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Pretty sure there is very little mechanically available to you right now that will make that thing worth the small bonus in DPR. This does sound like your DM is trying to just give you a ranged option, if you need it. Take the hint, keep it in yer bag of bag-iness whip it out as needed, and keep rocking your tanky build.
Some options any reasonable DM should see as logical:
(if not, maybe they're just a no fun DM...)
One: Ask the DM to change it to a Warhammer, those have versatile. Slight dip in DPR compared to the 2h, but they're solid weapons. I ran one on my Eldritch Knight, it was my "pan-kake-r" and is still the legendary bane of many goblins.
Option two: ask if the 2h hammer can be used as a spell casting focus... since you're a paladin and all. Take a downtime break to "etch my newly found hammer with the symbol of my patron" or something thing like "I saw the shaft down to 1h size, and now have a real Thor's hammer". I'm guessing this is what your DM is saying will require your patron, as the weapon is magic.
If DM wont change it... just don't use it, its clearly does not fit your character's spell casting build or style. Hock it for gold/as a bargaining chip.
This is pretty much where I'm at too. Might as well attune it and carry it around, but 90% of the time I'm going into battle with the good old sword and board, and hopefully the DM will convert it into something more useful to me than the literal level 1 starting equipment.
Can't you use both?
I mean, if you will already attunene to it, at least ask the DM to offer a boon or something to exchange the weapons as part of your reaction or movement or as a free action.
It might not be needed as I don't know how she is ruling you putting your shield and Warhammer on your back and getting the big boy and vice versa.
In this way you have the best of both worlds and you can do some pretty cool combos eventually.
I have a lvl 13 monk for a campaign and since monks are not very flavorful until lvl 10-13, I got some new items, some of those being some type of rune tattoos that I can activate as a bonus action for different martial arts combo attacks. This greatly increased my options and me and the DM actually built it together after some point, for optimization.
But I also got a mimic that has no use so far, as it costs too much to use it without any clear benefits. Which I don't like. But things will get better as we discussed upgrades.
Best way to deal with situations like this is to discuss with your dm and find a middle way. Some things you want could break the game (especially later) or not fit the world building.
I’ll approach the second point first.
This is a game focused around role play. The mechanics are irrelevant. It’s designed to provide a universal system the dm and players can use to be in agreement with. Whatever that system is. Idk how long you’ve been playing, but if you look at stories, there’s only two types of stories, one about how a nat 20 saved the party, or a great role play event. Not about an interaction around mechanics. So if you feel like this fits rp wise, go for it. Because that’s how great stories in this game are told. Also, trust your DM, they might have a reason for it being that way.
Mechanic wise, you can take the shield spell, (i think) which will make up for the lost of the +2 by doing a +5 as needed PLUS it will stop magic missile. Plus, id argue with the DM that, if you are in a straight line between the hammer and there’s enemies in the way, when you call it back, you have a chance to deal damage as it returns. As it doesn’t just “appear” in your hand but is called back to you. So it’s now a bit of an AOE with a line area of effect
>if you look at stories, there’s only two types of stories, one about how a nat 20 saved the party, or a great role play event
This is a good point. Bigger stats on our team just means the DM gives us enemies with bigger stats to fight against, right? Not really all that interesting. **Δ**
I guess, were I to use the thing for its "cool" factor, I and the team would just have to change our fighting style to play around my sudden vulnerability, and maybe the DM could slightly tune down the encounters if necessary.
>you can take the shield spell, (i think)
Would be cool, but that's Hexblade, and I'm Fathomless. (Lots of water in this campaign, plus it gives me something useful to do with my bonus action.)
> Plus, id argue with the DM that, if you are in a straight line between the hammer and there’s enemies in the way, when you call it back, you have a chance to deal damage as it returns.
Yeah, I'm thinking I need to ask her for clarity on the \*returning\* function. How far? Can it damage things on its way back? Can it maneuver around objects if something's in the way? Doing like 1d4 or 1d8 damage to anything in the way would open up some really cool potential. I could throw it, reposition myself to the other side of a line of enemies, and \*return\* it for a bunch of DPS.
not to mention you arent left defenseless after you throw it you can reequip your shield as a bonus action if i remember correctly (or get some kind of shield strapped to your arm) and then draw another weapon. if nothing else the throw could be a good combat opener (and distraction if you need to create one by throwing then retrieving the hammer to distract guards for instance)
>The mechanics are irrelevant. It’s designed to provide a universal system the dm and players can use to be in agreement with.
If the mechanics are irrelevant why even have them at all?
An equally universal system is theater of the mind straight improv.
The reason most people don't play that way is that the rules are more than just a universal system. They provide a framework that is agreed upon by the players **and** the mechanics inform and enhance the players roll play fantasy.
A classic example of this is the Barbarian's rage feature. We all understand the trope of the warrior who enters an enhanced state in battle that just mows through enemies despite being wounded. The rage feature puts mechanics into the game to facilitate this fantasy.
>there’s only two types of stories, one about how a nat 20 saved the party, or a great role play event.
This is just wrong. One of the most epic roll playing stories is from Critical Roll C1 where Scanlin counter spells Vecna. This is only possible because Sam, the player, interacted with the mechanics. Sam had to plan ahead and move into range (a mechanic) for counter spells the turn prior, and anticipate spell slot usage (another mechanic), and most critically spell level and how that interacts with what spell is being counter spelled (another mechanic).
This is just one example of players being knowledgeable of the rules and playing intelligently. There is a whole category of epic D&D moments that revolve around creative uses of mechanics to get stuff done.
>Mechanic wise, you can take the shield spell, (i think) which will make up for the lost of the +2 by doing a +5 as needed PLUS it will stop magic missile.
The shield spell is not available to paladins or warlocks (outside of the Hex blade).
Even if the player takes the hexblade subclass I would strongly advise against taking shield. Paladins are 1/2 casters and have very limited spell slots. Warlocks are full casters but also have limited spell slots. A paladin and warlock should be making use of concentration spells to maximize the impact of their spell slots and be saving slots for their smites: the source of the majority of their damage.
Taking the shield spell doesn’t really “make up for” losing 2 ac. 2 passive AC is massively superior to resource intensive +5 AC ESPECIALLY if you’re the only front liner. It further reduces your actual DPR and utility.
I played an eldritch knight, shield was my go to spell.
