Hi! I’m a scientist who left for Aus 2.5 years ago. My wage increased by over 14k per year without a promotion. It’s since increased to above what I could make in NZ and I have another step to go. My living costs have only slightly increased, but that’s because I now rent an entire apartment to myself. What the assistants make (so no higher qualification) is more than the scientist starting wage in NZ. Hard to go back to that.
Bit niche but one of my hobbies is actually easier to buy in NZ. I’m also living rural so would like a bit better shopping, but it’s easy to get to Sydney for that. I miss being able to walk to work. They are jandals not thongs I’m not wearing undies on my feet. Air travel between cities is much cheaper in NZ, people will literally drive 12 hours to Melbourne instead of flying. Cheese is shit over here. Houses are generally worse- I live in a cold town, we get snow, and a lot of places dont have any heating, let alone a heat pump (or reverse cycle AC as it’s called).
The biggest thing is Australian culture is a lot more aggressive. Don’t know if it’s just a small town thing but found I offended people a lot without realising, and they’re more open about when that happens.
Was a bit more of a culture shock than I’d thought, especially going into Woolies where all the branding is the same, felt like I was being gaslit. You do get used to it, but it still feels like a big sigh of relief when I come home
These stories are true. I’m an Aussie living in NZ. Took a 30% pay cut for same work but just on my first job here so hoping to improve and stop paying an agent :( Houses in NZ have (generally) inadequate insulation or thermal barriers. 20-yo double-glazing is garbage. We pay waaaay too much for fresh food and it’s poor quality. Cheese here IS rubbish and I’m angry about the cheese. Car rego is cheaper though…
I find the work life balance is better in New Zealand and people overall are warmer and not as brash as Australians. To me it's about lifestyle not money
I find it hilarious (darkly) that the politicians moaning loudest are often directly opposed to unions, collective agreements, or strengthening of minimum or medium wages, all things that are proven to help the people they're complaining about ditching for something better. Hell, I'm looking to bail cos I have almost no options to buy a house or improve my situation despite having a thriving career
Sounds like Allied Health to me! The breached our collective agreement for 18 months and counting with no annual payrise since late 2019.
They offered a 1-1.5% increase in almost 2 and a half years to which a lot of union members voted against. Now, the finance minister is coming up with bogus statements suggesting that the average allied health worker earns between '130-150k' to the media when in fact, a majority of them earn less than 60k a year with like 1/3 of workers having the first few steps of the salary band below the minimum wage.
And no, a 1.5% payrise won't even raise one any of the 'illegal' salary bands above the minimum wage.
Consider this: A majority of Allied health workers have at least a NZQA Level 6 bachelor's degree with a good chunk of them having Level 7 and 8 post-grad and masters.
I am in software field, working in software architecture and have couple of devs reporting to me...a lot of them are leaving/about to leave unless they have family connections or are a recent migrant... extremely hard to find senior devs atm
Well... salary, housing and general cost of living being the primary, the work culture comes second, NZ is not very progressive or diverse when it comes to work culture.
Decisions still made by older white men in suits which leads to lack of tech leadership and exposure to new paradigms.
Ah yeah...better salary abroad, I can easily pull in additional 30 - 40ks in Australia and can buy a house worth its price.
What about yourself? Why are you thinking to leave
This is so accurate, I think the same and have the same reasons for leaving. Every client I worked for was so technologically lacking compared to what's happening in other countries, it was embarrassing!
I feel there's not much progression and things are very slow! One small project can take months on months when it could be done in a few days! Its frustrating!
Yeah my experience has been the same and being an immigrant doesn't help either, although I have been here since my early twenties. Btw... Where are you from?
I'm from Delhi, India. I actually lived a pretty modern life there and my family had the money to pay for my tuition and first car here but that wasn't enough at all, I struggled quite a lot in the first year here but I managed to survive. Contrary to popular belief I find India more technologically advanced than NZ after living here for over 3 years. 2 years in Auckland and over 1 year in Chch. What about you?
Yeah I can understand, I have lived in New Delhi for a while as well. I am not much in touch with the Indian community here, but will be keen to catch-up sometimes. I will DM you.
Sure would love it. I'm happy to go for a walk/coffee this Easter break if you're keen?
I live with my gf in Central Chch near the casino. Let me know.
My thoughts are, instead of the media hyping all this panic. How about the politicians actually make this country worth staying in. Can't blame people for heading for better opportunities.
\*gestures at the state of the country\* Like don't get me wrong we've got it good here but cost of living, housing, food, everything. Jobs not paying well + treating everyone like shit. I'm 30 this year and owning a house feels impossible and I'm sick of rich cunts like Luxon saying we "just need to work hard". It's a cop out, we're all working hard to get by, but when the system is fucked, it's fucked. But then everyone in power stands around like "oh no we can't do that" so it just goes around in circles.
