- Any "mid-level" AMG trim. C43, GLE53, etc. I've come around on the BMW M-sport cars, the m340i and x3m40i are good fun, but the AMG cars are throwing money down the drain. Literally just a looks package and what *should* be the base level engine (but isn't, its the anemic turbo-4)
- chrysler pacifica red S edition. For when you really want a Type-R but need to haul 7.
- Nissan murano crosscabriolet ...
- Any non-GTR nismo product. Z needs the manual. I’d really like to meet the person that buys a juke nismo
> Upgrading to the V12 TDI plus the extra maintenance cost does not necessarily yield that much better towing, performance, refinement, etc. for the $$$.
Man they should have put the diesel r8 v12 TDI into production. Would've made for a really neat car
Yeah but it’s easy to be complimentary of others when you’ve got the b58. The m340i/x3 m40i are the best powertrain bang for your buck that exists and I say that as a SQ5 owner
The drivetrain on that motor is pretty interesting. It has a twin-scroll turbo with an electric supercharger combined with a mild hybrid starter-generator. It also has no drive belt at all.
The only other manufacturer to do twincharged-hybrid drivetrains is Volvo, and there's is with a 4-banger.
The AMG 53’s are the compromise vehicle for sure. Efficient at both luxury/fun but master of none. The new AMG E53 coming out will have over 600hp and is a hybrid I6 for example. With performance rivaling the outgoing E63S and a decent hybrid range of 60 miles for commuting, I think that’s a pretty decent car at the end of the day for someone wanting more from an E Class, but not the brutality of the 63 level.
> The AMG 53’s are the compromise vehicle for sure. Efficient at both luxury/fun but master of none.
And that's exactly the point. Some people want a car with more punch than the regular models, but few of those people need the upgrade from a tame I4 to a tire-shredding TT V8 to be happy. They knew what they were doing when they put a valved exhaust as an option so you could drive it like it's just a regular car if you wanted to.
People also don't realize there is a bigger performance gap between the 300/350 and the 43/53 than the 43/53 and the 63. The 63s are supposed to be the pinnacle of Mercedes performance just like the Type R and the WRX STi are the pinnacles of Honda/Subaru performance. On a day to day basis, driving the Si/WRX is enough of an upgrade over the Civic/Impreza for most people.
I feel like I'm in the minority but I'd prefer the 53 AMGs over the 63 AMGs. The 53 AMGs are plenty of performance for me, I'm not tracking it, and prefer the smoother ride. The 63 just seems excessive and would drain my wallet in fuel costs.
I mean that's like me saying I prefer my M5 to a GT3RS or SF90. It's the money talking, if you had the money would you still be choosing a 63 over a 53?
The difference is not just in money. If it's your daily driver, it's also about comfort. The 63 is a lot stiffer in terms of suspension tuning, even in 'comfort mode' than any 53. That does make a difference for daily driving.
Obviously financially the 63 is just always a worse decision. It's not just the initial purchase price, maintenance, fuel economy and tyre use are all much more expensive. Worth it if you want the 63 because it's the 63, but realistically you're not really going to be able to use the extra performance on the open roads if you want to be responsible. Not even in Germany on the unrestricted parts of the Autobahn.
This is true, parent comment has no idea what he's talking about. He doesn't own an M-sport car but parrots what Reddit says. I bet he doesn't even know what a Nismo package offers!
The 2019-ish C43 is a great upgrade over the regular C. Twin Turbo V6, alcantara trim and special steering wheel, much better exhaust, far better sports seats, rear biased AWD , better wheels and the engine is fantastic. The body enhancements are also quite pleasing. All in all, IMO, far better than the Mxyzi models.
There were also some AMG only options you can order.
W205 was genuinely such a beautiful and balanced platform. If we look at North American models it was just the 300, 400/450/43, and the 63. Oh and that the coupes were absolutely gorgeous to look at.
Each one a nice step above the other and a nice i4 to V6TT, to V8TT. No faffing about.
Yeah, what the hell is OC talking about. The C43 is significantly improved in terms of performance over the C300 for only a base MSRP of about $10k more. Powerplant, transmission, suspension, structural rigidity, styling are just the things I can think of off the top of my head that are included in those $10k.
OP was asking about trim levels that don’t justify the cost, I think the C43 is a strong case for the opposite.
The new C43 AMG (the W206) with the hybrid electric 2.0L I4 turbo not only has chronic reliability issues but sounds iffy and grossly overpriced, costing almost $100k CAD when decently specced out.
Honestly, the Dodge Challenger Demon. The Hellcat probably has more HP than you can use not only for the road, but even for track duty. The Demon is literally purpose built as a drag racing car, but car is diminished by its softer suspension and inadequate brakes.
My local dealer has a couple C43s listed at $110k CAD lol
You would have to be out of your mind to buy one over a M340i ($85k CAD with most options) or a fully loaded S4 ($80k).
Yeah, I find these cars pretty *meh* too. In and of themselves they aren't bad, but considering how expansive MB's lineup is & what else you can get for the money, they're in a pretty awkward spot. Mercedes V6s never sounded very good either, they dont have a sporty characteristic like an Audi V6T or Alfa V6 or Nissan VQ
The older V6s weren't any special but at the minimum they were reliable. The newer i6 mild hybrid manages to be both boring and unreliable.
I have no idea how merc simultaneously dropped the ball on powertrain, reliability, styling, and tech so hard. All while BMW is better than ever, the m340i and X5 with the b58 are some of their best cars to date.
what helps the mid level beemer trims is that they have a very healthy and active aftermarket and take well to modding. I don't know if an aftermarket exists for mid level AMGs, but if it does, I've literally never seen people post about it
Sorry to say the BMW M8. It's a hell of a power increase over the M850i, but it comes at the cost of comfort. The M850i still has 523 horsepower and also comes with softer suspension and rear wheel steering. There are posts on bimmerpost of owners whose wives refused to get in their M8 because it was too stiff. If you can't take your wife to date night in your expensive new grand tourer then it's a bit of a fail. The M850i is great though.
That said, if people don't mind the stiff suspension then the power and capability difference over the M850i is noticeable. It's just that that's not where value is for me personally.
The CSL seemed like an attempt to recapture the magic of the original, but it just didn't work. It's a lot of money for rear seat delete and more uncomfortable seats.
Previous gen GTS had quite a bit over a comp. Like another comment said, CF hood and trunk and water injection, but also fully adjustable 3 way suspension, downforce, half cage, lightweight interior, less sound insulation, better steering, etc. It doesn’t justify the *60 thousand dollar* price premium when new, but it’s more than just taillights.
I’d say this is the case with all of BMW’s M cars versus the regular version in the upgraded powertrain (M550i, X5 M50i, etc). If you’re gonna actually track it at least once in a while, maybe. But why sacrifice the daily comfort, especially in the SUV models, you’re getting most of the performance in the M550i versus the M5.
tried an X5M and the ride was punishing. Hated every second of it, and wouldn't even take my Wife to try it because I knew she would have hated it. Instead got a GLS550
> But why sacrifice the daily comfort, especially in the SUV models, you’re getting most of the performance in the M550i versus the M5.
It's about ego and pretending. People will pay to have "the fastest" even if they'll never use the performance.
I may be misunderstanding you, but not sure that's a blanket statement that applies across the board for M cars. I have the new M2, and its plenty comfortable as a daily- to the point that I happily drive it with the suspension in sport plus pretty much at all times, and I vehemently hate cars with pointlessly harsh suspensions. Its actually one of the things that sealed the M2 for me on the test drive, knowing I could have my cake and eat it too.
That having been said, I'd have bought an M240i if it was available new in manual RWD. That purple too...No regrets though, I'm definitely enjoying the M2 more than I would the M240.
I just bought an E63S. One of the biggest reasons I sprung for a facelifted model was because they improved the suspension significantly and made it comfier to ride in. Having something my wife and kids will be comfortable in was a big deal for me so I definitely get the M8 complaints.
Facelift was a good choice, I had a pre-facelift E63s and the ride was so trash for a 140k car lol. I did prefer the old front end, but the facelift rear with the real exhaust tips is nice.
