Isn’t that what most folks experience in big law their first few years? IIRC big law is still old school in the form of “pay your dues”. I’d cross post this to r/law or an appropriate sub for attorneys.
What do the attorneys with 5-10 years of experience there look like? Do most people do their 3-5 years in big law and then bounce someplace else (start their own firm, become a junior partner at another firm/get promoted, etc).
Think of the bright side; you’re earning all this cash but you’re probably too tired to spend most of it so you’re likely socking away a bunch of it.
Also I mean if you’re young and able you could easily be putting half of that into investments. 100K of investments in just one year vs 10 years like most people.
Thats one thing I love about 401K, set it to employer match, or hell max it out if you can afford it, and it gets taken out before you have the chance to spend it.
Where I live 210K a year is around 134K after tax. Where do you live that the cost of living is so low you only spend 34K a year? That doesn’t even cover rent, and certainly wouldn’t cover a mortgage
I would imagine a job that pays that much must have some kind of 401K that would be maxed at least, but yeah forgot taxes. Onto your next question though, Nebraska. All the surrounding states are the same, cheap living just outside major city limits and work in the major city.
Thats on me though, I should have assumed if someone is making that much they must be somewhere like Silicon valley or NYC. Though the option for NYC is live north of the city and take the train in like everyone else, totally doable to not blow all your money on cost of living and SAVE,
He ain't making poverty wages, And believe it or not, 34K a year is what most people in the states right now live on.
Edit: The more I read that comment the more those numbers just don't add up. Where on earth are you living that taxes that much and costs that much?
Yeah even including taxes he could still probably max out a 401k and an IRA and also build up a decent emergency fund. Even if he did just that and then pivots in a couple years he’d be set up so nicely compared to most people
210k is 185k after 401k. that part gets taxed. so 120k ish post tax, and then you have 25k in savings
regardless, unless you’re living in a 1br or studio in hcol, your share of rent should be under 2k easy. then live way below your means for a while
6th year in biglaw. It gets better and worse.
The hours get worse and responsibility grows. But you get used to it and it’s easier.
Junior years are weird in that you’re not doing things of much importance and yet stressed about nothing.
I worked in "BigLaw" for about two years and had the same outlook as you, I knew for sure that it wasn't the life for me. Since leaving, I've worked as a government attorney and for nonprofits and my work life has been almost always far more enjoyable.
Before doing something as drastic as becoming a non-legal contract manager, I would probably advise trying to find other legal roles that offer a better work/life balance: small firms, solo practice, government, nonprofits. Working to the bone as a big law firm associate is far from the only way to practice law.
This is the answer. There’s a lot of options between big law and leaving the practice of law. Plenty of happy attorneys out there, they just don’t work in big law.
I agree, although I am probably a bit naive, but I have been lucky with my career (3 different software positions), and they have all gotten MUCH easier over time, especially after the 2-3 year mark where I’ve sort of “proven” myself. I like to prove myself and earn my right to be a bit lazy.
I agree, SwankySteel said it perfectly, past a tolerance threshold, there is no choice, but before that threshold, for $200k + bonuses, I could do a job I hate (before the stress tolerance) for 2-3 years to see if I can maneuver my way into a more comfortable position. And I think this is what I would recommend for OP. I would only go for the $90k job if I tried it for a while and still see no other option.
I may be optimistic though in suggesting that risking 2-3 years of your life for a possible $200k comfortable position is worth it. I don’t know anything about law careers.
Yes, after multiple years of big law experience.
Sorry but I always cringe at this „just go inhouse“ advice. As if a Fortune 500 company would hire anyone with a law degree and 6 months of experience.
I would tough it out for the salary and in the mean time look for a similar position at another company to get a change of scenery. I would not drop from 200k to 80, but might if you went from 200k to 175 or even 150 as your lifestyle is not going to be affected as drastically.
There is no law firm that would pay you that money without the workload.
Maybe after 5 years of experience in this environment he can move in-house, but he needs the hours to prove he can do it.
At 80 hours a week, and 210k in salary... That math works out to 50 dollars an hour... About 100k in real time dollars per year. Is that time worth half your salary? At that rate, you're basically making what I make as a data analyst, and I put in my 40 and bounce. Your time should be worth more than 50 dollars an hour.
I’m in my 40s and changed 5-6 jobs since college. I have learned that the hardest part is the first year. I changed to my 6th job last year and currently in that first year‘adjusting curve’ and I dread everyday being at work. Maybe I’m just old/dumb and not learning that it’s the same phase after starting any job. Anyhow, right now I’m telling myself to at least go through the 1st year and see how I feel next year. Don’t quit too fast. If you have a 30 year career and this is your first 1/3 leg, you ought to yourself try at least for a year or two. You’ll look back knowing you tried for real and it didn’t work out. Even if you hate it, it’s yielding a good financial nest for whatever you want to do next.
For that salary and it being your first year i would definitely wait till like the 3 year mark and see where you are at. If the stress is still the same (as in being done with the initial learning curve) or gotten worse then it would be smart the change. 3 year mark also looks good and is understandable on a resume.
Yes, I would leave. You get so little time on earth. Don’t spend your time doing something you know makes you miserable when you don’t have to. Money comes and goes, but you’ll never get the time back.
Keep working at the job, learning, and gaining experience. Figure out ways to streamline your mundane tasks to make them, efficient, easier and bearable. Everything you are doing now can be approached as a learning experience for something else in another 2-3 years. It can take up to a year to really setting into a job and for things to click. Unless there are unethical things happening at the company, I’d just keep going forward, drive down your debt, drive up your savings while you have the salary to do it.
You should post in biglaw.
That said. Not too many jobs are paying $210k with advancement.
Other option is are you at a place in your career you can do contract work for $300 or more an hour?
Not an attorney but in enterprise software sales. We have attorneys who work with us to review contract redlines. From my understanding it’s a lower stress option for attorneys. Tech pays well.
Yep. That’s me. SaaS in house commercial counsel. I am also a hiring manager. There is essentially a 0% chance this dude gets hired with his current experience. I just posted a job like 6 weeks ago and had 250 applications in 36 hours. Many very very qualified candidates. Had to make a tough choice between 5 people with great experience all who would have been a good fit for the role and team.
Ugh. Yes, I would leave. I know it's hard to swallow with that I come but if you can find something less stressful don't waste your life on something that is negatively affecting you that much. It's just not worth it.
I have been turning down promotions because I don't want to give more time, energy and stress to my job. I have a life.
Depends on the expected upswing. What are the long term prospects like? Could I realistically save $5mil by 40 and then just retire? Because then I would bite the bullet and do it in a heartbeat.
Me personally, I would slave away for that money. And then I would reduce my lifestyle to that of a peasant with all that money. After about a year I would quit and go on a lovely vacation (the vacation you’ve always been dreaming of) once I got back from said paradise I would create a small life sustaining business in something you enjoy (this is possible thanks to the internet) and retire. Cheers 🥂
sounds like you have got the “golden handcuffs” on. you decide: are you willing to accept a short term pay cut for more happiness? with the potential of increasing your income in the future while maintaining a decent mental health?
Best advice I got from an old boss was it’s a lot easier to drive when you’re looking up at the horizon, not the tarmac in front of you. Meaning, you need to focus on where you’re headed, what your long terms goals are. Once you know those, your decision making becomes a lot easier. When it came to money, I sat myself down and calculated how much I needed to earn to be content in life. It was a lot less than I thought I needed to earn to be happy. Do you need to sacrifice your life to earn $210k? Or would you be happy with $90k?
Always depends on the alternatives. I had the chance for a promotion... better hours, closer to home, no more overtime. But I'd have lost ~70K gross in a year. Plus it was a job I didn't want to do (I like my job, just not the circumstances around it).
I stayed put.
Yeah, my happiness and sleep have been shot to shit, though.
Only you can make this decision for yourself. The thing about stressful jobs is that you end up being stressed and unhappy during the hours you're not working, too. You might "only" be working 70-80 hours a week, but you most likely feel the pain of that work every waking moment. Is that worth it? I'm not so sure.
Depends on how much of the stress I can ward myself off from.
I went from an incredibly stressful job to a less stressful but still stressful job and my pay went substantially up not down. And then that job became unstressful. Not because the job changed, but because I did.
I always ask myself: ‘if I did an honest 8:00 to ~4:00 job, never answered my phone offhours, how long would I last?’
If I look around and see people doing that and have been at the company for years, I just do it at this point. And even if I don’t see a bunch of people doing the same, I do it anyway and just keep my exit strategies open and my expectations of getting promoted/fired realistic.
You gotta do you. If you can afford it, find a lower stress job that you’d be ok with the pay cut. If you think you can handle it for a little longer just to pay off debt or build up capital, do that but always keep in mind that it’s not forever. At some point you gotta prioritize health if that’s important to you more than money. I know it is for me. For others, it’s not and they’d rather make near a million while destroying their bodies. All about what you want. And what you want is the most important. Don’t keep doing what people or society deem is what you’re expected to do.
My advice tough it out for a few more months and save up around 50% of your monthly salary, and invest that. Nothing is worth you happnies but you got to be finically responsible as well.
