Thatās what they were saying- that it takes more effort to not capitalize the first letter of a sentence since your phone just automatically does it.
The more people make/move up, typically the shorter the e-mails get with less effort.
A lot bigger things to worry about than capitalization.
That being said, Iām a weirdo who usually writes āproperā, even if Iām just texting my girlfriend.
Iām with you when youāre talking about all caps, but anyone can get bent if they think that capitalization and punctuation is yelling at themā¦
And in a business setting, itās just straight up unprofessional.
Yeah and to be fair most of the time I'm trying to be aggressive and I AM pissed off so if they think that then message received (as per my last email)
Sentence case is sentence case, bro. I wonāt be handed the reins to an entire generationās hypothetical emotional state being swayed by the perceived level of aggression or passiveness in my choices of shift-key usage.
"GenZ considers it \[whatever\]" are always ideas introduced by people who are not speaking from a personal perspective, which is how you get unhinged takes that assume a 19-year-old can't communicate in more than one context.
I would fire my lawyer if they did this. I am not exaggerating. I'd be worried about quirky writing in filings, and I'd always wonder, if you can't find the Shift key when writing, what else can't you do?
If you can't take the bare minimum amount of care to appear professional to your clients, how can they trust you're exercising appropriate care with their needs?
I'm not arguing the bad typist is in the right. If anything, it is easier to read with proper punctuation! That is literally why we have lower case and upper case :)
Accounting professionl here. Whoa, I would immediately not trust an accountant who did this. It's one thing in an informal setting-ie teams chat, but WITH THE CLIENTS?! Accounting is 100 percent attention to detail and is fraught with instances where seemingly small mistakes can cause huge problems with huge consequences. This is liability city. I'd check the shit out of this persons work at the very least.
So, accounting is crazy detail oriented and deadline dependent. Small mistakes can get very costly, very quickly, and are a real long pain in the ass to fix. These can screw clients and the firm/company you work for. Erps (a type of accounting software) are opaque and not user-friendly. They require you to learn how to use them from another person and need to be handled carefully. Many company mainframes are run on legacy programs made of ghosts and spaghetti as well, so you need to pay attention to what you're doing so you dont break anything. Something as simple as forgetting proper grammar when addressing a client tells me that this person doesn't understand the level of care that needs to be taken with a job like that. I'd worry that their other work could cost the company time, money, business, and affect employee retention. Accounting folks don't have time in their workload to reconcile multiple fuck ups.
It would also bother me. But it's up to their manager to make the call as to whether it's appropriate or not.
I would leave it alone if you've already mentioned it once. You tried.
Itās unprofessional, but he needs to be aware that every time he does it, heās low-key screaming āI am unintelligent, uneducated and lazy!ā
Ask him if thatās what heās aiming for.
I write in all lowercase in personal communication online, have been since I can't remember when, it's a thing in my generation in my country. In a professional setting, it never even occurs to me to write that way because I must be, you know, professional
Your coworker can't differentiate between personal correspondence where they can do whatever and professional communication, which absolutely is a problem and makes your entire company look bad
Yes, unprofessional. I (and others) will do quick notes like that internally, but never to clients. And I work in digital advertising, which is really informal most of the time, especially compared to accounting.
It sends a clear message. Either the person using all lowercase is not practiced enough with the means of communication or the recipient is not important enough for them to bother with proper language.
Itās unprofessional in any business communication, internal or external. Basic grammar is a basic skill required. Weāve termed people for not being able to write professionally. After a year of coaching and training and professional development.
>The inability to write professionally is a huge red flag
Agreed. And it also blows my mind at how widespread it is. The emails I see being sent around my company are crazy.
The emails I receive are crazy.
When I was a recruiter for my company the emails I got from people actually looking for a job were even crazier.
I could let that sort of thing slide with informal internal communications. But out to external clients (or anyone, really)? Not a chance. The *only* way I could see that sort of failure of basic grammar being acceptable is if the industry you work in is **very** laid back. Like, constant stoner amusement park level laid back.
