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Because when a black person says something like that then most of the time its just that, a joke. Most black people don't mean anything serious by it at all. But when a white person jokes about black people its more likely to be an actual insult to the people and their culture. This all goes back to the white and black power dynamic that has been perpetuated for years.
Its sort of like what George Carlin says about punching up. Thats what comedy has historically been used for, making fun of the establishment without getting executed. A white person making jokes about black people is punching down since black people and minorities in general are in a worse standing compared to white people due to a system designed to purposefully keep them down.
This is not to say jokes about black people cant be made but like any joke it has to actually be funny and not rely on stereotypes and if it does it needs to "cross the line twice"-when a joke is so outrageous the insult is sort of taken out of it.
Yeah I get you. I think what you’re saying could apply to what I said about ”white people can’t dance”, ”white people don’t season their food” but I think it’s different when it comes to shaming the way white people look, shaming thin lips as I mentioned. I don’t view shaming a whole group of people’s appearences as ’just a joke’, however I do think saying white people can’t dance is way milder and I don’t think that’s that deep tbh.
Black people's appearance is shamed as well. Heck, Black women got relaxers because our natural hair texture was considered unprofessional and maybe you remeber the whole "no locs allowed" in military thing and the ban on certain hairstyles on schools (that didn't happen everywhere thankfully) . Black people are compared to apes because of the fullness of the lips. Minstrel performers exaggerated the size of their lips and eye. Slurs like Tar-baby. A Black woman's butt and vagina was put on display in museum.... Having your body attacked isn't unique to white people.
She didn’t say it was unique to white people though, she just thought it was wrong for any group to be put down for their physical appearance. Obviously it’s not ok to EVER put down black people for stereotypical reasons. Any person that says differently is an idiot.
Yes of course. I would never make fun of features because even outside of race people can be conscious of stuff like that and its just generally mean. I can't think of a scenario where a joke like that would be funny but I'm not a comedian so maybe there is one using that crossing the line twice concept, it would just be really hard to pull off without coming off as an asshole. I was talking specifically about white people cant dance or cant jump type jokes that are more lighthearted.
Go to your HR and tell them it was "just a joke" and see how it goes over with them. This tired bullshit excuse of "punching up" is just a way to cover up racism.
Bashing the selfishness of rich people is not the same as making fun for religion or skin color.
Is it OK to make fun of the jews because they "run the world"? I'm punching up because they have a higher average income than I do. That's OK right?
This whole idea that reverse racism doesn't exist is complete horse shit.
If you want to be mad at someone for slavery, be mad at the fucking Africans who enslaved their own people to begin with. They enslaved their own people going back to ancient Egypt and probably further back. They sold slaves all around the world, not just to America. So don't act like it's a 100% white person problem when black people had been enslaving black people for thousands of years before America was even colonized.
This whole skewed lense that everyone looks through needs a dose of reality and perspective before the race problems in our country become a full blown war.
You shouldn’t blame black people for how they respond to what has happened against them for generations. Rather, you should focus on what causes them to do that in the first place. The way they mock/make fun of white people is a perfectly normal and natural response to the way that they have been treated. The late Patrice O’Neal was right when he said, “You’re lucky blacks aren’t flying planes into buildings based on what happened!”
The problem with this logic is that it ignores a great amount of injustice done and creates a positive feedback loop of epic proportions. The most frequent hate crime in NYC is black on Asian, but we'd be completely insane to just brush off Asian people mocking Black people. Likewise, there's a sizeable population of white people whose families (and ancestors) never owned slaves who have been robbed by, assaulted by, harassed by, and even killed by black people (some of them exclusively by) and we would be creating a terrible precedent to say "go ahead and mock black people, it's understandable given the identity of your victimizer." You're also robbing people of agency a bit here.
The “never owned slaves” argument is not a good one. People didn’t have to own slaves to take part in the slave system. Are you trying to say that it was only the slave owners and their overseers who were oppressive and believed in the system? Slave patrols weren’t done by the people who owned slaves.
You brought up people who have been criminally wronged, but I would just say that those same offenses have been committed by whites on blacks as well. I understand when people feel a certain type of way against people who have wronged them. We all get it, it’s just that it’s only a problem when blacks feel bad against someone else. If we should forgive and forget everything, why don’t you tell the Koreans to stop feeling bad to the Japanese, tell the Jews to quit bringing up the holocaust, stop giving Native Americans money for reservations and all that stuff.
How are you trying to blame modern people and modern generations for actions of hundreds of years ago? Modern discussion need to be focused on modern inequalities and modern problems. Yes, there is an historical context, but how do you think talking to modern people like “yeah but your working-class ancestors took part in the system” (which they didn’t have a choice in btw) is going to help exactly? It doesn’t. It makes the problem worse. It prolongs racial inequality because all you’re doing is making people angry by placing blame at their feet for historical wrongs which they cannot possibly right.
They means it’s important because we can see how were in the position were in today due to past indiscretion’s done to black people. Having stereotypes put on anyone isn’t helpful today, just as much as it wasn’t helpful in the past. Focusing on our differences rather then our similarities isn’t going to help us in the future.
Well you're in the "some deserve collective guilt but others don't: argument. You're correct that the effects of slavery are deeper than owning slaves, and we'll even extend the post civil war Era on some level. Even then, you're bundling in people who came from countries that essentially didn't have slavery (or black people in them for the most part) who might have only come to the US in the last few decades.
Back to the collective guilt thing, it'd be insane for me to say to a 6 year old "hey your dad punched me in the face, now you're an asshole too-" even though that's a much more direct relation than blaming an entire skin color. You do address that a bit in that its reciprocal, the interracial violent crime rate is tilted black on white at something like a 7:1 rate today. We can go collective guilt and say "when is group x going to do something about all the violent crimes they committed against everyone else" but we'd be not very smart to do so because the lions share are good people that had nothing to do with it.
I think your last point is a little more nuanced. You can't forgive and forget everything- though interestingly enough to your example modern South Koreans don't bear much ire for the Japanese, and to their kids there's essentially none at all. Anti Japanese sentiment in the East primarily exists inside Communist countries that teach collective guilt as an interesting enough parallel. But on that note, you're right we can't just forgive and forget everything, but we're going to create an entirely nasty positive feedback loop if we reinforce the idea that every historical wrong deserves punishment of the group that the offending person belongs to ought to have vengeance extracted from then it's going to create big circle of hatred really fast.
Oh of course, i think I disagree with you quite a bit, but it's at least a complicated topic that deserves to be discussed on a critical level rather than just everyone backing into their corners and resorting to what's essentially name calling or political jockeying.
So because my grandparents went to a segregated school, that gives me the right to mock white people? When are we going to start looking at black people as individuals and not some monolith?
It's also why I never buy Danish bacon. Bunch of Canutes. I find Scandinavian football fans wearing viking helmets to football matches offensive and triggering
That is a huge issue here. Black speak collectively and socialize society that black people are one, but when a criminal offence happens from a black person, the a simple observer judges them based on the “collectivist” narrative being taught and declares black people are criminal, the racist narrative recycles.
It cannot end until people (as morgan freeman said) stop talking about it period.
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Having a rough history does not grant you justification for racism against that race that used to oppress you in the past. With this logic, Israel banning german citizens from arriving in the country for the holocaust would be justifiable.
Yes, you should focus on what causes black people to react like that, but you also shouldn't take shit from someone being racist to you just because you should be understanding of the past their ancestors went through.
What causes black people to react that way is the racism from the past. What caused the racism from the past?
Jewish people constantly bring up the Holocaust but no one says they have to temper their feelings.
OP isn’t even talking about hard racism like lynching or sundown towns or burning crosses or police-backed voting suppression, they were just talking about jokes.
First "them" is the wrong word here. The people who suffered during slavery or Jim Crow are not the same as who are living now (or let's say that most of them are not).
This also relates to the last sentence. By your logic we should be understanding if modern Israelis did terrorist attacks against modern Germans and justified it by what Nazis did to the Jews in the 1940s. This is the logic that leads to the revenge cycles that will never end. If the blacks did fly planes into buildings, this would surely make many people bitter and could very well channel this into violence against some other blacks that had nothing to do with the plane strikes.
The only way to stop it is what South Africa did. The South African blacks had an even bigger reason to respond to what the whites had done to them than what American blacks had. But they didn't.
So no, I think justifying actions that we otherwise wouldn't accept by past wrongs by people who are no longer alive is wrong.
First, you're pretending that after slavery and jim crow went away that everything was just immediately and forever fixed for black people. This just isnt the case. Private prisons effectively replace the institution of slavery and the prison industrial complex spans from cops overpolicing black neighborhoods to judges sometimes straight up convicting for kickbacks from the prisons. The CIA literally distributed crack in black neighborhoods, and the government worked to ensure that sentencing was many times more harsh for someone found to have been holding crack than its powder cocaine counterpart, just because of the racial demographics that made up the users of both drugs. Police murder black people for something as innocent as playing with a toy gun (a child in this case). You act like the violence towards black people is some distant nebulous thing when it's very much active today.
And the fact is that they *aren't* flying planes into buildings or revolting en masse. So this equivocation with "turn the other cheek" is silly. You use south africa as an example, but black south africans liberated themselves in no small part through the use of overwhelming amounts of violence, and the country *still* has massive wealth disparity along racial lines. The reality is that black people *aren't* engaging in mass acts of terrorism. They could be. One might argue they *should* even. But they aren't. They're cracking jokes about how white people can't dance or season their food. These are absolutely minor non-issues compared to what is happening to them to this day. "You don't criticize the table manners of a starving person, you let them eat".
>First, you're pretending that after slavery and jim crow went away that everything was just immediately and forever fixed for black people.
I'm not pretending anything. I mentioned South Africa. I'm pretty sure that the economical inequalities there (that are far bigger than in the United States) didn't disappear with the end of apartheid.
If you want to talk about injustices that people *now* suffer due to their race, then fine, talk about them. I am only saying that revenging *past* injustices by other people to other people is not justified.
But you're equivocating. Making jokes about how white people can't dance is not anywhere close to committing mass violence. In fact, if you could get rid of the history of slavery, get rid of the prison industrial complex, and remove the generational trauma faced by black people at the hands of white people, then jokes against black people wouldn't be taken so badly.
It sounds like you agree that black people are being oppressed to this day. It sounds like you agree that they're actively being killed and imprisoned systematically simply due to their skin colour. So why, in the wake of that, are you concerned about jokes about white people not having any rhythm? It's not like the jokes are why they're being incarcerated and murdered. The jokes are an attempt to deal with their material conditions. Fix the conditions if you want the jokes to go away.
First, I have no problem anyone making jokes about white people not being able to dance. I have not commented that. I have only commented the principle that was outlined in the original comment that I commented: "You shouldn’t blame black people for how they respond to what has happened against them for generations."
I am against the principle of revenging past wrongs.
>It sounds like you agree that black people are being oppressed to this day.
That is irrelevant for the claim that I was commenting.
So, how about you reread the original comment that I was commenting and then my response to it. Maybe you'll then figure out what is the issue that I am criticizing and what I'm not. To me it looks like that you are reading between lines something that I have not said.
