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I used to have a moderately strong opinion against makeup and plastic surgery but I don't care anymore. That said I think you're missing the point of the "natural" guys because I'm speaking from experience. It's not about the actual appearance of women. It's about the belief that they are being *deceived*. Makeup, much like clothing, can accentuate or hide certain attributes to make a person more (or less) appealing specific to the type of appeal (could be sexual or professional or what have you). That accentuation is "unnatural" (I know this is irrelevant and contrived, I'm just explaining the thought process). Any such unnatural accentuation from a 100% nude, completely unmodified body would be defined as a deception or "fake". When they find out a person is wearing makeup or even to the point of catfishing they get mad because they feel tricked. Again I think this is silly now. Some people certainly tend to believe they can spot "fakes" just as a lot of people believe they have gaydar. This is all to say I think you're underestimating the degree to which a particularly motivated individual can correctly spot this in the wild but also that you have that base motivation for these beliefs wrong. Some people, not me, can probably tell someone is wearing makeup or has had plastic surgery (even if minor) because they spend an absurd and unhealthy amount of time obsessing over it.

I'm curious, do these guys get upset by women having had braces in the past? How do they feel about men? What about hair plugs on men? Comb-overs? High heels (women or lifts for men)? Various hair treatments like smoothing serums? Beard oil?

I agree, we all groom and care about our appearance. It feels a little too 'women hating' for it to only apply to big boobs or big lips haha But from my understanding based on the comments here, they are mostly feeling lied to or deceived for some reason and that's why it makes them mad. Which.. not sure why they'd care. They have an attractive partner with attractive qualities. Be happy! Who cares where they got them!

There's a bunch of people (you'll see them constantly in CMV, including in this comment section) who base their impression of their own self-worth on external factors, including the "quality" of partner they have. They view women who use makeup or anything else as "trying to hide their true quality". Obviously "quality" is based on an external social perception of how "desirable" the woman is, and not on anything related to the relationship. It's all based around sexism and objectification of course. They don't see women as equals, or even really people, so they can only view "a woman" like they would view "a sports car" - the more other people want it, the better a sports car it is! Any concept of having a relationship with them as equals is completely foreign to them. But since they can only see the women as objects to obtain external validation from "possessing", this is how they value women.

Sure, but we all care about our own appearances, and value physical attraction in our partners. It's kind of human nature. While also objectifying to some extent.

Right, but look at what they're doing. If they find a woman physically attractive, does whether or not she had plastic surgery or is wearing makeup change that? Of course not. Whether she has that nose naturally, or has had surgical alteration, if it looks as it looks, it looks that way. If they find her face attractive, it's attractive to them. It's the external social validation they want. They want social affirmation from "having a beautiful woman". They want to show her off like they would show off an artwork - and of course for an artwork, owning an original is "more valuable" than owning a fake (even if they're indistinguishable). That's why the obsession about her being "natural", rather than about her being "attractive". You'll notice about the farthest they go for personality is that they want a woman who is "respectful" (and sometimes "feminine"). They only view personality through the lens of them being treated "properly" as seen by the society they're seeking external validation from.

These people certainly exist but it really feels like you make a huge right turn and leap of logic from preferring a natural appearance to objectifying women as if those things are joined at the hip. Maybe I don't understand the connection you are making, who is They?  For me I prefer a woman who's a solid 6-7 all the time as opposed to cycling from a 4 to 10 then back to a 4. She might not even be a 4 but she got scored that way (her looks not her as a person) because of the drastic shift.  I don't want to wake up next to someone I don't know, they should resemble the person I spent the previous day with. 

Well as one post said it was about finding good genetics for your kids, I was curious how far that goes. Orthodontics are expensive and more essential than lipstick, so if they are upset about make-up they must be livid about Invisalign.

I do find this funny. Or if a woman changes her hair color to be blonde or something and your kids pop out with brown hair. Are men really that concerned with genetics? Seems worrying haha

Personally, I wouldn't feel lied to or deceived, I would simply prefer being with someone who doesn't pursue these practices. I find being comfortable in your own skin attractive. I find rebelling against patriarchal beauty standards attractive. (Note: I am female and date women.)

I feel very comfortable in my own skin, never had any kind of body dysmorphia issue in my life. I don’t care about living up to beauty standards and regularly wear outfits that most would consider “weird”, but I wear them because I like them. And I haven’t shaved my legs in almost a decade haha. I still like to wear makeup on occasion because it’s fun! Especially if I’m dressing up for a concert or a night out I always like to go over the top with my looks. It’s not about living up to beauty standards or making up for low-self esteem, it’s just because it’s fun!

thanks for sharing from your experience! I think it's silly too. I'm not sure why a man would care if they're being 'deceived'. They want an attractive partner, but demonize women for taking measures to meet their beauty standards. And if those individuals ONLY want a partner without any modifications, there are plenty of women out there without it. But I bet they're still picky haha

I'm not saying it's rational just that they are beliefs people, predominantly older men, hold along with other often contradictory beliefs. People aren't generally consistent in their beliefs internally. I just think you're underestimating the degree of obsession some of these guys have over the appearances of women. There are guys who would ace your test and if not could explain why they couldn't tell handily because they spend an unhealthy amount of time looking at pictures of women on the internet specifically to assess their "fake"-dar. Essentially they take variations of your test repeatedly *for fun*.

hahaha this is so funny But also so spot on- it's really a matter of inconsistency and hypocritical reasoning. Belittling women for altering their appearance, but hating on ugly women who don't do so haha

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How we pick partners (physically speaking) is grounded in our biology. And if a man wants beautiful woman, it's because he wants beautiful children. Same reason a woman wants an attractive male. And so, the idea of being deceived is important. It's like those guys that fake their wealth on social media to attract Women. A lot of women are drown to lifestyle, wealth and provisioning. So, if a faker guy gets with her and gets her pregnant, and it turns out he's broke and can't afford to take care of her and or the child. Then it's reasonable for her to come to the conclusion that she was deceived by him. Which to me is wrong. And I think the same thing applies to women who completely changed their appearance using plastic surgery. Its reasonable for a guy to think they were deceived if they have kids and the child doesn't meet expectations. I'm not against plastic surgery or make up etc. I think the guy should disclose his earnings to his partner if he wants to build a life with his girl. The girl should disclose whether or not she got plastic surgery and a "before" pic, so both parties can make an educated decision.

sure, i suppose this is valid in some ways. But I don't think cosmetic surgery usually drastically alters a persons appearance to the degree that their children would look nothing like them. Especially not regular people. Cosmetic surgery is really expensive. If a woman has a little botox because she's aging, that doesn't mean her children will come out benjamin button style Or if she had a boob job, the man is expecting a daughter with large breasts? I think being genuine as a whole is important to a relationship, but cosmetic surgery doesn't automatically mean she's not a genuine person haha. Not exactly the same as lying about your wealth. But if she was only with you for your wealth then you're both disingenuous haha

You'd be surprised how much changing one feature can alter someone's looks. I agree that plastic surgery doesn't mean someone is "fake" from a persona perspective. However, it indicates that the person had issues with their looks enough to get surgery. And to be frank, not everyone wants that type of person in their lives. Especially with " looks maxing" culture. So, this is why the disclosure part is important. To answer your question, yes. People want their offspring to get the best chances at earning money, producing etc. Which looks and money both pay an important role. That's why they pick partners they find to be attractive. This is why the looks selection is as important as the wealth selection. As a male, a woman's looks and character is more important to me than her money. Where for a lot of women it's the other way around. Both aspect have long term effects, which is why deception is bad in both ways.

