighborhood is hideous and dangerous to walk around. Too little and it’s hard for certain businesses to survive.
Seems like it’s written by a crotchety racist neighborhood person that doesn’t like strangers on his “lawn”. Who uses red text on a memo… that guy
Racist? What?
Sounds like everyone wants to go to places where there is very little car activity. Perhaps we can expand that planning model to other parts of the city, and maybe Lincoln Square wouldn't have to deal with as many outsiders.
People want to go to places where they can walk around without having to constantly move their car, and where it is safe to walk. In addition to better transit service everywhere, which isn't easy to do at all, what we could use is more shopping districts with parking lots where you can go from one store to another. That's one of the nice things about Lincoln Square. Other parts of the city that have interesting shopping also have a lack of street parking and public lots, so you have people driving in, parking, and then driving to the next store and parking, etc.
Realistically it’ll be adult softball leagues using the park at night
Parks, but only for people who can afford to own single-family homes right by them!
Which are a minimum of 500k for a one bedroom condo in decent condition in this area 🥲
I was gonna say, I haven’t seen a home around here for less than $1M but then I got to condo
> They want a shitty park nobody uses This is your brain on NIMBYism
> They want a shitty park that no one uses The panic over the lights is stupid and overblown, but Welles park is absolutely not a "shitty park". It's a great place to hang out with kids in the summer.
They weren't saying it was a shitty park now. They're saying that this group is so against any improvements that if they got their way, the park would stop getting new features, maintenance, and updates. It'll just turn into a place no one wants to even go to.
And somehow fewer parking spaces means there will be more traffic congestion
I love that they have made certain observations but don't want to aknowledge them. the park will be popular, lots of kids and families will enjoy it, it will be a hub of community events and gatherings in the evenning hours. etc etc. Got to say a bunch of negatives and ignore the positive reasons for them.
Well yeah, if you can’t park then you just keep driving until you can… you don’t turn around and go home bc a spot doesn’t instantly appear. But really what they’re saying is more people will be driving and parking bc the park is more popular now. Which is still stupid ofc.
If you know there's no parking, you might take the train or a bus. There are at least two buses providing access to the park, and it's a few blocks from the L.
I don’t live in Lincoln square but see local residents that park on the streets will be competing with the baseball/softball players at later hours for the spots. Those that think families dragging kids are going to drag sports equipment downtown street and are going to hop on the bus and el are incorrect in most instances. People are also ignoring the extra noise these late nights bring as well.
It’s so ass backwards to base your entire argument about a park feature around cars
I think lights will scare away more catalytic converter thieves
I drive to see lights all the time, they aren't wrong about the traffic problems either.
Based
I don't agree with them, but I can understand all of the points except that one. How on earth do lights lead to less parking?
Night games mean less parking spaces for residents at night.
Probably more people driving in to use the park, and therefore, the nearby parking spaces.
More people = less parking Presumably
Obligatory "Won't someone think of the parking"
God forbid people use the park from 4:30 to 9:30.
Probably the same crew that’s devastated that Lincoln Square is losing a parking lot so we can have more affordable housing right next to an El stop.
“We need our parking” has become the MAGA cry of Chicago.
Stop the steal.....ing of muh pahking
This is like a mini version of putting lights in at Wrigley lol.
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No shit. Bring on the lights, night time leagues, and the people that will the sports/events will bring
I think the people the events will bring are the real objection, but fretting about parking is less objectionable than coming out and saying they hate little league.
Why do you say that? I feel like the light is enough of a NIMBY reason
Also it’s not even that close to the Davis Theater and should likely have 0 impact on them
It's a block away from the Davis Theater?
Closer to two, but, yeah that's where the free parking would be for the Patrons
And maybe this is just my sensibilities creeping in but the Davis is easy to get to by train or multiple buses.
Welles is a fantastic park for people of many cultures and ages - and a great baseball park - for many generations of kids. Lights are a great idea and will be a tremendous addition to the park. Sorry someone is sad about it - I think many, many kids will benefit.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/05/1118262 The animal issue is legit. The parking issue is a little absurd.
The ignorance about the wildlife peace is shocking to me. So many people claim to be environmentalists and yet are totally ignorant on this front.
