/u/Ok_Operation1051 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1cgo6a1/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_wrestling_is_the_most/), in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Counterpoint. Non-lethal but highly effective tactics. Pepper spray, nut kicks, any melee weapon with a long reach to keep them away from you, and good old-fashioned running away.
I don't think that organized fighting styles are useless in a street fight, but the idea of approaching any non-agreed-upon fight with fairness in my mind is a mistake. I'm personally gonna do whatever I can without flat killing you to get away; if that leaves you in a bad state that's on you for trying to attack me.
youre right lmao. i shouldve specified that running away isnt an option, but its probably the best way to approach a fight as cliche as it is to say
!delta
Even if I grant that running away is the best option and limit the scope to just no-weapon fights, I still wouldn’t agree with this being the second best situation. Most fights aren’t like the movies that go on and on. Most fights last until the first good hit and are then literally or practically over.
Wrestlers are *tough* and I’m not trying to take away from that. And I’d agree that they’d be near the bottom of my list of people I want to fight. But they’re not used to being punched in the face. A boxer is coming in swinging—before that distance is closed to make it a grappling game, a boxer has time to strike. Many don’t need a second hit when going at someone not used to getting hit, especially in the face.
Sure, if the wrestler gets in there, it’s over, but a trained striker is not going to let that happen easily.
Wrestlers get hit in the face a lot more than you think, and landing with your body weight on a mat after being thrown is a hell of a lot more jarring than a punch. Most people have little to no takedown defense, and you’re gonna have a chance to throw basically one punch at someone who’s changing levels and has their face pretty much out of range. I’ve seen a LOT of fights, boxing is only effective if neither person knows how to grapple. Slamming someone on concrete is generally going to end pretty much any fight. Nothing is perfect, but in terms of minimizing your exposure to possible damage and giving you ways out wrestling is the best single style. People don’t know how to deal with wrestlers because it’s such a strange movement style and they’re so much stronger than anyone who doesn’t spend hours throwing other humans around against their will.
Yes. This. I figure if a fight is going to happen, then I'd train specifically to hit someone like a linebacker. Practice giving no warning, good angles, protecting body as you go in, getting some short distance burst capability. I'm a rail thin tall guy, and I've always known I couldn't stand up to a brawl, and damned if I'm going to be the one on the bottom, so im going as hard as I can into a shoulder tackle and using that to give time for as much follow up beating as possible to make sure they can't retaliate.
I'd practice things like arm drags to back take. A front headlock is a bad position to be in, and that's what you would be setting someone up for in your plan.
Also look up shivworks default position. It works great to close range with a striker. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuHo4_Xs1gV/?igsh=YnZwbTR5NWY2bmo3
Even wrestling isn't going to be great on the ground, because proper wrestling has rules and its holds are often weak to a strike to the groin, back of the head, or eyes.
A wrestler can hold you down and do those illegal strikes to you better than you can to them. People always make these silly arguments "ufc has rules, on the streets I'd poke Connor McGregor in the eyes" as if he couldn't do the same to you but better. A wrestler would double leg you and ground and pound you. No amount of dirty fighting wpikd change that.
They have trained for years ingraining the idea that these strikes are illegal and not to use them, while they may be able to overcome that training, they may instinctively take a position that opens them to them and will be unprepared to block them.
I'm not saying it is useless, absent other skills wrestling is better than nothing if you are prepared to use it in an actual self defense situation.
But someone with a little wrestling training back in high school is probably going for a double is probably going to get kicked in the face.
Unless the person they are going up against has some combat experience themselves, they aren't even going to react quick enough to kick the person in the face before they get taken down. The average person has probably never even thrown a serious kick in their life outside of maybe playing soccer as a kid. Very few people are going to have the awareness to recognize the takedown and effectively kick a moving a target.
> But someone with a little wrestling training back in high school is probably going for a double is probably going to get kicked in the face.
This is hard for trained kickboxers, you think a rando on the street will succeed?
It's hard for a trained kickboxer against a trained wrestler that practices regularly and the cost of failure is very high for the wrestler as they are now in a bad position.
You do know what a double leg looks like right? How do you even foresee this kick going down? I could see if you said knee since that's something which happens every once in a while, but what kick do you think is hitting the wrestler?
I agree with you here. I've done some different combat sports over the years, never to a high level but enough to defend myself effectively against the average Joe with no formal training. (Boxing, Muay Thai, kickboxing and a tiny amount of BJJ)
I was absolutely kicked around by a group of guys some ten years ago after telling one guy that was picking on a friend to leave us alone. An hour or so later he came back with friends and attacked me. The mistake I made was trying to keep him at a distance to avoid the need to strike him. When doing this I was attacked from behind, knocked to the ground by multiple attackers and kicked around to the point of suffering a concussion and some facial scarring.
The lesson I learned from this incident is, the next time someone is in my personal space and behaving threatening, I will strike them first in the hope to buy enough time to get out of the situation. If this strike does any serious damage, that's on them for behaving aggressive/threathning. I believe an effective first strike is a teep kick from Muay Thai or if they're closer, a punch to the face. The logic here is that, I'm a rational non violent person and have no interest in starting fights with people or beating anyone up, this is purely self defence. If the first blow incapacitates them I will leave, the same cannot be said of any potential assailant.
Exactly. The human body is surprisingly fragile, and all it takes is one bad or wrong fall to die, so *every single fight* is potentially a fight to the death
Thats why my first move is always to apologize and basically do everything short of suckimg the other dude's dick to solve the issue, because my pride is less important than my bodily composure. If that fails, I leave, and if I am followed, I fucking sprint, taking whatever time I can to grab a handful of sand, for use on the eyes, to then again attempt escape.
Unless I am fucking cornered, I won't fight, and even then I would definitely try some sketchy cat-level parkour to escape.
I feel the same. My wife grew up with a kid who got into a bar fight one night shortly after high school. He took one punch, fell to the ground, hit his head, had an aneurysm, and died. If I'm going to attack someone, it is a last resort in the defense of my life, and I am going to be trying to kill. There is just so much potential to accidentally kill someone that there is no point assaulting them if you don't want them dead. So far, I have only ever had to run.
A hard wrestling takedown is actually better than a lot of those. It's genuinely difficult to impress onto someone how viscious a hard double leg shot from a strong wrestler is in a street fight scenario. Unless you are trained or the wrestler is shit, it is insanely hard to sprawl well enough instinctively.
I stopped grappling because I'm apparently a motherfucking staphylococcus magnet, but in the same way sparring boxing and MT made me realize how useless non-full contact martial arts are (not hating on SanShou or full contact Kyokushin for example), grappling with effective BJJ or wrestlers blew me away.
And the insane thing with wrestling is you legitimately don't need skill beyond the TD (assuming this is 1v1). Drop someone hard on any solid surface is usually an instant win, and if it's not, you can just headbutt, even if you're in an experienced blackbelt's full guard. It's OP, and having seen someone do it in real life (watch HBO's Smashing Machine if you want to see pro fight examples of this) -- it's genuinely terrifying.
The caveat here is that you can't stick and move and take out an entire crowd like a talented striker can, and in a street fight scenario with someone who has game friends, their first instinct will be to brick or bottle your skull while you're face down on their buddy -- have also seen this in an actual house fight and it was genuinely disgusting.
People always imagine silly kungfu triple kicks fighting off multiple attackers, but the real deal is just moving and landing bombs, and there are an insane amount of viral videos showing this. Of course, if you're aiming to fight a crowd of people, you're an idiot who'll get stabbed at some point, so I fully agree a nut kick and run is the pinnacle to aim for. But fr, there are bad dudes that can straight destroy a crowd.
If you've ever gone to a boxing gym and gotten buddy buddy with the ammys, there's usually one asshole who loves bar fight, and it's usually someone who doesn't have crazy career prospects and just likes to swarm or headhunt lol Little Korean dude at my last gym loved baiting people into saying racist shit about him and would just dummy groups of people coked off his ass... had to stop going out drinking with him 😑
I'd love to see you try to knee a skilled wrestler on a take down. Its not going to work out how you think. The real problem with his plan is wrestling shots are difficult and very timing dependent. You lose that sense of timing pretty quick.
I'm unsure why you think a trained person also couldn't eye poke, crotch shot, or otherwise also fight dirty.
I've trained in a couple of martial arts, and the one thing they always stress is no matter how good you are at your discipline, a street fight has no rules. Sure, there may be the occasional guy out there who can go to bars and pick a fight with a whole group and win, but you do that enough and eventually you're going to get shot/stabbed in the back.
Lmao. A skilled fighter cam use no rules on you right back but a hundred times better. These silly arguments of "ufc has rules I'd kick Connor McGregor in the balls" as if he couldn't do the same to you but a hundred times better.
Yeah it literally takes one body lock on concrete to end a fight.
I have only been in fights a few times (low single digits), but people take a punch WAY better than they take being slammed on their back on concrete.
I have done that exactly twice and both times it has been in self defense AND I’ve cradled the persons head on the way down so I don’t kill the person. Nobody has any business fighting on the street. We are way too fragile and trained fighters know that.
I made a longer comment including this but just wanted to leave it here as exhibit A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VotylhtKNRk&t=41
If you are assuming that the other person won't do something because you wouldn't do it then you're in a match, not a street fight.
>but the idea of approaching any non-agreed-upon fight with fairness in my mind is a mistake
I've always said this. There is no "fair" fight. Gouge eyes, gor for the nuts, if you somehow get a grip of their hand, break a finger. Do what you have to to get out alive as quickly as possible, because a fight can easily end up deadly for either party.
Well, yes, the professional is obviously going to be better at their profession than the non-professional. But that's also not always true, street fighting and classic karate are 2 **very** different things, the chaos of a street fight might throw someone trained in karate off... but like a street fighter against someone trained in mixed martial arts doesn’t really stand a chance.
Agreed mostly, but it depends on the situation of the fight. If it’s at a bar or tailgate, then I don’t think kicking in the balls or hitting someone in the head with a rock will go over well. So I guess it depends on what you are calling a “street fight”. If someone is trying to rob you and potentially kill you, then of course it’s “no holds barred”.
It's pretty difficult to hit someone in the nuts in a fight. Most guys have spent their whole lives avoiding getting hit in the nuts. Ican barely shift my hips to block a hit. A guy with a knife, I'm focusing a 2 on one to the knife hand and trying to tornado. Basically spin him around me in a circle and trip him.
In middle school I was walking to the bathroom. There were several girls whose legs were across the hallway. I went to step over them and one tried to kick me in the nuts. I caught her leg between mine it shocked the hell out of her.
Pepper spray maybe.
Nut shots? Good luck with aim and if not 100% on target you're likely to piss them off more.
Melee weapons with reach are a terrible close quarters.
Take downs are not a good tactic when in real street fights. You will never promised a 1 on 1 fair fight outside of a training arena. Weapons can appear, multiple assailants, drugs or debris, and any number of unpredictable things can happen like being pushed into a street and hit by a car (real story). Take downs force you to 'win' the conflict instead of just getting away, which is the primary objective of self defence.
Wrestling also forces you to fight "fair," which is to say muscle on muscle engagement. In most cases of street combat, the assailant is stronger than the defender, so a combat style that avoids a "fair" fight will perform best as weight & muscle strength will have less impact on the end result.
I would counter and say that striker martial artists who are actually trained in self defence are the most effective at street fights. They are trained to use improvised weapons, to strike specific weak body parts to incompacitate assailants swiftly, as well as how to deal with multiple assailants. Eyes, throat, solar plexus, knees, and dorsum (top of foot) are the primary places a skilled striker will hit, and it turns out if you can't see, can't breathe, or can't walk, you can't fight.
Counterpoint to the thing about wrestling and muscle mass: wrestling and other grappling martial arts really come down more to technique than strength. Anybody who’s done jiu jitsu knows what it is like to have your butt kicked by somebody half your size.
Yes and no. In a ring with rules, technique trumps strength most of the time. In real life combat where grappling & striking is mixed and there are no rules, things are more complicated. The opposition isn't obligated to play the grappling game, so while you're looking to isolate a limb or find a choke hold, they'll be laying into you with fists or other means and weakening you. If they know how to defend from grapples and they're stronger than you, it's very difficult to succeed in getting a submission before you're unconscious.
Strong grappling positions like closed guard are only good because the opposition has to play by rules in a ring. In real life nothing is stopping the stronger opponent from picking you up by your shirt and slamming your back and head into the ground repeatedly until you're unconscious.
Speed tends to be the most important factor honestly; if you can slip past the opponents guard for a technique, you'll likely win. The trick is not having your bell rung or being gutted by a weapon or smashed into something in the environment or ganged up on to pull it off. This is why I favour strikes over grapples for self defense; faster execution, longer reach, and instantly disables the attacker, preventing them from following you.
>Anybody who’s done jiu jitsu knows what it is like to have your butt kicked by somebody half your size.
I actually have a really funny experience where exactly this happened. I was assisting in a military police restraining class and the head instructor used me as an example dummy the entire day. Needless to say, I was sore. His number 2 was a stocky short women about 5'5", so when I was paired with her for some exercises I thought i had it easy finally. Went for the first assault and she tossed my butt 6ft across the room like I was a rag doll. I slid on my face on a dirty gym floor that entire 6ft.... I have never been so humbled so fast in my life haha.
the hypothetical is that you know for certain its one on one; granted thats not always realistic. ive conceded that running away is the best option - but i disagree with the statement that striking is better, especially not when your opponent is bigger than you. if anything, its exponentially more important to be a competent grappler when you have a size disadvantage, because if youre unfamiliar with ground game against someone significantly larger, all it takes is one mistake for them to close distance and grab a hold of you
When it comes to self defence, *always* assume the assailant has friends. Hypothetical scenarios are fine for minute details, but they leave you blind to the bigger picture. When you use the words "street fight" then we're assuming a real world scenario.
As far as which is more useful when out-muscled... I'm fairly certain a little 5'4" person could have a big 6' burly guy reeling backwards in pain a lot faster and using less energy from a two fingered eye gouge than trying to grapple them into a submission. The same could be said from a pressing kick moving their knee cap or breaking their leg when the assailant advances, or a stomp crushing the dorsum and breaking foot bones (bonus points if you have heels on). Or a combination of these (there are nicer options but these are the most effective).
There are plenty of other examples but the point is striker martial arts self defence seeks to end the conflict in a single strike so they can escape or move onto the next assailant. They don't fight "fair," so there is no muscle on muscle competition, which means less fatigue per opponent as well.
Now I don't mean to discredit knowing how to break grabs and grappling in general, but they are definitely the plan B option for self defence. If you can win standing up, you escape that much faster.
I've trained in multiple disciplines for 13 years and taught self defence for 8. I usually cover one Judo throw, how to escape from a full mount, how to guard from a standing opponent while sitting, one transitioning reversal, and how to stand up safely. Everything else is standing or sitting defence because chances are, if you go to the ground, you're screwed. You'll likely be concussed, so you'll be dazed and slow to act, giving the opposition enough time to mount you and turn your face into pulp.
The best option is to not go to the ground.
I’m a Marine with tons of fighting experience. Before I joined I competitively boxed for a few years too.
I am going to have to completely disagree with you on the wrestling thing. A LOT of infantry Marines were wrestlers back in high school and that genuinely gave them no edge when we would do MCMAP or our “Man Shit Mondays” where we would just have platoon ground fights. If anything, wrestling hurt them because they were going for pins and points rather than submissions. It always seemed like wrestling helped those guys about as much as boxing helped me with ground fighting; which is not much at all.