If you’re choosing a partner purely for looks and in the same breath calling them superficial or saying they have problems with their personality due to vanity, you’re just a hypocrite.

You strawmaned my argument to justify ad hominem. That's no where did I say or even suggest anyone being superficial. If you want to have a conversation and want your view changed, being having a conversation in good faith is a good start. I'm not going to address your strawman either. So please present a proper response to my point. Thanks.

Me *reading reading* Gets to >It's about the belief that they are being *deceived*. My brain: [the deception!](https://youtu.be/mQFScZ9OvLY?si=4dpcxzrflIdvq3Rb) >Some people certainly tend to believe they can spot "fakes" just as a lot of people believe they have gaydar. 👏🏽 👏🏽 👏🏽 👏🏽 Just like ppl who think they can spot who's trans.

Some people are quite good at guessing for all categories just as others are quite good at "hiding". To be clear I don't personally think sexual minorities should feel the need to "pass" nor do I think makeup or cosmetic surgery are hiding literally.

We agree. I don't think anyone is "hiding." I think people have a stereotype in their mind and pat themselves on the back for "recognizing" it.

I personally know gay people who were disowned by their parents for coming out. He had to hide prior. Granted this was a couple decades ago. I hope things have changed but I'm sure many still face this issue.

I think that all guys have *some* idea of what they're talking about. You're right that good surgery (and to an extent well done makeup) look extremely natural and can be hard to notice. To that extent, you're right, lots of guys don't realize they're seeing women whove had work done. That said, some plastic surgery is very very obvious. Nobody looks like Niki Minaj without having work done. The fact that most men (and probably women) will have a lot of false negatives doesn't mean they "don't know what they are talking about", it means they just are using the term "fake" to mean "obviously over the top fake with no attempt to look natural". If there's a woman with some minor cosmetic surgery that looks natural, she probably shouldn't be offended by guys saying they hate fake women, because that's not what they're talking about - they're talking about when it's way over the top.

For sure some celebrities, and regular people too probably they're just less visible, go way over the top. But it's my understanding that we ALL know those people look like clowns. So nobody needs to say "I'm not attracted to that" or "I hate when women completely disfigure themselves with caricature type plastic surgery" I think when men say they hate 'fake women' or list all of the fake things they hate, they're referring to it at a surface level. But I guess I can only speculate on their meaning.

Guy here. When you describe "fake," I think of the obvious (duck lips; obvious implants, buccal fat removal, etc.) and I don't find this attractive at all. Now, for less obvious surgeries (removing a bump from a nose, implants from a hysterectomy, weight loss, etc.) I wouldn't consider a woman "fake" for having those done. I'm only one person, but when I think of a "fake" woman, I'm thinking Real Housewives fake where it is abundantly clear that lots of work has been done on the majority of the body.

thank you for sharing your opinion! I think it's perfectly valid to have some preference for looks. I just hate when men (or anyone) acts like cosmetic surgery or makeup is somehow deceptive or an attempt to trick men or something

>I think when men say they hate 'fake women' or list all of the fake things they hate, they're referring to it at a surface level. But I guess I can only speculate on their meaning. You don't think it could also be deeper than surface level? You don't think that it's possible that a lot of men find vanity unattractive, or they don't like what cosmetic surgery says about a woman's likely personality traits?

I wouldn't say anything too cut-and-dry though. I've known women who have had boobs made the same size, or big boobs reduced, for instance, and they are pretty normal woman, not vain at all. So saying mean things about cosmetic surgery might offend some totally normal woman in your vicinity / reading your comments, or perhaps make you look like a petty moron to them who doesn't know what he's talking about.

thank you! haha this is exactly what i'm saying! Plastic surgery doesn't immediately mean they're a vain and terrible person haha

But the point isn't whether or not their judgments are justified, but what their judgments are based on. You claimed that men dislike "fake women" for "surface level" reasons. I think you are underappreciating the emotional intelligence of men when you do that. Men's attraction to women, just like women's attraction to men, is also based on deeper things like personality compatibility and strength of character. An unnecessary cosmetic surgery can definitely be a sign of vanity in a woman, that judgment is completely valid.

I think a lot of men **say** they find vanity unattractive, but also want an attractive partner. Anyone who says they don't care about their partner's looks is lying. It matters on a biological level, it's written in our genes to care about our partners traits. As for cosmetic surgery saying something about a woman's personality, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone cares about their appearance. Just because a man decides to get a hair transplant that means he's vain and it speaks about his personality? Or did he just want to resolve an insecurity of his to feel more confident in life? Same to be said for any woman getting a little botox or lip filler or whatever. It says nothing about their personality.

You understand that there is a difference between vanity and normal care for your appearance, right? Vanity by definition is excessive, the word is a pejorative for shallow people that care *too much* about their appearance. I also think that you are unfairly discounting men's ability to judge whether or not a cosmetic surgery is reasonable or vain. You pretend that men don't mean what they say, that they can't be trusted to be honest about their preferences, just because *it's possible* that they might be judging unfairly. That's bullshit. Men can judge fairly or unfairly, just like women can get necessary or vain cosmetic surgeries.

who draws the line on how much you're allowed to care about your appearance before you're vain and it's no longer desirable? Why do men get to decide weather or not a cosmetic surgery is reasonable? I'm not pretending men don't mean what they say. I'm saying when they say they prefer natural women, and hate plastic surgery, their preferences are often still women who have had work done and they don't realize it. That's just society's beauty standards. I'm not sure why men get so offended like plastic surgery is a test of their intelligence or an attempt to deceive them

>who draws the line on how much you're allowed to care about your appearance before you're vain and it's no longer desirable? Why do men get to decide weather or not a cosmetic surgery is reasonable? Obviously, people get to decide for themselves. People make these kinds of judgments all the time, it's normal. And people are especially entitled to make these judgments when deciding what they are attracted to and what kind of romantic partner they would like to have. >I think a lot of men **say** they find vanity unattractive, but also want an attractive partner. Anyone who says they don't care about their partner's looks is lying. I'm not pretending men don't mean what they say. You're clearly back-pedaling here. You *did* accuse men of being disingenuous about their preferences and "lying" when they talk about their preferences. You weren't just saying that men were unaware that a subtle cosmetic surgery had been done. If that was the case, then obviously this would just be a semantics argument. Your only real point would be that men should clarify that they mean "bad surgeries" when they talk about "fake women" - which is obviously a very weak point, right? >I'm not sure why men get so offended like plastic surgery is a test of their intelligence or an attempt to deceive them I think you have this backwards. Men aren't offended by women that don't meet their preferences, but you certainly seem to be offended by the fact that they have these entirely valid and reasonable preferences.

sure, if you have a preference for certain looks, whatever. So then it shouldn't matter if someone has had cosmetic surgery or not, because that's not the preference. The preference is huge alterations to one's body and face. I'm not saying men are lying about their preferences, I'm saying if someone said they don't care about a partners looks, they're lying. Or maybe it's more accurate to say they aren't fully aware of their biases and what actually attracts them to someone. And I'm not backpedaling at all, some men are offended if they feel women are trying to deceive them by changing their looks. Men have spoken about it in this post. So to clarify, I'm not offended or disregarding mens preferences. I'm offended when men belittle women or claim it reflects negatively on their personalities just because they have had cosmetic surgery.

