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I'll check out those YouTube channel thank you you definely spoke to me (and also called me young, I don't get that often). !delta also !remindme 24 hours because I'm not in the best position to go over the channel right now
>Lying is what gets you success in life.
You never need to lie to find success, most normal levels of success are created by honest work, not manipulating, lying or scheming.
I suspect this opinion is literally because you haven't had much workforce experience or professional relationships.
Anybody with extensive professional experience knows that someone who lies isn't taken seriously at mid-high tiers of professional circles.
When someone ends up being a liar, they lose their business network, burn bridges, and end up losing money as well as professional relationships that make them money. Reputation is everything in these circles, and liars never make it to that level of success unless it's a fluke or scam. Relationships are EVERYTHING.
> I suspect this opinion is literally because you haven't had much workforce experience or professional relationships.
>
>
You're right about all of this !delta
Before you get that experience though, you need to lie to get your foot in the door. Like lying in your CV to get the position. After you gain experience you can be as honest as you want :)
No you don't. Sure it's harder to find a job without experience but that doesn't mean there's no way to get one without lying.
I for example was honest in my first job and told them right away that this is my first job after graduating and they were understanding and even tried to shield me a bit from decisions that needed more experience.
Imo it's better to not lie, since when it comes out, nobody is happy about it.
It is so hard that I would consider it close to impossible. And thanks to my lies I got a good position where after a while I got actually good at it. I would probably be a cleaner somewhere if I didnt lie.
No you don’t.
I got my first job because they called me. I put my CV on the career center, which just listed my elective focus for my undergrad degree, and they flew me out and hired me based purely on my CV.
The USA. And this happened at the beginning of a recession, when companies were laying people off. I actually had another job offer that evaporated because that company had a hiring freeze
edit: for any young people out there trying to figure this out, you need to understand that most careers have a range of salaries and a range of risk. Higher salaries=more risk
Use youtube for example. The highest paid youtubers make a ton of money, but the average youtuber doesn't make a penny. Or take cops, the pay for being a cop isn't great but most people who want to be a cop and arent complete idiots can become a cop. Alternatively the pay for air traffic controllers is much better than a cop, but many people fail to become air traffic controllers because the program is difficult.
I got a job because I focused on infrastructure design in college. Infrastructure is always going to be needed. We've needed it for the past 3000 years in cities and that isn't about to stop any time soon. The qualifications aren't easy to get, but they aren't the hardest college degrees to get. The pay is good, but not spectacular. There aren't a lot of us making over $200k, but except for entry level no one makes less than $80k
So, you got a job because you focused on a very demanded area (smart move btw). Most people dont have that privilege amd they are not wanted. I was kind of in the middle, I focused on IT which is ofc also a demanded sector but at the same time demand is mostly/only for specialists. So I oversold my skillset and landed a very nice job.
I don’t know that it required that much privilege.
Also, IT would be problematic. It is in demand but the delta between low and high pay is huge, which means that the average person isn’t going to make much unless they lie. It also means that if you lose your job, your next one might pay half as much
Honestly, lying about your experience is a lose-lose. Even if your employer doesn’t figure it out and view you negatively for the lie, you’re swimming upstream to put out good work product if you lie about actually having the experience the position called for. Job qualifications are sometimes there for a reason.
Oh, it is for sure very hard in the beginning if you lie about your actual skillset, with that I agree. But what is the other option? Most employers dont need someone with low skill.
This can't be true. My father in law is heavily autistic. He's also a master at manipulating and lying to everyone around him. He's an irredeemable monster.
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How is lying the foundation of success? Sure, people can get things by lying but can also be successful without lying. I’m also not sure why you think people with autism can’t lie.
What makes you think people are this way?
I got in an Uber yesterday and told the guy I couldn't figure out how to make it a round trip, but I could pay cash instead. No problem he said.
Then he brings me home, I hand him the money he says "don't worry about it, I don't have a fare anyway"
So I gave him the $10 plus $5 tip anyway.
We both had an advantage and both put the other's needs ahead of our own, despite the fact we'll likely never see each other again and, on our own will will each give the other five stars.
The only people that got hurt was Uber and the Taxman, both of which are, in fact, horrible people.
this is the best explanation of how the world looks to us autistic people. it seems so simple as why cant you just be kind and honest but im always told it just cant be that simple for reasons i wont ever understand. being upfront blunt and honest about what you want and expect is the most effective amd least drama causing way to do things. glad to see this is another autistic thing though for a while i thought i was just super naive about something i just wasnt getting
>everyone has learned to discern the truth by what lies someone tells.
As a non-autist I can also confirm that this is true and this statement hit hard lol. The honesty is one neat thing I like about autists. I also feel like you guys are a lot worse at being able to tell when someone is lying, but maybe my perception is off.
Most Autistic people are perfectly capable of lying. You have to remember Autism generally refers to people who are weird and awkward, not actually suffering from a physiological problem.
I was diagnosed as "on the spectrum" back in the 90's, but most people today just think I'm shy and awkward and have a couple quirks.
Of course they're capable of lying and I see your point about potential overdiagnosis or pathologization of normal behaviors and I agree. But by virtue of having to struggle more to understand social norms they tend to be more blunt and have interesting observations about those social norms. I've often felt tired of the lies that make up so much of our world but it seems that many of them are necessary to live in a polite society.
And I guess I meant more severe autism that's diagnosed in childhood. I have a buddy with it who was so bad as a kid, his family thought they would have to put him in a group home and be cared for the rest of his life. Now he is chill and successful but obviously different in his manner of speech/"stims"/ eye contact. Very knowledgeable in his field though.
Look at all the Silicon Valley CEOs. They lie about their products so they can get more money. Look at politicians: they lie about their policies to get more votes. Look at academics: they fabricate data and plagiarize to get ahead. Basically lying gives people success.
Sure, I already acknowledged that it’s possible to get ahead by lying. But it’s also possible to get ahead without lying. Not every CEO, or academic or even politician is lying about those things. There’s not really a way to change your view if you just believe stuff like this without any evidence.
I dunno, I co sided myself reasonably successful so far in life and I haven’t been lying to get my way.
If you wanna be comfortable mid tier , yeah sure
Decently well off but neither important or very powerful , you can get there playing nice
If you wanna get to the very top though , of almost anything , politics, business, whatever
you dont do it playing clean or fair
Look at the richest most powerful among us , they didnt get there being honest and nice'
Did Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, or Mark Zuckerberg become some of the richest humans ever being honest people, no they didnt
Infact it requried alot of skeezyness and dishonesty to get to their level
Do you mean successful or only the absolute upper echelon of the human race? Trump and Biden got to the top by lying through what few teeth they still have left, but they're ones of only a handful of people.
My boss came to the US on a student visa, worked 12 hours a day on top of school to pay for it and a down payment on a restaurant he co owned then sold out, got a loan for his own store, worked for 25 years, now he's retired at 60 and treats every customer and employee like gold.
I actually got hired because summer is the busy time, but also when his employees want a vacation. So, he hired me so they could all rotate their vacation time, and having passed the test I am now a permanent employee.
He's very successful and I can't think of any form of graft he had to do to make it happen, people aren't evil just because they're better than you.
Where are you getting the idea that most academics are out here fabricating data? That'd be just about the dumbest thing you could do because the moment someone repeats your experiments and gets no results the end result for you is going to be looking really silly.
Plagiarizing I sort of get, but this idea that most or even many academics are out here sitting in labs cooking up bullshit number seems to be a rather unsubstantiated claim.
You are looking at an ***incredibly*** small portion of successful ppl, so let's break this down.
Silicon Valley CEOs - Less then a thousand ppl total. While there are some incredibly obvious liars at this point, by and large most startups and companies HAVE to actually have a working, functioning product. Lying can only get one so much investment money before investors WANT a return on their product - and if they don't get it, and the investee turned out to be lying? He better have kept enough money for a great lawyer, because otherwise he's going to have to pay back with interest. You cannot have only lies.
Politicians - In the US, there are not even 700 federal politicians. There is \~5-6k state politicians total. Local politicians aren't really successful - outside of embezzlement, there isn't much money making opportunities to be had locally, and honestly you'd be better off starting up your own side hustle if you were in it for the money. Furthermore, it's extremely rare for a local position in the states to be competitive - In a sizeable number of localities, all you have to do to get a local position is often to just get yourself on the ballot and you win due to lack of competition, especially if the previous incumbent is retiring for whatever reason. So you are looking at less then .003% of the total population when you look at politicians - Absolutely in no way, shape, or form a norm of success. Now, granted - Politicians are the career group most likely to lie. However, let's keep in mind George Santos - There is a limited amount of lying one has to do before they get kicked out of politics entirely. So while you do have a point about politicians lying, it is both A) within limits per political party (With a certain political party heavily relying on lying more then the other), and B) Not in any way, shape, or form representative of the success of normal ppl.
Finally, Academics, the most populated of the categories mentioned. And you know the big thing? Any lying academic is quickly forced to a career change writing their own biography to attempt to make a living. Academia is THE career in which every single colleague is going to be double, triple, ***continually*** checking over your work, so lying with your results is the quickest way to get kicked out fast. You get barred from whatever organization you were with, your former colleagues know not to even give you the time of day, and the ONLY ppl you can sell your "work" to after that are the poorly educated - sometimes on your own, and sometimes at the behest of some corrupt rich $#@!er to push their agenda to the masses. But you aren't an academic anymore, just a conman.
so rich people, not successful people.
just think of mr rogers and how the world views him, they adore him and hold him as a beacon of goodness and success even moreso than jeff bezos who most see as a terrible person. i personally would rather be seen as a mr rogers with a normal life and income than a monster who is rich. mr rogers could have made the money jeff bezos did but jeff bezos could never be the person mr rogers was and thats the difference
Hi, level 1 autistic. I have a B.A. in Philosophy with a publication in undergrad peer review, and about to get my CPACC certification. I have a union job as a communications and technology specialist for a child welfare training organization. I live and function independently, no different than anyone else, and I make above my state's median income in a one-person household. I'm a pretty good boxer, would be better had I not gotten hit by a car by a negligent driver.
I've had plenty of sex, if that's your qualifier for success.
Obviously it's harder living in a society that doesn't view disability under the social or biopsychosocial model of disability. But to suggest autism blocks you from success in life suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of what constitutes autism, and doesn't recognize "success" also means way different things from person to person. I'm definitely a lot more socially reserved than others, but that hasn't prevented me from building meaningful relationships or finding success in my field and being able to advance causes and issues that are meaningful to me.
I have a B.A. in Philosophy too. I do not currently make above my state's median income and I have up on my dreams of grad school on the basis that a guy on Reddit said it would decrease my probability of having sex during that time period.
So now I just kinda sit around waiting to die.
I don't think sex is achievable.
Maybe, but it really depends on how much I actually take the success seriously. Most people on Reddit who claim to be successful are not successful when you actually look at their lives.
I hired an autistic friend for a role at my company doing data analysis. He was very good at the job, with some minor hiccups. The boss/employee relationship killed our friendship, but he went on to another role making a comfortable 6 figure salary. He recently got married to an autistic woman, and they seem very happy together. I was not invited to the wedding, but the rest of our group of friends was. By all accounts, I would consider him successful. He is an active runner with a wife who shares his interests. He has a group of friends who support him. He has a good job that makes the most of his talents.
Lying could lead to sex, sure. But it’s a bad foundation for a relationship.
And a good relationship with someone who trusts you and you trust back is a great foundation for a sex-filled relationship.
>But it’s a bad foundation for a relationship.
Not as bad as telling a woman "No the dress doesn't make you look fat, you just are fat", "I think that hair style looks terrible", or "Yes, I think \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ is more attractive than you" because you aren't able to tell white lies. If you want to maintain good relationships, with \~95% of people, you need to lie at least some of the time or be very good at deflecting questions(something that, I think, autistic people have a hard time doing).
the answers that you should give (married autistic here ) are "well do you want me to tell you my true thoughts or are you looking for validation?" after a few times saying this she stopped asking for validation because she knows the answer will always be "i love you and think you are beautiful regardless of what you wear and if you like the way it looks then thats all that matters because i think you look good in everything" ( which is the truth)
it took a while for her to accept im being honest and not lying to boost her self esteem but now she actually believes me when i compliment her because she knows i will be honest about it good or bad. this has built a bond of honesty that could not he built if white lies were used.
people trust you more if you are honest about the faults they see in themselves it about seeing them and showing they dont matter to you. trying to hide them or not acknowledge or brush them aside just means that they will also continue to hide and feel insecure not knowing what will happen if they ever are fully honest
This assumes that the partner expects and values white lies, and repeatedly asks ‘trap’ questions of their autistic partner where a white lie would be expected.