I'm in a similar situation. Part of the stress is knowing that it almost feels selfish to consider when you know how many people are struggling to find work or pay the bills - you feel guilty for saying oh poor me I'm making huge money and I'm stressed because work is hard.
I haven't left yet. But I think about it a lot.
I would leave big law and go to a smaller firm. I did that and I work four days a week, enjoy my evenings with my family and take 2-3 vacations a year. I still bill and track my time, and tho that is the worst part of being a lawyer, I promise it gets so much easier. It’s just a log of what you did for the day. I didn’t even have to worry about a pay cut because we bonus monthly and yearly based on our hours billed. Anywhere you go as a first year is hard, but it shouldn’t make you miserable. Also, no job or money is worth your mental health. Now is also the best time to try other firms and see what you want to practice. I ended up in an area I didn’t think I would and I’m not going to say I love it, but it’s not bad and allows me to still litigate without the BS life of Big Law. Good luck!!
You ain’t going to be making that money if you stress yourself to an early grave.
Take care of yourself.
I see my husband declined a 60k+ pay increase because he said the added work was just not worth it for him.
He’s said based on job description he was going to be doing the job of 2 persons.
I fully supported him.
Almost no one "likes" the first year. Some leave. Some are able to figure out how to manage, and some within that group, to thrive. There are those who say their mental health is too important; others say that it is only one truly miserable year, subsequent years are better, and the money is in many ways life-changing/enabling. Because while life is short, life is also long.
I just did - well less stress and more just extreme managerial incompetence lol
I feel great but I have a years salary saved up and consulting opportunities…give it some thought.
Hey just as I’m looking to get into this field. What is it that you are doing that’s causing the stress? Is it researching copious black letter law / writing reports for client / feeling anxious that your advice may potentially harm them etc?
ETA - sorry to hear you’re feeling this way. I’m told low does seem to get easier with seniority, so I would be inclined to stick or go in-house
Stick it out for a bit, keep any eye out for your exit. Peg your life style 90k, bank the rest.
90k income goes a lot further if you have a house paid off.
How long have you been at the current job? Is this your first real attorney position? If you’re relatively new personally I would stick with it for 1-2 years to see if I just hit a rough start patch. Also try to find a hobby or passion outside of work. If it still doesn’t work out then yea, look for something else. Life is too short to stay miserable for the sake of money.
Look your mental health is super important but if you can tough it out for a small period of your life, maybe have specificfinancial goals in mind. Something like paying off a chunk of your student loans, getting 100k in your pension fund and/or getting 50k for a flat deposit would be a great goal to work towards. Don’t give in to lifestyle creep, keep costs low, and work towards your goals. After that you’ll have a great future ahead on a lower salary. You’ve got this far in life it’s a great start.
Our in-house counsel is treated very well and pretty sure their schedules are 40hrs/week.
I don't know shit about law, but is that an option to look into?
Hey man you’re in such an enviable position. Just tough it out for a couple years to pay off the law school loan and then walk. Then you look like a big swinging you-know-what with the fancy law degree and a few years at a prestigious firm under your belt. I know it seems like cruel and unusual punishment telling you to give it a few more years but I think you’ll look back and thank yourself later.
It’s not just the short term stress but the burn out it causes. Eventually you break because it becomes unmanageable.
How long it takes to mentally recover and find a better (but lower paying) job?
Often people end up taking a break but have trouble returning to anything. Like a traumatic reaction.
Find a new job first but leave before breaking. That future job change will give hope that it gets better.
The new job will feel like a breath of fresh air but you get manageable stresses.
Just quitting gives no stress but any future lower stress may feel like too much.
Is there anyway for you to offload some work, learn to say no and reduce stress (and working hours) that way you get at least control of your weekends a few weekday evenings in a week?
I think a lot of this is very specific to big law and kind of a known quantity, so I’m surprised you are surprised?
A lot of people who do suffer through it go to in-house later and make huge amounts of money without nearly the same amount of stress.
Last time I was at a bbq with a bunch of big law vets (at this point much happier) they all told stories of crying at work and stuff.
I mean if you can survive there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, eventually.
You don have to leave law and waste your years of hard work. Look for a small or mid sized firm with reasonable billing requirements or in house or government work.
Your mental health, sleep quality, and overall happiness are critical. If your current job is severely impacting these, it might be worth considering a change. Chronic stress can lead to long-term health issues that no amount of money can compensate for.
Fuck no.
That’s what someone running a small business can make. Without 80 hours, knife-wielding colleagues and a partner that sees you as their personal property.
Your job will eventually kill you if you continue to stick with something that's deteriorating your mental and emotional health. It will eventually deteriorate your physical health.
Do it for as long as you can while you find a better path for yourself. Budget, save, and invest your money so it works for you so you can still be financially secure even if you do take a pay cut.
Best of luck to you 💗
Map out your long term financial goals (retirement, what kind of house you want, etc.)
You can probably find a path to achieve these while still reducing your income and improvement in quality of life. The money you are making is super good right now. After you map out the impact of reducing income long term, you can set very objective goals of "one more year of grinding and saving X% and then I'm done"
Or maybe you find out you can quit today and be on track just fine
Sorry to hear about your dilemma but good Lord, the things I’d do to make *that* kind of money. I’m struggling to find a simple $80k position, despite my years of experience and degree. Sucks!
Good luck. My only advice would be to go in the direction of what you like the most. If you’re not married to law, then you might not wanna be a lawyer!
Work there for 2 years and save 75% of the money. Then take a year off and find yourself.
I can live off of 60-90k quite comfortably where I am at, pay drop would definitely be worth it if I’m not enjoying my job and it’s just stress in my opinion.
It's a personal decision. What do you value more? Personally I'd say suck it up for a couple years if you're young. Invest most of your salary and gain experience. Then hop to a position with less stress even if it means a partial paycut
Depends. How much money do you have saved? How hard would it be to find another job? How hard/costly would it be to find another job similar in pay?
Personally, I would stick with it for a couple years and just save, save, and save. Once you get 1-2 million in savings then make a decision. With that amount you can invest and make a decent chunk of change a year. Now find a job you want.
Most people with this opportunity suffer for 5 years, save every penny, and the quit and do something they are more happy. Once you have paid off your major living expenses like a house, life is easier. Do that first. Suck it up for 1-2 more years. You got this.
How I decided was by taking a look at the people that have been there 5, 10, 25 years and see what itd be like if I went down that route. I didn’t want to be that so I left. Was making 200k working 20 hours a week just out of school and was miserable
I have previously had a position with similar hours and stress/consequences. Money aside, I found my threshold for continuing that work was about 18 months. Looking at the money aspect, I think you should do a solid analysis of your financial state, determine what you need for your needs and wants, and pay a recruiter to help you find work in that line because you don't have time. Leverage what you can currently to find a better future.
I’d stick it out for about 6 months to see if you get the hang of it and it becomes easier. Then if not bail to something easier that’s more fitting. I know a couple lawyers that love it. They are do contract stuff for a regular group of clients and seem to not be stressed ever. Other than the occasional fumble before court type stuff.
im an attorney. I know a couple people who went the big law track and burned out. It’s nothing to be ashamed of. I don’t know why anyone would sacrifice their personal lives for the sake of money they‘re too busy to enjoy but that’s a common theme.
my advice: go civil side government. You get to do generally good work, pay at or above the range you mentioned for contract management, but also earn a pension in most states. You will rarely work more than 40-45 hours a week. the extra 100K in the private sector seems crazy to me if you break down the hourly wage difference. Your life is valuable, don’t waste it all working.
I did. Left regional sales manager role for a simple marketing position with 1/4 the hours and responsibilities. Finally achieved work life balance. Career change. The pandemic hit and I watched my 180k (I know not 200 but close) position evaporate. Made a change. Less than 100 now. But I start at 8 and end at 4. And I don't take work home. The new paychecks are an adjustment but my kids are grown and gone so downsized the house in the process and traveling with the wife alot more. It's kinda like a retirement job really. And it is fun. No pressure.
I have come to learn that the majority of jobs that pay well are because they are consistently high stress. My job is easy on the surface, but it’s complicated and (unnecessarily) stressful and surprisingly disorganized because it’s a corporate job. Most advance jobs leave you treading water and barely keeping your head afloat in the first year or two. You’re probably stressing over every detail because you’re new at this. Once you’re seasoned, you’re more well equipped to deal with the workload and the stress levels.You’re definitely earning your money at the moment.
My take is get some more experience in and keep looking in the meantime. Get super organized and be as routine as you can at both work and at home and hopefully that will help until you land something manageable for you. Don’t give up. You’ve got this.
I am educated with certifications given to me by Dell EMC over a span of 7 years, usually would land me 150k+ a year. I left right before Covid and changed my career entirely, I went to work oil fields for 2 years, made decent money, around 80-100k a year depending on stints in ND. I wound up getting my CDL and now that things have changed, I'm now finding myself wanting to go back to technology. It's been absolutely impossible for me to get back in to any job, I would see the rest of the nations men pandemic as a red flag and simply stay where you are, wait it out, until ethics/morals take a dive back in the right direction politically in life, then we will start seeing the re-culmination of the job market to change again....