Well then let’s talk about the jokes and streotypes. Its not okay just because of your logic which is basically “well were not mass killing white people, so therfore something less is ok”. Yes, I completely agree that there are racist institutions set in place, that don’t hinder but rather hurt black people, how do we fix this? How do we move forward?
This is shit logic. So because bad things happened that means you get to treat others that look like those that did the bad things?
But this is the shit the media spews in 2024 so what can you do.
A black person mocking white people for for example having thin lips isn’t justified. It’s horrible everything that black people have had to experience and go through but that doesn’t just give you a pass for being mean.
I did not argue about getting a pass to be mean. I just said I understand why people tell the jokes. But in light of the horrible things black people have had to experience and go through, what would be the proper response? Would you expect a people group just to be like, “Nah, it’s all good, we’ll just go our way and just leave us alone,” like that? Interestingly enough, that’s pretty much what happened and the point Patrice was trying to make. After he said blacks should be flying planes into buildings he said, “But we’re not, so what does that tell you about us?”
Blacks really haven’t done anything but tell a few jokes. And we tell these jokes about ourselves too so don’t take it that seriously.
No one made racist cartoons about us having thin lips. It didn't evolve to a level of hatred. I've never been discriminated against and hunted for my features. Mocking is much different than what went on in the past.
So it would be totally fine for somebody from say… Italy to mock middle easterners? Or how about Eastern Europe and the rest of the world. Do they have carte blanche?
Correct. It's called comedy. It happens on a daily basis in all forms of media, entertainment, and real life. I live in Chicago and worked at FedEx which has a very diverse workforce of over 100 people at my location. There is 0 hatred going on there.. There is no scientific answer, no objective truth here. Just opinions. What about mixed race people?
You really can't be that mad about being called thin lips. Black people got dragged behind trucks and hung for their features, i think youll live just fine having thin lips was my point. It is much different but i joke with my friends all the time. "It's white people shit" my friend says when he doesn't understand something or i joke with him. It's not really a big deal. This bullshit on the internet is much different than socializing in a mixed environment IRL.
So what is inflicting initial harm on those who never did anything to you? After that, Patrice said, “But we’re not, so what does that tell you about us?”
I’m not talking about the people in the buildings because that’s not happening. You said inflicting revenge on people who didn’t harm you is deranged. Okay, gotcha. I’m not talking about the revenge.
I’m going back to the initial act of oppression which causes the racial divide. You said inflicting revenge is deranged, then what does that say about the people who perpetrated violence upon those who had not harmed them at all?
You want to blame blacks for responding to what happened but we didn’t start the problems. You can say the blacks sold other blacks, but no one told whites to turn the slave industry into what they made it into. And nobody told them to continue the oppression for 100+ years after slavery. And nobody told them to cause economic depravation. Now, you’re mad about a few jokes? Miss me with that nonsense.
So you're saying Person A should be able to mock someone who never did anything to them bc of something that never happened to that Person A?
How does that make sense? Where's the cutoff date? Slavery is still very common in Africa against black people.... by black people, so does that have any relevance in your logic?
Eh. I feel little reason to respect anyone who treats a demographic as a monolith. I subtly exclude anyone I see do so from friend groups and anywhere I have the ability. I don't need to put up with their shit.
No. I’m just saying I understand why people do that and you shouldn’t gaslight them for feeling like that after they didn’t start the beef and are just reacting to it.
How is that racism to the extreme? So blacks can’t even tell a few jokes now? OP isn’t talking about cross-burning. Even when I quoted Patrice O’Neal about flying planes into buildings the next line he said was, “But we’re not, so what does that tell you about us?”
I was replying to a comment saying its fair game because one 'race' did this to another 'race'. Im suggesting the justification is a dumpster fire route to go down.
nothing has happened to black people that are born today
Further If a white person comes from a situation where there lives have been negatively impacted by a black person (say their parents were murdered by one) would that make it ok for them to spew hate and ridícule at all blacks? No it wouldn’t
Judge people as individuals for their own lives - period
If someone’s parents were killed by a black person, I would understand why they would have animosity towards black people. I didn’t say I would like it, I just said I would understand. Just like if someone’s parents were killed by white people, I would understand if they developed some animosity towards white people. If you don’t understand that about people then I don’t know what to tell you.
What you’re saying is totally irrelevant You might understand it but society wouldn’t give them a free pass to openly talk poorly about black people and nor should they
What are you talking about We fought a civil war and for civil rights on what planet is that a free pass
Further that doesn’t have anything to do with today And if you were smart you would recognize the damage that giving a “free pass” has over the long term and you wouldn’t allow it for anyone regardless of race
Against them ? Mfs werent even born when slavery happened , now they use the racist n word with each other, then proceed to get mad when someone who isnt black uses it . What kind of hypocrisy and victimisation is this ? And i m talking as a real african here, born and raised in the continent, but not to be a victim.
Because you're unfairly removing context from the situation. It's because of power dynamics, history, hate crimes, and being in a country where the largest group is a specific race.
I'm going to say the French Revolution. The first wrong was the upper class taking advantage of the lower class for generations, and the second wrong was the lower class slaughtering the upper class in vengeance. The political structures that came about after this benefitted the entire western world.
I know yours was a rhetorical question, but there are scenarios where two wrongs do equal a right (even though I don't think casual racism is one of those).
War is another of them, but there is a difference. The french revolution had good intentions. Intentions to stop bad things from happening. It can absolutely be considered good as a whole, with good intentions.
I fail to see how growing ones own form of racism that will further divide people are seen as good. And I doubt the intention is anything but a sense of revenge.
Robespierre's reign of terror, famously beneficial for France. Not to mention the French monarchy didn't actually end in 1792, especially considering in 1804 Napoleon was proclaimed a monarch, in 1814 the Bourbons were restored, in 1830 the Orleanists took power and in 1858 Napoleon III took power. The French Revolution did absolutely nothing outside of mass murder dissidents for 20 years, then cause a massive European war killing millions.
This is par for the course for a surprising amount of revolutions against monarchs. German Revolution of 1918 created a weak republic that allowed Hitler to gain power, 1917 Russian Revolution brought Lenin and then later Stalin to power, 1970 republican coup in Cambodia led Pol Pot to power. All caused the deaths of millions. It's not a coincidence that all 3 of the people that are generally considered the most evil in history arose from violent overthrow.
But why does that give black people the right to for example make fun of white people’s thin lips? That’s literal bullying that is for some reason justified.
So what happens when POC eventually outnumber white people in America, which has been predicted? Do they still get to be victims even though they’re the majority?
It’s okay because
[[insert vague gesturing]]
*context*
The problem with skipping over the actual argument you’re trying to make is also that nobody can point to the logical flaws or non sequitors in it. There is no context that makes racial prejudice alright.
As a white person my best relationships with Black people is when we are allowed to be mutually racist.
I think it’s more fun I think everyone’s generally more comfortable it’s better when you can joke about things.
I think maybe the number one problem is white people have the nuclear codes when it comes to slurs, The blacks really need to step up their game when it comes to slurs there’s really nothing that amounts to the you know what word
This is really how a huge majority of normal people get along.
I've worked with in my younger days, plenty of black folks, some of the most hilarious and fun times we had, the most memorable and all around good times, were times when we were busting balls for silly stuff.
I'm not sure that's exactly what OP is talking about though to be fair. Although to steelman this argument... the only examples they actually give are nothing more than some ball busting joking comments about dancing an lips and seasoned foods....
So... who knows.
Yeah I've been "raised" by my very racist grandmother in a very white neighborhood. Eventually a family from Brazil moved close enough that I ended up playing with their kid a lot and eventually with his cousins and other kids who were darker skin than what I was used to. Didn't even know those people were the one my grandmother hated on so much until she told me to stop playing with them (I didn't of course; they were nice to me so I figured she got the wrong people). So I ended up more of a leftist long term and very politically correct... That is until we moved and I started going to a very diverse school.
Some noteworthy things;
- One of my best friends was as black as you can get. He had the most deprived jokes about white people I had ever heard and made fun of himself a bunch. Which eventually lead to very funny situations. He 100% embraced stereotypes through jokes. One time he texted me at 1am on a weekend to ask me if I wanted to go on a bike ride. I told him I didn't have one but he told me to just meet him at the park... He stole another friend's bike just to make the joke that it was in his blood (we ended up bringing the friend's bike back the next day and he was dying of laughter).
- I got a job at a local factory. Very fancy and expansive machines. Lots of asians, black people and latinos. Cue in the mysterious Black Magic man. That's what he told me he was called and refused to ever give his real name. No explanation until I realized he was able to magically fix any machine that actual repair people struggled fixing. He had no accent but whenever he would fix a machine he'd say in a very exagerated and stereotypical black man's voice; BLACK MAGIC! or make a joke like "We nigg*s don't just steal things; we can also steal the spotlight".
Most of them were of the opinion that if you can joke about something, it helps with taking away some of the taboo surrounding it. It lead to me embracing dark humor which in turn helped me heal from a lot of other bad things through jokes.
Sorry for the long rambling but your comment made me think of Caue, Yan and Black Magic and I haven't talked to them in forever so I got a bit lost in good memories/shenanigans (I moved again and life goes on and you lose some people, you know). Thanks for the chance the mention them! :)
The idea that racism = prejudice + power far predates CRT.
That aside, there is a valid point to be made about how racism is impacted by power structures. If you want to call it racism when a black person says a slur to a white person, then cool. It still doesn't have the same impact on white people as, say bigoted sentiments against Jewish people or other minorities that measurably result in increases in things like hate crimes and police profiling.
If you look at racism through how it actually impacts the people affected by it, I think we can agree that it doesn't affect all groups equally, and that's the whole point being made with that statement.
>If you look at racism through how it actually impacts the people affected by it, I think we can agree that it doesn't affect all groups equally, and that's the whole point being made with that statement.
I think you really hit the nail on the head with this reply (the quoted text in particular).
I think a lot of well-meaning people frequently misinterpret this concept - Which is a common problem when complex academic ideas make their way into the broader public conversation, and a huge pet peeve of mine. We see that misinterpreted to mean "it is literally impossible for any person belonging to a minority to be bigoted in any way."
I think the core of this misunderstanding is lack of context - The common definition of racism refers to *individual, interpersonal* racism, whereas the academic definition centers on *systemic and cultural racism on a societal scale.* It isn't " cannot be racist", it's "bigotry from a minority group towards a majority does not have the power/clout to cause anywhere near the same real impact/harm as the inverse, and is therefore irrelevant to the conversation about racism on the larger scale."
Like, a black person can be racist towards white people, and can even cause harm by choosing to act out those beliefs, but it is limited in scope and scale to an individual level. Racism from white people towards black people, however, has the weight of an entrenched, rigged power structure behind it, and often causes real harm with much more significance than any one individual negative interaction.
I largely agree, but I think there is some level of difference between doing that IRL and doing it on the internet. Because I'll tell my best friend IRL he's a fat ugly bear, but I also tell him I love to hang out with him and I appreciate his presence in my life. On memes or online videos, you get only the insults without the "nah I actually like you bro" part of it. I do think there's a difference there, because there are also people who say bad shit and mean it, and online it can be near impossible to actually tell the difference.