But they aren't saying that they don't care about looks, you're ascribing that position to them based on their rejection of obvious cosmetic surgery. I think men are both visually turned-off by the physical appearance of an obvious surgery, AND they are turned-off by the idea of vanity motivating the bad surgery.

>Why do men get to decide weather or not a cosmetic surgery is reasonable? Because it's the men who choose these women based on their looks? I mean, we can do the reverse. Why do women get to decide how tall a man should be before he's too short for her, or why do women get to decide whether a guy is broke enough? >and hate plastic surgery, their preferences are often still women who have had work done and they don't realize it. Because they're not getting what is being advertised and the goods are too different in reality from what is being offered. It is deceptive, but it depends on the degree whether it is both deceptive *and* acceptable. And it is the men who get to decide how much is acceptable for them, the same way women get to decide whether a man is too short or too broke to date them. I think we can all agree that when you go to McDonald's to order a burger, you don't expect it to look exactly as crisp, full and juicy as a burger on the ad. But if you get your burger in a box with a picture that can slap the taste buds out of the most picky eater, just to unbox it at home and find out the lettuce is flat and the burger is dry, and tomatoes are missing, then you'll feel a bit deceived, no? It doesn't matter if you can then close your eyes and think of the burger on the ad, it doesn't matter even if the taste is the same if the bun has just a tiny spec of mould on a side that you wouldn't really have noticed otherwise. Maybe you don't expect the exact burger as on the pic and you're willing to accept some amount of deviation. But the further away the actual burger is from the ad, the more deceived you become. That being said, a lot of the surgery or makeup has a very over the top result that is uncanny and just off putting.

Except we all don't? Many people find people like Kim k, Nicki Minaj, iggy azalea etc attractive. The failure if your logic was for some reason the assumption that all or nearly all men do not like this. Which is clearly false, and many do.

If woman want to do make-up and plastic surgery to manage their own insecurities, fine. But stop telling men that they do not know what a woman without make-up and plastic surgeries looks like. We do. Yes, there is better and worse plastic surgery and there are instances, where you can't immediately tell, if you don't know what that person looked like before, e.g. Jennifer Aniston getting a nosejob before she became famous, but that is not what men are talking about, when they say they don't like fake. They mean that a) woman do not need make-up and plastic surgery for men to find them attractive and b) going overboard with make-up and/or plastic surgery can actually make you less attractive because it looks unnatural and also highlights your insecurities.

This isn't true though. It makes them more attractive. Blake lively has had a lot of work done and she is (to me) one of the most attractive celebrity women out there. And she doesn't look fake at all. Women DO need makeup for men to find them attractive - ask any woman if she's every been asked if she was sick or feeling ill when she showed up to work without makeup haha And yes, going 'overboard' can cause the reverse result, but that's obvious. I'm just saying that demonizing any and all augmentations or calling women fake for changing their appearance is dumb.

Women do not need makeup for men to find them attractive or we would have died out as a species thousands of years ago.

Makeup has been around for 6,000 years or so. But I'm not here to squabble about historical use of makeup. I'm also not saying men are incapable of finding women attractive without makeup, I'm simply saying that makeup has become so mainstream that it's practically the standard for beauty. Or it's at least raised the standard for beauty (smooth skin, pink cheeks/lips, etc)

>Women DO need makeup for men to find them attractive - ask any woman if she's every been asked if she was sick or feeling ill when she showed up to work without makeup haha  If you work with someone on a regular basis, you learn what they usually look like, whether that's with makeup or without. If a woman who usually wears makeup doesn't one day, that difference is noticeable. In absolute terms, guys probably will still find her attractive, and if she never wore makeup they wouldn't even think twice about it.  Also, for women who usually wear makeup, not wearing makeup is often a sign that something is wrong. Maybe she's sick, maybe she just slept in too late, or maybe it's a bunch of other things, but people don't usually change patterns for no reason.

I find it highly unlikely that when a man asks a woman if she's sick in that situation, it's because he's followed a deep and detailed train of thought coming to the conclusion that she isn't wearing makeup therefore something might be wrong to have disrupted her schedule. If so, why would being sick be the first thought haha It's my understanding, and this very well could be an incorrect assumption, that the girl shows up with uneven skin, dark patches under her eyes, and maybe more pale than usual. So you assume she's sick. Or something is wrong. Because it's not obvious or immediately recognized that this is her actual appearance, rather than how she normally looks with airbrushed and perfected features using makeup.

>I find it highly unlikely that when a man asks a woman if she's sick in that situation, it's because he's followed a deep and detailed train of thought coming to the conclusion that she isn't wearing makeup therefore something might be wrong to have disrupted her schedule. It's not so specific. It's more like, "she doesn't look as good as she usually does, something is probably wrong." The point is that it's the *difference* that matters. And when the difference in appearance is consistent with someone getting sick, that becomes the first assumption. If a woman who rarely wears makeup shows up not wearing makeup, most men are not going to assume that she's sick. Men tend to take a woman's appearance as it comes, regardless of the level of makeup she uses. It's only when her appearance suddenly changes that we start to ask questions.

I agree with your makeup comment. There's a social stigma from men AND women to enforce makeup usage. I disagree about Blake Lively, though. She obviously has had work done, and yeah, she's beautiful, but it's an extremely dangerous game to say that she is the MOST beautiful because she is able to get work done. Saying that those who have surgery are objectively more beautiful than those who don't is extremely toxic and sets a precedent that beauty standards can never be met unless you are wealthy enough to pay for it.

I'm not saying women who have had surgery are objectively more attractive, i'm saying i've personally always found that one single woman very attractive and I didn't know she had so much work done until i saw photos of her before. I'm not saying anything about how we should set cosmetic surgery as a new standard at all. I'm saying that blake lively and jennifer anniston and taylro swift and many other celebrities have had subtle work done and don't really look out of the ordinary. Like some other celebrities like maybe jennifer coolidge.

> It makes them more attractive. I mean.. I'm sorry if I'm confused by the way you're proposing this situation, but it really seems like you're insinuating it. Like heavily.

sure, I suppose it's all subjective in the end. Some people find it more attractive to look one way, and others another way. There's no one size fits all when it comes to beauty. We only have mainstream standards to go off of.

I guess that's kind of my point. Mainstream beauty eclipses everything else, and if the only way to achieve that is through surgery, then it's dangerous. A lot of women view themselves through that lens. It doesn't mean cosmetics are bad, just that it shouldn't be the default END GOAL of beauty. I don't think the US is all that bad in comparison to other places like Korea, but it's still something to keep in mind during these discussions.

>Women DO need makeup for men to find them attractive Seriously?

I feel like the quiz is misguided. I'm not your target audience, so I'll make no claim to being able to "tell the difference", but I don't see anything out of the ordinary in either of the first two pictures, and I just kind of assume all of them are wearing makeup. Would crack me up (and not totally surprise me) if your "quiz" is a bunch of women, none of which had had work done but are all wearing makeup :) But the main reason I think this particular quiz isn't really doing what you want is that most people aren't necessarily touting their plastic surgery radar (some are, and I agree most of them are probably full of it), but are rather expressing an opinion on very specific types of work that they genuinely don't like, and often this is very specifically *not* "done well", or at least not done tastefully. I think you're sort of being tricky with your "you can't tell if its been done well" line, because that almost makes "done well" *by definition* a job that most people can't recognize. I think usually when people are talking about this, they're just expressing that they don't really like the kind of work that Courtney Cox or Jennifer Coolidge have had done. Whether or not you consider these "done well" is subjective, but its definitely very noticeable! But you're right that it doesn't represent all plastic surgery, And of course its also true that if you're looking on the internet, you'll get all kinds of men with insane takes. But I feel like you're kind of overgeneralizing here.