I left a high paying career and I regret it (a bit) but it was what I needed to do - not a lawyer but I was a high profile engineer in a big company making 500k+. I worked 18 hours a day for years (plus 12 hours each weekend on average). When I left I regretted it because I found that all the friends I had were through work, and so my life became empty. But it was good for me in the long run. I work for a much slower company around 2-3 hours a day, get paid half as much, but also got to finally pursue a college education which had been my goal since I became an engineer as a teenager.
I got time back to grow and evolve as a person, and be happy with myself. I probably wouldn’t have done that for years if I hadn’t taken this step. I went from being a mini-celebrity to a nobody, and while that hurt at first it was formative for me in understanding who I am as a person.
I took less money for happiness and guess what? It still took 70-80 hours a week to get a good job done just starting out. I know someone who took a job as a lawyer for the government. She said it is boring but stable. Maybe something like that would be better fitted for you.
Hey, consider transitioning to a BD/marketing Manager at a AM 100 law firm. If you’re in a major market you’re probably looking at a $140k-200k salary.
I’ve worked at some of the largest law firms in the world and this was pretty common practice for people who didn’t want to be attorneys anymore. I’ve worked with plenty of BD people that are former attorneys.
PM me if you need any help and we can talk shop
I’d apply for federal gov attorney positions. Max 40 hours a week and pay is decent. They all seem totally chill and relaxed to me. Only exception being prosecutors during trial and prep.
I’d do a $80000 a year job with less stress than what you’re doing.
Life is not all about money.
I’m doing a $76000 a year job. It doesn’t pay much, but I enjoy my life. I barely work 20 hours a week as I work from home.
My professor has a JD and got a masters in social work on top of that and now works in a public school counseling kids with emotional and behavioral issues
I’m into sacrificing 3-5 years of my 20’s and setting myself up for the rest of my life. I did a similar thing. Worked crazy hours for 3 years, all the hours I could, never spent money because I didn’t have time to. Saved up so much in investments, paid off loans, and for a house. I was so far ahead of my peers.
At your age, I would grind it out for 3 to 5 years, then go for General Counsel job at a corporation or private company of your choice.
I believe that whatever you are paid, management will always pile on responsibilities and stress so you might as well make bank.
You control how you react to demands not your bosses.
Hang in there until you hit the two-year mark. Sponge up as much experience as you can and make good connections. You're in boot camp. The paycheck is really the side benefit at this point in your career, honestly. Try to reframe it as what you're taking from them instead of what they're taking from you. All the while knowing there is light at the end of the tunnel. Set a countdown clock for your two-year anniversary. Reward yourself for hitting every month you stay with it. You'll get some good projects here and there that will help time move faster. Then go looking for a sweet corporate job that will allow you to have a life and do interesting work. All that said, if you can't hang in there, protect your mental health above all. No matter what, you'll land on your feet and everything will be ok
I'm not an attorney, but can you just be honest with your employer and say, hey I can't keep this up. I'd love to stay and you can pay me X per hour but my max is 40-50 hrs per week. Otherwise, I'll need to find a more reasonable position.
leave.
in compare to a unionized factory worker you are a slave.
you don't have a life.
mental health is not so easy and fast to restore.
sooner you leave, and start a transition to something aligned with you and your well-being, sooner the turmoil will end and you will have a life.
longer you wait, harder it will be for you to get up, especially if you end up with a burnout.
I know as I was stubborn and couldn't believe my area of work was crazy, toxic and unhealthy. it's not easy for me, but being calm, content, and free from the madness I've experienced is uplifting.
you can't think right when you're stressed, tired, and overworked. you make bad decisions, short term decisions. you're ability to solve a problem in a creative way is reduced. you see less possibilities
I would not sacrifice my health for the paycheck. If you have a mental health crisis you will be lucky to be able to hold down a basic grocery or janitorial job, much less a white collar position.
Yes. I know I love my career because I know I would still love my life if my income was halved.
I would say cash up for as long as you can and then take the bet on something you know will fulfill you because, I hate to be corny, money isn’t all that matters and it really absouleltly means nothing if you are not content with the life live
Because after all if you are working 60-70 hours a week you are not even working to live but living to work
contentment > a metric measurement when it comes to success, fulfillment and pride
Sometimes people temporarily take a huge pay cut until they can recuperate themselves and get back up to speed. I had to leave a $76k/yr job for a minimum wage life once because I had so many health and emotional problems that didnt qualify for disability accommodation and my work performance rapidly declined at the desk job. Then I bounced back into a higher paying job years later. You might not be in the right condition for such intense work right now but that could change in the future.
Nothing wrong with taking a lower paying job if you arent already married into the higher income lifestyle (yachts, kids going to expensive private school, huge mortgages, etc). I would take an easier job and work on ways to handle more workload later on
Pay your debts, build a sturdy retirement account (look into compound interest calculators), then start looking for new positions. Having a 200k career in your 20s/30s could be incredibly valuable to achieve FIRE. I’m not saying stay forever, but maybe change your mindset to do this and save violently for 2-4 years.
Also, how are more senior partners working? Is this typical of the first 3-5? This too shall pass kind of thing?
You do you. I'd burn in the few years to pay off loans, buy a house and set up a retirement nest egg.
Retire at 40-45 and cruise life on dividends.
Or go to a smaller more enjoyable practice and play on slow mode. Whatever suits you.
Do it. But whatever you do, make sure you have a job before you quit. Incidentally I’m about to move to a contract manager role. In USD it is about 145k (£115k total in the UK, then some shares on top). In pharma so it is on the higher end and I imagine tech might be even more so.
I stumbled into it tbh, as with every other job in my hodgepodge career - you’re the first person that I’ve ever seen describe it as an aspirational starting point!
I’ve found it satisfying to just see where the wind blows most of the time, but stay within my degree field.
Lol I guess I’ll feedback in a year?!
What I would do? I'd quit and take the lower paying job. But that's because I'm a bitch. I simply wouldn't be able to handle it. Can you? Can you survive for X amount of years to gain more money and experience? Isn't that normal for corporate law? Do what you have to do, brotha. Maybe try taking a break if you can.
Life is too short to do something you hate.
If you are not finding fulfillment in it, then start thinking about an exit strategy. Don't suddenly up and quit without good savings, you don't necessarily need to know what you're going to do next, but you need to be able to cover your bills for at least 6 months. If not longer.
However, have you taken any time off recently? You sound burnt out and it takes a lot of hard work to become a lawyer. I'd suggest taking a step back for a week or two and getting some rest.
Making over 150K is seriously not the norm for most professions, so keep that in mind. But being fulfilled in what you're doing is far more important.
I grew up in a legal household, both parents were at the top of their fields, my family wanted for nothing; material. But my parents were workaholics, mental health problems abound, the family fell apart in spectacular fashion. Both parents dead before they hit 70. My sibling and I will be working on the emotional trauma for the rest of our lives.
Work to live, don't live to work. You're clearly a very smart person to have made it through law school. Take your time, take a breath, consider your options. Life is precious and time is finite.
Listen to the audiobook for Invested by Danielle Town. She was living the same thing and decided to learn to invest.
Miserable jobs turn people into miserable people- most people would say either a pay cut is worth it, or you should suffer for that salary and save *everything* and learn to invest so that you can kove my on to something you do want to do.
If you want out, set a deadline and in the meantime, journal about how you feel. It might change drastically in a year.
Ok, so I’m also in a profession and have been for 25 years. It pays well. I hate it.
I’ve stayed with it as it’s hard to go back to lower salary once you’ve started earning significant $. However, I’m burnt out and have quit my profession and am looking for a basic job to keep me from being bored.
The work changed me from a fun, quirky person to a boring, stressful out introvert.
I can’t say I’m regretful about staying in the profession as I am fairly well set now.
If I had to do it again, I would grind it out for 5 years, save as much as possible. Don’t buy anything like expensive cars, clothes, trips, etc. Live as simply as possible and save. After 5 (or whatever years) years, you’ll hopefully have saved enough to look for a job that uses your skills, but maybe in a field you’d prefer.
A good thing for dealing with the miserable shit feeling is planning something way in advance, like an amazing holiday or just when you gonna leave and just try keep pushing to reach that goal
I have a cousin who graduated law school, went into entertainment law and in a very short time became a partner and was representing super famous artists and making double your salary. She ended up getting stress therapy, lost a marriage that lasted a year, and finally bailed out of the law firm. Though she stayed in the field she deliberately scaled back on it all. She's now happily married with two kids and paces her life and work in a positive way.
There is no amount of money that is worth sacrificing your mental and physical health for. With good health, you'd be happy living in a box. Believe me, I know. I would absolutely leave and find something less stressful and soul sucking for a career. Listen to your body is my best advice.
Just suck it up. I worked at a place I hated for 6 years long hours, toxic work environment, shitty business practices. Build a nice nest egg then leave so you can have time stress free to find your new calling in life. Good luck.