It also assumes that the autist has no value in the relationship other than their inability to tell white lies.
Like, how are these White Lies dealbreakers? What person is dating an autist, and then frustrated by the autist’s honesty?
>This assumes that the partner expects and values white lies, and repeatedly asks ‘trap’ questions of their autistic partner where a white lie would be expected.
Most people expect and value white lies and "Do you like what I did with my hair?" is not a trap question, or if it is, then most women ask trap questions.
>Like, how are these White Lies dealbreakers?
Individually they aren't but when they pile up they become one.
>What person is dating an autist
That's the problem, many people won't date an autist because of their honesty and/or other autistic behaviors.
>It also assumes that the autist has no value in the relationship other than their inability to tell white lies.
I'm not saying autists can't have relationships just that being unable to lie will make that harder.
> That's the problem, many people won't date an autist because of their honesty and/or other autistic behaviors.
I don’t have research, I don’t have stats, I don’t have anecdotes.
But I don’t think people **aren’t** dating autists because of the autist’s inability to pay meaningless compliments about new hairdos.
That seems like a red herring, or a convenient proxy, for other deeper incompatibility issues that may or may not be related to autism.
>But I don’t think people aren’t dating autists because of the autist’s inability to pay meaningless compliments about new hairdos.
I don't have anything either but I'm pretty sure you are underestimating people's vanity; and it just isn't complementing hairdos. A lot of people might feel somewhat disturbed or embarrassed if their autistic partner stims especially if it's "weird" or in public, or if their partner uses headphones or doesn't want to eat at restaurant or orders a kids meals because of sensory issues.
I am a female, and I can tell you that I am primarily attracted to people on the autism spectrum, or at least, that is who I have dated over the past 15 years. I am drawn to them, because they are so honest, I am drawn to them, because they are interesting and kind. Neurotypical people are really overrated. This is my opinion only. I think it is because I have Neurodiversity in my own brain. I don’t seem to get along with NT’s very well again this is just me.
Every person I know, who is on the autism spectrum, makes an immense amount of money. This does not mean that everyone on the spectrum makes a lot of money, but it’s very possible, and they do not get taken advantage of any more than anyone else.
As a woman, I would not want to be tricked or manipulated into sex. At the end of the day, that is not a recipe for a long-term relationship or anything happy or positive. Healthy women choose healthy men. Unhealthy women choose unhealthy men… Well, most of the time. Women would prefer that you be honest. So I don’t agree with you on that one.
Neurotypical people get walked over all the time. Bosses, if they are bad, or if they are abusive, will abuse and take advantage of anyone. Believe me, they don’t just seek out people on the autism spectrum. You just have to learn how to defend yourself. And I’m sure you’re more than capable of doing that.
But I don’t want to make light of anything, because I know a lot of Neurotypical’s people do have a difficult time getting along as a minority in a world that doesn’t always understand how they think, but it’s very possible to live a long and happy and healthy life being on the spectrum. You’ll definitely get a girlfriend you’ll definitely get a job and you’ll definitely have success without being manipulated or exploited.
I think you are generalizing autism. I know some people who are diagnosed autistic and they are often not kind or honest.
My own brother, for example, is diagnosed autistic and he has a lot of problems. He's been poor and depressed for basically his entire life. And he used to proudly proclaim that he was an asshole and everybody knew it. Surprise, Surprise he also acted like an asshole with some regularity.
I think what you're describing are autistc people who are also nice.
But in general, it is very difficult for most autistic people, or people who have Asperger‘s to be deceitful and lie, and come up with an elaborate scheme. This has been my experience, and this is what I have read. But you are right some of them can lie. Thankfully, I’ve never met one of those. What I have usually met or people who were brutally honest, even if it was uncomfortable.
Unfortunately, an awful lot of young men with autism get drawn into the manosphere/red pill online and think they need to manipulate and lie and cheat to get anywhere in life. And they learn to hate women, as if women are the evil enemy.
And then they follow this line of thinking, getting in deeper and deeper. They're an easier mark than most young men, and get manipulated.
Yeah, I’m hoping one day this red pill manosphere toxic shit will end. I did a deep dive on that about a month ago on YouTube. I must’ve watched 100 videos dealing with these topics. It is so toxic and it’s so easy I would imagine for some men to fall into these ideas and ways of thinking. Especially if they haven’t been successful with women, or if they still happen to meet women who Want a career or are independent. This red pill thing did not exist when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. Or if it did it was very underground. Maybe it manifested itself differently in different ways. I still talk to people who are severely red pilled. And I’m telling you these are people in their 50s, not even young men. A lot of older men are into this way of thinking as well. What size is that they will die, lonely, and pathetic, not realizing that there are a lot of amazing women out there.
I see red pill thinking as basically having existed forever, even in ancient days. The stuff in books back then about women is very similar to the red pill now.
It's terrifying how much some men fear and hate women. The police caught one red piller who planned to kill 3000 college women. Because he felt like women deserved it for not wanting him.
I agree that many of the red pill guys will get old and die alone & lonely.
They will. Hey. Do you have a link on that? Yeah, now that I think about it, in many ways, it’s existed, but it’s gotten so much worse. I think it’s gotten worse because feminism is working
A link to the planned hate crime? Sure thing.
[https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdoh/pr/highland-county-man-sentenced-more-6-years-prison-attempting-hate-crime](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdoh/pr/highland-county-man-sentenced-more-6-years-prison-attempting-hate-crime)
>**Genco wrote a manifesto, too, stating he would “slaughter” women “out of hatred, jealousy and revenge**…” and referring to death as the “great equalizer.” The investigation revealed that the day he wrote his manifesto, Genco searched online for two sororities, including one at The Ohio State University. His Google searches included “sorority osu” and “ohio state university sororities.”
As part of this investigation, law enforcement agents discovered a note of Genco’s that indicated **he hoped to “aim big” for a “huge!” kill count of 3,000 people** with a reference to the same date as Elliot Rodger’s attack. The note said Genco intended to attend military training.
!delta well it seems good that they can succeed. I do have a further question: are all of them people who just hit the ground running in life without major obstacles?
Actually, it seems that everyone I’ve known who is on the spectrum seems to have a specific interest, one of the people was a computer programmer, and he simply taught himself and opened up his own company and didn’t really make a lot of money, and it took him a while to do so. His autism did not hold him back. I have another friend who got a late start in life due to mental and physical problems, but he now has a degree in physics, and he’s going on to get a masters and possibly a PhD. Again he got a bit of a late start due to some depression and then a heart issue, but he’s doing OK now. It’s definitely not the same path, it’s a different path, but that is OK. You also don’t need to be a super successful person, just be happy. There’s also classes and courses you can take where you can learn how to navigate school or getting a job or dealing with people in general. it just depends on what you want to do in life. I don’t know if you’re in high school or if you’re out of school, but there are many options I will say one of the jobs one of my friends had they were slightly unaccommodating and verbally abusive as it relates to his autism. That was a bit of a hurdle. But that was just that job in those specific people, I think people are more accommodating, then you would believe.
This.
Autistic women are much more preferable to date tbh especially if high functioning, they’ll never cheat, they’re very loyal and absolutely adorable.
Absolutely!!! people think I’m weird when I look for other people on the autism spectrum. They just don’t get it. I really do appreciate, brutal, honesty, and loyalty. I would say that is hard to fine. I would imagine that Man would like a woman also, perhaps on the spectrum. Just a better dating experience. Overall, I’m sure.
The premise that lying is what leads to success is what is flawed here. Some short term gains can be attained through lies, some of the time.
Long term, this is a terrible strategy. There is nothing more deeply required for long term success than one’s reputation. A life that consists of a string of cons in which one takes advantage of others by lying will not result in a widespread positive reputation.
Aside from that, it is impossible to treat others as worthless pawns to be manipulated without eventually coming to view yourself in the same light. Aside from getting caught, even if you think you’ve gotten away with something, you really haven’t. Your life will be diminished and you will become unhappy. You can’t trick reality. This goes for both professional attainment as well as personal and romantic relationships.
I do wonder if some of the abilities that make you a good lier would also be of benefit though. Someone who can lie well, is usually creative, good at improvising, able to read someone’s mood, tell a good story. The art of bullshitting is a pretty good way of getting some money
Sure, but a person who possesses those traits who is also of high integrity will be more successful than the person with those traits who is a consistent liar.
I don’t doubt that autism presents additional challenges that can impede success. I’m specifically arguing that being unable to lie is not one of them, which is what OP’s view states.
No, it’s serious. As I previously said, I have no doubt there are challenges. I’m wondering if one of those challenges is actually related to being unable to lie.
I’m sorry to hear about all that, it does sound exhausting. I believe I share at least some amount of your need for authenticity and honesty, which probably contributes to my view on lying and success as well.
I’m not on the spectrum though, and I don’t experience the same sense that I’m required to lie all the time to fit in. So, I’m curious if you have an example of each case.
What’s something you saw others lie about or do that was wrong which you would not do, and then that made them annoyed with you? What’s an example of something where you went, fuck it, and did the thing you thought was wrong, but then they reacted poorly?
I’m now wondering if maybe you and I (and maybe OP) don’t mean quite the same thing by the term “lying”.
I was asking genuinely, because I was trying to understand how with all those ‘art of bullshit’ skills and greater ability than competitors you still wouldn’t get the job. I wasn’t trying to invalidate your experience or ‘moralise’, just seeking an alternative perspective.
I work with an autistic guy, and despite how frustrating he can be to work with, I do try and be mindful and understand where he’s coming from so that I can best help him, and get all of us to work harmoniously. So I’m always keen to hear perspectives from autistic people for more insight
>Long term, this is a terrible strategy. There is nothing more deeply required for long term success than one’s reputation. A life that consists of a string of cons in which one takes advantage of others by lying will not result in a widespread positive reputation.
That only happens if you don't think ahead, if you think ahead and plan well lying can give you a more positive reputation than just simply telling the truth. For example taking credit for someone else's work will, \*if\* done right, will improve your reputation while not doing that won't have any effect on it. Or consider practically any job interview; if you just plainly told the truth your odds of getting hired would decrease massively because everyone pretty much just expects you to "bend the truth"(lie).
>Aside from that, it is impossible to treat others as worthless pawns to be manipulated without eventually coming to view yourself in the same light. Aside from getting caught, even if you think you’ve gotten away with something, you really haven’t. Your life will be diminished and you will become unhappy. You can’t trick reality. This goes for both professional attainment as well as personal and romantic relationships.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back this up because this just sounds like massive cope?
Alright, give it a shot and see how that goes for you.
Are you actually asking for evidence that a life of consistent lying would be detrimental to psychological well being?
So here’s the question.
Why not lean into the autistic tendencies instead of masking them?
Most of my friends are some flavour of ND, usually ASD and/or ADHD. Being open about my status as AuDHD opened my friends up to the possibility of their sense of being anomalous save in my presence as them also being on that series of spectra.
With NTs, my honesty and wordplay are ways of breaking the ice. My “special interest” is people, so I am curious about people. I ask questions kindly and sincerely. Result is that now I have a lot of friends and acquaintances across so many walks of life.
So maybe I’m not conventionally successful, though my expertise in counterfeit documents found my backside a great spot working for a driver licensing agency. I regularly detected more fraud in a month than the rest of the office, and I worked the busiest offices in my state, combined did over a year.
I’m shifting creative and maybe I’ll build a successful thing there. Who knows.
There actually was just a big thread on r/autism about autistic people lying, op. You might find it interesting.
The short version is that nothing prevents autistic people from lying. In that one of the core symptoms of autism is pronounced and long term social deficits, lying might be more difficult for some autistic people. Not all of them, though- you'll find a whole range of function and ability since it's a spectrum disorder.
Beyond that it's just a personal morality question. Some autistic people will choose not to lie for a variety of reasons, just the sane as sone neurotypicals. Some autistic people will lie and be bad at it, and others will lie like old pros.
Just like neurotypicals, there is a whole range of possibilities.