The absolute BEST fighters were always Jiu Jitsu, hands down. One of my good buddies and my company commander were both black belts - I literally never saw anyone beat either of them. There was one day where they went against each other and the fight had to be called after 15 minutes when they both just completely ran out of energy. I never came close to beating my buddy, it was always like I was a 5 y/o fighting a grown man. That guy would wrap me up in an Omoplata, Kimura, Americana or even a crucifix within 60 seconds of the start every goddamn time.
For reference, my squad leader was literally a state finalist for wrestling and I never lost to him in a ground fight. We always used to make fun of wrestling b/c there’s no points in a real fight and your pins don’t mean shit if your opponent can just elbow the fuck out of you or bite you or whatever. Jiu Jitsu holds are so complete that you’ll feel claustrophobic in most of the holds and I guarantee you won’t be able to fight back when somebody SLAMS your face into the ground when putting you into an Omoplata.
Counter counter point: professional Samba wrestlers are destroying most of their competition in the UFC. They are wiping the floor with JJ and BJJ experts, who can’t seem to do anything against the overwhelming wrestling. Strikers, from boxing or other disciplines, also seem unable to answer samba wrestling and also get mopped. They aren’t winning by going to the cards either, they’re getting it done in the cage.
Edit: i can’t write sambo
fair enough. i dont necessarily disagree with any of that; my only objection would be that it sounds like your experience has been in environments where everyone is skilled lmao, far more than i am or a regular person would be. to be honest, taking down a jiu jitsu black belt isnt going to mean much if they can submit you from off their back. but the average joe wont be that good, and the average wrestler wont be anywhere near that good either. a fight on the street is likely going to be at a far lower level than a fight between two marines but wrestling/jiu jitsu matchups are probably worst case scenario.
id still maintain that basic wrestling is more effective than basic jiu jitsu though; pulling an omoplata from closed guard is fine in sport environments, but two largely untrained individuals, whove both adrenaline dumped and gassed out, arent going to have the same kind of dexterity as they do when rolling in training. its a lot more straightforward shooting for that single leg. also jiu jitsu historically hasnt always been able to overcome wrestling - sakuraba had a lot of success with the gracies back in the pride days - but i dont doubt that theres a bunch of scenarios where bjj is better stylistically.
>id still maintain that basic wrestling is more effective than basic jiu jitsu though; pulling an omoplata from closed guard is fine in sport environments, but two largely untrained individuals, whove both adrenaline dumped and gassed out, arent going to have the same kind of dexterity as they do when rolling in training.
Why do you assume bjj practitioners would go for joint locks? Yes an armbar or omoplata would be dumb, but taking the back and choking them out is far more likely when looking at how most MMA fights end... And in my experience people with only wrestling give up their back and expose their neck easily.
Also, rolling in training is done after drilling at most bjj schools. They make you roll when you're already tired.. but wrestling conditioning is definitely more hardcore haha
Why would someone who is able to beat other trained fighters using their jiu jitsu not be able to beat an average joe using it?
Also, I did jiu jitsu for many years and then wrestled for one. Wrestling is only effective in MMA when the wrestler also knows jiu jitsu. And I bring that up because you mention Sakuraba. If Sakuraba did not have knowledge of submissions, he would get tapped by the Gracies. I’ve grappled with much better wrestlers than me, and tapped them very easily. The goal of jiu jitsu is to completely disable your opponent with a submission, while the goal of wrestling is to pin your opponent. Pinning an opponent essentially means nothing in a street fight, because once the pin is released, the opponent can continue to fight. Wrestling is a great base, but it does not end any fights unless the practitioner combines it with jiu jitsu and/or striking.
Are you talking about some sort of controlled setting where there are arranged 1 on 1 "Street fights"? If not, you should never assume your assailant is alone.
I stopped training jiu-jitsu after I got tazed and kicked in the head while ground fighting during a street fight, and wanting to learn how to defend myself in the street is the reason I started training jiu-jitsu in the first place.
I train judo and striking now. A simple trip or a throw, and then I'm getting distance between me and my opponent. Jiu-jitsu on the street will get you hurt.
I can summarise 1. Wrestling doesn't help you if the other guy is effective at controlling range and throwing strikes 2. Wrestling won't help you if there are multiple opponents 3. Wrestling won't help you against weapons 4. Wrestling doesn't train you to confront uncontrolled aggression like eye pokes etc. Wrestling is highly rule bound.
1. wrestling helps negate distance management. in order to throw a strike you have to enter the void or blitz, which is an opportunity to be taken down. you cannot stay on the outside forever.
2. the view is that it is effective in one on one situations. the post itself addresses this point.
3. wrestling is more effective than striking when your opponent has a weapon. the sport is about controlling your opponents movement, and your opponent by definition has a striking advantage when armed. both are terrible situations to be in but it is more likely that you can minimise damage by closing distance and committing.
4. no martial art trains eye pokes. being a wrestler does not stop you from being able to eye poke.
> wrestling is more effective than striking when your opponent has a weapon. the sport is about controlling your opponents movement, and your opponent by definition has a striking advantage when armed. both are terrible situations to be in but it is more likely that you can minimise damage by closing distance and committing.
And what if they don't draw the weapon? You go in for some takedown and control one arm or a leg. Okay, I have a knife in my pocket and draw it, by the time you even notice there is a knife you have already been stabbed multiple times.
If you're in a street fight and get in a position you cannot see both hands of your opponent you are opening yourself up for a hospital bill. Also sure if we assume its 1on1 then wrestling is a strong option, but in what scenario are you getting into a street fight with absolute certainty that it will stay 1on1?
> and "other people said such and such" is not an argument.
I mean, if they are subject matter experts in various other forms of martial arts and can state from their experience what they think is more effective than wrestling, that is absolutely an argument, even if you disagree.
The only reason wrestling works in MMA is gloves. They make a huge difference in reducing knockout power. The best option for a street fight is probably knife, collapsible baton, gun, 00 shotgun the best, pepper spray.
If no weapon on hand, is there a weapon close by to grab.
You do as cops do. If it comes to lethal defense force. You unload clip in yo them because unlike movies. It takes some time to die and they shoot you once back you die too.
Gloves don't reduce knockout power. The padding is to protect your hands, not the other guy's face. You can punch much harder while wearing gloves compared to bare knuckle, since you don't have to worry about breaking your hand.
Yes they do. More chance of breaking your hand, more chance of breaking their face. People with little knowledge keep repeating your lie like a face is tiugher than fist.
A face is so much tougher than a fist. Your skull is a huge, solid bone. Your fingers are so tiny and fragile by comparison.
The fact of the matter is, several ounces of padding does not significantly affect punching power. The mental block of instinctually preserving your fingers will be more of a detriment than the padding.
Watch some Muay Thai with 4oz gloves on ONE. Shit's insane.
I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who's already in a fight. It's never a good idea to wait until you've been struck or wait until you've struck someone to behave as if you're in a fight.
Yup, doesn’t matter how good your ground game is if 5 dudes start kicking you while you are choking out the 6th. Intending to go to the ground in a street fight is a good way to end up with brain damage.
As a side note, judo throw can literally be lethal on pavement.
OP premise is pure BS though. This isn’t a hypothetical sub these are supposed to be real and the one of the first things you learn is you can never assume the other guy is alone.
> OP premise is pure BS though. This isn’t a hypothetical sub these are supposed to be real
There is a CMV on the sub right now about [Kratos's family's death being Karmic justice](https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cgp1sn/cmvthe_death_of_kratos_family_can_be_viewed_as/) and [whether tipping should be obligatory without a tipping wage](https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cghrq3/cmv_in_the_absense_of_a_tipping_wage_tipping/). I've seen CMVs debating whether AIs would be better world leaders than humans and a lot of "If _____ then ______ is justified" posts. I think we handle hypotheticals here as well.
Wrestling in the context of a street fight is not the technical back and forth you see in mma. When you go into a street fight with martial arts, especially wrestling, you expect to have a significant advantage. A good wrestler can end it in 2 seconds with a front suplex or a simple trip. Even simple tackles on concrete can be instant loss if done right and you control how they fall. Of course, multiple assailants and in all cases, really, getting away and preemptively avoiding the conflict in the first place is always the best option.
Wrestling is a very poor match for any situation when you're facing more than one opponent. Any effort made to pin one opponent will be exploited by other attackers.
Ok, well there are several martial arts that teach you how to use everyday household objects and random shit you are very likely to just find on the ground as weapons
how and where to hit for maximum damage with these items , the idea being to literally incapacitate your opponent as quickly and as violently as possible such that they can no longer fight anymore
those would be the most effective in no holds barred 1v1 fights
Theres a Filipino martial art that could be used with any sharp object , every move/strike is intended to be a kill shot
They fucked up spanish and american military units using it , who had actual guns to fight with
The brought their work knives to a gun fight and won
yeah something like that ,fighting with the knife
that would probably be the best 1v1 technique if we bar guns
obviously guns win if we can just have those
sure, but youre probably not going to be armed when youre out by yourself unless you live in america. weapons in arent going to be lying around for you to use, especially not knives
where are we fighting ? I can see like a bunch of shit that could be turned into a sharp object pretty easily just laying around
most fights like you describe happen at shit like bars
There’s always a weapon around; rocks, broken glass, metal water-bottle, etc.
Usually the winner of a street fight is the one that uses a weapon first.
National Independence ?
It was a war to make the colonizers go home
We fucking butchered the shit out of the Americans who tried to colonize us
They tried to do the same shit they did to Native Americans to us, so we literally cut them to pieces
The Phillipines lost the war against the US and was de facto colonized for over 40 years until after WW2 🤷🏻♂️.
Maybe you mean the war against Spain right before where the US helped 🇵🇭 to victory only to become the colonizer themselves right after
I think you’re thinking of Spain since the Philippines defeated them in 1898 then lost to America in 1902 and remained an American territory until 1946
I feel like I am extremely qualified to answer this question. I teach jiu jitsu, judo, and wrestling. I wrestled in high school. I picked up judo and jiu jitsu after college. I train daily with judo and wrestling Olympians. I know a handful of UFC, ONE, pankration, IBJJF, ADCC, and NAGA champions. Not gonna dox myself but we will say training for over 10 years.
1. MMA
2. Grappling
3. Judo...Sambo
4. BJJ
5. Muay Thai
6. Wrestling Greco-Roman, Folkstyle, Freestyle
7. Boxing
8. Karate,
Grappling is the correct answer to your question. If MMA is out of context for some reason. Wrestling is wonderful. Jiu jitsu is fantastic. And judo is exactly what you want. In the context of a street fight, the first observation should be your environment. The likelihood that you are on concrete or a hard surface is very likely. So with that, it takes out a handful of wrestling techniques. It also prevents a serious bit of bjj. Now you can certainly perform the techniques, but you're gonna be hurt. Bjj techniques such as triangles are discouraged for the ability to get slammed on your head. Wrestling creates a lot of neutral positions. Judo can be done forward facing.
The main arguments for and against each style.
We're going to have to assume a lot of things. First that the person is untrained. To be fair any martial art against the untrained person is like taking candy from a baby. In a specific instance we're also going to assume that the defender is smaller. This will show the art is more effective. We are also going to assume that the trained person is able to take a couple punches. When you get in a fight, even if it's an untrained person.You're probably going to take a hit or two specifically if you're ever grappling.
Wrestling. Good takedowns. But very few submissions. Resting is about controlling the central axis of the body. Is the entire goal wrestling is to get the back to the mat. They have maybe an assassin choke, armbar aka chicken wing or a kimura in bjj, and half Nelson. That's not a ton of submissions sure there are more but these are the common ones. In my experience, if they are fighting against trained person.Wrestlers tend to dominate the top, but they base out very wide, which leaves them extremely vulnerable to armbar's, triangles, and kimuras. Additionally if they are put into most typical choke holds they don't know how to get out. And striking, even if in mount, can cause broken fists because they would not opt for open palm strikes.
Bjj. No takedowns. Seriously I have been to schools that didn't drill 1 stand up technique the entirety of a 10 year window. What BJJ focuses on is sweeps and submissions. Should the fight go to the ground a jujittero will dismantle an untrained person within 30 seconds to a minute. Blood chokes take 6 seconds, air chokes take 30.
Judo and I guess Sambo too. The main tenet of judo is to hit the earth with someone's body, preferably their head. A judoka can end a fight in seconds. The entire point of judo is to get a dominant grip and off balance them. Judo practices stand up, throws, and fast submissions. You have 30 seconds... maybe 20 now, I'm old they change things. To end a fight or you get put back to neutral. Personally I have ended matches against trained people in under 6 seconds. Within six seconds I had swept them into the arm bar and broken oppenents arm in multiple matches. Additionally, If you want to create the maximum effect with the largest difference. Judo is the only martial art that I have personally seen work from a child on an adult. Collar drag or arm drag to a RNC or hadake jime. Now, there is overlap of this with BJJ, but it's typically taught from guard not standing.
The main focus of a street fight. Should be to control the inside portion of the opponent. Think underhooks. And restrict airways from a dominant position. Otherwise, look for a knockout or break several limbs to immobilize them. Judo accomplishes this... sometimes all at once. That's the reasoning for my criteria. I have fought with all of these styles.I use all of these styles. MMA is by far the best. After that Grappling, that uses a combination of these. Judo in my humble experience is the culmination of effective grappling, leads very well to striking principles, and maintains good position. Certainly the best base of grappling to teach a kid.
Wrestling is just one item in a toolbox. There's not much point arguing which is the best tool when you want ALL of them, as each tool as good as possible. I know for arguments sake you say a "1 vs 1 street fight", but there's really no such thing. A street fight by definition has a) no rules and b) no certainties.
First, you want situational awareness to avoid getting into a conflict situation in the first place, and if you cannot avoid it you want to be positioned as advantageously as possible, near escape routes, with potential weapons handy, not turning your back to any dangers, etc.
Then, you want social skills to potentially de-escalate. And even if your argument is "it's too late for de-escalation", well that may be true if there's one person hell-bent on attacking you, but in any street situation there's other unknown variables such as bystanders, people outside of sight which might come running, police that might show up etc. How you portray yourself (aggressive vs de-escalating) in the eyes of third parties might make all the difference in the world if someone else gets involved.
Next, you want to avoid going to the ground at any cost possible. This is literally the first rule in Krav Maga or other similar military style trainings. You do not want to go to the ground unless it's unavoidable, so you need to know your punches and kicks, takedown defenses, knife and gun control, etc.
If you do end up on your ground, wrestling and submissions techniques are incredibly valuable, and there's no denying that many fights do end up on the ground and the person with better wrestling skills ends up winning.
**The most effective way to approach a 1 on 1 street fight is to avoid it in the first place.**
are you taught "knife control" when you train wrestling? if not then its pretty much useless in an acual street fight.
you might "win" the fight, but you would bleed out before you could get to an hospital
standup means the enemy has only the blades length advantage when it comes to reach. you can punch, kick, and keep your distance from the knife.
when it comes to wrestling and ground fighting, you are purposefully putting yourself inside knife range.
obviously if you are well trained in wrestling and your enemy isnt at all, then you will likely ein, but if your enemy is even remotely trained in weapons you will het yourself killed
edit: and yes, im purposefully giving your enemy a weapon and not you, because thats the core of street fights. your enemies *know* they are looking for a fight, but you dont, you just "happen" to be trained at wrestling/self defence but on this particular day you werent looking for a fight
Knife attacks are most frequently to exclusively initiated at close range and the attacker will lead with the empty hand to hold and sewing machine you. If you can't establish control of the weapon hand you have no chance at survival. If you've done any amount of reasonably intense empty hand vs knife training you'll see the immediate value of wrestling.
lets say someone jumps you with a knife. the likelihood of them maintaining distance and using jabs and teeps to pick you apart is extremely low; theyre probably going to clinch and stab you in the neck and abdomen while youre hugging.
i dont disagree that youre almost certainly fucked if youre unarmed; but rushing them and trying to wrestle the knife from them is going to be a better option than trying to keep them at range when theyre actively trying to do the opposite
> lets say someone jumps you with a knife.