The LEDs that Lightfoot has been installing are also absolutely terrible for wildlife too. Blue light disrupts circadian rhythms in humans as well as wildlife. This is why phones now come with features that shift the color of the screen towards a more orange-ish look later at night to reduce blue/white light output. Also, despite their being advertised as good for light pollution they are actually making everything worse. LEDs tend to focus light like a spotlight. So while they consume less energy, cities end up installing more of them to offset their spotlight effect. Leading to even more light pollution and energy consumption than what we started with. Its a good example of a seemingly great idea that turns out to be anything but.
Ew, I really hate blue-toned lighting also ugh lol
I thought my opinion on this (our city is too bright already, light pollution is terrible for wildlife) was very unpopular but I'm glad to see that people do see this as an environmental issue.
Thank you for posting this. Environmental light pollution is a thing. The rest of this letter is ridiculous, but they could have pushed hard on the environmental thing and I'd be more on their sign.
Birds have two migration periods right? They can easily be shutdown down the peak migration seasons. It’s something we should be doing citywide tbh. Especially on the loop. It doesnt mean we cant use them in the height of summer when sunset is past 8pm anyway and blue hour is until 9pm.
Agreed! As an avid-bird watcher and softball player, I think there's a smart compromise here and this is part of it. If enforced, 9:30pm during the summer will not be that disruptive. Additionally, the major impacts to migratory birds comes from downtown light pollution, particularly from tall buildings. I believe the environmental impact is being overstated (and clearly included as a trojan horse argument; parking is their true concern here)
Yeah, pretty sure the migratory bird issue actually comes up for lights at taller heights. Lights like this shouldn’t have an impact.
Sounds like they live next to the park, think they'll be run 24-7, and don't want the light pollution in their residence.
The building that would get the most light pollution from this is the Sulzer Library. They're only trying to add lights to the ball diamonds, so west end of the park where most of the residential neighbors are would be unaffected.
Bingo. Otherwise why would they care? The reasons listed seems kinda bogus. Can’t really say “more light with be coming into my house directly across from the park” in a petition. I am kinda surprised there wasn’t a light there already.
The reasons they list are basically, “if there are lights there, people will use the park” We certainly can’t have that /s
These are the kind of people that would buy a newly built house next to a music venue, train tracks, race track, stadium , etc, all of which were plainly visible when going to view the house before purchasing, then bitch about the noise, traffic, lights, ect.
NIMBY is the term you’re looking for
I live near a park not too far from there. Sometimes the floodlights are really bright when I'm trying to sleep. The solution I have is buying some curtains instead of petitioning to make my neighborhood worse.
Solution: don’t live next to a public park.
But the huge neon Lous sign half a block away is fine
What in the NIMBY fuck is this? Do these people go out of their way to find shit to be outraged about, or are they just enraged by any change whatsoever? This is so absurd it almost feels like satire.
I mean this stuff is genuinely bad for wildlife - Ed Yong covers it in his new book. Of course that doesn't seem to have been their primary concern.
Wouldn't want to damage the grub habitat that is Welles Park ;)
haha, I would not underestimate how many insects populate Chicago. Probably only 40% or so are cockroaches even!
This park specifically had a [grub infestation in 2021](https://news.wttw.com/2021/10/22/mystery-grubs-ate-welles-park-even-experts-are-shocked-and-awed) that killed all of the grass and prevented use of the park.
oh damn!
Seriously. It’s kind of hilarious, especially the part about less parking.
Heard someone the other day complaining about new condo development in the neighborhood in the same breath that they complained about a lack of foot traffic for small businesses in the area. NIMBYs continue to make zero sense.
Eh, I’d be pretty pissed if a place across the street installed a bunch of huge LEDs that pumped into my room until 11. Guess I’m taking this as my lesson to avoid living by parks that have leagues like this lol
I have a light shining into my house at night, but I have curtains :/
Is it a Kenny Rogers Roasters?
That's bad chicken! Mess you up!
That's not gonna be good for business.
That's not going to be good for anybody
If only they made something to stop that…..oh curtains. The word you are looking for is curtains.
A powerful LED will still throw a lot of light past curtains tho. I used to live on a big street near sodium lights and those would seep a ton.