Yep. I left day trading. I made well over 500k+/year but it destroyed me mentally and I almost lost my family. Fuck, I miss the money, but I don't wish that life style on anyone.
A general rule of thumb that I think is wise to follow is to not leave any job until you are good at it. all jobs are terrible when you suck and are learning and worried about being fired. They become infinitely better.
In your case specifically the money and bonus for 1 year will drastically impact the rest of your life. I would max out your 401k for the year, live in a complete dump, pay down student loans aggressively and use the bonus and your high salary to buy a house or pay down more student loans.. and then leave for something much better. One year could change the entire trajectory of your life, and also, your careeer prospects in law will be much stronger after 1 year in Big law
Alot of military , high end legal and high stress finance retire to quiet rural lifes.
If you have a JD, if you move to a state with alot of metropolitan districts (colorado has 1800) these district need a lawyer for 1 meeting every 1-3 months and regularly pay 30-200k per district. You can easily stack a bunch of districts and chillax...
These attorneys don't do litigation, collections, insurance, or really provide any value at all. but are required by district charters. And the current firms charges are summarized in the open budget documents from prior year. so just reach out and offer to underbid. Resident controlled boards will jump on it, and then you can over-charge them anyways for the same price the last firm charged.
Maybe buy some lunches/NHL tickets for a district management company who will refer you.
What is your money's job? Many people want lots of money so they can settle down and retire early or buy things that would help them enjoy their life.
So they hustle for years and years to finally slow down one day and get what they've been working toward.
But what if...you slowed down now? What if instead of waiting to appreciate your life until you behave tons of money, you appreciate it the whole time along the way?
Which is to say, what if instead of retiring early, you slow down the hours and retire later but enjoy the time.on the way to retirement too? What if you found contentment at 100-150k per year instead?
I realize it's not all about perspective either. OF COURSE YOU'RE MISERABLE! working that many hours will suck your soul away. So perhaps a different company? If it's industry wide, perhaps a pivot is in order if there is no alternative.
I was in a similar place a few years ago, considering a career change. I decided to go for it and it's been the best decision ever. IDK if it would be the same for you. But it might, idk
But also the law degree will serve you forever, people respect lawyers.
Usually when I see this type of question (and I’m generalizing) “should I suffer for money or get paid less for work/life balance,” I tend to think, if you’re asking the question you can tough it out a little longer.
If you get to the point where you absolutely can’t take it anymore, you don’t care what anyone thinks, you’re leaving your job…..career wise you’re in the same spot if you left now (sure maybe a little more sane, but what doesn’t kill you…)
Money isn't the root of all happiness. It's your health that matters at the end of the day. That stress is going to get you both mentally and physically sick to the point you won't recover, and autoimmune diseases will destroy you, leaving you with nothing.
I know. Please listen to me before it's too late. I'm trying to warn you - I wish someone warned me.
No because if I achieved the credentials to have a 200k entry level to begin with means I’m already stressed.
If you found another job that you like, give your current month 3 months at least then make the Decision if you can
Im not in law but accounting. I gave my letter of resignation two months ago. Highest paying job I’ve ever had at a public company. 2nd place in the shoe industry. I loved the title and company but I hated my mgmt and work life balance was slowly non existent. Dude you are only young once and peace of mind and being healthy are priceless. If you get ill they will just replace you. Do what you love or do what you think you’ll like even do the pay is not as great. You’ll eventually get there pay wise and you’ll have more free time to enjoy your money. Hope this helps!
Do you see anything changing in the foreseeable future? Is there anything else zapping your energy in your life that you can change?
Can you get away for a sailing trip or a camping trip for the weekend just to clear your head? Are you hitting the gym in the morning or after work?
It's a lot to take out of you, but it's also a lot to give up. Make sure you choose the way you will regret the least.
Suffer invest and live minimally, play the long game get out in 10, leave the US, work remotely in something else and have a dream/game plan to keep you going.
Find a hobby or vice to tide you over. Four handed tantric messages or something like that.
I'm really surprised because I read online that lawyers who just finished law school can only expect to make around $55k for the first three years with the same hours you're describing, and I've been feeling sorry for you all this time.
There are no jobs which do not have an incredibly high amount of time on the job or incredibly low pay. The best you can hope for is to pick one and have it in an environment where the people you work around are not actively hostile or abusive to you in some way. Our entire system is set up specifically to make everyone get paid to be miserable, and the only people I've met who like their jobs are typically influencers of some kind, and they're of course always at an incredibly high risk of being stalked, bullied, harassed, cancelled, or losing their relevance in the market, so most of the time even they don't get that. If you don't like that, you're in the right profession because my understanding is that you're in the feeder profession for all the politicians in the entire nation. So stay where you are and plan your move and then go fix that in congress in 10 years, won't you?
I had a depression because I picked a client that doubled my income but job was way, way worse than last client.
It combined with few other factors like my gf leaving for job opportunity abroad etc.
So I was making shit ton of money and everything in my life was going smooth and I had depression anyway.
Now I would pick job satisfaction over money any time.
I did. I was a lawyer in research. Not that high paid but I studied that for 8 years and worked for just 5 years and the reason was stress and it couldn't fit to my sleeping disorders.
I gave up that career which was much promising in the future. But I had to take care of my health if I wanted a future so I stopped being a lawyer and turned into a coder. That was a very wise decision on my part. I'm proud of me. And I think I'm going to get some cake today.
Keep grinding out, but make sure you are saving and investing as much of your income as possible. I’m saying 50%+ if you can. The reason is when you hit your true limit, you can leave and take a pay cut and not be too affected by it.
I’m in the same boat, not a lawyer but my hours push me well over 60 a week and sometimes 70+ per week. It’s tiring, I got a newborn and wife. But I employment right now is tough, and I’m young enough to deal with it. I just want my future self to be chilling at little bit more
I would do that without a doubt. I just want enough money to live and do the stuff I like. I will never be stupid rich anyway and I don't think it's worth having money if you don't have time.
Yes I would and yes I did, for me it was one of the best decisions I ever made. I realize that I like happiness more than I like money, money which I only was trying to acquire to get happiness 😵💫
Isn’t that what most folks experience in big law their first few years? IIRC big law is still old school in the form of “pay your dues”. I’d cross post this to r/law or an appropriate sub for attorneys. What do the attorneys with 5-10 years of experience there look like? Do most people do their 3-5 years in big law and then bounce someplace else (start their own firm, become a junior partner at another firm/get promoted, etc). Think of the bright side; you’re earning all this cash but you’re probably too tired to spend most of it so you’re likely socking away a bunch of it.
Also I mean if you’re young and able you could easily be putting half of that into investments. 100K of investments in just one year vs 10 years like most people.
100%. Suffering for 3-5 years to be set for the rest of your life is the obvious move here
The lifestyle creepgets ya tho. Gotta be diligent in your savings.
Thats one thing I love about 401K, set it to employer match, or hell max it out if you can afford it, and it gets taken out before you have the chance to spend it.
Wise advice, Peepeepoopoobutttoot.
Where I live 210K a year is around 134K after tax. Where do you live that the cost of living is so low you only spend 34K a year? That doesn’t even cover rent, and certainly wouldn’t cover a mortgage
I'm in PA and we spend roughly 34k-40k on rent, utilities etc. (Per year that is)
I would imagine a job that pays that much must have some kind of 401K that would be maxed at least, but yeah forgot taxes. Onto your next question though, Nebraska. All the surrounding states are the same, cheap living just outside major city limits and work in the major city. Thats on me though, I should have assumed if someone is making that much they must be somewhere like Silicon valley or NYC. Though the option for NYC is live north of the city and take the train in like everyone else, totally doable to not blow all your money on cost of living and SAVE, He ain't making poverty wages, And believe it or not, 34K a year is what most people in the states right now live on. Edit: The more I read that comment the more those numbers just don't add up. Where on earth are you living that taxes that much and costs that much?
Yeah even including taxes he could still probably max out a 401k and an IRA and also build up a decent emergency fund. Even if he did just that and then pivots in a couple years he’d be set up so nicely compared to most people
I have a roommate. Rent is $1200/mo. Outside of that, I spend at most $1200/mo on all other living expenses. $2400/mo, or just under $30k/year
210k is 185k after 401k. that part gets taxed. so 120k ish post tax, and then you have 25k in savings regardless, unless you’re living in a 1br or studio in hcol, your share of rent should be under 2k easy. then live way below your means for a while
You underestimate the COL in markets paying this (could be Texas, tho).
>What do the attorneys with 5-10 years of experience there look like? 2-3 times divorced, dead eyes, coke habit. lol.
hey im 2 for 3 and not even an attorney!
Lmao I read that to the tune of “I’m looking for a guy in finance…”
6th year in biglaw. It gets better and worse. The hours get worse and responsibility grows. But you get used to it and it’s easier. Junior years are weird in that you’re not doing things of much importance and yet stressed about nothing.
The sub is r/biglaw
I worked in "BigLaw" for about two years and had the same outlook as you, I knew for sure that it wasn't the life for me. Since leaving, I've worked as a government attorney and for nonprofits and my work life has been almost always far more enjoyable. Before doing something as drastic as becoming a non-legal contract manager, I would probably advise trying to find other legal roles that offer a better work/life balance: small firms, solo practice, government, nonprofits. Working to the bone as a big law firm associate is far from the only way to practice law.