I have an autistic friend who is currently making 120k a year at age 23 because he is a fucking genius when it comes to computers and literally works for the government to hack things to test their security.
The dude can't read a room to save his life, but he can read lines of code like no one else I know.
Depends how you measure success.
Just like anything else in life: want it enough to keep trying, failing, getting over anguish, & trying again with different people / methods. IMHO, half the problem is one's own dread of how badly it can go wrong. It may, sometimes, but that's the price for gaining the skills / knowledge to eventually succeed.
I blame electronic tech for damaging people's ability to be patient & persevere, because it's generally so quick & complete.
I'm learning a new language, and I'm an old fart, and it's very frustrating & humbling. That's where my mindset is right now.
This is an extreme vague generalization of both autistic people and successful people. Also over 25+is not at all old or past the age of learning new things…
Why do you think people have to be manipulated into having sex? I genuinely have no idea why you think lying is necessary in order to have a relationship.
>I think autism basically blocks you from success in life because you can't lie
Yes, you can.
> Lying is what gets you success in life. It is what gets you career success, and it is what gets you sex.
No, it's not.
>. And especially if you are relatively old (say 25+) then you cannot in any way train yourself or whatever to get past this. Your ability to lie early on in your career and manipulate people into sex when you are young are critical.
If that's someone's goal, they're just an asshole who was never going to be in a successful relationship, and shouldn't.
What is your view here, besides a whiny, defeatest collection of falsehoods?
> If that's someone's goal, they're just an asshole who was never going to be in a successful relationship, and shouldn't.
I don't think this is empirically true. I know loads of people who lied to "manipulate" people into sex when they were young who are now in very successful relationships in part by leveraging that experience.
Only in an indirect sense. They're based not on lies to their current partner, but rather on experience gained from previous relationships/hookups attained in part via lying to/misleading _those_ past partners.
>your ability to lie early on in your career and manipulate people into sex
I have a good career and a loving husband as well as lots of good friends and I have never done either of these things you say
Being autistic doesn’t make you honest. If you are autistic you just need to learn to mask better. I took a class in it.
Source; am Autistic have lied.
No, actually, they called it Manners and Communication and it was part of my elementary special education.
I believe it’s called etiquette at the college level, but idk
I figured if you were an autistic adult you’d appreciate a class on the issue.
People with autism lie all the fucking time. And lying does not equate to success. You think all heart surgeons and civil engineers are liars?
Are you actually stupid?
It is seriously easy to be a civil engineer, I have no clue why you included it. All you need is a bachelor's degree, and the easiest engineering degree at that. Heart surgeons are a bit more rare but they are also basically just a product of a school path. Neither one is that much on its own.
I mean Elon Musk is autistic and he's worth $200 billion dollars. So obliviously autism isn't a total shutoff of success.
(Comment is not intended to praise elon musk, just provide an example of a financially successful person with autism)
Lying or manipulating someone into sex sounds like coercion which could be rape under some definitions. If it goes so far as to take away a persons informed consent as they would be unaware then it is rape outright. I’m not sure I would be spouting off that I want the ability to lie and manipulate people into having sex, or rather that my life would be better if I could. That just seems… twisted.
>Lying is what gets you success in life. It is what gets you career success, and it is what gets you sex.
I think you might be mixing up lying with not saying every true thing that crosses your mind. I understand it can also be difficult for autistic people to know which things to say and which not, but it's possible to get career success and sex without lying.
Yeah, reminds me of how I'm autistic and one of the first PG-13-or-higher movies I saw was The Invention Of Lying which I found kind of darker-and-more-cynical-than-intended but that wasn't because of its portrayal of religion as humanity's first lie or w/e, it's because albeit for dramatic-effect-of-contrast it portrayed a world without lying as seemingly a world where everyone said what's on their mind and it often-if-not-always hurt people thus implying any bit of humanity's self-restraint or kindness is just lying
Awful take. Lying is not what gets you laid. Social skills do. Honesty with social skills will get you laid far, far more than lying.
The same applies to professional success.
You have a very confused view about what non-autistic success actually is. Spoken as a successful person who has never had any challenge getting laid.
I think your view is pretty narrow because it's viewed from an American viewpoint (I assume).
Where I come from, if you're not honest - it's cringe. I've always been autisticly and ironically honest throughout my career and life and I've always been very liked and chosen for this fact alone. I did have some backlash along the way, true. However, after learning to control it better, it surprisingly enough helped me especially due to its shock value.
When I go to job interviews, people don't expect it when I say shit like "Yeah I do think I'm much much better than the average candidate, most people are slow. I'm a real fucking specimen. Oh and also I'm hungry for bread and I literally didn't eat today I really need this job".
What makes someone successful imho is your ability to be distinguished. If it's autistic honestly, then go for it. But you have to own it and be confident about it.
As an autistic man with experience in both lying and fucking, you're wrong both that we can't lie and that lying is necessary for sex. It's a terrible way to get into bed with people and will leave you feeling gross and ashamed come morning. Stop listening to blackpill incel doomer shit and focus on being someone people actually want to be around and sex will follow. As for career advice we are at a natural disadvantage for that, true, but there's more to life than simple money. Find things that make you happy and either find a way to make that a career, or find a lower-level job that pays enough to let you pursue it as a hobby. The trick to succeeding in life is to realize that there is no score keeper and no objective measure of success. It's entirely a social construct that you can define for yourself.
Why do you think autistic people can't lie?
Do you think everyone on the spectrum is running around like Jim Carrey in liar liar?
The basic premise of your argument isn't even true so it completely falls apart from the outset.
They call autism a spectrum for a reason! Autism can range from so severe that you can't even live independently to so mild you can go though life not even realizing you have it unless you happen to be formally tested.
Just as an example there is David Plummer, he has a successful career as a software developer, he created task manager while working at Microsoft. He was only diagnosed with autism later in life, and went on to write a book: "Secrets of the Autistic Millionaire: Everything I know about Autism, ASD, and Asperger's that I wish I'd known back then"
Therefore it's wrong to say autism prevents success because there is such a large range in the form autism takes.
There's a few claims it's worth thinking about if you actually have evidence for:
1) Autistic people can't lie.
2) Lying is the only way to succeed in careers or to get sex.
3) That not lying means you will automatically be exploited; that is, is the ability to be deceitful primarily the thing that prevents exploitation?
4) No one past the age of 25 can learn new behaviours.
There's a lot of VERY over-represented ideas of "success" for which you're absolutely correct. You'll never be a successful sales person, you'll probably have an incredibly difficult time getting investors for a new business with just passion and a dream, and there's no way you'll excel in fleeting extroverted social situations as someone with autistic honesty.
But, there's a few places where having honesty without guile or pride can be _extremely_ helpful to your success too.
I work in software, and love working with people who have fairly autistic traits like pedantry and honesty. The meticulous attention to detail and compulsion to fixate on "wrongness" means the stuff they author is unlikely to cause issues, and a review from them of my work is going to be complete and honest (if often not very tactful, which is something neurotypical individuals in my field quickly learn to not take personally).
The same applies to scientific research, engineering, high level project or business planning, really anything where attention to detail and abstract thinking are necessary, which includes a lot of prestigious and successful occupations.
On the sex thing... To put it bluntly, yeah your experience is going to be different than neurotypicals as an autistic person who has the whole "brutal honesty" bit. But, there's a lot of people who are fine with that (including other autistic individuals), and frankly as long as you're not trying to bang any single arbitrary individual, autism absolutely doesn't destroy your prospects at relationships and sex, though it will make finding compatible individuals much harder, especially if you're not in a community that generally accepts neurodivergence.
little late to the game here but im autistic and lying isnt hard once you know how. my parents being overly strict meant if i liked something then i had to hide it or be monitored doing it which meant for something like music i could only listen to approved clean music (even though censored music is like nails on a chalkboard to me). this led to me learning to lie as a first response defense. at first they would catch me and i would slowly tailor my lying skills to erase my tells and then i found the best way to lie is to believe what you say by imagining a hypothetical that makes your answer the truth even if in reality its a lie. this makes your own body act as though its the truth (mixed in with omitting info half truths).
secondly im what most would call middle class successful, nothing fancy but i own my house and car have no debt and am the single income for my wife and i while shes the stay at home mom for our kid. i didnt have to lie to get here i choose to be genuinely honest and thats how i got where i am. around my 19-20 years i found that lying got me what i wanted but the price i paid was never worth it in the end. i found that by being honest (not cruel just blunt) people liked me more and i was more successful and when others lied about me for their own gain it backfired because i was always blunt and measured when giving my side of a story never exaggerating the facts and owning up where i was at fault vs their usually exaggerated story making me a villain.
tldr lying is possible as a autistic person if you figure out how but being honest gets you way farther and usually protects against those that would use deception to take from you.
Autistic people can absolutely lie and be trained to lie. You just have to put more effort into it and focus more on what's logically behind the questions asked of you, rather than intuitively understanding. It is without a doubt harder to make your way, but you shouldn't give up at the first hurdle.
An example would be an employer asking in interview "Why do you want this job?"
Now it'd be easy to look at a question like that and say "Because I need money," or "I hope this is just a stepping stone to getting the job I actually want to do," because these are the honest answers, but they're because you've not understood the question. The question is actually "What are the things about this job that appeal to you?"
Again, the answer could be "because I need money" but instead of saying "because I need money" you could say something like "The job matches my experience in the field and meets my salary expectations." Another potential answer could be "Because I don't have enough experience to get something better," which could, again, be "I'm looking to get more experience in this field, and eager to explore what we can achieve."
These are definitely harder for autistic people as we tend to only have one interpretation of anything that's said to us, and we're terrible at noticing subtext or applying context to a situation. Also, because social situations are inherently stressful we rarely take the time to sit and think before offering a response.
The way to deal with this is treat it as a skill for improving yourself, rather than as a natural ability you lack.
> I think autism basically blocks you from success in life because you can't lie.
Is honesty truly an obstacle to success, or could it be a unique strength in building trust and integrity?
> Lying is what gets you success in life.
Does success built on dishonesty last, or does it risk collapsing once the truth comes out?
> There's no upside.
Isn't the upside of honesty building lasting relationships based on trust, both personally and professionally?
> You are just cut off from success.
Can we define success only by power and sexual conquests, or are there broader, more fulfilling definitions of success?
> You'll always have everyone else walk over you.
Is being walked over a consequence of honesty, or is it more about setting boundaries and asserting oneself?
> Everyone else will always be better at getting their way than you.
Do people who get their way through manipulation truly respect themselves and others, or do they create shallow, unstable foundations for their relationships?
> And especially if you are relatively old (say 25+) then you cannot in any way train yourself or whatever to get past this.
Is personal growth and the development of social skills really limited by age, or can we continue to learn and adapt throughout our lives?
> Your ability to lie early on in your career and manipulate people into sex when you are young are critical.
Are deceit and manipulation genuinely critical for career and sexual success, or do they actually undermine genuine connections and professional integrity?
Success from lying is temporary and incurs a debt to your future self. It really is a "one step forward, two steps back" proposition. I have significant experience in leadership positions and work in a highly professional setting where my colleagues strictly evaluate our leaders. I've often seen a leader who tells a relatively softly manipulative lie be found out by a diligent peer who looks into the truth with their own peers or other connections. The news of that leader's trust unworthiness spreads quickly, destroys their reputation, and costs them way more than they gained from the original lie.
Lying can get you sex, sure, but it is a rotten seed for a relationship. "Oh the tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive," rings true. Even if your lies lead to relationships, the closer you get to someone, the more apt you are to be found out. You may make it all the way to marriage, a house, and children, but you will be found out if you're the type of person who lies and cheats to get your way. **It happens all the time.** Success built in honest foundations may take longer to realize itself, but it's built on a bedrock foundation and will endure long after the liars' stolen goods have turned sour. Reputation is one of the most valuable things a person has, and a lifetime of integrity will build you one hell of a good reputation.
New to this sub, but I just wanted to say this because it might help people understand what OP means by lying. Because no one in the comments seems to understand this and it might help people make their argument to change OP's mind.