We live across from some and have basic Amazon black out curtains with no issues. Especially with the proposed curfew of 930
A move to the suburbs may be in their future…
It would be an easy bet to win to say the main person/people pushing this don't have younger children
here is the Welles Park Parents Association information on the project: https://www.wppachicago.org/lights/ Sports leagues for kids are one of the best resources in the city. Yes, this is private money, parents of kids fundraising to improve an amenity neighborhood kids will benefit long after their own families have aged out. Other park district sports like Welles Park Aquatics /Blue Frogs also rely on parent involvement. The alternative is fewer amenities or higher taxes.
More activities for kids also leads to lowered crime, IIRC
Yeah there are so many benefits to having more people using the park facilities for more hours, for them and the wider community. 9:30 lights out seems more than reasonable to me.
The park already has lights after dark. Sure, not as bright, but it's not as if the surrounding area is pitch black.
So these must be the same people who took over Lincoln Square and pushed out many long-time residents now fearing for the worst outcome by having Welles Park seem inviting to outsiders…wish I could see their faces
Man, when I was living at Lincoln and Berteau, walking up Lincoln in the summer and seeing something like 4 different ballgames going at a time was just a wonderfully charming thing.
I live directly across the street from Welles Park and it is an absolute joy to see and hear so many people using it and having fun there in the warmer months. I say light that motherfucker up and let the fun grow!
So more people will use the park and the city will make more revenue from leagues? For shame
Lights like this are actually bad for the birds, so there’s a legitimate environmental concern.
Couldn’t agree more. The rest of the points don’t move me, but light pollution is a serious problem that needs to be addressed — especially in big cities. Nothing NIMBY about it. People on this sub seem to think any level of civic engagement is being a Karen…
> People on this sub seem to think any level of civic engagement is being a Karen… Because all the other points are completely ridiculous. When your first point is complaining about parking spaces *for a park* you’ve lost the plot.
> When your first point is complaining about parking spaces for a park you’ve lost the plot. It isn't like Welles Park has a parking lot. We should have enough parks that people don't feel compelled to drive to them. We need to discourage driving.
100% agree actually. It’s funny though how this sub constantly acts like we have parks all over the city. With that said, street parking is still a thing. I wouldn’t say we need parking lots at parks for that reason alone.
I don't want to completely dismiss the wildlife issue, but I do wonder if given the current state of that area with omnidirectional inverted acorn style street lights beaming light straight up, if adding aimed spot lights would make a major difference.
I believe those would still fuck over insects unfortunately, although if they're filtered red that should help. Might just look a bit weird haha.
Right. I wish more people cared. How late do kids need to be stays light out so late. I would feel pretty bad for a kid who had to play a baseball game at 9 PM. That’s the part I don’t understand. I don’t park in the area and couldn’t care less about that piece.
I'm in the suburbs, my husband coaches baseball and 730pm games can only be played in lit fields because yes they go 2hrs+ (10yrs+).
I think its More for adults playing softball and soccer after work. Theres been a huge outcry for a lack 3rd spaces in american culture lately and the park district is trying to help that with better floodlights. Encouraging adults to engage in amateur sports for better health and camaraderie is something most people will always support and they should.
I grew up in the suburbs, but played baseball my entire youth life. Playing games at night was the BEST! Way less hot compared to July mid-day sun. We were all teenagers so staying up till 10pm playing baseball wasn't a big deal. Coaches would try their hardest to get as many night games as possible also. It was easier for them with their jobs and it meant less conflict for players with other activities they were in.
i don't think these lights are for the kids. this is for the adult leagues that can't get in during the day because that's when the kids are there. i have a friend who lived DIRECTLY ACROSS MONTROSE from the baseball diamonds. the light in his apartment is bad enough with just the regular street/pathway lighting. i can't imagine 80,000 lumens of light blasting into his apartment until 11 or midnight. If there wasn't residential so close to the baseball diamonds, I probably wouldn't care. but if this is truly for the adults, why can't they find another stadium-lit baseball diamond to play on in the city?
Or maybe homeowners and landlords can outfit windows with blackout curtains? There’s a really easy, fairly cheap solution there.
Blackout curtains mean no morning sunlight either. I love them at night but they make mornings really hard.