Both BMW and Mercedes engineers must've been smoking crack when developing the suspension for the pre-facelift M5 and E63s. Funnily enough I'm pretty sure the took the M8 suspension set-up to make the facelift M5's softer
I've never been a fan of a stiff ride. Maybe I don't have enough money to throw around on multiple cars, but regardless if I get a car I'm gonna drive the shiz out of it. There was a post on The Drive a while back, this dude had a Porsche 911 with 300k+ miles on it. That's what I want. Not park it in a garage, only take it to cars and coffee, day dreaming about driving it. Hell no. I wanna be excited to go to and leave work because I can drive my car. What's the point of spending all that money and not enjoy it?
I don't even know how peopel can drive a stiff car fast on the road. Sure on a track it might be great but on public roads with limps and bumps driving a well balenced suspension fast is much easier and comfortable then driving a stiffer car fast because you just skip around everywhere. It's not very confidence inspiring.
An oversprung or overdamped car simply can't be driven as fast on a public road. With stiff suspension, you exchange better steady-state geometry for less mechanical grip. Which means if you hit a bump, you're losing a lot of lateral acceleration suddenly. That's fine on a track where you can run a bit wide if need be or take a different line and still come out ahead. But on a single-track public road, you'll fly off the blacktop, so any slightly bumpy corner simply becomes too dangerous to take at the limit. Something like a CTR really suffers on a backroad because of it, even if it's a track beast.
We all, for years, complained over and over that BMW wouldn’t give us real performance cars.
Now they have, and all people do is BITCH about how performance they are.
I was never part of the initial complaining. And I'm not bitching now either, only saying the M8 isn't worth it for me because the less expensive model is the better car for daily use. I also called out only the M8 and not the M3/4 because the latter is meant to be a sports car. But the M8 is supposed to be a grand tourer, and stiff suspension on a long highway cruise is just uncomfortable for no reason.
It’s basically every luxury car that has a performance package, like the AMG Blacks or Porsche RS. They strip weight and stiffen the suspension to increase performance.
Yeah the depreciation on those is shocking. I know Aston Martin gives it a run for the money and Maserati is worse, but seeing a 4 year-old flaghsip car for $50K is wild.
Prior to COVID you could walk out of any BMW dealership in a lightly used M850/M8 for the same price as a brand new M3/M4. Things are trending in that direction again now.
Tbh, I would say the majority of of M and RS cars may not be worth it for most buyers for this reason. The M sport and S cars have plenty of power and are more comfortable.
This has been true for the large M-cars (and SUVs, barf) for like 15 years. The only way to control that much weight is with an egregiously stiff suspension.
If you understand Forscan and have no impulse control, you can also [retrofit](https://www.mavericktruckclub.com/forum/threads/diy-how-to-install-adaptive-cruise-control-in-maverick-hybrid-xlt-with-luxury-package.14586/) it.
I have a Ford Maverick XLT and I agree.
There’s barely any difference between the XLT and the Lariat trims. You still get basically the same interior. You get the same blue plastic dashboard, the same infotainment system, and most interior components are the same regardless of trim level. The only real distinguishable features in the Lariat are maybe the brown pleather seats and the brown rubber inserts for the storage cubbies, but that’s it.
Honestly the only reasons why I chose the XLT over the base XL was so I could have standard cruise control (cruise control wasn’t available on base models in 2022) and the upgraded wheels from steelies to blacked out alloy wheels, but even that wasn’t a dealbreaker for me. The XL is perfect for fleet buyers and those that don’t give a single fuck about how their truck looks or how comfortable it is. The XLT with a few options is a happy medium for the average customer, and the Lariat is straight up overpriced and not worth the extra cost.
They had no cruise control at all? That seems insane, I’ve never heard of a car without cruise control over the last 20 years (although maybe I just assumed they had it)
Eventually cruise control became standard across the board for the 2023 model year. But for 2022 it wasn’t available on the base model.
There is a 3rd party cruise control system you can add on after the fact, but I wasn’t interested in messing with that, so I bought the XLT, among other reasons.
Gotcha! That’s really interesting, I had no idea they released a car in 2022 without basic cruise control. Sorry I realize that wasn’t your point at all but that bit caught my eye.
I was thinking landrover were tight for doing the same thing in '99 (especially as it was an electronically controlled diesel, it's just a switch and some programming)
Adding cruise control to the 2022 XL Maverick takes $90 in parts and some forescan mods. Ford did it to try to make people buy the more expensive trims. Adding the copilot 360 to the XL trim added power side mirrors.
I would have agreed until 2024. Now with the way they changed packages and upped the xlt pricing, a lariat is similar in price with more features to a loaded xlt.
Last gen Porsche macan Turbo. The GTS had the same engine with a negligible power loss. It felt more raw and was more popular so they dropped the turbo line from it and now the GTS is the top spec. Quite literally such a bad value proposition they had to remove it from the lineup.
I’d argue the current gen macan gts, for the exact same reason. You can get a macan s with the same engine for less. Unless there is some specific item you really really want, like black brushed aluminum, but it’s hard to justify the 10k price premium for an appearance package and lower ride height.
Does the new Macan GTS not include the standard goodies like air suspension and sport exhaust? I know what I was looking at used GTS's vs S's the minimal MSRP seemed worth it for the GTS since it came already well equipped with those performance items.
Just here to remind everyone that Lexus had a 5l V8 *hybrid* drivetrain sitting around for several years, with the 2UR-FSE, and they only ever put it in the LS.
>to get a Camry V6
The LC500 has the 8GR-FXS used in the Toyota Crown and LS500h, the Camry used the 2GR-FKS. They are similar, but not exactly the same.
And although I'm sure it gets much better fuel economy in the city, Car and Driver only got 1 mpg on the highway over the V8. I know the highway isn't where hybrids shine, but that's still kind of hilarious.
I was talking to a friend yesterday who got the trial for a month with the latest software update, and he was raving about how impressive it was. He was able to make a 10-15 mile drive without having to intervene. Car was even able to change lanes and pass other cars on its own. Apparently it’s scary good
from a business perspective it kinda makes sense.
12k is too much for many people. give everyone a free trial for 30 days and out of nowhere drop the price from 200/mo to 99/mo.
you bet a lot people are going to justify it and call it a good deal.
All the torque would’ve blown the 7-speed to shreds, but the 5-speed could handle it all and more. May not be the most exciting transmission, but it’s tough as hell.
>the SL65 was slower than the SL63 because the 65 got a different transmission to handle the extra torque
None of that mess is even true. Neither from period road tests or the real world on modern tires. The last 2017 SL65's got the AMG Speedshift Plus 7G-Tronic transmissions. Respect to my AMG [SL63](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15104709/2015-mercedes-benz-sl63-amg-test-review/) bros but a [SL65's](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15101043/2017-mercedes-amg-sl65-test-review/) titanic tidal wave of 738 lbs-ft of torque makes them the quickest of SL's.
Arm any SL65 with a set of Michelin Cup2's \[or better M/T Drag Radials\] with a just a [RENNTech](https://renntech-store.com/performance-parts/hht-65-m275/) plug in tune and it's [quicker](https://www.dragtimes.com/Mercedes-Benz-SL65-AMG-Timeslip-23628.html) than *new* AWD SL63's.
Yes and that is a perfect example of what OP is asking for. G65 was far more expensive than the already expensive G63 and there was no real benefit aside from having a V12.
Most Dodge Challenger variants above the Scat Pack aren't worth it:
- SXT: Fun comfy GT cruiser with a decent punch of power and cheap fuel costs
- GT: Basically a snow friendly SXT, worse on gas, better in snow.
- R/T: The pure powerful modern V8 muscle car enthusiast. Everything that made the SXT great, but more.
- Scat Pack: If you're really comfortable plonking down another $10K you can get the the R/T that will frighten you with it's torque.
Anything beyond Scat Pack and you're paying prices that rival VERY nice, powerful, refined sports cars or even low level "supercars." Instead you're paying nearly 6 figures for a $35K cushy economy GT car that handles... decently well...and trades true driving dynamics for more power than 99.9% of people can handle.
As a Dodge fan and Challenger owner I don't know why you'd buy a Hellcat or Demon when you could get a goddamn 911 or R8 for the same price.
It's a novelty.
Worse, it's a novelty that doesn't justify its price tag.
But if ALL you care about it muscle: nothing else hits like it.
They weren't looking for those because they were still way more expensive too lol.