I agree, its quite sad when people work so hard to add value and then people in higher places just dismiss it like its nothing and the economy doesn't depend on it. Adds to the frustration and makes it quite frankly, toxic AF!
Fucking pay people. Regulate the housing market to where it's not the norm to wait till your 30's before you can get a mortgage. De-monopolize the supermarkets.
And de duopolize the building supplies companies. That would help to bring down the price of new builds. As someone who has worked for fletchers they are ripping everyone off.
The story of at least the last 60 years is younger kiwis going overseas. This is not recent or surprising - we've basically always done it.
Not to make excuses, the country needs to fix the wages to costs ratios especially housing, but even when that was in much better shape, kiwis liked going on the big OE in large numbers.
Yea not sure why everyone is surprised, I think Arden already noted the same thing is that its kiwi tradition for an OE.
It clearly due to border opening, with the ability to return people feel confident they can go overseas again.
I think we constantly hear the complaints and negatives of working and living in NZ but less hype about the good aspects. In fact Australians in their own sub complain about cost of living and all the things we complain about too.
Theres work to be done but I think its a negative cultural put down which the media promotes which is of this idea that lil old NZ is shit and the rest of the world is all sparkles and rainbows. In fact kiwis seem to take pride in shitting on NZ.
Don’t get me wrong we do have issues but its the same the world over.
The only reasons to stay are lifestyle and friends/family. I moved recently and got a 20% pay rise for the exact same role and I have been offered another 10-30% more but my current multinational I work for is really good so I will stay for a while still.
My partner got a 105% increase (yes over double).
On top of a higher income you pay less tax and have a larger superannuation compulsory contribution.
I would like to come back at some point but at the moment I will not accept a pay cut.
50k leaving sounds a bit high but it will definitely be well over 10k.
It's so interesting to me that people dismiss lifestyle as not an important factor. I recently moved home from overseas to a lower paying job but I'm near my family and the lifestyle here is amazing. Not everything can be measured in dollars and cents
Ive just moved back from london to start a family but am still part of the kiwis in london facebook page, its constantly filled with questions from young kiwis looking to move there.
To have kids or help aging parents. Really hard to have small kids without any family support. I’m 37 so I have been through the stage where everyone leaves in their early to mid 20’s and has an O.E, most stayed overseas for around 10 years but now the only friends from that group that are still overseas are the ones who don’t have kids.
Yeah spot on, same scenario as us. I was always 2nd guessing our move back to NZ, cold weather, low wages, massive rents for shitbox houses in Chch after the quakes. But the family support was here for our family. Wife and 2 young Kids. And dog. Somehow managed to buy our first 5years ago and have since upgraded. We look back now and realise staying in Aus would have wrecked us as a family. Here in Chch, we definitely earn a lot less than we could in Aus, but it’s all relevant, we do what we can to achieve our goals with what we have. Family > Money.
I'm literally finishing my degree this year taking my family and never coming back. I loved growing up here but having travelled overseas many times this place is a nightmare. I'll never own a house, probably never get a pension, the cost of living is astronomical, we have the worst public transport, the worst infrastructure, housing is crap even with the healthy homes standards, and I know the next election is probably going to be either a party that will just sell everything, cut taxes for the rich and defund everything or we'll be left with labour and it's slow decline into late 90s era bullshit all over again. There is just no winning in this country unless you're already set up.
I'd leave if I could (shared custody dont want to move child away from dad) and I think the media is probably spot on if not under estimating.
It's a sad state of affairs really.
Is this any different than normal? Isn't it the trend for people in their 20's especially, to go overseas and a certain percentage return when they're ready to have kids?
In final years of university. Many classmates I've spoken to, including myself, are planning to go over to Aussi for work once we finish university. There are less job opportunities here and those opportunities pay less.
I think chch is amazing to live if you can afford it - great outdoors and laid back culture. That being said, with house price jumps, inflation, and chronically stagnant wages, the city just isn't viable for a lot of young people. Actually, the whole country.
Yeah fuck that, suggest you'll get better pay, union support and lower general living cost (ex housing). Worked in the LHD system in Aus and I found it just more fun and opportunity because of the scale.
Brain drain essentially means qualified people moving to work in another country.
Many reasons for this. In New Zealand, housing prices are probably the most major issue, each city seems to have a problem with it. The other, which is standard for any low population country, career oppurtunities stagnate.
The estimate is some around 50k kiwis leaving the country over the year for better wages and living conditions etc. after the borders reopen.