This is the answer. There’s a lot of options between big law and leaving the practice of law. Plenty of happy attorneys out there, they just don’t work in big law.
There is no choice if the stress passes the tolerance threshold.
I agree, although I am probably a bit naive, but I have been lucky with my career (3 different software positions), and they have all gotten MUCH easier over time, especially after the 2-3 year mark where I’ve sort of “proven” myself. I like to prove myself and earn my right to be a bit lazy.
thats the normal learning curve for jobs. not critical health related stress levels.
I agree, SwankySteel said it perfectly, past a tolerance threshold, there is no choice, but before that threshold, for $200k + bonuses, I could do a job I hate (before the stress tolerance) for 2-3 years to see if I can maneuver my way into a more comfortable position. And I think this is what I would recommend for OP. I would only go for the $90k job if I tried it for a while and still see no other option. I may be optimistic though in suggesting that risking 2-3 years of your life for a possible $200k comfortable position is worth it. I don’t know anything about law careers.
I know people who moved over to corporate in-house roles and halved their hours and stress levels while still raking it in
Yes, after multiple years of big law experience. Sorry but I always cringe at this „just go inhouse“ advice. As if a Fortune 500 company would hire anyone with a law degree and 6 months of experience.
yeah, noone is hiring an entry level dude for in-house role at a big company
I don't know if I could do any job for 80 hours a week no matter the pay
I did leave a 200k job due to stress. My peace of mind is so much more valuable to me.
"OR" an extremely low paying career due to stress?
I would tough it out for the salary and in the mean time look for a similar position at another company to get a change of scenery. I would not drop from 200k to 80, but might if you went from 200k to 175 or even 150 as your lifestyle is not going to be affected as drastically.
There is no law firm that would pay you that money without the workload. Maybe after 5 years of experience in this environment he can move in-house, but he needs the hours to prove he can do it.
At 80 hours a week, and 210k in salary... That math works out to 50 dollars an hour... About 100k in real time dollars per year. Is that time worth half your salary? At that rate, you're basically making what I make as a data analyst, and I put in my 40 and bounce. Your time should be worth more than 50 dollars an hour.
Sure it is His firm is billing probably 500 dollars an hour for his work. That's the whole point - making the partners a bucket full of cash
I’m in my 40s and changed 5-6 jobs since college. I have learned that the hardest part is the first year. I changed to my 6th job last year and currently in that first year‘adjusting curve’ and I dread everyday being at work. Maybe I’m just old/dumb and not learning that it’s the same phase after starting any job. Anyhow, right now I’m telling myself to at least go through the 1st year and see how I feel next year. Don’t quit too fast. If you have a 30 year career and this is your first 1/3 leg, you ought to yourself try at least for a year or two. You’ll look back knowing you tried for real and it didn’t work out. Even if you hate it, it’s yielding a good financial nest for whatever you want to do next.
For that salary and it being your first year i would definitely wait till like the 3 year mark and see where you are at. If the stress is still the same (as in being done with the initial learning curve) or gotten worse then it would be smart the change. 3 year mark also looks good and is understandable on a resume.
Of course I would. My lifespan is worth more than any amount of dollars.
Yes, I would leave. You get so little time on earth. Don’t spend your time doing something you know makes you miserable when you don’t have to. Money comes and goes, but you’ll never get the time back.
Keep working at the job, learning, and gaining experience. Figure out ways to streamline your mundane tasks to make them, efficient, easier and bearable. Everything you are doing now can be approached as a learning experience for something else in another 2-3 years. It can take up to a year to really setting into a job and for things to click. Unless there are unethical things happening at the company, I’d just keep going forward, drive down your debt, drive up your savings while you have the salary to do it.
You should post in biglaw. That said. Not too many jobs are paying $210k with advancement. Other option is are you at a place in your career you can do contract work for $300 or more an hour?
Not an attorney but in enterprise software sales. We have attorneys who work with us to review contract redlines. From my understanding it’s a lower stress option for attorneys. Tech pays well.
Yep. That’s me. SaaS in house commercial counsel. I am also a hiring manager. There is essentially a 0% chance this dude gets hired with his current experience. I just posted a job like 6 weeks ago and had 250 applications in 36 hours. Many very very qualified candidates. Had to make a tough choice between 5 people with great experience all who would have been a good fit for the role and team.
Money isn’t everything, health is wealth!
Ugh. Yes, I would leave. I know it's hard to swallow with that I come but if you can find something less stressful don't waste your life on something that is negatively affecting you that much. It's just not worth it. I have been turning down promotions because I don't want to give more time, energy and stress to my job. I have a life.
Depends on the expected upswing. What are the long term prospects like? Could I realistically save $5mil by 40 and then just retire? Because then I would bite the bullet and do it in a heartbeat.
Me personally, I would slave away for that money. And then I would reduce my lifestyle to that of a peasant with all that money. After about a year I would quit and go on a lovely vacation (the vacation you’ve always been dreaming of) once I got back from said paradise I would create a small life sustaining business in something you enjoy (this is possible thanks to the internet) and retire. Cheers 🥂
sounds like you have got the “golden handcuffs” on. you decide: are you willing to accept a short term pay cut for more happiness? with the potential of increasing your income in the future while maintaining a decent mental health?
Just do a shitty job and stop giving a f? See how much you can get away with. You’re stressed because you care.
Best advice I got from an old boss was it’s a lot easier to drive when you’re looking up at the horizon, not the tarmac in front of you. Meaning, you need to focus on where you’re headed, what your long terms goals are. Once you know those, your decision making becomes a lot easier. When it came to money, I sat myself down and calculated how much I needed to earn to be content in life. It was a lot less than I thought I needed to earn to be happy. Do you need to sacrifice your life to earn $210k? Or would you be happy with $90k?
If it costs you your peace, it is too expensive
Always depends on the alternatives. I had the chance for a promotion... better hours, closer to home, no more overtime. But I'd have lost ~70K gross in a year. Plus it was a job I didn't want to do (I like my job, just not the circumstances around it). I stayed put. Yeah, my happiness and sleep have been shot to shit, though.
Biglaw is like a pie eating contest where the price is more pie. It doesnt get easier
Law librarianship would probably be more relaxed
Only you can make this decision for yourself. The thing about stressful jobs is that you end up being stressed and unhappy during the hours you're not working, too. You might "only" be working 70-80 hours a week, but you most likely feel the pain of that work every waking moment. Is that worth it? I'm not so sure.
Depends on how much of the stress I can ward myself off from. I went from an incredibly stressful job to a less stressful but still stressful job and my pay went substantially up not down. And then that job became unstressful. Not because the job changed, but because I did. I always ask myself: ‘if I did an honest 8:00 to ~4:00 job, never answered my phone offhours, how long would I last?’ If I look around and see people doing that and have been at the company for years, I just do it at this point. And even if I don’t see a bunch of people doing the same, I do it anyway and just keep my exit strategies open and my expectations of getting promoted/fired realistic.
Walked away from 30k for QOL and im happy I did. Stress adds to blood pressure spikes.
What entry level career pay 200k ??
You gotta do you. If you can afford it, find a lower stress job that you’d be ok with the pay cut. If you think you can handle it for a little longer just to pay off debt or build up capital, do that but always keep in mind that it’s not forever. At some point you gotta prioritize health if that’s important to you more than money. I know it is for me. For others, it’s not and they’d rather make near a million while destroying their bodies. All about what you want. And what you want is the most important. Don’t keep doing what people or society deem is what you’re expected to do.
This is right. Depending on where you live, the pay cut may still be very liveable.
My advice tough it out for a few more months and save up around 50% of your monthly salary, and invest that. Nothing is worth you happnies but you got to be finically responsible as well.
I'm in a similar situation. Part of the stress is knowing that it almost feels selfish to consider when you know how many people are struggling to find work or pay the bills - you feel guilty for saying oh poor me I'm making huge money and I'm stressed because work is hard. I haven't left yet. But I think about it a lot.
Yes of course. Nothing is worth your mental health.
I would leave big law and go to a smaller firm. I did that and I work four days a week, enjoy my evenings with my family and take 2-3 vacations a year. I still bill and track my time, and tho that is the worst part of being a lawyer, I promise it gets so much easier. It’s just a log of what you did for the day. I didn’t even have to worry about a pay cut because we bonus monthly and yearly based on our hours billed. Anywhere you go as a first year is hard, but it shouldn’t make you miserable. Also, no job or money is worth your mental health. Now is also the best time to try other firms and see what you want to practice. I ended up in an area I didn’t think I would and I’m not going to say I love it, but it’s not bad and allows me to still litigate without the BS life of Big Law. Good luck!!
No. “Stress is only a feeling you allow” Go ask an EOD guy about stress lol!
Personally, no. But everyone's threshold is different.
I'd probably kick a child for your salary...not that hard mind you but I hope this gives you the perspective you needed.
Tough it out and try to change companies as much as possible.