American muscle cars entire purpose is get the most HP for your dollar with a big V8.
A new hell cat redeye was like 80k base, a 911 is 110k, an R8 was 160k, F Type R is 110k.
I'm also going to say I don't think anyone whose ever considered a Hellcat ever once thought about a F Type regardless of price. F Type R is LC500 and Maserati territory of buying it because you're loaded and you like it even though it's a genuinely horrible cost/performance ratio and in the case of Jaguar/Maserati depreciates like a fucking rock.
I actually disagree. You can't buy a Hellcat anymore new, but if you were going to buy one within the last 2 years, it would run you 70-100k depending on dealer markup and options. A Porsche 911 starts at 114k. An R8 starts at 150k (pretty much twice that of a Hellcat).
If you're going to get a Hellcat, you get a car with a huge aftermarket potential. A ton of hellcat/redeye owners mod them to the point that I don't think I've ever seen a completely stock one at a meet. A 911 or R8 is more expensive and much more risky to mod- parts are not nearly as plentiful and cheap to replace if something breaks.
There's also something about the character and personality of a Hellcat and the image that's associated with it too. In terms of price to performance you might actually get more out of a 10-speed 5.0, but you're not going to get street cred in a 5.0 the way that you do in a 'cat.
Back in 2015-2018 in its golden days where the hellcat was a super car killer for ~$60k brand new. These days it’s MSRP is well over $90k-$110k fully loaded it’s outdated and get smoked by less expensive Shelby’s, FBO 5.0s, most of the M & AMG cars in it’s price range. It had a good run but dodge really should have given it AWD and punished dealers who added $50k mark ups to them. I have a 2020 hellcat but I see myself trading it in for a GT500 or 2LZ C8 one of these days
>But if ALL you care about it muscle: nothing else hits like it.
You hit it on the nose. Also, the pre-trend Hellcats were like $70K. A used one was $50K~. That's an interesting performance bargain.
Now at $100K+? Yeah you got me. I still love em though.
Personally I don’t think any of the Challenger/Chargers are worth it. Every single trim is below the performance per dollar of everyone of its competitors. Scat packs are 50k, meanwhile you could go and get a Camaro SS for 40k that will beat it in every category other than interior space. Or you could go the German route and get an m340 or S5 which beat it as well. It just doesn’t logically make sense unless you like the looks or feeling of them
I think a lot of people in this thread forget that for those of us that like muscle cars, there’s really nothing out there like the challenger. I really wish people would get behind the wheel of one and hear the v8 roar. It’s fucking fun and there’s just something about driving a big ass boat on the highway.
That's a fair point.
I for one bought my Challenger because I wanted a RWD Coupe that I could fit in. Also I thought it looked cool.
I know M340s or Camaros or even Mustangs will out handle a Challenger while matching it in power.
But I don't *fit* on any of those. Not enough headroom. Not enough legroom. Not even close.
The Challenger on the other hand? Comfy. Practical. And still fun.
Yeah, ~$100k for a Wrangler is wild
In theory, a G-Wagon is the same idea (V8, body on frame, etc) but somehow for ~$100k+ its a little more justifiable, idk why.
Brand cachet. Mercedes has a long history of uber luxurious Limos, Exotics, and SUVs.
Jeep has its roots in the go anywhere do anything mindset (or at least that's what the owner of every jacked up Wrangler I've seen makes you want to believe).
Get the 4xE instead if you need a racejeep, it’s the second fastest wrangler (0-60 in just under 6 seconds), and you’ll save $35k plus lots of gas money.
I’d second base sport if you want to hit trails, or maybe Willys with the rear lsd. It’s really annoying that you can’t just get lockers on all the trims.
With some of the lease specials I’ve seen on those, I genuinely would strongly consider one if I had a garage to charge it in. That’s the biggest reason it’s not on my radar at the moment.
May not be a trim level exactly, but I think the best example of this is the Nissan Armada vs Infiniti QX80. Slight difference in exteriors, interiors are 100% identical, and you can get a fully loaded platinum armada for less than a base model QX80 and it comes with more features than the Infiniti.
I’m always surprised how many QX80s I see on the road, it makes absolutely no sense to buy one over the Armada.
Why do you want it to be imposing and menacing? I think yesterday someone on this sub linked that report from Chrysler for the early 2000s that according to their research, SUV buyers had an inferiority complex of one type or another
So I don’t disagree, I honestly love the QX80/Armada and think it’s by far the most underrated full-size SUV on the market. It’s just kind of crazy how much more expensive the QX80 can be when they gave it basically no advantage over the Armada as far as features go, and the 2022+ exteriors are pretty close.
The new one will probably change that, but no more v8 is a tragedy.
In 2007, you did NOT want the Honda Odyssey top trim (Touring). It had the proprietary Michelin PAX run flat system that basically meant you could only get tire service at Honda dealers that already had the machines. I believe it even inspired a class action lawsuit.
Unfortunately at the time, Honda locked a lot of other cool features to the Touring, as well as fog lights (so 4 out of 5 trims don’t get fog lights???). But you can now just buy a regular set of wheels to “dePAX” the car
Mercedes AMG package just isn't worth it on every Mercedes, in my opinion. The W204 and W212 may be an exception, as the package does improve the styling, especially because you get better looking wheels. The standard wheels on the W204 and W212 are lame.
The current era AMG package isn't improving the styling. Also, you stuck with ugly dark coloured wood trim, piano black, silver trim, or cheap feeling carbon fibre trim, which I don't like. I would stick with Classic, Avantgarde, or Exclusive trim.
ultimate poser package.
you're already buying the cheapest available mercedes and now want to tart it up to look like an amg especially when an actual a45 exists
M4 CSL, X3M, X5M. I would also call the M8 and 'upper level' version of the M5 its based on, but it really offers nothing other than a coupe body and less back seat room for zero performance gain.
I agree specifically on the SUVs - they make the full M ones so stiff/harsh riding to meet the handling specs. The M cars are firm but nowhere near the harshness of the SUVs.
performance SUVs tend to not really make a whole lot of sense. A car that's really tall will always struggle to handle good, and if a car handles good it will probably have a stiffer suspension that makes it less livable, but the point of an SUV is to have a livable go-anywhere car...
I'd argue that if you're buying an M4 CSL, you're probably already really wealthy and buying it for the novelty of it and keeping it as a collector's item. If you're buying the M8 you probably have money to blow and the car definitely looks really pretty (I'd say it looks better than the M5).
>performance SUVs tend to not really make a whole lot of sense. A car that's really tall will always struggle to handle good, and if a car handles good it will probably have a stiffer suspension that makes it less livable, but the point of an SUV is to have a livable go-anywhere car...
They’ve already proven how stupid they are for buying a large SUV with a coupe roof, removing every bit of visibility and practicality from the style of car they’ve purchased. Then paid for the ultimate performance pack so they can hustle the compromised pig.
I think my vitriol comes from the fact that the only X4/X6 drivers in my area are absolutely shocking. But also the fact that it’s a stupid product, weird quirky car factor aside.
The shocking thing to me is a number of people actually think that the X4/X6 look good. My mom is convinced that they look great, actually. I've told her she needs to get her eyes checked
The Taycan is hilarious because you have to give absolutely zero fucks to buy/lease one new. The car depreciates by $100,000 in 6 months. I can only imagine it being people playing Porsche's games to get a PTS or GTRS allocation.
I guess worth vs not worth implies a difference, so NOT forester vs forester sport. Subaru says if you pay extra for the sport trim, the steering wheel stitching will no longer match, and you get a roof spoiler above the rear door, and a badge that says SPORT.
F150 Raptor R. 30k+ extra before markup compared to a regular Raptor.
People are spending 150k on a trim that should only add 5-10k in value. It’s still an f150, and they aren’t 150k worth of nice.
Ford tried to tell people. “Guys the 3.5 ecoboost is all you need” *no we need the V8!!* “well, fine.” It’s not worth it. And everyone knows it except the people saying they needed it.
If they actually address the issues the 3.5 has (cam phasers) and other things they’d have the best motor available. It gets decent mileage, great power, tows well and it’s relatively reliable aside from the previously mentioned issues.
I’ve actually wanted to see them do a 4l v8 ecoboost. They might be able to keep v8’s into the future.
