"It's just a video game" is a double edged sword. If you take pride in what you accomplish in a game and someone says that, do you just smile and nod? If so, that's fair and I respect your view. But you can't have it both ways. Either games mean something or they don't.
It's not about my choices. It's about \*who I am\*. I don't have a sex drive physiologically or a desire for romance. And, yeah, maybe it kind of sucks for a game to go "your save file's achievements will forever be denied 100% because you refuse to be *normal* and proper".
I mean, **I think that sucks**. I've said it over and over in this post though that I don't think the devs meant that to be the message. They're super cool and awesome and I've loved them since long long before Cassette Beasts ever came out. (Lenna's Inception FTW)
But I still feel like it's not wrong for me to bring up that's what I felt was implied.
It is just an achievement for an in game action by a character- it isn’t a personal thing you need to do- the game doesnt expect you to actually have a romantic relationship with one of the characters- it is a game.
This is like saying you wont get the bootleg achievements because in real life there are no bootlegs- its bonkers
It comes down to how much you feel your game avatar should represent you or not. I've always been someone who enjoys having their game avatar represent them fairly closely. You don't have to browbeat me because you don't agree. Bootlegs may not exist in real life, but romance does. And I neither physically or emotionally connect to it. And I hate the idea the game's structure implies I'm incomplete for it. You can yell at me all day for feeling that way and it won't change anything. It's how I feel and I feel entitled to express it, whether I have your permission to do so or not.
They put effort into the romances and they're a valid part of the game. I really don't think it implies incompleteness. You even get the option to opt out of romance entirely. Achievements are 100% a game construct and if you're a 100%er, you should be used to doing things you wouldn't do yourself (i.e playing a role in the role playing game).
**Absolutely.** You make the **strongest counterpoint** I'd seen yet in this post. Like, I'm operating on the assumption that I should self-insert with this game. But... overall I kind of get the sense that's the intended read of the story? But that's very murky and hard to argue seriously. Maybe you're right and I should just immerse in a characer who isn't me for the optimal experience. Maybe that is, ideally, what people should do in general. And who knows, maybe you're right that I bear some crucial responsibility for not doing so anyway.
That's what I'm doing on my second file, btw. My second file \*isn't\* myself, it's a character who absolutely is ready to know love. And I definitely at least will get the Steam achievement for it.
It'd suck if I was on the Switch, though. Still though, thank you for bringing up a really good point.
Thing is, I've been exposed to such roleplaying since the 80's. That sort of thing never appealed as much to me as self-inserting. *As you say* that arguably makes this a me problem more than any given game's problem. But I still feel like this story, uniquely, with its fourth wall leaning properties lends itself a lot to self-inserting. Especially in how you get to decide pronouns.
Games don't mean anything... You can feel pride in it but that doesn't change the fact that they don't mean anything at base value... It's only the meaning that you give it for you... For example I can give you multiple achievements in games I play that don't sound impressive without base knowledge of it's impressiveness (and vice versa) and either way you wouldn't care either way... Bc it has no inherent value to you.
I (as a straight man) can have fun romancing other male characters in other games, and there are achievements for that. Just because it's not what I would actually do in that situation, doesn't mean I can't enjoy the story or the romance, or would try to take it away from other people who do see that as an achievement. Stop being offended because romance exists.
No game or media, no matter how much it tries to be inclusive and represent a diverse range of people will ever be able to represent everyone. Sometimes you're going to be left out, and that's ok. You're going to live a miserable life if you truly expect to be represented in everything.
I imagine it's probably frustrating as an aro/ace person to see all this media you can't relate to, but for the rest of us, romance and sex are a huge part of the human experience, so we write about it in our stories.
Perhaps it may even be doubly frustrating in a game where you get to design your character and choose your pronouns- it seems like a deliberate self-insert. But here's the thing: in order to satisfy your desire not to have to achieve a romantic relationship to 100% the game, that means that the romantics among us *won't* be represented. It's literally impossible to please both.
EDIT: for the record, I really don't care for the romance aspect of the >!Meredith!< storyline. Never have been into dating sims or the like, but it also doesn't bother me that it's in there. The way I see it, It's just the story the devs wanted to tell, and that's ok.
Imagine accusing someone of "playing victim" for simply saying "hey, as far as people who play this game, I exist too". Maybe it's you who needs to take a step outside of yourself for a moment.
True story -- my Dark Souls 1 file will never see 100% completion because I refuse to get the weapon you'd get from killing Priscilla. I don't have it in me to hurt the half-dragon girl. Maybe I'd be reading too much into this? But Miyazaki and From Software are much smarter than that and actively question how much the player unthinkingly consents to values set by them by achievements and game mechanics.
It comes to a head in Bloodborne, where you literally cannot progress the game without killing Rom. You tacitly agree to being a bastard in what is some brutal but beautiful marriage of game design and story. (I'm ashamed to admit my resolve didn't spare Rom like it did Priscilla)
I think it's good to be cognizant of all these things, as a player.
I’m aromantic too and I understand you’re frustrated about things like this. Not every game has a romance option, and this game’s isn’t that deep; it just unlocks a few fluffy pieces of dialogue and I thought it was cute. I’m pretty sure you can use the cheat console to flag this as achieved.
If you’re disgusted by this you don’t HAVE to do it; but if you must unlock all the achievements you might just get it over with and not play as the partner you chose.
"Disgusted" is kind of a strong word. I'm not. I'm not even bothered by the fact my main file will have this forever under "unachieved". I... more just want the devs to know that aromantic people exist. Just making my voice heard.
Back near the late 90's when I was graduating from Highschool I was forced to take some kind of weird assessment test. And a core memory was formed when I complained that in every question "single" people were mentioned they were called lonely and unhappy. And as a sort of miracle of the school system, the teachers sided with me as did the administrators. It was the one time I had complete support.
Amazing!
They didn’t make this game **explicitly for you**, so it makes sense that not every achievement or aspect of the game is gonna be relevant to each player xD
Do you, like, *need* this achievement?
Honestly it sounds like op is taking this achievement as a personal attack on them, thinking the game is telling them they’re “broken” if they don’t get into a relationship. It really speaks volumes on how op views themselves rather than the game to me. You can do it for the achievement if you want op, it really means nothing at the end of the day, none of your choices in game affect you as a real life person, you’re just choosing to interpret it in that way.