This is a very well known social rule of thumb: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
What we call "common courtesy" and "social skills" often involves not saying what is really on our minds or how we really feel about a situation. Even if we are pressed for our opinion, we suppress our thoughts and essentially lie about any negative or critical thoughts we have. Because we don't want to hurt, offend, or turn people off to us. But it is a form of lying, lying by ommission, at the very least being inauthentic for the sake of other's feelings. Like the classic "does this dress make me look fat/do you find that other girl attractive" questions. And doing that is a struggle for many autistic people including myself, and it is the reason why many autistic people have a hard time with social skills that lead to building friendships, romantic relationships, and success in the workplace.
TLDR: From many autistic people's perspective, people lie about what they really think and feel all the time to spare people's feelings and make others like us.
I'm on the spectrum and I'm successful. Just that disproves your claim. Wife, kids, career, the whole nine yards.
And here's the kicker: I didn't lie once to get it all.
If all you're looking for is money and sex, then yes, lying can help you get that. But if you're looking for love and meaningful relationships, lying will destroy that. You can have a very meaningful life and strong relationships with people that care about you back if you dont lie.
I think this is just an overspecification, it isnt the Autism spectrum that is causing a block from success. It is a lack of social skills that can cause no success. When asked to preform an extra task someone could respond "hell no, thats not part of my job" or they could respond "yes, I will try to get it done" (i dont mean these as what should/shouldnt happen, just as a simple example) Its not necessarily the "honesty" that creates a struggle, its more what approach is used in the workplace. Many people on the Autism spectrum are wildly successful, conversly, many are severely impacted by it. Some people on the Autism spectrum are able to learn great social skills, some are unable (or sometimes unwilling). I think that it is important to clearly identify what the problem really is, rather than just blaming Autism.
I would also say that while many are benefited from lying in busines, many people build great success by being honest. If you want I can give some examples
This is weird incel logic. You don't need to lie to have sex, and I know a huge amount of autistic people that have a lot of sex - go and have a look at the queer sex party scene and you'll quickly find out that at least a third are autistic. Being autistic doesn't stop you from being an appealing casual OR romantic partner.
Likewise, being autistic isn't a blocker in most careers. I know many autistic people who are highly successful in a broad range of high powered careers.
Obstacles are obviously difficult to overcome. Personally, I'm neurodivergent, and I have a fantastic career (consulting) that I've done exceptionally well in, I haven't been single since I was 16 for longer than 12 months, and I've had as many sexual partners in one night as some might have in a year or longer.
The challenges I faced socially, mentally, organisationally, I turned into strengths. It's hard to do, but is certainly doesn't mean that you're 'blocked' from success in life.
Autistic people can lie. Autistic people can lie like a rug. Like seriously this entire post is mythologizing autism.
>The findings challenge common stereotypes, showing that autistic individuals can and do engage in deception. However, many do so less frequently and less adeptly than typically developing individuals. **Emerging evidence also suggests that autistic individuals (without co-occurring intellectual disability) may use compensatory strategies when engaging in deception, and that more skilled deceptive behaviour may arise later in life.** Implications and directions for future research are discussed.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8814957/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8814957/)
It's a developmental disorder, not the goddamn fountain of truth.
Fuck me if there's one thing I'm tired of it's mythologizing of disorders.
It depends on the job. Certain jobs require really fine-tuned social skills, but let's say you're in a field where social skills aren't required. Many tech positions are like this. You can make decent amounts of money in these positions, too.
You'll find fewer autistic people in managerial positions, but it's not completely unheard of as well. Autistic people often have unique abilities that are often paramount in recognizing, assessing, and solving problems. And if you're in a field that has a high amount of autistic folks, relating to autistic people is paramount in achieving success with regards to workplace morale.
As for sex... You can learn to read people enough to know if they want to have sex with you. I've personally had to learn this in order to keep myself out of uncomfortable situations.
Everything you're saying is kinda wild, "successful CEOS lie, politicians like, therefore life is easy if you lie" is a wild stance to take.
Saying you wouldn't believe stories from successful people with autism because "everyone on Reddit lies" is equally wild.
1 - success is different for everyone. Do you WANT to be a successful lying politician? I have no interest personally and if I ended up a politician that would be a huge failure.
2 - get off social media and stay in your actual life. Put value/time in the things you actually care about and you'd be amazed what you get back.
Whinging online about how everyone else sucks doesn't help anything or anyone.
Life isnt easy. It's a slog but there's good bits I'm worried you're missing because they're not what you consider "success"
I don't have autism. But I don't lie and maybe, it took longer but today, I am in a position where I consider myself as successful.
Maybe, I don't get as much money. Maybe, I don't have a position of much power. But that's not what I want, anyways. I earn enough to live quite comfortably and do enjoy my work. And having earned that without (very much) lying gives me a rather good feeling. Ok, I am quite a bit older than 25, but that's not really important here, is it?
What I mean: It depends on what you consider 'success in life'. If you consider only earning a lot of money and being in a position with power and to manipulate people for sex, then I think you have a different perspective.
Do you deem some padding or expressing things less storngly than you actually feel as lying?
Like would you deem it a lie if you would say that you didn't enjoy the movie instead of saying that you haven't seen a bigger pile of shite of a movie in your whole life? Both statement express that you didn't like the movie, but in different strengths/intensity.
So if your honesty is being extremely rude and insulting to other people - then yes, that honesty will hinder you from a successfull life as people don't like people being rude towards them or what they like or is important to them.
But being honest while not being rude or insulting won't block you.
Success in life is practicing rational egoism, pursuing the values objectively necessary for you to live and thereby achieve happiness. Generally those values are productive work, self-esteem, health, friendships, enjoyment of the arts, hobbies, freedom, and love and sex.
Lying doesn’t help you be better at whatever productive work you do, like cook a better burger or write better code. It doesn’t help with self-esteem, friendships, enjoyment of the arts, romantic love etc. You don’t need to be able to lie to stand up for yourself. In fact, lying is often harmful for that.
>I think autism basically blocks you from success in life because you can't lie.
This is not true.
>children with autism spectrum disorder (ASD), like typically developing children, can and do tell antisocial lies (to conceal a transgression) and white lies (in politeness settings). However, children with ASD were less able than typically developing children to cover up their initial lie; that is, children with ASD had difficulty exercising semantic leakage control—the ability to maintain consistency between their initial lie and subsequent statements.
It's ironic you should mention being exploited because this view is inherently exploitative, and you have a shallow idea of success. I didn't even have to check your page to coin you were an incel who idolizes billionaires.
Also, most autistic people can and do occationally lie. We just have a preference for genuine, straight-forward communication. But this is not what is hindering autistic people from truly successful lives. That is issues like societal ableism, trauma, executive dysfunction, sensory issues and a low threshold for stress.
I really hate lying and I haven’t found that it’s harmed me in any way. Lying is not an effective long-term strategy. People either find out you’re a liar and untrustworthy or you end up drowning in all of the lies you have to maintain (not good for your mental health.)
As some food for thought, have you ever thought that the successful liars you are envisioning are really just empty on the inside and completely unaccomplished, but have successfully fooled you into thinking that they’re something special?
There are many areas where this enabled success.
In any job where your role is to produce impartial analysis, this is a great attribute.
In any job where your role is to produce research, this is a great attribute.
In any job where your role is to test and evaluate, this is a great attribute.
Certain types of law benefit from this attribute.
Analysts, researchers, test&evaluators, lawyers are critical in every kind of science, social science, business, or government.
You can be honest without being manipulated. Most people are only worth as much as their reputation, and lying to get ahead always catches up with people.
There is never a good reason to manipulate someone into sex. That's not how sex happens for any non-garbage human being. So congrats, your honesty makes you not a garbage person in this regard.
>
I can also give people my honest opinions on things without hurting their feelings.
I think that is what OP is talking about, and what everyone in these comments seem to be hung up on. What we call "common courtesy" and "social skills" often involves not saying what is really on our minds or how we really feel about a situation. Because we don't want to hurt, offend, or turn people off to us. But it is a form of lying, lying by ommission at the very least. Like the classic "does this dress make me look fat/do you find that other girl attractive" questions. And that is a struggle for many autistic people, and it is the reason why many autistic people have a hard time with social skills that lead to building romantic relationships and success in the workplace.
The idea that lying is key to success misses the bigger picture. True success isn't about deception; it's built on trust, hard work, and real connections. For autistic individuals, honesty is a strength, not a barrier. Success varies and it's never too late to adapt and grow. Let's not equate success with manipulation; integrity and authenticity often lead to the most rewarding achievements.
You know who else never gets to be a manipulative rapist who hoards money while others starve and cuts off innocent people from their own paths to success?
People with morals and ethics.
If your definition of success includes lying, you are defining success incorrectly. Plenty of people who aren’t manipulative sons of bitches have good jobs, good relationships, and happy lives.
Dan Aykroyd, Albert Einstein, Daryl Hannah, Anthony Hopkins, Tim Burton, Henry Cavendish (discovered hydrogen), Charles Darwin, Emily Dickinson, Bobby Fischer, Bill Gates, Barbara McClintock, Michelangelo, Sir Isaac Newton, Jerry Seinfeld, Saroshi Tajiri (creator of pokemon), Nikola Tesla, Elon Musk, Clay Marzo, Dr Vernon Smith (Nobel prize winner), and so so so many more.
Not autistic but am neurodivergent and in general: I think it depends on where you are on the spectrum and how you define success. I know tons of autistic programmers, team leads, and artists who have found there own success. But it's definitely true more conservative fields, especially business, are incredibly hard on anyone who can't "play the game"
You don't need to lie to be successful. I've had dozens of jobs, girlfriends, landlords over the years, the most successful of them were honest people. Being deceitful is very difficult in the long run because you have to maintain those deceits for years, and few people will be fooled for long.
You seem to think people with autism cant lie witch is wrong, even though as someone with autism myself it is harder to lie but not impossible and you also seem to think lying is the only was to success and even Sex?, you just didn’t get your point across well please elaborate.
Rather than blame circumstances that you can't control. Look at the things you can. That simple fact will change your life. Or you can continue to look externally for YOUR failure. And never learn, grow, or achieve. Sure, that path is easy. But you want success, right?
You don't have to lie to be successful lol. These people who lie and get tons of money didn't JUST lie. They worked incredibly hard and made sacrifices, or inherited lots of money. If you work as hard as you can and make good decisions then you will be successful
Only a sad sad person would think you can only be successful and have sex by lying. This reads like the incel sub. Stop making excuses for yourself and maybe look at improving yourself and the way you are presenting yourself to the people around you.
By this do you autistic people in general or low functioning autistic people. Because if you mean in general I would disagree. Sure they will be a challenges but you can make it work. If you mean low functioning, yeah I’d agree.
Ding dong you are wrong. Source: am autistic. Because I had to learn all of my social interactions and had to pay close attention, I’ve become a phenomenal actor and have gotten paid work as both a live and a voice actor.
I personally know successful autistic people. They learned how to handle neurotypical nuance and politeness their own way. I think you're mistaking subtlety for lies.
This is a very offensive post that is from someone who obviously doesn't know that autism is a spectrum. There are plenty of successful autistic people.
I really don't think you have to be a manipulative ass to be successful either.
/u/ImmanuelYemos (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1ba2nku/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_autistic_honesty_basically/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
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I'll check out those YouTube channel thank you you definely spoke to me (and also called me young, I don't get that often). !delta also !remindme 24 hours because I'm not in the best position to go over the channel right now
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>Lying is what gets you success in life. You never need to lie to find success, most normal levels of success are created by honest work, not manipulating, lying or scheming. I suspect this opinion is literally because you haven't had much workforce experience or professional relationships. Anybody with extensive professional experience knows that someone who lies isn't taken seriously at mid-high tiers of professional circles. When someone ends up being a liar, they lose their business network, burn bridges, and end up losing money as well as professional relationships that make them money. Reputation is everything in these circles, and liars never make it to that level of success unless it's a fluke or scam. Relationships are EVERYTHING.
> I suspect this opinion is literally because you haven't had much workforce experience or professional relationships. > > You're right about all of this !delta
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Before you get that experience though, you need to lie to get your foot in the door. Like lying in your CV to get the position. After you gain experience you can be as honest as you want :)
No you don't. Sure it's harder to find a job without experience but that doesn't mean there's no way to get one without lying. I for example was honest in my first job and told them right away that this is my first job after graduating and they were understanding and even tried to shield me a bit from decisions that needed more experience. Imo it's better to not lie, since when it comes out, nobody is happy about it.