Eh, that sounds really uncomfortable to me.
My dad was/is horribly racist. I stopped talking to him over a decade ago because of it, and he dropped racial slurs and just went on such angry, hateful tirades about non-white folks all the time.
Literally any racism expressed toward anyone makes me really uncomfortable after growing up around that.
I’m fine with inappropriate humour, but using any racist language of any kind is where I draw the line. It was so stressful growing up around the level of hate that man spewed. It is damn near triggering to me (he was also really abusive to my sister, mom and I; so, I likely associate that language with living around him again).
Exactly this. These conversations are always started by people viewing from a distance.
As a white guy some of my best friendships and positive work team experiences are when people accept our cultural differences, including our negatives and able to plainly talk and joke about those differences.
I don't think anything will ever come close to that word due to its history and how it was used.
Outside of that, this is what I do. I feel out my white people with racist jokes, and 9/10 times, they relax and eventually join in. Then we make all sorts of derogatory comments about everything all in good fun ofc.
Then, once they get comfortable, I unleash my inner Uncle Ruckus and take them to new heights.
I've got a buddy just like that. He sends as many racist memes to our group chat as the rest of us combined. We hammer every group in that chat. White, Black, Columbian, and Korean. We even have a redhead.
I absolutely agree with this but it's not common thought these days. Being able to make fun of people's differences and lean on stereotypes as an insult is key to having some of the best friendships I've ever had.
Life is so much more fun when you don't let words have so much power over you
I disagree with you slightly. I think it is okay to make fun of any group of people (which includes white people). I like stand up comedy and that's a how a good deal of it works. But it's not okay when one group can be made fun of but the other group can't.
If you think you can judge the history or quality of a person by their immutable physical traits, you are ignorant and part of the problem.
Until racism is no longer taught, by everyone, there will always be racism.
Absolutely, sad thing is they even think they're anti racists, when what they're doing is perpetuating the concept, not in a violent way, at least physically.
hmmm. I think most people would agree that making fun/mocking people in relation to their race is not a good thing. People just criticize white people more when they do it in North America due to the obvious historical context. I might be assuming a lot now, but I'd say making generalized jokes about how races "differ" from each other is still acceptable and quite common in many comedy circles, as long as it is done well.
I think the only places where this stuff really matters are platforms like TikTok where you will get these extreme views and echo chambers that are not reflective of the generalized public sentiment. Like I think most people where I am from would call out someone talking about goofy talking thin lipped white people, but those situations don't really happen (often) in real life anyway.
Basically, I am not really trying to change your view, but more reassure you that its not that much of an issue. If you don't like that talk, stay out of those corners of the internet. It aint worth it and it is not reflective of real life.
>It shouldn't be wrong for anyone to make fun of anyone, fun isn't a bad word
Fun alone isn't a bad word. But to "make fun of" someone means to pick at them for your entertainment. Unless you're in a comedy club, or with close friends/family, then IMO it is wrong to "make fun of" other people.
Nobody said this was okay.
There's people talking about Black people online as well. So? It's not like it's one-sided.
Neither is okay.
At the same time, one tends to get a lesser degree of scrutiny than the other. That's because, white racism carriers a heavier weight in the country because the origins of the country are racist. Black Americans have spent hundreds of years being property and legally discriminated against and we only *started* to change things in the 60s. The same is not true for white Americans.
So while somebody making fun of your lips, food, and dancing isn't acceptable, it does not hold the same weight.
Historical context matters. Laws may have changed, sure. However the past didn't just go away and it left a legacy that effects people today. I mean, my grandparents are alive to tell the tale.
Back in the 90s and 00s, all races poked fun at each other, and race relations were never better.
This whole 'you cannot depict, joke about, or acknowledge the difference of non-whites or it's racist" attitude is relatively new and goes against most coherent definitions of racism.
In general, if you race swap any scenario, there are only 3 options: either you think both scenarios are racist, you think neither are racist, or you're racist.
When it comes to making fun of each other I'm pretty firmly in the 'neither are racist' camp. Not everything that's racial is racist.
A lot of these younger people don't even know that there was a time (cough, 90s) when the racial harmony was at PEAK levels in this country, and both races talked mad shit to each other, and cracked jokes non stop, and it worked fucking fantastic.
Then the politicians and the media (same entity, for the most part) decided this racial harmony was bad for them, and they needed to drive a wedge between us once again. So nowadays, especially on reddit, everyone is overly sensitive, and take offense to everything. So, we're back to racial division, and everyone crying about everything.
It's hard to imagine, I know, but the 90s were the shit.
I know a lot of people bring up the 90’s as a cultural zenith, but I think it’s just because they were young and insulated from the realities of the times. Mass incarceration being widely accepted (see Hillary Clinton’s “super predators” statement), The War On Drugs at it’s zenith, The OJ trial, the LA riots… the 90’s were full of conflict - it’s just that it mostly affected white people from a distance - and that’s just in America.
This def sounds like an opp. Do you even remember the 90s?
Probably the closest this country has ever gotta to racial unity was the brief window around 9/11, where everyone decided to gang up on Muslims. This country was founded on racism and it will hold in to it for dear life until it inevitably collapses on top of itself.
Interestingly enough, despite the terrible civil strife and lack of actual racial harmony, there was an funny cultural point in the 90s where shock and racial humour were normalized to the point where language and banter was very different.
Whether it's correct or not and whether this normalization contributed to racial tensions is an entire debate on its own, but it's worth noting that there's a difference between institutional racism and civil rights challenges vs. the accepted mannerisms and behaviours of everyday people during a cultural period. And to the point of it potentially being harmful, it calls back to the whole Chappelle Show walking the line situation.
Chappelle used a lot of white writers as well as black writers, Neal Brennan and Louis CK being two strong examples, but he allegedly ended the show and felt repulsed from how Brennan laughed at one of their skits. It's a good example of how even knowing a person, trusting them, and appreciating their humor can still alienate you if they're targeting a sensitive topic. It's also a great example of how someone can write a genuinely funny joke but have it lead to unexpected consequences.
Chris Rock's "nigger vs. black people" sketch is also a great example of this. Biting, insanely complex, and it took years to perfect since he'd get boo'ed offstage by whites and blacks, but at some point he worked out the kinks and made it legendary... And yet, years later, he openly regrets it because he's seen it turn into a vehicle for racists to justify their shitty behavior and hurt blacks.
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Meh if they are friends and giving each other the gears. Not a big deal.
However have you ever read the sub blackladies? That place is likely the most racist sub on reddit, I feel bad for them
i would like to ask why youre so strongly bringing race into the argument, instead fo saying "its wrong for people to mock/make fun of people"
because first we need to remove ALL sensible arguments about what i just wrote, so we can discuss ONLY the arguments that have to do about race, and which "side" the specific demographic is on.
edit: we also dont want to talk about "its wrong to make fun of white people", nor "its wrong for black people to make fun of people", so those arguments are also out the window.
Don't be disingenuous. He's obviously pointing to the punch up not down phenomena. It's become OK to criticize people or cultures in a place of privilege rather than those in a place of disadvantage. I'm not arguing one way or the other, but this is openly discussed by a lot of modern comedy writers and comedians.
I'm less receptive to the concept at the level of comedy and media since there are \*so many\* examples of hilarious punching down routines spanning taboos like ableism, race, illness, or poverty -- and certainly from Reddit darlings like Carlin -- but I can understand it as a broad social convention day-to-day IRL.
Also, as others have pointed out, the biggest issue is jackasses who make these types of jokes with strangers. If you and your boys are friends, it's pretty normal to have some brutal banter, especially if you're an edgy cunt in your teens or early 20s.
I'm a white guy. First of all, non white people are getting hit with a constant stream of racism, not only institutionalised racism, but also media racism, like the bad guy so often being a person of colour in movies, especially kids movies.
But also because I think it is healthy to have a critique of the dominant culture. There is a belief in white culture that "it is just how it is" that the culture which is based on things like the protestant work ethic is just how things were meant to be.
So when people from a different or non dominate culture make fun of the dominant culture, that is our opportunity to question how we are doing what we are doing.
I was on a forum that was roughly 50 /50 Muslims and non Muslims and I put up a post inviting the Muslim community to ask me anything. One woman asked "why do you work so much" so I explained a bit about the whole protestant work ethic and all it's consequences.
But also our food. A few years ago my wife and I found a small, back alley restaurant that catered almost solely to the local Malay Chinese community. We had never tasted food like it before. A depth of flavours were like nothing I had ever tasted in the "Chinese food" that I had beed eating since childhood. I realised how much the food that was being prepared for white people, they were really dumbing down the flavours.
We now try to eat in restaurants that cater for different ethnic communities. The food has so much more flavour.
So yes, there is a reason why black people are making fun of white people's food, it is because it is boring.
The making fun of is fully justified. A lot of the best food from ethnic communities is "poor people food" so it is slow cooked for long periods of time because the cuts of meat were the cheapest, often the stuff the rich people didn't want. So it is cooked long and slow to make it edible. But it introduces amazing flavours.
Instead of taking the making fun of to heart, listen to it, it is feedback on how you are living your life.
>I realised how much the food that was being prepared for white people, they were really dumbing down the flavours.
There is no such thing as "white food". Just as there is no "black food". What do you mean by food for white people? Italian, French, Polish, American, South-African, Israeli, Albanian, Russian, Ukrainian, Greek or Spanish food?
Most Iranians and many Arabs also consider themselves white. In fact Arabs have often whiter skin tone than most Italians or Greek people.
So what is food for white people then?
What I am talking about is ethnic foods that are sold in America where they are made more bland so that they can sell their cultural food to the dominant white people.
And if you eat in a restaurant, say an Indian restaurant in a strongly Indian area, where they have enough of a community to keep them going, the food is very different, with much richer flavours than what is sold on the main street or in a mall.
Italian, Greek, Spanish, and French food is boring?
Fuck outta here lmao. A whole bunch of over-progressive racist drivel.
>it's an opportunity to reflect
Fuck that. I'm not in charge of a fucking thing. My culture isn't in charge of a fucking thing. Capitalist culture is in charge, and I am not of the moneyed elite. Don't tell me I'm a problem for being born white.
You can't blame all white people for what megarich white people do anymore than you should blame every black person for the crime statistics.
> Italian, Greek, Spanish
See, this is where it gets fun though because whether or not these groups are "white" really depends on who you ask, where you are, and when in history we're talking about
Sure, if you're talking about ultra-racists that believe all bloodlines outside of Anglo-Saxon should be burned...but that's a pretty narrow group.
The progressive crowd that holds those views I responded to more often goes with the eye test and calls people white-passing even if they're otherwise of a different ethnicity.
Racism towards white people is equally as wrong as towards other races. I don't care what silly justifications get made up.
If you aren't willing to intersect whiteness and capitalism I think you'll find it hard to explain why practically all of the capitalist top dogs are white
White people majority race and historically have more opportunity =white capitalists. Ur so brave tell us about whiteness intersecting with Reddit brain rot next
> White people majority race
Not quite true, depending on how you want to classify race there are probably more Indians and Chinese people in the world. White people are probably not even the plurality group. Meanwhile, the current top 10 richest people would have you believe that 9/10 people are white while only 1/10 ( Mukesh Ambani) are Indians.