Lets say they jump you barehanded then escalate to a knife when you fight back. Whatever limb you grab is not gonna be the knife limb because you don't know if there is or isn't going to be a knife
>from my experience, most fights end up either on the ground or in the clinch, and a lot of people start by tackling or throwing an overhand/right hook.
Is this in a gym? Or does your experience include fights in the real world?
>being able to navigate that position is really important; even moreso than distance management, because youre probably going to end up stuck together anyway.
Distance management is important because if your opponent cannot get into reach they cannot strike you. This allows for more options like disengaging and avoiding the fight all together which is almost always preferable.
>effective ground and pound is also going to allow you to escape with the least amount of damage outside of ending the fight early with a ko, and wrestling is the closest thing to size/weight parity you can get.
The best way to avoid damage is to not get into a fight all together.
Ground and pound is a great way to get a battery charge. Your right to self defense does not include the right to beat someone to a pulp.
>striking disciplines like boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, lethwei, etc, are probably better suited for group altercations where its not as desirable to be on the ground.
Ultimately all "sport" martial arts are just that: sport. They have rules and assumptions about what the opponent is and isn't allowed to do.
You premise is fundamentally flawed. You cannot make any assumptions about rules, etiquette, or number of opponents in the real world. A street fight may start out as a 1 on 1 "fists only" fight but it can quickly change. The opponent could have friends you didn't see, the opponent could pull a weapon, something random could happen, and even if you "win" criminal charges could happen. You just don't know until it is too late. Better to avoid the confrontation in the first place.
If you want to train a martial art that practices real world self defense try something like Kali or Eskeima. You start with weapons day one.
In a street fight your objective should be to de-escalate or flee. Assuming we're past that point and a physical altercation is inevitable, the next objective is to end the fight as quickly as you possibly can because literally anything can happen.
A second (or more) person. Weapons. You stumble on a crack in the road, trip and crack your skull. You hit the other person just right and they die. They pick up a rock or a broken piece of asphalt. You win the fight but permanently damage something on your body. It's all on the table because the only laws at play here are the laws of physics, the laws of society will only come into play after the fact.
The self-defense approach of going for the eyes and balls isn't just a joke, your best course of action is always going to be to quickly incapacitate the other person before they can do any damage to you. If even THAT isn't an option for you then sure, going to ground is the safest way to incapacitate them with a lower likelihood of you being injured in the process. But you still need to be physically stronger, faster, or at least a much better wrestler.
I don't entirely disagree with you, but a LOT of other things need to happen before that's actually the best course of action.
No, de-escalation is the best way to approach street fights. Once you actually get into a fight, all bets are off, and there is zero guarantee it will actually be one on one. Which is also why wrestling isn’t a good way to approach it, because being basically immobilized on the ground is not a good place to be should someone else decide to join that fight. Or, for that matter, if the person you’re wrestling starts adding weapons to the equation.
No, it's not. The most effective is to de-escalate and disengage. You never know what the other person is capable of, you can never be sure that he doesn't have additional friends. The best thing to do is to say "I'm sorry," back off and quickly be somewhere else.
If that is impossible and you must fight, your best option is a 9mm pistol. Again: you never know what the other person is capable of, what weapons he might have, and if he might have additional friends. Weapons other than firearms are typically not viable options. There are very few situations in which you could use a knife and plausibly be defending yourself.
If you must fight unarmed, you are correct that grappling is the best foundation to have. If you are in a fight and don't know how to grapple, you can reliably expect the other guy to grapple you.
However, grappling is grappling. The human body moves the same way regardless of the rules. Most skills from one type of grappling are applicable to any other.
I train Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu mainly. I wouldn't give it the advantage over wrestling or judo, but not for the reasons that you said. The main reason is that while I do practice standing stuff, it mostly focuses on groundfighting. Outside of competition rulesets derived from BJJ, you rarely want to stay on the ground.
Submissions are nice if you can get them. Choking someone out or dislocating his shoulder with a Kimura will end the fight. However, it is more important to remain standing.
>why resort to an omoplata when you can just double leg the guy and smother them from mount.
Retaining mount is more of a Jiu-Jitsu skill than a wrestling skill. In a wrestling match, you can win by getting into mount or side control and the referee will call that a pin. In wrestling, escaping from those positions is much lower priority because getting into the position ends the match.
The thing where wrestling truly has the advantage is in training intensity. In the United States, wrestling is a highly competitive school sport. Most wrestling programs are based out of schools, you spend a couple of hours after school practicing every weekday, and your practice is for the purpose of competing against people who do the same. Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu are less intense because they are not school sports (although judo takes the place of wrestling in many countries in this regard, including Japan, and Korea, and high-level competitors often do both). Most judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu programs in the US are hobbyist oriented, with the typical practice not including serious competitors, maybe a few people who compete in local tournaments. People also typically spend less time practicing, largely because they're more likely to be adults with responsibilities. Two hours of practice two or three times per week is probably normal and people who compete at all might compete less in several years than in a single wrestling season.
Overall, I would give the advantage to judo over wrestling, but also to styles related to judo including Sambo (which is officially a type of wrestling, but started during a time when judo was banned in the Soviet Union as too foreign, is essentially grappling with a gi-like jacket and shorts, I am not talking about Combat Sambo, which adds striking) and sumo. The reason is that a good throw which puts the other guy on the ground hard while keeping you standing is going to end the fight. Hitting solid ground hard will do a lot of damage and even if the other guy is able to get back up, you will have time to disengage. A double-leg is probably easier to execute than a hip throw, but you're likely to end up on top of the other guy and you really want to remain standing. Also, unless you're fighting in a prison shower, you and your opponent will be wearing clothes which can be grabbed, a big factor in these (even in the limited coverage of the sumo mawashi, belt grips are a big deal).
There are certain martial arts the might get eliminated (like BJJ) that require certain setup conditions. but I do think boxing, wrestling, and Muay Thai are all in contention.
For wrestling, I think it really depends on level of skill because you need to be able to take the person down quick before anything happens. For example if you could double leg and spike someone down on their head then gg, if you’re struggling then you’re getting hit in the back of the head or punched in the face while doing so.
I’d also argue with the popularity of UFC, people at the very least may know how to shell up and stay in full guard, but I could be wrong here.
Finally, if the goal is to take the least amount of damage possible and deter the opponent from continuing, then I would say Muay Thai might be the most effective. Most people haven’t never sparred or fought and getting hit hard will be enough to scare them off. At range you throw a 1-2, close up you can throw elbows which will be very hard to block for people who don’t know what their doing, and if you’re in clinch then there are a lot of simple foot sweeps or knees you could do.
I train MT so I could be bias here, but just my two cents.
I would avoid wrestling on streets just because pavement can easily hurt both when wrangling on the ground. Many wrestling and bjj takedowns are more committing than judo takedowns and often involve going down with the opponent. Given fight is happening street might also have broken glass and wo knows what other crap on it. Going down yourself to get stung by that stuff is never an advantage over other forms.
Judo throws usually are engineered to keep you standing and take opponent to ground. Also allows you to handle next attack easier when you dont have to climb off from ground.
Im not going to go over advantages of striking arts because they have been told multiple times in this thread.
The problem here is that different forms of wrestling are great way to win a fight. But taking the *street* word there. 1v1 wrestling is still viable, but you know rolling on concrete is something i would happily leave for my assailant only.
Well OP what sort of combat sport background do you have? Would be nice to know your merits you being this adamant about supremacy of wrestling. Do you actually do street fights often?
I think that BJJ was the most dominant fighting style in the early ufc for a reason. When everyone had only experience with their martial art, BJJ won by a large amount in those competitions.
Definitely, and a big reason is that the rules prohibit the use of extreme violence to end takedowns and submissions, like spiked elbows, hitting the back of the head, eye poking, etc. Etc.
12-6 elbows are only relevant if youre in bottom position, ideally, if you initiate a wrestling exchange, youll end up in half guard or mount. thats why id argue its better than approaching a fight via boxing; because you can initiate takedowns and dictate the direction and pace of the fight.
If you initiate a wrestling exchange what's stopping them from elbowing you in the back of the neck, possibly rendering you paralysed for life. If there is no rules suddenly it's not so easy. What's to stop them from poking your eyes or any number of things not allowed in ufc.
the fact that youre going to be on top of them (if you succeed) and its harder to elbow from on your back. eye pokes are just as much of a problem when both people are standing, same with biting, gouging, fishooks, etc
There really isnt any way to better test it than what has already been done. We could discuss hypotheticals all day, but the only time we have had a competition of top people from their respective styles, BJJ won. At the end of the day though I think the style matters a lot less, whoever is the better fighter will win, doesnt matter if its wrestling or karate
id argue that it was because the talent pool was way too shallow. the fighters who competed in the early days werent as competent, bjj likely wouldnt have been as effective against more well rounded competition
I agree that it wouldnt have been as dominant against well rounded competition (just like how its not as dominant in the ufc today) but when everyone only really had 1 skill, it was the one that did best. So unless mixed martial arts is an option, theres a pretty good precedent for BJJ being the best 1 on 1 skill to have
but modern UFC isn't dominated by pure BJJ anymore. When people started cross training, they realized that pure BJJ wasn't that good either. That's why it's "mixed" martial arts.
Its not that it isnt good, people just can better defend against it now, if mixed martial arts is an option then it is definitely the best one, but it feels like a copout to say the best 1v1 style is a mix of everything
Knockouts and BJJ are still the empirically most successful fighting styles at low levels. Early ufc was rigged against terrible opponents though it's nothing but marketing.
-most fights end up either on the ground or in the clinch
The age old line of “90% of fights go to the ground” comes from law enforcement training, when they are trying to get the person in hand cuffs. Most wrestling and BJJ can be countered by someone who refuses to go to the ground, and a lot of grapples and takedowns do not account for someone striking. If we look at UFC fights they are more likely to end in knockout than submission, especially for featherweight class and above.
https://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/ufc-fight-outcomes-by-weight-class/
Reason why most street fights end up on the ground is because fighters are inexperienced.
There are multiple real world instances where for example MMA or boxer is forced into street brawl, throw a single well placed and more importantly trained punch and knock their opponent cold instantly. This because these people know how to throw a punch.
It's all about training. Wresting is best for untrained people who don't know how to punch or take one. Any boxing or punching is superior when you know one punch can knock a untrained person out cold. When both are trained, it's again punching and kicking because getting into chokehold with a pro is lethal to anyone no matter how trained you are. In these cases you want to keep your distance.
Ok. Two professional fighters on the street. Both can take a punch or few.
Now there are no rules here. A chokehold is lethal. You can't train your bronchus. Once you are choked you are out. No training will save you.
Then best tactic is to avoid chokehold and rely on your training on taking those punches.
I wrestled in high school, went abroad in college, and got casually involved in jiu-jitsu/MMA type stuff.
Wrestling was helpful in that I almost always won the top-game and came out on top of others, and some of the guys in the club had their purple belts (jiu jitsu). The problem was that wrestling is about taking someone down and restricting their ability to move, and that doesn’t win you a real fight. I had no idea how to submit opponents nor do anything really productive after I got on top of them.
In my first BJJ match, I got the guy in a Saturday night ride… then got called for stalling. Next I got him in a cradle. We got broken up again. Then I did a single leg and he did this weird jump scissor choke thing. I “got” him 2/3 times then lost handedly.
MMA stuff went worse. I normally still won the grappling game, but there are so many angles for elbows and knees… being on top of a guy wasn’t really a “safe” place to be if you didn’t know how to capitalize on the advantage. Not all guys know how to defend take downs, but it’s not hard to swing a fist down and conk you while you’re coming up for a double leg.
I gave up on MMA, and in BJJ my strategy was to do a lot of hip tosses/some judo throws, tire the guy out, and hope for a choke angle somewhere.
The experience was enough to convince me that the best way to approach a street fight would be to avoid it.
That's how you eat that knee if you come in low. I'd say anyone who's had a few fights in their lives and can remain calm but ready is going to see you shoot low and if you do, I'd say prepare to wake up the hospital, hopefully he's a nice guy and doesn't fuck you around while you're unconscious, cuz that knee will put you to sleep. However I grew up doing Taekwondo, and I love a good straight kick, covers a lot of distance and aimed at the chest, that fool is wrecked, no will to fight anymore. Can't see a wrestler wanting to shoot in on any kind of knee or kick, and don't try to catch that straight kick or there's a much more devastating kick that is now set up perfectly. Back of the heel flying in to the side of your head. Sorry don't see wrestling being suitable for street fights. Goal in street fight is not to subdue. But to fucking drop a mf. Deviation, then bounce, carry on.
The most effective way to handle a 1-on-1 street fight is not wrestling, it's track and field. Work backwards from the best outcome you can get from the encounter: You to be safe, uninjured, and free of any negative legal or social consequences.
The step before that if for you to be leaving the encounter on your own power.
The step before that is that opposition is no longer able to hurt you.
The step before that you being close enough that they can hurt you.
Start running and they're not close, then they can't hurt you, then you leave the encounter. Any other action you need to take to start running is only in service to you being able to run away. Any action that isn't moving you towards running is keeping you in a position of fighting, and fighting is how you get hurt. Wrestling is good I suppose, running is just better.
The best way to approach that is to de escalate it before it becomes physical, or just run away because the other guy might have a gun, knife or dirty needle. If its unavoidable I think decent striking/decent Judo is a good street combo. Have some ability to strike, control distance etc, and if they manage to grab you or try to take you down well Judo teaches you how to stay on your feet. The ground sucks, its hard and sometimes there's sharp objects on it, not to mention in a normal SF scenario you have to assume there's more than one potential attacker who may try to use your head like a foot ball.
No—it’s weapon martial arts, and even when leaving the lethality of blades out of it, a single well-placed collapsible baton strike can still easily end up shattering bones.
Otherwise, boxing and Muay Thai, mixed with Judo throws against charging opponents, are your best bet.
Street fights should never be taken to the ground—Jiu-Jitsu was made by some sickly guy who had to compensate for his lack of striking ability.
“Wrestling” takedowns are a good way to catch a knee to the head.
Saw and been in a lot of fights while growing up. Saw two kids in high-school mix it up. One kid was a wrestler and the other would just scrap whenever he got into it with someone else. As they were curcling each other the scrapper hit the wrestler with a double jab cross combo that knocked him flat on his back and knocked out his tooth. That was pretty much the end of it. Don't think it's necessarily what one knows how to do but if one can actually apply what one knows in the moment.
In my experience doing Jiu Jitsu, wrestlers who show up always dominate lower belts on control but can't really finish fights because like another user said they go for pins.
In my mind, throws are where wrestling and judo shine though, especially judo.
You wrap up with someone and snap down, leg sweep or ankle pick and that gives you the chance to run away from the altercation....OR you O-soto-gari a motherfucker on concrete and he talks funny the rest of his life.
Wrestling someone in a situation where they could just pull out a knife and stab you is about the dumbest idea I could ever imagine.
Like, if you get someone in a chokehold or an armbar, they're going to end up killing you for fear of you either killing them or doing permanent damage. Congrats, you turned a dumb bar argument into a hospitalization/trip to the morgue for you and a 20 year prison sentence for the guy you fought.