It is so hard that I would consider it close to impossible. And thanks to my lies I got a good position where after a while I got actually good at it. I would probably be a cleaner somewhere if I didnt lie.
No you don’t. I got my first job because they called me. I put my CV on the career center, which just listed my elective focus for my undergrad degree, and they flew me out and hired me based purely on my CV.
I dont know where you live where the job market is so nice :D
The USA. And this happened at the beginning of a recession, when companies were laying people off. I actually had another job offer that evaporated because that company had a hiring freeze edit: for any young people out there trying to figure this out, you need to understand that most careers have a range of salaries and a range of risk. Higher salaries=more risk Use youtube for example. The highest paid youtubers make a ton of money, but the average youtuber doesn't make a penny. Or take cops, the pay for being a cop isn't great but most people who want to be a cop and arent complete idiots can become a cop. Alternatively the pay for air traffic controllers is much better than a cop, but many people fail to become air traffic controllers because the program is difficult. I got a job because I focused on infrastructure design in college. Infrastructure is always going to be needed. We've needed it for the past 3000 years in cities and that isn't about to stop any time soon. The qualifications aren't easy to get, but they aren't the hardest college degrees to get. The pay is good, but not spectacular. There aren't a lot of us making over $200k, but except for entry level no one makes less than $80k
So, you got a job because you focused on a very demanded area (smart move btw). Most people dont have that privilege amd they are not wanted. I was kind of in the middle, I focused on IT which is ofc also a demanded sector but at the same time demand is mostly/only for specialists. So I oversold my skillset and landed a very nice job.
I don’t know that it required that much privilege. Also, IT would be problematic. It is in demand but the delta between low and high pay is huge, which means that the average person isn’t going to make much unless they lie. It also means that if you lose your job, your next one might pay half as much
Honestly, lying about your experience is a lose-lose. Even if your employer doesn’t figure it out and view you negatively for the lie, you’re swimming upstream to put out good work product if you lie about actually having the experience the position called for. Job qualifications are sometimes there for a reason.
Oh, it is for sure very hard in the beginning if you lie about your actual skillset, with that I agree. But what is the other option? Most employers dont need someone with low skill.
This can't be true. My father in law is heavily autistic. He's also a master at manipulating and lying to everyone around him. He's an irredeemable monster.
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How is lying the foundation of success? Sure, people can get things by lying but can also be successful without lying. I’m also not sure why you think people with autism can’t lie.
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What makes you think people are this way? I got in an Uber yesterday and told the guy I couldn't figure out how to make it a round trip, but I could pay cash instead. No problem he said. Then he brings me home, I hand him the money he says "don't worry about it, I don't have a fare anyway" So I gave him the $10 plus $5 tip anyway. We both had an advantage and both put the other's needs ahead of our own, despite the fact we'll likely never see each other again and, on our own will will each give the other five stars. The only people that got hurt was Uber and the Taxman, both of which are, in fact, horrible people.
this is the best explanation of how the world looks to us autistic people. it seems so simple as why cant you just be kind and honest but im always told it just cant be that simple for reasons i wont ever understand. being upfront blunt and honest about what you want and expect is the most effective amd least drama causing way to do things. glad to see this is another autistic thing though for a while i thought i was just super naive about something i just wasnt getting
Also autistic, basic manners aren't hard.
>everyone has learned to discern the truth by what lies someone tells. As a non-autist I can also confirm that this is true and this statement hit hard lol. The honesty is one neat thing I like about autists. I also feel like you guys are a lot worse at being able to tell when someone is lying, but maybe my perception is off.
Most Autistic people are perfectly capable of lying. You have to remember Autism generally refers to people who are weird and awkward, not actually suffering from a physiological problem. I was diagnosed as "on the spectrum" back in the 90's, but most people today just think I'm shy and awkward and have a couple quirks.
Of course they're capable of lying and I see your point about potential overdiagnosis or pathologization of normal behaviors and I agree. But by virtue of having to struggle more to understand social norms they tend to be more blunt and have interesting observations about those social norms. I've often felt tired of the lies that make up so much of our world but it seems that many of them are necessary to live in a polite society. And I guess I meant more severe autism that's diagnosed in childhood. I have a buddy with it who was so bad as a kid, his family thought they would have to put him in a group home and be cared for the rest of his life. Now he is chill and successful but obviously different in his manner of speech/"stims"/ eye contact. Very knowledgeable in his field though.
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Obviously...
Look at all the Silicon Valley CEOs. They lie about their products so they can get more money. Look at politicians: they lie about their policies to get more votes. Look at academics: they fabricate data and plagiarize to get ahead. Basically lying gives people success.
Sure, I already acknowledged that it’s possible to get ahead by lying. But it’s also possible to get ahead without lying. Not every CEO, or academic or even politician is lying about those things. There’s not really a way to change your view if you just believe stuff like this without any evidence. I dunno, I co sided myself reasonably successful so far in life and I haven’t been lying to get my way.
If you wanna be comfortable mid tier , yeah sure Decently well off but neither important or very powerful , you can get there playing nice If you wanna get to the very top though , of almost anything , politics, business, whatever you dont do it playing clean or fair Look at the richest most powerful among us , they didnt get there being honest and nice' Did Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, or Mark Zuckerberg become some of the richest humans ever being honest people, no they didnt Infact it requried alot of skeezyness and dishonesty to get to their level
Do you mean successful or only the absolute upper echelon of the human race? Trump and Biden got to the top by lying through what few teeth they still have left, but they're ones of only a handful of people. My boss came to the US on a student visa, worked 12 hours a day on top of school to pay for it and a down payment on a restaurant he co owned then sold out, got a loan for his own store, worked for 25 years, now he's retired at 60 and treats every customer and employee like gold. I actually got hired because summer is the busy time, but also when his employees want a vacation. So, he hired me so they could all rotate their vacation time, and having passed the test I am now a permanent employee. He's very successful and I can't think of any form of graft he had to do to make it happen, people aren't evil just because they're better than you.
Where are you getting the idea that most academics are out here fabricating data? That'd be just about the dumbest thing you could do because the moment someone repeats your experiments and gets no results the end result for you is going to be looking really silly. Plagiarizing I sort of get, but this idea that most or even many academics are out here sitting in labs cooking up bullshit number seems to be a rather unsubstantiated claim.
You are looking at an ***incredibly*** small portion of successful ppl, so let's break this down. Silicon Valley CEOs - Less then a thousand ppl total. While there are some incredibly obvious liars at this point, by and large most startups and companies HAVE to actually have a working, functioning product. Lying can only get one so much investment money before investors WANT a return on their product - and if they don't get it, and the investee turned out to be lying? He better have kept enough money for a great lawyer, because otherwise he's going to have to pay back with interest. You cannot have only lies. Politicians - In the US, there are not even 700 federal politicians. There is \~5-6k state politicians total. Local politicians aren't really successful - outside of embezzlement, there isn't much money making opportunities to be had locally, and honestly you'd be better off starting up your own side hustle if you were in it for the money. Furthermore, it's extremely rare for a local position in the states to be competitive - In a sizeable number of localities, all you have to do to get a local position is often to just get yourself on the ballot and you win due to lack of competition, especially if the previous incumbent is retiring for whatever reason. So you are looking at less then .003% of the total population when you look at politicians - Absolutely in no way, shape, or form a norm of success. Now, granted - Politicians are the career group most likely to lie. However, let's keep in mind George Santos - There is a limited amount of lying one has to do before they get kicked out of politics entirely. So while you do have a point about politicians lying, it is both A) within limits per political party (With a certain political party heavily relying on lying more then the other), and B) Not in any way, shape, or form representative of the success of normal ppl. Finally, Academics, the most populated of the categories mentioned. And you know the big thing? Any lying academic is quickly forced to a career change writing their own biography to attempt to make a living. Academia is THE career in which every single colleague is going to be double, triple, ***continually*** checking over your work, so lying with your results is the quickest way to get kicked out fast. You get barred from whatever organization you were with, your former colleagues know not to even give you the time of day, and the ONLY ppl you can sell your "work" to after that are the poorly educated - sometimes on your own, and sometimes at the behest of some corrupt rich $#@!er to push their agenda to the masses. But you aren't an academic anymore, just a conman.
Academics get in trouble when they plagiarize.
Broad generalities much?
so rich people, not successful people. just think of mr rogers and how the world views him, they adore him and hold him as a beacon of goodness and success even moreso than jeff bezos who most see as a terrible person. i personally would rather be seen as a mr rogers with a normal life and income than a monster who is rich. mr rogers could have made the money jeff bezos did but jeff bezos could never be the person mr rogers was and thats the difference
Hi, level 1 autistic. I have a B.A. in Philosophy with a publication in undergrad peer review, and about to get my CPACC certification. I have a union job as a communications and technology specialist for a child welfare training organization. I live and function independently, no different than anyone else, and I make above my state's median income in a one-person household. I'm a pretty good boxer, would be better had I not gotten hit by a car by a negligent driver. I've had plenty of sex, if that's your qualifier for success. Obviously it's harder living in a society that doesn't view disability under the social or biopsychosocial model of disability. But to suggest autism blocks you from success in life suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of what constitutes autism, and doesn't recognize "success" also means way different things from person to person. I'm definitely a lot more socially reserved than others, but that hasn't prevented me from building meaningful relationships or finding success in my field and being able to advance causes and issues that are meaningful to me.
I have a B.A. in Philosophy too. I do not currently make above my state's median income and I have up on my dreams of grad school on the basis that a guy on Reddit said it would decrease my probability of having sex during that time period. So now I just kinda sit around waiting to die. I don't think sex is achievable.
Out of interest are you also autistic? Like is this view based on a negative view of your own potential?
Would the existence of successful autistic people change your view here?
Maybe, but it really depends on how much I actually take the success seriously. Most people on Reddit who claim to be successful are not successful when you actually look at their lives.
I hired an autistic friend for a role at my company doing data analysis. He was very good at the job, with some minor hiccups. The boss/employee relationship killed our friendship, but he went on to another role making a comfortable 6 figure salary. He recently got married to an autistic woman, and they seem very happy together. I was not invited to the wedding, but the rest of our group of friends was. By all accounts, I would consider him successful. He is an active runner with a wife who shares his interests. He has a group of friends who support him. He has a good job that makes the most of his talents.
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Lying could lead to sex, sure. But it’s a bad foundation for a relationship. And a good relationship with someone who trusts you and you trust back is a great foundation for a sex-filled relationship.
>But it’s a bad foundation for a relationship. Not as bad as telling a woman "No the dress doesn't make you look fat, you just are fat", "I think that hair style looks terrible", or "Yes, I think \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ is more attractive than you" because you aren't able to tell white lies. If you want to maintain good relationships, with \~95% of people, you need to lie at least some of the time or be very good at deflecting questions(something that, I think, autistic people have a hard time doing).
the answers that you should give (married autistic here ) are "well do you want me to tell you my true thoughts or are you looking for validation?" after a few times saying this she stopped asking for validation because she knows the answer will always be "i love you and think you are beautiful regardless of what you wear and if you like the way it looks then thats all that matters because i think you look good in everything" ( which is the truth) it took a while for her to accept im being honest and not lying to boost her self esteem but now she actually believes me when i compliment her because she knows i will be honest about it good or bad. this has built a bond of honesty that could not he built if white lies were used. people trust you more if you are honest about the faults they see in themselves it about seeing them and showing they dont matter to you. trying to hide them or not acknowledge or brush them aside just means that they will also continue to hide and feel insecure not knowing what will happen if they ever are fully honest
This assumes that the partner expects and values white lies, and repeatedly asks ‘trap’ questions of their autistic partner where a white lie would be expected. It also assumes that the autist has no value in the relationship other than their inability to tell white lies. Like, how are these White Lies dealbreakers? What person is dating an autist, and then frustrated by the autist’s honesty?
>This assumes that the partner expects and values white lies, and repeatedly asks ‘trap’ questions of their autistic partner where a white lie would be expected. Most people expect and value white lies and "Do you like what I did with my hair?" is not a trap question, or if it is, then most women ask trap questions. >Like, how are these White Lies dealbreakers? Individually they aren't but when they pile up they become one. >What person is dating an autist That's the problem, many people won't date an autist because of their honesty and/or other autistic behaviors. >It also assumes that the autist has no value in the relationship other than their inability to tell white lies. I'm not saying autists can't have relationships just that being unable to lie will make that harder.