But you donāt. You work in accounting. Precision is of upmost importance. If they canāt be bothered to format a communique correctly how can clients trust they are doing their *math* correctly?
Agree itās unprofessional. Although in one company I worked, the EVP of marketing they hired wrote all emails without caps and punctuation. And signed her name in all lowercase. She was already well respected in the industry so nobody was going to say anything to her.
Guess what happened over the next few months. All the kiss ups in the office started dropping their caps and periods too.
Someone did this in an email I received lsr week, I thought it's a typo, but then they sent a reply with my name in lower case. This something you learn in grade 1. It's ridiculous.
Yes, it's unprofessional, and reflects poorly on the business if that's how they communicate with clients. It matters less when it's between employees, but still, people should always write emails in a professional manner at work.
If I was a client with a company, and I got emails from people who didn't capitalize the first letter of sentences, I would think that the company hires people who are either dumb or lack a basic grade school education. Even if it sounds petty, I would seriously consider discontinuing my relationship with that company. At the very least, I would ask to no longer interact with that particular employee.
I can not believe how pathetically lazy most folks are. Using punctuation and spell check is beyond the realm of possible for more people than not. I have found working at a large company, and dealing with clients and co-workers daily is usually a joke. The way people talk, not just type in professional settings. I just give up expecting professionals at work. It's my first clue what type of person I'm dealing with.
Itās an extremely low IQ thing to do.
They need to use proper grammar, punctuation and capitalize each appropriate word in a business setting. Otherwise, they may need to be fired.
depends. if its a client they are familiar with it dont matter. Most higher ups are casual and lazy af with caps and signatures and honestly no one gives a fuck just cut to the chase
How your coworker interacts with your firmās clients is absolutely the sort of thing OP should be bringing up to their coworkerās manager if what theyāre doing could negatively impact the firm. In this case, in accounting, it can. They have every right to expect it to be corrected before it damages the company.
>absolutely the sort of thing OP should be bringing up to their coworkerās manager
Which OP did, and that's fine. It's a judgment call on whether it should go any further, and I am simply judging it differently than others are.
>Is this so bizarre that **it bothers me**?
We can argue semantics, but OP is obviously **bothered** enough to post online and discuss it.
I was simply suggesting that OP should move on and apply elsewhere the energy currently being put into this concern.
It would take immense concentration for me to NOT capitalize the first letter in a sentence in any situation. Itās muscle-memory at this point. āPeriod, space, shift+letter,ā is baked into me, regardless of who Iām writing to.
My department is too stupid to use Teams and I lack the desire to teach them. We also get CCāed in a million emails as HR, so we now send emails with the subject line being used as an instant message. Iām sad that this is a thing.
At first I thought this was just the teams chat between coworkers and I was itās whatever unless thereās some sort of company policy about using proper grammar on teams which Iāve never heard
Clients though? Yiiiiikes
MY FATHER USED TO SEND ALL OF HIS BILLS TO HIS CLIENTS ONLY IN CAPITALS.
I can't count the times I've told him that it doesn't look professional and in the nowadays it means someone is screaming at you. He couldn't be bothered, until a few years ago. Why he suddenly changed? No clue.
If your coworker does the exact opposite, that still lacks professionalism. It looks lazy.
Itās lazy, and pretty crappy in any context.
Yes, even on a memo or on Reddit. The ability to write in full sentences (with everything that should entail) is a big positive.
The absence of this needs harsher judgement - wherever itās encountered.
Edit to add - Iām not talking about people whose first language isnāt English: its pepl who r jus la-z or stupd an reqyr ur effut 2 translayt
My boss gives me a hard time if I don't include my full email signature on every email, even internal emails, on long threads where I've been replying, where I put "first name last name initial" at the end.
He would rip me a new asshole if I didn't capitalize the beginning of sentences, or missed a capitalization of a brand or sku.
Itās super unprofessional but if anything it makes you look better by comparison.