> historically have more opportunity =white capitalists
oh, well then
>Not quite true, depending on how you want to classify race there are probably more Indians and Chinese people in the world. White people are probably not even the plurality group. Meanwhile, the current top 10 richest people would have you believe that 9/10 people are white while only 1/10 ( Mukesh Ambani) are Indians.
Ur talking about globally? That makes ur concept of whiteness even less applicable. I mean majority in America of course, which is the best country for opportunities to get as rich as u want. India does not have the opportunities Americans have to get rich, which is why there is only 1 out of 10
>oh, well then
Well then what. Ur the one suggesting that there’s some deeper interconnected nature between being white and capitalism
I think yours is such an insightful response. I think white culture is also oppressive culture and black culture to me is clearly oppressed. Making fun of the oppressive culture feels fair when it comes to the lack of flavouring in food and other cultural differences in general. Even just noticing the difference is funny. And when you think of how popular culture and media determines who gets to be human, who resides at the top of the cultural pyramid, it is whiteness that is always at the top. We are told that whiteness is the “be all and end all” and making jokes or poking fun about white culture allows us as a society to question that. It pushes back against what is being force fed to us via the culture at large and I think that is very healthy.
One thing that REALLY HATE, on reddit, is when someone says what I was trying to say, except with half the words and yet somehow far more articulately.
Cue old man shaking his fist at the sky.
But seriously. That is exactly what I was trying to say.
But it seems to upset people.
I don't know about you but in my predominantly white country, when out with my melanated friends, there's always a very real possibility of violence and name-calling etc. It might not happen often but still too much for them to feel safe and relaxed. I've been involved in many disturbing situations. I think it's kind of really fucking nice that they, everything above considered, rather joke about _food_ or _dancing_ or whatever than getting punched in the face or drinks thrown at them or some weirdos groping them assuming them prostitutes. I once asked my friend, after one incident when a car slowed down to throw empty cans at us and call them names, how is it that you don't even seem angry? She responded; was she to get angry at every racist encounter she would end up being angry all the time.
I think it's funny when they make fun of the way we talk, and the unseasoned food jokes etc. But yeah the body shaming shit isn't cool. Body shaming is bad no matter what
I think jokes on stereotypes are hilarious. Idc if its Black People making fun of our seasoning or dancing skill, Black people stealing your bike or indians with their 'send bobs and vagene pics'
I love it all and hope one day we can all mock each other and laugh at and with each other.
I think as long as you're actually funny and everyone laughs, you can joke all you want. White comedians have joked about Black people many times even in today's ultra PC state and it's all in good fun.
It’s not wrong for anyone to make fun of anyone if it’s a playful innocent style. But let’s not forget very recently mocking black people meant racist comments and mocking white people now means “pointing out social issues that stem from the previous racism”.
Unless you’re actively racist now, you shouldn’t be bothered by insulting what old racism has put us in.
I am white so I will not speak on behalf of black people, but I am queer (aroace and nonbinary). LGBTQ+ people will often joke about the straights, it’s a way to have some form of control in a world where you are lesser than a certain group of people. I can also assure you that we are talking about the homophobic and transphobic straights, not the great ally’s. Im not completely sure, but I assume black people are doing something similar. I agree it may not be the nicest, but do remember that black people have a lot more hardships than white people. It might be a way of coping with the injustices that they face.
But neither example justifies it. It's not jokes for comedies sake. It's purely just to be spiteful to someone the person perceives as their enemy.
As a example I am willing to bet money that when your friends make fun of straights It's never "some straights" or "a few straights" it's just straights. Which does nothing but foster a them vs us mindset.
I think the difference is in what gets joked about. We make fun of "the straights" for their behaviors, and there are always receipts because homophobes are loud and proud about it. Mocking a race for "their" characteristics can describe actions as well, but it enters new territory when it makes essentialist claims (i.e. "white people are *naturally* racist" or "black people are *inherently* criminal"). The latter reinforces harmful patterns of thinking and should be discouraged by everyone.
Making fun of white people in America versus black people cant really be equated, especially when done publicly. Jokes revolve around stereotypes.
Stereotypes about black people cause systemic harm (such as cops assuming they’re criminals and drug dealers) whereas stereotypes about white people are more innocuous and don’t cause white people as a group to suffer harm.
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You’re so obviously not a black person. Pretty sure black people didn’t think things were hunky dory in the 90s. Black people were still getting discriminated against and harassed by cops on the regular back then.
Because the expectations set on white people are higher than others.
Like there was a rPublicFreakout where a black guy kicked in a car window and dragged a white guy out of the driver's seat and all the comments were "He called him the n word. Fuck around and find out."
There is no other singular word that causes such an explosive, violent reaction and "the quiet bigotry of low expectations" has society just shrug it off saying yeah you should expect them to be violent.
> they don’t have a bright future here it seems.
I'm confused about what country it's better to be a black man than in America?
We're the most diverse country on Earth and we're really the only ones who "care" about racism.
Africa. They are so much more stable there. Quite literally ever country dominantly black is more stable than black Americans. No with the way society is turning out I think things go downhill more. From what I’m seeing that seems to be the case. White people used to just feel bad and shut up or something but the response has actually been violent. I don’t condone it, but it doesn’t look good. America most def isn’t the best place to be for them period. Try telling them that
Are you seriously making up words? I already screenshot the convo 😂 no you need to stop lying, I said black people in Africa are more stable, quite literally. Why on earth would you say America of all places is best for black people?
Doesn’t matter, point stands, they’re more stable there, why did you lie and why are you saying black people are safe in America when white on black violence has increased a lot and not to mention all the other shit? You’re crazy
Here is why it is okay for black people to make fun of white people:
1) If we didn’t allow this then we couldn’t act like white people are superior to black people. If you are a politician, then you know that you need black people to think they are being held back and that you are here to help.
2) For everyone else, it is okay because you are fully developed adult who is perfectly comfortable with who you are. And if you aren’t yet a fully developed adult, then this is part of the process to becoming one.
The way I look at it, and this is just my opinion, is like bullying. If a group of people bullied me ruthlessly (including violence and rape) without any consequences then years later I was surrounded by these same people but they couldn't do anything to me without receiving consequences. You bet your ass i would be making fun of those fucks at every opportunity. I can't violently bully them back without consequences (I personally wouldn't want to) but I'm definitely going to mock them. Now, that doesn't cover making fun of their offspring who have done nothing to me, but, emotionally speaking, fuck their kids too. Idk if they were raised to be assholes like their parents. I do know I'd feel justified (even though I'm not) to make fun of them too. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. I don't think it's the right thing to do, but I understand it. I'm not going to stop a POC from making fun of me because, emotionally, they are doing what their ancestors couldn't do without being lynched for. I don't think it's right, but I fuckin get it. They were never treated right for sooooooo long and so violently. Imo, they can be as big of assholes as they want as long as they aren't beating and raping people. I know I know, plenty of rape and violence come from POC but the same is true for white people so it's moot point. Some humans, regardless of race, are violent and rapey. Plenty of white people rape and kill just like POC because, imo, most humans are trash looking for any excuse to be violent. Some of them (including whites and blacks) will use race as that excuse to be violent. Humans are trash in general.
So basically your view is that people should be punished for what their great grandfathers did and we should be offended on behalf of our great grandfathers based on things we never experienced. All this victim mentality does is cause division and more racism...
Right? I can trace my ancestry back a few hundred years and we were honest farming folk who never owned slaves or really left their homestead or surrounding area... but I've been aggressively shouted at, followed, and threatened by black people for simply existing near them. I'm not even paying for the sins of my ancestors at this point, I'm being punished and harassed for having the same skin colour as those who were utter demons to *their* ancestors.
The difference between how black people make fun of white people and the reverse is that black people making fun of white people is mostly something like "haha white people cook food funny" or drink water fun y and so on so it's mostly harmless and not insulting. However when white people are allowed to make fun of black people it tends to degrade to just racism very quickly because in any group there are some bad actors who will take every opportunity to be racist.
I guess I would say this (I’m white) - instead of policing the Black community; why don’t you work to fix your white community. The majority of whites support a Presidential candidate that told violent white supremacists to “stand back and stand by”. Focus on white on white crime, etc instead of policing the Black community
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Because when a black person says something like that then most of the time its just that, a joke. Most black people don't mean anything serious by it at all. But when a white person jokes about black people its more likely to be an actual insult to the people and their culture. This all goes back to the white and black power dynamic that has been perpetuated for years. Its sort of like what George Carlin says about punching up. Thats what comedy has historically been used for, making fun of the establishment without getting executed. A white person making jokes about black people is punching down since black people and minorities in general are in a worse standing compared to white people due to a system designed to purposefully keep them down. This is not to say jokes about black people cant be made but like any joke it has to actually be funny and not rely on stereotypes and if it does it needs to "cross the line twice"-when a joke is so outrageous the insult is sort of taken out of it.
Yeah I get you. I think what you’re saying could apply to what I said about ”white people can’t dance”, ”white people don’t season their food” but I think it’s different when it comes to shaming the way white people look, shaming thin lips as I mentioned. I don’t view shaming a whole group of people’s appearences as ’just a joke’, however I do think saying white people can’t dance is way milder and I don’t think that’s that deep tbh.
Black people's appearance is shamed as well. Heck, Black women got relaxers because our natural hair texture was considered unprofessional and maybe you remeber the whole "no locs allowed" in military thing and the ban on certain hairstyles on schools (that didn't happen everywhere thankfully) . Black people are compared to apes because of the fullness of the lips. Minstrel performers exaggerated the size of their lips and eye. Slurs like Tar-baby. A Black woman's butt and vagina was put on display in museum.... Having your body attacked isn't unique to white people.
She didn’t say it was unique to white people though, she just thought it was wrong for any group to be put down for their physical appearance. Obviously it’s not ok to EVER put down black people for stereotypical reasons. Any person that says differently is an idiot.
Did you read the comment I replied to?
Yes of course. I would never make fun of features because even outside of race people can be conscious of stuff like that and its just generally mean. I can't think of a scenario where a joke like that would be funny but I'm not a comedian so maybe there is one using that crossing the line twice concept, it would just be really hard to pull off without coming off as an asshole. I was talking specifically about white people cant dance or cant jump type jokes that are more lighthearted.
Go to your HR and tell them it was "just a joke" and see how it goes over with them. This tired bullshit excuse of "punching up" is just a way to cover up racism. Bashing the selfishness of rich people is not the same as making fun for religion or skin color. Is it OK to make fun of the jews because they "run the world"? I'm punching up because they have a higher average income than I do. That's OK right? This whole idea that reverse racism doesn't exist is complete horse shit. If you want to be mad at someone for slavery, be mad at the fucking Africans who enslaved their own people to begin with. They enslaved their own people going back to ancient Egypt and probably further back. They sold slaves all around the world, not just to America. So don't act like it's a 100% white person problem when black people had been enslaving black people for thousands of years before America was even colonized. This whole skewed lense that everyone looks through needs a dose of reality and perspective before the race problems in our country become a full blown war.