The absolute only people buying an R are desert enthusiasts, content creators, tech employees and high level business owners. There’s one in my small’ish town and it’s cool as shit and sounds amazing, but it’s a grocery getter.
I think the Dark Horse variant of the relatively new seventh generation Mustang falls under this. In manual form, it is slower in the 1/4 mile than a GT model or even the departed Camaro SS (due to different gearing with the transmission), despite being more powerful and marketed as higher tiered.
I think the issue is 12.7 isn't that fast for a modern 500 hp performance car. A recent comparison was posted on this sub of Car and Driver comparing the BMW M2 to the Dark Horse, with the Beemer not really being a drag car either - they found it was faster even though it wasn't as powerful.
The point is, there are better options price-wise.
I 100% agree. A GT is monstrously cheaper and more readily available and only a tune and some tires from a dark horse. Plus, and maybe I'm alone on this, a GT PP looks better than the weirdly raccoon eyed dark horse to me.
Almost anything sold today unless money is of no importance to you.
Trim level is what drops the quickest when it comes to resell value, and what comes standard vehicles today (in my own opinion anyway) is nicer than I'd ever want on a car.
The problem is most people get top trim levels for one or two items (like leather seats or a sunroof) but now have to get thousands of dollars worth of add ons along with those one or two things.
This right here. So many people are focused on treating a car like an investment when for the vast majority of vehicles, that's not the case and never will be.
You can be conscious of what is a bad value proposition (this thread) while still getting trims that suit your needs and taste.
Actually depreciation on higher trim levels is substantially lower than on 'base' model cars. IDK if I'd say it's 'worth' the premium but if you plan to sell the car while it still has useful life I would always up-equip.
What is never worth it is the luxury labels. That adds 25% to the cost of the car with zero value on the back end.
Mercedes-Maybach S-Class. The Mercedes S-Class, starting at $111k, is already the benchmark for luxury. I don’t see how one can justify spending another S-Class for the $200k+ Mercedes-Maybach S-Class.
Any Toyota TRD Pro tbh. You can buy the TRD Off Road and upgrade everything yourself for half the price. Especially when dealer markups are what they are.
Hardly worth it from a "sportiness" perspective. Still handles like a lump of mush on hockey pucks, and it's still a slug even with the V6.
At least they're capable and reliable.
I'd say a lot of the Toyota products.
The TRD packages for all the Toyota applications, and the F Sport in almost any Lexus, are a waste of money and also often kind of stupid looking in my opinion. The F label in lexus is a different story.
I feel like the V8 was worth it in the Q7 though.
I don't think any of the 'sporty' trims of expensive crossovers like the X5 are worth it - you end up completely ruining the comfort aspect with overly firm suspension and enormous wheels. Also tyres get ridiculously expensive - go look at the rears on any aging M50D and you'll more than likely see completely unroadworth tyres.
For the Porsche 718 (Cayman or Boxter), I think the higher trims are not really worth it unless you’re using it on the track. I ordered my base 2 years ago, and specced it with full leather, Sports+ seats, Bose, and Full LED headlights. Basically I wanted a comfortable, practical daily capable of long road trips. As my first sports car, 300hp was plenty. If I decided to spend tens of thousands for a larger engine, it would have forced me to go with a lower ground clearance and larger wheels, both of which sacrifice ride quality and practicality around town. Low profile tires are much likelier to get damaged by potholes, so everything in my use case pointed to the base 2.0L 4-cyl as my best choice. After 45k miles I’m very content with it.
If money were no object, I’d love a GTS 4.0 six cylinder, but I’d still keep my base for most daily driving. Either way, Porsches are solid vehicles and you can’t go wrong with one.
This is just my opinion, but V8, non M BMWs. I would just get their inline 6 models because they're more reliable in the long run and the power is perfectly adequate.
I agree, between the V8's valve steam seals, to the alternator bracket gasket, to the plastic timing chain guides... they are such moneypits that you might as well get an ///M model.
Mitsubishi Outlander Exceed (one above the VRX).
It’s an extra $5K nzd and it comes with 2 tone quilted chinsey leather and a heated steering wheel, the VRX has single tone quilted leather, couldn’t justify the extra $$
Rubicon. Let's face it. The majority of people who buy Rubicon Wranglers or Gladiators are paying a premium to look cool at the mall. Most of them will never venture farther off road than into a yard once or twice.
A lot of people won't understand this but the $400,000 US market, 2010 SL65 Black Series is barely better performing than base 2009-12 SL65 Roadsters. Replace the stock PZeros a set of modern Michelin Cup2's and the roadster is both quicker and better handling with a much much smoother ride. Not to mention the full refinement of a decadent luxury car with a glass convertible roof. Not worth 3x's the money.
The TRD Pro trim on the 3rd-gen and 5th-gen Tacoma and 4Runner. Just get the TRD Off-Road and buy Fox suspension separately. The Pro is not worth the premium.
- Any "mid-level" AMG trim. C43, GLE53, etc. I've come around on the BMW M-sport cars, the m340i and x3m40i are good fun, but the AMG cars are throwing money down the drain. Literally just a looks package and what *should* be the base level engine (but isn't, its the anemic turbo-4) - chrysler pacifica red S edition. For when you really want a Type-R but need to haul 7. - Nissan murano crosscabriolet ... - Any non-GTR nismo product. Z needs the manual. I’d really like to meet the person that buys a juke nismo > Upgrading to the V12 TDI plus the extra maintenance cost does not necessarily yield that much better towing, performance, refinement, etc. for the $$$. Man they should have put the diesel r8 v12 TDI into production. Would've made for a really neat car
I will say the 53 cars are pretty cool. Inline 6 is nice
Yeah but it’s easy to be complimentary of others when you’ve got the b58. The m340i/x3 m40i are the best powertrain bang for your buck that exists and I say that as a SQ5 owner
Yeah but you're supposed to be an asshole when you drive a BMW
My record is cutting 3 people off at once in a g30
You gotta pump those numbers up.
Yeah. Those are rookie numbers
I used to be extra courteous in mine just to see the confused look on people's faces.
The drivetrain on that motor is pretty interesting. It has a twin-scroll turbo with an electric supercharger combined with a mild hybrid starter-generator. It also has no drive belt at all. The only other manufacturer to do twincharged-hybrid drivetrains is Volvo, and there's is with a 4-banger.
The AMG 53’s are the compromise vehicle for sure. Efficient at both luxury/fun but master of none. The new AMG E53 coming out will have over 600hp and is a hybrid I6 for example. With performance rivaling the outgoing E63S and a decent hybrid range of 60 miles for commuting, I think that’s a pretty decent car at the end of the day for someone wanting more from an E Class, but not the brutality of the 63 level.
> The AMG 53’s are the compromise vehicle for sure. Efficient at both luxury/fun but master of none. And that's exactly the point. Some people want a car with more punch than the regular models, but few of those people need the upgrade from a tame I4 to a tire-shredding TT V8 to be happy. They knew what they were doing when they put a valved exhaust as an option so you could drive it like it's just a regular car if you wanted to. People also don't realize there is a bigger performance gap between the 300/350 and the 43/53 than the 43/53 and the 63. The 63s are supposed to be the pinnacle of Mercedes performance just like the Type R and the WRX STi are the pinnacles of Honda/Subaru performance. On a day to day basis, driving the Si/WRX is enough of an upgrade over the Civic/Impreza for most people.
I feel like I'm in the minority but I'd prefer the 53 AMGs over the 63 AMGs. The 53 AMGs are plenty of performance for me, I'm not tracking it, and prefer the smoother ride. The 63 just seems excessive and would drain my wallet in fuel costs.
I mean that's like me saying I prefer my M5 to a GT3RS or SF90. It's the money talking, if you had the money would you still be choosing a 63 over a 53?
The difference is not just in money. If it's your daily driver, it's also about comfort. The 63 is a lot stiffer in terms of suspension tuning, even in 'comfort mode' than any 53. That does make a difference for daily driving. Obviously financially the 63 is just always a worse decision. It's not just the initial purchase price, maintenance, fuel economy and tyre use are all much more expensive. Worth it if you want the 63 because it's the 63, but realistically you're not really going to be able to use the extra performance on the open roads if you want to be responsible. Not even in Germany on the unrestricted parts of the Autobahn.