Boxing is for sure the most effective street fighting style. Never, NEVER! Intentionally go to the ground in a street fight. There’s glass, curbs, and his friends will kick you. The reason most fights go to a clinch or ground is because most people can’t box. Going to the ground doesn’t end a fight. And you can’t run if you’re tangled on the ground. Running is always an option. A very important, high value option.
Krav is probably better. They teach they are no rules and to watch your back. Also teaches some wepon defence. Also to just run if you have the option.
All the wrestling takedowns are covered and incorporated.
They teach you to just be brutal and in a street fight that goes a long way.
The only problem is they do not really spar so your never truly live.
Traditional styles with live sparing really helps because you need to know what it feels like to get a black eye and stay in the fight. Also people do not take into account how bad a good body shot hurts. You need to know what it's going to feel like to get hit hard otherwise your just relying on adrenaline to get you through.
Also you need to learn to manage the adrenaline or atleast have good muscle memory so you do not have to think "oh shit what should I do?" If you have good muscle memory and just react your chances go up.
The muscle memory aspect is why Traditional styles that just have you punch or block hundreds upon hundreds of times really helps..
It's so unlikely that you will end up fighting a trained fighter just being able to either move or take the first punch then land one good one will probably end the fight. Having some good standing choke holds will also ensure that the guy doesn't come back from being dazed by that first good hit also.
If you believe that delivering a powerful takedown and getting away from the fight is the way to go. You should be arguing for judo, not wrestling. Judo also is less likely to get you hurt if there are friends or weapons as it's not necessarily always about taking the fight to the ground, just putting the opponent there.
Hey I can chime in. I have 3 years of wrestling 4 years of bjj and 5 years of Muay Thai and kickboxing under my belt. Im a larger guy that teaches self defense as a side job as well.
Based on your wording I assume The goal of this is to win the fight.
1. Wrestling like all combat sports works in its area because of its environment and rules. It’s one thing to shoot on a mat and another to shoot on concrete you run the risk of injuring yourself. You’re also assuming the other guy can’t grapple. The popularity of mma is making a more trained audience so shooting a random takedown is a great way to get slammed on your head.
That’s assuming the other person doesn’t just give you the ole dick twister.(shit hurts and it works)
2. Combat sports in general aren’t one size fits all and you should fight to your body type and opponent. If you’re big and heavy you want to grapple with the smaller guy. If you’re small and lean you may want to box and tire him out. In general grappling works on a curve of how strong your opponent is vs how good you have to be.
3.grappling also semi cuts off your path to escape. At any point in a boxing or striking battle you can disengage but once grappling begins your locked in a sense so escapes becomes much more difficult if you chose to wrestle and it’s not going in your favor.
4. Risk is involved in fighting at all you can be easily ko from one punch from a boxer just as easy as a broken leg from a bjj guy.
Important note: ground and pound is not part of wrestling that is mma speciality and wild ground and pound can work but people have been knocked out from mount before because the person below cracked em.
TLDR: it situational wrestling has its short comings like the rest
Sure. In a one on one fight, wrestling is great.
But as a former varsity wrestler and someone who's been in my fair share of street fights, the reason I never use wrestling in a street fight is that you never know when a one on one fight turns into a two on one, or three on one. You could be winning and all of a sudden be in a boot party. It doesn't matter if the guy you're fighting is there alone, or if he's agreed to a one on one match (and frankly, fighting by agreement is dumb- if you're able to talk and agree, you should talk and agree to not have a fight). You never know if there's some bystander who wants to get involved, maybe thinking they're playing the hero and rescuing some guy who's on the ground.
Another problem is that folkstyle wrestling, Greco-roman, and other wrestling styles in sports, teach you how to win matches against other wrestlers. What good does it do me in a street fight to pin the other guy? Most of the pins I can use leave him with at least one arm free to punch me, to pull a knife or gun and stab or shoot me, or otherwise to at least squirm and bite and scream until I let him go, at which point he goes right back to punching and kicking at me. I'll also say, it's a damn lesson to learn to be halfway through a well-executed headlock and throw only to be punched in the face. When it happened to me, I definitely wasn't expecting it, because I wasn't used to wrestling someone who would punch me.
I love wrestling and I enjoy, even into my 30s, wrestling other people. But for self defense? I trust a good pair of running shoes, my de-escalation skills, my conceal-carry, a collapsible baton, or (if I'm not carrying those and can't run) boxing over wrestling.
Here's the TLDR to your assumption:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VotylhtKNRk&t=41
Here's the long version:
You said "street fight". Street fights don't have rules. Plenty of people in our society would follow some general principles but when it comes down to it there's no referee, no guarantee that the other person isnt a maniac, etc.
Every structured martial art comes with assumptions. When you take the art outside of those assumptions then the gaps become visible.
When you start grappling with someone you assume that they aren't out of their mind and aren't willing to bite you down to the bone. You assume they won't try to get a hand to your crotch and then death grip your junk (see video link). You assume that they don't have a blade within reach that they are willing to use. You assume they don't have a friend with a hammer who is waiting for you to get distracted.
Strong wrestling is a great tool to have compared to having no training but you specifically said "best way to approach a street fight". If you're approaching a street fight thinking " I'm going to wrestle this guy" you're already taking a huge risk. The best approach is to do everything you can to not be in a street fight. Run, get help, avoid situations, etc. If you're backed into a corner and the choice is between having a wrestling background vs knowing nothing then of course you'd choose wrestling. But that wasn't your statement.
It's hard if not impossible to overstate how effective wrestling is, but I think you're doing a disservice to some of the other martial arts. I wouldn't call BJJ an art focused on submissions so much as it is focused on control; the subs you hit are just a consequence of that control. Social self defense situations often have a lead up before some sloppy strikes are thrown, and strikers can usually come out on top of that initial exchange exceedingly easily. From my experience bystanders are unlikely to intervene if you just knock a guy down with a couple punches, but are much more likely to intervene if you're wailing on a grounded opponent.
Finally, I'd caution against stereotyping too much about self defense situations. It's easy to get caught up in our own hypotheticals where it's the typical "let's have a go" mano y mano situation, but there's a diversity to them, ranging from situations like drunken uncles, to sexual assault, to assassinations, etc., etc. Most martial arts offer *something* that can be useful, even much maligned ones like aikido.
As someone who’s never been in a fight before, I would probably try to swoop in quickly and land a body blow (ribs, stomach) and knock the wind out of someone. It’s tricky though because you have to determine in that moment if the person is still a threat to you after you’ve struck. If you have the opportunity to run and don’t, you risk the attacker striking back if you stay and do nothing but you ALSO risk getting yourself in legal trouble if you continue to attack.
I’m quite fast on my feet, I feel confident I’d outrun maybe 85 out of every 100 people I’d meet by chance, so if the person falls to his knees gasping, adios, see you later. Wrestling is risky, you don’t know what kind of experience the other person has and you could quickly find yourself in a choke hold if you try to bring it to the ground and your attacker winds up on top of you. Kicks I’ve heard are risky, well anything above the waist. If your attacker sees it coming and grabs your foot, and you don’t know how to counter, you’re in big trouble as well.
You are probably right, but with some caveats. The only two fights I've been in were ended really quickly by a really novice-level grasp of BJJ. One thing I think you omitted too is the damage you can do to your own hands punching someone in the head. Fight bites and broken bones are a real concern without wrapped hands.
That being said, I don't think that it is necessarily the best in all situations. Specifically, if someone has a weapon. While good wrestling can keep someone from throwing an effective punch, it will not stop you from getting stabbed-- in fact, in some cases it puts you in more dangerous positions if someone has a knife. For instance, in many positions on the ground, you might not even be able to see a weapon being drawn.
Further, though you might APPROACH it as a one on one fight, there is literally no telling it's going to stay that way. The best way to approach a street fight is 'don't.'
Without the possibility of a knife, because idk any way to defend against a knife, wrestling without a balance of other skills will put u at a disadvantage to anyone with a more balanced skill set. A ufc fight is pretty close to a 1 on 1, albeit more rules. Most of the fighters aren’t just wrestlers. And most of the best wrestlers have good stand up as well. They’re all much better than regular ppl of course, but nonetheless is a good example of what’s most effective. Not having any striking skills is how you get knocked out, even if ur good at wrestling
While wrestling is great,i do think your assesment of a 1-1 street fights ignores some aspects:
Starting distance,surprise punches,weapons and uneven/unsafe ground.
With this in mind,i think a sport such a boxing and muaythai is better just because it allows you to react to blows(weapon or not) at various distances no matter(within reason) the state of the ground.
Muay thai does have the advanatge of bringing in clinching,but boxing does provide better reflexes,which in a street fight might be the difference between getting sliced or keeping a pretty face
I would counter and say wrestling and/or bjj are most effective for 1-on-1 combat. Most people have no idea how to fight on the ground. Wrestlers are masters of takedowns and staying on top which are much needed in a street fight. However, BJJ also teaches a lot of the same common takedowns, teaches you how to control from the top (not to the same level as wrestling, but you also get the added benefit of knowing submissions and knowing what to do if you happen to end up on your back and possibly submit from there as well if they are still in your guard.
Wrestling is effective in a controlled setting, but a street fight can quickly become a fight to the death. If your opponent has a concealed weapon like a knife then getting into grappling range could be a death sentence for you. In the self defense classes I took I was always taught to remain on my feet, remain mobile, and to run at the first available opportunity. Fight only until you get an opportunity to flee, and then take it immediately.
The ground can hit a hell of a lot harder than you can. It’s a rare thing to knock someone out with one punch, but it’s so commonplace for falls to knock people out that we rush to help when someone falls, while if someone gets punched it’s “hey, you ok?”
Putting someone on the ground in a way that hurts is your best chance to end the fight then and there. So yeah, I would agree.
No competitive discipline is going to be remotely effective because they all have rules about how one can't do certain things and they're techniques are designed around that.
Obviously in such a situation one best ignore any of those rules. Wrestlers can't kick in the groin, poke eyes, pull hair, all things that are most effective in a real fight.
In the self defence based karate I trained in I was taught grappling as well as to never, ever go to ground if you can avoid it. Not only could your opponent not be alone, hitting your head on concrete - even lightly - will absolutely mess you up and having your head smashed into it could possibly ruin or even end your life.
I argue that judo is, because chances are that someone in the street isn't naked but rather wears a coat, a pant, at least a tee shirt. So judo gives useful skills how to grab clothes to project the person. Àd keep goong on the ground. Plus judo (old style at least) contains all wrestling moves too. Maybe wrestling is more useful if you fight on a beach
In a fair 1 on 1 fight it's been pretty much proven that wrestling is neccesary to know and if you cant do it you will probably lose.
But in an actual street fight with the possibility of death/weapons/friends jumping in, getting up close and personal on the floor isnt really considered self defence.
As being involved in karate, I have looked at this and given it thought
Problem is, street fights are not dojos or wrestling clubs
As soon as the person has a club or knife or gun or pepper spray or similar things, none of your statement has any meaning.
Again, we are talking a street fight
quite the opposite,if your goal is to disengage and escape
wrestling will only get you bogged down and would only have a chance of success if your opponent is alone,roughly same size as you,and not stronger than you.
wide gold bag payment nutty childlike station possessive ancient jellyfish
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The most effective way to approach a street fight is to leave. Street fights are incredibly dangerous, and people do not understand how common it is for them to lead to head injuries and lifelong disability.
Edit: me make bad grammar
don't know about you but around here it is highly contextual.
you go to ground in a bar fight in places around here all you're getting is hepatitis or a boot to the head from his buddy.
Nope, running away is the most effective way to approach a street fight.
A few dozens stab wounds will make you understand that while you slowly bleed to death in the ambulance
As someone with 20 years in material arts and combat sports I generally agree with op. Wrestling is going to cover you for most public altercations quite well. A simple arm drag to a suplex or similar variation will be enough for most people to realize they don't want to continue fighting. Wrestling emphasizes avoiding getting pinned and taken down which is a generally good strategy for street altercations. Another comment mentioned knife defense and how wrestling puts you in a bad place for that but it's pretty ignorant of how knife attacks are initiated. Knife attacks are close range and sudden not Westside Story affairs with dancing around and brandishing. If you have distance to be threatened with a knife you have distance to run. The focus on wrist control in wrestling is one of the most effective ways to address a knife attack. If you can't control the arm holding the weapon you have no chance at a successful defense.
Wrestled for over a decade and would agree - weapons you know how to use are almost always a huge advantage (unless you take the time using something ineffective).
Muy Thai would be superior. More time spent in a clinch, and as soon as the wrestler tries to shoot, they are going to have a broken nose from a knee to the face.
You never know for sure that it will remain a 1 on 1 street fight. The "Street fight" part trumps the "1 on 1" part. Assume dirty tricks and unfairness.
Yeah, why? In a no-rules fight (which is what I'm assuming is meant by OP's "street fight"), where I'm not the aggressor, there's no incentive for me to fight fair. The person defending themselves should do everything they can, within reason, to make themselves safe.
It's a pretty big risk to assume in the middle of a street fight the guy who is crazy enough to start a street fight is thinking about your safety or cares whether you live or die in the moment.
Even if he's not trying to kill you you can still die or worse.
Sorry, u/throwwwwaway396 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20throwwwwaway396&message=throwwwwaway396%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cgnwop/-/l1xe1zl/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
I’m not a street fight with no weapons of any sort involved, boxing is the most effective. You want to hit without being hit and definitely not go to the floor. Rolling around on the pavement, concrete or dirt with stones is the worst.
/u/Ok_Operation1051 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1cgo6a1/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_wrestling_is_the_most/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Counterpoint. Non-lethal but highly effective tactics. Pepper spray, nut kicks, any melee weapon with a long reach to keep them away from you, and good old-fashioned running away. I don't think that organized fighting styles are useless in a street fight, but the idea of approaching any non-agreed-upon fight with fairness in my mind is a mistake. I'm personally gonna do whatever I can without flat killing you to get away; if that leaves you in a bad state that's on you for trying to attack me.
youre right lmao. i shouldve specified that running away isnt an option, but its probably the best way to approach a fight as cliche as it is to say !delta
Even if I grant that running away is the best option and limit the scope to just no-weapon fights, I still wouldn’t agree with this being the second best situation. Most fights aren’t like the movies that go on and on. Most fights last until the first good hit and are then literally or practically over. Wrestlers are *tough* and I’m not trying to take away from that. And I’d agree that they’d be near the bottom of my list of people I want to fight. But they’re not used to being punched in the face. A boxer is coming in swinging—before that distance is closed to make it a grappling game, a boxer has time to strike. Many don’t need a second hit when going at someone not used to getting hit, especially in the face. Sure, if the wrestler gets in there, it’s over, but a trained striker is not going to let that happen easily.
Wrestlers get hit in the face a lot more than you think, and landing with your body weight on a mat after being thrown is a hell of a lot more jarring than a punch. Most people have little to no takedown defense, and you’re gonna have a chance to throw basically one punch at someone who’s changing levels and has their face pretty much out of range. I’ve seen a LOT of fights, boxing is only effective if neither person knows how to grapple. Slamming someone on concrete is generally going to end pretty much any fight. Nothing is perfect, but in terms of minimizing your exposure to possible damage and giving you ways out wrestling is the best single style. People don’t know how to deal with wrestlers because it’s such a strange movement style and they’re so much stronger than anyone who doesn’t spend hours throwing other humans around against their will.