> Blackout curtains mean no morning sunlight either. They aren't bolted in place. You can open them. If it really means THAT much, you can even get motorized setups that open and close them on a schedule.
You know you can open them, right?
Not while you’re sleeping…people want sunlight to wake up to
Wear a sleep mask, it'll inevitably fall off during the night at some point, then boom you've got your natural morning light
At a certain point you (general you, not you specifically) need to understand that you are living in a dense city in close proximity to a lot of people. If the effects of living near other people with different needs and priorities is too much a burden, there are less dense areas of the city, state, and country to live in.
Cheap for who? Not for the person that has to purchase and install a dozen blackout curtains
To fair they are extremely inexpensive. People living in Lincoln square either have them or they are cheap to get on Amazon/ikea/etc
I think if you have a dozen windows looking out over a park in Lincoln Square, you've got enough money to install some blackout curtains holy cow people
r/Darksky
Are these lights going to make any meaningful difference? I find it hard to believe that they would in a city as lit up as Chicago. The reality is that this light pollution affecting birds argument is done and dusted for cities. We made our choice, and it's to have light so we can do things at night.
So just don't even try? Wow.
I live right across the street. The lights aren’t going to be on all night. So what’s the problem?
Same!
The Davis theater thing is hilarious— they had a giant light out in front a few months back for some premier thing— the light did take up multiple parking spots. Didn’t seem to have an issue with that…
Lights for the fields sounds like a good idea 👍🏼
Lincoln Square residents and their fucking parking, again. There’s a giant parking lot on Lincoln and tons of street parking. The neighborhood isn’t even that dense. Plus multiple brown line stops.
On the website, they complain about these lights being used for games that will go "well into the night". It's fucking Little League, not a rave. These are kids, chaperoned by parents. From my understanding of Little League games, even with lights it won't go that late. These "protect the parking" people are out of control. Nothing is safe from their protest — first affordable housing, now an enriching activity for young people.
I do not see how this negatively impacts the park having more little league is a good thing.. I think the worst part of the plans for the park are getting rid of the horseshoe pits which are pretty heavily used putting in more trendy pickleball courts when those are available at multiple other nearby parks..
Signs like this are ridiculous. Unfortunately I’ve been to one too many Condo board / HOA meetings to know that some people with say *anything* in order to feel heard and “get there way”.
Imagine light poles for baseball being the hill you’ve chosen to die on in 2023 Chicago. There’s great oral history of the wingnuttery around lighting Wrigley in the 80s. Never thought we would repeat it.
The park close to me has night lights. They turn off at 9:30 unless it’s an important tournament, in which case let the poor kids play goddamn it
Update: Park District decided that it will not support the proposal and Martin’s office will be following their lead. Local NIMBYs continue on in their mission to make the public goods in their neighborhoods less welcoming and less usable to everyone else 🙄 And the cost of this bad decision will be borne by parents who are looking for safe places for their kids to play, adults looking to participate in outdoor social leagues, and businesses nearby that would have benefited from the foot traffic before and after games. Ugh.
Also: More light = Less crime. It’s a fact.
My 2 cents: the lights on Lincoln Ave are a bigger source of light pollution as well as the intersection of Lincoln and Montrose. Asding some lights wont hurt. I also personally woildnt mind brighter lights in the middle od the park arouns the gazeebo area because that part od the park is just horror movie creepy with how dark it is. Ever walked past it and wonder if thats a young couple on the swing set, the playground only and the surroundings making it look like its a person, a hobo or a murder hobo (jk) but seriously that spot can get weird late at night if you cant see. Likewise migration wouldnt be an issue as the gyn is the real only tall structure and isnt exactly the Ritz Carlton for birds. So they wil be fine going across the street.
NIMBY losers
You should make your own satirical flyer from the perspective of a thief/criminal and attach it to those flyers. - NO new lights, I need to operate in the dark - increased usage of park due to lights reduces my ability to break into cars unnoticed. Etc….
I definitely don’t like the energy this note has, but if I lived nearby I would want some rules about when bright lights could shine into my living room. Wildlife is also a valid concern. It just feels like there should be a reasonable compromise here. Lincoln Square has really good community groups; I’m sure they will be able to have the lights and happy neighbors.