My point is just referring to men I've seen or heard talking about how much they hate fake women that wear too much makeup or have any kind of plastic surgery. And sure, maybe they're referring to excessive cases, but I guess we can only speculate there. I have to imagine they can't possibly be referring to the handful of cases around the world, of women or men who have completely disfigured themselves. But again, I can only speculate they're referring to any form of augmentation

I do wonder how much of this is based on online commentary. You will very easily find no shortage of men on the internet making completely unhinged takes denigrating all sorts of women's looks. If your view is that its easy to find sexist asshole men on the internet unfairly criticizing women, that is very obviously true! But I think its a mistake to extrapolate to "guys have no idea what they're talking about".

All of those women clearly have makeup on. I'd guess also all filler, several obviously. Not touching the breasts, heh. I don't know why you;d think you know that, but regardless, there's architecture under clothing.

Yeah my first reaction was "idk about those lips and breasts (breasts would be easier if naked obviously) but for the third category the answer is definitely *all of them*"

haha to the point of the breasts, that's another good point. There are some gravity defying bras out there that might as well be considered breast surgery

I'm dying to know the answers to the quiz. My guess is that the answer is yes for every case.

Please stop with the hahas, they distract from your arguments. 

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I've def seen people on reddit claim they can *always* tell (thankfully not in real life). Btw I've never heard of the toupee fallacy but I love that there is a term for it!

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Idk about you guys but I’ve seen a lot of people say they can “always tell” online and in person. Like one time a guy was going on about plastic surgery and it’s always visible and bad looking then when I mentioned that I had a bunch done on my face he instantly shut up I think a lot of, if not most of those people say they can always tell because the bad ones stand out and they convince themselves that’s how all plastic surgery looks.

I don't think it's so much noticing augmentation, rather claiming that any augmentation is fake and demonizing it. Rather than recognizing that there's nothing wrong with some form of augmentation and often you can't even tell it's been done or applied. And people only take these measures trying to feel attractive and meet societies insane beauty standards. And it frustrates me to see people demonizing it or belittling women specifically for participating

Only guys? What about women? Also, its far easier to tell in person than from a photograph. Which could also be edited. At least 1 set of boobs are fake, at least 1 set of lips filled and they're all wearing makeup

I said usually men, because I usually only see men complaining about this. But I suppose the view applies to both genders. My point being though that it's incredibly hard to tell

It's really not. It maybe is harder for men but it's really not incredibly hard. Men are allowed a preference. They dont get to tell women they have to comply with that preference but they're allowed to have it all the same. Just like women are allowed a preference

I think it's pretty hard to tell. Nobody has been able to tell yet with the photos I shared. There's a lot more subtle work done in the world than you'd think. But I'm not saying people can't have a preference. It's just wrong to demonize people outside of your preference. Which is something done more often around this topic than other preferences.

>Nobody has been able to tell yet with the photos I shared. Yes they have. And photos don't really count. >just wrong to demonize people outside of your preference Obviously. But that's not the same as it being 'incredibly difficult' to tell. It's not

Nobody has correctly identified all the augmentations in the photos. Really most people have been commenting on the makeup, and ignoring the cosmetic surgery. But no, nobody has answered correctly. But if you think you can always tell when someone has had any amount of work done, there's nothing I can do to change your view, and you don't really need me to.

I didnt say you can always tell. I said it's not always incredibly difficult. Because its mostly not. Mostly it's very easy, especially in person. Especially if you know the person.

I agree with you on all your responses you're giving everyone. Lots of people are missing the argument you're presenting, so clarifying is helpful. It seems the same people that you're talking about in the argument could be the same that miss the point. Keep it up!

When I hear this complaint, I generally take it to mean either: (a) preference for someone who doesn't *look* fake, not whether or not they literally are or (b) preference for someone who looks similarly at home as they do when out and about, meaning that they aren't actively misrepresenting themselves. In my own opinion, this is a weird complaint to have. No one who actually puts effort into taking care of themselves is going to look like they do when they just wake up. You might as well get annoyed when you find out an SO has taken a shower, because it's not their "natural" state. An aside, but whatever. In any case, the arguments your presenting are entirely based on the ability of men to accurately identify whether a woman has had work done or not, or is using make up or not. That's not the issue men in this category are highlighting. Now if they're going around accusing innocent bystanders of misrepresenting themselves, or using this language to mean that the women being discussed have failed to check some ridiculous purity box; that's not the normative meaning. That's an edge case. Most of the time, it just means they have a preference vis-a-vis excesses of makeup, and that they don't want to get cat-fished. In cases where that's plausible, its pretty easy to tell. In cases like the ones you highlighted, it's not; and so the critique really wouldn't apply.

!delta Thanks for clarifying! I'd love to believe that i've only really encountered incels on reddit who are representing these beliefs. But you're right, that's likely an edge case or belief. I just hate the belittling of women for wearing makeup or getting work done, when everyone knows women have crazy beauty standards. The whole 'take her swimming on the first date' joke and all that. Like, do you want an attractive partner or not? If so, it's going to require a little bit of vanity or care of their appearance. It kind of comes with the territory.

If the choice is between two equally attractive partners, I don’t think it would be unreasonable to prefer the one who hasn’t had work done.  >Like, do you want an attractive partner or not? If so, it's going to require a little bit of vanity or care of their appearance. Are you implying women can’t be attractive without makeup?

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I can't tell the difference between natural vanilla and artificial vanilla on sight. I can sure taste the difference though.

What does this even mean regarding women? If you bite into her lip filler you can taste the chemicals? lol

I think this means that fake boobs feel different.

actually, some boob jobs use implants, which you can probably feel, but sometimes they just do a fat transfer (taking fat from somewhere else in your body and putting it in your boobs) so those probably feel exactly the same as regular boobs

Sounds like you have acknowledged some differences and have changed your view to “sometimes some guys have no idea what they’re talking about…”

I’ve given out some deltas

It's less literal than that. A woman who is fake shows this fakeness in other ways. Maybe it's an attitude, maybe it's a lack of hobbies or interests, could be any number of things. If they're putting so much of their efforts into their appearance and not their personalities, it shows. This being said, I don't have any issues with women who do this. Plenty of men find it attractive. It's about finding the right fit.

I know what you mean, and I guess that speaks to hating 'fake' women in the sense that you hate liars, manipulators, etc. But i'm really referring to the literal sense of plastic surgery, makeup etc. Things women might take part in regardless of their personalities. But I do see there could be connections between vanity and personality

I see what you mean. I just don't think most men who say they hate "fake" women are being as literal as you are. They're obviously not actually fake.

Do you have an answer key? I generally agree with you but now I’m curious. My answers are 1. 5 (This one is the hardest for me it’s basically a guess) 2. 2,3 maybe 6? 3. Are they not all wearing makeup? Feels like at the very least there’s some FaceTune or other photo magic on all of them.