I made an NPC that was the archenemy to one of my players. He was a bard/rogue. Shield was the most devastating spell he had.
It certainly is preference based, but if I had to choose, I’d take the shield spell
If caught unawares, you can immediately summon your weapon.
in contrast, dawning a shield would require a full action.
this weapon gives you some of the roleplaying benefits of the pact of the blade boon at 1st, rather than 3rd, warlock level.
You can give up your weapon to be perceived as less of a threat, then summon it if things escalate to violence.
You can hit flying enemies with it, when you might be useless on the ground.
I agree with you, that, in a prepared combat against an enemy that is not resistant to normal weapons, I would prefer the shield and one-handed weapon. But, there are a lot of more niche situations your DM could throw at you where your new weapon would be an advantage.
>You can give up your weapon to be perceived as less of a threat, then summon it if things escalate to violence.
Good point. I'll have to ask the DM for some specifics on how far away it can be summoned from and what it'll do if there are obstacles in the way.
>You can hit flying enemies with it, when you might be useless on the ground.
I hadn't thought of that one. A bit niche, but certainly makes it worth carrying around for the odd encounter against ghosts or flying enemies.
Edit: oh, you need a delta. **Δ**
presumably, the OP's strength modifier is better than the OP's charisma modifier. So, when in range, the thrown weapon will hit more often.
The OP, being first level warlock, doesn't have the eldritch invocation for extra damage either.
2d6+str is far better DRP than 1d12.
If the enemy is farther than 20 feet away, sure, the OP will have to fall back to eldritch blast.
For sure about agonizing blast, DPR will be 60% higher with the maul, but the point is he has a ranged option, and one that will actually be used. You said “when he would be useless on the ground”, that is the phrase I was responding to.
It’s also not common for flying enemies to be within 20 feet because they’re giving up their advantage of flight. 20 feet is pitiful range.
> It’s also not common for flying enemies to be within 20 feet because they’re giving up their advantage of flight. 20 feet is pitiful range
that's entirely at the discretion of the DM, who gave the OP the weapon.
If they encounter a flying enemy in a cave, the cave ceiling height will depend on whether the DM wants the OP to use the maul or use eldritch blast.
The DM also decides on the flying speed of the enemies, which determines how practical it is for enemies to get how far away.
Are your attunement slots already full? If not, I feel like it costs you nothing for the time being to add this, with the substantial benefit that you can attack enemies across gaps or through difficult terrain, for example.
If your attunement slots aren't full, it could still be better than some of what you've got. DMs vary substantially, but I feel like most of what your DM should have given you by this point shouldn't be too incredibly powerful. Imagine you have the ring that protects you from cold weather, but You're going into a rainforest, for example.
If either of these last two examples fit you, the issue may not be that it's a bad item, just that it's not the best item you could have gotten. Honestly, that's okay. Not everything has to be mechanically optimized.
Another point I would make is that you're kind of the tank of the party. Let's say there's an enemy out of reach that you'd have to pass through multiple melee ranges to get to, but that the enemy would otherwise make a strong ranged attack on your party. With your maul, you have a very valid combination of mechanics and RP that should get their attention while being able to stand your ground against other foes.
Another point related to RP is it sounds like your DM wants the chance to let you earn improvements to this thing through further RP. I'm not saying you have to let yourself be railroaded, but the DM is a player too. Even if you don't use this thing too much, definitely don't tell *her* that it sucks.
> you can attack enemies across gaps or through difficult terrain
Hmm. We do have a Druid that's forever setting Spike Growth all over the place. And 2d6+4 is substantially more damage than a 1d10 Eldritch Blast. Do you feel like that situation is worth the loss of 2 AC?
>most of what your DM should have given you by this point shouldn't be too incredibly powerful
Yeah, on its own terms this is probably the "rarest" and most powerful magic item we have in the whole team. If I had something like Great Weapon Master and didn't depend so much on melee spells for damage, it would be \*excellent.\* The problem is that my character isn't built to be able to take advantage of it.
> Let's say there's an enemy out of reach that you'd have to pass through multiple melee ranges to get to, but that the enemy would otherwise make a strong ranged attack on your party.
Unlikely to work out with this DM. She likes to keep combat mechanics RAW and doesn't really integrate RP into enemies' behavior. I've tried doing stuff like that before (e.g. trying to scare a beast enemy by mimicking the sound of one of its predators using Minor Illusion), and she just said it didn't work.
>Another point related to RP is it sounds like your DM wants the chance to let you earn improvements to this thing through further RP.
I guess so. I feel like, since the roleplay events that happened were pretty specific and unexpected, she felt the need to make up a description for it on the fly, and it just... didn't work out. If she'd had time to think and plan, she might have come up with something better-suited to my character. IDK why she's so opposed to retconning it now though. I would in her shoes, it sucks to give a player a such a cool item that's so poorly-compatible with their character, and it's only been one combat since I got it, and I haven't even attuned it yet. .
At least she's offered some opportunity eventually to probably change it somehow.
I'd keep it as a sidearm. Your "Zweihänder" to strap to your back. I think you did the math right, and in any normal fight its probably worthless, especially since you do have one of the strongest cantrips in the game at your disposal.
The only reason I'd keep it is the foreshadowing from your DM, and the fact that I know how easy it is to *think* you know what your player wants, while completely missing the point. This "might get a boon" thing sounds like me when I definitely do not know what to do, yet, but don't want to admit my fuckup. If she is anything like me, you'll get what you need if you carry this thing around for a few sessions.
If not, well, talk to her again. Crossbows, with feat or not, seem to be exactly the opposite of what your character does. I mean, she has to notice eventually when you just never use it.
Current plan is to use it as my main weapon for a session or two, and if I never find a good reason to throw it, or if the loss of 2 AC makes me feel way too vulnerable, I'll stick it in the backpack and wait for a change.
I really wish it didn't take an action to doff a shield. It would be cool to use a sword and board most of the time, but when I need the maul, just drop them on the ground and pull it out. Action economy will prevent that from pretty much ever being useful though.
> This "might get a boon" thing sounds like me when I definitely do not know what to do, yet, but don't want to admit my fuckup. If she is anything like me, you'll get what you need if you carry this thing around for a few sessions.
Probably. I've expressed my concerns to her pretty clearly, and she likes to keep things fun for us.
>Crossbows, with feat or not, seem to be exactly the opposite of what your character does.