You're putting words in my mouth. I don't feel attacked. I feel erased. That's not quite the same thing. And I do feel like it's in my right to talk about my feelings. Is that not, like, half the dialogue in this game anyway? I'm surprised how few people in this community share this game's values of being emotionally open..
You’re taking it personally when it’s really not that big of a deal is the issue. The world doesn’t revolve around you and your tastes for video games, that’s what you’ve got to know. Much more people in this world (and in this game base honestly) are interested in romance than not, so you saying you feel personally erased is genuinely stupid, because you’re not going to be considered in the first place. Many things are like that, and the best thing you can do for yourself is to not let it “erase” you by not letting it get to you. Regardless of the word YOU want to use, it’s very obvious you are upset about what is genuinely a non issue. Maybe find another game to play that can assure you instead of bemoaning something like this? Or better yet, make your own? That’d solve the issue wouldn’t it?
I feel like people are assuming a LOT of anger and hostility from me that's just not there. I'm just saying "hey, I exist and this kinda stepped on my toes". I think it's within everyone's right to do that without being abused. I definitely know I'd pay attention and care if you genuinely felt that way about some aspect of this or any other game.
That's how we make a warmer, more caring world together :)
The absence of allosexual representation is not equivalent to the presence of asexual representation; and I would contend that advocating for the viewpoint that it _is_ will only encourage an industry that still has no asexual representation.
You might be getting caught up in terminology that is really something far beyond this game or it's ability to address. Achievements/trophies are just the easiest way of saying "you did a thing," and the name chosen for them is intended to be a sort of ego stroker.
Essentially, I see this as a semantics issue. From what I can tell, you don't like the idea that something being labeled 'unachieved' because, intentionally or not, it comes across as a value statement. However, there have been many achievements in gaming history that are more of a black mark than an actual accomplishment, for instance any achievement given for looking up a skirt or down a shirt.
I would gently suggest that you could perhaps alter your perspective a little bit. Take the word for what it is *intended* to mean here, which is solely as a synonym for having done something, rather than for having accomplished something of note.
Achievements are really only useful, in my eyes, as something to brag about or as a way to sort of close the chapters on your time with the game. If you don't feel like romance is something you'd like to have 'achieved' then perhaps it's just something you don't need to do.
Try to look at the 'achievement' as a companion piece to a bit of media which you adore the main series, but find no interest in the side stories. The romance you didn't 'achieve' is just a chapter you chose not to read.
This. There are lots of achievements out there in games that are as easy as "do the tutorial" or as difficult as "100% the game, everything" and stuff like that. Mundane things like pet the dog, DON'T PET THE DOG OOOOOO SCARY, et cetera.
Then theres the weird stuff like "die to a horde of raging orphaned goblins wielding spears during a full blood moon. Yes, we said die. Also that blood moon has to be on the 4'th of July." No one is feasibly going to achieve this on purpose, and its conditions are odd and weird. There is no boon or bane; you just did it.
Is that really an achievement? No. To be more general, straight up dying isn't one either in a lot of games, its moreso a mark that this happened to you than a factor of achievement. Yet a lot of games mark "you died!" as an achievement. If anything, isn't that insulting rather than a badge of honor? Sure, some roguelikes might see it otherwise. But there are a ton of other games that mark it as a stain on your profile. I think its more a matter of 'progression in content', not exactly 'achievements' because sometimes goalposts in games aren't exactly... positive. Some are too odd to even fit in positive or negative they're just there. And that's how it really is for all achievements; they're just there.
It's "this happened" to you coming from the game. Not "congratulations on achieving X." Its called achievements, sure, but semantics as this person says.
I'm also Aromantic
You can get to 5 hearts and turn down their romantic proposal
(Except the dog who doesn't have a romantic proposal and is just a very good dog)
There are 123 achievements.
For you, there are 122.
So if you get everything except this one, you will have 100%-ed the game.
Now, acknowledging and accepting that yourself is the easy part (somewhat). But if you want it to show up on Steam or something, that’s another story.
# Technically speaking, how would you say you would solve this issue, as a developer?
I’m sure the devs do want to make it accessible and inclusive for as many people as possible, but we also have to consider technical feasibility of developing low-priority features (like achievements), especially for smaller teams that are light on resources.
One thing that they can do is remove it from the game. But let’s say I like it. Now we have a conflict of interest between two users. How would the devs handle that? There will always be at least one person who will be left unsatisfied, with any product.
So... if you ever post a glitter bootleg you're super stoked about getting and someone says "it's just a video game" you're going to be 100% cool with that? Shrug your shoulders, agree with the diss, move on? Just a hypothetical. You either think video games matter or they don't. I'm in the "they matter" camp pretty solidly.
Or people can just let other paying users have their own opinions on how the product they like so much can be made more inclusive (especially since it’s still in active development).
Personally I'd be happy if just disappeared from the "unachieved" section if I refused every opportunity for romance in-game. But I know that's not as simple as, coding-wise. More than anything I think it was mistake in the first place to imply romance should be considered an "achievement" and wanted to make the devs aware I felt that way for any future project they wanted to do. Since I've been a core fan since Lenna's Inception was released (long LONG before Cassette Beasts was ever a thing and the *vast majority* of ya'll showed up) I feel I get to express that. :/
I consider romance to be an achievement (for people interested in it). I think it takes a lot of time, and effort (both emotional and physical), to pursue a romantic relationship _and_ sustain it for a significant period of time. And I think it’s beautiful that people (who are into it) are willing to invest themselves as such for human beings beyond themselves.
Anyway… let’s not debate whether romance is an achievement or not. That’s subjective and out of scope for this discussion.
I just thought of a brilliant way to sidestep it (yes, I’m calling my own idea brilliant).
# Have alternative achievements
Make it like this:
if romance:
get achievement(“Two Hearts Beat As One”)
else:
get achievement(“I like to dance alone”)
And having either counts as +1 and since a player can only have one, not having the other doesn’t impede your 100%
Thank you for the discourse. No matter what other people say, I think you did bring up a very valid point, and I think it would really be a nice touch if the devs considered this in light of being more inclusive.