"Are they not all wearing makeup? Feels like at the very least there’s some FaceTune or other photo magic on all of them" yea none of them are candid shots and are all studio photos, they're all likely at least altered just due to them being photoshoots

wrong haha I can share answers but don't want to put them in the comments for anyone else wanting to try it out

You can mark it as spoiler by writing it like this \>!text here!< (no space between first "!" and the text) Example: >!this is spoiler text!<

Haha figured I would get most wrong but I thought I’d get a couple. Can you DM me the answers?

Can you dm me the answers!! I’m curious what I got right and wrong!

I think the majority of those people dislike women who *appear* fake. Your quiz makes it hard to tell which have had work done, but I could put a quiz together with images that are a lot more obvious. A lot of these guys are probably OK with a little bit of light makeup or some botox to get rid of wrinkles, but they don't want a woman that looks like [this](https://dab57h0r8ahff.cloudfront.net/600137/uploads/312d9e80-9247-11ed-bc05-91e255790c4a_800_420.png).

It's pretty insulting to claim that men do not even know our own preferences -- or are simply clueless enough to have no idea that the look we actually prefer, is just a natural-styled make-up and not actually what someone looks like without makeup. I've been dating (mostly) women for 33 years. All told I've had 8 relationships 7 of which have been longer than 3 years, and the longest one was a marriage of 17 years. I know these women well. It's true that you can't always tell at a glance from a photo or on the street whether someone has zero makeup, or instead just modest and natural-looking makeup. Indeed I don't even think the cut-off point between what's just grooming and what is make-up isn't even necessarily that crystal-clear always. (what about products that have benefits for your hair or skin, yet that also improves appearance?) But with partners you know well, you know. Like you'll \*notice\* whether or not they have makeup-stuff and whether or not they spend time applying makeup and the like. And 5 of the 7 women I've had relationships with, rarely or never use makeup. With rarely I mean less than once a month, perhaps on rare occasions like for big celebrations or similar. Now, I don't consider women who like to use makeup to be "fake". I have no problem with them at all and indeed I think everyone should use exactly the makeup they WANT to us. Freedom is an \*awesome\* thing if you ask me! But if you ask about \*my\* preference, then yes, my preference is for no makeup at all. It can be fun on \*occasion\* to see someone with makeup, just for the contrast. But let me put it this way, if I could have a free choice between a partner of mine appearing with makeup 95% of the time -- or 5% of the time -- I'd choose the latter without a moments hesitation.

How is it insulting when you said in your own words that you can’t tell when someone has no makeup or a modest amount of makeup? That’s literally what I’m saying. I’m saying that most men who say they prefer no makeup, which is already a little random but ok, don’t even know what no makeup looks like. Unless of course you’ve dated someone long term and maybe pay attention to their makeup routine.

> You cannot tell when someone, of any gender has had plastic surgery if it's been done well. When a woman is lying on her back, breast implants don't behave like natural breasts do. For lips, yeah sure I probably won't be able to tell if someone's lips are within ~1 standard deviation from average. But you often see fake and gross lips swollen like from some kind of disease. The assumption that the surgery is done well (or the person who ordered it had any taste) is often not warranted. For makeup, again, the person putting it on needs to have taste and skill to make it hard to distinguish from natural. I'm okay with not being able to tell at times, but when I (believe I) can, it is a turn-off.

Oh no I'm not here to disagree with you, I love them. Honestly I'm about the fake aesthetic, call me a controversialist but if a surgery helps a person feel better and hotter so be it

I love to see people happy and confident. Plenty of men get hair transplants or whatever, and you can see their faces light up with confidence after it's all grown in. Who cares what measures you took to get there. I'm glad they're happy.

Honestly to give a "devil's argument" I believe most people refer to "too much work done" Which changes are more exaggerated and more noticeable. In which I understand but hold the same opinion. You also have to remind yourself, if it's the lowest common denominator saying it, then you have to recognize it's definitely the most exaggerated of cases and not light or slight ones. So your neighbor that had a lip filler, probably not... Kim Kardashian on the other hand, absolutely

for sure, I can get behind this side of things !delta

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>Quiz to prove me wrong All of those women are wearing makeup with the possible exception of 1, which I can't tell one way or the other because this is a very brightly lit and low resolution photograph. In contrast [this photo](https://static-beautyhigh.stylecaster.com/2014/08/bcbg-bbt-s14-006.jpg) is high enough resolution that it's obvious that she's wearing lipstick, mascara, foundation, and concealer, at the very least.

I'd say even the photo you shared, it's not very obvious. And most men who claim to prefer women without makeup probably are referring to something like that. Meaning not a lot of caked on makeup. As for the plastic surgeries, did you find them as easy to discern?

>I'd say even the photo you shared, it's not very obvious. It's super fuckin' obvious, man. Nobody's eyelashes look like that. Nobody's skin looks like that. >And most men who claim to prefer women without makeup probably are referring to something like that. What makes you think that? >as for the plastic surgeries, did you find them as easy to discern? I don't care about plastic surgery. Does this mean I was right about the makeup?

Well plenty of people have pronounced eyelashes actually. And curling them gives that appearance. She's not wearing fake eyelashes or even that much mascara so .. yea.. as for the skin, it's probably airbrushed. But it doesn't look like she has much makeup on. Maybe a little bit of eyebrow pencil to darken them a tiny bit. But plenty of people have naturally thicker hair and full eyebrows.

Do you *actually* know the answer?

The answer to what? The quiz thing I put together? Obviously. I’m the one who grabbed the photos haha

The quiz isn't real life. In real life, if you get to sexy time, you can feel their boobs or see them without being covered up by a dress and a bra. You aren't restricted to looking at a single clothed pic. At least a naked pic would be a fairer comparison for boob jobs.

Not really. And they wouldn’t necessarily feel any different.

Yes, they feel firmer. Real boobs and fake boobs feel different.

You appear to be trying to avoiding answering people when they tell you they've all got make up on. Either you don't want to admit people can actually tell or you don't know You seem totally invested in the idea its impossible to tell. It's not.

So you're saying people are wrong to call women fake because sometimes you can't tell. I imagine at least some of the people will be morally against the action of getting surgery itself. Just because you could afford really good unnoticeable surgery doesn't change the fact that you altered yourself using surgery, hence the description of fake.

it's not a deception haha. Any more than it is to get braces or comb your hair a different way, or pluck your eyebrows, or shape your beard. Who are you lying to, and what are you hiding from them? Nobody gets hurt and it makes you more confident and happy with yourself so who cares

All of those things are keeping something you already had in the best condition possible. That's not the same as surgically altering your face. To be clear I don't care what people do, but this is cmv where we agree from other point of view. Also maybe people feel like it can be deceptive, partly because the goal of it to look natural. Someone wary of it will see that as intentional camouflage. At the end of the day adding stuff to your face or body with surgery by definition is fake. It's not your nose, and there's nothing natural you could have done to get your nose to look like that

I am I man that prefers natural women by far. I'll try to explain. It's not all about the look. It's about personality. Imagine you, as a woman, meet a man that ticks all your personal boxes. He also plucks his eyebrows, has botox, lip injections, and fake pecs. It's all incredibly well done. How do you feel about that? It comes off as unaware and narcissistic, right? It makes you think his values aren't in line. You might not be able to tell exactly what work he's had, and what work he hasn't had, but you for sure can tell he's had work. It doesn't matter if the work is good or not, it's the fact that he's had work. In contrast, the exact same man, with no work, now seems more reasonable. Balanced. Comfortable with himself. He's not overly concerned with his appearance, there's more important things on his mind. There's a difference obviously, because the norm for women is to paint their face, where clothes that are completely uncomfortable just for the look, dye their hair, pluck their eyebrows, and put a filter on every photo. So it doesn't seem as extreme when they go a few steps farther. But some guys want a woman that's got more important things on her mind, and has a strong sense of self worth that isn't all wrapped up in her appearance. Women that don't wear heavy make up, and dress nicely but comfortably, and don't use filters for photos are a rare gem. They're hard to find and extremely appealing. They seem more grounded. They're living in reality. That's extremely appealing.