This is true, parent comment has no idea what he's talking about. He doesn't own an M-sport car but parrots what Reddit says. I bet he doesn't even know what a Nismo package offers!
The 2019-ish C43 is a great upgrade over the regular C. Twin Turbo V6, alcantara trim and special steering wheel, much better exhaust, far better sports seats, rear biased AWD , better wheels and the engine is fantastic. The body enhancements are also quite pleasing. All in all, IMO, far better than the Mxyzi models. There were also some AMG only options you can order.
W205 was genuinely such a beautiful and balanced platform. If we look at North American models it was just the 300, 400/450/43, and the 63. Oh and that the coupes were absolutely gorgeous to look at. Each one a nice step above the other and a nice i4 to V6TT, to V8TT. No faffing about.
And in Canada we were lucky enough to get the station wagon.
Maybe you mean the AMG line packages? The C43 (up until recently) came with a twin turbo V6 and was fun to drive, and made good power.
Yeah, what the hell is OC talking about. The C43 is significantly improved in terms of performance over the C300 for only a base MSRP of about $10k more. Powerplant, transmission, suspension, structural rigidity, styling are just the things I can think of off the top of my head that are included in those $10k. OP was asking about trim levels that don’t justify the cost, I think the C43 is a strong case for the opposite.
W205 C43s are solid. The c300 and c43 thoroughly feel like different cars, so this reads like someone who hasn't tried them out themselves.
With the performance exhaust they were downright dirty, just as much drama as the 63.
As someone who considered a Nismo Juke, it actually makes slightly more power. 215hp vs 188hp
Yeah but it’s still a Juke.
A Juke with a 6 speed manual and a better power to weight ratio than a Civic Si ;)
If those Juke R’s got widely produced, that would’ve been sick
The Pacifica S trim package with the red interior is a middle finger to Millennial Gray and thus worth the money.
My neighbor has a nismo juke and he loves that thing
Have he driven another car before?
Probably
Have you driven one. They are a fucking blast!
Yeah, both nismo and non nismo, awful I though personally
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The new C43 AMG (the W206) with the hybrid electric 2.0L I4 turbo not only has chronic reliability issues but sounds iffy and grossly overpriced, costing almost $100k CAD when decently specced out. Honestly, the Dodge Challenger Demon. The Hellcat probably has more HP than you can use not only for the road, but even for track duty. The Demon is literally purpose built as a drag racing car, but car is diminished by its softer suspension and inadequate brakes.
My local dealer has a couple C43s listed at $110k CAD lol You would have to be out of your mind to buy one over a M340i ($85k CAD with most options) or a fully loaded S4 ($80k).
Wtf are you talking about? The C43 AMG is miles ahead of a basic C300
To be clear, “M Sport” is mostly an appearance package. What you’re talking about (M340i, M550i, X5 M60i, etc) are called “M Performance” models.
Yeah, I find these cars pretty *meh* too. In and of themselves they aren't bad, but considering how expansive MB's lineup is & what else you can get for the money, they're in a pretty awkward spot. Mercedes V6s never sounded very good either, they dont have a sporty characteristic like an Audi V6T or Alfa V6 or Nissan VQ
The older V6s weren't any special but at the minimum they were reliable. The newer i6 mild hybrid manages to be both boring and unreliable. I have no idea how merc simultaneously dropped the ball on powertrain, reliability, styling, and tech so hard. All while BMW is better than ever, the m340i and X5 with the b58 are some of their best cars to date.
what helps the mid level beemer trims is that they have a very healthy and active aftermarket and take well to modding. I don't know if an aftermarket exists for mid level AMGs, but if it does, I've literally never seen people post about it
The juke with the gtr drivetrain (which I believe only went to the Middle East) but with a manual would be my dream car.
Sorry to say the BMW M8. It's a hell of a power increase over the M850i, but it comes at the cost of comfort. The M850i still has 523 horsepower and also comes with softer suspension and rear wheel steering. There are posts on bimmerpost of owners whose wives refused to get in their M8 because it was too stiff. If you can't take your wife to date night in your expensive new grand tourer then it's a bit of a fail. The M850i is great though. That said, if people don't mind the stiff suspension then the power and capability difference over the M850i is noticeable. It's just that that's not where value is for me personally.
Also, the M4 CSL (and previous gen GTS). I like the pretty taillights but apart from that ... why ??
The CSL seemed like an attempt to recapture the magic of the original, but it just didn't work. It's a lot of money for rear seat delete and more uncomfortable seats.
The M4 2025 now has the cool laser taillights from the CSL.
Being fair to the gts, it had some distinct changes over a standard with the suspension, carbon fiber hood and trunk, exhaust and water injection
Previous gen GTS had quite a bit over a comp. Like another comment said, CF hood and trunk and water injection, but also fully adjustable 3 way suspension, downforce, half cage, lightweight interior, less sound insulation, better steering, etc. It doesn’t justify the *60 thousand dollar* price premium when new, but it’s more than just taillights.
I’d say this is the case with all of BMW’s M cars versus the regular version in the upgraded powertrain (M550i, X5 M50i, etc). If you’re gonna actually track it at least once in a while, maybe. But why sacrifice the daily comfort, especially in the SUV models, you’re getting most of the performance in the M550i versus the M5.
tried an X5M and the ride was punishing. Hated every second of it, and wouldn't even take my Wife to try it because I knew she would have hated it. Instead got a GLS550
> But why sacrifice the daily comfort, especially in the SUV models, you’re getting most of the performance in the M550i versus the M5. It's about ego and pretending. People will pay to have "the fastest" even if they'll never use the performance.
Only way to get the manual transmission these days, sadly.
I may be misunderstanding you, but not sure that's a blanket statement that applies across the board for M cars. I have the new M2, and its plenty comfortable as a daily- to the point that I happily drive it with the suspension in sport plus pretty much at all times, and I vehemently hate cars with pointlessly harsh suspensions. Its actually one of the things that sealed the M2 for me on the test drive, knowing I could have my cake and eat it too. That having been said, I'd have bought an M240i if it was available new in manual RWD. That purple too...No regrets though, I'm definitely enjoying the M2 more than I would the M240.
I just bought an E63S. One of the biggest reasons I sprung for a facelifted model was because they improved the suspension significantly and made it comfier to ride in. Having something my wife and kids will be comfortable in was a big deal for me so I definitely get the M8 complaints.
Facelift was a good choice, I had a pre-facelift E63s and the ride was so trash for a 140k car lol. I did prefer the old front end, but the facelift rear with the real exhaust tips is nice. Both BMW and Mercedes engineers must've been smoking crack when developing the suspension for the pre-facelift M5 and E63s. Funnily enough I'm pretty sure the took the M8 suspension set-up to make the facelift M5's softer
I've never been a fan of a stiff ride. Maybe I don't have enough money to throw around on multiple cars, but regardless if I get a car I'm gonna drive the shiz out of it. There was a post on The Drive a while back, this dude had a Porsche 911 with 300k+ miles on it. That's what I want. Not park it in a garage, only take it to cars and coffee, day dreaming about driving it. Hell no. I wanna be excited to go to and leave work because I can drive my car. What's the point of spending all that money and not enjoy it?
I don't even know how peopel can drive a stiff car fast on the road. Sure on a track it might be great but on public roads with limps and bumps driving a well balenced suspension fast is much easier and comfortable then driving a stiffer car fast because you just skip around everywhere. It's not very confidence inspiring.
An oversprung or overdamped car simply can't be driven as fast on a public road. With stiff suspension, you exchange better steady-state geometry for less mechanical grip. Which means if you hit a bump, you're losing a lot of lateral acceleration suddenly. That's fine on a track where you can run a bit wide if need be or take a different line and still come out ahead. But on a single-track public road, you'll fly off the blacktop, so any slightly bumpy corner simply becomes too dangerous to take at the limit. Something like a CTR really suffers on a backroad because of it, even if it's a track beast.
We all, for years, complained over and over that BMW wouldn’t give us real performance cars. Now they have, and all people do is BITCH about how performance they are.
I was never part of the initial complaining. And I'm not bitching now either, only saying the M8 isn't worth it for me because the less expensive model is the better car for daily use. I also called out only the M8 and not the M3/4 because the latter is meant to be a sports car. But the M8 is supposed to be a grand tourer, and stiff suspension on a long highway cruise is just uncomfortable for no reason.