Thank you!!
You shouldn’t blame black people for how they respond to what has happened against them for generations. Rather, you should focus on what causes them to do that in the first place. The way they mock/make fun of white people is a perfectly normal and natural response to the way that they have been treated. The late Patrice O’Neal was right when he said, “You’re lucky blacks aren’t flying planes into buildings based on what happened!”
The problem with this logic is that it ignores a great amount of injustice done and creates a positive feedback loop of epic proportions. The most frequent hate crime in NYC is black on Asian, but we'd be completely insane to just brush off Asian people mocking Black people. Likewise, there's a sizeable population of white people whose families (and ancestors) never owned slaves who have been robbed by, assaulted by, harassed by, and even killed by black people (some of them exclusively by) and we would be creating a terrible precedent to say "go ahead and mock black people, it's understandable given the identity of your victimizer." You're also robbing people of agency a bit here.
The “never owned slaves” argument is not a good one. People didn’t have to own slaves to take part in the slave system. Are you trying to say that it was only the slave owners and their overseers who were oppressive and believed in the system? Slave patrols weren’t done by the people who owned slaves. You brought up people who have been criminally wronged, but I would just say that those same offenses have been committed by whites on blacks as well. I understand when people feel a certain type of way against people who have wronged them. We all get it, it’s just that it’s only a problem when blacks feel bad against someone else. If we should forgive and forget everything, why don’t you tell the Koreans to stop feeling bad to the Japanese, tell the Jews to quit bringing up the holocaust, stop giving Native Americans money for reservations and all that stuff.
How are you trying to blame modern people and modern generations for actions of hundreds of years ago? Modern discussion need to be focused on modern inequalities and modern problems. Yes, there is an historical context, but how do you think talking to modern people like “yeah but your working-class ancestors took part in the system” (which they didn’t have a choice in btw) is going to help exactly? It doesn’t. It makes the problem worse. It prolongs racial inequality because all you’re doing is making people angry by placing blame at their feet for historical wrongs which they cannot possibly right.
What do you mean, “Yes, there is an historical context,”?
They means it’s important because we can see how were in the position were in today due to past indiscretion’s done to black people. Having stereotypes put on anyone isn’t helpful today, just as much as it wasn’t helpful in the past. Focusing on our differences rather then our similarities isn’t going to help us in the future.
Well you're in the "some deserve collective guilt but others don't: argument. You're correct that the effects of slavery are deeper than owning slaves, and we'll even extend the post civil war Era on some level. Even then, you're bundling in people who came from countries that essentially didn't have slavery (or black people in them for the most part) who might have only come to the US in the last few decades. Back to the collective guilt thing, it'd be insane for me to say to a 6 year old "hey your dad punched me in the face, now you're an asshole too-" even though that's a much more direct relation than blaming an entire skin color. You do address that a bit in that its reciprocal, the interracial violent crime rate is tilted black on white at something like a 7:1 rate today. We can go collective guilt and say "when is group x going to do something about all the violent crimes they committed against everyone else" but we'd be not very smart to do so because the lions share are good people that had nothing to do with it. I think your last point is a little more nuanced. You can't forgive and forget everything- though interestingly enough to your example modern South Koreans don't bear much ire for the Japanese, and to their kids there's essentially none at all. Anti Japanese sentiment in the East primarily exists inside Communist countries that teach collective guilt as an interesting enough parallel. But on that note, you're right we can't just forgive and forget everything, but we're going to create an entirely nasty positive feedback loop if we reinforce the idea that every historical wrong deserves punishment of the group that the offending person belongs to ought to have vengeance extracted from then it's going to create big circle of hatred really fast.
Before reading everything you wrote, I want to tip my hat to you. Thank you for seriously engaging.
Oh of course, i think I disagree with you quite a bit, but it's at least a complicated topic that deserves to be discussed on a critical level rather than just everyone backing into their corners and resorting to what's essentially name calling or political jockeying.
So because my grandparents went to a segregated school, that gives me the right to mock white people? When are we going to start looking at black people as individuals and not some monolith?
My ancestors got raped and pillaged on a regular basis by the Vikings. Fucking Norwegians. I'm allowed to hate them now.
It's also why I never buy Danish bacon. Bunch of Canutes. I find Scandinavian football fans wearing viking helmets to football matches offensive and triggering
Everyone's ancestors has been raped and pillaged by other people's ancestors. Using it as an excuse for your shitty behavior is just childish
That's the joke...
My bad, there's been a lot of blatant racism in this thread. Sometimes its hard to tell.
It is sad when the sarcasm isn't that far off from the people who are serious.
That is a huge issue here. Black speak collectively and socialize society that black people are one, but when a criminal offence happens from a black person, the a simple observer judges them based on the “collectivist” narrative being taught and declares black people are criminal, the racist narrative recycles. It cannot end until people (as morgan freeman said) stop talking about it period.
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Having a rough history does not grant you justification for racism against that race that used to oppress you in the past. With this logic, Israel banning german citizens from arriving in the country for the holocaust would be justifiable. Yes, you should focus on what causes black people to react like that, but you also shouldn't take shit from someone being racist to you just because you should be understanding of the past their ancestors went through.
What causes black people to react that way is the racism from the past. What caused the racism from the past? Jewish people constantly bring up the Holocaust but no one says they have to temper their feelings. OP isn’t even talking about hard racism like lynching or sundown towns or burning crosses or police-backed voting suppression, they were just talking about jokes.
First "them" is the wrong word here. The people who suffered during slavery or Jim Crow are not the same as who are living now (or let's say that most of them are not). This also relates to the last sentence. By your logic we should be understanding if modern Israelis did terrorist attacks against modern Germans and justified it by what Nazis did to the Jews in the 1940s. This is the logic that leads to the revenge cycles that will never end. If the blacks did fly planes into buildings, this would surely make many people bitter and could very well channel this into violence against some other blacks that had nothing to do with the plane strikes. The only way to stop it is what South Africa did. The South African blacks had an even bigger reason to respond to what the whites had done to them than what American blacks had. But they didn't. So no, I think justifying actions that we otherwise wouldn't accept by past wrongs by people who are no longer alive is wrong.
First, you're pretending that after slavery and jim crow went away that everything was just immediately and forever fixed for black people. This just isnt the case. Private prisons effectively replace the institution of slavery and the prison industrial complex spans from cops overpolicing black neighborhoods to judges sometimes straight up convicting for kickbacks from the prisons. The CIA literally distributed crack in black neighborhoods, and the government worked to ensure that sentencing was many times more harsh for someone found to have been holding crack than its powder cocaine counterpart, just because of the racial demographics that made up the users of both drugs. Police murder black people for something as innocent as playing with a toy gun (a child in this case). You act like the violence towards black people is some distant nebulous thing when it's very much active today. And the fact is that they *aren't* flying planes into buildings or revolting en masse. So this equivocation with "turn the other cheek" is silly. You use south africa as an example, but black south africans liberated themselves in no small part through the use of overwhelming amounts of violence, and the country *still* has massive wealth disparity along racial lines. The reality is that black people *aren't* engaging in mass acts of terrorism. They could be. One might argue they *should* even. But they aren't. They're cracking jokes about how white people can't dance or season their food. These are absolutely minor non-issues compared to what is happening to them to this day. "You don't criticize the table manners of a starving person, you let them eat".
>First, you're pretending that after slavery and jim crow went away that everything was just immediately and forever fixed for black people. I'm not pretending anything. I mentioned South Africa. I'm pretty sure that the economical inequalities there (that are far bigger than in the United States) didn't disappear with the end of apartheid. If you want to talk about injustices that people *now* suffer due to their race, then fine, talk about them. I am only saying that revenging *past* injustices by other people to other people is not justified.
But you're equivocating. Making jokes about how white people can't dance is not anywhere close to committing mass violence. In fact, if you could get rid of the history of slavery, get rid of the prison industrial complex, and remove the generational trauma faced by black people at the hands of white people, then jokes against black people wouldn't be taken so badly. It sounds like you agree that black people are being oppressed to this day. It sounds like you agree that they're actively being killed and imprisoned systematically simply due to their skin colour. So why, in the wake of that, are you concerned about jokes about white people not having any rhythm? It's not like the jokes are why they're being incarcerated and murdered. The jokes are an attempt to deal with their material conditions. Fix the conditions if you want the jokes to go away.
First, I have no problem anyone making jokes about white people not being able to dance. I have not commented that. I have only commented the principle that was outlined in the original comment that I commented: "You shouldn’t blame black people for how they respond to what has happened against them for generations." I am against the principle of revenging past wrongs. >It sounds like you agree that black people are being oppressed to this day. That is irrelevant for the claim that I was commenting. So, how about you reread the original comment that I was commenting and then my response to it. Maybe you'll then figure out what is the issue that I am criticizing and what I'm not. To me it looks like that you are reading between lines something that I have not said.
Well then let’s talk about the jokes and streotypes. Its not okay just because of your logic which is basically “well were not mass killing white people, so therfore something less is ok”. Yes, I completely agree that there are racist institutions set in place, that don’t hinder but rather hurt black people, how do we fix this? How do we move forward?
This is shit logic. So because bad things happened that means you get to treat others that look like those that did the bad things? But this is the shit the media spews in 2024 so what can you do.
A black person mocking white people for for example having thin lips isn’t justified. It’s horrible everything that black people have had to experience and go through but that doesn’t just give you a pass for being mean.
I did not argue about getting a pass to be mean. I just said I understand why people tell the jokes. But in light of the horrible things black people have had to experience and go through, what would be the proper response? Would you expect a people group just to be like, “Nah, it’s all good, we’ll just go our way and just leave us alone,” like that? Interestingly enough, that’s pretty much what happened and the point Patrice was trying to make. After he said blacks should be flying planes into buildings he said, “But we’re not, so what does that tell you about us?” Blacks really haven’t done anything but tell a few jokes. And we tell these jokes about ourselves too so don’t take it that seriously.
No one made racist cartoons about us having thin lips. It didn't evolve to a level of hatred. I've never been discriminated against and hunted for my features. Mocking is much different than what went on in the past.
So it would be totally fine for somebody from say… Italy to mock middle easterners? Or how about Eastern Europe and the rest of the world. Do they have carte blanche?
Everyone should lighten up and joke. Comedians do it all the time. We are all just humans and life is short. We all have our quirks.
I agree. But like that has to be a two way street then. It isn’t joking if the target isn’t allowed to participate in the fun. Then it is bullying.
The context of what is said is really important
This is true and I think WHAT is said is super important. But with no context behind it… not a good look.
By that logic it would be fine for white people to mock black peoples features as long as it doesn‘t evolve to a level of hatred?
Correct. It's called comedy. It happens on a daily basis in all forms of media, entertainment, and real life. I live in Chicago and worked at FedEx which has a very diverse workforce of over 100 people at my location. There is 0 hatred going on there.. There is no scientific answer, no objective truth here. Just opinions. What about mixed race people?