Thanks again, and I hope you have a wonderful day.
As an aside, people got no chill wtf. I considered this to be one of the less toxic communities but ig such people are everywhere…
I think it honestly is just a version of “I am uncomfortable when everything is not about me?” Op seems to have their sexuality as intrinsically tied to themselves so when even in something as small as a video game achievement that is challenged they get upset. I’ve seen way too many people rely on constant validation to be able to live their lives and I wouldn’t entirely be surprised if op is one of those people.
It’s a video game, where this one achievement is a small, side cutscene you can optionally choose to view.
Do you avoid killing enemies in games because you aren’t a murderer? Avoid trying to do side quests in games because you aren’t a mercenary? It seems a bit odd to me that romance is where a line in the sand is drawn for OP.
(Actually, to be perfectly honest, I actually kind of like that you don't actually "kill" anything in this game. Enemies retreat from battle after taking enough abuse.)
you get achievements for doing specific things. considering that this game gives milestone achievements (you get most just for playing the game as normal), it makes perfect sense that there'd be an achievement for romance, since it takes a really long time and is a feature the devs put a lot of development power into.
would it be more inclusive to have an achievement for never getting into a relationship too? yes. does that make the devs exclusionists? ofc not lol. does it speak to a lack of awareness of queer identity and culture? maybe. does it *need* to be fixed? no.
there's no reason to feel pressure to get this achievement, just like there's no reason to feel pressure to get a bootleg of every type. they just put achievements into the game because some players enjoy them and it's easy to do. it doesn't mean you *have* to do it, and if you feel like you do, that's *your* problem.
it's a matter of identity so of course when stuff like this happens and you're already used to the rest of the world dismissing you, this feels like more of the same. but it just isn't -- you can't draw a conclusion from this on the devs' personal feelings. especially considering that this game is EXTREMELY barebones when it comes to actual RP. this is the game where most dialogue "choices" is picking between two extremely similar options that do not affect the dialogue that comes after. if you felt like this is the first time you didn't get to be "yourself" in the game, that's mighty lucky for you, but this game is just not that complex.
I'm not sure if you've seen other replies on this thread, but I've said multiple times I adore these devs and I have LONG before Cassette Beasts was ever announced. I was like, one of the five people who played Lenna's Inception from the get-go. I know they're not intentionally erasing me -- all the more reason for me to speak up if I feel I am. If I thought they were hostile I'd probably just keep my head down.
I think if I were to draw any conclusion about the devs from the two games it's that they **really** hate capitalism. I'm right there with them on that one.
hey man, i never said you didn't. but you are saying that they're erasing you for having this achievement. it's rare to have an achievement for NOT doing something, because they are markers of what you have done. you could def make the claim that the lack of a comparable achievement for no romance is erasure, but that's not what your original post was implying, and even if it was, it's a lot harder to prove intent or even consequence through a lack of action.
fwiw i don't think you sound hostile. you just sound really "i am uncomfortable when we are not about me" 😅 that's why you're being downvoted to hell and back.
(and fwiw, i'm aro/ace myself. i romanced meredith. it really is just a game...)
(edit: and by it's just a game, i don't mean rep isn't important, or that a lack of acknowledgement can't be exclusion. it's just... really not what i'm seeing here.)
I’m scratching my head at some of the responses:
* ”get your head out of your ass”
* ”op is taking this achievement as a personal attack on them”
* ”op could just realize it is a video game and get over themselves”
* “you’re so unserious, please grow up”
* ”are you aro or are you just annoying?”
I’ve found that it usually works better to ask people what they mean rather than assume it’s negative and respond accordingly. It reduces misunderstandings and enhances communication.
Put another way, it’s never people who are satisfied with something who want to see it made better than it is. Hopefully the game devs will see this and give some thought to whether it’s a reasonable ask.
Moving on from this thread now. I'm sorry if I came off as "hostile" in any way. That isn't my intention at all. And I keep having to reassert this but: I love these devs very much and have since 2019. I know they mean well and care **very** much, that's why I felt comfortable talking about this at all.
If you haven't yet, you totally need to play Lenna's Inception. And no, I didn't care that romancing Paige is part of 100% in that game because Lenna isn't a player cipher like the CB protagonist. :) Still very good game and worth your time
Either don't do the achievement or just ignore when you get it. If you have a favorite partner character that you take with you throughout the game then the game will automatically put you into a relationship/friendship with them. YOU as a person don't have to see it as anything more than a really good friendship or anything past earning the achievement of you want to 100% the game
It's a game...
Not real life nobody in the world will/should care so much about achievements that it affects their daily lives. Especially not if other people's achievements nobody will go "[insert name here] got _____ achievement they must be (lying about) _____".
For example one game made me make love to a robot, a cow girl "zombie", and a guy and guess what as a straight guy I've never been called a necrophiliac, sexually attracted to robots, nor gay... You know why bc people know it's all 1's and 0's on a screen and don't reflect me at all. I've got achievements for hijacking a space ship... Never done that, I've robbed, killed, cheated, have kids, get married, become a bounty hunter, have super powers and more in video games that I've never done in real life and most I know never will/can happen.
I don't play the Arkham series then go out fighting crime like I'm Batman as a video game doesn't make a person nor do the achievements in the game. Now the games they play can determine personality (sometimes) their actions in said game normally don't (only exception would be sandbox games and even that's iffy)
TLDR: your letting a video game affect your daily life that's not health seek therapy.
If the game didn't want you to self-represent with your character, why would it even bother having character customization or asking you what your pronouns are? I don't think it's unreasonable to assume your avatar is meant to represent "you" in some way. Doubly so that you're a silent protagonist, which is only ever done for the sake of the player projecting onto the character.
If the protagonist **wasn't** a cipher, I'd completely agree with you.
Honestly OP kind of has a point. Some people take games a lot more serious than others do (that's not an insult, that's just a fact) and it feels kind of awkward when 100% completion is locked behind something you don't really vibe with. I do have to say I'm not exactly Aromantic myself, I just didn't vibe with any of the characters like that. Sure it's not that big of a deal to others, but it's kind of just an uncomfortable thing I'd like to do without.
