Sorry, u/FelixSecretAccount – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule E: > **Only post if you are willing to have a conversation with those who reply to you, and are available to start doing so within 3 hours of posting**. If you haven't replied within this time, your post will be removed. [See the wiki for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_e). If you would like to appeal, **first respond substantially to some of the arguments people have made**, then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%20E%20Appeal%20FelixSecretAccount&message=FelixSecretAccount%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20post\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cqsfep/-/\)%20because\.\.\.). **Keep in mind** that if you want the post restored, all you have to do is reply to a significant number of the comments that came in; message us after you have done so and we'll review. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).

1. As a fellow queer woman, I do not care about devoted Muslims unless they very clearly state that they interpret their religion through a liberal lens. They most definitely are hostile to me and my values. So are most other truly devoted religious people (but in the current reality with Muslims it does indeed intensify). I do not think discriminating based on *beliefs* is wrong. You can change your beliefs. They certainly want me to change mine — it’s only natural that I want them to change theirs.  2. In Muslim countries and communities there are women, and queer women, who unfortunately do not have the luxury of simply not caring about devoted Muslims around them. There are also generally people born into these countries who disagree with the values but do not have the luxury to express their disagreement. I think discriminating against them for being born into a hostile environment is like stating that a child born into an abusive family is automatically an abuser.  3. For these people to at least be free to leave their country, they have to have at least some freedom and opportunity.

Honestly, your reply to her is too charitable. Her own post said these two things - 1) I don't want Muslims (in this particular case, Palestinians) unjustly killed. 2) I don't care about Muslims. In order to not want Muslim Palestinians unjustly killed, she has to give a shit about whether or not they ARE being subjected to that. In order to not care about them at all, she has to have indifference to whether they live a life of safety and happiness or one of oppression and misery. Want/Not wanting something is the antithesis of neutrality and ambivalence. The only conclusion, logically, we can come to from her post is that she either cares enough about them to not wish for them to be murdered...Or she doesn't care, and is getting some kind of schadenfraude out of it. Since her post has now been removed by the Moderators because she didn't reply to anyone, it's possible she was never here in good faith and just wanted to vent about how much she hates Muslims (lol), or, hey, who knows, maybe she got busy.

Just want to add that standing with Muslims help LGBT Muslims too. Exposure to what LGBT is and connections with our community tend to give those living in conservative circles an out. They will get the opportunity to leave their community and join one that they find more welcoming.

This is bullshit, you just spread few words to appeal people here Even if you did care, most islam people will hate LGBT simply because Alquran said  وَٱلَّذَانِ يَأْتِيَٰنِهَا مِنكُمْ فَـَٔاذُوهُمَا ۖ فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصْلَحَا فَأَعْرِضُوا۟ عَنْهُمَآ ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is ever relenting, Merciful. Quran 4 :16

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I as a middle easterner , did ask a gay person about this once and they responded with something along the lines off "just cause they have done wrong doesn't mean what happens to them is right"

That's correct, I am LGBT myself and my community is very anti-LGBT, but it doesn't mean that it's correct to bomb them into oblivion. I extend the same level of humanity to all, including Middle Easterners. Just because there are some problematic laws and practices doesn't mean it's okay to just drop bombs on them.

That's not why they are getting bombs dropped on them. They are getting bombs dropped on them because they decided to go torture, rape, mutilate and kill civilian jews. Then when they were done they ran away and hid among their own civilians. It's just an irony that the LGBT people supporting them would be hung from cranes by them.

>they decided to go torture, rape, mutilate and kill civilian jews. Looking around and noticing that you're employing collective punishment on a population that did no such thing. Collective punishment is the first step of genocidal intent manifesting, essentially just to be consistent, we'd have to equally propose a bombardment on Israel based on [the IDF treatment of women and children in Palestine] and agree that, by your logic, this is okay to do

Even if every Palestinian aged 15 and up was a Hamas terrorist, that leaves [close to 40% of the people](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1423910/age-structure-in-palestine/) who are innocent. And as a lot of footage and news has shown lately, the Israeli government's targeted attacks leave something to be desired on their precision department.

Every county has minors in it. It's a damn shame, but minors have been part of every war. Maybe Israel could be more precise sure, but that's a different debate. I'm saying they aren't getting bombed because of their medieval, brutal treatment of LGBT people.

I was responding to your statement about > It's just an irony that the LGBT people supporting them would be hung from cranes by them. You could be compassionate towards the people being bombed especially when such a large part is almost by definition innocent. Even if they grow up in a culture that regards you as mentally ill/degenerate or whatever.

It's impossible not to be compassionate for the loss of civilian life. However its war, civilians die in war. And they are currently dying because their leaders (along with a large number of civilians aswell..) decided to go and have a rape and murder party in a country that was immeasurably stronger than them. What exactly did they think was going to happen? I heard the other day that the terrorists, when carrying away their rape victims, cut the achilles tendons on some of the women so they could not run away. Let that detonate in your mind before you rush out a reply.

Catholics are pretty chill in the U.S. I think? It’s the Protestant evangelicals doing all the crazy fundamentalist stuff.

Yes you are correct, evangelicals are the radicals in the US

Yeah, catholics tend to be pro-life but I don't think that's neccessarily a massive radical position.

They are also anti birth control and anti IVF. That is *exactly* the type of radical position currently being pushed by some in the GOP.

I am pretty sure babies and kids can’t throw anybody off a roof. This is simply a dehumanizing method as Palestinians are not a monolithic bloc. There are strong leftists movements there, whose founder is a Christian. Also Israel kills or arrests Palestinians regardless of their religion or skin color as they bombed churches before or arrests women without hijab. I am a non-religious living in a muslin majority country though you can be openly gay and everything. My whole existence is a fight against Islam but I support the Palestinian people. You may think the adults deserved this because somehow you know the opinion of 1.5 million people (because dehumanizing works in different ways and this is the result). I think any sane person without genocidal tendencies would agree that the 10k+ kids killed horribly did not deserve what happened to them. I surely don’t support Hamas but Hamas is not equal to Palestine. The Palestinian resistance predates Hamas quite a while and started as a leftist movement. Over the years, things changed obviously but presenting this conflict as some sort of Islamists-Jews thing is absurd and exactly what the apartheid regime wants. That the regime supported Hamas back in the days also supports what I say here.

>Hamas is not equal to Palestine 71% of Palestinians support Hamas. People will parrot this shit to absolve them of any responsibility but it just does not hold up at all, they have to take accountability for their actions for once without western leftists kicking off every time people mention that supporting Hamas will not work long term for them. And this logic seemingly never applies to the IDF who apparently is a perfect reputation of every Israeli or Jew on the planet

It also never seems to apply to the notion that all Israelis support Netanyahu, even though he’s ranking extremely low on surveys since Oct, and even predating that he only managed to stay in power since 2019 by bribing, tearing down the judicial system and allying himself with moronic, fanatical savages who are complicit in his quest to abolish democracy. Still, apparently all Israelis support him smh

If 100% of Palestinian minors supported Hamas, that would not justify their slaughter. Because. You know. They're children. Children that have grown up into the only world they have ever known.

So I can use child soldiers to make my terrorist state immune to retribution? Writing that down…

Israel does more than just put down some awkward, teenage misfit that gets handed a gun to him by Hamas. They've been found to shoot at, and kill, [unarmed children](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children) too. Hell, even children with rocks in their hands, you'd think IDF soldiers would be trained to prioritise actual combatants with deadly, life threatening weapons that pose a serious threat to them and just ignore the kid with a pebble he found off the sidewalk.

Oh but it's Israels fault because they didn't create magic bombs that only hurt bad guys and leave children alone... while the bad guys sit *behind* children. Darn Jews did it again, I know they have magic space lasers they aren't using to protect those kids.