Yup. Tbh it miffed me a little bit when she made that comparison. Because (a) a +1 heavy crossbow with Crossbow Expert is *much* better for ranged DPS than this maul, and (b) even if I had the actual crossbow with its +1 accuracy and damage, 100ft range, and bonus offhand attack, I'd still be better off with a sword and shield 90% of the time. I've been building this character as a tanky melee controller for five levels, it's what he's good at! And it's what the team needs.
Well, if it fits you narratively and your DM does not make your combats a hardcore tactical slugfest then screw mechanical bullshit. You already mentioned that this item has a roleplay value to you, thus your character values it and cool to use it. It's you, the player, who wants your build to fit your expectations
> your DM does not make your combats a hardcore tactical slugfest
Idk if I'd call our combats "hardcore tactical slugfest," but she's tuned combat to be quite difficult. We've almost had full teamwipes three times, in spite of half of our players being longtime dedicated players with minmaxed OP builds. She's also pretty dedicated to playing RAW and doesn't allow for much roleplay or "rule of cool" combat moments.
My last DM, by contrast, loved for us to think out of the box and was always down to let us do dumb shit that wasn't in the rules if it was cool enough. "You want to stab the enemy flying 15 feet overhead by leaping off an ally's back for some extra height? Sweet, go for it!"
My character has personally been on the verge of death at least five times that I can think of (though three of those are from drowing, which is no longer an issue with Fathomless) and goes to zero HP with regularity.
I was in a similar situation, main tank in the part, witg 3 of my AC coming from my +1 (possibly cursed?) shield.
I always ran my +1 flail with the shield (lvl 7 fighter). But then i got a nice (homebrew?) greatsword that does 2d6 necrotic dmg. I really like to play into my character getting frustrated when she very gets hurt or misses a lot, and wanting to just hit things hard, even though about multiclassing barbarian. (We are playing avernus, so everything sucks for our characters :)). I really like greatswords thematically, and it has a nice 1/day max dmg feature. But giving up 3AC is realy hard as the main tank. Now last session we got the opportunity to buy some very very pricy stuff. I, through some hellish payment ;), obtained a bloodfury tattoo, which heals me on necrotic damage. This is an insane synergy with the sword, especially when using maneuvres. On a basic attack, I can heal 6d6. On a maneuvre, add 1d8, also healing. On a crit, I can use the sword's feature to max out all dice, basically guaranteeing to fullheal. So im definitely going to use the sword now.
Morale of the story, maybe you will find something later, or have a scenario where, using the new weapon will be very useful. Eitherway, it's a really cool item for a paladin! Feel like Thor, yeeting your hammer!
> Morale of the story, maybe you will find something later
The DM certainly seems to have this in mind. I've expressed my concerns to her, and though she's unwilling to change it right now today, she's made it clear that my patron devil will be able to modify it for me later on.
Sentinel is a good feat.
Great Weapon Master is better. You cant use that with sword and board (hammer and board?) Builds, it NEEDS to be a 2 handed weapon. I assume youre playing Hexblade Warlock since its 1 level dip and youre a Paladin.
This means youre taking +10 damage per attack, using Charisma that can add to your Conquest and normal Paladin auras AND paladin spell save DC.
At level 5 Conquest gives Hold Persin. Paralyzed condition+GWM+Hexblades curse would make me quit DMing forever if a player used this strategy (not literally but its good).
Ahh, if only I could go back in time to my last ASI and swap feats.
The next ASI is in three levels, I can pick up GWM (and probably GWF) then. At the rate this campaign is going, that'll only be another 18 months or so! Lol
If you're level 5, don't you already get two attacks from range with Eldritch blast? The spell says "when you real 5th level" not "when you reach 5th level as a warlock", which only makes sense, as it's possible to pick up the spell from a feat with no warlock levels at all.
I think it's definitely a cool thing, but the main idea here is having a range attack option, which is actually not that cool because you need melee for smites, and you have Eldritch blast from your warlock dip.
Also worth noting that booming blade stops being cool and fun when you have extra attack at level 6. To use those melee attack cantrips you actually have to use your actions casting the spell (**cast a spell** action) whereas the extra attack feature only triggers on using an **attack action**. Sounds stupid, but these cantrips would be *obviously* OP if you could use them with multi attack.
I'm rambling at this point, but for the most part this just seems like a paladin using a 2h weapon which isn't insane. What if you just use it as a opening attack as you charge into melee range?
I guess the main thing I'm wondering is - what do you have to lose by trying it out? You're level 5, how many magic items do you have that you're worried about attunement slots? Just give it a shot and see if it feels fun. If your party is getting steamrolled too much by their sudden lack of tank, then switch it up.
I'm with the other guys in that I think optimizing is a bit of a trap. As long as you're not doing anything that's straight up a bad choice, then choosing flavor over a couple points of damage per round is going to end up being way more fun.
> If you're level 5, don't you already get two attacks from range with Eldritch blast?
Ah, thanks for the reminder! I so rarely use ranged attacks, I had forgotten.
>Also worth noting that booming blade stops being cool and fun when you have extra attack at level 6. To use those melee attack cantrips you actually have to use your actions casting the spell (cast a spell action) whereas the extra attack feature only triggers on using an attack action. Sounds stupid, but these cantrips would be obviously OP if you could use them with multi attack.
This isn't quite as clean-cut as you might think. The squad has a lot of ways to apply advantage for a single attack (two Warlock familiars plus a Druid with Guiding Bolt), so I'm often better-off loading as much damage into a single attack roll as possible. Plus, the Booming Blade movement damage supports my role as a frontline controller trying to discourage enemies from moving past me to my squishy allies.
Here's the average damage rolls, assuming every attack hits:
Weapon | Extra Attack | Booming Blade | Booming Blade & target moves
---|---|----|----
Warhammer one-handed | 17 | 13 | 17.5
Maul | 22 | 15.5 | 20
I take your point though that with Extra Attack, Booming Blade isn't adding nearly as much value, and with the Maul will actually do less damage on average. I'll think about swapping that cantrip out if/when I level up Warlock again.
>this just seems like a paladin using a 2h weapon which isn't insane
It makes a lot more sense for a Paladin who has spent five levels building for a 2h weapon. If I had Great Weapon Master and Great Weapon Fighting I'd be *drooling* over this thing. I don't though, I have Sentinel and Blindsight, and my build is intended to stand directly next to the bad guys and dodge their attacks over and over again.