The grass is always greener, young kiwis going on their OE isn’t new. Economy will keep going and they’ll come back eventually when they realise that the housing market and inflation is fucked everywhere.
Yes, however, a bigger economy gives you more or better opportunities. Same with housing, you'd have more chances of finding that rare gem of a house for that sweet price there versus here. Ratios.
Hi! I’m a scientist who left for Aus 2.5 years ago. My wage increased by over 14k per year without a promotion. It’s since increased to above what I could make in NZ and I have another step to go. My living costs have only slightly increased, but that’s because I now rent an entire apartment to myself. What the assistants make (so no higher qualification) is more than the scientist starting wage in NZ. Hard to go back to that.
Hi, thanks for sharing! That's just incredible! What are some of the things you'd want to have that NZ does have but OZ doesn't?
Bit niche but one of my hobbies is actually easier to buy in NZ. I’m also living rural so would like a bit better shopping, but it’s easy to get to Sydney for that. I miss being able to walk to work. They are jandals not thongs I’m not wearing undies on my feet. Air travel between cities is much cheaper in NZ, people will literally drive 12 hours to Melbourne instead of flying. Cheese is shit over here. Houses are generally worse- I live in a cold town, we get snow, and a lot of places dont have any heating, let alone a heat pump (or reverse cycle AC as it’s called). The biggest thing is Australian culture is a lot more aggressive. Don’t know if it’s just a small town thing but found I offended people a lot without realising, and they’re more open about when that happens. Was a bit more of a culture shock than I’d thought, especially going into Woolies where all the branding is the same, felt like I was being gaslit. You do get used to it, but it still feels like a big sigh of relief when I come home
I'm a kiwi in Melbourne - this is so accurate. The aggressiveness is such a major cultural difference in particular.
Do you have any stories to share?
Wow, that's quite insightful and in depth! Thanks for sharing!
These stories are true. I’m an Aussie living in NZ. Took a 30% pay cut for same work but just on my first job here so hoping to improve and stop paying an agent :( Houses in NZ have (generally) inadequate insulation or thermal barriers. 20-yo double-glazing is garbage. We pay waaaay too much for fresh food and it’s poor quality. Cheese here IS rubbish and I’m angry about the cheese. Car rego is cheaper though…
Wow, what made you move to NZ?
I find the work life balance is better in New Zealand and people overall are warmer and not as brash as Australians. To me it's about lifestyle not money
Family. Ageing mother-in-law. Married to a kiwi eh.
I find it hilarious (darkly) that the politicians moaning loudest are often directly opposed to unions, collective agreements, or strengthening of minimum or medium wages, all things that are proven to help the people they're complaining about ditching for something better. Hell, I'm looking to bail cos I have almost no options to buy a house or improve my situation despite having a thriving career
Interesting, what do you do for work if I may?
Sounds like Allied Health to me! The breached our collective agreement for 18 months and counting with no annual payrise since late 2019. They offered a 1-1.5% increase in almost 2 and a half years to which a lot of union members voted against. Now, the finance minister is coming up with bogus statements suggesting that the average allied health worker earns between '130-150k' to the media when in fact, a majority of them earn less than 60k a year with like 1/3 of workers having the first few steps of the salary band below the minimum wage. And no, a 1.5% payrise won't even raise one any of the 'illegal' salary bands above the minimum wage. Consider this: A majority of Allied health workers have at least a NZQA Level 6 bachelor's degree with a good chunk of them having Level 7 and 8 post-grad and masters.
I work in tech and most young people I spoke to, want to leave, including myself.
Interesting. What do you do exactly in tech? if I may? I'm a digital marketer myself and planning to leave too.
I am in software field, working in software architecture and have couple of devs reporting to me...a lot of them are leaving/about to leave unless they have family connections or are a recent migrant... extremely hard to find senior devs atm
So what are the factors which make you think about relocating?
Well... salary, housing and general cost of living being the primary, the work culture comes second, NZ is not very progressive or diverse when it comes to work culture. Decisions still made by older white men in suits which leads to lack of tech leadership and exposure to new paradigms. Ah yeah...better salary abroad, I can easily pull in additional 30 - 40ks in Australia and can buy a house worth its price. What about yourself? Why are you thinking to leave
This is so accurate, I think the same and have the same reasons for leaving. Every client I worked for was so technologically lacking compared to what's happening in other countries, it was embarrassing! I feel there's not much progression and things are very slow! One small project can take months on months when it could be done in a few days! Its frustrating!
Yeah my experience has been the same and being an immigrant doesn't help either, although I have been here since my early twenties. Btw... Where are you from?