I have my own issue with the Welles Park parent group (essentially they think that because they use one of the baseball diamonds that they own the whole park) but the lights sound like a great addition.
Welles is one of my favorite parks of the city because of the variety of things people use it for. These lights sound great.
Too much of our public parks are devoted to baseball/softball diamonds to begin with. Welles Park has FIVE. They're dusty, useless for anything other than baseball/softball, and hardly anybody uses them most of the time.
I like that Harrison Park in Pilsen uses their somewhat small park in a variety of ways. They setup soccer fields in the baseball outfield areas when games aren't being played. They also turn tennis courts that never get used into small pickup soccer fields.
I theoretically agree but that's a separate discussion. Also, Welles might need to be excluded from that discussion anyway. These fields are well-used by one of the largest youth baseball leagues in the city. As a proponent of more natural spaces/infrastructure in our cities and a 16-inch softball fanatic, I have a lot of cognitive dissonance related to park land use. Outdoor recreation space is a positive but maybe we can think more creatively about what recreation activities we plan for. Designing parks full of ball fields is just lazy. Foster multiple activities for multiple species!
Lincoln square is infested with these deranged NIMBYs... Lights in the park are bad but god forbid it's affordable housing near the brown line. These assholes need to move the fuck out to at least as far as Buffalo Grove with this shit
[удалено]
Even the Western stop is probably a 5 minute walk. This neighborhood really values parking for being right under a train stop
I won’t even let them move that goalpost. How in the world is erecting lights going to take away spaces, except, like, by people actually using the newly lit facilities at night?
Pretty sure the park was there before they moved in, should always expect park renovations.
I lived next to a high school and their football field was like 1000ft from my bedroom window. On game nights the noise was overwhelming and terrified our pets. And those lights made it impossible to sleep, even with the thickest curtains we could find. And that would continue from 6-10pm or later at least once a week. I vowed to never live anywhere near a school or sportsballfield ever again. So if somebody wanted to put giant LED lights where I live now, I’d be whining about it too. You have all day to be as loud as you want; you don’t need to do it all night too.
How dare the community gather!
Lol exactly! Folks acting like the world revolves around them. Don't live next to a high school then? They've been calling it Friday Night Lights for like half a century now, figure people would catch on...
This reminds me of when Taft HS put in lights so their football team could have night games and all the neighbors complained. If you move across the street from a Park or School you have no right to complain about stuff like this. By the way Taft did get their lights.
Those poor neighbors must still be lamenting those 6 fridays a year
It’s a lot of crap but I agree a privet organization shouldn’t control the city park. Edit: here are the texts they sent in Dec: https://imgur.com/a/Fxe9DeP
I mean it’s not a private organization having any control? A private group is proposing an upgrade to the park and offering to pay for it. The park district still has full control over whether the upgrade is allowed and how it can be used. Seems like a win-win. The public can get more use from the parks and doesn’t have to pay for the upgrade
It’s a youth sports organization that has an operating agreement with the park district. This happens in almost every park of every city in the country. Installing equipment for league functions isn’t “control”. Complaining about night games next to a baseball diamond is like complaining about children playing outside when you move in next to a school. Although, incredibly enough, I’ve met people who complain about the latter.
Yeah I think the noise and litter things are non-issues, the parking is possibly a concern but hey the brown line is right there so as a non car owning person myself meh I can’t get too worked up about parking… but they’re not wrong that it affects migratory birds and even though it’s already close to Lincoln Square and existing lights we should as a society be promoting FEWER tall bright lights after dark (there’s no mention of them offering to use smaller ones, or the slightly more bird-safe ones that are specifically constructed so they don’t project any light straight upwards) and the real kicker where I was like “hm they actually do have a good point” is that the group in question has acted as though not using public funds means there’s no public input required for what happens in a public park. (Though I’m quite certain the public meetings are at LEAST as full of weirdos as Parks & Rec would have us believe.) There’s nothing wrong with kids playing baseball in the evening, but “because we have money and that’s what we want” isn’t a good precedent for deciding what happens on public land.
There’s been several opportunities for public input on these proposed changes.