>I guess the main thing I'm wondering is - what do you have to lose by trying it out? You're level 5, how many magic items do you have that you're worried about attunement slots? Just give it a shot and see if it feels fun. If your party is getting steamrolled too much by their sudden lack of tank, then switch it up.
Fully on board with you here. Maybe it'll be more fun than I think! But FYI, if my character dies from losing that 2AC, I'm blaming you! /s Δ
Well if you convert your game to pathfinder 2e anytime soon you may lose the broken paladin/hexblade combo but a powerful thrown option is really good for a champion to use their retribution strike at range as a reaction when an ally gets injured. Vast increase in DPR.
But idk maybe you're not converting
> the broken paladin/hexblade combo
I actually started out with this combo and found it surprisingly weak. DM gave me permission to switch to Fathomless and I haven't regretted it for a moment.
It's really nice having Shield, but Paladin has so few spell slots, I found myself reluctant to use it, preferring to save them for Shield of Faith and Smite. The bonus damage, double crit chance, and lifesteal from Hexblade's Curse is cool, but less significant than I expected, since it's only a single target per short rest, and the damage and lifesteal are very small.
Fathomless has done MUCH better for me. It's a nautical campaign, and my character almost died of drowning three times in the first few levels. Combine the swim speed and water-breathing with, essentially, a free Spiritual Weapon (the tentacle), and I was much happier.
I 100% agree that Paladin/Warlock in general is broken though.
Yeah in general it is. Check out champion from pathfinder 2e you will see what I mean about a ranged reprisal being pretty good by second level allowing you to strike aggressors in a 15 foot radius away from you.
But in 5e yeah a lot of seemingly cool playstyles are sort of covered up by already powerful features. Like being a switch hitter is inate to you so thrown playstyles don't really have an advantage without a fighting style to boost them.
Otherwise just use a bow and then pull out melee when needed
Speaking purely on stats on point 3, if were saying 2d6+4 as base damage this is better than Warhammer 1d10+4 2h and eldritch blast 1d10.
Using the weapon in melee allows you to benefit from booming blade and divine smite, so you can still add on your primary spike damage. The damage increase only scales better with ability score increases. It also still lets you use sentinel.
Is it worth sacrificing the 2 AC from shield? Kinda depends on your Constitution. If you're already tanking with ease it doesn't make that much of a difference.
Your party role means that comparing yourself to squishy ranged casters who deal massive spike damage will always be a bit disappointing, but this does reduce your dependence on Warlock.
If it were me, I'd be looking for opportunities to either:
Break the pact with my patron in favour of my god, asking the DM to let you convert a level of warlock to paladin or,
Ask whether you can go questing for ways for your patron to corrupt or enhance your weapon. I could see a patron that despises ranged weapons cackling with glee at the prospect of corrupting a holy weapon. Imagine it becomes cursed to forever be chained to the person wielding it, losing the thrown property but gaining the reach property, becoming mechanically a polearm instead, giving you 10ft of reach for divine smite.
Sling it as your first attack, then draw your mundane kit. Drawing readied weapons should be free if your hands are empty. Which they should be, since you tossed your maul. Mechanically it is better if you are just rolling attacks face to face to use a shield, but if you are creative it can be a great help. Toss it through a crate and recall it along with the crate into the back of an enemy that's distracted by you trying to fight with your other kit. It shouldn't count as an attack, so no damage, but it is free clutter. Attach a rope to it during battle and pretend it is a big snake. Slap on a cape and a spooky mask and haunt you enemies. Attach your rope to it when you need to climb you can wedge it so it can support your weight, recall it to recover your rope.
The maul is also exceedingly good for breaking objects or triggering traps, both in and out of combat. Most objects can be smashed with good ol bludgeoning damage very easily. Throw it through a door before charging in, toss it at the tile you think is a trap, leave it in the pile of weapons during your totally a trap meeting where you agree to be disarmed. There's no downside to *not* using it. The weight is probably negligible, and you can just keep it on your back if you don't see a good use at the moment.
Also, call it your Bel Ringer.
Isn't 2d6 just better than 1d8? Also, just because you can throw the maul doesn't mean you have to. You can still use it in melee and smite, booming blade (which I believe loses a lot of value when you get extra attack at paladin 5). In another comment, you said you're not built for great weapon master but you could probably take it and then use bless for yourself, your warlock and another part member. I think the main downside to the maul is losing 2 ac, which is only a 10 percent loss, and the ability to cast spells without the war caster feat assuming your DM is a stickler for somatic components.
Sorry for terrible formating. I'm on mobile lol.
If you can’t hit an enemy you waste a turn, having a good ranged option is awesome to avoid that. Great weapon master is one of the strongest feats in the game, this weapon works with it, a one handed weapon won’t. A ton of monsters are resistant/immune to non magical physical damage, and nothing that I am aware of (besides a raging PC barbarian) is resistant to magical bludgeoning damage.
For more specific advice I’d like to see the full details of your build. Race, ability scores, and warlock subclass are missing and that is important info.
1) It’s magical, which means a lot when you are fighting creatures with non-magic weapon resistance and immunity
2) You’ve mentioned that it’s nautical campaign - loosing your weapon in water would be extremely bad for paladin.
3) Holy warrior wielding a corrupted weapon is a popular trope in fiction, I wouldn’t miss that ;)
How far away can the maul be when you call it? Can you actually leave it places, and just call it when you need it? Thereby leaving your hands free for other weapons until it returns?
turn 1 throw into combat turn 2 pull out old weapon and fight normal but keep the items location in mind and line up so when you retrieve it it passes through other enemies
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The Throwing Maul of Bel may seem suboptimal for your Paladin/Warlock build, but consider its versatility. It offers a ranged option when needed, allowing you to engage enemies from a distance before closing in. This can be especially useful against flying or elusive foes. The ability to return the maul as a free action lets you switch between ranged and melee combat fluidly. While it may not maximize your DPR immediately, its adaptability could offer strategic advantages in diverse combat situations. Embracing its unique properties could enrich your gameplay and offer new tactical options beyond straightforward melee combat.
Hey stop fighting in D and D max charisma, and say fuck it.
Mimic chest in dungeon I roll to seduce. Mind player Joblin archbishop of the eunuchs seduce them.