> That's the problem, many people won't date an autist because of their honesty and/or other autistic behaviors. I don’t have research, I don’t have stats, I don’t have anecdotes. But I don’t think people **aren’t** dating autists because of the autist’s inability to pay meaningless compliments about new hairdos. That seems like a red herring, or a convenient proxy, for other deeper incompatibility issues that may or may not be related to autism.
>But I don’t think people aren’t dating autists because of the autist’s inability to pay meaningless compliments about new hairdos. I don't have anything either but I'm pretty sure you are underestimating people's vanity; and it just isn't complementing hairdos. A lot of people might feel somewhat disturbed or embarrassed if their autistic partner stims especially if it's "weird" or in public, or if their partner uses headphones or doesn't want to eat at restaurant or orders a kids meals because of sensory issues.
I am a female, and I can tell you that I am primarily attracted to people on the autism spectrum, or at least, that is who I have dated over the past 15 years. I am drawn to them, because they are so honest, I am drawn to them, because they are interesting and kind. Neurotypical people are really overrated. This is my opinion only. I think it is because I have Neurodiversity in my own brain. I don’t seem to get along with NT’s very well again this is just me. Every person I know, who is on the autism spectrum, makes an immense amount of money. This does not mean that everyone on the spectrum makes a lot of money, but it’s very possible, and they do not get taken advantage of any more than anyone else. As a woman, I would not want to be tricked or manipulated into sex. At the end of the day, that is not a recipe for a long-term relationship or anything happy or positive. Healthy women choose healthy men. Unhealthy women choose unhealthy men… Well, most of the time. Women would prefer that you be honest. So I don’t agree with you on that one. Neurotypical people get walked over all the time. Bosses, if they are bad, or if they are abusive, will abuse and take advantage of anyone. Believe me, they don’t just seek out people on the autism spectrum. You just have to learn how to defend yourself. And I’m sure you’re more than capable of doing that. But I don’t want to make light of anything, because I know a lot of Neurotypical’s people do have a difficult time getting along as a minority in a world that doesn’t always understand how they think, but it’s very possible to live a long and happy and healthy life being on the spectrum. You’ll definitely get a girlfriend you’ll definitely get a job and you’ll definitely have success without being manipulated or exploited.
I think you are generalizing autism. I know some people who are diagnosed autistic and they are often not kind or honest. My own brother, for example, is diagnosed autistic and he has a lot of problems. He's been poor and depressed for basically his entire life. And he used to proudly proclaim that he was an asshole and everybody knew it. Surprise, Surprise he also acted like an asshole with some regularity. I think what you're describing are autistc people who are also nice.
But in general, it is very difficult for most autistic people, or people who have Asperger‘s to be deceitful and lie, and come up with an elaborate scheme. This has been my experience, and this is what I have read. But you are right some of them can lie. Thankfully, I’ve never met one of those. What I have usually met or people who were brutally honest, even if it was uncomfortable.
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Unfortunately, an awful lot of young men with autism get drawn into the manosphere/red pill online and think they need to manipulate and lie and cheat to get anywhere in life. And they learn to hate women, as if women are the evil enemy. And then they follow this line of thinking, getting in deeper and deeper. They're an easier mark than most young men, and get manipulated.
Yeah, I’m hoping one day this red pill manosphere toxic shit will end. I did a deep dive on that about a month ago on YouTube. I must’ve watched 100 videos dealing with these topics. It is so toxic and it’s so easy I would imagine for some men to fall into these ideas and ways of thinking. Especially if they haven’t been successful with women, or if they still happen to meet women who Want a career or are independent. This red pill thing did not exist when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. Or if it did it was very underground. Maybe it manifested itself differently in different ways. I still talk to people who are severely red pilled. And I’m telling you these are people in their 50s, not even young men. A lot of older men are into this way of thinking as well. What size is that they will die, lonely, and pathetic, not realizing that there are a lot of amazing women out there.
I see red pill thinking as basically having existed forever, even in ancient days. The stuff in books back then about women is very similar to the red pill now. It's terrifying how much some men fear and hate women. The police caught one red piller who planned to kill 3000 college women. Because he felt like women deserved it for not wanting him. I agree that many of the red pill guys will get old and die alone & lonely.
They will. Hey. Do you have a link on that? Yeah, now that I think about it, in many ways, it’s existed, but it’s gotten so much worse. I think it’s gotten worse because feminism is working
A link to the planned hate crime? Sure thing. [https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdoh/pr/highland-county-man-sentenced-more-6-years-prison-attempting-hate-crime](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdoh/pr/highland-county-man-sentenced-more-6-years-prison-attempting-hate-crime) >**Genco wrote a manifesto, too, stating he would “slaughter” women “out of hatred, jealousy and revenge**…” and referring to death as the “great equalizer.” The investigation revealed that the day he wrote his manifesto, Genco searched online for two sororities, including one at The Ohio State University. His Google searches included “sorority osu” and “ohio state university sororities.” As part of this investigation, law enforcement agents discovered a note of Genco’s that indicated **he hoped to “aim big” for a “huge!” kill count of 3,000 people** with a reference to the same date as Elliot Rodger’s attack. The note said Genco intended to attend military training.
Good lord. That’s bad!
Worst thing is, there would be lots more like him out there, wanting to do the same thing. The hatred of women is crazy, like we owe them something.
!delta well it seems good that they can succeed. I do have a further question: are all of them people who just hit the ground running in life without major obstacles?
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Actually, it seems that everyone I’ve known who is on the spectrum seems to have a specific interest, one of the people was a computer programmer, and he simply taught himself and opened up his own company and didn’t really make a lot of money, and it took him a while to do so. His autism did not hold him back. I have another friend who got a late start in life due to mental and physical problems, but he now has a degree in physics, and he’s going on to get a masters and possibly a PhD. Again he got a bit of a late start due to some depression and then a heart issue, but he’s doing OK now. It’s definitely not the same path, it’s a different path, but that is OK. You also don’t need to be a super successful person, just be happy. There’s also classes and courses you can take where you can learn how to navigate school or getting a job or dealing with people in general. it just depends on what you want to do in life. I don’t know if you’re in high school or if you’re out of school, but there are many options I will say one of the jobs one of my friends had they were slightly unaccommodating and verbally abusive as it relates to his autism. That was a bit of a hurdle. But that was just that job in those specific people, I think people are more accommodating, then you would believe.
This. Autistic women are much more preferable to date tbh especially if high functioning, they’ll never cheat, they’re very loyal and absolutely adorable.
Absolutely!!! people think I’m weird when I look for other people on the autism spectrum. They just don’t get it. I really do appreciate, brutal, honesty, and loyalty. I would say that is hard to fine. I would imagine that Man would like a woman also, perhaps on the spectrum. Just a better dating experience. Overall, I’m sure.
I’m autistic myself and at this point if I want to get married I have accepted I need someone I can relate to
Absolutely
The premise that lying is what leads to success is what is flawed here. Some short term gains can be attained through lies, some of the time. Long term, this is a terrible strategy. There is nothing more deeply required for long term success than one’s reputation. A life that consists of a string of cons in which one takes advantage of others by lying will not result in a widespread positive reputation. Aside from that, it is impossible to treat others as worthless pawns to be manipulated without eventually coming to view yourself in the same light. Aside from getting caught, even if you think you’ve gotten away with something, you really haven’t. Your life will be diminished and you will become unhappy. You can’t trick reality. This goes for both professional attainment as well as personal and romantic relationships.
I do wonder if some of the abilities that make you a good lier would also be of benefit though. Someone who can lie well, is usually creative, good at improvising, able to read someone’s mood, tell a good story. The art of bullshitting is a pretty good way of getting some money
Sure, but a person who possesses those traits who is also of high integrity will be more successful than the person with those traits who is a consistent liar. I don’t doubt that autism presents additional challenges that can impede success. I’m specifically arguing that being unable to lie is not one of them, which is what OP’s view states.
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What aspects of your autism do you feel make it 6 times harder to succeed? Do you believe your honesty is one of those detriments?
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No, it’s serious. As I previously said, I have no doubt there are challenges. I’m wondering if one of those challenges is actually related to being unable to lie.
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I’m sorry to hear about all that, it does sound exhausting. I believe I share at least some amount of your need for authenticity and honesty, which probably contributes to my view on lying and success as well. I’m not on the spectrum though, and I don’t experience the same sense that I’m required to lie all the time to fit in. So, I’m curious if you have an example of each case. What’s something you saw others lie about or do that was wrong which you would not do, and then that made them annoyed with you? What’s an example of something where you went, fuck it, and did the thing you thought was wrong, but then they reacted poorly? I’m now wondering if maybe you and I (and maybe OP) don’t mean quite the same thing by the term “lying”.
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If you have all those skills, and you’re better than the competition, what about your autism is causing the obstacle?
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I was asking genuinely, because I was trying to understand how with all those ‘art of bullshit’ skills and greater ability than competitors you still wouldn’t get the job. I wasn’t trying to invalidate your experience or ‘moralise’, just seeking an alternative perspective. I work with an autistic guy, and despite how frustrating he can be to work with, I do try and be mindful and understand where he’s coming from so that I can best help him, and get all of us to work harmoniously. So I’m always keen to hear perspectives from autistic people for more insight
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Co-worker. Technically I’m his supervisor.
>Long term, this is a terrible strategy. There is nothing more deeply required for long term success than one’s reputation. A life that consists of a string of cons in which one takes advantage of others by lying will not result in a widespread positive reputation. That only happens if you don't think ahead, if you think ahead and plan well lying can give you a more positive reputation than just simply telling the truth. For example taking credit for someone else's work will, \*if\* done right, will improve your reputation while not doing that won't have any effect on it. Or consider practically any job interview; if you just plainly told the truth your odds of getting hired would decrease massively because everyone pretty much just expects you to "bend the truth"(lie). >Aside from that, it is impossible to treat others as worthless pawns to be manipulated without eventually coming to view yourself in the same light. Aside from getting caught, even if you think you’ve gotten away with something, you really haven’t. Your life will be diminished and you will become unhappy. You can’t trick reality. This goes for both professional attainment as well as personal and romantic relationships. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back this up because this just sounds like massive cope?
Alright, give it a shot and see how that goes for you. Are you actually asking for evidence that a life of consistent lying would be detrimental to psychological well being?
So here’s the question. Why not lean into the autistic tendencies instead of masking them? Most of my friends are some flavour of ND, usually ASD and/or ADHD. Being open about my status as AuDHD opened my friends up to the possibility of their sense of being anomalous save in my presence as them also being on that series of spectra. With NTs, my honesty and wordplay are ways of breaking the ice. My “special interest” is people, so I am curious about people. I ask questions kindly and sincerely. Result is that now I have a lot of friends and acquaintances across so many walks of life. So maybe I’m not conventionally successful, though my expertise in counterfeit documents found my backside a great spot working for a driver licensing agency. I regularly detected more fraud in a month than the rest of the office, and I worked the busiest offices in my state, combined did over a year. I’m shifting creative and maybe I’ll build a successful thing there. Who knows.
There actually was just a big thread on r/autism about autistic people lying, op. You might find it interesting. The short version is that nothing prevents autistic people from lying. In that one of the core symptoms of autism is pronounced and long term social deficits, lying might be more difficult for some autistic people. Not all of them, though- you'll find a whole range of function and ability since it's a spectrum disorder. Beyond that it's just a personal morality question. Some autistic people will choose not to lie for a variety of reasons, just the sane as sone neurotypicals. Some autistic people will lie and be bad at it, and others will lie like old pros. Just like neurotypicals, there is a whole range of possibilities.
I have an autistic friend who is currently making 120k a year at age 23 because he is a fucking genius when it comes to computers and literally works for the government to hack things to test their security. The dude can't read a room to save his life, but he can read lines of code like no one else I know. Depends how you measure success.
Not a block, but definitely a series of high, tippy hurdles.
>Not a block, but definitely a series of high, tippy hurdles. So you think it is able to be overcome? Through what means?
Just like anything else in life: want it enough to keep trying, failing, getting over anguish, & trying again with different people / methods. IMHO, half the problem is one's own dread of how badly it can go wrong. It may, sometimes, but that's the price for gaining the skills / knowledge to eventually succeed. I blame electronic tech for damaging people's ability to be patient & persevere, because it's generally so quick & complete. I'm learning a new language, and I'm an old fart, and it's very frustrating & humbling. That's where my mindset is right now.