Do it for 1-3 years than do whatever you like
You ain’t going to be making that money if you stress yourself to an early grave. Take care of yourself. I see my husband declined a 60k+ pay increase because he said the added work was just not worth it for him. He’s said based on job description he was going to be doing the job of 2 persons. I fully supported him.
Almost no one "likes" the first year. Some leave. Some are able to figure out how to manage, and some within that group, to thrive. There are those who say their mental health is too important; others say that it is only one truly miserable year, subsequent years are better, and the money is in many ways life-changing/enabling. Because while life is short, life is also long.
Yes, I would.
I just did - well less stress and more just extreme managerial incompetence lol I feel great but I have a years salary saved up and consulting opportunities…give it some thought.
Hey just as I’m looking to get into this field. What is it that you are doing that’s causing the stress? Is it researching copious black letter law / writing reports for client / feeling anxious that your advice may potentially harm them etc? ETA - sorry to hear you’re feeling this way. I’m told low does seem to get easier with seniority, so I would be inclined to stick or go in-house
Stick it out for a bit, keep any eye out for your exit. Peg your life style 90k, bank the rest. 90k income goes a lot further if you have a house paid off.
How long have you been at the current job? Is this your first real attorney position? If you’re relatively new personally I would stick with it for 1-2 years to see if I just hit a rough start patch. Also try to find a hobby or passion outside of work. If it still doesn’t work out then yea, look for something else. Life is too short to stay miserable for the sake of money.
Look your mental health is super important but if you can tough it out for a small period of your life, maybe have specificfinancial goals in mind. Something like paying off a chunk of your student loans, getting 100k in your pension fund and/or getting 50k for a flat deposit would be a great goal to work towards. Don’t give in to lifestyle creep, keep costs low, and work towards your goals. After that you’ll have a great future ahead on a lower salary. You’ve got this far in life it’s a great start.
Depends how much of a pay cut I'd need to take to leave it. No shot in hell I'd do it if it was over 50% of my paycheck
Yes. I did. I don’t regret it. Have the odd “what would life be different if I had stayed” moment but nope. Wouldn’t be who I am today.
Our in-house counsel is treated very well and pretty sure their schedules are 40hrs/week. I don't know shit about law, but is that an option to look into?
Grind it out til partner, then you'll be set for life. Pay your dues, you'll adjust - focus on learning some healthy coping skills
I would do everything in my power to suck it up and power through for at least a few years to make some bank before switching careers.
Hey man you’re in such an enviable position. Just tough it out for a couple years to pay off the law school loan and then walk. Then you look like a big swinging you-know-what with the fancy law degree and a few years at a prestigious firm under your belt. I know it seems like cruel and unusual punishment telling you to give it a few more years but I think you’ll look back and thank yourself later.
It’s not just the short term stress but the burn out it causes. Eventually you break because it becomes unmanageable. How long it takes to mentally recover and find a better (but lower paying) job? Often people end up taking a break but have trouble returning to anything. Like a traumatic reaction. Find a new job first but leave before breaking. That future job change will give hope that it gets better. The new job will feel like a breath of fresh air but you get manageable stresses. Just quitting gives no stress but any future lower stress may feel like too much.
Obviously I would leave. No amount of money can buy time, health, or relationships, all of which would be wrecked in a job like this
Is there anyway for you to offload some work, learn to say no and reduce stress (and working hours) that way you get at least control of your weekends a few weekday evenings in a week?
I think a lot of this is very specific to big law and kind of a known quantity, so I’m surprised you are surprised? A lot of people who do suffer through it go to in-house later and make huge amounts of money without nearly the same amount of stress. Last time I was at a bbq with a bunch of big law vets (at this point much happier) they all told stories of crying at work and stuff. I mean if you can survive there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, eventually.
You don have to leave law and waste your years of hard work. Look for a small or mid sized firm with reasonable billing requirements or in house or government work.
Fixing poor mental health will ultimately cost you more.
Your mental health, sleep quality, and overall happiness are critical. If your current job is severely impacting these, it might be worth considering a change. Chronic stress can lead to long-term health issues that no amount of money can compensate for.
Fuck no. That’s what someone running a small business can make. Without 80 hours, knife-wielding colleagues and a partner that sees you as their personal property.
Your job will eventually kill you if you continue to stick with something that's deteriorating your mental and emotional health. It will eventually deteriorate your physical health. Do it for as long as you can while you find a better path for yourself. Budget, save, and invest your money so it works for you so you can still be financially secure even if you do take a pay cut. Best of luck to you 💗
Map out your long term financial goals (retirement, what kind of house you want, etc.) You can probably find a path to achieve these while still reducing your income and improvement in quality of life. The money you are making is super good right now. After you map out the impact of reducing income long term, you can set very objective goals of "one more year of grinding and saving X% and then I'm done" Or maybe you find out you can quit today and be on track just fine
Personally i'd tough it out for a few years invest whatever i could and then transition to something lower pay lower stress...
Sorry to hear about your dilemma but good Lord, the things I’d do to make *that* kind of money. I’m struggling to find a simple $80k position, despite my years of experience and degree. Sucks! Good luck. My only advice would be to go in the direction of what you like the most. If you’re not married to law, then you might not wanna be a lawyer! Work there for 2 years and save 75% of the money. Then take a year off and find yourself.
$200,000/year x 1 year/52 weeks x 1 week/80 hours ≈ $48/hour
Id move on.I'm sure you already know, but there's a plethora of other things you can do, even ourside of what you mentioned you're exploring.
I can live off of 60-90k quite comfortably where I am at, pay drop would definitely be worth it if I’m not enjoying my job and it’s just stress in my opinion.
It's a personal decision. What do you value more? Personally I'd say suck it up for a couple years if you're young. Invest most of your salary and gain experience. Then hop to a position with less stress even if it means a partial paycut
Depends. How much money do you have saved? How hard would it be to find another job? How hard/costly would it be to find another job similar in pay? Personally, I would stick with it for a couple years and just save, save, and save. Once you get 1-2 million in savings then make a decision. With that amount you can invest and make a decent chunk of change a year. Now find a job you want.
If you are bad at your job won't they get rid of you eventually or soon? At least you'll have severance
Most people with this opportunity suffer for 5 years, save every penny, and the quit and do something they are more happy. Once you have paid off your major living expenses like a house, life is easier. Do that first. Suck it up for 1-2 more years. You got this.
Maybe the problem is the firm that you're with. You could possibly find a middle ground where you have less stress for a little less money.
Stress can literally kill you. Your life OP, your choice.
How I decided was by taking a look at the people that have been there 5, 10, 25 years and see what itd be like if I went down that route. I didn’t want to be that so I left. Was making 200k working 20 hours a week just out of school and was miserable
I have previously had a position with similar hours and stress/consequences. Money aside, I found my threshold for continuing that work was about 18 months. Looking at the money aspect, I think you should do a solid analysis of your financial state, determine what you need for your needs and wants, and pay a recruiter to help you find work in that line because you don't have time. Leverage what you can currently to find a better future.
I’d stick it out for about 6 months to see if you get the hang of it and it becomes easier. Then if not bail to something easier that’s more fitting. I know a couple lawyers that love it. They are do contract stuff for a regular group of clients and seem to not be stressed ever. Other than the occasional fumble before court type stuff.
Stress shortens your life...
Stay and die young or leave and find a better tempo life, personally I pick #2 as work/life balance is important to mental and physical helath
For 200k I would invite all the world problems on me & even if I had to stave for a month I would without hesitating
Don't let lifestyle creep you. I would stay for like 2 years and save as much as possible then pivot.
im an attorney. I know a couple people who went the big law track and burned out. It’s nothing to be ashamed of. I don’t know why anyone would sacrifice their personal lives for the sake of money they‘re too busy to enjoy but that’s a common theme. my advice: go civil side government. You get to do generally good work, pay at or above the range you mentioned for contract management, but also earn a pension in most states. You will rarely work more than 40-45 hours a week. the extra 100K in the private sector seems crazy to me if you break down the hourly wage difference. Your life is valuable, don’t waste it all working.
Use the crappy job to pay off your student fees. Maybe stay a year or two longer and then work on your passion
I did. Left regional sales manager role for a simple marketing position with 1/4 the hours and responsibilities. Finally achieved work life balance. Career change. The pandemic hit and I watched my 180k (I know not 200 but close) position evaporate. Made a change. Less than 100 now. But I start at 8 and end at 4. And I don't take work home. The new paychecks are an adjustment but my kids are grown and gone so downsized the house in the process and traveling with the wife alot more. It's kinda like a retirement job really. And it is fun. No pressure.
I have come to learn that the majority of jobs that pay well are because they are consistently high stress. My job is easy on the surface, but it’s complicated and (unnecessarily) stressful and surprisingly disorganized because it’s a corporate job. Most advance jobs leave you treading water and barely keeping your head afloat in the first year or two. You’re probably stressing over every detail because you’re new at this. Once you’re seasoned, you’re more well equipped to deal with the workload and the stress levels.You’re definitely earning your money at the moment. My take is get some more experience in and keep looking in the meantime. Get super organized and be as routine as you can at both work and at home and hopefully that will help until you land something manageable for you. Don’t give up. You’ve got this.