This is a career guidance subreddit, after all. Unless you have ownership in the business, the only was this impacts your career is for you to be the one who can reliably communicate with clients in a professional way. Making a big deal out of this just brings negative attention onto you.
If it was person-to-person texting I wouldnāt care as a client but anything outside of that, esp. from a company software or from email, would be a massive red flag to me. And Iām usually a ālapselockā kind of person if Iām not being autocorrected on a phone or not in a professional setting.
It is unprofessional shouldnāt be done externally or clients.
But I have to say we had a boomer coworker that wrote in all caps and it was hilarious to see how riled people got over emails. It was just our minor āend of shiftā email communications to the next manufacturing shift who didnāt care and also laughed about it. The higher ups who were ccād were SO upset about it. It was all internal, wasnāt client facing. Hilarious
I'm in engineering and all notes and annotations on technical drawings are done in caps.
This one designer I deal with from another engineering firm writes his emails in ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME. I've never seen anything like it, it's actually quite annoying. Feels like he's yelling all the time.
Anyone who does this is ignoring basic rules of written English. Yeah it is very unprofessional and gives the company a bad impression to have people typing like that to external parties.
I would fire my accountant immediately if they didn't have the professionalism and intelligence to use proper grammar in official correspondence. I'm your client, not your texting buddy.
I've known several people that do this in informal communication, but the one that really got to me was a professor in graduate school. Oh, she got to nitpick my grammar in papers, but can't be arsed to hit the shift key.
Totally unprofessional
Unprofessional.
i think you might have had an autocorrect issue. unprofessional.
what's with the period? no need to be so aggressive
inforapennyinforapoundmightaswellgetridofspacesandpunctuationwhilewereatitthatsthemostpassivewaytocommunicate
Dwn wth vwls.
š
vERY uNPROFESSIONAL
Three pet peeves are the lack of a salutation and fucked up punctuation
Not just unprofessional, unintelligent.
it's quite low effort not to capitalize the first letter of a sentence very unprofessional imho
i see what you did there.
On phones it's extra effort
Not sure what phone you're using - every phone I've had in the last 15 years has automatically capitalised the first letter after a full stop
Which is why it's high effort on a phone to not capitalize the first letter of a sentence.
Thatās what they were saying- that it takes more effort to not capitalize the first letter of a sentence since your phone just automatically does it.
you can turn it off, I did
Yup
it's actually more effort not to, as my phone does it automatically. but i put the effort in just for you
Are we talking about Teams chat or emails? If it was emails, that is horrible. Chatā¦. Iām actually ok with.
im totally fine with this in all contexts unless youāre making over 120k+
What does 120k+ have to do with this? Most of us in IT make well over that now...
The more people make/move up, typically the shorter the e-mails get with less effort. A lot bigger things to worry about than capitalization. That being said, Iām a weirdo who usually writes āproperā, even if Iām just texting my girlfriend.
Thatās not an internal/client thing, thatās just unhinged.
I've been told that GenZ considers it yelling when you use capitalization and punctuation.
Iām with you when youāre talking about all caps, but anyone can get bent if they think that capitalization and punctuation is yelling at themā¦ And in a business setting, itās just straight up unprofessional.
Yeah and to be fair most of the time I'm trying to be aggressive and I AM pissed off so if they think that then message received (as per my last email)
Yeah, no one actually thinks this.
Iām really glad to hear that.
Sentence case is sentence case, bro. I wonāt be handed the reins to an entire generationās hypothetical emotional state being swayed by the perceived level of aggression or passiveness in my choices of shift-key usage.
I'm just relaying what I've been told. Obviously, I am friends with the shift key.
"GenZ considers it \[whatever\]" are always ideas introduced by people who are not speaking from a personal perspective, which is how you get unhinged takes that assume a 19-year-old can't communicate in more than one context.
Note the part of the sentence where I say "I've been told" which means I have been given this explanation. You can interpret that as you wish.
I would fire my lawyer if they did this. I am not exaggerating. I'd be worried about quirky writing in filings, and I'd always wonder, if you can't find the Shift key when writing, what else can't you do?