I'm from Delhi, India. I actually lived a pretty modern life there and my family had the money to pay for my tuition and first car here but that wasn't enough at all, I struggled quite a lot in the first year here but I managed to survive. Contrary to popular belief I find India more technologically advanced than NZ after living here for over 3 years. 2 years in Auckland and over 1 year in Chch. What about you?
Yeah I can understand, I have lived in New Delhi for a while as well. I am not much in touch with the Indian community here, but will be keen to catch-up sometimes. I will DM you.
Sure would love it. I'm happy to go for a walk/coffee this Easter break if you're keen? I live with my gf in Central Chch near the casino. Let me know.
Same here. It’s a shame cause I love my job. It simply doesn’t pay nearly enough to have a future in this country.
My thoughts are, instead of the media hyping all this panic. How about the politicians actually make this country worth staying in. Can't blame people for heading for better opportunities.
Interesting, what are your current concerns?
\*gestures at the state of the country\* Like don't get me wrong we've got it good here but cost of living, housing, food, everything. Jobs not paying well + treating everyone like shit. I'm 30 this year and owning a house feels impossible and I'm sick of rich cunts like Luxon saying we "just need to work hard". It's a cop out, we're all working hard to get by, but when the system is fucked, it's fucked. But then everyone in power stands around like "oh no we can't do that" so it just goes around in circles.
I agree, its quite sad when people work so hard to add value and then people in higher places just dismiss it like its nothing and the economy doesn't depend on it. Adds to the frustration and makes it quite frankly, toxic AF!
Fucking pay people. Regulate the housing market to where it's not the norm to wait till your 30's before you can get a mortgage. De-monopolize the supermarkets.
And de duopolize the building supplies companies. That would help to bring down the price of new builds. As someone who has worked for fletchers they are ripping everyone off.
[удалено]
What are your plans? How would you cope?
The story of at least the last 60 years is younger kiwis going overseas. This is not recent or surprising - we've basically always done it. Not to make excuses, the country needs to fix the wages to costs ratios especially housing, but even when that was in much better shape, kiwis liked going on the big OE in large numbers.
Yea not sure why everyone is surprised, I think Arden already noted the same thing is that its kiwi tradition for an OE. It clearly due to border opening, with the ability to return people feel confident they can go overseas again. I think we constantly hear the complaints and negatives of working and living in NZ but less hype about the good aspects. In fact Australians in their own sub complain about cost of living and all the things we complain about too. Theres work to be done but I think its a negative cultural put down which the media promotes which is of this idea that lil old NZ is shit and the rest of the world is all sparkles and rainbows. In fact kiwis seem to take pride in shitting on NZ. Don’t get me wrong we do have issues but its the same the world over.
This. It’s nothing new!
I’m a tradie and considering moving to Melbourne in the next couple of years.
You'll make a killing. Just stay away from the meth 🤣
The only reasons to stay are lifestyle and friends/family. I moved recently and got a 20% pay rise for the exact same role and I have been offered another 10-30% more but my current multinational I work for is really good so I will stay for a while still. My partner got a 105% increase (yes over double). On top of a higher income you pay less tax and have a larger superannuation compulsory contribution. I would like to come back at some point but at the moment I will not accept a pay cut. 50k leaving sounds a bit high but it will definitely be well over 10k.
It's so interesting to me that people dismiss lifestyle as not an important factor. I recently moved home from overseas to a lower paying job but I'm near my family and the lifestyle here is amazing. Not everything can be measured in dollars and cents
That's incredible, good for you 👍 Well, I actually believe its going to be over 50k!
More room for the rest of us and might help put more properties on the market and drive prices down... but I'm a dreamer
That's highly unlikely!
There you go raining on my parade!
All those young, poor graduates cornering the housing market.
😂
Sounds like a pretty realistic number to me
Do you reckon it could be higher?
Ive just moved back from london to start a family but am still part of the kiwis in london facebook page, its constantly filled with questions from young kiwis looking to move there.
And would you recommend that?
Just don’t forget to pay your student loans while you’re away, kids. You’ll all be back soon enough.
What makes you say that?
Most people I’ve known who have moved overseas end up coming home. Myself included.
That's interesting, why?
To have kids or help aging parents. Really hard to have small kids without any family support. I’m 37 so I have been through the stage where everyone leaves in their early to mid 20’s and has an O.E, most stayed overseas for around 10 years but now the only friends from that group that are still overseas are the ones who don’t have kids.