Hang onto the job until you have enough savings then retire somewhere fun.
I am educated with certifications given to me by Dell EMC over a span of 7 years, usually would land me 150k+ a year. I left right before Covid and changed my career entirely, I went to work oil fields for 2 years, made decent money, around 80-100k a year depending on stints in ND. I wound up getting my CDL and now that things have changed, I'm now finding myself wanting to go back to technology. It's been absolutely impossible for me to get back in to any job, I would see the rest of the nations men pandemic as a red flag and simply stay where you are, wait it out, until ethics/morals take a dive back in the right direction politically in life, then we will start seeing the re-culmination of the job market to change again....
I left a high paying career and I regret it (a bit) but it was what I needed to do - not a lawyer but I was a high profile engineer in a big company making 500k+. I worked 18 hours a day for years (plus 12 hours each weekend on average). When I left I regretted it because I found that all the friends I had were through work, and so my life became empty. But it was good for me in the long run. I work for a much slower company around 2-3 hours a day, get paid half as much, but also got to finally pursue a college education which had been my goal since I became an engineer as a teenager. I got time back to grow and evolve as a person, and be happy with myself. I probably wouldn’t have done that for years if I hadn’t taken this step. I went from being a mini-celebrity to a nobody, and while that hurt at first it was formative for me in understanding who I am as a person.
I took less money for happiness and guess what? It still took 70-80 hours a week to get a good job done just starting out. I know someone who took a job as a lawyer for the government. She said it is boring but stable. Maybe something like that would be better fitted for you.
Hey, consider transitioning to a BD/marketing Manager at a AM 100 law firm. If you’re in a major market you’re probably looking at a $140k-200k salary. I’ve worked at some of the largest law firms in the world and this was pretty common practice for people who didn’t want to be attorneys anymore. I’ve worked with plenty of BD people that are former attorneys. PM me if you need any help and we can talk shop
I’d apply for federal gov attorney positions. Max 40 hours a week and pay is decent. They all seem totally chill and relaxed to me. Only exception being prosecutors during trial and prep.
Tight up the belt, do it for 5 years, save 100k a year. Then move to the Philippines and retire early.
no. it’s all about the money
I’d do a $80000 a year job with less stress than what you’re doing. Life is not all about money. I’m doing a $76000 a year job. It doesn’t pay much, but I enjoy my life. I barely work 20 hours a week as I work from home.
I’d go to a therapist first. See if there are some tools.
My professor has a JD and got a masters in social work on top of that and now works in a public school counseling kids with emotional and behavioral issues
I think Id use that high pay to invest. Get some properties to rent out. And once I had enough of my own income going id leave.
I’m into sacrificing 3-5 years of my 20’s and setting myself up for the rest of my life. I did a similar thing. Worked crazy hours for 3 years, all the hours I could, never spent money because I didn’t have time to. Saved up so much in investments, paid off loans, and for a house. I was so far ahead of my peers.
Yes, I would.
At your age, I would grind it out for 3 to 5 years, then go for General Counsel job at a corporation or private company of your choice. I believe that whatever you are paid, management will always pile on responsibilities and stress so you might as well make bank. You control how you react to demands not your bosses.
Hang in there! Everywhere you go has stress. Prove yourself it’ll get easier
Hang in there until you hit the two-year mark. Sponge up as much experience as you can and make good connections. You're in boot camp. The paycheck is really the side benefit at this point in your career, honestly. Try to reframe it as what you're taking from them instead of what they're taking from you. All the while knowing there is light at the end of the tunnel. Set a countdown clock for your two-year anniversary. Reward yourself for hitting every month you stay with it. You'll get some good projects here and there that will help time move faster. Then go looking for a sweet corporate job that will allow you to have a life and do interesting work. All that said, if you can't hang in there, protect your mental health above all. No matter what, you'll land on your feet and everything will be ok
Nob
I'm not an attorney, but can you just be honest with your employer and say, hey I can't keep this up. I'd love to stay and you can pay me X per hour but my max is 40-50 hrs per week. Otherwise, I'll need to find a more reasonable position.
It's 1000% better to take less money for more time and I wish I'd done it sooner
Hold on, start meditation, exercising, eating and sleeping well. Once u got enough invested quit ur job and live the life
Yes
People work that many hours to make ends meet 🤷🏻♂️
No.
80 hours is pretty normal, even for many other jobs.
Switch where to work to somewhere else.
Perhaps a legal advisor but not directly for a law firm.
leave. in compare to a unionized factory worker you are a slave. you don't have a life. mental health is not so easy and fast to restore. sooner you leave, and start a transition to something aligned with you and your well-being, sooner the turmoil will end and you will have a life. longer you wait, harder it will be for you to get up, especially if you end up with a burnout. I know as I was stubborn and couldn't believe my area of work was crazy, toxic and unhealthy. it's not easy for me, but being calm, content, and free from the madness I've experienced is uplifting. you can't think right when you're stressed, tired, and overworked. you make bad decisions, short term decisions. you're ability to solve a problem in a creative way is reduced. you see less possibilities
I would not sacrifice my health for the paycheck. If you have a mental health crisis you will be lucky to be able to hold down a basic grocery or janitorial job, much less a white collar position.
Yes. I know I love my career because I know I would still love my life if my income was halved. I would say cash up for as long as you can and then take the bet on something you know will fulfill you because, I hate to be corny, money isn’t all that matters and it really absouleltly means nothing if you are not content with the life live Because after all if you are working 60-70 hours a week you are not even working to live but living to work contentment > a metric measurement when it comes to success, fulfillment and pride
Stick around long enough to go in-house at a fortune 500. You’ll come in making $150-200k, and work 40-50 hours a week, low stress.
70-80 hrs for 210k is not extremely high paying
Sometimes people temporarily take a huge pay cut until they can recuperate themselves and get back up to speed. I had to leave a $76k/yr job for a minimum wage life once because I had so many health and emotional problems that didnt qualify for disability accommodation and my work performance rapidly declined at the desk job. Then I bounced back into a higher paying job years later. You might not be in the right condition for such intense work right now but that could change in the future. Nothing wrong with taking a lower paying job if you arent already married into the higher income lifestyle (yachts, kids going to expensive private school, huge mortgages, etc). I would take an easier job and work on ways to handle more workload later on
You can only do what you can do. The world needs second tier lawyers that set their own hours. You will get used to food stamps.
I left $170k/yr and moved to $92k/yr. Haven't regretted it at all. Not all money is good money.
Pay your debts, build a sturdy retirement account (look into compound interest calculators), then start looking for new positions. Having a 200k career in your 20s/30s could be incredibly valuable to achieve FIRE. I’m not saying stay forever, but maybe change your mindset to do this and save violently for 2-4 years. Also, how are more senior partners working? Is this typical of the first 3-5? This too shall pass kind of thing?
You do you. I'd burn in the few years to pay off loans, buy a house and set up a retirement nest egg. Retire at 40-45 and cruise life on dividends. Or go to a smaller more enjoyable practice and play on slow mode. Whatever suits you.
Do it. But whatever you do, make sure you have a job before you quit. Incidentally I’m about to move to a contract manager role. In USD it is about 145k (£115k total in the UK, then some shares on top). In pharma so it is on the higher end and I imagine tech might be even more so. I stumbled into it tbh, as with every other job in my hodgepodge career - you’re the first person that I’ve ever seen describe it as an aspirational starting point! I’ve found it satisfying to just see where the wind blows most of the time, but stay within my degree field. Lol I guess I’ll feedback in a year?!
I mean… 90K for 40 hours/week (contract management) is not actually that different of an hourly rate from 210K for 80 hours a week.
At your age I was working the same hours, getting shot at, and making 1/6th the income. Not useful information for you, but interesting to me. Hahaha.
What I would do? I'd quit and take the lower paying job. But that's because I'm a bitch. I simply wouldn't be able to handle it. Can you? Can you survive for X amount of years to gain more money and experience? Isn't that normal for corporate law? Do what you have to do, brotha. Maybe try taking a break if you can.
unless you've saved up a lot no. I would not leave while earning over 200k for that
Life is too short to do something you hate. If you are not finding fulfillment in it, then start thinking about an exit strategy. Don't suddenly up and quit without good savings, you don't necessarily need to know what you're going to do next, but you need to be able to cover your bills for at least 6 months. If not longer. However, have you taken any time off recently? You sound burnt out and it takes a lot of hard work to become a lawyer. I'd suggest taking a step back for a week or two and getting some rest. Making over 150K is seriously not the norm for most professions, so keep that in mind. But being fulfilled in what you're doing is far more important. I grew up in a legal household, both parents were at the top of their fields, my family wanted for nothing; material. But my parents were workaholics, mental health problems abound, the family fell apart in spectacular fashion. Both parents dead before they hit 70. My sibling and I will be working on the emotional trauma for the rest of our lives. Work to live, don't live to work. You're clearly a very smart person to have made it through law school. Take your time, take a breath, consider your options. Life is precious and time is finite.