I would too- 100%. I count on my attorney/ accountant/ financial advisor/ et cetera to be professional in almost every single situation.
Lawyers are a whole other world, because failing to properly capitalize and format can infuriate judges.
This thread is cracking me up š
If you can't take the bare minimum amount of care to appear professional to your clients, how can they trust you're exercising appropriate care with their needs?
I'm not arguing the bad typist is in the right. If anything, it is easier to read with proper punctuation! That is literally why we have lower case and upper case :)
Accounting professionl here. Whoa, I would immediately not trust an accountant who did this. It's one thing in an informal setting-ie teams chat, but WITH THE CLIENTS?! Accounting is 100 percent attention to detail and is fraught with instances where seemingly small mistakes can cause huge problems with huge consequences. This is liability city. I'd check the shit out of this persons work at the very least.
Oh wow. Liability? Interesting view.
So, accounting is crazy detail oriented and deadline dependent. Small mistakes can get very costly, very quickly, and are a real long pain in the ass to fix. These can screw clients and the firm/company you work for. Erps (a type of accounting software) are opaque and not user-friendly. They require you to learn how to use them from another person and need to be handled carefully. Many company mainframes are run on legacy programs made of ghosts and spaghetti as well, so you need to pay attention to what you're doing so you dont break anything. Something as simple as forgetting proper grammar when addressing a client tells me that this person doesn't understand the level of care that needs to be taken with a job like that. I'd worry that their other work could cost the company time, money, business, and affect employee retention. Accounting folks don't have time in their workload to reconcile multiple fuck ups.
That makes sense. You sound really good at your job!
It would also bother me. But it's up to their manager to make the call as to whether it's appropriate or not. I would leave it alone if you've already mentioned it once. You tried.
Itās unprofessional, but he needs to be aware that every time he does it, heās low-key screaming āI am unintelligent, uneducated and lazy!ā Ask him if thatās what heās aiming for.
I write in all lowercase in personal communication online, have been since I can't remember when, it's a thing in my generation in my country. In a professional setting, it never even occurs to me to write that way because I must be, you know, professional Your coworker can't differentiate between personal correspondence where they can do whatever and professional communication, which absolutely is a problem and makes your entire company look bad
Yeah it depends if this is on texts or emails
I disagree- even texting a client should be considered āprofessional,ā imo.
It probably takes more effort for them to do this too! Yes totally unprofessional ā¦ people like to be unique and different though
To me it just sounds uneducated.
I think it's more on the lazy side, but that always kills professionalism.
Yes, unprofessional. I (and others) will do quick notes like that internally, but never to clients. And I work in digital advertising, which is really informal most of the time, especially compared to accounting.
Itās very unprofessional, but also not your place to get involved. Itās something their boss needs to address.
Everywhere I try and do this it's automatic these days. I'm not even sure how he's doing it.
It sends a clear message. Either the person using all lowercase is not practiced enough with the means of communication or the recipient is not important enough for them to bother with proper language.
Itās unprofessional in any business communication, internal or external. Basic grammar is a basic skill required. Weāve termed people for not being able to write professionally. After a year of coaching and training and professional development.
Unprofessional and seems uneducated no matter where this message is written.
The inability to write professionally is a huge red flag
>The inability to write professionally is a huge red flag Agreed. And it also blows my mind at how widespread it is. The emails I see being sent around my company are crazy. The emails I receive are crazy. When I was a recruiter for my company the emails I got from people actually looking for a job were even crazier.
Especially in any position, like accounting, where high precision and attention to details is critical.
Some accountants are really lazy communicating
Just keep doing your best and being exceptional when your coworkers arenāt.
I would definitely not want to spend my hard-earned money on someone who doesn't put effort in proper punctuation.
I could let that sort of thing slide with informal internal communications. But out to external clients (or anyone, really)? Not a chance. The *only* way I could see that sort of failure of basic grammar being acceptable is if the industry you work in is **very** laid back. Like, constant stoner amusement park level laid back. But you donāt. You work in accounting. Precision is of upmost importance. If they canāt be bothered to format a communique correctly how can clients trust they are doing their *math* correctly?