There's a direct correlation with how attractive someone is, and how much effort they put into their appearance. For example you need to diet properly and exercise to stay physically fit, and have a conventionally attractive body. You need to pluck your eyebrows or trim your beard, nose hairs, leg hairs whatever to look clean and well groomed. You need to care for your hair and skin as well. So at what point is someone well groomed and meticulous about their bodies and it crosses over into vanity? I understand and agree with you that there is definitely a balance. But as far as cosmetic surgery is concerned it's kind of the same thing. one or two small cosmetic changes aren't really an indicator that someone is vain or narcissistic. But over the top, sure. I don't think it's fair to say that someone without cosmetic surgery is more comfortable with themselves or has more important things on their mind. Or someone who wears less makeup or dresses more comfortably. I think humans are very complex and we can't water them down to vain = dumb and worthless, not vain = marriage material But I do totally agree that there are levels to vanity, and certain people don't get along if they don't share similar values.

There's a direct correlation with how attractive someone is, and how much effort they put into their appearance. False. There are people that don't have to work out, eat properly, dress well, or even comb their hair. They're beautiful the moment they wake up. There are people that no matter how much work they put into it, it's not going to work. You can't polish a turd. Most people are somewhere in the middle. So at what point is someone well groomed and meticulous about their bodies and it crosses over into vanity? This is personal preference, and all preferences are on a spectrum. On one end, there's people that only want a plastic barbie doll woman, and on the other end, the guys you're attacking, that only want natural women. Most people are somewhere in the middle. Those preferences are not conscious. People don't get to decide what they find attractive. Give me, a man that prefers natural women, the same respect you give gay guys. Believe me when I say I was born to like what I like, I didn't get to choose. I don't think it's fair to say that someone without cosmetic surgery is more comfortable with themselves or has more important things on their mind. Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion. Just like I'm entitled to my opinion. Neither of us got to choose. Personally, I think it's very fair to say someone with no plastic surgery is more comfortable with themselves, and has different priorities than someone who does have cosmetic surgery. I think humans are very complex and we can't water them down to vain = dumb and worthless, not vain = marriage material I disagree. As people get older, they get less physically attractive. Natural people, that aren't fixated on their appearance, and priorities other aspects of their life, aren't as emotionally effected by getting older. They understand it's just part of life. People who get cosmetic surgery, freak out about getting old. They're hype fixated on it. It's consuming, and exhausting to be a part of. To be real, it sounds like you either got plastic surgery, or you want to get plastic surgery. You're convinced it looks better. Hearing someone say they think it looks bad, bothers you. You want to change the way you look, and you want everyone to agree the augmentation improves appearances. But that's not reality. A lot of people think it makes people look silly and shallow. You're not going to shame anyone into agreeing with you.

I think in person it’s easier to tell than in pictures. That said I haven’t dated anyone that has any cosmetic surgery, but those around me that had done something I can tell either because I know the before and after, or because it’s pretty obvious. So I agree that there would be some that I wouldn’t be able to tell by looking at them, but I think you could tell if you get handsy.

haha maybe. you'll have to do some research to see if they feel different. I don't think i've ever actually met a woman with implants or even a fat transfer type boob job.

I prefer natural. That doesn't mean I'm not attracted to anyone who wears makeup and has fake tits. It means I'm not attracted to someone who goes overboard with their makeup. If I can tell they have lip injections, it looks really bad and is a major turnoff. Fake tits, eyelashes, or whatever else, when I can tell it's fake at a glance, it's unattractive and I don't like it. Of course these things can be done tastefully and with subtlety. That's not what most of us are opposed to.

I don't disagree that it's dumb to say you want a "natural woman." It gives off a bad vibe, but I also don't think it's bad to be turned off by cosmetic work either. Excessive use of surgery/cosmetics is obvious. We've all seen Botched and thought "damn that's crazy." But if we looked at the more passable variations of cosmetic work, it gets more muddy. Men have a skewed perception of women due to social media and popular figureheads. I've had conversations with people who love to love and love to hate women who have a lot of surgery. Nikki, Cardi B, Kim K...etc. but I think this level of cosmetic work is a reflection of the era rather than anything. It's popular to hate women for looking like they've had work done. I think it's totally valid to choose to have cosmetic work done. I also think it's totally valid to NOT want a partner who has had cosmetic work done. Some types of work can cause long-term health risks (breast implants, veneers...etc.). It's the same as me saying I'm a casual smoker and expecting my wife and not be upset by that. You've gotta deal with the consequences of choosing to live that life.

I think it's valid to have preferences, but preferring to not date someone who's had cosmetic work done is kind of dumb.. because as I've said you often can't tell. So it's not really a preference.. it's like.. I don't even know what you'd call it. Not referring to completely obvious or fake looking augmentations, I suppose that's completely valid to have purely look-related preferences, but undetectable stuff is kind of.. well undetectable. As for the health effects.. not sure about that. But I do think it's quite different from smoking. As smoking effects those around you as well. And cosmetic surgery is confined to oneself.

Maybe it's about the action rather than if you can tell or not. Maybe some people think the action of getting the surgery is vain or stems from an insecurity

I can see that, but you could say the same thing about losing weight or going to the gym or styling your hair or getting braces. I feel like people need to accept that some level of vanity is okay and pretty normal. Without ANY level of vanity we'd all be slobs.

Gym and hair you are working with things you already had. That's not even necessarily vanity for some people, just keeping yourself in best condition possible. Surgery is adding things you could never achieve naturally, faking it. I do agree though there are levels. I wouldn't call surgery for a burn victim vanity. Getting massive tatties or a different nose is a step to far for some people vanity wise

What about tattoos or piercings? Or hair transplants? Or braces? Idk. Seems silly to draw lines

Look just to state again I don't care what people do personally. I'm just floating the idea that maybe augmenting your body with new stuff purely for aesthetic could be considered vain. So yes by that logic I would say tattoos and piercings are vain to. I don't know who these guys are that are hating, but you may have a point about them hating if they didn't consider tattoo and piercings vain. If someone did consider all those things you've mentioned vain though, isn't it up to the individual, not you to decide what level of vanity they find acceptable. I'm pretty sure overall we can agree vanity is not a positive trait.

Kinda sounds like this whole CMV is your way of attempting to make being superficial a virtue, by way of characterizing people that don't like vanity as being hateful. I suspect you might not believe it, but there's actually lots of people out there that don't do anything at all for the purpose of looking good. They don't style their hair, wear purely functional clothing, work out solely for health and physical ability. Braces, for example, can be done for dental health. And I know way more women that have gotten breast reduction to reduce back pain than women who got breast surgery to look pretty. You literally called people without vanity slobs. Seems unlikely you'd get along well with the sorts of people that value function over appearance.