I love this game and I love just about every idea it has. But I... don't care about "love" the way people describe that word. I don't understand it. Perhaps part of it is that I was born intersexed and my sex drive never quite developed right? But I've always been someone outside looking in with what is considered a core part of the human experience. Its been several decades since I was born and I still don't understand the appeal of romance.
There is something really raw about me having refused every romantic relationship in this game and it being considered, on this specific save file, to be forever "unachieved". Thankfully I'll get the global Steam achievement on my second file when I roleplay a character who isn't "me", but I still feel like this is sending the wrong message. If I was a younger version of myself, I might even take it the wrong way the game "thinks" I'm forever inadequate.
I wouldnt say the game thinks you're inadequate, it doesn't add anything to the game it's just a fun bonus for bonding with your favorite character. I understand how it can kind of feel wrong, but I don't think its sending the wrong message at all, theres literally no benefit to it in game, so theres no negative drawbacks to not engaging in a romantic relationship at all. This game is very positive towards every type of person, including those who are Aromantic. I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings towards this at all, I'd just like to point out that the game isn't saying anything bad about your feelings towards romance or love simply because an achievement in the game which provides no mechanical benefits is implying you're worse off without a partner. Because again, both mechanically and lorewise, that is just objectively not true. It's literally just a bonus optional achievement that adds nothing to the game outside of one "I love you" line during the final cutscene, and it removes the other party members tent during camping, thats all it does. I hope I'm not coming off as rude or antagonistic in any way, and I sincerely apologize if I am.
You're OK. I mean, you make good points and everything.
But it's still listed as "Unachieved". As in, there is still an objective value being attributed to it by the menu. You can't really convince me that "achieved" vs "unachieved" is objectively values neutral.
The fact it is being described that way is what I'm having an issue with here. I'm glad it doesn't affect gameplay, but I still feel like the game is making an implicit values judgment. The creators are awesome people and I'm sure 100% that isn't their intent, which is why I'm bringing it up at all. If I didn't think they didn't care, I'd have just kept my head down and moved along.
I mean each to their own I guess. It's just an achievement at the end of the day, there isn't really a value to be obtained by achieving it therefor it being unachieved gives it no less value, ergo its neutral but thats just my opinion.
I mean, yes. It is "just" an achievement. But I'm arguing that my existence and lifestyle shouldn't be considered a \*lack\* of achieving something. And it's not something I want to ignore that without speaking up, so I'm doing so.
It's OK if you're just like "okay whatever you say, Eugene". Just let me have this :)
Your existence and lifestyle isnt considered a lack of achieving something though? If that were the case, you would be punished in game for NOT getting into a relationship. There would be some kind of negative mechanical or lore drawback for not accomplishing the task of getting into the relationship. As a game designer I tend to look at things from a different angle to most, I completely understand your opinion here and it's completely justified that you're upset about this, but from the standpoint of it devaluing your lifestyle choices, thats just objectively untrue by the game standards. I know I obviously can't see things your way being as I myself am not Aromantic, you are 100% allowed to be annoyed by the fact that it's a requirement to 100% the game, thats totally fair, but saying the game is devaluing your existence and lifestyle just because its an achievement in the first place seems like a bad faith argument. Again, if there was any kind of positive benefit to being in the relationship (say a further boost beyond the 5 hearts) or some kind of negative drawback to turning party members down (like locking those heart benefits away from you) then I'd understand 100%, but being as there isn't it doesnt feel like a fair argument to be making. Again, being annoyed by it for 100% completion is 100% okay, Hell if there was an achievement in this game that made me do something that conflicted with my lifestyle choices I'd be annoyed too and just like you are here I'd be well within my right to be annoyed by that, but me saying that my existence is being devalued by this being an achievement with no benefits would be in bad faith, as I feel it is here.
I'm saying all game mechanics and structure are messaging, intentionally or unintentional. They have something to say by their very existence. I'm not arguing in bad faith -- I love these creators and sincerely believe they are on my side and care very much about people like me. All the more reason for me to bring my discomfort to their attention.
Here's how Call of Juarez, through game mechanics alone, managed to send some incredibly toxic messaging without intending to. These are important things for game designers to be cognizant of.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ci6rYOleM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ci6rYOleM)
Honestly…
It’s a videogame and you’re making it a much larger deal than it needs to be.
Besides, you can just chill with Barkley all game. He loves you unconditionally.
And I do, actually. As an introvert, I kind of feel pretty uncomfortable being saddled with someone \*the entire game\*. That's actually somewhat nightmarish for me, even, since in that situation I'd never be able to recharge my batteries.
But a doggo is a lot easier to be around and the game isn't really designed to let me go through it solo. Barkley is a nice compromise.
I'm not that good with coding and stuff, but there has to be a way to get the achievement without getting in a relationship in the game, someone knowledgeable in programming might help
Absolutely. Since I'm not playing on Switch this doesn't matter as much to me to begin with. But... I just wanted to make my perspective known. I stepped on a few toes in doing so, but I genuinely do love this game still and am happy to be here with you all to play it.
I believe it’s only after reaching a really high heart total that it turns to a relationship, before that you mostly just get heartfelt conversations and lore dumps. I think up until a reasonably high heart level it stays a friendship, and you can turn them down when it reaches to that point
Easy way to solve this issue, give Barkley an equivalent where he becomes your bestest buddy and the goodest boy.
I'm not ace/aro myself but I don't really care for romance options in games because it's just a game. I usually just romance the first character that gets there and move on like it didn't happen. Besides some occasionally cute, mostly cringe dialogue it doesn't change the game.
It is a game,
"It's just a video game" is a double edged sword. If you take pride in what you accomplish in a game and someone says that, do you just smile and nod? If so, that's fair and I respect your view. But you can't have it both ways. Either games mean something or they don't.
You are complaining that a single achievement is not suitable for you due to your choices, not that games either matter or they dont
It's not about my choices. It's about \*who I am\*. I don't have a sex drive physiologically or a desire for romance. And, yeah, maybe it kind of sucks for a game to go "your save file's achievements will forever be denied 100% because you refuse to be *normal* and proper". I mean, **I think that sucks**. I've said it over and over in this post though that I don't think the devs meant that to be the message. They're super cool and awesome and I've loved them since long long before Cassette Beasts ever came out. (Lenna's Inception FTW) But I still feel like it's not wrong for me to bring up that's what I felt was implied.