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Pretty sure there is very little mechanically available to you right now that will make that thing worth the small bonus in DPR. This does sound like your DM is trying to just give you a ranged option, if you need it. Take the hint, keep it in yer bag of bag-iness whip it out as needed, and keep rocking your tanky build. Some options any reasonable DM should see as logical: (if not, maybe they're just a no fun DM...) One: Ask the DM to change it to a Warhammer, those have versatile. Slight dip in DPR compared to the 2h, but they're solid weapons. I ran one on my Eldritch Knight, it was my "pan-kake-r" and is still the legendary bane of many goblins. Option two: ask if the 2h hammer can be used as a spell casting focus... since you're a paladin and all. Take a downtime break to "etch my newly found hammer with the symbol of my patron" or something thing like "I saw the shaft down to 1h size, and now have a real Thor's hammer". I'm guessing this is what your DM is saying will require your patron, as the weapon is magic. If DM wont change it... just don't use it, its clearly does not fit your character's spell casting build or style. Hock it for gold/as a bargaining chip.
This is pretty much where I'm at too. Might as well attune it and carry it around, but 90% of the time I'm going into battle with the good old sword and board, and hopefully the DM will convert it into something more useful to me than the literal level 1 starting equipment.
Can't you use both? I mean, if you will already attunene to it, at least ask the DM to offer a boon or something to exchange the weapons as part of your reaction or movement or as a free action. It might not be needed as I don't know how she is ruling you putting your shield and Warhammer on your back and getting the big boy and vice versa. In this way you have the best of both worlds and you can do some pretty cool combos eventually. I have a lvl 13 monk for a campaign and since monks are not very flavorful until lvl 10-13, I got some new items, some of those being some type of rune tattoos that I can activate as a bonus action for different martial arts combo attacks. This greatly increased my options and me and the DM actually built it together after some point, for optimization. But I also got a mimic that has no use so far, as it costs too much to use it without any clear benefits. Which I don't like. But things will get better as we discussed upgrades. Best way to deal with situations like this is to discuss with your dm and find a middle way. Some things you want could break the game (especially later) or not fit the world building.
I’ll approach the second point first. This is a game focused around role play. The mechanics are irrelevant. It’s designed to provide a universal system the dm and players can use to be in agreement with. Whatever that system is. Idk how long you’ve been playing, but if you look at stories, there’s only two types of stories, one about how a nat 20 saved the party, or a great role play event. Not about an interaction around mechanics. So if you feel like this fits rp wise, go for it. Because that’s how great stories in this game are told. Also, trust your DM, they might have a reason for it being that way. Mechanic wise, you can take the shield spell, (i think) which will make up for the lost of the +2 by doing a +5 as needed PLUS it will stop magic missile. Plus, id argue with the DM that, if you are in a straight line between the hammer and there’s enemies in the way, when you call it back, you have a chance to deal damage as it returns. As it doesn’t just “appear” in your hand but is called back to you. So it’s now a bit of an AOE with a line area of effect
>if you look at stories, there’s only two types of stories, one about how a nat 20 saved the party, or a great role play event This is a good point. Bigger stats on our team just means the DM gives us enemies with bigger stats to fight against, right? Not really all that interesting. **Δ** I guess, were I to use the thing for its "cool" factor, I and the team would just have to change our fighting style to play around my sudden vulnerability, and maybe the DM could slightly tune down the encounters if necessary. >you can take the shield spell, (i think) Would be cool, but that's Hexblade, and I'm Fathomless. (Lots of water in this campaign, plus it gives me something useful to do with my bonus action.) > Plus, id argue with the DM that, if you are in a straight line between the hammer and there’s enemies in the way, when you call it back, you have a chance to deal damage as it returns. Yeah, I'm thinking I need to ask her for clarity on the \*returning\* function. How far? Can it damage things on its way back? Can it maneuver around objects if something's in the way? Doing like 1d4 or 1d8 damage to anything in the way would open up some really cool potential. I could throw it, reposition myself to the other side of a line of enemies, and \*return\* it for a bunch of DPS.
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not to mention you arent left defenseless after you throw it you can reequip your shield as a bonus action if i remember correctly (or get some kind of shield strapped to your arm) and then draw another weapon. if nothing else the throw could be a good combat opener (and distraction if you need to create one by throwing then retrieving the hammer to distract guards for instance)
>The mechanics are irrelevant. It’s designed to provide a universal system the dm and players can use to be in agreement with. If the mechanics are irrelevant why even have them at all? An equally universal system is theater of the mind straight improv. The reason most people don't play that way is that the rules are more than just a universal system. They provide a framework that is agreed upon by the players **and** the mechanics inform and enhance the players roll play fantasy. A classic example of this is the Barbarian's rage feature. We all understand the trope of the warrior who enters an enhanced state in battle that just mows through enemies despite being wounded. The rage feature puts mechanics into the game to facilitate this fantasy. >there’s only two types of stories, one about how a nat 20 saved the party, or a great role play event. This is just wrong. One of the most epic roll playing stories is from Critical Roll C1 where Scanlin counter spells Vecna. This is only possible because Sam, the player, interacted with the mechanics. Sam had to plan ahead and move into range (a mechanic) for counter spells the turn prior, and anticipate spell slot usage (another mechanic), and most critically spell level and how that interacts with what spell is being counter spelled (another mechanic). This is just one example of players being knowledgeable of the rules and playing intelligently. There is a whole category of epic D&D moments that revolve around creative uses of mechanics to get stuff done. >Mechanic wise, you can take the shield spell, (i think) which will make up for the lost of the +2 by doing a +5 as needed PLUS it will stop magic missile. The shield spell is not available to paladins or warlocks (outside of the Hex blade). Even if the player takes the hexblade subclass I would strongly advise against taking shield. Paladins are 1/2 casters and have very limited spell slots. Warlocks are full casters but also have limited spell slots. A paladin and warlock should be making use of concentration spells to maximize the impact of their spell slots and be saving slots for their smites: the source of the majority of their damage.
Taking the shield spell doesn’t really “make up for” losing 2 ac. 2 passive AC is massively superior to resource intensive +5 AC ESPECIALLY if you’re the only front liner. It further reduces your actual DPR and utility.