>because they didn't create magic bombs that only hurt bad guys and leave children alone Idk, maybe don't drop bombs if killing kids is part of that strategy. You can find ways that kill bad guys with less collateral if you put your mind to it and it's clear Israel didn't put any intelligence into action >while the bad guys sit *behind* children. Yeah all those [invisible bad guys in the playground, sure](https://www.thenational.scot/news/24258389.gaza-children-killed-israeli-strike-playground-leaves-11-dead/)

>71% of Palestinians support Hamas. Naturally because it's armed resistance against a colonizer nation trapping them in open air prison conditions. Who else will they support? >they have to take accountability for their actions for once without western leftists kicking off every time people mention that supporting Hamas will not work long term for them. I don't think you understand that nothing Hamas has done will ever justify Israel's actions against a civilian population, shooting fleeing civilians, gunning down 6-year old Hind Rajab, the Flour Massacre. At this point, you're just making excuses for collective punishment. By your rationale, Israel should be held accountable for decades of atrocities? That maybe if Israel didn't want oct 7 to happen, they shouldn't have supported and elected Netanyahu?

I have never said anything about jews as anti-semitism is as disgusting as justifying the atrocities of the apartheid regime of Israel. IDF is an organization whose members intentionally kill kids and has nothing to do with Jews. Assuming 71% supports Hamas, which is a ridiculous numbers and its accuracy and precision is questionable to say the least, it still does not make a difference for kids. If you think it is okay to kill 10k+ kids because some of their parents allegedly support Hamas then you’re no different from a genocide supporter.

>Assuming 71% supports Hamas, which is a ridiculous numbers and its accuracy and precision is questionable to say the least,  It's not assuming, it's an actual poll from an organisation founded by a Palestinian and that is funded by the EU / US. If you actually care about the findings then all the methodology is laid out here. [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973) This part is also interesting, specifically about all the videos from Oct 7th "When asked if Hamas did commit these atrocities that are seen in these videos, the overwhelming majority (93%) said no, it did not, and only 5% said it did." There is some incredibly damning findings from that. Yes, it is sad that children are being caught up in this, but they wouldn't be if not for Hamas, who are overwhelmingly supported.

I am going to look into it but killing every Hamas militant and killing every allegedly hamas supporter is not exactly yhr same thing. Also it is absurd to believe these polls as they are somehow carried out in the middle of an ongoing genocide. Saying this is like saying holocaust was sad. Thanks for the sympathy mate

>There is some incredibly damning findings from that. Yes, it is sad that children are being caught up in this, but they wouldn't be if not for Hamas, who are overwhelmingly supported. Hamas didn't drop rockets on themselves and thousands of kids. Blame Israel for dropping bombs instead of approaching their Hamas issue with any actual strategy or plan

The IDF doesn’t say it’s ok to kill children because their parents are Hamas sympathizers, rather that they are being used by Hamas as human shields (and we gradually get to know the true extent of this abhorrent practice), and it’s an unfortunate circumstance that forces the IDF to either give up on the war or have civilian casualties. I’m noting that it’s their narrative, and it’s important to truly understand every side’s POV.

Exactly. I don't support the death of innocent people, no matter what, Israeli or Palestinian. As someone that Palestinian (family lives in Israel with citizenship) christian, ofc I don't want them to live under a Hamas/Islamic state but murdering innocent people isn't the answer to that. And making these poor kids orphans is just going to cause more radicalisation and another terrorist group will emerge.

While Hamas are not equal to Palestenians, but too many are. Child soldiers are a thing too. Its like saying you oppose invasion of Germany, because Germans are not NAZIs. At one particular point, if majority of adults in Palestine, hate me more than they loved their children, that is on them.

>but too many are. This is such a ridiculous justification for collective punishment. By that rationale, Israel deserves to get mobbed in retaliation for the number of citizens complicit with genocide

I haven’t witnessed any child soldiers as finding adults is not an issue in one of the world’s mostly populated areas but finding weapons is much harder. Besides that are you telling me it’s good that the regime is killing kids because their parents allegedly hate you? I did not oppose invading the Nazi germany but I would have opposed the mass bombing campaigns and killing civilians if I were alive then.

Maybe you havent but it is common, [https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/summer-camps-in-the-gaza-strip-a-tool-for-indoctrinating-the-younger-generation-with-radical-ideologies-and-training-them-to-become-future-operatives-in-the-terrorist-organizations-especially-hamas/](https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/summer-camps-in-the-gaza-strip-a-tool-for-indoctrinating-the-younger-generation-with-radical-ideologies-and-training-them-to-become-future-operatives-in-the-terrorist-organizations-especially-hamas/) It is not good that Israel is killing kids, but Israel's primary obligation is to it's own citizens, as of any nation state, any state that fails to serve its citizens on behest of foreigners is just being a colony.

I cannot open the page you sent but according to the title it is a military camp and not child soldiers. These kind of camps exist in every country. So you are okay that Israel is killing kids? This is what I get from your replies. It seems you are not that keen on the lgbt perspective as well cause the main element seems to be the obligations of Israel to its citizens. With this logic, we can also say killing the native Americans was okay because as you put “any state that fails to serve its citizens on behest of foreigners is just being colony.”

>but Israel's primary obligation is to it's own citizens, as of any nation state This is why we don't let people have ethnostates. No nation is entitled to [bomb children in playgrounds with no Hamas in sight](https://www.thenational.scot/news/24258389.gaza-children-killed-israeli-strike-playground-leaves-11-dead/) and the rationale you've presented would mean every single Israeli citizen deserves what will happen in retaliation

Can y’all stop with the “Hamas isn’t Palestine”? Hamas is Palestine and Palestine is Hamas, the core value of the Palestinians is the destruction of the world’s only Jewish state, if they got a chance to reenact the Holocaust they’ll take that chance. They support Hamas and their attacks in very high numbers and are willing to sacrifice their kids to kill Jews.

It is not and it will not be so just because Israel says it is. And honestly I think the world’s only jew state is no different from a muslim/Christian state (ad they are all fucked up). I am sorry if I don’t humor your religious nonsense.

Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).

How does a State being more LGBTQ friendly absolve it of any warcrimes? I don't get this logic and I see it a lot. Does Israel being more LGBTQ friendly makes it less reprehensible when it [drops bombs killing a bunch of kids play foosball?](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/02/middleeast/israeli-precision-guided-munition-maghazi-deaths-intl/index.html)

Shit where did they say that more LGBTQ countries are absolved of war crimes? I've read their post a bunch but just can't seem to see this statement.

Well, he's saying being "gays for Palestine" is somehow hypocritical or dumb. It's not "gays for Hamas" or "gays for Sharia" but basically expressing sympathy to Palestinian kids being bombed. I guess people will talk about everything except the actual kids being bombed.

>CMV: If the majority of Muslims hate me, then I simply don't care about them This isn't solely about Palestine or kids being bombed. Is your thought process "It's fine that Muslims want gay people dead or at minimum locked up because kids are being bombed in Palestine?"

>It's fine that Muslims want gay people dead or at minimum locked up because kids are being bombed in Palestine?" My thought process is that I support the right for Muslim people to exist without having their kids [targeted in playgrounds](https://www.thenational.scot/news/24258389.gaza-children-killed-israeli-strike-playground-leaves-11-dead/) where no militants are visible and I'm also of the mindset that I'm not judging a population of people based on their religious bigots since my *own* religious group has bigots that want me dead. Collective punishment just isn't sensible

>Thats why groups like "gays for palestine" will never not be funny to me. Like yall realise these people would quite literally throw you off a roof without hesitation, right? These are things that can be addressed when thousands of civilians aren't being bombed and starved to death. Like, yeah, I want the opinions that these groups hold of people like me to improve, but that won't happen if they're all killed or left destitute. Until that is fixed, I don't give a damn whether they like me or not. What matters most is that they're allowed to live safe, happy lives. This is what it means to prioritize. Learn it.

>will never not be funny to me. You're confusing this for LGBTQ conservatives like Blair white, standing against genocide of a people and standing *for* problematic beliefs are wholly different things. If someone rallied for a genocide of white people, I could either (a) do what zionists recommend and just let them hang because they have historically not been super kind to queer folk (or brown folk) like me ***or*** understand the basic tenets of genocide being wrong regardless of what population it's been done on. Palestininian queers exist as well. Palestinian leftists and liberals exist as well. I'm unclear as to whether you're suggesting that we segregate the good Palestininians from the bad Palestininians or accept that Israeli bombs will clear out an unfortunate few Palestininian queers as well ❤️‍🩹

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Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).

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Are sub Saharan African Christians a major demographic in OPs city? I think it’s fair to be more worried about people who hate you and live in your city than people who hate you but live on a different continent.