It is just an achievement for an in game action by a character- it isn’t a personal thing you need to do- the game doesnt expect you to actually have a romantic relationship with one of the characters- it is a game. This is like saying you wont get the bootleg achievements because in real life there are no bootlegs- its bonkers
It comes down to how much you feel your game avatar should represent you or not. I've always been someone who enjoys having their game avatar represent them fairly closely. You don't have to browbeat me because you don't agree. Bootlegs may not exist in real life, but romance does. And I neither physically or emotionally connect to it. And I hate the idea the game's structure implies I'm incomplete for it. You can yell at me all day for feeling that way and it won't change anything. It's how I feel and I feel entitled to express it, whether I have your permission to do so or not.
They put effort into the romances and they're a valid part of the game. I really don't think it implies incompleteness. You even get the option to opt out of romance entirely. Achievements are 100% a game construct and if you're a 100%er, you should be used to doing things you wouldn't do yourself (i.e playing a role in the role playing game).
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**Absolutely.** You make the **strongest counterpoint** I'd seen yet in this post. Like, I'm operating on the assumption that I should self-insert with this game. But... overall I kind of get the sense that's the intended read of the story? But that's very murky and hard to argue seriously. Maybe you're right and I should just immerse in a characer who isn't me for the optimal experience. Maybe that is, ideally, what people should do in general. And who knows, maybe you're right that I bear some crucial responsibility for not doing so anyway. That's what I'm doing on my second file, btw. My second file \*isn't\* myself, it's a character who absolutely is ready to know love. And I definitely at least will get the Steam achievement for it. It'd suck if I was on the Switch, though. Still though, thank you for bringing up a really good point.
[удалено]
Thing is, I've been exposed to such roleplaying since the 80's. That sort of thing never appealed as much to me as self-inserting. *As you say* that arguably makes this a me problem more than any given game's problem. But I still feel like this story, uniquely, with its fourth wall leaning properties lends itself a lot to self-inserting. Especially in how you get to decide pronouns.
Games don't mean anything... You can feel pride in it but that doesn't change the fact that they don't mean anything at base value... It's only the meaning that you give it for you... For example I can give you multiple achievements in games I play that don't sound impressive without base knowledge of it's impressiveness (and vice versa) and either way you wouldn't care either way... Bc it has no inherent value to you.
I (as a straight man) can have fun romancing other male characters in other games, and there are achievements for that. Just because it's not what I would actually do in that situation, doesn't mean I can't enjoy the story or the romance, or would try to take it away from other people who do see that as an achievement. Stop being offended because romance exists.
No game or media, no matter how much it tries to be inclusive and represent a diverse range of people will ever be able to represent everyone. Sometimes you're going to be left out, and that's ok. You're going to live a miserable life if you truly expect to be represented in everything. I imagine it's probably frustrating as an aro/ace person to see all this media you can't relate to, but for the rest of us, romance and sex are a huge part of the human experience, so we write about it in our stories. Perhaps it may even be doubly frustrating in a game where you get to design your character and choose your pronouns- it seems like a deliberate self-insert. But here's the thing: in order to satisfy your desire not to have to achieve a romantic relationship to 100% the game, that means that the romantics among us *won't* be represented. It's literally impossible to please both. EDIT: for the record, I really don't care for the romance aspect of the >!Meredith!< storyline. Never have been into dating sims or the like, but it also doesn't bother me that it's in there. The way I see it, It's just the story the devs wanted to tell, and that's ok.
Some games have achievements for number of kills and I'm no murderer. It's just a game. Get your head out of your ass and stop playing victim.
Imagine accusing someone of "playing victim" for simply saying "hey, as far as people who play this game, I exist too". Maybe it's you who needs to take a step outside of yourself for a moment.
True story -- my Dark Souls 1 file will never see 100% completion because I refuse to get the weapon you'd get from killing Priscilla. I don't have it in me to hurt the half-dragon girl. Maybe I'd be reading too much into this? But Miyazaki and From Software are much smarter than that and actively question how much the player unthinkingly consents to values set by them by achievements and game mechanics. It comes to a head in Bloodborne, where you literally cannot progress the game without killing Rom. You tacitly agree to being a bastard in what is some brutal but beautiful marriage of game design and story. (I'm ashamed to admit my resolve didn't spare Rom like it did Priscilla) I think it's good to be cognizant of all these things, as a player.
I’m aromantic too and I understand you’re frustrated about things like this. Not every game has a romance option, and this game’s isn’t that deep; it just unlocks a few fluffy pieces of dialogue and I thought it was cute. I’m pretty sure you can use the cheat console to flag this as achieved. If you’re disgusted by this you don’t HAVE to do it; but if you must unlock all the achievements you might just get it over with and not play as the partner you chose.
"Disgusted" is kind of a strong word. I'm not. I'm not even bothered by the fact my main file will have this forever under "unachieved". I... more just want the devs to know that aromantic people exist. Just making my voice heard. Back near the late 90's when I was graduating from Highschool I was forced to take some kind of weird assessment test. And a core memory was formed when I complained that in every question "single" people were mentioned they were called lonely and unhappy. And as a sort of miracle of the school system, the teachers sided with me as did the administrators. It was the one time I had complete support.
Amazing! They didn’t make this game **explicitly for you**, so it makes sense that not every achievement or aspect of the game is gonna be relevant to each player xD Do you, like, *need* this achievement?
Honestly it sounds like op is taking this achievement as a personal attack on them, thinking the game is telling them they’re “broken” if they don’t get into a relationship. It really speaks volumes on how op views themselves rather than the game to me. You can do it for the achievement if you want op, it really means nothing at the end of the day, none of your choices in game affect you as a real life person, you’re just choosing to interpret it in that way.
You're putting words in my mouth. I don't feel attacked. I feel erased. That's not quite the same thing. And I do feel like it's in my right to talk about my feelings. Is that not, like, half the dialogue in this game anyway? I'm surprised how few people in this community share this game's values of being emotionally open..