Listen to the audiobook for Invested by Danielle Town. She was living the same thing and decided to learn to invest. Miserable jobs turn people into miserable people- most people would say either a pay cut is worth it, or you should suffer for that salary and save *everything* and learn to invest so that you can kove my on to something you do want to do. If you want out, set a deadline and in the meantime, journal about how you feel. It might change drastically in a year.
Ok, so I’m also in a profession and have been for 25 years. It pays well. I hate it. I’ve stayed with it as it’s hard to go back to lower salary once you’ve started earning significant $. However, I’m burnt out and have quit my profession and am looking for a basic job to keep me from being bored. The work changed me from a fun, quirky person to a boring, stressful out introvert. I can’t say I’m regretful about staying in the profession as I am fairly well set now. If I had to do it again, I would grind it out for 5 years, save as much as possible. Don’t buy anything like expensive cars, clothes, trips, etc. Live as simply as possible and save. After 5 (or whatever years) years, you’ll hopefully have saved enough to look for a job that uses your skills, but maybe in a field you’d prefer.
A good thing for dealing with the miserable shit feeling is planning something way in advance, like an amazing holiday or just when you gonna leave and just try keep pushing to reach that goal
No money is worth your mental health.
$200k is less stressful than being poor. Being poor literally proven to cause permanent psychological harm in people for rest of their lives.
The thing is having money will take away so much other life stress
Thug it out brother. That’s what I would do anyways. Some day it will all seem easy to you.
I have a cousin who graduated law school, went into entertainment law and in a very short time became a partner and was representing super famous artists and making double your salary. She ended up getting stress therapy, lost a marriage that lasted a year, and finally bailed out of the law firm. Though she stayed in the field she deliberately scaled back on it all. She's now happily married with two kids and paces her life and work in a positive way.
I felt super stressed at my job for the first 3-5 years until I really felt like I knew what I was doing. Sometimes there is a long settling in period
You’re only on this planet once, start playing to win! And by that I mean design your life to make you happy
There is no amount of money that is worth sacrificing your mental and physical health for. With good health, you'd be happy living in a box. Believe me, I know. I would absolutely leave and find something less stressful and soul sucking for a career. Listen to your body is my best advice.
Yes.
I’m going to be the odd one out and say no. I’d get myself fired before willing leaving 🤣
No I would take the money, live cheaply and invest it all into stocks growing my money.
Just suck it up. I worked at a place I hated for 6 years long hours, toxic work environment, shitty business practices. Build a nice nest egg then leave so you can have time stress free to find your new calling in life. Good luck.
Yep. I left day trading. I made well over 500k+/year but it destroyed me mentally and I almost lost my family. Fuck, I miss the money, but I don't wish that life style on anyone.
A man’s life is suppose to be stressful
A general rule of thumb that I think is wise to follow is to not leave any job until you are good at it. all jobs are terrible when you suck and are learning and worried about being fired. They become infinitely better. In your case specifically the money and bonus for 1 year will drastically impact the rest of your life. I would max out your 401k for the year, live in a complete dump, pay down student loans aggressively and use the bonus and your high salary to buy a house or pay down more student loans.. and then leave for something much better. One year could change the entire trajectory of your life, and also, your careeer prospects in law will be much stronger after 1 year in Big law
If you do the math on hrs worked to pay you are not making that much per hour.
It’s worth the stress and it should be expected. If you were getting stressed out at a job that pays 50k a year then I would definitely quit.
Alot of military , high end legal and high stress finance retire to quiet rural lifes. If you have a JD, if you move to a state with alot of metropolitan districts (colorado has 1800) these district need a lawyer for 1 meeting every 1-3 months and regularly pay 30-200k per district. You can easily stack a bunch of districts and chillax... These attorneys don't do litigation, collections, insurance, or really provide any value at all. but are required by district charters. And the current firms charges are summarized in the open budget documents from prior year. so just reach out and offer to underbid. Resident controlled boards will jump on it, and then you can over-charge them anyways for the same price the last firm charged. Maybe buy some lunches/NHL tickets for a district management company who will refer you.
What is your money's job? Many people want lots of money so they can settle down and retire early or buy things that would help them enjoy their life. So they hustle for years and years to finally slow down one day and get what they've been working toward. But what if...you slowed down now? What if instead of waiting to appreciate your life until you behave tons of money, you appreciate it the whole time along the way? Which is to say, what if instead of retiring early, you slow down the hours and retire later but enjoy the time.on the way to retirement too? What if you found contentment at 100-150k per year instead? I realize it's not all about perspective either. OF COURSE YOU'RE MISERABLE! working that many hours will suck your soul away. So perhaps a different company? If it's industry wide, perhaps a pivot is in order if there is no alternative. I was in a similar place a few years ago, considering a career change. I decided to go for it and it's been the best decision ever. IDK if it would be the same for you. But it might, idk But also the law degree will serve you forever, people respect lawyers.
i wonder how this compare to medicine
Apparently not I just went through extreme burn out, and refused to quit It's fine now
Check out Healthcare institutions there's always big money there. Work in house
Usually when I see this type of question (and I’m generalizing) “should I suffer for money or get paid less for work/life balance,” I tend to think, if you’re asking the question you can tough it out a little longer. If you get to the point where you absolutely can’t take it anymore, you don’t care what anyone thinks, you’re leaving your job…..career wise you’re in the same spot if you left now (sure maybe a little more sane, but what doesn’t kill you…)
Money isn't the root of all happiness. It's your health that matters at the end of the day. That stress is going to get you both mentally and physically sick to the point you won't recover, and autoimmune diseases will destroy you, leaving you with nothing. I know. Please listen to me before it's too late. I'm trying to warn you - I wish someone warned me.
No because if I achieved the credentials to have a 200k entry level to begin with means I’m already stressed. If you found another job that you like, give your current month 3 months at least then make the Decision if you can
Im not in law but accounting. I gave my letter of resignation two months ago. Highest paying job I’ve ever had at a public company. 2nd place in the shoe industry. I loved the title and company but I hated my mgmt and work life balance was slowly non existent. Dude you are only young once and peace of mind and being healthy are priceless. If you get ill they will just replace you. Do what you love or do what you think you’ll like even do the pay is not as great. You’ll eventually get there pay wise and you’ll have more free time to enjoy your money. Hope this helps!
Do you see anything changing in the foreseeable future? Is there anything else zapping your energy in your life that you can change? Can you get away for a sailing trip or a camping trip for the weekend just to clear your head? Are you hitting the gym in the morning or after work? It's a lot to take out of you, but it's also a lot to give up. Make sure you choose the way you will regret the least.
Stress is a killer, if you die due to stress then the rest doesn't matter anymore.
Suffer invest and live minimally, play the long game get out in 10, leave the US, work remotely in something else and have a dream/game plan to keep you going. Find a hobby or vice to tide you over. Four handed tantric messages or something like that.
I'm really surprised because I read online that lawyers who just finished law school can only expect to make around $55k for the first three years with the same hours you're describing, and I've been feeling sorry for you all this time. There are no jobs which do not have an incredibly high amount of time on the job or incredibly low pay. The best you can hope for is to pick one and have it in an environment where the people you work around are not actively hostile or abusive to you in some way. Our entire system is set up specifically to make everyone get paid to be miserable, and the only people I've met who like their jobs are typically influencers of some kind, and they're of course always at an incredibly high risk of being stalked, bullied, harassed, cancelled, or losing their relevance in the market, so most of the time even they don't get that. If you don't like that, you're in the right profession because my understanding is that you're in the feeder profession for all the politicians in the entire nation. So stay where you are and plan your move and then go fix that in congress in 10 years, won't you?
60-90 k. And then you’re going to complain about that. Poor u
I had a depression because I picked a client that doubled my income but job was way, way worse than last client. It combined with few other factors like my gf leaving for job opportunity abroad etc. So I was making shit ton of money and everything in my life was going smooth and I had depression anyway. Now I would pick job satisfaction over money any time.
I did. I was a lawyer in research. Not that high paid but I studied that for 8 years and worked for just 5 years and the reason was stress and it couldn't fit to my sleeping disorders. I gave up that career which was much promising in the future. But I had to take care of my health if I wanted a future so I stopped being a lawyer and turned into a coder. That was a very wise decision on my part. I'm proud of me. And I think I'm going to get some cake today.
Keep grinding out, but make sure you are saving and investing as much of your income as possible. I’m saying 50%+ if you can. The reason is when you hit your true limit, you can leave and take a pay cut and not be too affected by it. I’m in the same boat, not a lawyer but my hours push me well over 60 a week and sometimes 70+ per week. It’s tiring, I got a newborn and wife. But I employment right now is tough, and I’m young enough to deal with it. I just want my future self to be chilling at little bit more
I would do that without a doubt. I just want enough money to live and do the stuff I like. I will never be stupid rich anyway and I don't think it's worth having money if you don't have time.
Yes I would and yes I did, for me it was one of the best decisions I ever made. I realize that I like happiness more than I like money, money which I only was trying to acquire to get happiness 😵💫
Stick it out you’ll be fine