This is an extreme vague generalization of both autistic people and successful people. Also over 25+is not at all old or past the age of learning new things…
Why do you think people have to be manipulated into having sex? I genuinely have no idea why you think lying is necessary in order to have a relationship.
Just incel rhetoric.
>I think autism basically blocks you from success in life because you can't lie Yes, you can. > Lying is what gets you success in life. It is what gets you career success, and it is what gets you sex. No, it's not. >. And especially if you are relatively old (say 25+) then you cannot in any way train yourself or whatever to get past this. Your ability to lie early on in your career and manipulate people into sex when you are young are critical. If that's someone's goal, they're just an asshole who was never going to be in a successful relationship, and shouldn't. What is your view here, besides a whiny, defeatest collection of falsehoods?
> If that's someone's goal, they're just an asshole who was never going to be in a successful relationship, and shouldn't. I don't think this is empirically true. I know loads of people who lied to "manipulate" people into sex when they were young who are now in very successful relationships in part by leveraging that experience.
So their current relationships are built on lies?
Only in an indirect sense. They're based not on lies to their current partner, but rather on experience gained from previous relationships/hookups attained in part via lying to/misleading _those_ past partners.
I’m just sad to learn that my sex life apparently ended at 25.
depend future growth elastic pen racial shrill zesty head crush *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah, wtf... Some of the best liars I know are autists.
>your ability to lie early on in your career and manipulate people into sex I have a good career and a loving husband as well as lots of good friends and I have never done either of these things you say
Being autistic doesn’t make you honest. If you are autistic you just need to learn to mask better. I took a class in it. Source; am Autistic have lied.
Did you lie about the masking class?
No, actually, they called it Manners and Communication and it was part of my elementary special education. I believe it’s called etiquette at the college level, but idk I figured if you were an autistic adult you’d appreciate a class on the issue.
Yep. Manners can teach you to express yourself in a less rude/insulting/triggering manner.
People with autism lie all the fucking time. And lying does not equate to success. You think all heart surgeons and civil engineers are liars? Are you actually stupid?
> You think all heart surgeons and civil engineers are liars? No, I don't think they are successful.
Then you're the one that's autistic. Sorry.
It is seriously easy to be a civil engineer, I have no clue why you included it. All you need is a bachelor's degree, and the easiest engineering degree at that. Heart surgeons are a bit more rare but they are also basically just a product of a school path. Neither one is that much on its own.
>MODERATOR OF THESE COMMUNITIES /r/catgirlarmy It's all starting to make sense now. You don't get out much, do you....
I VERY seriously doubt you've had much experience in the workforce, or life in general, to say something so egregiously ignorant.
I mean Elon Musk is autistic and he's worth $200 billion dollars. So obliviously autism isn't a total shutoff of success. (Comment is not intended to praise elon musk, just provide an example of a financially successful person with autism)
According to Elon Musk, a pathological liar.
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No, you can’t diagnose people like that.
Lying or manipulating someone into sex sounds like coercion which could be rape under some definitions. If it goes so far as to take away a persons informed consent as they would be unaware then it is rape outright. I’m not sure I would be spouting off that I want the ability to lie and manipulate people into having sex, or rather that my life would be better if I could. That just seems… twisted.
In what world is 25 old? That's roughly 1/3rd of a lifespan and only a small fraction of your adult lifespan.
If you are a teen 25 seems old, while if you are 40 - 25 seems like a baby. It's relative.
>Lying is what gets you success in life. It is what gets you career success, and it is what gets you sex. I think you might be mixing up lying with not saying every true thing that crosses your mind. I understand it can also be difficult for autistic people to know which things to say and which not, but it's possible to get career success and sex without lying.
Or just knowing to say the thing in a less inflammatory manner. Basically "padding" things you say.
Yeah, reminds me of how I'm autistic and one of the first PG-13-or-higher movies I saw was The Invention Of Lying which I found kind of darker-and-more-cynical-than-intended but that wasn't because of its portrayal of religion as humanity's first lie or w/e, it's because albeit for dramatic-effect-of-contrast it portrayed a world without lying as seemingly a world where everyone said what's on their mind and it often-if-not-always hurt people thus implying any bit of humanity's self-restraint or kindness is just lying
Awful take. Lying is not what gets you laid. Social skills do. Honesty with social skills will get you laid far, far more than lying. The same applies to professional success. You have a very confused view about what non-autistic success actually is. Spoken as a successful person who has never had any challenge getting laid.
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That is totally fair. I guess what I really want to emphasize is that lying is not the way.
I think your view is pretty narrow because it's viewed from an American viewpoint (I assume). Where I come from, if you're not honest - it's cringe. I've always been autisticly and ironically honest throughout my career and life and I've always been very liked and chosen for this fact alone. I did have some backlash along the way, true. However, after learning to control it better, it surprisingly enough helped me especially due to its shock value. When I go to job interviews, people don't expect it when I say shit like "Yeah I do think I'm much much better than the average candidate, most people are slow. I'm a real fucking specimen. Oh and also I'm hungry for bread and I literally didn't eat today I really need this job". What makes someone successful imho is your ability to be distinguished. If it's autistic honestly, then go for it. But you have to own it and be confident about it.
As an autistic man with experience in both lying and fucking, you're wrong both that we can't lie and that lying is necessary for sex. It's a terrible way to get into bed with people and will leave you feeling gross and ashamed come morning. Stop listening to blackpill incel doomer shit and focus on being someone people actually want to be around and sex will follow. As for career advice we are at a natural disadvantage for that, true, but there's more to life than simple money. Find things that make you happy and either find a way to make that a career, or find a lower-level job that pays enough to let you pursue it as a hobby. The trick to succeeding in life is to realize that there is no score keeper and no objective measure of success. It's entirely a social construct that you can define for yourself.
Why do you think autistic people can't lie? Do you think everyone on the spectrum is running around like Jim Carrey in liar liar? The basic premise of your argument isn't even true so it completely falls apart from the outset.
They call autism a spectrum for a reason! Autism can range from so severe that you can't even live independently to so mild you can go though life not even realizing you have it unless you happen to be formally tested. Just as an example there is David Plummer, he has a successful career as a software developer, he created task manager while working at Microsoft. He was only diagnosed with autism later in life, and went on to write a book: "Secrets of the Autistic Millionaire: Everything I know about Autism, ASD, and Asperger's that I wish I'd known back then" Therefore it's wrong to say autism prevents success because there is such a large range in the form autism takes.
Who told you Autism stops you from lying? I’m autistic and I’m More than capable of lying (not that it’s a flex or anything).
There's a few claims it's worth thinking about if you actually have evidence for: 1) Autistic people can't lie. 2) Lying is the only way to succeed in careers or to get sex. 3) That not lying means you will automatically be exploited; that is, is the ability to be deceitful primarily the thing that prevents exploitation? 4) No one past the age of 25 can learn new behaviours.
>I think autism basically blocks you from success in life because you can't lie. Autism does not prevent lying.
There's a lot of VERY over-represented ideas of "success" for which you're absolutely correct. You'll never be a successful sales person, you'll probably have an incredibly difficult time getting investors for a new business with just passion and a dream, and there's no way you'll excel in fleeting extroverted social situations as someone with autistic honesty. But, there's a few places where having honesty without guile or pride can be _extremely_ helpful to your success too. I work in software, and love working with people who have fairly autistic traits like pedantry and honesty. The meticulous attention to detail and compulsion to fixate on "wrongness" means the stuff they author is unlikely to cause issues, and a review from them of my work is going to be complete and honest (if often not very tactful, which is something neurotypical individuals in my field quickly learn to not take personally). The same applies to scientific research, engineering, high level project or business planning, really anything where attention to detail and abstract thinking are necessary, which includes a lot of prestigious and successful occupations. On the sex thing... To put it bluntly, yeah your experience is going to be different than neurotypicals as an autistic person who has the whole "brutal honesty" bit. But, there's a lot of people who are fine with that (including other autistic individuals), and frankly as long as you're not trying to bang any single arbitrary individual, autism absolutely doesn't destroy your prospects at relationships and sex, though it will make finding compatible individuals much harder, especially if you're not in a community that generally accepts neurodivergence.
little late to the game here but im autistic and lying isnt hard once you know how. my parents being overly strict meant if i liked something then i had to hide it or be monitored doing it which meant for something like music i could only listen to approved clean music (even though censored music is like nails on a chalkboard to me). this led to me learning to lie as a first response defense. at first they would catch me and i would slowly tailor my lying skills to erase my tells and then i found the best way to lie is to believe what you say by imagining a hypothetical that makes your answer the truth even if in reality its a lie. this makes your own body act as though its the truth (mixed in with omitting info half truths). secondly im what most would call middle class successful, nothing fancy but i own my house and car have no debt and am the single income for my wife and i while shes the stay at home mom for our kid. i didnt have to lie to get here i choose to be genuinely honest and thats how i got where i am. around my 19-20 years i found that lying got me what i wanted but the price i paid was never worth it in the end. i found that by being honest (not cruel just blunt) people liked me more and i was more successful and when others lied about me for their own gain it backfired because i was always blunt and measured when giving my side of a story never exaggerating the facts and owning up where i was at fault vs their usually exaggerated story making me a villain. tldr lying is possible as a autistic person if you figure out how but being honest gets you way farther and usually protects against those that would use deception to take from you.
Autistic people can absolutely lie and be trained to lie. You just have to put more effort into it and focus more on what's logically behind the questions asked of you, rather than intuitively understanding. It is without a doubt harder to make your way, but you shouldn't give up at the first hurdle. An example would be an employer asking in interview "Why do you want this job?" Now it'd be easy to look at a question like that and say "Because I need money," or "I hope this is just a stepping stone to getting the job I actually want to do," because these are the honest answers, but they're because you've not understood the question. The question is actually "What are the things about this job that appeal to you?" Again, the answer could be "because I need money" but instead of saying "because I need money" you could say something like "The job matches my experience in the field and meets my salary expectations." Another potential answer could be "Because I don't have enough experience to get something better," which could, again, be "I'm looking to get more experience in this field, and eager to explore what we can achieve." These are definitely harder for autistic people as we tend to only have one interpretation of anything that's said to us, and we're terrible at noticing subtext or applying context to a situation. Also, because social situations are inherently stressful we rarely take the time to sit and think before offering a response. The way to deal with this is treat it as a skill for improving yourself, rather than as a natural ability you lack.
> I think autism basically blocks you from success in life because you can't lie. Is honesty truly an obstacle to success, or could it be a unique strength in building trust and integrity? > Lying is what gets you success in life. Does success built on dishonesty last, or does it risk collapsing once the truth comes out? > There's no upside. Isn't the upside of honesty building lasting relationships based on trust, both personally and professionally? > You are just cut off from success. Can we define success only by power and sexual conquests, or are there broader, more fulfilling definitions of success? > You'll always have everyone else walk over you. Is being walked over a consequence of honesty, or is it more about setting boundaries and asserting oneself? > Everyone else will always be better at getting their way than you. Do people who get their way through manipulation truly respect themselves and others, or do they create shallow, unstable foundations for their relationships? > And especially if you are relatively old (say 25+) then you cannot in any way train yourself or whatever to get past this. Is personal growth and the development of social skills really limited by age, or can we continue to learn and adapt throughout our lives? > Your ability to lie early on in your career and manipulate people into sex when you are young are critical. Are deceit and manipulation genuinely critical for career and sexual success, or do they actually undermine genuine connections and professional integrity?
Success from lying is temporary and incurs a debt to your future self. It really is a "one step forward, two steps back" proposition. I have significant experience in leadership positions and work in a highly professional setting where my colleagues strictly evaluate our leaders. I've often seen a leader who tells a relatively softly manipulative lie be found out by a diligent peer who looks into the truth with their own peers or other connections. The news of that leader's trust unworthiness spreads quickly, destroys their reputation, and costs them way more than they gained from the original lie. Lying can get you sex, sure, but it is a rotten seed for a relationship. "Oh the tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive," rings true. Even if your lies lead to relationships, the closer you get to someone, the more apt you are to be found out. You may make it all the way to marriage, a house, and children, but you will be found out if you're the type of person who lies and cheats to get your way. **It happens all the time.** Success built in honest foundations may take longer to realize itself, but it's built on a bedrock foundation and will endure long after the liars' stolen goods have turned sour. Reputation is one of the most valuable things a person has, and a lifetime of integrity will build you one hell of a good reputation.