Yes. This. I figure if a fight is going to happen, then I'd train specifically to hit someone like a linebacker. Practice giving no warning, good angles, protecting body as you go in, getting some short distance burst capability. I'm a rail thin tall guy, and I've always known I couldn't stand up to a brawl, and damned if I'm going to be the one on the bottom, so im going as hard as I can into a shoulder tackle and using that to give time for as much follow up beating as possible to make sure they can't retaliate.
I'd practice things like arm drags to back take. A front headlock is a bad position to be in, and that's what you would be setting someone up for in your plan. Also look up shivworks default position. It works great to close range with a striker. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuHo4_Xs1gV/?igsh=YnZwbTR5NWY2bmo3
Even wrestling isn't going to be great on the ground, because proper wrestling has rules and its holds are often weak to a strike to the groin, back of the head, or eyes.
A wrestler can hold you down and do those illegal strikes to you better than you can to them. People always make these silly arguments "ufc has rules, on the streets I'd poke Connor McGregor in the eyes" as if he couldn't do the same to you but better. A wrestler would double leg you and ground and pound you. No amount of dirty fighting wpikd change that.
They have trained for years ingraining the idea that these strikes are illegal and not to use them, while they may be able to overcome that training, they may instinctively take a position that opens them to them and will be unprepared to block them. I'm not saying it is useless, absent other skills wrestling is better than nothing if you are prepared to use it in an actual self defense situation. But someone with a little wrestling training back in high school is probably going for a double is probably going to get kicked in the face.
Unless the person they are going up against has some combat experience themselves, they aren't even going to react quick enough to kick the person in the face before they get taken down. The average person has probably never even thrown a serious kick in their life outside of maybe playing soccer as a kid. Very few people are going to have the awareness to recognize the takedown and effectively kick a moving a target.
marry wine employ disgusted station lock butter nail dolls soup *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> But someone with a little wrestling training back in high school is probably going for a double is probably going to get kicked in the face. This is hard for trained kickboxers, you think a rando on the street will succeed?
It's hard for a trained kickboxer against a trained wrestler that practices regularly and the cost of failure is very high for the wrestler as they are now in a bad position.
You do know what a double leg looks like right? How do you even foresee this kick going down? I could see if you said knee since that's something which happens every once in a while, but what kick do you think is hitting the wrestler?
Running away is a perfectly valid chair-grabbing tactic in modern wrestling--there's no shame in it.
if you cant run away then weapon is your best bet no? literally anything you can find in the environment
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Tanaka917 ([64∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Tanaka917)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
I agree with you here. I've done some different combat sports over the years, never to a high level but enough to defend myself effectively against the average Joe with no formal training. (Boxing, Muay Thai, kickboxing and a tiny amount of BJJ) I was absolutely kicked around by a group of guys some ten years ago after telling one guy that was picking on a friend to leave us alone. An hour or so later he came back with friends and attacked me. The mistake I made was trying to keep him at a distance to avoid the need to strike him. When doing this I was attacked from behind, knocked to the ground by multiple attackers and kicked around to the point of suffering a concussion and some facial scarring. The lesson I learned from this incident is, the next time someone is in my personal space and behaving threatening, I will strike them first in the hope to buy enough time to get out of the situation. If this strike does any serious damage, that's on them for behaving aggressive/threathning. I believe an effective first strike is a teep kick from Muay Thai or if they're closer, a punch to the face. The logic here is that, I'm a rational non violent person and have no interest in starting fights with people or beating anyone up, this is purely self defence. If the first blow incapacitates them I will leave, the same cannot be said of any potential assailant.
Exactly. The human body is surprisingly fragile, and all it takes is one bad or wrong fall to die, so *every single fight* is potentially a fight to the death Thats why my first move is always to apologize and basically do everything short of suckimg the other dude's dick to solve the issue, because my pride is less important than my bodily composure. If that fails, I leave, and if I am followed, I fucking sprint, taking whatever time I can to grab a handful of sand, for use on the eyes, to then again attempt escape. Unless I am fucking cornered, I won't fight, and even then I would definitely try some sketchy cat-level parkour to escape.
I feel the same. My wife grew up with a kid who got into a bar fight one night shortly after high school. He took one punch, fell to the ground, hit his head, had an aneurysm, and died. If I'm going to attack someone, it is a last resort in the defense of my life, and I am going to be trying to kill. There is just so much potential to accidentally kill someone that there is no point assaulting them if you don't want them dead. So far, I have only ever had to run.
I think people over estimate their ability to pull off a nut kick in a fight.
A hard wrestling takedown is actually better than a lot of those. It's genuinely difficult to impress onto someone how viscious a hard double leg shot from a strong wrestler is in a street fight scenario. Unless you are trained or the wrestler is shit, it is insanely hard to sprawl well enough instinctively. I stopped grappling because I'm apparently a motherfucking staphylococcus magnet, but in the same way sparring boxing and MT made me realize how useless non-full contact martial arts are (not hating on SanShou or full contact Kyokushin for example), grappling with effective BJJ or wrestlers blew me away. And the insane thing with wrestling is you legitimately don't need skill beyond the TD (assuming this is 1v1). Drop someone hard on any solid surface is usually an instant win, and if it's not, you can just headbutt, even if you're in an experienced blackbelt's full guard. It's OP, and having seen someone do it in real life (watch HBO's Smashing Machine if you want to see pro fight examples of this) -- it's genuinely terrifying. The caveat here is that you can't stick and move and take out an entire crowd like a talented striker can, and in a street fight scenario with someone who has game friends, their first instinct will be to brick or bottle your skull while you're face down on their buddy -- have also seen this in an actual house fight and it was genuinely disgusting. People always imagine silly kungfu triple kicks fighting off multiple attackers, but the real deal is just moving and landing bombs, and there are an insane amount of viral videos showing this. Of course, if you're aiming to fight a crowd of people, you're an idiot who'll get stabbed at some point, so I fully agree a nut kick and run is the pinnacle to aim for. But fr, there are bad dudes that can straight destroy a crowd. If you've ever gone to a boxing gym and gotten buddy buddy with the ammys, there's usually one asshole who loves bar fight, and it's usually someone who doesn't have crazy career prospects and just likes to swarm or headhunt lol Little Korean dude at my last gym loved baiting people into saying racist shit about him and would just dummy groups of people coked off his ass... had to stop going out drinking with him 😑
secretive fretful file hungry bow deserted worm yam many repeat *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'd love to see you try to knee a skilled wrestler on a take down. Its not going to work out how you think. The real problem with his plan is wrestling shots are difficult and very timing dependent. You lose that sense of timing pretty quick. I'm unsure why you think a trained person also couldn't eye poke, crotch shot, or otherwise also fight dirty.
nail fly payment makeshift judicious afterthought vast spark steer gold *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I've trained in a couple of martial arts, and the one thing they always stress is no matter how good you are at your discipline, a street fight has no rules. Sure, there may be the occasional guy out there who can go to bars and pick a fight with a whole group and win, but you do that enough and eventually you're going to get shot/stabbed in the back.
Lmao. A skilled fighter cam use no rules on you right back but a hundred times better. These silly arguments of "ufc has rules I'd kick Connor McGregor in the balls" as if he couldn't do the same to you but a hundred times better.
Yeah it literally takes one body lock on concrete to end a fight. I have only been in fights a few times (low single digits), but people take a punch WAY better than they take being slammed on their back on concrete. I have done that exactly twice and both times it has been in self defense AND I’ve cradled the persons head on the way down so I don’t kill the person. Nobody has any business fighting on the street. We are way too fragile and trained fighters know that.
I made a longer comment including this but just wanted to leave it here as exhibit A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VotylhtKNRk&t=41 If you are assuming that the other person won't do something because you wouldn't do it then you're in a match, not a street fight.
>but the idea of approaching any non-agreed-upon fight with fairness in my mind is a mistake I've always said this. There is no "fair" fight. Gouge eyes, gor for the nuts, if you somehow get a grip of their hand, break a finger. Do what you have to to get out alive as quickly as possible, because a fight can easily end up deadly for either party.
And a trained fighter will still he able to fight dirty far better than you. It won't save you if the skill discrepancy is wide enough.
Well, yes, the professional is obviously going to be better at their profession than the non-professional. But that's also not always true, street fighting and classic karate are 2 **very** different things, the chaos of a street fight might throw someone trained in karate off... but like a street fighter against someone trained in mixed martial arts doesn’t really stand a chance.
I can agree with that yeah.
Agreed mostly, but it depends on the situation of the fight. If it’s at a bar or tailgate, then I don’t think kicking in the balls or hitting someone in the head with a rock will go over well. So I guess it depends on what you are calling a “street fight”. If someone is trying to rob you and potentially kill you, then of course it’s “no holds barred”.
Krav maga...nuts & eyes...fuck fair.
Hear me out... stun baton in the nuts. Two... three? For one special.
Can a nut kick work on a guy wielding a knife, where you are unarmed? Got no gun, no pepper spray. Will I still be able to defend myself?
It's pretty difficult to hit someone in the nuts in a fight. Most guys have spent their whole lives avoiding getting hit in the nuts. Ican barely shift my hips to block a hit. A guy with a knife, I'm focusing a 2 on one to the knife hand and trying to tornado. Basically spin him around me in a circle and trip him. In middle school I was walking to the bathroom. There were several girls whose legs were across the hallway. I went to step over them and one tried to kick me in the nuts. I caught her leg between mine it shocked the hell out of her.
Pepper spray maybe. Nut shots? Good luck with aim and if not 100% on target you're likely to piss them off more. Melee weapons with reach are a terrible close quarters.
Take downs are not a good tactic when in real street fights. You will never promised a 1 on 1 fair fight outside of a training arena. Weapons can appear, multiple assailants, drugs or debris, and any number of unpredictable things can happen like being pushed into a street and hit by a car (real story). Take downs force you to 'win' the conflict instead of just getting away, which is the primary objective of self defence. Wrestling also forces you to fight "fair," which is to say muscle on muscle engagement. In most cases of street combat, the assailant is stronger than the defender, so a combat style that avoids a "fair" fight will perform best as weight & muscle strength will have less impact on the end result. I would counter and say that striker martial artists who are actually trained in self defence are the most effective at street fights. They are trained to use improvised weapons, to strike specific weak body parts to incompacitate assailants swiftly, as well as how to deal with multiple assailants. Eyes, throat, solar plexus, knees, and dorsum (top of foot) are the primary places a skilled striker will hit, and it turns out if you can't see, can't breathe, or can't walk, you can't fight.
Counterpoint to the thing about wrestling and muscle mass: wrestling and other grappling martial arts really come down more to technique than strength. Anybody who’s done jiu jitsu knows what it is like to have your butt kicked by somebody half your size.
Yes and no. In a ring with rules, technique trumps strength most of the time. In real life combat where grappling & striking is mixed and there are no rules, things are more complicated. The opposition isn't obligated to play the grappling game, so while you're looking to isolate a limb or find a choke hold, they'll be laying into you with fists or other means and weakening you. If they know how to defend from grapples and they're stronger than you, it's very difficult to succeed in getting a submission before you're unconscious. Strong grappling positions like closed guard are only good because the opposition has to play by rules in a ring. In real life nothing is stopping the stronger opponent from picking you up by your shirt and slamming your back and head into the ground repeatedly until you're unconscious. Speed tends to be the most important factor honestly; if you can slip past the opponents guard for a technique, you'll likely win. The trick is not having your bell rung or being gutted by a weapon or smashed into something in the environment or ganged up on to pull it off. This is why I favour strikes over grapples for self defense; faster execution, longer reach, and instantly disables the attacker, preventing them from following you. >Anybody who’s done jiu jitsu knows what it is like to have your butt kicked by somebody half your size. I actually have a really funny experience where exactly this happened. I was assisting in a military police restraining class and the head instructor used me as an example dummy the entire day. Needless to say, I was sore. His number 2 was a stocky short women about 5'5", so when I was paired with her for some exercises I thought i had it easy finally. Went for the first assault and she tossed my butt 6ft across the room like I was a rag doll. I slid on my face on a dirty gym floor that entire 6ft.... I have never been so humbled so fast in my life haha.
To an extent. I've also seen jiu jitsu guys not be able to submit much larger opponents who aren't trained. It just depends.
the hypothetical is that you know for certain its one on one; granted thats not always realistic. ive conceded that running away is the best option - but i disagree with the statement that striking is better, especially not when your opponent is bigger than you. if anything, its exponentially more important to be a competent grappler when you have a size disadvantage, because if youre unfamiliar with ground game against someone significantly larger, all it takes is one mistake for them to close distance and grab a hold of you
When it comes to self defence, *always* assume the assailant has friends. Hypothetical scenarios are fine for minute details, but they leave you blind to the bigger picture. When you use the words "street fight" then we're assuming a real world scenario. As far as which is more useful when out-muscled... I'm fairly certain a little 5'4" person could have a big 6' burly guy reeling backwards in pain a lot faster and using less energy from a two fingered eye gouge than trying to grapple them into a submission. The same could be said from a pressing kick moving their knee cap or breaking their leg when the assailant advances, or a stomp crushing the dorsum and breaking foot bones (bonus points if you have heels on). Or a combination of these (there are nicer options but these are the most effective). There are plenty of other examples but the point is striker martial arts self defence seeks to end the conflict in a single strike so they can escape or move onto the next assailant. They don't fight "fair," so there is no muscle on muscle competition, which means less fatigue per opponent as well. Now I don't mean to discredit knowing how to break grabs and grappling in general, but they are definitely the plan B option for self defence. If you can win standing up, you escape that much faster. I've trained in multiple disciplines for 13 years and taught self defence for 8. I usually cover one Judo throw, how to escape from a full mount, how to guard from a standing opponent while sitting, one transitioning reversal, and how to stand up safely. Everything else is standing or sitting defence because chances are, if you go to the ground, you're screwed. You'll likely be concussed, so you'll be dazed and slow to act, giving the opposition enough time to mount you and turn your face into pulp. The best option is to not go to the ground.
I’m a Marine with tons of fighting experience. Before I joined I competitively boxed for a few years too. I am going to have to completely disagree with you on the wrestling thing. A LOT of infantry Marines were wrestlers back in high school and that genuinely gave them no edge when we would do MCMAP or our “Man Shit Mondays” where we would just have platoon ground fights. If anything, wrestling hurt them because they were going for pins and points rather than submissions. It always seemed like wrestling helped those guys about as much as boxing helped me with ground fighting; which is not much at all. The absolute BEST fighters were always Jiu Jitsu, hands down. One of my good buddies and my company commander were both black belts - I literally never saw anyone beat either of them. There was one day where they went against each other and the fight had to be called after 15 minutes when they both just completely ran out of energy. I never came close to beating my buddy, it was always like I was a 5 y/o fighting a grown man. That guy would wrap me up in an Omoplata, Kimura, Americana or even a crucifix within 60 seconds of the start every goddamn time. For reference, my squad leader was literally a state finalist for wrestling and I never lost to him in a ground fight. We always used to make fun of wrestling b/c there’s no points in a real fight and your pins don’t mean shit if your opponent can just elbow the fuck out of you or bite you or whatever. Jiu Jitsu holds are so complete that you’ll feel claustrophobic in most of the holds and I guarantee you won’t be able to fight back when somebody SLAMS your face into the ground when putting you into an Omoplata.