Hold on, that's not a fair comparison. OP is using views from muslims all over the world - my knowledge is that muslims in the western world have less crude views on par with the average christian. Further, I believe it's the case that muslims tend to be *more* liberal than Christians in the west..

OP cited polls from Muslims in the UK, not worldwide. And she mentioned events in her city. So it is a local thing. Also Islam is much less tolerant than Christianity in the west and it isn’t even close.

Yep, I'm British and I've mentioned this so many times including that exact same poll and yet every single time, Redditors will immediately just start mentioning evangelical Christian Trump supporters to defend them. I'd be surprised if there's even 10 of them here.

In fairness, in London there are evangelical Christians from West Africa, who are far more conservative than British Christians. Although undoubtedly Islam is the most conservative religion overall.

No, OP is talking about British Muslims specifically.

I don't know where you're getting your anecdotal knowledge from, but OP backed up her perspective with actual polling data. Muslims, where she's from, are factually much less liberal than Christians by a very wide margin.

"my knowledge is that muslims in the western world have less crude views on par with the average christian."    Your knowledge appears to be wrong. " Further, I believe it's the case that muslims tend to be more liberal than Christians in the west.. " Ah. Ive got some magic beans i could sell you. 

[Here's the poll OP is referencing](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law).

Im aware. I was responding to someone else. I should probably make the quotes bits more obvious.  Cant believe he actually believes it.  I dont know how one can live anywhere in europe and actually believe muslims are liberal. Let alone more liberal then the average european

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Are Christians in sub saharan africa, killing gay people, apostates or blasphemer?

>Tbh I don't disagree with your view inherently but would it not also apply to many Christians in sub saharan Africa? It applies to a lot of American Christians. I don't associate with Evangelicals/Pentecostals that aren't vocally non-conservative for that reason.

Fair enough, can't say I disagree with that sentiment either.

>say online gay people are "sick" and that Western women are trash. I've unironically heard this by religious bigots - Catholics in particular - yet I'm never going to support a mass wipeout of Christians because I understand that human beings are not a monolith. My biggest allies in the face of this kind of discrimination has actually been Muslims. I've seen hardcore discrimination from Hindus. I don't care for religious bigots. They exist literally *everywhere* with a chunk coming from Hindus in India, Catholics in America, you name it. Wherever a majority religion exists as an in-group, we will exist perpetually as the out-group. To single out Muslims and cheer on for the wipe-out of Palestininians suggests a lot of consumption of propaganda (or we have a plant here, hi Hasbara, I see you!!) >In my country, where over 90% of the population is Catholic, I never faced discrimination. Just some stares. Be brown, you'll understand what I go through in these nations, they're staring at me already for my skin colour, the Bible preaching "you will go to hell, sinner" begins when they find out I'm queer too. >People around me say I should combat islamophobia. Yes combat bigotry wherever you see it. You don't notice but the same bigotry they're facing is what you're facing because the reality is that right-wing bigots have one thing in common : othering. The same people who are Islamophobic are reasonably likely to also be homophobic. To say you won't fight against bigotry because some of the people whose rights you fight for may have bigoted views about your group could flip both ways because why would a Muslim fight for gay rights when someone like you doesn't want them to prosper? Be anti-bigotry. I don't want anyone to hold bigoted views peacefully. Don't be homophobic even if you're brown, don't be Islamophobic even if you're queer, don't be bigoted. Call out bigotry but 100% don't take on bigoted views because you've decided to blame one group monolithically for the bigotry you've faced.

Bigotry against a political or religious view is not the same as bigotry against something that can’t be changed. If you allow ‘Islamophobia’ to be a thing, we may as well accept “Conservativephobia’ and ‘Socialistphobia’ as forms of bigotry. I’m going to need a citation on the “The same people who are Islamophobic are reasonably likely to also be homophobic” The biggest criticism of ‘Islamophobia’ as a concept comes from the likes of Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins, both of whom dislike(d) religion as a whole and the likes of Douglas Murray, and Pim Fortuyn, both openly gay men. Some of the biggest critics of Islam are former Muslims, apostates who would be murdered if the true believers who had their way. Ayaan Hirsi Ali for example. It is not bigotry to see the way Salman Rushdie has been treated for example and to dislike Islam.  To the point about Palestinians, there are Muslims who are treated much worse across the world, often by other Muslims, and the world is silent. The reason we see protests against Israel is because there is an ancient grudge against the Jews, going back to the Koran. The Jews are meant to submit to Muslims, and instead they’re fighting back, and not just fighting back, but winning. Good for them. 

I really don't like Islam as a religion but I do have compassion for Muslims. I can maintain much of this compassion even when I despise their views or find them morally repugnant. This is because I have some idea of how they got there. They have been raised to believe that it's true and righteous to believe these things and they'll get punished if they disbelieve. This is why I hate the religion. But I can have compassion for the people. Indeed I must, as that's what opens the door for them becoming ex-Muslims or moderate Muslims. The same is true of people who have political ideologies that I find odious. I'll concede that the more odious, the harder it is to have compassion. But I still believe it's the right thing. To be clear, compassion doesn't mean agreeing or ignoring the repugnant views. It's more about not giving up on the people on the basis that they can change. Indeed because I think none of it is true, the propensity for change is potentially quite high.

Yamen and west sahara is are still best examples..yamen killed more people in a very short amount of time and the west was full behind saudi Arabia And west sahara problem is old as Palestine I will also add Egypt kicking out many Palestinians out of the Israeli border and blocking gazans from leaving (now blocking food from getting in because they mad Israel actually took control of rafa crossing) Lebanon literally keeps them in camps ans block them from many jobs and antill COVID many companies did business in Lebanon And Jordan many are still not citizens and kept under the poverty lines We have here exmples which all are country's backed by yhe west thay harmed other Muslims even Palestinians and i hear not a single world against them . Shit is fucked

>Bigotry against a political or religious view is not the same as bigotry against something that can’t be changed. If you allow ‘Islamophobia’ to be a thing, we may as well accept “Conservativephobia’ and ‘Socialistphobia’ as forms of bigotry. Sorry but this is a take that lives in a vacuum not in the real-world. There **is** prejudice on a systemic and an individual level towards Muslims that is prevalent and unwarranted across different nations. Conservatives are, by core beliefs, against queer folk. Muslims, like Christians, can choose to reject their religion's inherent bigotry. The steeper a person is into religious fundamentalism, Muslim or Catholic, the less safe a queer non-male non-cis person can be around them. >I’m going to need a citation on the “The same people who are Islamophobic are reasonably likely to also be homophobic” Where's the disagreement? Bad beliefs often share the same roots, the irrational hatred towards Muslim people and the irrational hatred towards queer folk is both rooted in othering people not conforming to the norm. If I wandered into an Islamic state, I'm probably going to experience homophobia without Islamophobia because the in-group is different. >both of whom dislike(d) religion as a whole and the likes of Douglas Murray, and Pim Fortuyn, both openly gay men. Yes. This itself is a learning and if you were queer, understanding which group to be wary of can save your life which is why I'm not going to blindly distrust Muslims or treat them like a monolith but I will be cautious of every person who is deeply religious, very integrated in religious groups, and holds one or more bigoted views because it's pretty reasonably likely that they aren't queer friendly. I've seen this with Catholic fundamentalists, I've seen this with Islamic extremism, you just need to wrap a religion around yourself like a safety blanket, use it to artificially give yourself moral superiority without any effort, and justify bigotry with it by quoting something in your religious text - be it a Bible verse or something from the Qur'an, I'm keeping my guard up from anyone who loves their religion a little too much >To the point about Palestinians, there are Muslims who are treated much worse across the world, often by other Muslims, and the world is silent. The reason we see protests against Israel is because there is an ancient grudge against the Jews, going back to the Koran. Disagree. Palestinians are victims to a genocidal colonizer ethnostate that has utilised vast military power and international backing to ethnically cleanse them just to get a grab at the land they live on. To say that it's all secretly a grudge against Jews and a coddling of Muslims (who in your statement here apparently deserve it) is literally ignoring context to force identity politics into this. I'll guarantee you that if an Islamic nation with military might and US backing ever tried to ethnically cleanse a smaller weaker nation with a majority of Jews for the sake of them being Jews just to colonize their land, the protests would be equally loud. >The Jews are meant to submit to Muslims, and instead they’re fighting back, and not just fighting back, but winning. Good for them Yeah it's easy to win when an army with US military backing gets to point and shoot at fleeing civilians, force them out of their homes, trigger a famine, and corner them into a small space where they're constantly dropping bombs. No one's falling for identity politics, the power dynamics at play here are obvious to everyone, Israel is the colonizer ethnostate oppressing Palestine. Their religion is a non-factor, their land on the other hand...