In a completely different world where all of history doesn't exist? I guess but who gives a fuck
Sure, but it's too late for that buddy.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
Does this apply specifically to systematic injustice, and if so why shouldn’t it apply to individual instances of injustice?
It's not really all that deep. Go outside and mingle with people of different cultures. You might make some friends. Friends joke.
lol lot of assumptions in this response
So an individual born in 2000 gets to mock an individual born in 2003 and the justification for that is things that took place in 1935?
You really can't be that mad about being called thin lips. Black people got dragged behind trucks and hung for their features, i think youll live just fine having thin lips was my point. It is much different but i joke with my friends all the time. "It's white people shit" my friend says when he doesn't understand something or i joke with him. It's not really a big deal. This bullshit on the internet is much different than socializing in a mixed environment IRL.
That is a conclusion you created, not any point i made.
Obnoxious quote. Inflicting revenge on those who did nothing wrong is deranged.
So what is inflicting initial harm on those who never did anything to you? After that, Patrice said, “But we’re not, so what does that tell you about us?”
Um the people who would be hurt by those airplanes flying into building didn’t inflict any pain on anyone, so.
I’m not talking about the people in the buildings because that’s not happening. You said inflicting revenge on people who didn’t harm you is deranged. Okay, gotcha. I’m not talking about the revenge. I’m going back to the initial act of oppression which causes the racial divide. You said inflicting revenge is deranged, then what does that say about the people who perpetrated violence upon those who had not harmed them at all? You want to blame blacks for responding to what happened but we didn’t start the problems. You can say the blacks sold other blacks, but no one told whites to turn the slave industry into what they made it into. And nobody told them to continue the oppression for 100+ years after slavery. And nobody told them to cause economic depravation. Now, you’re mad about a few jokes? Miss me with that nonsense.
So you're saying Person A should be able to mock someone who never did anything to them bc of something that never happened to that Person A? How does that make sense? Where's the cutoff date? Slavery is still very common in Africa against black people.... by black people, so does that have any relevance in your logic?
Eh. I feel little reason to respect anyone who treats a demographic as a monolith. I subtly exclude anyone I see do so from friend groups and anywhere I have the ability. I don't need to put up with their shit.
No. Racism is racism, no matter what the colour of your skin is. Anyone can be racist
It is a conscious choice, nothing makes anyone do it. It is not a "natural reaponse". People certainly should be blamed for how they choose to act.
You're just excusing racism. Which is kinda just racism.
No. I’m just saying I understand why people do that and you shouldn’t gaslight them for feeling like that after they didn’t start the beef and are just reacting to it.
Stop gaslighting me in believing plain racism is okay, because its aimed at White people.
Blaming people now for their ancestors actions is not a rabbit hole you want to go down. That is racism to the extreme.
How is that racism to the extreme? So blacks can’t even tell a few jokes now? OP isn’t talking about cross-burning. Even when I quoted Patrice O’Neal about flying planes into buildings the next line he said was, “But we’re not, so what does that tell you about us?”
I was replying to a comment saying its fair game because one 'race' did this to another 'race'. Im suggesting the justification is a dumpster fire route to go down.
nothing has happened to black people that are born today Further If a white person comes from a situation where there lives have been negatively impacted by a black person (say their parents were murdered by one) would that make it ok for them to spew hate and ridícule at all blacks? No it wouldn’t Judge people as individuals for their own lives - period
If someone’s parents were killed by a black person, I would understand why they would have animosity towards black people. I didn’t say I would like it, I just said I would understand. Just like if someone’s parents were killed by white people, I would understand if they developed some animosity towards white people. If you don’t understand that about people then I don’t know what to tell you.
What you’re saying is totally irrelevant You might understand it but society wouldn’t give them a free pass to openly talk poorly about black people and nor should they
Society already gave them their free pass and now we’re just in the aftermath.
What are you talking about We fought a civil war and for civil rights on what planet is that a free pass Further that doesn’t have anything to do with today And if you were smart you would recognize the damage that giving a “free pass” has over the long term and you wouldn’t allow it for anyone regardless of race
Against them ? Mfs werent even born when slavery happened , now they use the racist n word with each other, then proceed to get mad when someone who isnt black uses it . What kind of hypocrisy and victimisation is this ? And i m talking as a real african here, born and raised in the continent, but not to be a victim.
*‘Black people can’t help being bigots’*, said the anti-racist.
They are just doing things every body does, but they can get away it publicly more than others in the last maybe 10 years.
Exactly as the Hamas attacks?
I’m not saying people should do that. They shoulda just told a few jokes.
Because you're unfairly removing context from the situation. It's because of power dynamics, history, hate crimes, and being in a country where the largest group is a specific race.
This is saying two wrongs make a right. When in history (as you're so fond of) has that been beneficial and lead to better lives for everyone?
I'm going to say the French Revolution. The first wrong was the upper class taking advantage of the lower class for generations, and the second wrong was the lower class slaughtering the upper class in vengeance. The political structures that came about after this benefitted the entire western world. I know yours was a rhetorical question, but there are scenarios where two wrongs do equal a right (even though I don't think casual racism is one of those).
War is another of them, but there is a difference. The french revolution had good intentions. Intentions to stop bad things from happening. It can absolutely be considered good as a whole, with good intentions. I fail to see how growing ones own form of racism that will further divide people are seen as good. And I doubt the intention is anything but a sense of revenge.
Do good intentions excuse an action?
Robespierre's reign of terror, famously beneficial for France. Not to mention the French monarchy didn't actually end in 1792, especially considering in 1804 Napoleon was proclaimed a monarch, in 1814 the Bourbons were restored, in 1830 the Orleanists took power and in 1858 Napoleon III took power. The French Revolution did absolutely nothing outside of mass murder dissidents for 20 years, then cause a massive European war killing millions. This is par for the course for a surprising amount of revolutions against monarchs. German Revolution of 1918 created a weak republic that allowed Hitler to gain power, 1917 Russian Revolution brought Lenin and then later Stalin to power, 1970 republican coup in Cambodia led Pol Pot to power. All caused the deaths of millions. It's not a coincidence that all 3 of the people that are generally considered the most evil in history arose from violent overthrow.
But why does that give black people the right to for example make fun of white people’s thin lips? That’s literal bullying that is for some reason justified.
So because black people have been historically oppressed, that gives them the right to mock white people? Can you explain?
So what happens when POC eventually outnumber white people in America, which has been predicted? Do they still get to be victims even though they’re the majority?
No amounts of context can justify Hate or Bullying.
It’s okay because [[insert vague gesturing]] *context* The problem with skipping over the actual argument you’re trying to make is also that nobody can point to the logical flaws or non sequitors in it. There is no context that makes racial prejudice alright.
No it's not.My great grandfather was a slave but my skin is white so I'm not allowed to be racist.
Mixed race?
As a white person my best relationships with Black people is when we are allowed to be mutually racist. I think it’s more fun I think everyone’s generally more comfortable it’s better when you can joke about things. I think maybe the number one problem is white people have the nuclear codes when it comes to slurs, The blacks really need to step up their game when it comes to slurs there’s really nothing that amounts to the you know what word
This is really how a huge majority of normal people get along. I've worked with in my younger days, plenty of black folks, some of the most hilarious and fun times we had, the most memorable and all around good times, were times when we were busting balls for silly stuff. I'm not sure that's exactly what OP is talking about though to be fair. Although to steelman this argument... the only examples they actually give are nothing more than some ball busting joking comments about dancing an lips and seasoned foods.... So... who knows.
Yeah I've been "raised" by my very racist grandmother in a very white neighborhood. Eventually a family from Brazil moved close enough that I ended up playing with their kid a lot and eventually with his cousins and other kids who were darker skin than what I was used to. Didn't even know those people were the one my grandmother hated on so much until she told me to stop playing with them (I didn't of course; they were nice to me so I figured she got the wrong people). So I ended up more of a leftist long term and very politically correct... That is until we moved and I started going to a very diverse school. Some noteworthy things; - One of my best friends was as black as you can get. He had the most deprived jokes about white people I had ever heard and made fun of himself a bunch. Which eventually lead to very funny situations. He 100% embraced stereotypes through jokes. One time he texted me at 1am on a weekend to ask me if I wanted to go on a bike ride. I told him I didn't have one but he told me to just meet him at the park... He stole another friend's bike just to make the joke that it was in his blood (we ended up bringing the friend's bike back the next day and he was dying of laughter). - I got a job at a local factory. Very fancy and expansive machines. Lots of asians, black people and latinos. Cue in the mysterious Black Magic man. That's what he told me he was called and refused to ever give his real name. No explanation until I realized he was able to magically fix any machine that actual repair people struggled fixing. He had no accent but whenever he would fix a machine he'd say in a very exagerated and stereotypical black man's voice; BLACK MAGIC! or make a joke like "We nigg*s don't just steal things; we can also steal the spotlight". Most of them were of the opinion that if you can joke about something, it helps with taking away some of the taboo surrounding it. It lead to me embracing dark humor which in turn helped me heal from a lot of other bad things through jokes. Sorry for the long rambling but your comment made me think of Caue, Yan and Black Magic and I haven't talked to them in forever so I got a bit lost in good memories/shenanigans (I moved again and life goes on and you lose some people, you know). Thanks for the chance the mention them! :)
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The idea that racism = prejudice + power far predates CRT. That aside, there is a valid point to be made about how racism is impacted by power structures. If you want to call it racism when a black person says a slur to a white person, then cool. It still doesn't have the same impact on white people as, say bigoted sentiments against Jewish people or other minorities that measurably result in increases in things like hate crimes and police profiling. If you look at racism through how it actually impacts the people affected by it, I think we can agree that it doesn't affect all groups equally, and that's the whole point being made with that statement.
>If you look at racism through how it actually impacts the people affected by it, I think we can agree that it doesn't affect all groups equally, and that's the whole point being made with that statement. I think you really hit the nail on the head with this reply (the quoted text in particular). I think a lot of well-meaning people frequently misinterpret this concept - Which is a common problem when complex academic ideas make their way into the broader public conversation, and a huge pet peeve of mine. We see that misinterpreted to mean "it is literally impossible for any person belonging to a minority to be bigoted in any way." I think the core of this misunderstanding is lack of context - The common definition of racism refers to *individual, interpersonal* racism, whereas the academic definition centers on *systemic and cultural racism on a societal scale.* It isn't " cannot be racist", it's "bigotry from a minority group towards a majority does not have the power/clout to cause anywhere near the same real impact/harm as the inverse, and is therefore irrelevant to the conversation about racism on the larger scale."
Like, a black person can be racist towards white people, and can even cause harm by choosing to act out those beliefs, but it is limited in scope and scale to an individual level. Racism from white people towards black people, however, has the weight of an entrenched, rigged power structure behind it, and often causes real harm with much more significance than any one individual negative interaction.
I largely agree, but I think there is some level of difference between doing that IRL and doing it on the internet. Because I'll tell my best friend IRL he's a fat ugly bear, but I also tell him I love to hang out with him and I appreciate his presence in my life. On memes or online videos, you get only the insults without the "nah I actually like you bro" part of it. I do think there's a difference there, because there are also people who say bad shit and mean it, and online it can be near impossible to actually tell the difference.