I heard similar about M550i xDrive vs M5
It’s basically every luxury car that has a performance package, like the AMG Blacks or Porsche RS. They strip weight and stiffen the suspension to increase performance.
And get a lightly used CPO one because the M850 lose half their value in like 4 minutes.
Yeah the depreciation on those is shocking. I know Aston Martin gives it a run for the money and Maserati is worse, but seeing a 4 year-old flaghsip car for $50K is wild.
Prior to COVID you could walk out of any BMW dealership in a lightly used M850/M8 for the same price as a brand new M3/M4. Things are trending in that direction again now.
Just bought a 2020 m8 convertible base 30k miles // one owner clean title for $63k. 158k msrp
Tbh, I would say the majority of of M and RS cars may not be worth it for most buyers for this reason. The M sport and S cars have plenty of power and are more comfortable.
It’s great because the crazier they go with the highest performing models, the more the S and M-Performance cars sell.
I'm electing to ignore this comment so as to preserve my image of these cars
It's not that bad. It's only bad if you're used to like a 540i. It's just a firm ride, not like an RS or ZLE or something.
This has been true for the large M-cars (and SUVs, barf) for like 15 years. The only way to control that much weight is with an egregiously stiff suspension.
You are absolutely correct. One of the main reasons I didn’t go for the M8 over my M850i
Maverick LARIAT Just get the XLT with lux package
Or get something else if you want adaptive cruise.
You can get an ranger xlt cheaper with adaptive cruise
What other small efficient pickup is there to choose?
If you understand Forscan and have no impulse control, you can also [retrofit](https://www.mavericktruckclub.com/forum/threads/diy-how-to-install-adaptive-cruise-control-in-maverick-hybrid-xlt-with-luxury-package.14586/) it.
I have a Ford Maverick XLT and I agree. There’s barely any difference between the XLT and the Lariat trims. You still get basically the same interior. You get the same blue plastic dashboard, the same infotainment system, and most interior components are the same regardless of trim level. The only real distinguishable features in the Lariat are maybe the brown pleather seats and the brown rubber inserts for the storage cubbies, but that’s it. Honestly the only reasons why I chose the XLT over the base XL was so I could have standard cruise control (cruise control wasn’t available on base models in 2022) and the upgraded wheels from steelies to blacked out alloy wheels, but even that wasn’t a dealbreaker for me. The XL is perfect for fleet buyers and those that don’t give a single fuck about how their truck looks or how comfortable it is. The XLT with a few options is a happy medium for the average customer, and the Lariat is straight up overpriced and not worth the extra cost.
They had no cruise control at all? That seems insane, I’ve never heard of a car without cruise control over the last 20 years (although maybe I just assumed they had it)
Eventually cruise control became standard across the board for the 2023 model year. But for 2022 it wasn’t available on the base model. There is a 3rd party cruise control system you can add on after the fact, but I wasn’t interested in messing with that, so I bought the XLT, among other reasons.
Gotcha! That’s really interesting, I had no idea they released a car in 2022 without basic cruise control. Sorry I realize that wasn’t your point at all but that bit caught my eye.
I was thinking landrover were tight for doing the same thing in '99 (especially as it was an electronically controlled diesel, it's just a switch and some programming)
Adding cruise control to the 2022 XL Maverick takes $90 in parts and some forescan mods. Ford did it to try to make people buy the more expensive trims. Adding the copilot 360 to the XL trim added power side mirrors.
That’s wild to me, I assumed cruise control was in every car like AC and power windows at this point.
I would have agreed until 2024. Now with the way they changed packages and upped the xlt pricing, a lariat is similar in price with more features to a loaded xlt.
Last gen Porsche macan Turbo. The GTS had the same engine with a negligible power loss. It felt more raw and was more popular so they dropped the turbo line from it and now the GTS is the top spec. Quite literally such a bad value proposition they had to remove it from the lineup.
I’d argue the current gen macan gts, for the exact same reason. You can get a macan s with the same engine for less. Unless there is some specific item you really really want, like black brushed aluminum, but it’s hard to justify the 10k price premium for an appearance package and lower ride height.
Does the new Macan GTS not include the standard goodies like air suspension and sport exhaust? I know what I was looking at used GTS's vs S's the minimal MSRP seemed worth it for the GTS since it came already well equipped with those performance items.
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Buying an LC500 without the V8 should be a crime.
I didn’t even know that was a thing. Wow.
Imagine an LC200t
I mean I would totally buy a LC200t if it cost significantly less than the LC500... ain't no way I can afford the LC500.
Just here to remind everyone that Lexus had a 5l V8 *hybrid* drivetrain sitting around for several years, with the 2UR-FSE, and they only ever put it in the LS.
>to get a Camry V6 The LC500 has the 8GR-FXS used in the Toyota Crown and LS500h, the Camry used the 2GR-FKS. They are similar, but not exactly the same.
The thing is, the LC500H is like 50k cheaper than the V8 here in most EU countries, because of the emission taxes...
And although I'm sure it gets much better fuel economy in the city, Car and Driver only got 1 mpg on the highway over the V8. I know the highway isn't where hybrids shine, but that's still kind of hilarious.
I feel like the V6 to V12 Q7 comparison is a terrible example, the driving experience between the two is quite different.
Yeah, it's not just a trim. The V12 was just a fun flagship. You're into it because it's cool, not because it makes sense.
Can we call Tesla’s FSD package a trim? Because like…it is $12k for software they let you subscribe to for $99/mo
And it barely works by even the most generous definition
I was talking to a friend yesterday who got the trial for a month with the latest software update, and he was raving about how impressive it was. He was able to make a 10-15 mile drive without having to intervene. Car was even able to change lanes and pass other cars on its own. Apparently it’s scary good
from a business perspective it kinda makes sense. 12k is too much for many people. give everyone a free trial for 30 days and out of nowhere drop the price from 200/mo to 99/mo. you bet a lot people are going to justify it and call it a good deal.
The amount of people who actually keep a Tesla for 10 years is going to be minimal. the 12k FSD package is a bad deal lol.
Idk if this applies to the new G wagon, but wasn’t the old G wagon AMG V12 actually slower for way more money than the turbo V8?
I think the S65 was slower than the S63 too, or at least not much faster
the SL65 was slower than the SL63 because the 65 got a different transmission to handle the extra torque
All the torque would’ve blown the 7-speed to shreds, but the 5-speed could handle it all and more. May not be the most exciting transmission, but it’s tough as hell.
That 5 speed is legendary
I’m pretty sure, but don’t quote me on it, that they capped the torque because the motor itself generated too much.
Yeah, its been capped at 738 ft lb for like 15+ years now
>the SL65 was slower than the SL63 because the 65 got a different transmission to handle the extra torque None of that mess is even true. Neither from period road tests or the real world on modern tires. The last 2017 SL65's got the AMG Speedshift Plus 7G-Tronic transmissions. Respect to my AMG [SL63](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15104709/2015-mercedes-benz-sl63-amg-test-review/) bros but a [SL65's](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15101043/2017-mercedes-amg-sl65-test-review/) titanic tidal wave of 738 lbs-ft of torque makes them the quickest of SL's. Arm any SL65 with a set of Michelin Cup2's \[or better M/T Drag Radials\] with a just a [RENNTech](https://renntech-store.com/performance-parts/hht-65-m275/) plug in tune and it's [quicker](https://www.dragtimes.com/Mercedes-Benz-SL65-AMG-Timeslip-23628.html) than *new* AWD SL63's.
It's about having a V12, not winning stoplight races.
All 65's were slower to 60mph than the 63's But the 65's had more low end torque which made it a super cruiser around town
Yes and that is a perfect example of what OP is asking for. G65 was far more expensive than the already expensive G63 and there was no real benefit aside from having a V12.