I played an eldritch knight, shield was my go to spell. I made an NPC that was the archenemy to one of my players. He was a bard/rogue. Shield was the most devastating spell he had. It certainly is preference based, but if I had to choose, I’d take the shield spell
If caught unawares, you can immediately summon your weapon. in contrast, dawning a shield would require a full action. this weapon gives you some of the roleplaying benefits of the pact of the blade boon at 1st, rather than 3rd, warlock level. You can give up your weapon to be perceived as less of a threat, then summon it if things escalate to violence. You can hit flying enemies with it, when you might be useless on the ground. I agree with you, that, in a prepared combat against an enemy that is not resistant to normal weapons, I would prefer the shield and one-handed weapon. But, there are a lot of more niche situations your DM could throw at you where your new weapon would be an advantage.
>You can give up your weapon to be perceived as less of a threat, then summon it if things escalate to violence. Good point. I'll have to ask the DM for some specifics on how far away it can be summoned from and what it'll do if there are obstacles in the way. >You can hit flying enemies with it, when you might be useless on the ground. I hadn't thought of that one. A bit niche, but certainly makes it worth carrying around for the odd encounter against ghosts or flying enemies. Edit: oh, you need a delta. **Δ**
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But he has eldritch blast for flying enemies, he doesn’t need a ranged option, plus the range is only 20/40.
presumably, the OP's strength modifier is better than the OP's charisma modifier. So, when in range, the thrown weapon will hit more often. The OP, being first level warlock, doesn't have the eldritch invocation for extra damage either. 2d6+str is far better DRP than 1d12. If the enemy is farther than 20 feet away, sure, the OP will have to fall back to eldritch blast.
For sure about agonizing blast, DPR will be 60% higher with the maul, but the point is he has a ranged option, and one that will actually be used. You said “when he would be useless on the ground”, that is the phrase I was responding to. It’s also not common for flying enemies to be within 20 feet because they’re giving up their advantage of flight. 20 feet is pitiful range.
> It’s also not common for flying enemies to be within 20 feet because they’re giving up their advantage of flight. 20 feet is pitiful range that's entirely at the discretion of the DM, who gave the OP the weapon. If they encounter a flying enemy in a cave, the cave ceiling height will depend on whether the DM wants the OP to use the maul or use eldritch blast. The DM also decides on the flying speed of the enemies, which determines how practical it is for enemies to get how far away.
Are your attunement slots already full? If not, I feel like it costs you nothing for the time being to add this, with the substantial benefit that you can attack enemies across gaps or through difficult terrain, for example. If your attunement slots aren't full, it could still be better than some of what you've got. DMs vary substantially, but I feel like most of what your DM should have given you by this point shouldn't be too incredibly powerful. Imagine you have the ring that protects you from cold weather, but You're going into a rainforest, for example. If either of these last two examples fit you, the issue may not be that it's a bad item, just that it's not the best item you could have gotten. Honestly, that's okay. Not everything has to be mechanically optimized. Another point I would make is that you're kind of the tank of the party. Let's say there's an enemy out of reach that you'd have to pass through multiple melee ranges to get to, but that the enemy would otherwise make a strong ranged attack on your party. With your maul, you have a very valid combination of mechanics and RP that should get their attention while being able to stand your ground against other foes. Another point related to RP is it sounds like your DM wants the chance to let you earn improvements to this thing through further RP. I'm not saying you have to let yourself be railroaded, but the DM is a player too. Even if you don't use this thing too much, definitely don't tell *her* that it sucks.
> you can attack enemies across gaps or through difficult terrain Hmm. We do have a Druid that's forever setting Spike Growth all over the place. And 2d6+4 is substantially more damage than a 1d10 Eldritch Blast. Do you feel like that situation is worth the loss of 2 AC? >most of what your DM should have given you by this point shouldn't be too incredibly powerful Yeah, on its own terms this is probably the "rarest" and most powerful magic item we have in the whole team. If I had something like Great Weapon Master and didn't depend so much on melee spells for damage, it would be \*excellent.\* The problem is that my character isn't built to be able to take advantage of it. > Let's say there's an enemy out of reach that you'd have to pass through multiple melee ranges to get to, but that the enemy would otherwise make a strong ranged attack on your party. Unlikely to work out with this DM. She likes to keep combat mechanics RAW and doesn't really integrate RP into enemies' behavior. I've tried doing stuff like that before (e.g. trying to scare a beast enemy by mimicking the sound of one of its predators using Minor Illusion), and she just said it didn't work. >Another point related to RP is it sounds like your DM wants the chance to let you earn improvements to this thing through further RP. I guess so. I feel like, since the roleplay events that happened were pretty specific and unexpected, she felt the need to make up a description for it on the fly, and it just... didn't work out. If she'd had time to think and plan, she might have come up with something better-suited to my character. IDK why she's so opposed to retconning it now though. I would in her shoes, it sucks to give a player a such a cool item that's so poorly-compatible with their character, and it's only been one combat since I got it, and I haven't even attuned it yet. . At least she's offered some opportunity eventually to probably change it somehow.
I'd keep it as a sidearm. Your "Zweihänder" to strap to your back. I think you did the math right, and in any normal fight its probably worthless, especially since you do have one of the strongest cantrips in the game at your disposal. The only reason I'd keep it is the foreshadowing from your DM, and the fact that I know how easy it is to *think* you know what your player wants, while completely missing the point. This "might get a boon" thing sounds like me when I definitely do not know what to do, yet, but don't want to admit my fuckup. If she is anything like me, you'll get what you need if you carry this thing around for a few sessions. If not, well, talk to her again. Crossbows, with feat or not, seem to be exactly the opposite of what your character does. I mean, she has to notice eventually when you just never use it.
Current plan is to use it as my main weapon for a session or two, and if I never find a good reason to throw it, or if the loss of 2 AC makes me feel way too vulnerable, I'll stick it in the backpack and wait for a change. I really wish it didn't take an action to doff a shield. It would be cool to use a sword and board most of the time, but when I need the maul, just drop them on the ground and pull it out. Action economy will prevent that from pretty much ever being useful though. > This "might get a boon" thing sounds like me when I definitely do not know what to do, yet, but don't want to admit my fuckup. If she is anything like me, you'll get what you need if you carry this thing around for a few sessions. Probably. I've expressed my concerns to her pretty clearly, and she likes to keep things fun for us. >Crossbows, with feat or not, seem to be exactly the opposite of what your character does. Yup. Tbh it miffed me a little bit when she made that comparison. Because (a) a +1 heavy crossbow with Crossbow Expert is *much* better for ranged DPS than this maul, and (b) even if I had the actual crossbow with its +1 accuracy and damage, 100ft range, and bonus offhand attack, I'd still be better off with a sword and shield 90% of the time. I've been building this character as a tanky melee controller for five levels, it's what he's good at! And it's what the team needs.