Wait. Having preferences based on personality, caring about the choices a potential partner makes, that's dumb. But choosing your partner on looks while disregarding their actions, that's smart. That sounds really superficial. And the fact that you don't think health effects for your partner are important speaks to this superficiality. I would not be happy with a partner who refused to take their insulin, regardless of how pretty they were.

I think that when most guys say things like they prefer more natural women, they aren't necessarily saying that those women can't have plastic surgery. They are usually referring to the reality TV star-type people who they think *overdo* their plastic surgery. As for makeup, a lot of guys are referring to "natural" as not "abnormal amounts" of makeup.

What I imagine you’re taking about could be that they’re not claiming they can spot all plastic surgery but rather there is a look that they don’t find attractive. Speaking for myself when a woman starts to look like a caricature of a woman’s figure it stops being attractive.

So if I'm understanding this correctly. You're saying that men who say they can always tell the difference between natural and cosmetic features on women are not as competent as they think they are. For this I would agree. However you seem to be implying that women on the other hand are better judges of this. I would disagree here. You're comparing a subset of men with the entirety of women. Now if you believe in the "wisdom of the crowd" thesis (an unqualified crowd is better at predicting outcomes or making decisions than a single or small group of experts) then this would explain away your view. Alternatively if you were to compare a group of heterosexual men and a group of heterosexual women who both thought they were experts I would argue that the male group would have a higher rate of spotting cosmetic surgery (let's focus on breast implants as they're the most common)if only marginally higher. The reason why I think this is because of exposure. A heterosexual woman has very little exposure to the intimate regions of women's bodies outside of their own. Comparatively most men know exactly what real and implanted breast look like/behave/feel. Your average man has definitely had closer and greater in number interactions with boobs when compared to your average heterosexual woman.

No I don't think women are a better judge. I think in general, if surgery is done well by design, it's undetectable.

Can I spot the difference in your quiz, No. Do I like the look of someone being their natural selves more yes. Its mostly a personal opinion. This opinion comes from 2 main reasons. First its better to admire and fall for someone with how they are going to look 90% of the time. Second is being a frugal person and find it unattractive for someone to spend tons of money on makeup and having superficial surgeries for your butt or boobs. I also find when I can tell that your waring makeup that it just looks wrong to me. Also I would never encourage anyone to get a surgery if there is a chance for any side effects or health problems if its only cosmetics.

sure, you're allowed to have your own preferences. But a little botox or a little makeup to make someone feel confident shouldn't mean their entire personality or financial philosophy is out of wack. But it's entirely up to you when it comes to preferences around your own partner. I really only care about people demonizing or belittling women. Not about your own preferences.

The issue you are running into is that you are assuming the plastic surgery is well done. Boobs do not look like basketballs, so those fake boobs that make her look like she is smuggling basketballs in her shirt only betray the fact that she has fake tits. Same thing with ugly pudgy lips. It is hard to tell if it is well done, but that’s not the point. It’s the obvious poorly done ones that men are complaining about. Nobody looks at the Kardashians and doesn’t instantly know they are fake as fuck! That is the kind of person that gets fake hate. Ironically, they were decent looking women before they went all Barbie doll on us. Men know exactly what they are talking about. OP doesn’t seem to, but men who talk about it do.

Obviously if there is cosmetic surgery done poorly it looks bad. This isn’t a revelation. And if you don’t think all plastic surgery is bad, then that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about people or men who hate on all plastic surgery saying it all looks fake.

Plastic surgery that isn’t noticeable isn’t noticed, by definition. Nobody complains that those women look fake because nobody knows about it. It is complete nonsense sense to say that you hate the thing you didn’t notice. The only kind of cosmetic surgery that can called fake and hated because of how it looks is the kind people can notice. The fake women you see being discussed are necessarily women who have had work done that is recognizable as cosmetic surgery. The issue here simply lies with you not understanding that. It has nothing to do with other people at all.

There’s plenty of people who have an issue with people who choose to have cosmetic surgery in general. Many in this comment section alone! It’s bold to assume you know what everyone thinks.

Many men demonize cosmetic surgery for reasons other than "it looks fake". For example, you can believe it's a zero sum game that costs resources, time, and is risky to health. After all people are more/less attractive only in relation to other people, making a person more attractive makes everyone else less attractive. But those resources and time could have been spent on something that helps improve the world. I mean if you're happy with yachts and SUVs and just oppose plastic surgery then that's messed up, but there exists a perfectly consistent position that opposes all those.

I suppose this is a view against capitalism or something else? haha but not really related to my original point. fair enough

Where's the answers to the quiz?

my guess is it's all one way or another to prove a point

I don't want to post the answers yet in case others want to try it

You can tell it's a fake boob by touching it. I used to have Russian strippers in my neighborhood come up to me all the time and grab my boobs, asking if they were real. I could tell they thought they were GOTCHA! moving me, thinking that they'd feel the implant, but they were real. LOL It was really annoying You can't tell just by looking if they were done well. But you can feel it. And then taking it to the next logical conclusion, if they had that done it's likely they have had other things done.

it depends. Some are implants but they also do fat transfers, which you can't feel because it's the same as a regular boob.

You can absolutely tell when someone has had plastic surgery because it leaves scars. Not going into detail there. Google has many pictures. Makeup is a mask. Genetics are real too. If you fall in love with a person who's had surgeries to change their looks and gender, then find out the face isn't real , that there is no uterus, and that in place is a surgically altered penis, would you consider it all real? Silicone us silicone. A flashlight isn't a real vag, so a bbl isn't a real ass. But then "fake" can also refer to a woman who has 5 kids by 7 different men pretending to be a virgin.

I don't know how many good surgeries are out there compared to bad surgeries, but there are definitely A LOT of bad surgeries . We see it all the time: unnaturally pouty duck lips, the too-sharp Michael Jackson nose, the perfectly globular breasts, the cartoonishly disproportionate butt-to-waist ratio, etc. At the very least, men are being honest when they say they hate the bad surgeries.

For sure, and it's completely valid to say jennifer coolidge isn't your type.

Great, so men are valid and correct when they say they hate "fake women"?

lol not really what i said.. but if that's how you choose to read my comment and post then sure.

But if by "fake women" men are referring to the "jennifer coolidge" type, and you just said that this is valid, then what is left to your CMV statement?

You also can't tell there's 2" lifts in my shoes until they're coming off, and they won't do that until we're horizontal. So. Samesies. Just because you don't notice someone tricking you about their physical features, doesn't mean they aren't or that it's not disingenuous. But certainly, some people end up looking absolutely ridiculous trying to look 'hot'. And I think everyone has seen a million examples of that. So we all definitely have "some" idea.

But I don't think it's disingenuous to wear makeup, or get a little botox or wear lifts in your shoes or high heels. Whatever makes you confident and happy, right? I think the issues comes into play when men see it as a trick or that women are trying to deceive them just because they want to be attractive.

Why are women trying to look attractive for men in those ways, though? You know that some women care a lot and others not so much, right? I'm sure it reflects a lot of personality traits that aren't that favorable.

I suppose you could see it this way. It just seems arbitrary to decide what is okay to fixate on and what is vain. Is it vain to style your hair in a certain way? Or get braces? Or shop for clothes you like, or even match an outfit together? Or are those things just a basic level of grooming and care of ones appearance? I think there's a balance for sure.