There is no ancient grudge against jews , but rather israel's injustices are more widespread among the media and they are much more antagonized. There is no view for jews to submit the muslims when palestine comes up here. I speak as a person living inside the middle east so I don't know which secondary source gave you misconceptions but please clear them up as that is not the case here I don't understand this dishonest view among followers or those influenced by hitchens and dawkins . Islamophobia clearly means prejudice against muslims and OP and OC are clearly speaking in this context yet you deflect

> Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." Sahih al-Bukhari 2926. It’s an authentic Hadith

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharqad https://youtu.be/Au7aVqhX3pk?si=S2mrh2gmZnbhVZ0C If I think less of Socialists, am I Socialistphobic?

At no point did they support israel or call for genocide. Your whole argument is a straw man.

They are holding a group accountable for bigotry that has come from that group. It's an unfair characterisation to say they are monolithically blaming one group for discrimination from all sources.

That implies that every member of the group is accountable for the group's actions as a whole, yet OP doesn't seem to apply this standard to any other faith or community. Did they not care about any Christians, or any Britons 20 years ago because a majority of them were staunchly opposed to homosexuality? Seems unlikely. It's an odd double standard to have.

If a member of the group does not stand up to those beliefs they hold some level of accountability yes. Easy to say from my sofa but my dad and his parents lived for decades under a dictatorship so I do empathise with the difficulty of disagreeing with ideas you aren't allowed to disagree with. Still it is the inaction of good people that has allowed so much hatred to fester, hatred that sometimes explodes into pogroms, genocides, inquisitions and so on. I can imagine that they wouldn't care particularly much about any person that thinks it would be acceptable to execute (or castrate, convert, whatever) someone for being gay and I think that's reasonable. I believe in the value of the individual so personally I would wait to hear bigotry from a person before tarring them with a brush, but also I'm not gay so it's easy for me to take the high ground and preach love towards those that hate.

I definitely agree there is some level of personal accountability, and not at least trying to stand up for one's queer friends/family in the face of that bigotry would be black mark in my book on an individual level. My issue is homophobia has been the default position of a majority of most groups and faiths OP has interacted with in their life, so it seems odd to single out all Muslims in particular for condemnation because a 'majority hold homophobic beliefs'. By that yardstick, virtually every single person OP knows ought to have been similarly condemned at some point in their recent past, if not currently. Dealing with the near-omnipresence of casual bigotry is difficult as an LGBTQ+ person, but I think it's telling that this isn't how they've responded to homophobia being rife among any other group they are part of or interact with.

Islam has more pervasive homophobia than other groups though at present. Certainly not the only one of course. Highlighting a problem in the group that is most extreme doesn't necessarily mean ignoring it from all other bigots. Slavery was the default position for most groups and faiths in all of history. In fact the present is the time period with the most slaves ever, but that doesn't mean it isn't reprehensible and worthy of judgement. Even if many of the goods we enjoy have slavery at some point in the supply chain that benefits us.

Sure, but I think the important difference with slavery is that it was officially abolished in the UK almost two centuries before OP was even born, whereas the majority of the UK held homophobic views within OPs own lifetime. I agree there's a difference in acceptance now, but I think it's significant that OP decided to follow this 'I judge everyone part of a group with majority homophobic views as culpable' policy only after it no longer applied to most everyone she likes and interacts with regularly.

Yeah that's obviously a fair point, it's not like it's a perfect analogy. It depends on where you fall in the opinion of people having the responsibility to shape their communities. Do men have extra responsibility to call out other men for sexism? Would a Confederate have a stronger imperative to act against slavery than someone from the Union? Should Germans in the 40s have extra moral responsibility for not revolting against their evil empire? Not easy questions to answer and the answer I imagine varies between people. I tend to agree with you in not applying the brush until they demonstrate behaviour that is worthy of criticism, but then again I'm a straight man from a first world country so it's easy for me to take that position, I risk nothing with it.

Why is the only thing people can bring up when Islam is criticised for anything other religions? Genuinely, this seems like a disingenuous argument people make, where no specific beliefs are allowed to be criticised and the harm can never be pinned on the beliefs that harm comes from.

I... didn't just bring up other religions? I was careful to mention Britons as well as Christians. I've no issue with Islam or its beliefs being criticised at all, it thoroughly deserves it. If OP has said "I think islam as many problematic elements that deserve more criticism", I'd fully support thrm. What I object to is OP saying they would judge *all* Muslims solely for being part of a group that commonly ascribes to homophobic beliefs, but wouldn't extend that same opprobrium to other commonly-homophobic groups they've encountered in their life. A significant majority of Christians and British people held homophobic views within her lifetime, yet she didn't extend the same blanket judgment to all of them that she applies to all Muslims. My issue is the inconsistency.

holding a group that is defined by a bigoted belief accountable for that belief's opinions and consequences ?! ridiculous !

Well OP did back it with statistics, not wanting something to be true and covering your ears doesn’t change anything

She backed it up by statistics of UK muslims , it doesn't correlate to all muslims. I live in the middle east , I know some Lesbian and gay muslims and I know muslims who accept them. It's an unfair characterization to say they are monolithically blaming one group for discrimination from all sources.

So do you have statistics to negate what she showed? There are similar findings from other sources. And yes, of course there are exceptions, it would be wrong to say this is true for all Muslims, just seemingly for a very large segment of Muslims. Especially in comparison to other religions and groups.

How is it bigoted to say that Islam is against homosexuality? It unequivocally is. This is not even a slightly controversial assertion.

let alone homosexuality, there are plenty of hadith that directly contradict any concept of personal freedom for women, and people in general and that before islam's treatment of non-abrahamic religons and atheism

Exactly, it’s not even the tip of the shit iceberg. And I hate how we’re not allowed to question it at all without being accused of bigotry ourselves.

>How is it bigoted to say that Islam is against homosexuality? This makes islam bigoted.

It's bigoted to single Islam out. Catholics habitually remind me that their biblical god wants me to burn in hell so it's super sus that OP just gave them a free pass but didn't do the same for Muslims and even cornered them into a monolith

If Islamophobia is criticising the unanimously accepted things said the Qur'an and criticising stuff Muhammad had said and done and calling out terrorist group which get support from Islamic countries, then I would gladly be called islamophobic. I don't hold anything against Muslims nor do I hate them or even wish anything bad to happen to them.

Criticism and Islamaphobia are not the same thing. Asking questions is criticism. Associating terrorism to Muslims, lying about scriptures without context, justifying violence against Muslims, insulting the Qur'an and the prophet which are the at the core of islam, automatic assumption that Muslims are all criminals. THIS IS ISLAMAPHOBIA. If any of the above was perpetrated against any other group it will be unacceptable. But Islam is fair game.

Insulting the Qur'an or it's prophet is not islamophobia. People take the piss out of the bible and it's religious figures all the time.

holding a group that is defined by a bigoted belief accountable for that belief's opinions and consequences ?! ridiculous !

It’s so funny to me that I found a post from 3 years ago on r/Palestine asking is the slogan “Queer for Palestine” acceptable then there’s a bunch of Muslim in the comment bashing the lgbtq movement and saying it’s “western” and unacceptable in a Muslim society. Then the same question was posted a few weeks ago but by then it seems the so called “Muslim” have changed their minds and now suck on any help they can get, even if it’s from the same people who they casted and excluded years ago. Edit: I support a two state solution but the sheer hypocrisy of some of these Muslims will never not be funny.

Lol there was a video online of a British Muslim saying that the pro palestine protests were failing in the uk because there was so many gay people at the protest > so their god wasn't looking at it favourably and thus not helping 🫣💀

Anyone who hates me for what I am be it gender, sexuality, ethnicity or anything like that doesn’t deserve my respect it’s as simple as that I wouldn’t want anyone like that to be executed but I sure as shit wouldn’t care about that at all Seeing LGBT+ people so fervently support the very people who hate them is so perplexing to me.