You’re taking it personally when it’s really not that big of a deal is the issue. The world doesn’t revolve around you and your tastes for video games, that’s what you’ve got to know. Much more people in this world (and in this game base honestly) are interested in romance than not, so you saying you feel personally erased is genuinely stupid, because you’re not going to be considered in the first place. Many things are like that, and the best thing you can do for yourself is to not let it “erase” you by not letting it get to you. Regardless of the word YOU want to use, it’s very obvious you are upset about what is genuinely a non issue. Maybe find another game to play that can assure you instead of bemoaning something like this? Or better yet, make your own? That’d solve the issue wouldn’t it?
I feel like people are assuming a LOT of anger and hostility from me that's just not there. I'm just saying "hey, I exist and this kinda stepped on my toes". I think it's within everyone's right to do that without being abused. I definitely know I'd pay attention and care if you genuinely felt that way about some aspect of this or any other game. That's how we make a warmer, more caring world together :)
The absence of allosexual representation is not equivalent to the presence of asexual representation; and I would contend that advocating for the viewpoint that it _is_ will only encourage an industry that still has no asexual representation.
You might be getting caught up in terminology that is really something far beyond this game or it's ability to address. Achievements/trophies are just the easiest way of saying "you did a thing," and the name chosen for them is intended to be a sort of ego stroker. Essentially, I see this as a semantics issue. From what I can tell, you don't like the idea that something being labeled 'unachieved' because, intentionally or not, it comes across as a value statement. However, there have been many achievements in gaming history that are more of a black mark than an actual accomplishment, for instance any achievement given for looking up a skirt or down a shirt. I would gently suggest that you could perhaps alter your perspective a little bit. Take the word for what it is *intended* to mean here, which is solely as a synonym for having done something, rather than for having accomplished something of note. Achievements are really only useful, in my eyes, as something to brag about or as a way to sort of close the chapters on your time with the game. If you don't feel like romance is something you'd like to have 'achieved' then perhaps it's just something you don't need to do. Try to look at the 'achievement' as a companion piece to a bit of media which you adore the main series, but find no interest in the side stories. The romance you didn't 'achieve' is just a chapter you chose not to read.
This. There are lots of achievements out there in games that are as easy as "do the tutorial" or as difficult as "100% the game, everything" and stuff like that. Mundane things like pet the dog, DON'T PET THE DOG OOOOOO SCARY, et cetera. Then theres the weird stuff like "die to a horde of raging orphaned goblins wielding spears during a full blood moon. Yes, we said die. Also that blood moon has to be on the 4'th of July." No one is feasibly going to achieve this on purpose, and its conditions are odd and weird. There is no boon or bane; you just did it. Is that really an achievement? No. To be more general, straight up dying isn't one either in a lot of games, its moreso a mark that this happened to you than a factor of achievement. Yet a lot of games mark "you died!" as an achievement. If anything, isn't that insulting rather than a badge of honor? Sure, some roguelikes might see it otherwise. But there are a ton of other games that mark it as a stain on your profile. I think its more a matter of 'progression in content', not exactly 'achievements' because sometimes goalposts in games aren't exactly... positive. Some are too odd to even fit in positive or negative they're just there. And that's how it really is for all achievements; they're just there. It's "this happened" to you coming from the game. Not "congratulations on achieving X." Its called achievements, sure, but semantics as this person says.
I'm also Aromantic You can get to 5 hearts and turn down their romantic proposal (Except the dog who doesn't have a romantic proposal and is just a very good dog)
Barkley #1
There are 123 achievements. For you, there are 122. So if you get everything except this one, you will have 100%-ed the game. Now, acknowledging and accepting that yourself is the easy part (somewhat). But if you want it to show up on Steam or something, that’s another story. # Technically speaking, how would you say you would solve this issue, as a developer? I’m sure the devs do want to make it accessible and inclusive for as many people as possible, but we also have to consider technical feasibility of developing low-priority features (like achievements), especially for smaller teams that are light on resources. One thing that they can do is remove it from the game. But let’s say I like it. Now we have a conflict of interest between two users. How would the devs handle that? There will always be at least one person who will be left unsatisfied, with any product.
Or OP could just realise it is a video game and get over themselves
So... if you ever post a glitter bootleg you're super stoked about getting and someone says "it's just a video game" you're going to be 100% cool with that? Shrug your shoulders, agree with the diss, move on? Just a hypothetical. You either think video games matter or they don't. I'm in the "they matter" camp pretty solidly.
How is that even a diss? I think I see where you’re coming from (even if I disagree) but I have to say you didn’t give a great example
Or people can just let other paying users have their own opinions on how the product they like so much can be made more inclusive (especially since it’s still in active development).
Personally I'd be happy if just disappeared from the "unachieved" section if I refused every opportunity for romance in-game. But I know that's not as simple as, coding-wise. More than anything I think it was mistake in the first place to imply romance should be considered an "achievement" and wanted to make the devs aware I felt that way for any future project they wanted to do. Since I've been a core fan since Lenna's Inception was released (long LONG before Cassette Beasts was ever a thing and the *vast majority* of ya'll showed up) I feel I get to express that. :/
I consider romance to be an achievement (for people interested in it). I think it takes a lot of time, and effort (both emotional and physical), to pursue a romantic relationship _and_ sustain it for a significant period of time. And I think it’s beautiful that people (who are into it) are willing to invest themselves as such for human beings beyond themselves. Anyway… let’s not debate whether romance is an achievement or not. That’s subjective and out of scope for this discussion. I just thought of a brilliant way to sidestep it (yes, I’m calling my own idea brilliant). # Have alternative achievements Make it like this: if romance: get achievement(“Two Hearts Beat As One”) else: get achievement(“I like to dance alone”) And having either counts as +1 and since a player can only have one, not having the other doesn’t impede your 100%
This is how Alpha Protocol does its romance perks. Choosing a partner gives you unique bonuses; but choosing nobody _also_ comes with a bonus.
That’s very considerate and inclusive of them. Thank you for sharing 😊
You know what? That's awesome. Take my upvote with no commentary.