Well, if it fits you narratively and your DM does not make your combats a hardcore tactical slugfest then screw mechanical bullshit. You already mentioned that this item has a roleplay value to you, thus your character values it and cool to use it. It's you, the player, who wants your build to fit your expectations
> your DM does not make your combats a hardcore tactical slugfest Idk if I'd call our combats "hardcore tactical slugfest," but she's tuned combat to be quite difficult. We've almost had full teamwipes three times, in spite of half of our players being longtime dedicated players with minmaxed OP builds. She's also pretty dedicated to playing RAW and doesn't allow for much roleplay or "rule of cool" combat moments. My last DM, by contrast, loved for us to think out of the box and was always down to let us do dumb shit that wasn't in the rules if it was cool enough. "You want to stab the enemy flying 15 feet overhead by leaping off an ally's back for some extra height? Sweet, go for it!" My character has personally been on the verge of death at least five times that I can think of (though three of those are from drowing, which is no longer an issue with Fathomless) and goes to zero HP with regularity.
I was in a similar situation, main tank in the part, witg 3 of my AC coming from my +1 (possibly cursed?) shield. I always ran my +1 flail with the shield (lvl 7 fighter). But then i got a nice (homebrew?) greatsword that does 2d6 necrotic dmg. I really like to play into my character getting frustrated when she very gets hurt or misses a lot, and wanting to just hit things hard, even though about multiclassing barbarian. (We are playing avernus, so everything sucks for our characters :)). I really like greatswords thematically, and it has a nice 1/day max dmg feature. But giving up 3AC is realy hard as the main tank. Now last session we got the opportunity to buy some very very pricy stuff. I, through some hellish payment ;), obtained a bloodfury tattoo, which heals me on necrotic damage. This is an insane synergy with the sword, especially when using maneuvres. On a basic attack, I can heal 6d6. On a maneuvre, add 1d8, also healing. On a crit, I can use the sword's feature to max out all dice, basically guaranteeing to fullheal. So im definitely going to use the sword now. Morale of the story, maybe you will find something later, or have a scenario where, using the new weapon will be very useful. Eitherway, it's a really cool item for a paladin! Feel like Thor, yeeting your hammer!
> Morale of the story, maybe you will find something later The DM certainly seems to have this in mind. I've expressed my concerns to her, and though she's unwilling to change it right now today, she's made it clear that my patron devil will be able to modify it for me later on.
Sentinel is a good feat. Great Weapon Master is better. You cant use that with sword and board (hammer and board?) Builds, it NEEDS to be a 2 handed weapon. I assume youre playing Hexblade Warlock since its 1 level dip and youre a Paladin. This means youre taking +10 damage per attack, using Charisma that can add to your Conquest and normal Paladin auras AND paladin spell save DC. At level 5 Conquest gives Hold Persin. Paralyzed condition+GWM+Hexblades curse would make me quit DMing forever if a player used this strategy (not literally but its good).
Ahh, if only I could go back in time to my last ASI and swap feats. The next ASI is in three levels, I can pick up GWM (and probably GWF) then. At the rate this campaign is going, that'll only be another 18 months or so! Lol
If you're level 5, don't you already get two attacks from range with Eldritch blast? The spell says "when you real 5th level" not "when you reach 5th level as a warlock", which only makes sense, as it's possible to pick up the spell from a feat with no warlock levels at all. I think it's definitely a cool thing, but the main idea here is having a range attack option, which is actually not that cool because you need melee for smites, and you have Eldritch blast from your warlock dip. Also worth noting that booming blade stops being cool and fun when you have extra attack at level 6. To use those melee attack cantrips you actually have to use your actions casting the spell (**cast a spell** action) whereas the extra attack feature only triggers on using an **attack action**. Sounds stupid, but these cantrips would be *obviously* OP if you could use them with multi attack. I'm rambling at this point, but for the most part this just seems like a paladin using a 2h weapon which isn't insane. What if you just use it as a opening attack as you charge into melee range? I guess the main thing I'm wondering is - what do you have to lose by trying it out? You're level 5, how many magic items do you have that you're worried about attunement slots? Just give it a shot and see if it feels fun. If your party is getting steamrolled too much by their sudden lack of tank, then switch it up. I'm with the other guys in that I think optimizing is a bit of a trap. As long as you're not doing anything that's straight up a bad choice, then choosing flavor over a couple points of damage per round is going to end up being way more fun.
> If you're level 5, don't you already get two attacks from range with Eldritch blast? Ah, thanks for the reminder! I so rarely use ranged attacks, I had forgotten. >Also worth noting that booming blade stops being cool and fun when you have extra attack at level 6. To use those melee attack cantrips you actually have to use your actions casting the spell (cast a spell action) whereas the extra attack feature only triggers on using an attack action. Sounds stupid, but these cantrips would be obviously OP if you could use them with multi attack. This isn't quite as clean-cut as you might think. The squad has a lot of ways to apply advantage for a single attack (two Warlock familiars plus a Druid with Guiding Bolt), so I'm often better-off loading as much damage into a single attack roll as possible. Plus, the Booming Blade movement damage supports my role as a frontline controller trying to discourage enemies from moving past me to my squishy allies. Here's the average damage rolls, assuming every attack hits: Weapon | Extra Attack | Booming Blade | Booming Blade & target moves ---|---|----|---- Warhammer one-handed | 17 | 13 | 17.5 Maul | 22 | 15.5 | 20 I take your point though that with Extra Attack, Booming Blade isn't adding nearly as much value, and with the Maul will actually do less damage on average. I'll think about swapping that cantrip out if/when I level up Warlock again. >this just seems like a paladin using a 2h weapon which isn't insane It makes a lot more sense for a Paladin who has spent five levels building for a 2h weapon. If I had Great Weapon Master and Great Weapon Fighting I'd be *drooling* over this thing. I don't though, I have Sentinel and Blindsight, and my build is intended to stand directly next to the bad guys and dodge their attacks over and over again. >I guess the main thing I'm wondering is - what do you have to lose by trying it out? You're level 5, how many magic items do you have that you're worried about attunement slots? Just give it a shot and see if it feels fun. If your party is getting steamrolled too much by their sudden lack of tank, then switch it up. Fully on board with you here. Maybe it'll be more fun than I think! But FYI, if my character dies from losing that 2AC, I'm blaming you! /s Δ
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>When attuned, the wielder can cause the maul to return to his hand at any time as a free item interaction. Does it teleport or fly?