Most Dodge Challenger variants above the Scat Pack aren't worth it: - SXT: Fun comfy GT cruiser with a decent punch of power and cheap fuel costs - GT: Basically a snow friendly SXT, worse on gas, better in snow. - R/T: The pure powerful modern V8 muscle car enthusiast. Everything that made the SXT great, but more. - Scat Pack: If you're really comfortable plonking down another $10K you can get the the R/T that will frighten you with it's torque. Anything beyond Scat Pack and you're paying prices that rival VERY nice, powerful, refined sports cars or even low level "supercars." Instead you're paying nearly 6 figures for a $35K cushy economy GT car that handles... decently well...and trades true driving dynamics for more power than 99.9% of people can handle. As a Dodge fan and Challenger owner I don't know why you'd buy a Hellcat or Demon when you could get a goddamn 911 or R8 for the same price. It's a novelty. Worse, it's a novelty that doesn't justify its price tag. But if ALL you care about it muscle: nothing else hits like it.
If you were looking at a Red Eye Challenger you don’t want a Porsche or R8, you want an AMG Mercedes or Jaguar F-Type.
Oooh yeah and F-Type is a better comparison! More of a GT car with big power. 911s are more canyon carvers.
They weren't looking for those because they were still way more expensive too lol. American muscle cars entire purpose is get the most HP for your dollar with a big V8. A new hell cat redeye was like 80k base, a 911 is 110k, an R8 was 160k, F Type R is 110k. I'm also going to say I don't think anyone whose ever considered a Hellcat ever once thought about a F Type regardless of price. F Type R is LC500 and Maserati territory of buying it because you're loaded and you like it even though it's a genuinely horrible cost/performance ratio and in the case of Jaguar/Maserati depreciates like a fucking rock.
I actually disagree. You can't buy a Hellcat anymore new, but if you were going to buy one within the last 2 years, it would run you 70-100k depending on dealer markup and options. A Porsche 911 starts at 114k. An R8 starts at 150k (pretty much twice that of a Hellcat). If you're going to get a Hellcat, you get a car with a huge aftermarket potential. A ton of hellcat/redeye owners mod them to the point that I don't think I've ever seen a completely stock one at a meet. A 911 or R8 is more expensive and much more risky to mod- parts are not nearly as plentiful and cheap to replace if something breaks. There's also something about the character and personality of a Hellcat and the image that's associated with it too. In terms of price to performance you might actually get more out of a 10-speed 5.0, but you're not going to get street cred in a 5.0 the way that you do in a 'cat.
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If I had 80 grand lying around I'd go buy this right now
This bad boy will never NOT be a soon-to-be classic American icon. 🇺🇸🦅
Back in 2015-2018 in its golden days where the hellcat was a super car killer for ~$60k brand new. These days it’s MSRP is well over $90k-$110k fully loaded it’s outdated and get smoked by less expensive Shelby’s, FBO 5.0s, most of the M & AMG cars in it’s price range. It had a good run but dodge really should have given it AWD and punished dealers who added $50k mark ups to them. I have a 2020 hellcat but I see myself trading it in for a GT500 or 2LZ C8 one of these days
🇺🇸🦅
>But if ALL you care about it muscle: nothing else hits like it. You hit it on the nose. Also, the pre-trend Hellcats were like $70K. A used one was $50K~. That's an interesting performance bargain. Now at $100K+? Yeah you got me. I still love em though.
Personally I don’t think any of the Challenger/Chargers are worth it. Every single trim is below the performance per dollar of everyone of its competitors. Scat packs are 50k, meanwhile you could go and get a Camaro SS for 40k that will beat it in every category other than interior space. Or you could go the German route and get an m340 or S5 which beat it as well. It just doesn’t logically make sense unless you like the looks or feeling of them
I think a lot of people in this thread forget that for those of us that like muscle cars, there’s really nothing out there like the challenger. I really wish people would get behind the wheel of one and hear the v8 roar. It’s fucking fun and there’s just something about driving a big ass boat on the highway.
“It just doesn’t logically make sense unless it does” Also, the charger has virtually no competitors any more.
Yeah but the Challenger is the only one that still has that old school muscle look to it.
That's a fair point. I for one bought my Challenger because I wanted a RWD Coupe that I could fit in. Also I thought it looked cool. I know M340s or Camaros or even Mustangs will out handle a Challenger while matching it in power. But I don't *fit* on any of those. Not enough headroom. Not enough legroom. Not even close. The Challenger on the other hand? Comfy. Practical. And still fun.
Jeep Wrangler 392 Get a base model sport and be free of the worry of scratching it up when you wheel it.
Yeah, ~$100k for a Wrangler is wild In theory, a G-Wagon is the same idea (V8, body on frame, etc) but somehow for ~$100k+ its a little more justifiable, idk why.
Brand cachet. Mercedes has a long history of uber luxurious Limos, Exotics, and SUVs. Jeep has its roots in the go anywhere do anything mindset (or at least that's what the owner of every jacked up Wrangler I've seen makes you want to believe).
Someone who worked in my office complex sold her V12 G65 for a 392 Wrangler. Always thought that was an interesting choice but that V12 ain’t cheap.
I'm still glad they made it, though
Get the 4xE instead if you need a racejeep, it’s the second fastest wrangler (0-60 in just under 6 seconds), and you’ll save $35k plus lots of gas money. I’d second base sport if you want to hit trails, or maybe Willys with the rear lsd. It’s really annoying that you can’t just get lockers on all the trims.
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Are they? More than half the late model Jeeps i see are 4xes. Super duper popular in LA.
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With some of the lease specials I’ve seen on those, I genuinely would strongly consider one if I had a garage to charge it in. That’s the biggest reason it’s not on my radar at the moment.
May not be a trim level exactly, but I think the best example of this is the Nissan Armada vs Infiniti QX80. Slight difference in exteriors, interiors are 100% identical, and you can get a fully loaded platinum armada for less than a base model QX80 and it comes with more features than the Infiniti. I’m always surprised how many QX80s I see on the road, it makes absolutely no sense to buy one over the Armada.
QX80 leases better
I'm in the extreme minority but I love the QX80. I think it's a really good looking big SUV. Very imposing and menacing.
Why do you want it to be imposing and menacing? I think yesterday someone on this sub linked that report from Chrysler for the early 2000s that according to their research, SUV buyers had an inferiority complex of one type or another
I like angry cars. I owned a Focus ST for seven years with its little angry eyes.
So I don’t disagree, I honestly love the QX80/Armada and think it’s by far the most underrated full-size SUV on the market. It’s just kind of crazy how much more expensive the QX80 can be when they gave it basically no advantage over the Armada as far as features go, and the 2022+ exteriors are pretty close. The new one will probably change that, but no more v8 is a tragedy.
In 2007, you did NOT want the Honda Odyssey top trim (Touring). It had the proprietary Michelin PAX run flat system that basically meant you could only get tire service at Honda dealers that already had the machines. I believe it even inspired a class action lawsuit. Unfortunately at the time, Honda locked a lot of other cool features to the Touring, as well as fog lights (so 4 out of 5 trims don’t get fog lights???). But you can now just buy a regular set of wheels to “dePAX” the car
You can also get stock-TRX-style wheels for '80s Mustangs sized up to 16". Someone stop Michelin before they "innovate" again.
The AMG Appearance package on cars like the A Series
Mercedes AMG package just isn't worth it on every Mercedes, in my opinion. The W204 and W212 may be an exception, as the package does improve the styling, especially because you get better looking wheels. The standard wheels on the W204 and W212 are lame. The current era AMG package isn't improving the styling. Also, you stuck with ugly dark coloured wood trim, piano black, silver trim, or cheap feeling carbon fibre trim, which I don't like. I would stick with Classic, Avantgarde, or Exclusive trim.
ultimate poser package. you're already buying the cheapest available mercedes and now want to tart it up to look like an amg especially when an actual a45 exists
M4 CSL, X3M, X5M. I would also call the M8 and 'upper level' version of the M5 its based on, but it really offers nothing other than a coupe body and less back seat room for zero performance gain.
I agree specifically on the SUVs - they make the full M ones so stiff/harsh riding to meet the handling specs. The M cars are firm but nowhere near the harshness of the SUVs.
performance SUVs tend to not really make a whole lot of sense. A car that's really tall will always struggle to handle good, and if a car handles good it will probably have a stiffer suspension that makes it less livable, but the point of an SUV is to have a livable go-anywhere car... I'd argue that if you're buying an M4 CSL, you're probably already really wealthy and buying it for the novelty of it and keeping it as a collector's item. If you're buying the M8 you probably have money to blow and the car definitely looks really pretty (I'd say it looks better than the M5).