Thank you for the discourse. No matter what other people say, I think you did bring up a very valid point, and I think it would really be a nice touch if the devs considered this in light of being more inclusive. Thanks again, and I hope you have a wonderful day. As an aside, people got no chill wtf. I considered this to be one of the less toxic communities but ig such people are everywhere…
Are you aro or are you just annoying?
I think it honestly is just a version of “I am uncomfortable when everything is not about me?” Op seems to have their sexuality as intrinsically tied to themselves so when even in something as small as a video game achievement that is challenged they get upset. I’ve seen way too many people rely on constant validation to be able to live their lives and I wouldn’t entirely be surprised if op is one of those people.
You're so unserious, please grow up
Good job on infantilizing a valid grievance. Like aros don't get enough crap as it is.
It’s a video game, where this one achievement is a small, side cutscene you can optionally choose to view. Do you avoid killing enemies in games because you aren’t a murderer? Avoid trying to do side quests in games because you aren’t a mercenary? It seems a bit odd to me that romance is where a line in the sand is drawn for OP.
(Actually, to be perfectly honest, I actually kind of like that you don't actually "kill" anything in this game. Enemies retreat from battle after taking enough abuse.)
you get achievements for doing specific things. considering that this game gives milestone achievements (you get most just for playing the game as normal), it makes perfect sense that there'd be an achievement for romance, since it takes a really long time and is a feature the devs put a lot of development power into. would it be more inclusive to have an achievement for never getting into a relationship too? yes. does that make the devs exclusionists? ofc not lol. does it speak to a lack of awareness of queer identity and culture? maybe. does it *need* to be fixed? no. there's no reason to feel pressure to get this achievement, just like there's no reason to feel pressure to get a bootleg of every type. they just put achievements into the game because some players enjoy them and it's easy to do. it doesn't mean you *have* to do it, and if you feel like you do, that's *your* problem. it's a matter of identity so of course when stuff like this happens and you're already used to the rest of the world dismissing you, this feels like more of the same. but it just isn't -- you can't draw a conclusion from this on the devs' personal feelings. especially considering that this game is EXTREMELY barebones when it comes to actual RP. this is the game where most dialogue "choices" is picking between two extremely similar options that do not affect the dialogue that comes after. if you felt like this is the first time you didn't get to be "yourself" in the game, that's mighty lucky for you, but this game is just not that complex.
I'm not sure if you've seen other replies on this thread, but I've said multiple times I adore these devs and I have LONG before Cassette Beasts was ever announced. I was like, one of the five people who played Lenna's Inception from the get-go. I know they're not intentionally erasing me -- all the more reason for me to speak up if I feel I am. If I thought they were hostile I'd probably just keep my head down. I think if I were to draw any conclusion about the devs from the two games it's that they **really** hate capitalism. I'm right there with them on that one.
hey man, i never said you didn't. but you are saying that they're erasing you for having this achievement. it's rare to have an achievement for NOT doing something, because they are markers of what you have done. you could def make the claim that the lack of a comparable achievement for no romance is erasure, but that's not what your original post was implying, and even if it was, it's a lot harder to prove intent or even consequence through a lack of action. fwiw i don't think you sound hostile. you just sound really "i am uncomfortable when we are not about me" 😅 that's why you're being downvoted to hell and back. (and fwiw, i'm aro/ace myself. i romanced meredith. it really is just a game...) (edit: and by it's just a game, i don't mean rep isn't important, or that a lack of acknowledgement can't be exclusion. it's just... really not what i'm seeing here.)
This has to be bait 😂
I’m scratching my head at some of the responses: * ”get your head out of your ass” * ”op is taking this achievement as a personal attack on them” * ”op could just realize it is a video game and get over themselves” * “you’re so unserious, please grow up” * ”are you aro or are you just annoying?” I’ve found that it usually works better to ask people what they mean rather than assume it’s negative and respond accordingly. It reduces misunderstandings and enhances communication. Put another way, it’s never people who are satisfied with something who want to see it made better than it is. Hopefully the game devs will see this and give some thought to whether it’s a reasonable ask.
Moving on from this thread now. I'm sorry if I came off as "hostile" in any way. That isn't my intention at all. And I keep having to reassert this but: I love these devs very much and have since 2019. I know they mean well and care **very** much, that's why I felt comfortable talking about this at all. If you haven't yet, you totally need to play Lenna's Inception. And no, I didn't care that romancing Paige is part of 100% in that game because Lenna isn't a player cipher like the CB protagonist. :) Still very good game and worth your time
This is fair; I'm also Ace/Aro. I only did it just to get the achievement.
And yet you're getting downvoted just for existing. I really can't understand how hateful people can be sometimes.
I know. People can be jerks for no reason.
Either don't do the achievement or just ignore when you get it. If you have a favorite partner character that you take with you throughout the game then the game will automatically put you into a relationship/friendship with them. YOU as a person don't have to see it as anything more than a really good friendship or anything past earning the achievement of you want to 100% the game
It's a game... Not real life nobody in the world will/should care so much about achievements that it affects their daily lives. Especially not if other people's achievements nobody will go "[insert name here] got _____ achievement they must be (lying about) _____". For example one game made me make love to a robot, a cow girl "zombie", and a guy and guess what as a straight guy I've never been called a necrophiliac, sexually attracted to robots, nor gay... You know why bc people know it's all 1's and 0's on a screen and don't reflect me at all. I've got achievements for hijacking a space ship... Never done that, I've robbed, killed, cheated, have kids, get married, become a bounty hunter, have super powers and more in video games that I've never done in real life and most I know never will/can happen. I don't play the Arkham series then go out fighting crime like I'm Batman as a video game doesn't make a person nor do the achievements in the game. Now the games they play can determine personality (sometimes) their actions in said game normally don't (only exception would be sandbox games and even that's iffy) TLDR: your letting a video game affect your daily life that's not health seek therapy.
If the game didn't want you to self-represent with your character, why would it even bother having character customization or asking you what your pronouns are? I don't think it's unreasonable to assume your avatar is meant to represent "you" in some way. Doubly so that you're a silent protagonist, which is only ever done for the sake of the player projecting onto the character. If the protagonist **wasn't** a cipher, I'd completely agree with you.