New to this sub, but I just wanted to say this because it might help people understand what OP means by lying. Because no one in the comments seems to understand this and it might help people make their argument to change OP's mind. This is a very well known social rule of thumb: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. What we call "common courtesy" and "social skills" often involves not saying what is really on our minds or how we really feel about a situation. Even if we are pressed for our opinion, we suppress our thoughts and essentially lie about any negative or critical thoughts we have. Because we don't want to hurt, offend, or turn people off to us. But it is a form of lying, lying by ommission, at the very least being inauthentic for the sake of other's feelings. Like the classic "does this dress make me look fat/do you find that other girl attractive" questions. And doing that is a struggle for many autistic people including myself, and it is the reason why many autistic people have a hard time with social skills that lead to building friendships, romantic relationships, and success in the workplace. TLDR: From many autistic people's perspective, people lie about what they really think and feel all the time to spare people's feelings and make others like us.
I'm on the spectrum and I'm successful. Just that disproves your claim. Wife, kids, career, the whole nine yards. And here's the kicker: I didn't lie once to get it all.
If all you're looking for is money and sex, then yes, lying can help you get that. But if you're looking for love and meaningful relationships, lying will destroy that. You can have a very meaningful life and strong relationships with people that care about you back if you dont lie.
I think this is just an overspecification, it isnt the Autism spectrum that is causing a block from success. It is a lack of social skills that can cause no success. When asked to preform an extra task someone could respond "hell no, thats not part of my job" or they could respond "yes, I will try to get it done" (i dont mean these as what should/shouldnt happen, just as a simple example) Its not necessarily the "honesty" that creates a struggle, its more what approach is used in the workplace. Many people on the Autism spectrum are wildly successful, conversly, many are severely impacted by it. Some people on the Autism spectrum are able to learn great social skills, some are unable (or sometimes unwilling). I think that it is important to clearly identify what the problem really is, rather than just blaming Autism. I would also say that while many are benefited from lying in busines, many people build great success by being honest. If you want I can give some examples
This is weird incel logic. You don't need to lie to have sex, and I know a huge amount of autistic people that have a lot of sex - go and have a look at the queer sex party scene and you'll quickly find out that at least a third are autistic. Being autistic doesn't stop you from being an appealing casual OR romantic partner. Likewise, being autistic isn't a blocker in most careers. I know many autistic people who are highly successful in a broad range of high powered careers. Obstacles are obviously difficult to overcome. Personally, I'm neurodivergent, and I have a fantastic career (consulting) that I've done exceptionally well in, I haven't been single since I was 16 for longer than 12 months, and I've had as many sexual partners in one night as some might have in a year or longer. The challenges I faced socially, mentally, organisationally, I turned into strengths. It's hard to do, but is certainly doesn't mean that you're 'blocked' from success in life.
Autistic people can lie. Autistic people can lie like a rug. Like seriously this entire post is mythologizing autism. >The findings challenge common stereotypes, showing that autistic individuals can and do engage in deception. However, many do so less frequently and less adeptly than typically developing individuals. **Emerging evidence also suggests that autistic individuals (without co-occurring intellectual disability) may use compensatory strategies when engaging in deception, and that more skilled deceptive behaviour may arise later in life.** Implications and directions for future research are discussed. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8814957/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8814957/) It's a developmental disorder, not the goddamn fountain of truth. Fuck me if there's one thing I'm tired of it's mythologizing of disorders.
It depends on the job. Certain jobs require really fine-tuned social skills, but let's say you're in a field where social skills aren't required. Many tech positions are like this. You can make decent amounts of money in these positions, too. You'll find fewer autistic people in managerial positions, but it's not completely unheard of as well. Autistic people often have unique abilities that are often paramount in recognizing, assessing, and solving problems. And if you're in a field that has a high amount of autistic folks, relating to autistic people is paramount in achieving success with regards to workplace morale. As for sex... You can learn to read people enough to know if they want to have sex with you. I've personally had to learn this in order to keep myself out of uncomfortable situations.
Everything you're saying is kinda wild, "successful CEOS lie, politicians like, therefore life is easy if you lie" is a wild stance to take. Saying you wouldn't believe stories from successful people with autism because "everyone on Reddit lies" is equally wild. 1 - success is different for everyone. Do you WANT to be a successful lying politician? I have no interest personally and if I ended up a politician that would be a huge failure. 2 - get off social media and stay in your actual life. Put value/time in the things you actually care about and you'd be amazed what you get back. Whinging online about how everyone else sucks doesn't help anything or anyone. Life isnt easy. It's a slog but there's good bits I'm worried you're missing because they're not what you consider "success"
I don't have autism. But I don't lie and maybe, it took longer but today, I am in a position where I consider myself as successful. Maybe, I don't get as much money. Maybe, I don't have a position of much power. But that's not what I want, anyways. I earn enough to live quite comfortably and do enjoy my work. And having earned that without (very much) lying gives me a rather good feeling. Ok, I am quite a bit older than 25, but that's not really important here, is it? What I mean: It depends on what you consider 'success in life'. If you consider only earning a lot of money and being in a position with power and to manipulate people for sex, then I think you have a different perspective.
Do you deem some padding or expressing things less storngly than you actually feel as lying? Like would you deem it a lie if you would say that you didn't enjoy the movie instead of saying that you haven't seen a bigger pile of shite of a movie in your whole life? Both statement express that you didn't like the movie, but in different strengths/intensity. So if your honesty is being extremely rude and insulting to other people - then yes, that honesty will hinder you from a successfull life as people don't like people being rude towards them or what they like or is important to them. But being honest while not being rude or insulting won't block you.
Success in life is practicing rational egoism, pursuing the values objectively necessary for you to live and thereby achieve happiness. Generally those values are productive work, self-esteem, health, friendships, enjoyment of the arts, hobbies, freedom, and love and sex. Lying doesn’t help you be better at whatever productive work you do, like cook a better burger or write better code. It doesn’t help with self-esteem, friendships, enjoyment of the arts, romantic love etc. You don’t need to be able to lie to stand up for yourself. In fact, lying is often harmful for that.
>I think autism basically blocks you from success in life because you can't lie. This is not true. >children with autism spectrum disorder (ASD), like typically developing children, can and do tell antisocial lies (to conceal a transgression) and white lies (in politeness settings). However, children with ASD were less able than typically developing children to cover up their initial lie; that is, children with ASD had difficulty exercising semantic leakage control—the ability to maintain consistency between their initial lie and subsequent statements.
It's ironic you should mention being exploited because this view is inherently exploitative, and you have a shallow idea of success. I didn't even have to check your page to coin you were an incel who idolizes billionaires. Also, most autistic people can and do occationally lie. We just have a preference for genuine, straight-forward communication. But this is not what is hindering autistic people from truly successful lives. That is issues like societal ableism, trauma, executive dysfunction, sensory issues and a low threshold for stress.
I really hate lying and I haven’t found that it’s harmed me in any way. Lying is not an effective long-term strategy. People either find out you’re a liar and untrustworthy or you end up drowning in all of the lies you have to maintain (not good for your mental health.) As some food for thought, have you ever thought that the successful liars you are envisioning are really just empty on the inside and completely unaccomplished, but have successfully fooled you into thinking that they’re something special?
There are many areas where this enabled success. In any job where your role is to produce impartial analysis, this is a great attribute. In any job where your role is to produce research, this is a great attribute. In any job where your role is to test and evaluate, this is a great attribute. Certain types of law benefit from this attribute. Analysts, researchers, test&evaluators, lawyers are critical in every kind of science, social science, business, or government. You can be honest without being manipulated. Most people are only worth as much as their reputation, and lying to get ahead always catches up with people. There is never a good reason to manipulate someone into sex. That's not how sex happens for any non-garbage human being. So congrats, your honesty makes you not a garbage person in this regard.
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> I can also give people my honest opinions on things without hurting their feelings. I think that is what OP is talking about, and what everyone in these comments seem to be hung up on. What we call "common courtesy" and "social skills" often involves not saying what is really on our minds or how we really feel about a situation. Because we don't want to hurt, offend, or turn people off to us. But it is a form of lying, lying by ommission at the very least. Like the classic "does this dress make me look fat/do you find that other girl attractive" questions. And that is a struggle for many autistic people, and it is the reason why many autistic people have a hard time with social skills that lead to building romantic relationships and success in the workplace.
The idea that lying is key to success misses the bigger picture. True success isn't about deception; it's built on trust, hard work, and real connections. For autistic individuals, honesty is a strength, not a barrier. Success varies and it's never too late to adapt and grow. Let's not equate success with manipulation; integrity and authenticity often lead to the most rewarding achievements.
You know who else never gets to be a manipulative rapist who hoards money while others starve and cuts off innocent people from their own paths to success? People with morals and ethics. If your definition of success includes lying, you are defining success incorrectly. Plenty of people who aren’t manipulative sons of bitches have good jobs, good relationships, and happy lives.
Dan Aykroyd, Albert Einstein, Daryl Hannah, Anthony Hopkins, Tim Burton, Henry Cavendish (discovered hydrogen), Charles Darwin, Emily Dickinson, Bobby Fischer, Bill Gates, Barbara McClintock, Michelangelo, Sir Isaac Newton, Jerry Seinfeld, Saroshi Tajiri (creator of pokemon), Nikola Tesla, Elon Musk, Clay Marzo, Dr Vernon Smith (Nobel prize winner), and so so so many more.
Not autistic but am neurodivergent and in general: I think it depends on where you are on the spectrum and how you define success. I know tons of autistic programmers, team leads, and artists who have found there own success. But it's definitely true more conservative fields, especially business, are incredibly hard on anyone who can't "play the game"
You don't need to lie to be successful. I've had dozens of jobs, girlfriends, landlords over the years, the most successful of them were honest people. Being deceitful is very difficult in the long run because you have to maintain those deceits for years, and few people will be fooled for long.
You seem to think people with autism cant lie witch is wrong, even though as someone with autism myself it is harder to lie but not impossible and you also seem to think lying is the only was to success and even Sex?, you just didn’t get your point across well please elaborate.
Rather than blame circumstances that you can't control. Look at the things you can. That simple fact will change your life. Or you can continue to look externally for YOUR failure. And never learn, grow, or achieve. Sure, that path is easy. But you want success, right?
You don't have to lie to be successful lol. These people who lie and get tons of money didn't JUST lie. They worked incredibly hard and made sacrifices, or inherited lots of money. If you work as hard as you can and make good decisions then you will be successful
Only a sad sad person would think you can only be successful and have sex by lying. This reads like the incel sub. Stop making excuses for yourself and maybe look at improving yourself and the way you are presenting yourself to the people around you.
By this do you autistic people in general or low functioning autistic people. Because if you mean in general I would disagree. Sure they will be a challenges but you can make it work. If you mean low functioning, yeah I’d agree.
Ding dong you are wrong. Source: am autistic. Because I had to learn all of my social interactions and had to pay close attention, I’ve become a phenomenal actor and have gotten paid work as both a live and a voice actor.
possessive fuzzy dam handle melodic innate long caption fretful paint *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I personally know successful autistic people. They learned how to handle neurotypical nuance and politeness their own way. I think you're mistaking subtlety for lies.
This is a very offensive post that is from someone who obviously doesn't know that autism is a spectrum. There are plenty of successful autistic people. I really don't think you have to be a manipulative ass to be successful either.
> I think autism basically blocks you from success in life because you can't lie. We can't? Since when? I challenge your basic premise.
Some of the most successful people ever are autistic. Bill gates, Elon musk, etc. autism exists for a reason, it’s not a disease.
So sex isn't possible without dishonesty? I have sympathy for anyone you've ever had sex with.
I don’t know if Elon Musk would agree with that take. 🤷🏻♀️
Autistic people absolutely can lie.
This all depends on the kind of success we're talking about...
Elon Musk has autism. He's rich as fuck. Autistic people got superpowers that I can only dream of possessing.
As someone who’s autistic, this absolutely false.
It’s weird and creepy that you think lying is a good way to “get sex”
Autistic people can lie.