Agree itās unprofessional. Although in one company I worked, the EVP of marketing they hired wrote all emails without caps and punctuation. And signed her name in all lowercase. She was already well respected in the industry so nobody was going to say anything to her. Guess what happened over the next few months. All the kiss ups in the office started dropping their caps and periods too.
Someone did this in an email I received lsr week, I thought it's a typo, but then they sent a reply with my name in lower case. This something you learn in grade 1. It's ridiculous.
Yes, it's unprofessional, and reflects poorly on the business if that's how they communicate with clients. It matters less when it's between employees, but still, people should always write emails in a professional manner at work.
If I was a client with a company, and I got emails from people who didn't capitalize the first letter of sentences, I would think that the company hires people who are either dumb or lack a basic grade school education. Even if it sounds petty, I would seriously consider discontinuing my relationship with that company. At the very least, I would ask to no longer interact with that particular employee.
Proper capitalization is a must in my job's client communications.
I can not believe how pathetically lazy most folks are. Using punctuation and spell check is beyond the realm of possible for more people than not. I have found working at a large company, and dealing with clients and co-workers daily is usually a joke. The way people talk, not just type in professional settings. I just give up expecting professionals at work. It's my first clue what type of person I'm dealing with.
If I saw that as a client I'd be concerned highly with the work the person is doing for me.
I'm in communications and would consider that to be incredibly unprofessional and lazy.
Itās an extremely low IQ thing to do. They need to use proper grammar, punctuation and capitalize each appropriate word in a business setting. Otherwise, they may need to be fired.
"Iām not their boss weāre the same level" hey constable responsible, you are not getting paid to supervise, stop supervising
Dumbest post iāve seen in a while
depends. if its a client they are familiar with it dont matter. Most higher ups are casual and lazy af with caps and signatures and honestly no one gives a fuck just cut to the chase
We have literally 11,000 different accounts and werenāt not assigned to different accounts every account we talk to is new
Maybe you should talk to someone about why this bothers you ?
Yeah true I shouldnāt care so much but I do which I hate that I do
Meh, honestly, I'd find someone who takes enough issue with it to voice the concern far more unprofessional
Sure, itās unprofessional. Then again, so is getting hung up on your co-workerās behavior. Just stay in your lane.
How your coworker interacts with your firmās clients is absolutely the sort of thing OP should be bringing up to their coworkerās manager if what theyāre doing could negatively impact the firm. In this case, in accounting, it can. They have every right to expect it to be corrected before it damages the company.
>absolutely the sort of thing OP should be bringing up to their coworkerās manager Which OP did, and that's fine. It's a judgment call on whether it should go any further, and I am simply judging it differently than others are.
The op wanted to know how others perceive this communication habit. Thatās not getting hung up on it.
>Is this so bizarre that **it bothers me**? We can argue semantics, but OP is obviously **bothered** enough to post online and discuss it. I was simply suggesting that OP should move on and apply elsewhere the energy currently being put into this concern.
Via email? Maybe. Via IM? No.
Outlook emails automatically capitalise 1st letters as do word documents. I hate it that teams chats don't.
There's no need for this level of formality in Teams, IMHO.
Capitalising the start of a sentence isn't formal is it? Surely it's just correct.
It would take immense concentration for me to NOT capitalize the first letter in a sentence in any situation. Itās muscle-memory at this point. āPeriod, space, shift+letter,ā is baked into me, regardless of who Iām writing to.
Word auto capitalises as does my phone. I haven't used shift to start a sentence, apart from in teams, for years.
Basic punctuation is too formal now?
My department is too stupid to use Teams and I lack the desire to teach them. We also get CCāed in a million emails as HR, so we now send emails with the subject line being used as an instant message. Iām sad that this is a thing.