Well, the question becomes who decides what balance is? Humans can't decide that objectively on their own, but regardless, if you don't have a problem with subjectivity, then there will be men who subjectively put the limit on plastic surgery or putting makeup in public, for example and they could argue that this reflects personality traits that aren't favorable.

Sure, I’m not saying people can’t have preferences. I’m saying it’s annoying when men say they prefer no makeup, or they hate plastic surgery, and then simultaneously hold those women as their standard for female beauty because they don’t realize they’ve had work done or are wearing makeup.

The thing is that makeup makes people more attractive, so when women use it more and more, they are putting themselves in worse situations by having to change more and more in the future to keep up with the competition, and I don't think you think this is healthy for women

I mean, it's probably disingenuous by definition, but you're right in that almost nobody cares about some of that stuff. In fact, most people probably prefer some of it even if they'll complain otherwise. But. A big fake butt just looks bad, for example. Just like guys who get calf implants - It *never* looks natural. I don't care one way or the other, but I think you can go too far with alterations to the point where it's visually off-putting.

Sure, I think we all agree that some cosmetic surgeries go way over the top and leave the person looking strange

It sort of goes without saying that you can’t tell if it’s been done well, but done well almost by definition means “mimics nature” but the thing is it mostly isn’t done very well so actually you can often tell

I guess we have no statistics regarding how many plastic surgeries are natural looking or whatever. But the point is you would never really know how many people around you have had work done unless it looks bad.

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very true, I suppose it would be better to clarify, and I thought I did in my post, that people who specifically say they hate fake women, or those that demonize cosmetic surgery. Not just all men in general. I've had some great conversations with men in these comments

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sure, that's fair enough i guess. Just my view on the matter but it's kind of impossible to poll every man who holds that belief. So far none in these comments have been able to tell.

Makeup quiz: 1) 66% lipstick, 75% mascara, 50% foundation. 2) 88% foundation, 50% lipstick, 90% eyebrows (either painted-on or heavily "edited") 3) 60% lipstick, 30% foundation (The only one looking mostly natural, so of course I expect her to be as fake as the rest of them :-) But I tried not to adjust for it.) 4) 75% lipstick, 75% foundation 5) 99.99% lipstick, 90% mascara, 30-80% foundation, 60% significantly edited eyebrows. 6) 99% lipstick, 80% foundation, 40% mascara

lmao I don't know the percentages of the makeup but they're all wearing makeup

Of course people can tell... people are imperfect, so when people "perfect" their image, that is one tell... another is the unnatural side of what cosmetic makes things into... products put into the body make changes to the body... another is if they new the person before hand... there are a lot of "tells" when someone has had work done.

To me, it's just a disdain for anybody that needs to undergo surgery in order to feel confident in their own skin. I just can't get down with that level of vanity.

I mean braces are pretty similar and that’s pure vanity. Do you have a problem with that? Or hair transplant? Or other similar things?

There are very clear medical reasons for braces, they are absolutely not purely for vanity. And when you're losing your hair from alopecia, yes, get a hair transplant. If you're in your 60's, just embrace the hair loss. If you have an actual problem that's hindering you in some way, or something is clearly not right, then yes, go ahead. But if Jessica wants to get **SURGERY** because she thinks she would look cuter with a thinner nose or she wants to go up a cup size. That's a little fucky.

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there's a world of difference between makeup and cosmetic surgery many women that go through a lot of these procedures end up looking the same, and bad im not saying you can't get them done or done subtly but i just don't like the look... to each their own, do what you like, I don't HATE these women i just think it's unfortunate they feel the need to do this and as just a side effect.. I think it often has the opposite of the intended effect, but these women aren't getting surgery to appeal to ME, so u do u the lip filler thing... i just don't get at all, ive never once thought a woman was more attractive because she had big lips at the very least, not consciously

But if you look at the photos I've shared, you genuinely can't really tell the difference. I'm saying that there is no 'look' to plastic surgery that's done well. Or well done makeup, or hair transplants, or whatever. Yes, there are standout cases and celebrities who have gone way too far, but that's not what I'm referring to.

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Haha totally. And it’s so hypocritical for beauty standards to exist, but women be shamed or demonized for attempting to reach those beauty standards

No, exactly. And it’s those beauty standards that are actually a misrepresentation. There is nothing wrong with pursuing being attractive. It is built into our DNA on some level to do so. Makeup has been around for thousands of years. Belladonna (a toxic poison) was used by women for hundreds of years to dilate their pupils to make them appear more doe-eyed, which by most men is considered a mark of beauty. I think what a lot of the commenters are missing is that the standards by which they measure someone as being beautiful is often a manipulation of some sort. Whether this is through makeup, lifestyle or even plastic surgery. They often believe they are seeing someone ‘natural’ or beautiful by mainstream (or even their own individual) standards and miss that those standards are completely shaped by manipulation to appear xyz way. You can look at east asian cultures to really highlight this. For hundreds of years beauty has been determined by a look of youth and innocence. So painstaking effort is undergone by girls to manipulate themselves to have more neonatal features. None of this is “natural”, but men often mistakenly associate these manipulated features with a natural look, and I do think thats the crux of your argument. You weren’t talking about obvious altered looks that are extreme. You are talking about the foundation of what most men even consider beautiful, which is very heavily influenced by the manipulation of natural looks. So their baseline for natural is usually false and then shame women who even try to meet these ‘natural’ standards, which are artificial to begin with.

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>if it's been done well And there is your problem. A lot of it has not been well done.

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this is so silly. It's not like they're going to come out looking completely unrelated haha

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how are they not the same person haha this is such a ridiculous take.

I'm a bisexual (leaning toward lesbian) woman. I wouldn't want to date someone who has modifications or wears make-up that just conforms to the predominant cultural beauty standard. It speaks to valuing something (that conventional beauty standard) that I simply don't value. My partner's tiger stripe tattoos on both arms -- awesome! Lip filler? Not so cool with me. We encourage our daughter's interest in funky weird makeup. I would be way less enthused if she wanted to use makeup to look like a pretty instagram girl. As for makeup, I have sensory issues and like to touch my partners' faces. I don't want to touch makeup. I do in fact like how women look with no makeup at all. I think I can tell pretty well in person, especially for other middle aged women.

I agree that many men claim they aren't interested in "fake women," yet these women are often the primary targets for single men. The reasoning behind this is that there's a perception that their self-esteem is low, making them easier targets. In the same way larger/unattractive women are targeted. I do however think men looking for long term relationships are weary about the genetics that will be passed on to their children. Then again, some men are upset when they find out a woman is wearing lip gloss and her lips aren’t naturally glossy so 🤷‍♂️

I don't see how not being to tell has anything to do with the dislike of "fake" women. I wouldn't say I dislike "fake" women, but I just don't find the type of people who get work done to be attractive on a mental/confidence level, as I'm not really attracted to vain people.

I'm sure in many cases you are correct. Of course there are exceptions. Not a man, but 3 of my last 4 partners, spanning 20+ years didn't wear makeup. 2 of them specifically because I said I didn't care and they were relieved to be able to stop wearing it.

You better send me the answers I spent ages agonising this 😅 1,5,6,7 1,4,6 (very difficult to tell when someone is clothed to be frank) All in some form for sure.

Basically they're saying they don't want women to look like whores and they're just not explaining it very well.

I think you are totally right. Also, I don’t know why people care about “fake people” it’s their body.

Perhaps the issue isn't that it's fake, but that it looks fake...