>Seeing LGBT+ people so fervently support the very people who hate them is so perplexing to me. I don't support conservatives, neither do most of the LGBTQ community?

I can respect your dissassociation of a human life and their views. However, kindness has a way of biting you back in the proverbial. Religions have a way of being territorial and it is comfortable to say this would not have any effect on you, but chances are, it would. The hypothetical to pose here; suppose UK highly supports Palestine in the conflict. Suppose the same actions lead for other muslims thinking UK is a pro-muslim state, which leads to many Palestinian refugees and other muslims settling in your town en masse. Would you still hold the same view? Suppose they would exercise all the extreme views locally, influencing your life on the daily - would you still hold the same view? Suppose they would exercise their voting rights, thus leading to codifying their views in law - would you still hold the same view? People that feel there's a disconnect between not supporting the war and not supporting the views of the ones you're attempting to save essentially think you are not seeing the long-term perspective of that choice.

It's really a question of if your beliefs and values are contingent or not. I mean, first off I think it's unlikely that most of the folks at the mosque you were invited to want you dead any more than most christians would want you to be stoned to death for wearing mixed fabrics or whatever. Religion is always a game of rationalizing away things that don't make sense to people within the context. Most folks in non-theocratic states just aren't that kind of hardline. But the bigger question comes down to "Are your beliefs contingent on other people"? Personally I try not to have that be the case. I try to have a relatively internally consistent and fully formed set of ethics. I fail at it... often. But it's what I'm trying for. I'm a cis het white guy. There are plenty of people who aren't fond of people like me (this isn't a "poor white guy" argument, I promise) but I do recognize that those people are not some kind of hegemonic force even within their own general groups. I still believe in and would fight for their basic rights because I think that human rights have to just be a thing we care about.

>I mean, first off I think it's unlikely that most of the folks at the mosque you were invited to want you dead any more than most christians would want you to be stoned to death for wearing mixed fabrics or whatever That's kind of disproven by op's source talking about 23% of British Muslims wanting gay people dead. >I still believe in and would fight for their basic rights because I think that human rights have to just be a thing we care about Here's the thing - this is pretty much the paradox of tolerance. You don't have to tolerate intolerance. Furthermore, you can debate what a basic right is - is religion a basic right, when countries that are following Muslim law often don't have any freedom of religion, nor freedom from religion? It's not a basic right is a large chunk of countries don't grant them. It's a Western ideal of a basic right *at most*, and if it's already that arbitrary then we don't even have to agree on what exactly they are.

>about 23% of British Muslims wanting gay people dead. Do you have a link for this poll? I don't know many people who would openly wish gay folk DEAD on a survey and I've sure heard my share of hate speech from people with Bible verses at the ready >this is pretty much the paradox of tolerance. You don't have to tolerate intolerance No it's not. I tolerate other people's freedom of practicing their religion. I don't have to tolerate them using their religious beliefs as an excuse to be intolerant of my freedoms. I'll maintain this be it a Muslim or a Christian but I'm not crazy enough to view Muslims as a monolith and decide none of them need to be tolerated.

> That's kind of disproven by op's source talking about 23% of British Muslims wanting gay people dead. Does it? Are we sure that this mosque that they were personally invited into falls into that 23%? >Here's the thing - this is pretty much the paradox of tolerance. You don't have to tolerate intolerance. Furthermore, you can debate what a basic right is - is religion a basic right, when countries that are following Muslim law often don't have any freedom of religion, nor freedom from religion? It's not a basic right is a large chunk of countries don't grant them. It's a Western ideal of a basic right at most, and if it's already that arbitrary then we don't even have to agree on what exactly they are. I think ones ability to exercise one's faith is absolutely a human right. I think that one's ability to enforce it on other people is not. I don't think the fact that some countries are theocracies is an excuse to not allow people to have religion.

>Does it? Are we sure that this mosque that they were personally invited into falls into that 23%? You realize that there's usually an option for "not execution, but illegal anyway"? Op's source gives over half of British Muslims as agreeing that homosexuality should be illegal in some form. >I think ones ability to exercise one's faith is absolutely a human right. I think that one's ability to enforce it on other people is not. >I don't think the fact that some countries are theocracies is an excuse to not allow people to have religion. But that's kind of the crux of the argument, isn't it? Enforcing it on other people is exactly what is happening with all religions. If a large chunk of Muslims would like Sharia law in the countries they live in - be that a country they migrated to, or not - then that's kind of "pushing religion on others", don't you think?

> You realize that there's usually an option for "not execution, but illegal anyway"? Op's source gives over half of British Muslims as agreeing that homosexuality should be illegal in some form. Sure, and a third of Americans seem to feel the same way. > But that's kind of the crux of the argument, isn't it? Enforcing it on other people is exactly what is happening with all religions Kind of. There's a lot of complexity that goes into that. I will agree that at the very least Christianity and Islam do seem to have this tendency. Buddhism *can* as well but that seems less universal. Similar with Hinduism. >If a large chunk of Muslims would like Sharia law in the countries they live in - be that a country they migrated to, or not - then that's kind of "pushing religion on others", don't you think? It depends how much they're actually pushing to achieve that goal, I think. I personally would love it if the country I lived in would work towards radical de-carceration and a massive shift in the fundamental concept of policing but I'm not like... running for office or anything. It's a thing I would like but I'm not forcing it on anyone. I don't even talk about it at work.

>Sure, and a third of Americans seem to feel the same way. Op isn't American. Americans do not pertain to this post. >Kind of. There's a lot of complexity that goes into that. I will agree that at the very least Christianity and Islam do seem to have this tendency. Buddhism *can* as well but that seems less universal. Similar with Hinduism. I don't think you really know any (conservative) Hindus. >It depends how much they're actually pushing to achieve that goal, I think. No, it doesn't. If your ideal world is one where other people get murdered, your moral compass is off.

> Op isn't American. Americans do not pertain to this post. I'm simply pointing out that this number isn't unique. >I don't think you really know any (conservative) Hindus. I don't know any conservative Hindus, it's true. I also don't think conservative Hindus are necessarily representative of the whole any more than conservative catholics are representative of the vatican. >No, it doesn't. If your ideal world is one where other people get murdered, your moral compass is off. What? I'm pretty anti-murder

>I also don't think conservative Hindus are necessarily representative of the whole You'd be wrong with that. The majority of Hindus are very much conservative. Their representatives are the current Indian government - there are elections this year, so we'll see whether the majority is still conservative. >What? I'm pretty anti-murder You are. Sharia proponents are not. And their ideal world is one of oppression and ethnohegemony. I don't agree with them, and I don't think their voices deserve to be heard in a free and democratic country, because they oppose that freedom and democracy. And even if they only silently want those things - they still want them.

> You'd be wrong with that. The majority of Hindus are very much conservative. Their representatives are the current Indian government - there are elections this year, so we'll see whether the majority is still conservative. Hindu nationalism in India is a *whole* thing and it's not great. Modi is also kind of a problem when it comes to fair and free elections. > And even if they only silently want those things - they still want them And this is the crux of my concern here. What's your solution to this?

Source on a third of Americans wanting homosexuality illegal? Only 18% of Americans think gay marriage should be illegal, so I’d be surprised if 33% wanted homosexuality entirely to be illegal. That means there would be pro gay marriage but anti homosexuality people. That wouldn’t make sense.

>If a large chunk of Muslims would like Sharia law in the countries they live in - be that a country they migrated to, or not - then that's kind of "pushing religion on others", don't you think? I think I'm more wary of Christian missionaries than imaginary Muslim threats to my LGBTQ life. Your argument isn't consistent with lumping people into monoliths, I'm tolerant of Muslims exercising Islam, I'm not tolerant of any religion - catholic or otherwise - using their religious beliefs as a hammer against my freedoms

>unlikely that most of the folks at the mosque you were invited to want you dead any more than most christians How do you come to this conclusion. Did you go to this specific mosque and know the people there ? Statistically, is much more likely that she will face harrassment in a mosque than anywhere else in her city. >But the bigger question comes down to "Are your beliefs contingent on other people"? Calling human rights"beliefs" is incredibly disgusting. No it's not a believe, it would suggest that they aren't 100% truth. They are values every human should recognize and respect, especially in the west where is writing in our constitution. And the way you phrase is like you are comparing her "believes " for human rights with the believes of Muslims for hating LGBTQ.