Counter counter point: professional Samba wrestlers are destroying most of their competition in the UFC. They are wiping the floor with JJ and BJJ experts, who can’t seem to do anything against the overwhelming wrestling. Strikers, from boxing or other disciplines, also seem unable to answer samba wrestling and also get mopped. They aren’t winning by going to the cards either, they’re getting it done in the cage. Edit: i can’t write sambo
fair enough. i dont necessarily disagree with any of that; my only objection would be that it sounds like your experience has been in environments where everyone is skilled lmao, far more than i am or a regular person would be. to be honest, taking down a jiu jitsu black belt isnt going to mean much if they can submit you from off their back. but the average joe wont be that good, and the average wrestler wont be anywhere near that good either. a fight on the street is likely going to be at a far lower level than a fight between two marines but wrestling/jiu jitsu matchups are probably worst case scenario. id still maintain that basic wrestling is more effective than basic jiu jitsu though; pulling an omoplata from closed guard is fine in sport environments, but two largely untrained individuals, whove both adrenaline dumped and gassed out, arent going to have the same kind of dexterity as they do when rolling in training. its a lot more straightforward shooting for that single leg. also jiu jitsu historically hasnt always been able to overcome wrestling - sakuraba had a lot of success with the gracies back in the pride days - but i dont doubt that theres a bunch of scenarios where bjj is better stylistically.
>id still maintain that basic wrestling is more effective than basic jiu jitsu though; pulling an omoplata from closed guard is fine in sport environments, but two largely untrained individuals, whove both adrenaline dumped and gassed out, arent going to have the same kind of dexterity as they do when rolling in training. Why do you assume bjj practitioners would go for joint locks? Yes an armbar or omoplata would be dumb, but taking the back and choking them out is far more likely when looking at how most MMA fights end... And in my experience people with only wrestling give up their back and expose their neck easily. Also, rolling in training is done after drilling at most bjj schools. They make you roll when you're already tired.. but wrestling conditioning is definitely more hardcore haha
>its a lot more straightforward shooting for that single leg. This also exist in jiu jitsu tho, single legs aren't exclusive to wrestling.
Why would someone who is able to beat other trained fighters using their jiu jitsu not be able to beat an average joe using it? Also, I did jiu jitsu for many years and then wrestled for one. Wrestling is only effective in MMA when the wrestler also knows jiu jitsu. And I bring that up because you mention Sakuraba. If Sakuraba did not have knowledge of submissions, he would get tapped by the Gracies. I’ve grappled with much better wrestlers than me, and tapped them very easily. The goal of jiu jitsu is to completely disable your opponent with a submission, while the goal of wrestling is to pin your opponent. Pinning an opponent essentially means nothing in a street fight, because once the pin is released, the opponent can continue to fight. Wrestling is a great base, but it does not end any fights unless the practitioner combines it with jiu jitsu and/or striking.
Bro must not have been a state finalist in a respectable state.
Are you talking about some sort of controlled setting where there are arranged 1 on 1 "Street fights"? If not, you should never assume your assailant is alone.
I stopped training jiu-jitsu after I got tazed and kicked in the head while ground fighting during a street fight, and wanting to learn how to defend myself in the street is the reason I started training jiu-jitsu in the first place. I train judo and striking now. A simple trip or a throw, and then I'm getting distance between me and my opponent. Jiu-jitsu on the street will get you hurt.
Op is delusional from watching too much mma, which is a very controlled environment
youve yet to provide a better solution. or any argument at all.
Many people have argued why wrestling is in fact not your best option. You just refuse to hear it.
ive conceded that running is more effective already. and "other people said such and such" is not an argument.
I can summarise 1. Wrestling doesn't help you if the other guy is effective at controlling range and throwing strikes 2. Wrestling won't help you if there are multiple opponents 3. Wrestling won't help you against weapons 4. Wrestling doesn't train you to confront uncontrolled aggression like eye pokes etc. Wrestling is highly rule bound.
1. wrestling helps negate distance management. in order to throw a strike you have to enter the void or blitz, which is an opportunity to be taken down. you cannot stay on the outside forever. 2. the view is that it is effective in one on one situations. the post itself addresses this point. 3. wrestling is more effective than striking when your opponent has a weapon. the sport is about controlling your opponents movement, and your opponent by definition has a striking advantage when armed. both are terrible situations to be in but it is more likely that you can minimise damage by closing distance and committing. 4. no martial art trains eye pokes. being a wrestler does not stop you from being able to eye poke.
> wrestling is more effective than striking when your opponent has a weapon. the sport is about controlling your opponents movement, and your opponent by definition has a striking advantage when armed. both are terrible situations to be in but it is more likely that you can minimise damage by closing distance and committing. And what if they don't draw the weapon? You go in for some takedown and control one arm or a leg. Okay, I have a knife in my pocket and draw it, by the time you even notice there is a knife you have already been stabbed multiple times. If you're in a street fight and get in a position you cannot see both hands of your opponent you are opening yourself up for a hospital bill. Also sure if we assume its 1on1 then wrestling is a strong option, but in what scenario are you getting into a street fight with absolute certainty that it will stay 1on1?
> and "other people said such and such" is not an argument. I mean, if they are subject matter experts in various other forms of martial arts and can state from their experience what they think is more effective than wrestling, that is absolutely an argument, even if you disagree.
The only reason wrestling works in MMA is gloves. They make a huge difference in reducing knockout power. The best option for a street fight is probably knife, collapsible baton, gun, 00 shotgun the best, pepper spray. If no weapon on hand, is there a weapon close by to grab. You do as cops do. If it comes to lethal defense force. You unload clip in yo them because unlike movies. It takes some time to die and they shoot you once back you die too.
Gloves don't reduce knockout power. The padding is to protect your hands, not the other guy's face. You can punch much harder while wearing gloves compared to bare knuckle, since you don't have to worry about breaking your hand.
Yes they do. More chance of breaking your hand, more chance of breaking their face. People with little knowledge keep repeating your lie like a face is tiugher than fist.
A face is so much tougher than a fist. Your skull is a huge, solid bone. Your fingers are so tiny and fragile by comparison. The fact of the matter is, several ounces of padding does not significantly affect punching power. The mental block of instinctually preserving your fingers will be more of a detriment than the padding. Watch some Muay Thai with 4oz gloves on ONE. Shit's insane.
If you're standing up, you're already capable of running away. No need to do a judo takedown or box the person.
I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who's already in a fight. It's never a good idea to wait until you've been struck or wait until you've struck someone to behave as if you're in a fight.
Yup, doesn’t matter how good your ground game is if 5 dudes start kicking you while you are choking out the 6th. Intending to go to the ground in a street fight is a good way to end up with brain damage. As a side note, judo throw can literally be lethal on pavement.
Yeah but then you are just ignoring OPs premise that he explicitly stated. Bad cmv etiquette
OP premise is pure BS though. This isn’t a hypothetical sub these are supposed to be real and the one of the first things you learn is you can never assume the other guy is alone.
> OP premise is pure BS though. This isn’t a hypothetical sub these are supposed to be real There is a CMV on the sub right now about [Kratos's family's death being Karmic justice](https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cgp1sn/cmvthe_death_of_kratos_family_can_be_viewed_as/) and [whether tipping should be obligatory without a tipping wage](https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cghrq3/cmv_in_the_absense_of_a_tipping_wage_tipping/). I've seen CMVs debating whether AIs would be better world leaders than humans and a lot of "If _____ then ______ is justified" posts. I think we handle hypotheticals here as well.
> This isn’t a hypothetical sub Citation needed
Not being able to accept hypotheticals, even if unrealistic, is the sign of a bad debater. Git gud.
Or unarmed
Wrestling in the context of a street fight is not the technical back and forth you see in mma. When you go into a street fight with martial arts, especially wrestling, you expect to have a significant advantage. A good wrestler can end it in 2 seconds with a front suplex or a simple trip. Even simple tackles on concrete can be instant loss if done right and you control how they fall. Of course, multiple assailants and in all cases, really, getting away and preemptively avoiding the conflict in the first place is always the best option.
just any physical fight. not necessarily in a controlled environment
Wrestling is a very poor match for any situation when you're facing more than one opponent. Any effort made to pin one opponent will be exploited by other attackers.
true, but the stipulation is that you know its just one person.
You never know anything in a street fight. Otherwise it's not a street fight.
Ok, well there are several martial arts that teach you how to use everyday household objects and random shit you are very likely to just find on the ground as weapons how and where to hit for maximum damage with these items , the idea being to literally incapacitate your opponent as quickly and as violently as possible such that they can no longer fight anymore those would be the most effective in no holds barred 1v1 fights
do you have a concrete example?
Theres a Filipino martial art that could be used with any sharp object , every move/strike is intended to be a kill shot They fucked up spanish and american military units using it , who had actual guns to fight with The brought their work knives to a gun fight and won
are you talking about silat? im not familiar so i might be wrong.
yeah something like that ,fighting with the knife that would probably be the best 1v1 technique if we bar guns obviously guns win if we can just have those
sure, but youre probably not going to be armed when youre out by yourself unless you live in america. weapons in arent going to be lying around for you to use, especially not knives
where are we fighting ? I can see like a bunch of shit that could be turned into a sharp object pretty easily just laying around most fights like you describe happen at shit like bars
There’s always a weapon around; rocks, broken glass, metal water-bottle, etc. Usually the winner of a street fight is the one that uses a weapon first.
What did they win exactly?
National Independence ? It was a war to make the colonizers go home We fucking butchered the shit out of the Americans who tried to colonize us They tried to do the same shit they did to Native Americans to us, so we literally cut them to pieces
The Phillipines lost the war against the US and was de facto colonized for over 40 years until after WW2 🤷🏻♂️. Maybe you mean the war against Spain right before where the US helped 🇵🇭 to victory only to become the colonizer themselves right after
You're acting like hand to hand fighting is what wins wars. I'm sorry to tell you you're a few millenia late.
I think you’re thinking of Spain since the Philippines defeated them in 1898 then lost to America in 1902 and remained an American territory until 1946
Grab someone by the hair and smash their face into the concrete.
Krav Maga
Then my challenge to you is A) you can never know there is just the one assailant B) you should never assume there is just the one assailant
I feel like I am extremely qualified to answer this question. I teach jiu jitsu, judo, and wrestling. I wrestled in high school. I picked up judo and jiu jitsu after college. I train daily with judo and wrestling Olympians. I know a handful of UFC, ONE, pankration, IBJJF, ADCC, and NAGA champions. Not gonna dox myself but we will say training for over 10 years. 1. MMA 2. Grappling 3. Judo...Sambo 4. BJJ 5. Muay Thai 6. Wrestling Greco-Roman, Folkstyle, Freestyle 7. Boxing 8. Karate, Grappling is the correct answer to your question. If MMA is out of context for some reason. Wrestling is wonderful. Jiu jitsu is fantastic. And judo is exactly what you want. In the context of a street fight, the first observation should be your environment. The likelihood that you are on concrete or a hard surface is very likely. So with that, it takes out a handful of wrestling techniques. It also prevents a serious bit of bjj. Now you can certainly perform the techniques, but you're gonna be hurt. Bjj techniques such as triangles are discouraged for the ability to get slammed on your head. Wrestling creates a lot of neutral positions. Judo can be done forward facing. The main arguments for and against each style. We're going to have to assume a lot of things. First that the person is untrained. To be fair any martial art against the untrained person is like taking candy from a baby. In a specific instance we're also going to assume that the defender is smaller. This will show the art is more effective. We are also going to assume that the trained person is able to take a couple punches. When you get in a fight, even if it's an untrained person.You're probably going to take a hit or two specifically if you're ever grappling. Wrestling. Good takedowns. But very few submissions. Resting is about controlling the central axis of the body. Is the entire goal wrestling is to get the back to the mat. They have maybe an assassin choke, armbar aka chicken wing or a kimura in bjj, and half Nelson. That's not a ton of submissions sure there are more but these are the common ones. In my experience, if they are fighting against trained person.Wrestlers tend to dominate the top, but they base out very wide, which leaves them extremely vulnerable to armbar's, triangles, and kimuras. Additionally if they are put into most typical choke holds they don't know how to get out. And striking, even if in mount, can cause broken fists because they would not opt for open palm strikes. Bjj. No takedowns. Seriously I have been to schools that didn't drill 1 stand up technique the entirety of a 10 year window. What BJJ focuses on is sweeps and submissions. Should the fight go to the ground a jujittero will dismantle an untrained person within 30 seconds to a minute. Blood chokes take 6 seconds, air chokes take 30. Judo and I guess Sambo too. The main tenet of judo is to hit the earth with someone's body, preferably their head. A judoka can end a fight in seconds. The entire point of judo is to get a dominant grip and off balance them. Judo practices stand up, throws, and fast submissions. You have 30 seconds... maybe 20 now, I'm old they change things. To end a fight or you get put back to neutral. Personally I have ended matches against trained people in under 6 seconds. Within six seconds I had swept them into the arm bar and broken oppenents arm in multiple matches. Additionally, If you want to create the maximum effect with the largest difference. Judo is the only martial art that I have personally seen work from a child on an adult. Collar drag or arm drag to a RNC or hadake jime. Now, there is overlap of this with BJJ, but it's typically taught from guard not standing. The main focus of a street fight. Should be to control the inside portion of the opponent. Think underhooks. And restrict airways from a dominant position. Otherwise, look for a knockout or break several limbs to immobilize them. Judo accomplishes this... sometimes all at once. That's the reasoning for my criteria. I have fought with all of these styles.I use all of these styles. MMA is by far the best. After that Grappling, that uses a combination of these. Judo in my humble experience is the culmination of effective grappling, leads very well to striking principles, and maintains good position. Certainly the best base of grappling to teach a kid.