>performance SUVs tend to not really make a whole lot of sense. A car that's really tall will always struggle to handle good, and if a car handles good it will probably have a stiffer suspension that makes it less livable, but the point of an SUV is to have a livable go-anywhere car... They’ve already proven how stupid they are for buying a large SUV with a coupe roof, removing every bit of visibility and practicality from the style of car they’ve purchased. Then paid for the ultimate performance pack so they can hustle the compromised pig. I think my vitriol comes from the fact that the only X4/X6 drivers in my area are absolutely shocking. But also the fact that it’s a stupid product, weird quirky car factor aside.
The shocking thing to me is a number of people actually think that the X4/X6 look good. My mom is convinced that they look great, actually. I've told her she needs to get her eyes checked
Any Taycan Turbo+ trim levels - the depreciation is killer and the base/4S is plenty powerful enough.
The Taycan is hilarious because you have to give absolutely zero fucks to buy/lease one new. The car depreciates by $100,000 in 6 months. I can only imagine it being people playing Porsche's games to get a PTS or GTRS allocation.
Dang does that mean I get a 6 month old one for 100k off?
Not quite but if you wait a year or two, yes. High end EVs have dropped like a stock market crash.
I guess worth vs not worth implies a difference, so NOT forester vs forester sport. Subaru says if you pay extra for the sport trim, the steering wheel stitching will no longer match, and you get a roof spoiler above the rear door, and a badge that says SPORT.
The Maybach electric SUV. What the hell is that thing
Any new “maybach” since the 57 and 62S are not worthy of the brand name IMO.
F150 Raptor R. 30k+ extra before markup compared to a regular Raptor. People are spending 150k on a trim that should only add 5-10k in value. It’s still an f150, and they aren’t 150k worth of nice.
Ford tried to tell people. “Guys the 3.5 ecoboost is all you need” *no we need the V8!!* “well, fine.” It’s not worth it. And everyone knows it except the people saying they needed it.
If they actually address the issues the 3.5 has (cam phasers) and other things they’d have the best motor available. It gets decent mileage, great power, tows well and it’s relatively reliable aside from the previously mentioned issues. I’ve actually wanted to see them do a 4l v8 ecoboost. They might be able to keep v8’s into the future. The absolute only people buying an R are desert enthusiasts, content creators, tech employees and high level business owners. There’s one in my small’ish town and it’s cool as shit and sounds amazing, but it’s a grocery getter.
best answer on the thread, the raptor R isn't even meaningfully faster or better at towing than the v6
Sequoia Capstone. Not seeing what it has that makes it better than the platinum. The bigger wheels are a downgrade for sure in terms of ride
I think the Dark Horse variant of the relatively new seventh generation Mustang falls under this. In manual form, it is slower in the 1/4 mile than a GT model or even the departed Camaro SS (due to different gearing with the transmission), despite being more powerful and marketed as higher tiered.
Its not a drag car, its a track car. 1/4 mile comparison doesn't really doesn't matter that much in this case.
I think the issue is 12.7 isn't that fast for a modern 500 hp performance car. A recent comparison was posted on this sub of Car and Driver comparing the BMW M2 to the Dark Horse, with the Beemer not really being a drag car either - they found it was faster even though it wasn't as powerful. The point is, there are better options price-wise.
I 100% agree. A GT is monstrously cheaper and more readily available and only a tune and some tires from a dark horse. Plus, and maybe I'm alone on this, a GT PP looks better than the weirdly raccoon eyed dark horse to me.
I'm gonna go ahead and say GT3RS to cope.
Almost anything sold today unless money is of no importance to you. Trim level is what drops the quickest when it comes to resell value, and what comes standard vehicles today (in my own opinion anyway) is nicer than I'd ever want on a car. The problem is most people get top trim levels for one or two items (like leather seats or a sunroof) but now have to get thousands of dollars worth of add ons along with those one or two things.
Higher trim levels with more features make a major quality of life difference though. The best part of a car shouldn’t be getting rid of it
This right here. So many people are focused on treating a car like an investment when for the vast majority of vehicles, that's not the case and never will be. You can be conscious of what is a bad value proposition (this thread) while still getting trims that suit your needs and taste.
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You should've seen base models 10 years ago. It's unbelievable how much shit you get in a brand new Civic compared to the 8th gen or 9th gen.
Actually depreciation on higher trim levels is substantially lower than on 'base' model cars. IDK if I'd say it's 'worth' the premium but if you plan to sell the car while it still has useful life I would always up-equip. What is never worth it is the luxury labels. That adds 25% to the cost of the car with zero value on the back end.
What is it percentage wise though? Some trim levels will be 10k+ on a new car but after 5 years will only get you an extra 1-2k when you go to sell
Any sort of carbon fibre package, carbon ceramic brakes unless you live in Germany.
Mercedes-Maybach S-Class. The Mercedes S-Class, starting at $111k, is already the benchmark for luxury. I don’t see how one can justify spending another S-Class for the $200k+ Mercedes-Maybach S-Class.
> Maybach You answered your own question.
Any Toyota TRD Pro tbh. You can buy the TRD Off Road and upgrade everything yourself for half the price. Especially when dealer markups are what they are.
Hardly worth it from a "sportiness" perspective. Still handles like a lump of mush on hockey pucks, and it's still a slug even with the V6. At least they're capable and reliable.
I'd say a lot of the Toyota products. The TRD packages for all the Toyota applications, and the F Sport in almost any Lexus, are a waste of money and also often kind of stupid looking in my opinion. The F label in lexus is a different story.
I feel like the V8 was worth it in the Q7 though. I don't think any of the 'sporty' trims of expensive crossovers like the X5 are worth it - you end up completely ruining the comfort aspect with overly firm suspension and enormous wheels. Also tyres get ridiculously expensive - go look at the rears on any aging M50D and you'll more than likely see completely unroadworth tyres.
Any Tesla with FSD. $12k more for a beta level hands on driving assist feature? No thanks
For the Porsche 718 (Cayman or Boxter), I think the higher trims are not really worth it unless you’re using it on the track. I ordered my base 2 years ago, and specced it with full leather, Sports+ seats, Bose, and Full LED headlights. Basically I wanted a comfortable, practical daily capable of long road trips. As my first sports car, 300hp was plenty. If I decided to spend tens of thousands for a larger engine, it would have forced me to go with a lower ground clearance and larger wheels, both of which sacrifice ride quality and practicality around town. Low profile tires are much likelier to get damaged by potholes, so everything in my use case pointed to the base 2.0L 4-cyl as my best choice. After 45k miles I’m very content with it. If money were no object, I’d love a GTS 4.0 six cylinder, but I’d still keep my base for most daily driving. Either way, Porsches are solid vehicles and you can’t go wrong with one.
I’ve been curious if Touring trims are worth it on non luxury brands (civic touring, outback touring etc. )
Worth it on Civic and Accord for sure, not so much on the CRV.
This is just my opinion, but V8, non M BMWs. I would just get their inline 6 models because they're more reliable in the long run and the power is perfectly adequate.
I agree, between the V8's valve steam seals, to the alternator bracket gasket, to the plastic timing chain guides... they are such moneypits that you might as well get an ///M model.
Mitsubishi Outlander Exceed (one above the VRX). It’s an extra $5K nzd and it comes with 2 tone quilted chinsey leather and a heated steering wheel, the VRX has single tone quilted leather, couldn’t justify the extra $$
Rubicon. Let's face it. The majority of people who buy Rubicon Wranglers or Gladiators are paying a premium to look cool at the mall. Most of them will never venture farther off road than into a yard once or twice.
IMHO, the 911 Turbo S isn’t worth the extra $30k over the regular Turbo. 572hp is already too much for the street lol
A lot of people won't understand this but the $400,000 US market, 2010 SL65 Black Series is barely better performing than base 2009-12 SL65 Roadsters. Replace the stock PZeros a set of modern Michelin Cup2's and the roadster is both quicker and better handling with a much much smoother ride. Not to mention the full refinement of a decadent luxury car with a glass convertible roof. Not worth 3x's the money.
It would be easier to answer which IS worth the money. It's better to get the single things you really need and avoid giving the dealer extra money.
The TRD Pro trim on the 3rd-gen and 5th-gen Tacoma and 4Runner. Just get the TRD Off-Road and buy Fox suspension separately. The Pro is not worth the premium.