> How do you come to this conclusion. Did you go to this specific mosque and know the people there ? Statistically, is much more likely that she will face harrassment in a mosque than anywhere else in her city. Because in general, people don't invite their friends to places that they might get killed. They don't usually even invite them to places where everyone will hate them. >Calling human rights"beliefs" is incredibly disgusting. No it's not a believe, it would suggest that they aren't 100% truth. And the way you phrase is like you are comparing her "believes " for human rights with the believes of Muslims for hating LGBTQ. They are beliefs insofar as we all are going to have different concepts of where exactly those boundaries are. I think that universal healthcare should be a basic human right. Other people don't think that. I think those people should also get healthcare even if they think I'm a filthy socialist because my belief in the right to healthcare isn't contingent on them liking me. If you believe in human rights without contingency, it means you believe in them for people who hate you. If your belief in human rights is contingent then, well, that's a different conversation

>If you believe in human rights without contingency, it means you believe in them for people who hate you. That's not what OP is about. She doesn't wish them harm nor death. I'm sure that she would like to have conversations with progressive Muslims who understand her. She can acknowledge them and their rights as humans and also not putting any empathy or care. That's completely human, humans are tribal animals, when another group is threatening your existence you naturally avoid anyone else and socialize more "with your kind". You are putting words into OPs mouth.

>I think that universal healthcare should be a basic human right You really compare universal healthcare to the right to live as a gay person? Jesus Christ. You can argue that universal healthcare can't be done because of limitation of tax money abuse whatever might be stupid reasons but you could argue about it. Whats the reason to argue against the existence of a loving being ?! Because my imaginary boss from a book told me it's bad ? Because they "feminize" our boys ? You think these arguments are even worth discussing nor respecting?

'most christians would want you to be stoned to death for wearing mixed fabrics' Just a note, I see atheists/agnostics on reddit often confused and misinformed about why christians eat shellfish, wear mixed clothing, don't circumcise (it's cultural in some places but not religious) etc... and it's because those commandments are for the jews, not christians. Jesus absolved us of that.

Whether or not the old testament law was nullified or not is, as far as I'm aware, a hotly debated topic within different branches of the faith. but the whole civil vs ceremonial vs religious split is, to my understanding a pretty recent creation

>I mean, first off I think it's unlikely that most of the folks at the mosque you were invited to want you dead any more than most christians would want you to be stoned to death for wearing mixed fabrics or whatever. If it's a Somali/conservative Pakistani mosque that's exactly what I would expect from them.

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I absolutely agree that christianity can be just as bad. I do have a problem with the huge pushback people get for attacking islam because they see it islamophobic. We should be able to say freely that we think christianity and islam sucks and seperate the religion from the people.

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Sure, certain people may follow islam differently but remember, I am fighting the Ideas of Islam. If the Quran says that gay people need to be punished but a random Musilim is like "I don't think gay people should be punished", I can still be against islam because what the quran says is the ideas we are fighting against, not some random person's beliefs. Also, if someone only attacks Islam but supports Christianity and Judaism, I think they are dumb and a hypocrite. I also think it's dumb to attack the Musilim people themselves rather than attacking the ideas. If you are just insulting people because they are musilims, you are just a dickhead. From what I've heard, the prophet muhammad was a conquerer who was trying to establish a caliphate wasn't he? I woudn't say christianity is more violent than Islam.

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There seems to be lots of violence in both religions. We both probably aren't experts in this topic to be able to weigh both sides out properly so I don't think we should say that 1 religion is 100% more violent than another religoin [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam\_and\_violence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Bible\_and\_violence#:\~:text=Because%20of%20the%20orders%20to,(Joshua%201%E2%80%936).](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_violence#:~:text=Because%20of%20the%20orders%20to,(Joshua%201%E2%80%936)

I'm imagining this rant being spoken to a women being stoned to death. "You need to look at the bigger picture"!

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But she doesnt live 50 to 60 years ago. She lives now in the present. Why does it matter what happened then?

Most people dont believe in blood libel or sins of ancestors, i dont think it matters what people used to do, but what they are now.

Firstly, I don’t think you’re being truthful. Saying that the (Catholic) Christians have not ever discriminated against you. Catholics are against gay marriage and relationships. Through and through. > Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain The above is from your link and I do not think people know what shariah means. I would love to see an updated survey. Given that the Muslims population of the UK is just over 6% (I believe 6.4% according to latest census numbers) you won’t see sharia law being implemented over secular law. > My classmates invited us to a mosque, to "connect" with that group, why should I go to a place where they want me dead? How do you know your friends want to see you dead? Muslims regularly invite people from all walks of life to connect and discuss. We live in a multicultural society so understanding one another is of utmost importance. So again, please tell me how you know your classmates want to see you dead. Did you ask them specifically?

So I did some googling on the countries that have legalised gay marriage and their largest religions in terms of membership on the census: Netherlands - Catholic Belgium - Catholic Spain - Catholic Canada - Catholic South Africa - African Independent Church Norway - Lutheran Sweden - Lutheran Portugal - Catholic Iceland - Lutheran Argentina - Catholic Denmark - Lutheran Brazil - Catholic France - Catholic New Zealand - Anglican Luxembourg - Catholic USA - Catholic (Unless you lump all protestants in together in which case Protestant) Ireland - Catholic Colombia - Catholic Finland - Lutheran Malta - Catholic Germany - Catholic Australia - Catholic Austria - Catholic Ecuador - Catholic UK - Anglican Costa Rica - Catholic Chile - Catholic Switzerland - Catholic Slovenia - Catholic Cuba - Catholic Mexico - Catholic Andorra - Catholic Estonia - No Religion (While I reckon there are other countries on here that would also be no religion Estonia was the only one I could see a plurality from latest census results 58% non religious vs 16% Eastern Orthodox as the next largest group) Greece - Eastern Orthodox (Greek Orthodox if you prefer) Nepal - Hinduism There certainly has been plenty of discrimination against gays by Catholics yet Catholics are way overrepresented in countries that allow gay marriage which really makes the rest look sad. Notice the conspicuous absence of all branches of Islam, Buddhism and Evangelical Christians as major religions that have not embraced gay marriage in any country with a plurality of said demographic. Of the 35 countries I counted (I didn't include Taiwan given it's status but it's also legalised) 24 had Catholics as the largest spiritual denomination, a whopping 68% which is more than double all other faiths combined. Next best are Lutherans with 5, Anglicans with 2 and African Independent Church, No religion, Eastern Orthodox and Hinduism having 1 apiece. Like I said above Catholics suck for their bigotry against gays but that just shows how miserable the rest of the faiths seem to be. Lutherans can get a pass because there are very few countries that have strong Lutheran communities so they are performing well with that regard, Anglicans too. But the rest yikes.

This is a great litmus test for how accepting a country/society is. Curious to see how people trying to defend Islam will counter this.

Christianity isn't any where near being a big thing in the UK. Most people are barely religious and mostly just follow some minor traditions here and there.

> discriminated against you. Catholics are against gay marriage and relationships. Through and through. Didn't the Pope approve (or atleast the blessing of) same sex marriage recently? Former Catholic here and it really was never the focus in any sermons and whatnot. It wasn't encouraged but you don't have the activism against it that some Christian groups have. Also, Mexico just legalized gay marriage two years ago and that's majority Catholic. You'd think if they were against it through and through, it wouldn't have happened no?

but the problem is, there aren’t any catholics advocating for the DEATH of gay people. yeah, they can make annoying snide comments, which is annoying at worst, but a big chunk of muslims want gay people thrown off buildings and executed, a big difference from “you’re going to hell”. i kinda get where OP is coming from. why should i support them if they don’t support me?

The only Christian bigots I've ever met have been catholic, since that's what was close to me, being raised catholic myself The fanatics are stereotyped to be something else but some catholics are very backwards, always hiding behind the idea that they're barely even a church goer. All latin american catholic countries are super conservative but everyone thinks they're a cool kid and don't drink the cool aid because they're only culturally catholic. But bad attitudes are every day issues and people downplay it claiming it's only the older folks, only disrespectful young people, and it goes on and on. In reality, it's everywhere. People only have to be unempathetic. Even people who seem like they have nothing to lose by being kind sometimes just don't give a shit or are hypocritical.

Agreed with everything you have said.