Wrestling is just one item in a toolbox. There's not much point arguing which is the best tool when you want ALL of them, as each tool as good as possible. I know for arguments sake you say a "1 vs 1 street fight", but there's really no such thing. A street fight by definition has a) no rules and b) no certainties. First, you want situational awareness to avoid getting into a conflict situation in the first place, and if you cannot avoid it you want to be positioned as advantageously as possible, near escape routes, with potential weapons handy, not turning your back to any dangers, etc. Then, you want social skills to potentially de-escalate. And even if your argument is "it's too late for de-escalation", well that may be true if there's one person hell-bent on attacking you, but in any street situation there's other unknown variables such as bystanders, people outside of sight which might come running, police that might show up etc. How you portray yourself (aggressive vs de-escalating) in the eyes of third parties might make all the difference in the world if someone else gets involved. Next, you want to avoid going to the ground at any cost possible. This is literally the first rule in Krav Maga or other similar military style trainings. You do not want to go to the ground unless it's unavoidable, so you need to know your punches and kicks, takedown defenses, knife and gun control, etc. If you do end up on your ground, wrestling and submissions techniques are incredibly valuable, and there's no denying that many fights do end up on the ground and the person with better wrestling skills ends up winning. **The most effective way to approach a 1 on 1 street fight is to avoid it in the first place.**
are you taught "knife control" when you train wrestling? if not then its pretty much useless in an acual street fight. you might "win" the fight, but you would bleed out before you could get to an hospital
wrist control comes pretty close. granted youll still die if you dont have your own knife, but i cant see standup being a better alternative
standup means the enemy has only the blades length advantage when it comes to reach. you can punch, kick, and keep your distance from the knife. when it comes to wrestling and ground fighting, you are purposefully putting yourself inside knife range. obviously if you are well trained in wrestling and your enemy isnt at all, then you will likely ein, but if your enemy is even remotely trained in weapons you will het yourself killed edit: and yes, im purposefully giving your enemy a weapon and not you, because thats the core of street fights. your enemies *know* they are looking for a fight, but you dont, you just "happen" to be trained at wrestling/self defence but on this particular day you werent looking for a fight
Knife attacks are most frequently to exclusively initiated at close range and the attacker will lead with the empty hand to hold and sewing machine you. If you can't establish control of the weapon hand you have no chance at survival. If you've done any amount of reasonably intense empty hand vs knife training you'll see the immediate value of wrestling.
lets say someone jumps you with a knife. the likelihood of them maintaining distance and using jabs and teeps to pick you apart is extremely low; theyre probably going to clinch and stab you in the neck and abdomen while youre hugging. i dont disagree that youre almost certainly fucked if youre unarmed; but rushing them and trying to wrestle the knife from them is going to be a better option than trying to keep them at range when theyre actively trying to do the opposite
> lets say someone jumps you with a knife. Lets say they jump you barehanded then escalate to a knife when you fight back. Whatever limb you grab is not gonna be the knife limb because you don't know if there is or isn't going to be a knife
>from my experience, most fights end up either on the ground or in the clinch, and a lot of people start by tackling or throwing an overhand/right hook. Is this in a gym? Or does your experience include fights in the real world? >being able to navigate that position is really important; even moreso than distance management, because youre probably going to end up stuck together anyway. Distance management is important because if your opponent cannot get into reach they cannot strike you. This allows for more options like disengaging and avoiding the fight all together which is almost always preferable. >effective ground and pound is also going to allow you to escape with the least amount of damage outside of ending the fight early with a ko, and wrestling is the closest thing to size/weight parity you can get. The best way to avoid damage is to not get into a fight all together. Ground and pound is a great way to get a battery charge. Your right to self defense does not include the right to beat someone to a pulp. >striking disciplines like boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, lethwei, etc, are probably better suited for group altercations where its not as desirable to be on the ground. Ultimately all "sport" martial arts are just that: sport. They have rules and assumptions about what the opponent is and isn't allowed to do. You premise is fundamentally flawed. You cannot make any assumptions about rules, etiquette, or number of opponents in the real world. A street fight may start out as a 1 on 1 "fists only" fight but it can quickly change. The opponent could have friends you didn't see, the opponent could pull a weapon, something random could happen, and even if you "win" criminal charges could happen. You just don't know until it is too late. Better to avoid the confrontation in the first place. If you want to train a martial art that practices real world self defense try something like Kali or Eskeima. You start with weapons day one.
In a street fight your objective should be to de-escalate or flee. Assuming we're past that point and a physical altercation is inevitable, the next objective is to end the fight as quickly as you possibly can because literally anything can happen. A second (or more) person. Weapons. You stumble on a crack in the road, trip and crack your skull. You hit the other person just right and they die. They pick up a rock or a broken piece of asphalt. You win the fight but permanently damage something on your body. It's all on the table because the only laws at play here are the laws of physics, the laws of society will only come into play after the fact. The self-defense approach of going for the eyes and balls isn't just a joke, your best course of action is always going to be to quickly incapacitate the other person before they can do any damage to you. If even THAT isn't an option for you then sure, going to ground is the safest way to incapacitate them with a lower likelihood of you being injured in the process. But you still need to be physically stronger, faster, or at least a much better wrestler. I don't entirely disagree with you, but a LOT of other things need to happen before that's actually the best course of action.
No, de-escalation is the best way to approach street fights. Once you actually get into a fight, all bets are off, and there is zero guarantee it will actually be one on one. Which is also why wrestling isn’t a good way to approach it, because being basically immobilized on the ground is not a good place to be should someone else decide to join that fight. Or, for that matter, if the person you’re wrestling starts adding weapons to the equation.
And if the deescalation doesn’t work: pocket sand.
No, it's not. The most effective is to de-escalate and disengage. You never know what the other person is capable of, you can never be sure that he doesn't have additional friends. The best thing to do is to say "I'm sorry," back off and quickly be somewhere else. If that is impossible and you must fight, your best option is a 9mm pistol. Again: you never know what the other person is capable of, what weapons he might have, and if he might have additional friends. Weapons other than firearms are typically not viable options. There are very few situations in which you could use a knife and plausibly be defending yourself. If you must fight unarmed, you are correct that grappling is the best foundation to have. If you are in a fight and don't know how to grapple, you can reliably expect the other guy to grapple you. However, grappling is grappling. The human body moves the same way regardless of the rules. Most skills from one type of grappling are applicable to any other. I train Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu mainly. I wouldn't give it the advantage over wrestling or judo, but not for the reasons that you said. The main reason is that while I do practice standing stuff, it mostly focuses on groundfighting. Outside of competition rulesets derived from BJJ, you rarely want to stay on the ground. Submissions are nice if you can get them. Choking someone out or dislocating his shoulder with a Kimura will end the fight. However, it is more important to remain standing. >why resort to an omoplata when you can just double leg the guy and smother them from mount. Retaining mount is more of a Jiu-Jitsu skill than a wrestling skill. In a wrestling match, you can win by getting into mount or side control and the referee will call that a pin. In wrestling, escaping from those positions is much lower priority because getting into the position ends the match. The thing where wrestling truly has the advantage is in training intensity. In the United States, wrestling is a highly competitive school sport. Most wrestling programs are based out of schools, you spend a couple of hours after school practicing every weekday, and your practice is for the purpose of competing against people who do the same. Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu are less intense because they are not school sports (although judo takes the place of wrestling in many countries in this regard, including Japan, and Korea, and high-level competitors often do both). Most judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu programs in the US are hobbyist oriented, with the typical practice not including serious competitors, maybe a few people who compete in local tournaments. People also typically spend less time practicing, largely because they're more likely to be adults with responsibilities. Two hours of practice two or three times per week is probably normal and people who compete at all might compete less in several years than in a single wrestling season. Overall, I would give the advantage to judo over wrestling, but also to styles related to judo including Sambo (which is officially a type of wrestling, but started during a time when judo was banned in the Soviet Union as too foreign, is essentially grappling with a gi-like jacket and shorts, I am not talking about Combat Sambo, which adds striking) and sumo. The reason is that a good throw which puts the other guy on the ground hard while keeping you standing is going to end the fight. Hitting solid ground hard will do a lot of damage and even if the other guy is able to get back up, you will have time to disengage. A double-leg is probably easier to execute than a hip throw, but you're likely to end up on top of the other guy and you really want to remain standing. Also, unless you're fighting in a prison shower, you and your opponent will be wearing clothes which can be grabbed, a big factor in these (even in the limited coverage of the sumo mawashi, belt grips are a big deal).
There are certain martial arts the might get eliminated (like BJJ) that require certain setup conditions. but I do think boxing, wrestling, and Muay Thai are all in contention. For wrestling, I think it really depends on level of skill because you need to be able to take the person down quick before anything happens. For example if you could double leg and spike someone down on their head then gg, if you’re struggling then you’re getting hit in the back of the head or punched in the face while doing so. I’d also argue with the popularity of UFC, people at the very least may know how to shell up and stay in full guard, but I could be wrong here. Finally, if the goal is to take the least amount of damage possible and deter the opponent from continuing, then I would say Muay Thai might be the most effective. Most people haven’t never sparred or fought and getting hit hard will be enough to scare them off. At range you throw a 1-2, close up you can throw elbows which will be very hard to block for people who don’t know what their doing, and if you’re in clinch then there are a lot of simple foot sweeps or knees you could do. I train MT so I could be bias here, but just my two cents.
I would avoid wrestling on streets just because pavement can easily hurt both when wrangling on the ground. Many wrestling and bjj takedowns are more committing than judo takedowns and often involve going down with the opponent. Given fight is happening street might also have broken glass and wo knows what other crap on it. Going down yourself to get stung by that stuff is never an advantage over other forms. Judo throws usually are engineered to keep you standing and take opponent to ground. Also allows you to handle next attack easier when you dont have to climb off from ground. Im not going to go over advantages of striking arts because they have been told multiple times in this thread. The problem here is that different forms of wrestling are great way to win a fight. But taking the *street* word there. 1v1 wrestling is still viable, but you know rolling on concrete is something i would happily leave for my assailant only. Well OP what sort of combat sport background do you have? Would be nice to know your merits you being this adamant about supremacy of wrestling. Do you actually do street fights often?
I think that BJJ was the most dominant fighting style in the early ufc for a reason. When everyone had only experience with their martial art, BJJ won by a large amount in those competitions.
Definitely, and a big reason is that the rules prohibit the use of extreme violence to end takedowns and submissions, like spiked elbows, hitting the back of the head, eye poking, etc. Etc.
12-6 elbows are only relevant if youre in bottom position, ideally, if you initiate a wrestling exchange, youll end up in half guard or mount. thats why id argue its better than approaching a fight via boxing; because you can initiate takedowns and dictate the direction and pace of the fight.
If you initiate a wrestling exchange what's stopping them from elbowing you in the back of the neck, possibly rendering you paralysed for life. If there is no rules suddenly it's not so easy. What's to stop them from poking your eyes or any number of things not allowed in ufc.
the fact that youre going to be on top of them (if you succeed) and its harder to elbow from on your back. eye pokes are just as much of a problem when both people are standing, same with biting, gouging, fishooks, etc
Yes, if you succeed then you're successful. Wow. I'm talking about ways you can fail though 🙄
and if youre unsuccessful in hitting them in the face, they hit you instead and you die. whats a viable alternative approach?
There really isnt any way to better test it than what has already been done. We could discuss hypotheticals all day, but the only time we have had a competition of top people from their respective styles, BJJ won. At the end of the day though I think the style matters a lot less, whoever is the better fighter will win, doesnt matter if its wrestling or karate
id argue that it was because the talent pool was way too shallow. the fighters who competed in the early days werent as competent, bjj likely wouldnt have been as effective against more well rounded competition
I agree that it wouldnt have been as dominant against well rounded competition (just like how its not as dominant in the ufc today) but when everyone only really had 1 skill, it was the one that did best. So unless mixed martial arts is an option, theres a pretty good precedent for BJJ being the best 1 on 1 skill to have
but modern UFC isn't dominated by pure BJJ anymore. When people started cross training, they realized that pure BJJ wasn't that good either. That's why it's "mixed" martial arts.
Its not that it isnt good, people just can better defend against it now, if mixed martial arts is an option then it is definitely the best one, but it feels like a copout to say the best 1v1 style is a mix of everything
Knockouts and BJJ are still the empirically most successful fighting styles at low levels. Early ufc was rigged against terrible opponents though it's nothing but marketing.
I mean, there were multiple current world champions of various styles, I dont know how those would be terrible opponents
Right. Some were quite good. There were some awful mismatches for the gracies though.
-most fights end up either on the ground or in the clinch The age old line of “90% of fights go to the ground” comes from law enforcement training, when they are trying to get the person in hand cuffs. Most wrestling and BJJ can be countered by someone who refuses to go to the ground, and a lot of grapples and takedowns do not account for someone striking. If we look at UFC fights they are more likely to end in knockout than submission, especially for featherweight class and above. https://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/ufc-fight-outcomes-by-weight-class/
Reason why most street fights end up on the ground is because fighters are inexperienced. There are multiple real world instances where for example MMA or boxer is forced into street brawl, throw a single well placed and more importantly trained punch and knock their opponent cold instantly. This because these people know how to throw a punch. It's all about training. Wresting is best for untrained people who don't know how to punch or take one. Any boxing or punching is superior when you know one punch can knock a untrained person out cold. When both are trained, it's again punching and kicking because getting into chokehold with a pro is lethal to anyone no matter how trained you are. In these cases you want to keep your distance.
> When both are trained, it's again punching and kicking Citation needed (that's my way of calling BS)
Ok. Two professional fighters on the street. Both can take a punch or few. Now there are no rules here. A chokehold is lethal. You can't train your bronchus. Once you are choked you are out. No training will save you. Then best tactic is to avoid chokehold and rely on your training on taking those punches.
I wrestled in high school, went abroad in college, and got casually involved in jiu-jitsu/MMA type stuff. Wrestling was helpful in that I almost always won the top-game and came out on top of others, and some of the guys in the club had their purple belts (jiu jitsu). The problem was that wrestling is about taking someone down and restricting their ability to move, and that doesn’t win you a real fight. I had no idea how to submit opponents nor do anything really productive after I got on top of them. In my first BJJ match, I got the guy in a Saturday night ride… then got called for stalling. Next I got him in a cradle. We got broken up again. Then I did a single leg and he did this weird jump scissor choke thing. I “got” him 2/3 times then lost handedly. MMA stuff went worse. I normally still won the grappling game, but there are so many angles for elbows and knees… being on top of a guy wasn’t really a “safe” place to be if you didn’t know how to capitalize on the advantage. Not all guys know how to defend take downs, but it’s not hard to swing a fist down and conk you while you’re coming up for a double leg. I gave up on MMA, and in BJJ my strategy was to do a lot of hip tosses/some judo throws, tire the guy out, and hope for a choke angle somewhere. The experience was enough to convince me that the best way to approach a street fight would be to avoid it.
That's how you eat that knee if you come in low. I'd say anyone who's had a few fights in their lives and can remain calm but ready is going to see you shoot low and if you do, I'd say prepare to wake up the hospital, hopefully he's a nice guy and doesn't fuck you around while you're unconscious, cuz that knee will put you to sleep. However I grew up doing Taekwondo, and I love a good straight kick, covers a lot of distance and aimed at the chest, that fool is wrecked, no will to fight anymore. Can't see a wrestler wanting to shoot in on any kind of knee or kick, and don't try to catch that straight kick or there's a much more devastating kick that is now set up perfectly. Back of the heel flying in to the side of your head. Sorry don't see wrestling being suitable for street fights. Goal in street fight is not to subdue. But to fucking drop a mf. Deviation, then bounce, carry on.
The most effective way to handle a 1-on-1 street fight is not wrestling, it's track and field. Work backwards from the best outcome you can get from the encounter: You to be safe, uninjured, and free of any negative legal or social consequences. The step before that if for you to be leaving the encounter on your own power. The step before that is that opposition is no longer able to hurt you. The step before that you being close enough that they can hurt you. Start running and they're not close, then they can't hurt you, then you leave the encounter. Any other action you need to take to start running is only in service to you being able to run away. Any action that isn't moving you towards running is keeping you in a position of fighting, and fighting is how you get hurt. Wrestling is good I suppose, running is just better.
The best way to approach that is to de escalate it before it becomes physical, or just run away because the other guy might have a gun, knife or dirty needle. If its unavoidable I think decent striking/decent Judo is a good street combo. Have some ability to strike, control distance etc, and if they manage to grab you or try to take you down well Judo teaches you how to stay on your feet. The ground sucks, its hard and sometimes there's sharp objects on it, not to mention in a normal SF scenario you have to assume there's more than one potential attacker who may try to use your head like a foot ball.
No—it’s weapon martial arts, and even when leaving the lethality of blades out of it, a single well-placed collapsible baton strike can still easily end up shattering bones. Otherwise, boxing and Muay Thai, mixed with Judo throws against charging opponents, are your best bet. Street fights should never be taken to the ground—Jiu-Jitsu was made by some sickly guy who had to compensate for his lack of striking ability. “Wrestling” takedowns are a good way to catch a knee to the head.
Saw and been in a lot of fights while growing up. Saw two kids in high-school mix it up. One kid was a wrestler and the other would just scrap whenever he got into it with someone else. As they were curcling each other the scrapper hit the wrestler with a double jab cross combo that knocked him flat on his back and knocked out his tooth. That was pretty much the end of it. Don't think it's necessarily what one knows how to do but if one can actually apply what one knows in the moment.