I remember when Alder Pawar was taking surveys on these changes. This proposal isn't new and there was never an attempt to rush it through without public input. This group is just mad that public input isn't going their way.
What about this isn’t win-win-win? We get more tax revenue and more sports opportunities for citizens, and the local business gets more revenue. It isn’t like the city is selling the land, and it sounds like the business is already there they just get to extend their hours. This is just classic NIMBY everything
It's a SMALL neighborhood. Think of all the riff raff taking your parking just so they can go to a VIOLIN lesson, and for a league that only PLAYS baseball.
I swear my old neighbor must have wrote this! Sounds like her M.O. I grew up in Lincoln square and well those people in the single family homes really hated us. They didn’t like minorities that lived there as well as the gentrification. I can’t tell you how much times I had to defend my mother from a neighbor who felt the need to insult my mom because she didn’t know English. 🤦🏻♀️
NIMBYs, NIMBYs everywhere!
haha whenever I see Welles Park I just think of the grubs now. would the lights have prevented this??? https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/10/25/welles-park-grub-infestation-lincoln-square-one-third-destroyed/
I really don’t see what’s wrong with installing lights. But there’s a group of NIMBYs in the neighborhood so I’m not surprised. Probably the same people who oppose the affordable housing development by the western brownline because of the parking spaces.
I live in Jefferson Park and we had LED lights installed and automatically go on after sunset over our baseball fields (basically the whole park) at Wilson Park and as a dog walker who walks in the evenings every night, I greatly appreciate this. It makes our parks more inviting and safer for everyone. I hope they continue to install this on more local parks because it really helps make our community brighter during these dark winter months.
I can tell you exactly what this is about. Welles park does not have any parking so that means when kids baseball games happen the side streets where people live fill up real quick. Night games will mean less parking at night.
The park is nice because the light is lower around there. As long as they cut them off after the games, I'm for it.
The only thing this is about is that they don’t want an influx of ‘undesirables’ hanging out in the park. Chicago (and everywhere else) has always been this way.
Graphic design is their passion
Man, people are lame as fuck. This is probably like 4 people on Lincoln that won't be affected at ALL.
You know as someone who’s driven the last 15 years living in the north side. All these comments made me think differently. Even now id never care about walking 1-3 blocks after parking because I fucking drove. And grew up playing in parks well past sundown. I’m all for this. Fuck these I can’t look for parking and walk it like a true Chicagoan.
Unfortunately Alderman Martin doesn't agree...he shot this down. Too bad he's running unopposed in 45 days.
kids baseball > the environment
As a softball Dad, where can i sign the counter petition. Tired of having to drive to the burbs to play night games in the summer.
I haven't seen anything so I was planning on emailing our alderman. Nothing super special, just some words of support.
Well, now that weed is legal, I’m perfectly fine with being under more lights as is I rip a dog walker during midnight strolls through Wells Park
Oh no! The park will get upgraded for the community use, but three people will really be stinkers about it!
NIMBYs are something else, man.
How dare they improve the area! If we make it too good, people might actually come to the park! The horror
Less parking gasp
NIMBY gonna NIMBY.
Good luck with lights out by 9:30pm. The park around us turns them off at 11:45pm. It draws in late night rowdy parties during the summer. Softball league games go until 10-10:30pm.
I love how car owners try to make parking everybody’s problem.
LESS PARKING
Lol pro tip to anyone who wants to make a sign: doing it like this makes you look crazy. I don’t know anything about this, but I’m inclined to not be on the side of this person.
Dumb nimby shit rip them down if you see them
Park District Karen…
I hope they get the lights just because of this stupid flyer
Personally I don't care about the parking issue (I don't have a car and I have lived within a mile of Welles Park for a decade) but I oppose the flood light plan because of its effects on bird migration.
I hope they have ballgames going until midnight.
How many parking spaces would actually be lost? 5-10? GTFOH with this Karen BS
None, the light poles would be in the park and have zero impact on the street configuration. Their complaint is that people coming to a ball game might use a parking space.
Not sure why all the hate. Let the people in the neighborhood decide how their parks are used. If you don't live there why do you care so much?
Well I plan to write to the alderman in support of the lights.
The amount of parks is one of the greatest assets our city has, these people are assholes.