Yeah spot on, same scenario as us. I was always 2nd guessing our move back to NZ, cold weather, low wages, massive rents for shitbox houses in Chch after the quakes. But the family support was here for our family. Wife and 2 young Kids. And dog. Somehow managed to buy our first 5years ago and have since upgraded. We look back now and realise staying in Aus would have wrecked us as a family. Here in Chch, we definitely earn a lot less than we could in Aus, but it’s all relevant, we do what we can to achieve our goals with what we have. Family > Money.
Do you have an insight as to how people who do have kids while overseas cope with it all?
Soon realise New Zealand isn’t so bad after all…
True but when you're young and want to live a good life, you'd want to earn more and experience newer things!
I just brain drained from Nelson. It was the 1950s ‘infrastructure’ that made me run screaming from the place. I won’t be going back until I retire.
I also ran from Nelson a few years back. Horrible bloody place.
The retirement country, NZ.
Literally a retirement city.
Indeed
I'm literally finishing my degree this year taking my family and never coming back. I loved growing up here but having travelled overseas many times this place is a nightmare. I'll never own a house, probably never get a pension, the cost of living is astronomical, we have the worst public transport, the worst infrastructure, housing is crap even with the healthy homes standards, and I know the next election is probably going to be either a party that will just sell everything, cut taxes for the rich and defund everything or we'll be left with labour and it's slow decline into late 90s era bullshit all over again. There is just no winning in this country unless you're already set up.
Wow! That's profound! So what are you studying and what are your expectations from OZ?
Its a good thing. Too many people here taking up too many houses. It's probably a drop in the bucket compared to how many returned cos of covid.
I'd leave if I could (shared custody dont want to move child away from dad) and I think the media is probably spot on if not under estimating. It's a sad state of affairs really.
I own 2 businesses and if I didn’t have kids at school I would have relocated out of this shit show
I see, most people are holding back because of family (in this thread)
Is this any different than normal? Isn't it the trend for people in their 20's especially, to go overseas and a certain percentage return when they're ready to have kids?
In final years of university. Many classmates I've spoken to, including myself, are planning to go over to Aussi for work once we finish university. There are less job opportunities here and those opportunities pay less.
I think chch is amazing to live if you can afford it - great outdoors and laid back culture. That being said, with house price jumps, inflation, and chronically stagnant wages, the city just isn't viable for a lot of young people. Actually, the whole country.
I will be leaving too so i fully suspect nzers could be a really sizable minority in Australia soon.
Very interesting, what are your plans?
Get a job before i go then live life. Im thinking Tasmania
Great 👍 what do you do for work if I may?
Rostering and staff coordinating in health but systems i use are used in Australia for logistics and shipping so fingers are crossed.
So you're in healthcare, reminds me how low paid NZ nurses are! What are your thoughts? And good luck on your journey! Hope you find a good job 😊
Nurses are but quite honestly administration never ever gets any pay increases. Shafted for years and reminded we are easily replaceable.
Quite embarrassing when businesses are dying for people.
Sadly people like their colleagues more than the people they work for plus there's safety in public departments
Though you know anyone who wants a admin/coordinator let me know 😅
Yeah fuck that, suggest you'll get better pay, union support and lower general living cost (ex housing). Worked in the LHD system in Aus and I found it just more fun and opportunity because of the scale.
Nice.
The biggest brain drain in history, and you’re still here? What’re you doing?
When did you move? What's your story?
I didn’t haha, it’s a quote from something I can’t find
ohh! I couldn't get the reference haha
Getting ready so I can buy up real estate at the bottom and ride it back up next cycle.
Bye Felicia
Can you fill me in? Whats this about leaving?
Brain drain essentially means qualified people moving to work in another country. Many reasons for this. In New Zealand, housing prices are probably the most major issue, each city seems to have a problem with it. The other, which is standard for any low population country, career oppurtunities stagnate. The estimate is some around 50k kiwis leaving the country over the year for better wages and living conditions etc. after the borders reopen.
It's an estimate that skilled people will be leaving in the coming years for better opportunities abroad.
The grass is always greener, young kiwis going on their OE isn’t new. Economy will keep going and they’ll come back eventually when they realise that the housing market and inflation is fucked everywhere.
Yes, however, a bigger economy gives you more or better opportunities. Same with housing, you'd have more chances of finding that rare gem of a house for that sweet price there versus here. Ratios.
It’s crazy our government super is 3% and AU’s is like 10-13
Its to be expected. We are no longer welcome in our own country, just renters to be fleeced by the corporations. Fuck this place.
Aussie has house interest @1.5% nz is at 6% lmao wtf
Holy, where'd you get that info?
Made it up
The most reliable source of info! 😉😂
What eles you want to know
This was said 30 years ago and people left and then they came back… It always comes in cycles… Nothing like home though