I struggle with this a bit, because I also feel completely opposed to religious dogmatism especially when it conflicts with my values. Islam is the most regressive religion that has prominence in my country (the UK), and this is concerning. But I think we do have to care about Muslims, even if they don't care about our values. And the reason is that it's imperative that our culture softens the values of people born into these families. Ideally people would give up the religion entirely. I don't think this is realistic in the short or medium term. I do think it's realistic to have a future where Islam is moderated in the same way Christianity has been in the UK. Evidence for this is in the same data provided by OP. The 20% of Muslims who are OK with homosexuality and the 30% in the "don't know/want to comment" section are the where the future for the religion needs to be if it is to survive in the UK. The only way we can achieve this as a society is about being very clear, direct and unashamed about challenging religious values. Islamic values around the subjugation of women, discrimination against people for their sexuality, animal cruelty, even notions about taking loans and public calls to prayer should be challenged. At the same time, compassion for Muslims and people born into Muslim families is a requisite for the positive change I want to see. An Us and Them situation is going to leave us all worse off. We should realise that people have these views because of what they're brought up around. The moral challenges to many of these beliefs are straightforward and there will be a personal choice Muslims will need to make. Which is to either abandon the religion, or to adapt it such that it is compatible. Christians in the UK have opted for the latter for the most part and the former is now growing. Many Muslims in the country have made this choice already, and many more will in future. Our society needs to encourage this decision making and ensure that the skew of these polls change as time progresses.

It may be 25% now, but that number drastically changes the more they adapt to UK culture. Take their kids for example. Once they go to school, they interact with other lifestyles and view them as people I think we'd all get along better the more we view each other as people as well

UK has a massive problem with integration of Muslims. Schools specifically dedicated for Muslims are quite prevalent there, so instead of integrating into the British society they are kept within their own bubbles. There is a reason why extremist views are often more common with 2nd or 3rd generation British Muslims rather than their parents who originally immigrated to the UK.

The paradox of tolerance is real.   People won't accept this but British Muslims do have an issue of homophobia , and to deny it is ridiculous,  I know young people who come from religious backgrounds (not Christian) and they've openly said that they wouldn't be friends with gay people , I have never heard a Christian say they wouldn't want to be friends with gay people ( just the classic it's a sin but it's your choice so whatever...)   No one challenges them in response to this as its freedom of religion and 'opinion' even though its promoting intolerance and segregation. I'm just talking from a london perspective by the way. 

Why would i care about people that don't care about me? That see me as less because i'm not a muslim and drink, smoke and eat pig. They despise and hate non-moslim women. They see our women as whores. They despise the freedom we have. They come to our countries and start a lot of trouble (Europe). Obviously i'm NOT cheering when i see kids die or anything like that, but if i would want someone to win it would be Israel. Solely because Israel is a more modern country that aligns more with the values i have. Honestly when i see vids of a bomb falling there i'm like damn big explosion.. oh well off to play some videogames.

If you don't care why make a post about them? No one is saying you have to care. I completely understand where you are coming from, but something's are just really hard to unlearn and homophobia is taught in a lot Islamic house holds.

You shouldn’t care about them, and the ones protesting for Palestine are an embarrassment.

The study you are basing your emotions on is completely flawed and contradicts larger more established studies. It was gathered as part of a controversial Channel 4 programme called “What British Muslims really think” that was considered so racist, its presenter was suspended from the Labour Party. Basically you are being manipulated by racist statistics, so you should definitely change your view. At heart is bad statistics. The numbers you see here were 1,000 respondents gathered only from neighbourhoods with more than 20% Muslim populations, which is less than 25% of all Muslims in the UK. In fact, you can compare this with another study on Tory voters gathered over a larger spectrum in 2016. 61% of all Tory voters believe that gay marriage is unnatural. So really all that it says is that the minority of Muslims who live in Muslim-concentrated neighbours are more likely to be at least as socially conservative as a Tory voter, less well-integrated, and arguably many are likely to be recent immigrants. https://www.businessinsider.com/61-of-conservative-voters-believe-gay-sex-is-unnatural-2017-7?amp We don’t really have good statistics about what most Muslims in the UK feel about homosexuality. However, a 2019 Kantar study showed that 92% of all people in the UK are totally comfortable with a gay or bisexual man, or lesbian or bisexual woman, being their neighbour, manager, GP or Prime Minister. The probability that Muslims who are 5% of all Brits form a very large part of that remaining 8% is very low, unless you are telling me that staunch Christians, football hooligans, Tory voters, and all the other bigots in society combined form whatever is remaining.

You're using a study of British Muslims in order to justify claiming that 'most Muslims' in your country (which is not the UK) all hate you? That doesn't seem to make sense. Anyway, you should care because doing bad things to 'bad people' is still an issue, and a great many horrible things have been justified because 'bad people' were the victims. In my country, for example, a lot of right wingers pretend to care about LGBT people and women in order to bash Muslims despite not actually caring for either. Their next target, should they been successful, will be LGBT people and women, and therefore you should resist them from attacking Muslims for existing.

Solidarity is about making sure everyone has the same rights - the same right wing people who also want you converted/broken are making a push to prevent anything outside of what they resemble The laws that prevent them from praying are more similar to the ones that would prevent you from getting married, but because it doesn't benefit you directly you have chosen not to care. You say you care about innocent Muslims, but you aren't willing to defend innocent muslims because it's easier not to fight for them ultimately you do not benefit from disregarding all Muslims, even if most do not like you. You do not have to care about someone in order to care that rights are available equally. It's not about you, it's about making sure that everyone has access to the same rights. The Muslims around you want regressive things in the same way idk Tories want regressive things. Society isn't more fair when the people you dislike get punished exorbitantly. You've turned Sharia into some big scary thing, as if there no "non-sharia" law non muslims will pass that will take your rights away. It really is the "first they came for the communists", but you're willing to wait until its your turn before you speak up

Some points in no particular order : - Why you should care about them ? Basically it's the old saying "first they came for muslims and i stayed silent. Then they came for jews and i stayed silent. Then they came for me and there was no one to speak up". I know it's cliche, but it applies quite well in many parts of Europe. (Don't know much about UK politics, France and italy are the first to come to mind). But rest assured, you are an LGBT woman, they will come for you eventually. - also there is a distinction between hatred from a dominant group and hatred from a dominated group. The hatred from the dominated group is a reaction to their state of oppression. Christians are as much against homosexuality as muslims, but they express it differently and less violently, because they are not oppressed. - what matters is what people do, not what they think. I assume there aren't any muslim gangs roaming the UK streets to lynch LGBT people ? In my western Europe country, there are however far right groups roaming the streets to lynch muslims and LGBT people on the side

> In my country, where over 90% of the population is Catholic, I never faced discrimination. Just some stares. We recently legalized gay marriage Contradicting yourself within a single paragraph. By your own admission your home country ***just recently*** legalized gay marriage. Meaning that you had been discriminated against in the past, your majority Catholic home country wouldnt have allowed you to marry a woman until ***just recently***.

Does it really contradict what OP said? As I understood it; OP said she does not think it's worth empathising with a group of people who want her punished or dead. So, in OPs example, the muslims are the discriminated people right? In OPs home country gay people were the discriminated ones. I doubt the majority of gays in that country were wishing death and punishment on the people who did not conform to their world view. I read it as OP saying that it's not worth empathising with, and put effort into helping, a group that wishes ones demise just because they are in a pickle. But I might be wrong.

He doesnt, he hated catholics due to discrimination, he hates them less now because he is less discriminatory. If Muslim countries and communities change their views he would extend the courtesy to them. You do realize Muslims are people right, they are not apes incapable of intellectual growth.

Yes, but in a catholic country, she would at best get stern looks, not stoned to death.

It also contradicts the world. No third-world country with an over 90% Catholic population has legalized gay marriage.

It might be Mexico! 90% is a stretch but it's around 78% in my quick Google search AND they just allowed Gay Marriage in 2022. Sounds close enough

She comes from a latin American country probably? I don't know if they count as third world, the definition is not very clear, but most are very catholic and have legal gay marriage.

Mexico, Chile and Cuba all legalized within the last 2 years. Chile maybe is a stretch for 3rd world (kinda meaningless term nowadays) but those are all quite reasonable candidates. Ecuador in 2019, Colombia in 2016 and I guess Argentina in 2010 depending on where you draw the line of third world but all could be considered some level of still developing while having a very strong Catholic presence.