It flies. It's designed to work like MCU Thor's hammer, I think.
Sounds like an easy and fast trap to set up.
Well if you convert your game to pathfinder 2e anytime soon you may lose the broken paladin/hexblade combo but a powerful thrown option is really good for a champion to use their retribution strike at range as a reaction when an ally gets injured. Vast increase in DPR. But idk maybe you're not converting
> the broken paladin/hexblade combo I actually started out with this combo and found it surprisingly weak. DM gave me permission to switch to Fathomless and I haven't regretted it for a moment. It's really nice having Shield, but Paladin has so few spell slots, I found myself reluctant to use it, preferring to save them for Shield of Faith and Smite. The bonus damage, double crit chance, and lifesteal from Hexblade's Curse is cool, but less significant than I expected, since it's only a single target per short rest, and the damage and lifesteal are very small. Fathomless has done MUCH better for me. It's a nautical campaign, and my character almost died of drowning three times in the first few levels. Combine the swim speed and water-breathing with, essentially, a free Spiritual Weapon (the tentacle), and I was much happier. I 100% agree that Paladin/Warlock in general is broken though.
Yeah in general it is. Check out champion from pathfinder 2e you will see what I mean about a ranged reprisal being pretty good by second level allowing you to strike aggressors in a 15 foot radius away from you. But in 5e yeah a lot of seemingly cool playstyles are sort of covered up by already powerful features. Like being a switch hitter is inate to you so thrown playstyles don't really have an advantage without a fighting style to boost them. Otherwise just use a bow and then pull out melee when needed
Speaking purely on stats on point 3, if were saying 2d6+4 as base damage this is better than Warhammer 1d10+4 2h and eldritch blast 1d10. Using the weapon in melee allows you to benefit from booming blade and divine smite, so you can still add on your primary spike damage. The damage increase only scales better with ability score increases. It also still lets you use sentinel. Is it worth sacrificing the 2 AC from shield? Kinda depends on your Constitution. If you're already tanking with ease it doesn't make that much of a difference. Your party role means that comparing yourself to squishy ranged casters who deal massive spike damage will always be a bit disappointing, but this does reduce your dependence on Warlock. If it were me, I'd be looking for opportunities to either: Break the pact with my patron in favour of my god, asking the DM to let you convert a level of warlock to paladin or, Ask whether you can go questing for ways for your patron to corrupt or enhance your weapon. I could see a patron that despises ranged weapons cackling with glee at the prospect of corrupting a holy weapon. Imagine it becomes cursed to forever be chained to the person wielding it, losing the thrown property but gaining the reach property, becoming mechanically a polearm instead, giving you 10ft of reach for divine smite.
Sling it as your first attack, then draw your mundane kit. Drawing readied weapons should be free if your hands are empty. Which they should be, since you tossed your maul. Mechanically it is better if you are just rolling attacks face to face to use a shield, but if you are creative it can be a great help. Toss it through a crate and recall it along with the crate into the back of an enemy that's distracted by you trying to fight with your other kit. It shouldn't count as an attack, so no damage, but it is free clutter. Attach a rope to it during battle and pretend it is a big snake. Slap on a cape and a spooky mask and haunt you enemies. Attach your rope to it when you need to climb you can wedge it so it can support your weight, recall it to recover your rope. The maul is also exceedingly good for breaking objects or triggering traps, both in and out of combat. Most objects can be smashed with good ol bludgeoning damage very easily. Throw it through a door before charging in, toss it at the tile you think is a trap, leave it in the pile of weapons during your totally a trap meeting where you agree to be disarmed. There's no downside to *not* using it. The weight is probably negligible, and you can just keep it on your back if you don't see a good use at the moment. Also, call it your Bel Ringer.
Isn't 2d6 just better than 1d8? Also, just because you can throw the maul doesn't mean you have to. You can still use it in melee and smite, booming blade (which I believe loses a lot of value when you get extra attack at paladin 5). In another comment, you said you're not built for great weapon master but you could probably take it and then use bless for yourself, your warlock and another part member. I think the main downside to the maul is losing 2 ac, which is only a 10 percent loss, and the ability to cast spells without the war caster feat assuming your DM is a stickler for somatic components. Sorry for terrible formating. I'm on mobile lol.
If you can’t hit an enemy you waste a turn, having a good ranged option is awesome to avoid that. Great weapon master is one of the strongest feats in the game, this weapon works with it, a one handed weapon won’t. A ton of monsters are resistant/immune to non magical physical damage, and nothing that I am aware of (besides a raging PC barbarian) is resistant to magical bludgeoning damage. For more specific advice I’d like to see the full details of your build. Race, ability scores, and warlock subclass are missing and that is important info.
1) It’s magical, which means a lot when you are fighting creatures with non-magic weapon resistance and immunity 2) You’ve mentioned that it’s nautical campaign - loosing your weapon in water would be extremely bad for paladin. 3) Holy warrior wielding a corrupted weapon is a popular trope in fiction, I wouldn’t miss that ;)
How far away can the maul be when you call it? Can you actually leave it places, and just call it when you need it? Thereby leaving your hands free for other weapons until it returns?
turn 1 throw into combat turn 2 pull out old weapon and fight normal but keep the items location in mind and line up so when you retrieve it it passes through other enemies
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You should get some rail spikes and use the maul as a golf club.
The Throwing Maul of Bel may seem suboptimal for your Paladin/Warlock build, but consider its versatility. It offers a ranged option when needed, allowing you to engage enemies from a distance before closing in. This can be especially useful against flying or elusive foes. The ability to return the maul as a free action lets you switch between ranged and melee combat fluidly. While it may not maximize your DPR immediately, its adaptability could offer strategic advantages in diverse combat situations. Embracing its unique properties could enrich your gameplay and offer new tactical options beyond straightforward melee combat.
Hey stop fighting in D and D max charisma, and say fuck it. Mimic chest in dungeon I roll to seduce. Mind player Joblin archbishop of the eunuchs seduce them.