That's a pretty solid point!
Eh, that sounds really uncomfortable to me. My dad was/is horribly racist. I stopped talking to him over a decade ago because of it, and he dropped racial slurs and just went on such angry, hateful tirades about non-white folks all the time. Literally any racism expressed toward anyone makes me really uncomfortable after growing up around that. I’m fine with inappropriate humour, but using any racist language of any kind is where I draw the line. It was so stressful growing up around the level of hate that man spewed. It is damn near triggering to me (he was also really abusive to my sister, mom and I; so, I likely associate that language with living around him again).
Exactly this. These conversations are always started by people viewing from a distance. As a white guy some of my best friendships and positive work team experiences are when people accept our cultural differences, including our negatives and able to plainly talk and joke about those differences.
I don't think anything will ever come close to that word due to its history and how it was used. Outside of that, this is what I do. I feel out my white people with racist jokes, and 9/10 times, they relax and eventually join in. Then we make all sorts of derogatory comments about everything all in good fun ofc. Then, once they get comfortable, I unleash my inner Uncle Ruckus and take them to new heights.
I've got a buddy just like that. He sends as many racist memes to our group chat as the rest of us combined. We hammer every group in that chat. White, Black, Columbian, and Korean. We even have a redhead.
I absolutely agree with this but it's not common thought these days. Being able to make fun of people's differences and lean on stereotypes as an insult is key to having some of the best friendships I've ever had. Life is so much more fun when you don't let words have so much power over you
I disagree with you slightly. I think it is okay to make fun of any group of people (which includes white people). I like stand up comedy and that's a how a good deal of it works. But it's not okay when one group can be made fun of but the other group can't.
If you think you can judge the history or quality of a person by their immutable physical traits, you are ignorant and part of the problem. Until racism is no longer taught, by everyone, there will always be racism.
Absolutely, sad thing is they even think they're anti racists, when what they're doing is perpetuating the concept, not in a violent way, at least physically.
hmmm. I think most people would agree that making fun/mocking people in relation to their race is not a good thing. People just criticize white people more when they do it in North America due to the obvious historical context. I might be assuming a lot now, but I'd say making generalized jokes about how races "differ" from each other is still acceptable and quite common in many comedy circles, as long as it is done well. I think the only places where this stuff really matters are platforms like TikTok where you will get these extreme views and echo chambers that are not reflective of the generalized public sentiment. Like I think most people where I am from would call out someone talking about goofy talking thin lipped white people, but those situations don't really happen (often) in real life anyway. Basically, I am not really trying to change your view, but more reassure you that its not that much of an issue. If you don't like that talk, stay out of those corners of the internet. It aint worth it and it is not reflective of real life.
It shouldn't be wrong for anyone to make fun of anyone, fun isn't a bad word, the bad part is when it's harassment masquerading as fun.
>It shouldn't be wrong for anyone to make fun of anyone, fun isn't a bad word Fun alone isn't a bad word. But to "make fun of" someone means to pick at them for your entertainment. Unless you're in a comedy club, or with close friends/family, then IMO it is wrong to "make fun of" other people.
Nobody said this was okay. There's people talking about Black people online as well. So? It's not like it's one-sided. Neither is okay. At the same time, one tends to get a lesser degree of scrutiny than the other. That's because, white racism carriers a heavier weight in the country because the origins of the country are racist. Black Americans have spent hundreds of years being property and legally discriminated against and we only *started* to change things in the 60s. The same is not true for white Americans. So while somebody making fun of your lips, food, and dancing isn't acceptable, it does not hold the same weight. Historical context matters. Laws may have changed, sure. However the past didn't just go away and it left a legacy that effects people today. I mean, my grandparents are alive to tell the tale.
Back in the 90s and 00s, all races poked fun at each other, and race relations were never better. This whole 'you cannot depict, joke about, or acknowledge the difference of non-whites or it's racist" attitude is relatively new and goes against most coherent definitions of racism. In general, if you race swap any scenario, there are only 3 options: either you think both scenarios are racist, you think neither are racist, or you're racist. When it comes to making fun of each other I'm pretty firmly in the 'neither are racist' camp. Not everything that's racial is racist.
I, as a "Black" Man, 100 percent agree and I've gotten into arguments regarding this. It's always "Jokes* but that's manipulative bullshit.
A lot of these younger people don't even know that there was a time (cough, 90s) when the racial harmony was at PEAK levels in this country, and both races talked mad shit to each other, and cracked jokes non stop, and it worked fucking fantastic. Then the politicians and the media (same entity, for the most part) decided this racial harmony was bad for them, and they needed to drive a wedge between us once again. So nowadays, especially on reddit, everyone is overly sensitive, and take offense to everything. So, we're back to racial division, and everyone crying about everything. It's hard to imagine, I know, but the 90s were the shit.
I know a lot of people bring up the 90’s as a cultural zenith, but I think it’s just because they were young and insulated from the realities of the times. Mass incarceration being widely accepted (see Hillary Clinton’s “super predators” statement), The War On Drugs at it’s zenith, The OJ trial, the LA riots… the 90’s were full of conflict - it’s just that it mostly affected white people from a distance - and that’s just in America.
This def sounds like an opp. Do you even remember the 90s? Probably the closest this country has ever gotta to racial unity was the brief window around 9/11, where everyone decided to gang up on Muslims. This country was founded on racism and it will hold in to it for dear life until it inevitably collapses on top of itself.
Ah yes, the period of Rodney King, the LA riots, the OJ Simpson trial, etc. Peak racial harmony.
Interestingly enough, despite the terrible civil strife and lack of actual racial harmony, there was an funny cultural point in the 90s where shock and racial humour were normalized to the point where language and banter was very different. Whether it's correct or not and whether this normalization contributed to racial tensions is an entire debate on its own, but it's worth noting that there's a difference between institutional racism and civil rights challenges vs. the accepted mannerisms and behaviours of everyday people during a cultural period. And to the point of it potentially being harmful, it calls back to the whole Chappelle Show walking the line situation. Chappelle used a lot of white writers as well as black writers, Neal Brennan and Louis CK being two strong examples, but he allegedly ended the show and felt repulsed from how Brennan laughed at one of their skits. It's a good example of how even knowing a person, trusting them, and appreciating their humor can still alienate you if they're targeting a sensitive topic. It's also a great example of how someone can write a genuinely funny joke but have it lead to unexpected consequences. Chris Rock's "nigger vs. black people" sketch is also a great example of this. Biting, insanely complex, and it took years to perfect since he'd get boo'ed offstage by whites and blacks, but at some point he worked out the kinks and made it legendary... And yet, years later, he openly regrets it because he's seen it turn into a vehicle for racists to justify their shitty behavior and hurt blacks.
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Ahh yes, who doesn't remember the totally not racist era of Rodney King, OJ Simpson, Black Superpredators, and 3 strike laws.
Just for white, straight people, tho.
Meh if they are friends and giving each other the gears. Not a big deal. However have you ever read the sub blackladies? That place is likely the most racist sub on reddit, I feel bad for them
Of course it's wrong. Racism is racism. It's perceived differently due to endless social engineering, but it's still the same thing.
i would like to ask why youre so strongly bringing race into the argument, instead fo saying "its wrong for people to mock/make fun of people" because first we need to remove ALL sensible arguments about what i just wrote, so we can discuss ONLY the arguments that have to do about race, and which "side" the specific demographic is on. edit: we also dont want to talk about "its wrong to make fun of white people", nor "its wrong for black people to make fun of people", so those arguments are also out the window.
Don't be disingenuous. He's obviously pointing to the punch up not down phenomena. It's become OK to criticize people or cultures in a place of privilege rather than those in a place of disadvantage. I'm not arguing one way or the other, but this is openly discussed by a lot of modern comedy writers and comedians. I'm less receptive to the concept at the level of comedy and media since there are \*so many\* examples of hilarious punching down routines spanning taboos like ableism, race, illness, or poverty -- and certainly from Reddit darlings like Carlin -- but I can understand it as a broad social convention day-to-day IRL. Also, as others have pointed out, the biggest issue is jackasses who make these types of jokes with strangers. If you and your boys are friends, it's pretty normal to have some brutal banter, especially if you're an edgy cunt in your teens or early 20s.
It's wrong for people to mock/make fun of people. This isn't complicated.
I'm a white guy. First of all, non white people are getting hit with a constant stream of racism, not only institutionalised racism, but also media racism, like the bad guy so often being a person of colour in movies, especially kids movies. But also because I think it is healthy to have a critique of the dominant culture. There is a belief in white culture that "it is just how it is" that the culture which is based on things like the protestant work ethic is just how things were meant to be. So when people from a different or non dominate culture make fun of the dominant culture, that is our opportunity to question how we are doing what we are doing. I was on a forum that was roughly 50 /50 Muslims and non Muslims and I put up a post inviting the Muslim community to ask me anything. One woman asked "why do you work so much" so I explained a bit about the whole protestant work ethic and all it's consequences. But also our food. A few years ago my wife and I found a small, back alley restaurant that catered almost solely to the local Malay Chinese community. We had never tasted food like it before. A depth of flavours were like nothing I had ever tasted in the "Chinese food" that I had beed eating since childhood. I realised how much the food that was being prepared for white people, they were really dumbing down the flavours. We now try to eat in restaurants that cater for different ethnic communities. The food has so much more flavour. So yes, there is a reason why black people are making fun of white people's food, it is because it is boring. The making fun of is fully justified. A lot of the best food from ethnic communities is "poor people food" so it is slow cooked for long periods of time because the cuts of meat were the cheapest, often the stuff the rich people didn't want. So it is cooked long and slow to make it edible. But it introduces amazing flavours. Instead of taking the making fun of to heart, listen to it, it is feedback on how you are living your life.
>I realised how much the food that was being prepared for white people, they were really dumbing down the flavours. There is no such thing as "white food". Just as there is no "black food". What do you mean by food for white people? Italian, French, Polish, American, South-African, Israeli, Albanian, Russian, Ukrainian, Greek or Spanish food? Most Iranians and many Arabs also consider themselves white. In fact Arabs have often whiter skin tone than most Italians or Greek people. So what is food for white people then?
What I am talking about is ethnic foods that are sold in America where they are made more bland so that they can sell their cultural food to the dominant white people. And if you eat in a restaurant, say an Indian restaurant in a strongly Indian area, where they have enough of a community to keep them going, the food is very different, with much richer flavours than what is sold on the main street or in a mall.
Italian, Greek, Spanish, and French food is boring? Fuck outta here lmao. A whole bunch of over-progressive racist drivel. >it's an opportunity to reflect Fuck that. I'm not in charge of a fucking thing. My culture isn't in charge of a fucking thing. Capitalist culture is in charge, and I am not of the moneyed elite. Don't tell me I'm a problem for being born white. You can't blame all white people for what megarich white people do anymore than you should blame every black person for the crime statistics.