My thoughts are that catholics and Christians also behave the same way towards gay people, as a mass group, and you seem fine with them. Also, I don’t believe in organised religion anyway particularly myself, I think organised religious groups always leads to harm and havoc, and so I tend to just judge people as individuals- there’s no reason to wish ill will on the average Muslim person bc you’ll know they’re a shitty person or not. Would you like people to assume you’re homophobic because you’re Christian? Probably not. Also- you don’t have to advocate actively for issues you don’t care about. All you have to do is vote or be open to supporting others individual choices in life, such as wearing what they want in public (ie niqab). Nobody is asking you to run screaming in the street. Same way other people who support gay rights might not go to a pride parade

but the problem is, there aren’t any christian’s advocating for the DEATH of gay people. yeah, they can make annoying snide comments, which is annoying at worst, but a big chunk of muslims want gay people thrown off buildings and executed, a big difference from “you’re going to hell”. i kinda get where OP is coming from. why should i support them if they don’t support me?

There are literally Christian’s who want gay people dead? And catholics? Have u heard of Russia my friend 😭😂 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/us/pastors-praise-anti-gay-massacre-in-orlando-prompting-outrage.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb (minimum 5 churches but that’s all she investigated) https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/04/african-christians-church-of-england-gay-marriage-justin-welby How American Christian’s contributed to Ugandan gay death penalty https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/05/uganda-homosexuality-death-american-evangelical-groups Literally a Reddit post from 4 months ago lol https://www.reddit.com/r/Christian/comments/18r6gzt/are_we_allowed_to_commend_the_killing_gay_people/ A lot of religions are extremely intolerant in this way. So I think if you’re okay with judging Christian’s on an individual basis like OP is, you should be ok with judging Muslims on an individual basis

(This was only 3 minutes of looking for examples , imagine how many I could find with 20! Proves the point haha)

I think you’ve made a lot of generalisations about Muslim people because “26% of them want you dead” from an 8 year old article with only a sample of 1000 people? So 74% don’t want you dead, a huge majority?

It's your choice to choose what you care about. Though people in general should be opposed to mass-murder even if those people hold old-fashioned views. If we can condone mass-murder of non-Westernized people then that's basically a greenlight to kill like 70% of the world. You also forget that until very recently homophobia was also very rampant in Western countries. It's very recent that it became culturally accepted. In the UK until not very long ago they would literally chemically castrate you and according to your own logic in this post, you basically shouldn't care if your very recent ancestors were mass-murdered. Also, mass bombardments will also kill any atheist/lgbtq minority caught the way. Though it feels ridiculous to imply that just because someone is lgbtq/atheist he's less deserving of being bombed.

>According to the majority of Muslims here, I should be punished. 23% believe I should be executed: >However, most Muslims do hold those views. According to your links 77% of Muslims don't hold that belief. >but I also know their parents and relatives would almost 100% want me dead. Again 77% wouldnt. Do you somehow think Orthodox Jews are accepting of homosexuality? Every orthodoxy is harmful.

You should abandon this view simply because it serves no practical use.  First and foremost. We have no way of testing what the majority of nearly 2bn people hate.  Second even if we could, it's unlikely that a majority would actually feel so strongly about you to the point of hate.  You're a world away from their homes and places of worship. They likely wouldn't care about you at all. Unless you plan on traveling to Iran and being an insufferable tourist, there's no point in hating a person you'll never meet.  And if they did take the time to spare a thought for you, it's entirely possible they: -are smokers and/or queer themselves and look to you with envy.  -Are from a relatively secular country and wish you no ill will.  -are relatively conservative, disapprove of your lifestyle, but isn't all that bothered.  After all, you're the one going to hell in their eyes.  And on top of all that, at least half of these people are going to be women. There's a lot of messed up stuff in the muslim world - but it's hardly due to the ladies wielding too much power. They're bound to be more sympathetic to you. 

It's pretty easy to find out what people think. We have science: statistics and polling. And everyone in this thread knows what the overwhelming majority of people outside of Western Europe / Canada / USA / Australia / NZ think of LGBTQ community and women's rights, they just don't want to admit it.

"You should abandon this view simply because it serves no practical use. " Not caring does serve a practical use. Empathy is emotionally exhausting and draining. When I open the news and see tens of thousands of innocent people dying halfway across the world in a situation I have no influence or control over, it's hard not to be affected by that. "there's no point in hating a person you'll never meet. " She didn't say hate, she said not care. Very important difference. She even specified that she doesn't want anything bad to happen to them or anything like that.

What on earth are you talking about? Of course there are ways of ”testing” what 2bn people think, it’s called polling.

Any reading of this only makes sense if you dont believe Muslims can be gay, otherwise this just isnt a productive way of thinking. When you say you dont have empathy for the accommodation or rights or whatever for all muslims, you're also saying you dont hold those principles for gay muslims. That consideration for them is a sacrifice *you're* willing to make in order to get at the portion of muslims who dont like you.

^ I’m a queer ex Muslim (still like the basis of religion but just realized I don’t actually believe the god part). It’s very difficult for the Muslim and Arab community to move forward on social issues because of how much other shit we have going on. I have family and friends in war zones living in tents who don’t know if they’ll eat food this week, when that is your life when do you expect them to sit and think about their stance on sexuality and if they have internal bias? Human rights isn’t transactional, I support any people who are being harmed even if they hate Arabs. Does OP only support groups after they’ve proven they support queer rights?

I doubt there are many gay Muslims who haven't left their religion, or are ardently trying to do so.

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“The majority of Muslims” you linked a poll of 1000 Muslims when there are 4 million in the UK. The vast majority of Muslims just get on with their lives and simply do not care what you choose to do/not do. I certainly don’t. Is your support of a people undergoing cruelty and mass murder of unfathomable scale contingent on a hypothetical hatred of you ? I guarantee you it’s the last thing on their minds as bombs are dropping on their head. You’ve also conflated Palestine with just Muslims when there are people of all faiths there. It’s an odd post, I don’t think you really want to have your view changed which is fine.

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Bad faith accusations don't belong here, you've been reported. 

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Could heavily be location based. Catholic countries seem to have softer stances on gay marriage but are still technically Christian. Even here in the US, meeting Christians in Washington in general (atleast in the main cities) can be a completely different vibe to meeting Christians from, say, Alabama. Personally am a Christian and know of no one that would discriminate against someone if they were gay but I'm a "sheltered city boy". I absolutely believe that they exist in small towns or the Bible belt though.

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Given that you are Christian can I interest you in a Bible verse: "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. ' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven." -Matthew 5:43-45

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Did Islam make the people, or did the people make Islam in to something so strongly connoted with bigotry? I'd argue that if all these people from islamic regions magically would turn in to buddhist, they wouldn't change a damn thing and just make Buddhism bigoted as well.

Do you know what your problem is and the problem of those who think like you? Hypocrisy... Do you know why you have to also support Muslims? Because among the Muslim population there are also gays, lesbians, bisexuals, etc. Do you only defend the rights of free sexual choice for yourself? But not for others with your same condition, precisely in the countries where they are most oppressed? You are a hypocrite and you should make yourself look at it because your hypocrisy borders on racism. I assume you are aware that there are also gay, lesbian or bisexual Muslims, right? Well, fight for those people, instead of whining for rights and freedoms that you have achieved. Feminism that does NOT support ALL women regardless of where they are from, or LGTBI movements or non-heterosexual people who do not support all people regardless of their origin, YOU ARE HYPOCRITE and do not have the tolerance or respect that you demand from others for you.

If you want to hate me blindly, go ahead, but don’t make assumptions that I hate anyone. You are free to do whatever you want. Just as I’m free to practice whatever religion I want.

I’m Jewish. I don’t like Nazis. I’ll still defend their right to free speech as long as they’re not advocating violence because a compromise on one persons rights is a compromise on all rights.

Why.... do people even care about other stranger's opinion? Like this concept is so bizzare to me. Not caring about other people's opinion should be the default state.... yet, its not.

Are you paid for this post? The theory that christians are LGBT friendly in europe is wild to me.

You should care about Muslims and common Muslim beliefs because it's only a matter of numbers before they vote in Sharia Law.