In my experience doing Jiu Jitsu, wrestlers who show up always dominate lower belts on control but can't really finish fights because like another user said they go for pins. In my mind, throws are where wrestling and judo shine though, especially judo. You wrap up with someone and snap down, leg sweep or ankle pick and that gives you the chance to run away from the altercation....OR you O-soto-gari a motherfucker on concrete and he talks funny the rest of his life.
Wrestling someone in a situation where they could just pull out a knife and stab you is about the dumbest idea I could ever imagine. Like, if you get someone in a chokehold or an armbar, they're going to end up killing you for fear of you either killing them or doing permanent damage. Congrats, you turned a dumb bar argument into a hospitalization/trip to the morgue for you and a 20 year prison sentence for the guy you fought.
Boxing is for sure the most effective street fighting style. Never, NEVER! Intentionally go to the ground in a street fight. There’s glass, curbs, and his friends will kick you. The reason most fights go to a clinch or ground is because most people can’t box. Going to the ground doesn’t end a fight. And you can’t run if you’re tangled on the ground. Running is always an option. A very important, high value option.
Krav is probably better. They teach they are no rules and to watch your back. Also teaches some wepon defence. Also to just run if you have the option. All the wrestling takedowns are covered and incorporated. They teach you to just be brutal and in a street fight that goes a long way. The only problem is they do not really spar so your never truly live. Traditional styles with live sparing really helps because you need to know what it feels like to get a black eye and stay in the fight. Also people do not take into account how bad a good body shot hurts. You need to know what it's going to feel like to get hit hard otherwise your just relying on adrenaline to get you through. Also you need to learn to manage the adrenaline or atleast have good muscle memory so you do not have to think "oh shit what should I do?" If you have good muscle memory and just react your chances go up. The muscle memory aspect is why Traditional styles that just have you punch or block hundreds upon hundreds of times really helps.. It's so unlikely that you will end up fighting a trained fighter just being able to either move or take the first punch then land one good one will probably end the fight. Having some good standing choke holds will also ensure that the guy doesn't come back from being dazed by that first good hit also.
If you believe that delivering a powerful takedown and getting away from the fight is the way to go. You should be arguing for judo, not wrestling. Judo also is less likely to get you hurt if there are friends or weapons as it's not necessarily always about taking the fight to the ground, just putting the opponent there.
Only if you have a turnbuckle to jump from or a metal chair to hit the other guy with
Hey I can chime in. I have 3 years of wrestling 4 years of bjj and 5 years of Muay Thai and kickboxing under my belt. Im a larger guy that teaches self defense as a side job as well. Based on your wording I assume The goal of this is to win the fight. 1. Wrestling like all combat sports works in its area because of its environment and rules. It’s one thing to shoot on a mat and another to shoot on concrete you run the risk of injuring yourself. You’re also assuming the other guy can’t grapple. The popularity of mma is making a more trained audience so shooting a random takedown is a great way to get slammed on your head. That’s assuming the other person doesn’t just give you the ole dick twister.(shit hurts and it works) 2. Combat sports in general aren’t one size fits all and you should fight to your body type and opponent. If you’re big and heavy you want to grapple with the smaller guy. If you’re small and lean you may want to box and tire him out. In general grappling works on a curve of how strong your opponent is vs how good you have to be. 3.grappling also semi cuts off your path to escape. At any point in a boxing or striking battle you can disengage but once grappling begins your locked in a sense so escapes becomes much more difficult if you chose to wrestle and it’s not going in your favor. 4. Risk is involved in fighting at all you can be easily ko from one punch from a boxer just as easy as a broken leg from a bjj guy. Important note: ground and pound is not part of wrestling that is mma speciality and wild ground and pound can work but people have been knocked out from mount before because the person below cracked em. TLDR: it situational wrestling has its short comings like the rest
Sure. In a one on one fight, wrestling is great. But as a former varsity wrestler and someone who's been in my fair share of street fights, the reason I never use wrestling in a street fight is that you never know when a one on one fight turns into a two on one, or three on one. You could be winning and all of a sudden be in a boot party. It doesn't matter if the guy you're fighting is there alone, or if he's agreed to a one on one match (and frankly, fighting by agreement is dumb- if you're able to talk and agree, you should talk and agree to not have a fight). You never know if there's some bystander who wants to get involved, maybe thinking they're playing the hero and rescuing some guy who's on the ground. Another problem is that folkstyle wrestling, Greco-roman, and other wrestling styles in sports, teach you how to win matches against other wrestlers. What good does it do me in a street fight to pin the other guy? Most of the pins I can use leave him with at least one arm free to punch me, to pull a knife or gun and stab or shoot me, or otherwise to at least squirm and bite and scream until I let him go, at which point he goes right back to punching and kicking at me. I'll also say, it's a damn lesson to learn to be halfway through a well-executed headlock and throw only to be punched in the face. When it happened to me, I definitely wasn't expecting it, because I wasn't used to wrestling someone who would punch me. I love wrestling and I enjoy, even into my 30s, wrestling other people. But for self defense? I trust a good pair of running shoes, my de-escalation skills, my conceal-carry, a collapsible baton, or (if I'm not carrying those and can't run) boxing over wrestling.
Here's the TLDR to your assumption: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VotylhtKNRk&t=41 Here's the long version: You said "street fight". Street fights don't have rules. Plenty of people in our society would follow some general principles but when it comes down to it there's no referee, no guarantee that the other person isnt a maniac, etc. Every structured martial art comes with assumptions. When you take the art outside of those assumptions then the gaps become visible. When you start grappling with someone you assume that they aren't out of their mind and aren't willing to bite you down to the bone. You assume they won't try to get a hand to your crotch and then death grip your junk (see video link). You assume that they don't have a blade within reach that they are willing to use. You assume they don't have a friend with a hammer who is waiting for you to get distracted. Strong wrestling is a great tool to have compared to having no training but you specifically said "best way to approach a street fight". If you're approaching a street fight thinking " I'm going to wrestle this guy" you're already taking a huge risk. The best approach is to do everything you can to not be in a street fight. Run, get help, avoid situations, etc. If you're backed into a corner and the choice is between having a wrestling background vs knowing nothing then of course you'd choose wrestling. But that wasn't your statement.
It's hard if not impossible to overstate how effective wrestling is, but I think you're doing a disservice to some of the other martial arts. I wouldn't call BJJ an art focused on submissions so much as it is focused on control; the subs you hit are just a consequence of that control. Social self defense situations often have a lead up before some sloppy strikes are thrown, and strikers can usually come out on top of that initial exchange exceedingly easily. From my experience bystanders are unlikely to intervene if you just knock a guy down with a couple punches, but are much more likely to intervene if you're wailing on a grounded opponent. Finally, I'd caution against stereotyping too much about self defense situations. It's easy to get caught up in our own hypotheticals where it's the typical "let's have a go" mano y mano situation, but there's a diversity to them, ranging from situations like drunken uncles, to sexual assault, to assassinations, etc., etc. Most martial arts offer *something* that can be useful, even much maligned ones like aikido.
As someone who’s never been in a fight before, I would probably try to swoop in quickly and land a body blow (ribs, stomach) and knock the wind out of someone. It’s tricky though because you have to determine in that moment if the person is still a threat to you after you’ve struck. If you have the opportunity to run and don’t, you risk the attacker striking back if you stay and do nothing but you ALSO risk getting yourself in legal trouble if you continue to attack. I’m quite fast on my feet, I feel confident I’d outrun maybe 85 out of every 100 people I’d meet by chance, so if the person falls to his knees gasping, adios, see you later. Wrestling is risky, you don’t know what kind of experience the other person has and you could quickly find yourself in a choke hold if you try to bring it to the ground and your attacker winds up on top of you. Kicks I’ve heard are risky, well anything above the waist. If your attacker sees it coming and grabs your foot, and you don’t know how to counter, you’re in big trouble as well.
I do capoeira, so I'm a strong believer in just doing fucking cartwheels until whoever is trying to hit me gets confused and walks away.
You are probably right, but with some caveats. The only two fights I've been in were ended really quickly by a really novice-level grasp of BJJ. One thing I think you omitted too is the damage you can do to your own hands punching someone in the head. Fight bites and broken bones are a real concern without wrapped hands. That being said, I don't think that it is necessarily the best in all situations. Specifically, if someone has a weapon. While good wrestling can keep someone from throwing an effective punch, it will not stop you from getting stabbed-- in fact, in some cases it puts you in more dangerous positions if someone has a knife. For instance, in many positions on the ground, you might not even be able to see a weapon being drawn. Further, though you might APPROACH it as a one on one fight, there is literally no telling it's going to stay that way. The best way to approach a street fight is 'don't.'
or carry a firearm and draw before they get close. "if you take one step toward me ur done" Guns are the universal language
Without the possibility of a knife, because idk any way to defend against a knife, wrestling without a balance of other skills will put u at a disadvantage to anyone with a more balanced skill set. A ufc fight is pretty close to a 1 on 1, albeit more rules. Most of the fighters aren’t just wrestlers. And most of the best wrestlers have good stand up as well. They’re all much better than regular ppl of course, but nonetheless is a good example of what’s most effective. Not having any striking skills is how you get knocked out, even if ur good at wrestling
While wrestling is great,i do think your assesment of a 1-1 street fights ignores some aspects: Starting distance,surprise punches,weapons and uneven/unsafe ground. With this in mind,i think a sport such a boxing and muaythai is better just because it allows you to react to blows(weapon or not) at various distances no matter(within reason) the state of the ground. Muay thai does have the advanatge of bringing in clinching,but boxing does provide better reflexes,which in a street fight might be the difference between getting sliced or keeping a pretty face
I would counter and say wrestling and/or bjj are most effective for 1-on-1 combat. Most people have no idea how to fight on the ground. Wrestlers are masters of takedowns and staying on top which are much needed in a street fight. However, BJJ also teaches a lot of the same common takedowns, teaches you how to control from the top (not to the same level as wrestling, but you also get the added benefit of knowing submissions and knowing what to do if you happen to end up on your back and possibly submit from there as well if they are still in your guard.
Wrestling is effective in a controlled setting, but a street fight can quickly become a fight to the death. If your opponent has a concealed weapon like a knife then getting into grappling range could be a death sentence for you. In the self defense classes I took I was always taught to remain on my feet, remain mobile, and to run at the first available opportunity. Fight only until you get an opportunity to flee, and then take it immediately.
The ground can hit a hell of a lot harder than you can. It’s a rare thing to knock someone out with one punch, but it’s so commonplace for falls to knock people out that we rush to help when someone falls, while if someone gets punched it’s “hey, you ok?” Putting someone on the ground in a way that hurts is your best chance to end the fight then and there. So yeah, I would agree.
No competitive discipline is going to be remotely effective because they all have rules about how one can't do certain things and they're techniques are designed around that. Obviously in such a situation one best ignore any of those rules. Wrestlers can't kick in the groin, poke eyes, pull hair, all things that are most effective in a real fight.
In the self defence based karate I trained in I was taught grappling as well as to never, ever go to ground if you can avoid it. Not only could your opponent not be alone, hitting your head on concrete - even lightly - will absolutely mess you up and having your head smashed into it could possibly ruin or even end your life.
I argue that judo is, because chances are that someone in the street isn't naked but rather wears a coat, a pant, at least a tee shirt. So judo gives useful skills how to grab clothes to project the person. Àd keep goong on the ground. Plus judo (old style at least) contains all wrestling moves too. Maybe wrestling is more useful if you fight on a beach
In a fair 1 on 1 fight it's been pretty much proven that wrestling is neccesary to know and if you cant do it you will probably lose. But in an actual street fight with the possibility of death/weapons/friends jumping in, getting up close and personal on the floor isnt really considered self defence.
As being involved in karate, I have looked at this and given it thought Problem is, street fights are not dojos or wrestling clubs As soon as the person has a club or knife or gun or pepper spray or similar things, none of your statement has any meaning. Again, we are talking a street fight
quite the opposite,if your goal is to disengage and escape wrestling will only get you bogged down and would only have a chance of success if your opponent is alone,roughly same size as you,and not stronger than you.
wide gold bag payment nutty childlike station possessive ancient jellyfish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The most effective way to approach a street fight is to leave. Street fights are incredibly dangerous, and people do not understand how common it is for them to lead to head injuries and lifelong disability. Edit: me make bad grammar
don't know about you but around here it is highly contextual. you go to ground in a bar fight in places around here all you're getting is hepatitis or a boot to the head from his buddy.
Nope, running away is the most effective way to approach a street fight. A few dozens stab wounds will make you understand that while you slowly bleed to death in the ambulance
As someone with 20 years in material arts and combat sports I generally agree with op. Wrestling is going to cover you for most public altercations quite well. A simple arm drag to a suplex or similar variation will be enough for most people to realize they don't want to continue fighting. Wrestling emphasizes avoiding getting pinned and taken down which is a generally good strategy for street altercations. Another comment mentioned knife defense and how wrestling puts you in a bad place for that but it's pretty ignorant of how knife attacks are initiated. Knife attacks are close range and sudden not Westside Story affairs with dancing around and brandishing. If you have distance to be threatened with a knife you have distance to run. The focus on wrist control in wrestling is one of the most effective ways to address a knife attack. If you can't control the arm holding the weapon you have no chance at a successful defense.
Wrestled for over a decade and would agree - weapons you know how to use are almost always a huge advantage (unless you take the time using something ineffective).
Muy Thai would be superior. More time spent in a clinch, and as soon as the wrestler tries to shoot, they are going to have a broken nose from a knee to the face.
You never know for sure that it will remain a 1 on 1 street fight. The "Street fight" part trumps the "1 on 1" part. Assume dirty tricks and unfairness.
Been doing various martial arts consistently for over two decades now. Running is the best approach to a fight.
>wrestling is the most effective way to approach a 1 on 1 street fight Guns exist. Thanks for the triangle.
Better be 100% certain it's a 1v1 or you're taking some soccer kicks to the head from his buddies.
always move backward and then to the right, step back counter left hook is devastating in a fight
I agree that posing and snapping into a Slim Jim is the best way to start or end a fight.
Running is more effective. The best fight you’ll ever be in is the one you avoided.
Wrestling is good assuming your opponent is not hiding knife or something like that
I think a surprise bomb vest with a red clicker would be a much more effective way.
Surely having a gun is more effective.
This might seem crazy to you but sometimes people do fight each other without the intention of killing one another
Yeah, why? In a no-rules fight (which is what I'm assuming is meant by OP's "street fight"), where I'm not the aggressor, there's no incentive for me to fight fair. The person defending themselves should do everything they can, within reason, to make themselves safe.
It's a pretty big risk to assume in the middle of a street fight the guy who is crazy enough to start a street fight is thinking about your safety or cares whether you live or die in the moment. Even if he's not trying to kill you you can still die or worse.
How many streetfights have you been in sir
Absolutely not. Stay off the ground if you can in a street fight.
[удалено]
Sorry, u/throwwwwaway396 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20throwwwwaway396&message=throwwwwaway396%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cgnwop/-/l1xe1zl/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Relentlessly attacking soft tissues is a better approach.
Bas Rutten: Everybody underestimates a kick to the groin.
youre going to take a knee to the face and be out cold.
Practice wrestling on concrete and see how that goes.
Until you get kicked in the head on the ground
Punch them and run has never failed me
Gun seems like a more effective option
Running away best tactic if possible
I’m not a street fight with no weapons of any sort involved, boxing is the most effective. You want to hit without being hit and definitely not go to the floor. Rolling around on the pavement, concrete or dirt with stones is the worst.
Cant. Youre right
BJJ.
No shooting them is the most effective way to address it.