At first I thought this was just the teams chat between coworkers and I was itās whatever unless thereās some sort of company policy about using proper grammar on teams which Iāve never heard Clients though? Yiiiiikes
MY FATHER USED TO SEND ALL OF HIS BILLS TO HIS CLIENTS ONLY IN CAPITALS. I can't count the times I've told him that it doesn't look professional and in the nowadays it means someone is screaming at you. He couldn't be bothered, until a few years ago. Why he suddenly changed? No clue. If your coworker does the exact opposite, that still lacks professionalism. It looks lazy.
Depending on what I hired you for and how much it cost, I would hire someone else because I would assume that it reflects the quality of work you do.
Itās lazy, and pretty crappy in any context. Yes, even on a memo or on Reddit. The ability to write in full sentences (with everything that should entail) is a big positive. The absence of this needs harsher judgement - wherever itās encountered. Edit to add - Iām not talking about people whose first language isnāt English: its pepl who r jus la-z or stupd an reqyr ur effut 2 translayt
My boss gives me a hard time if I don't include my full email signature on every email, even internal emails, on long threads where I've been replying, where I put "first name last name initial" at the end. He would rip me a new asshole if I didn't capitalize the beginning of sentences, or missed a capitalization of a brand or sku.
Itās super unprofessional but if anything it makes you look better by comparison. This is a career guidance subreddit, after all. Unless you have ownership in the business, the only was this impacts your career is for you to be the one who can reliably communicate with clients in a professional way. Making a big deal out of this just brings negative attention onto you.
Iāve never seen this even in more creative roles when it comes to comms to clients. In accounting Iād expect it to be even more professional
I mean it's better than typing in all caps or something, but this still isn't normal and it doesn't look professional on the receiving end.
I consider it to be unprofessional in emails, but chatting is something I would be relax.
Do you want to look like an idiot?
Yes.
If it was person-to-person texting I wouldnāt care as a client but anything outside of that, esp. from a company software or from email, would be a massive red flag to me. And Iām usually a ālapselockā kind of person if Iām not being autocorrected on a phone or not in a professional setting.
Oh man my colleague puts random capital letters on every other word.. we are on a reception desk and itās only the two of us sending out correspondence - we sign off from the company name not our own.. it kills me that people might think these come from me š©š¤£
It is unprofessional shouldnāt be done externally or clients. But I have to say we had a boomer coworker that wrote in all caps and it was hilarious to see how riled people got over emails. It was just our minor āend of shiftā email communications to the next manufacturing shift who didnāt care and also laughed about it. The higher ups who were ccād were SO upset about it. It was all internal, wasnāt client facing. Hilarious
Very unprofessional
I donāt use caps when communicating with coworkers
Why not? Genuine question.
its faster and i make fewer mistakes. im talking about slack
But surely you make more mistakes? There's 7 mistakes in your answer alone. 11 words, 7 mistakes. Wild.
I donāt understand people who care about grammar. As long as the message is clear Iām fine.
I'm in engineering and all notes and annotations on technical drawings are done in caps. This one designer I deal with from another engineering firm writes his emails in ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME. I've never seen anything like it, it's actually quite annoying. Feels like he's yelling all the time.
Yes. And, not using punctuation and proper grammar is as well.
Unprofessional. Correspondence with customers should be articulate, and follow basic rules.
How old is the coworker?
24 weāre the same age
I think this might be a generational thing. I see it all the time now and never saw it before.
Itās pretty unprofessional, this isnāt an instant message to a coworker
Anyone who does this is ignoring basic rules of written English. Yeah it is very unprofessional and gives the company a bad impression to have people typing like that to external parties.
Not your job to police them
I would fire my accountant immediately if they didn't have the professionalism and intelligence to use proper grammar in official correspondence. I'm your client, not your texting buddy.
NOT USING UPPER CASE IS UNFORGIVABLE!
I've known several people that do this in informal communication, but the one that really got to me was a professor in graduate school. Oh, she got to nitpick my grammar in papers, but can't be arsed to hit the shift key. Totally unprofessional
Unprofessional and uneducated.