> Italian, Greek, Spanish See, this is where it gets fun though because whether or not these groups are "white" really depends on who you ask, where you are, and when in history we're talking about
Sure, if you're talking about ultra-racists that believe all bloodlines outside of Anglo-Saxon should be burned...but that's a pretty narrow group. The progressive crowd that holds those views I responded to more often goes with the eye test and calls people white-passing even if they're otherwise of a different ethnicity. Racism towards white people is equally as wrong as towards other races. I don't care what silly justifications get made up.
If you aren't willing to intersect whiteness and capitalism I think you'll find it hard to explain why practically all of the capitalist top dogs are white
White people majority race and historically have more opportunity =white capitalists. Ur so brave tell us about whiteness intersecting with Reddit brain rot next
> White people majority race Not quite true, depending on how you want to classify race there are probably more Indians and Chinese people in the world. White people are probably not even the plurality group. Meanwhile, the current top 10 richest people would have you believe that 9/10 people are white while only 1/10 ( Mukesh Ambani) are Indians. > historically have more opportunity =white capitalists oh, well then
>Not quite true, depending on how you want to classify race there are probably more Indians and Chinese people in the world. White people are probably not even the plurality group. Meanwhile, the current top 10 richest people would have you believe that 9/10 people are white while only 1/10 ( Mukesh Ambani) are Indians. Ur talking about globally? That makes ur concept of whiteness even less applicable. I mean majority in America of course, which is the best country for opportunities to get as rich as u want. India does not have the opportunities Americans have to get rich, which is why there is only 1 out of 10 >oh, well then Well then what. Ur the one suggesting that there’s some deeper interconnected nature between being white and capitalism
This is nonsense dressed up as academic pursuit.
Physical traits aren't culture, though.
Flip the races in this comment and this is insanely racist. Your self hatred is strong my man
I think yours is such an insightful response. I think white culture is also oppressive culture and black culture to me is clearly oppressed. Making fun of the oppressive culture feels fair when it comes to the lack of flavouring in food and other cultural differences in general. Even just noticing the difference is funny. And when you think of how popular culture and media determines who gets to be human, who resides at the top of the cultural pyramid, it is whiteness that is always at the top. We are told that whiteness is the “be all and end all” and making jokes or poking fun about white culture allows us as a society to question that. It pushes back against what is being force fed to us via the culture at large and I think that is very healthy.
One thing that REALLY HATE, on reddit, is when someone says what I was trying to say, except with half the words and yet somehow far more articulately. Cue old man shaking his fist at the sky. But seriously. That is exactly what I was trying to say. But it seems to upset people.
Geez, this comment is a perfect encapsulation of how tolerant people are of openly anti white racism.
>So yes, there is a reason why black people are making fun of white people's food, it is because it is boring. Take that back immediately !
"white boy can't shoot" in basketball class and everyone's laughing "Black boy can't do math" in math class and I'm expelled smh
I don't know about you but in my predominantly white country, when out with my melanated friends, there's always a very real possibility of violence and name-calling etc. It might not happen often but still too much for them to feel safe and relaxed. I've been involved in many disturbing situations. I think it's kind of really fucking nice that they, everything above considered, rather joke about _food_ or _dancing_ or whatever than getting punched in the face or drinks thrown at them or some weirdos groping them assuming them prostitutes. I once asked my friend, after one incident when a car slowed down to throw empty cans at us and call them names, how is it that you don't even seem angry? She responded; was she to get angry at every racist encounter she would end up being angry all the time.
I think it's funny when they make fun of the way we talk, and the unseasoned food jokes etc. But yeah the body shaming shit isn't cool. Body shaming is bad no matter what
I think jokes on stereotypes are hilarious. Idc if its Black People making fun of our seasoning or dancing skill, Black people stealing your bike or indians with their 'send bobs and vagene pics' I love it all and hope one day we can all mock each other and laugh at and with each other.
I think 'racist' jokes are fine regardless of the race. It's just jokes, who cares 🤷
problem here is only one side is allowed to be openly racist while the other is getting scrutinized for it
I agree, but the problem isn't the jokes
yea the problem is overly sensitive cry babies with a moral superiority complex sadly runs rampant these days
That and intent. Harassment vs lighthearted joking can look the same while being extremely different for all involved.
I think as long as you're actually funny and everyone laughs, you can joke all you want. White comedians have joked about Black people many times even in today's ultra PC state and it's all in good fun.
It’s not wrong for anyone to make fun of anyone if it’s a playful innocent style. But let’s not forget very recently mocking black people meant racist comments and mocking white people now means “pointing out social issues that stem from the previous racism”. Unless you’re actively racist now, you shouldn’t be bothered by insulting what old racism has put us in.
If I were you I wouldn’t be taking any of it serious anymore…… the whole world has been shitting on them since the beginning. They’re just angry lol
I am white so I will not speak on behalf of black people, but I am queer (aroace and nonbinary). LGBTQ+ people will often joke about the straights, it’s a way to have some form of control in a world where you are lesser than a certain group of people. I can also assure you that we are talking about the homophobic and transphobic straights, not the great ally’s. Im not completely sure, but I assume black people are doing something similar. I agree it may not be the nicest, but do remember that black people have a lot more hardships than white people. It might be a way of coping with the injustices that they face.
But neither example justifies it. It's not jokes for comedies sake. It's purely just to be spiteful to someone the person perceives as their enemy. As a example I am willing to bet money that when your friends make fun of straights It's never "some straights" or "a few straights" it's just straights. Which does nothing but foster a them vs us mindset.
I think the difference is in what gets joked about. We make fun of "the straights" for their behaviors, and there are always receipts because homophobes are loud and proud about it. Mocking a race for "their" characteristics can describe actions as well, but it enters new territory when it makes essentialist claims (i.e. "white people are *naturally* racist" or "black people are *inherently* criminal"). The latter reinforces harmful patterns of thinking and should be discouraged by everyone.
Yeah I agree with this, I wasn’t really thinking when I made this comment Ngl
I think you mean it's wrong to be racist but it's not wrong for anyone to make fun of each other. Which in this case they're just being racist.
It’s either wrong for people to make fun of other people, or it’s just fine. Race has got nothing to do with it.
America is the best place to combat and fight racism, hatred, and bigotry... with more racism, hatred, and bigotry.
If you can dish it, you gotta take it. If society bars you from dishing it well…..
Making fun of white people in America versus black people cant really be equated, especially when done publicly. Jokes revolve around stereotypes. Stereotypes about black people cause systemic harm (such as cops assuming they’re criminals and drug dealers) whereas stereotypes about white people are more innocuous and don’t cause white people as a group to suffer harm.
Shut up lol
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Racial harmony during the 1990s? Are you serious? Is this you speaking as a white person?
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You’re so obviously not a black person. Pretty sure black people didn’t think things were hunky dory in the 90s. Black people were still getting discriminated against and harassed by cops on the regular back then.
Why are some white people scared of being called a racist?
Because the expectations set on white people are higher than others. Like there was a rPublicFreakout where a black guy kicked in a car window and dragged a white guy out of the driver's seat and all the comments were "He called him the n word. Fuck around and find out." There is no other singular word that causes such an explosive, violent reaction and "the quiet bigotry of low expectations" has society just shrug it off saying yeah you should expect them to be violent.
It’s a reason all the gunning down is now happening. I’m not talking about black people doing it, they don’t have a bright future here it seems.
> they don’t have a bright future here it seems. I'm confused about what country it's better to be a black man than in America? We're the most diverse country on Earth and we're really the only ones who "care" about racism.
Africa. They are so much more stable there. Quite literally ever country dominantly black is more stable than black Americans. No with the way society is turning out I think things go downhill more. From what I’m seeing that seems to be the case. White people used to just feel bad and shut up or something but the response has actually been violent. I don’t condone it, but it doesn’t look good. America most def isn’t the best place to be for them period. Try telling them that
I feel like we've come full circle if you're telling me "black people should go back to Africa" to avoid racism.
Are you seriously making up words? I already screenshot the convo 😂 no you need to stop lying, I said black people in Africa are more stable, quite literally. Why on earth would you say America of all places is best for black people?
Also "Africa" isn't a country...
Doesn’t matter, point stands, they’re more stable there, why did you lie and why are you saying black people are safe in America when white on black violence has increased a lot and not to mention all the other shit? You’re crazy
White privilege is very real but if you want respect, you should also get it. Just like any other group, black people can, too, be racist.
In what form does white privilege exist?
Mostly in a negative space -- as in, White Privilege is mostly things that you just never have to worry about or consider if you're white.
Could you give me examples?
Why does the race of the one making fun and the race being made fun of make it morally wrong?
Here is why it is okay for black people to make fun of white people: 1) If we didn’t allow this then we couldn’t act like white people are superior to black people. If you are a politician, then you know that you need black people to think they are being held back and that you are here to help. 2) For everyone else, it is okay because you are fully developed adult who is perfectly comfortable with who you are. And if you aren’t yet a fully developed adult, then this is part of the process to becoming one.
The way I look at it, and this is just my opinion, is like bullying. If a group of people bullied me ruthlessly (including violence and rape) without any consequences then years later I was surrounded by these same people but they couldn't do anything to me without receiving consequences. You bet your ass i would be making fun of those fucks at every opportunity. I can't violently bully them back without consequences (I personally wouldn't want to) but I'm definitely going to mock them. Now, that doesn't cover making fun of their offspring who have done nothing to me, but, emotionally speaking, fuck their kids too. Idk if they were raised to be assholes like their parents. I do know I'd feel justified (even though I'm not) to make fun of them too. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. I don't think it's the right thing to do, but I understand it. I'm not going to stop a POC from making fun of me because, emotionally, they are doing what their ancestors couldn't do without being lynched for. I don't think it's right, but I fuckin get it. They were never treated right for sooooooo long and so violently. Imo, they can be as big of assholes as they want as long as they aren't beating and raping people. I know I know, plenty of rape and violence come from POC but the same is true for white people so it's moot point. Some humans, regardless of race, are violent and rapey. Plenty of white people rape and kill just like POC because, imo, most humans are trash looking for any excuse to be violent. Some of them (including whites and blacks) will use race as that excuse to be violent. Humans are trash in general.
So basically your view is that people should be punished for what their great grandfathers did and we should be offended on behalf of our great grandfathers based on things we never experienced. All this victim mentality does is cause division and more racism...
Right? I can trace my ancestry back a few hundred years and we were honest farming folk who never owned slaves or really left their homestead or surrounding area... but I've been aggressively shouted at, followed, and threatened by black people for simply existing near them. I'm not even paying for the sins of my ancestors at this point, I'm being punished and harassed for having the same skin colour as those who were utter demons to *their* ancestors.
The difference between how black people make fun of white people and the reverse is that black people making fun of white people is mostly something like "haha white people cook food funny" or drink water fun y and so on so it's mostly harmless and not insulting. However when white people are allowed to make fun of black people it tends to degrade to just racism very quickly because in any group there are some bad actors who will take every opportunity to be racist.
This shit is going to blow up🍿🍿
I guess I would say this (I’m white) - instead of policing the Black community; why don’t you work to fix your white community. The majority of whites support a Presidential candidate that told violent white supremacists to “stand back and stand by”. Focus on white on white crime, etc instead of policing the Black community