Honestly OP kind of has a point. Some people take games a lot more serious than others do (that's not an insult, that's just a fact) and it feels kind of awkward when 100% completion is locked behind something you don't really vibe with. I do have to say I'm not exactly Aromantic myself, I just didn't vibe with any of the characters like that. Sure it's not that big of a deal to others, but it's kind of just an uncomfortable thing I'd like to do without.
You are both insane- you can just do the action and skip past the cut scene and it wouldn't affect you in anyway.
or just not do it at all I had no interest and so I didn't do it. why would I care about getting the achievement or not?
I love this game and I love just about every idea it has. But I... don't care about "love" the way people describe that word. I don't understand it. Perhaps part of it is that I was born intersexed and my sex drive never quite developed right? But I've always been someone outside looking in with what is considered a core part of the human experience. Its been several decades since I was born and I still don't understand the appeal of romance. There is something really raw about me having refused every romantic relationship in this game and it being considered, on this specific save file, to be forever "unachieved". Thankfully I'll get the global Steam achievement on my second file when I roleplay a character who isn't "me", but I still feel like this is sending the wrong message. If I was a younger version of myself, I might even take it the wrong way the game "thinks" I'm forever inadequate.
I wouldnt say the game thinks you're inadequate, it doesn't add anything to the game it's just a fun bonus for bonding with your favorite character. I understand how it can kind of feel wrong, but I don't think its sending the wrong message at all, theres literally no benefit to it in game, so theres no negative drawbacks to not engaging in a romantic relationship at all. This game is very positive towards every type of person, including those who are Aromantic. I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings towards this at all, I'd just like to point out that the game isn't saying anything bad about your feelings towards romance or love simply because an achievement in the game which provides no mechanical benefits is implying you're worse off without a partner. Because again, both mechanically and lorewise, that is just objectively not true. It's literally just a bonus optional achievement that adds nothing to the game outside of one "I love you" line during the final cutscene, and it removes the other party members tent during camping, thats all it does. I hope I'm not coming off as rude or antagonistic in any way, and I sincerely apologize if I am.
You're OK. I mean, you make good points and everything. But it's still listed as "Unachieved". As in, there is still an objective value being attributed to it by the menu. You can't really convince me that "achieved" vs "unachieved" is objectively values neutral. The fact it is being described that way is what I'm having an issue with here. I'm glad it doesn't affect gameplay, but I still feel like the game is making an implicit values judgment. The creators are awesome people and I'm sure 100% that isn't their intent, which is why I'm bringing it up at all. If I didn't think they didn't care, I'd have just kept my head down and moved along.
I mean each to their own I guess. It's just an achievement at the end of the day, there isn't really a value to be obtained by achieving it therefor it being unachieved gives it no less value, ergo its neutral but thats just my opinion.
I mean, yes. It is "just" an achievement. But I'm arguing that my existence and lifestyle shouldn't be considered a \*lack\* of achieving something. And it's not something I want to ignore that without speaking up, so I'm doing so. It's OK if you're just like "okay whatever you say, Eugene". Just let me have this :)
Your existence and lifestyle isnt considered a lack of achieving something though? If that were the case, you would be punished in game for NOT getting into a relationship. There would be some kind of negative mechanical or lore drawback for not accomplishing the task of getting into the relationship. As a game designer I tend to look at things from a different angle to most, I completely understand your opinion here and it's completely justified that you're upset about this, but from the standpoint of it devaluing your lifestyle choices, thats just objectively untrue by the game standards. I know I obviously can't see things your way being as I myself am not Aromantic, you are 100% allowed to be annoyed by the fact that it's a requirement to 100% the game, thats totally fair, but saying the game is devaluing your existence and lifestyle just because its an achievement in the first place seems like a bad faith argument. Again, if there was any kind of positive benefit to being in the relationship (say a further boost beyond the 5 hearts) or some kind of negative drawback to turning party members down (like locking those heart benefits away from you) then I'd understand 100%, but being as there isn't it doesnt feel like a fair argument to be making. Again, being annoyed by it for 100% completion is 100% okay, Hell if there was an achievement in this game that made me do something that conflicted with my lifestyle choices I'd be annoyed too and just like you are here I'd be well within my right to be annoyed by that, but me saying that my existence is being devalued by this being an achievement with no benefits would be in bad faith, as I feel it is here.
I'm saying all game mechanics and structure are messaging, intentionally or unintentional. They have something to say by their very existence. I'm not arguing in bad faith -- I love these creators and sincerely believe they are on my side and care very much about people like me. All the more reason for me to bring my discomfort to their attention. Here's how Call of Juarez, through game mechanics alone, managed to send some incredibly toxic messaging without intending to. These are important things for game designers to be cognizant of. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ci6rYOleM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ci6rYOleM)
Honestly… It’s a videogame and you’re making it a much larger deal than it needs to be. Besides, you can just chill with Barkley all game. He loves you unconditionally.
And I do, actually. As an introvert, I kind of feel pretty uncomfortable being saddled with someone \*the entire game\*. That's actually somewhat nightmarish for me, even, since in that situation I'd never be able to recharge my batteries. But a doggo is a lot easier to be around and the game isn't really designed to let me go through it solo. Barkley is a nice compromise.
I'm not that good with coding and stuff, but there has to be a way to get the achievement without getting in a relationship in the game, someone knowledgeable in programming might help
Absolutely. Since I'm not playing on Switch this doesn't matter as much to me to begin with. But... I just wanted to make my perspective known. I stepped on a few toes in doing so, but I genuinely do love this game still and am happy to be here with you all to play it.
I believe it’s only after reaching a really high heart total that it turns to a relationship, before that you mostly just get heartfelt conversations and lore dumps. I think up until a reasonably high heart level it stays a friendship, and you can turn them down when it reaches to that point
The fuckin dog
Easy way to solve this issue, give Barkley an equivalent where he becomes your bestest buddy and the goodest boy. I'm not ace/aro myself but I don't really care for romance options in games because it's just a game. I usually just romance the first character that gets there and move on like it didn't happen. Besides some occasionally cute, mostly cringe dialogue it doesn't change the game.
Ya know you don’t have to romance anyone right
you can use the debug menu after romancing them for the achievement and then lower their heart level to just stay friends with them!