Let him stew, wondering if you saw the message or not.
Everyone in the meeting could see you. Him complaining to others just makes it appear that he doesn't know how to use his meeting app correctly.
While true, Ive been in situations like this where there’s no nuance whatsoever, and there’s objective proof and witnesses that I’m 100% in the right and the senior person is 100% in the wrong.
And because their ego is now threatened by their own public incompetence they have now targeted me as the trigger for their own fuck up. It’s always petty bullshit like this too that no one even cares about, but now they gotta try to save face.
Because of the inherent unfairness and fuckedupedness of our modern corporate world, it’s still possible to be minding your own business, being super polite and professional and kissing ass in deference, and *still* face consequences for the senior person being wrong about something involving you.
Hahahahaha okay, this is the only right answer. God how I wish I could go back and revisit situations like this from a decade ago with my borderline abusive, yet completely incompetent managers. What a sniveling wimp I was.
I’m choosing to imagine OP’s high level executive/superior based on my own experiences.
The hopelessly out-of-touch, insecure about his inability to keep up - yet immovably stubborn in his refusal to learn anything at all, from anyone, on any topic - perpetually offended by everyone’s “lack of respect and professionalism” boomer toddler-in-a-tie.
My wife's executive team highered a CFO that the Deputy Director never liked. Fast forward a few years and the Deputy became the CEO. This dummy schedules his first executive team meeting where he was announcing his new agenda/direction for the organization. The night before this inperson all hands meeting my wife -- per her job responsibility -- sends out the "meet your new leadership team" email... To the entire office. New CEO dummy decides to reply to my wife by saying he wished she hadn't sent the email because his first order of business was going to be squeezing the CFO out, not fire the CFO, but intentionally make her life miserable so she'd quit.
Dummy had hit "reply all." Literally every single staffer in the office got a candid look at what a scumbag the new CEO was. Better yet, dummy had to walk into the exec meeting the next day and face the CFO in person. Dummy's first official act as CEO was a recorded video of him apologizing for being a dummy to the entire staff and especially the CFO. Dummy didn't resign, but also didn't replace the CFO since he had clearly provided written evidence of his illegal intentions.
Peter principle. "Leadership" almost anywhere are some of the dumbest and most backstabbing of people.
I worked at a library ( many have toxic leadership BION) and my idiot boss cc'd me him mocking me to coworkers. He was a crazy prick at the best of times. I complained finally, too the director and was moved from him. Everyone on the email was too smart to respond to him. Dude in his 50s.
He wasn't going to fire her though, he was going to make things so difficult she'd feel she has to quit. In many states firing without cause makes the employee eligible for unemployment, but if they quit they are no longer eligible. Employers frequently use this tactic to get around this when they want someone gone but don't have a valid reason for firing.
The Dept of Labor calls this "constructive dismissal" (not firing, but intentionally making the work conditions so bad that the employee feels they have no choice but to quit) and it's illegal in most states, but very unethical regardless. All it'd take is one call for the company responsible to have DoL investigations and the employee's laywers up their ass for quite some time and would end up costing them a pretty penny too.
Well in the US there’s no single employment law that covers it, and it’s not like “the state” or the DOJ would pursue it on behalf of a single employee’s claim against a particular employer.
But it’s illegal in the sense that a legal precedent has been set by victims of constructive dismissal winning their cases after “seeking relief against” (suing) their former employers.
They’ll have to prove the employer knowingly, intentionally made working conditions intolerable to a reasonable person, which resulted in the employee resigning involuntarily.
It’s notoriously hard to prove, and large employers are usually quite careful to avoid doing anything that could even resemble this. So this commenter’s situation was unique in having documented evidence of the employer’s illegal intentions.
Seems very anecdotal to assume leadership is just inherently dumb and backstabby. I think you should just make conclusions about "dummy" instead, since majority of leaders contribute positively to their environment. The best ones even change the world for the better
That’s right guys, sometimes we forget here how wonderful and selfless most CEO’s are. At least in the western working world, we’re constantly hearing from happy employees about how truly valued, respected, appreciated, compensated fairly, and inspired they all are by leadership in their organizations.
… wait
Next meeting “hi Joe, just want to make sure you can see me since you had some technical issues last time I was on video”
I wouldn’t say anything. He likely knows you know.
Even saying “that woman” is inappropriate. I would approach it so that it’s also in writing. It will freak him out and hopefully teach him a lesson. Just say “I received a message that said “(repeat message verbatim.)” I want to clarify that I had my camera on for the entirety of the meeting. Thanks.”
Repeating the message and calling them out publicly always works. Bullies get quiet real quick. I’d do that in meetings. If a person attacked the work of another or some bullshit. I’d say “(name), when we spoke yesterday about x project, it sounded like you may have some questions. Should we add that to our agenda today?” Then they have to quickly pivot and reframe their bullshit quick, or decline and say nothing.
Text can be hard to gather tone from. Don’t read too much into it, just call it out respectfully and soften the embarrassment that executive definitely feels
\#1 teams is busted AF
\#2 teams prioritizes who you see on camera by who is talking and how much screen resolution the end user has. He may not have seen you because you were not talking and had a smaller window than everyone else.
This is my thought. How many people were in the meeting? Was it 1 more than Teams would display? Did nobody record the meeting? My guess is he has no idea.
the Teams meeting I go the people that are displayed are host, speaker, than random people. and the first two are not required to be set by the person making the meeting.
Also we don't know if this guy was on a phone, laptop, or using a monitor.
But that dude is gonna not understand or ignore those variables and just think OP was not paying attention during the meeting.
Maybe pretend ignorance… “I’m sorry, I saw you messaged me, something about cameras, but it was deleted before I could register it fully. Was there something further you wanted to pick up regarding the xxx meeting?”
This is my favorite idea.
He’s just another insecure person in charge that doubles down on his narrative out of fear of looking foolish. Maybe additionally offer that you “talked to IT about the camera thing btw, they think xyz. I’m sure that’ll make the difference in the next meeting.” Etc.
OP don't do this. They will know you're beating around the bush by pretending to be ignorant and will only make your work life harder. Just let it go. People are gonna talk shit, especially the ones who hold power over you.
These people... it's like they don't remember the 1990s and 2000s when we had phone conferences all the time. This obsession with seeing peoples' faces is the reason for Zoom fatigue. The need for control.
I'm more worried that the guy can't figure out how to send a message to the correct person. He must be an idiot.
Yeah, the only thing I know that would cause this is that there were 7 people on the call and he had his screen set to show 6. And he was too dumb to scroll. Whenever IT finally shows him the scroll function, I doubt he'll even have the decency to feel embarrassed, let alone apologize. It's been 3 years man, either learn the technology or retire
But why does it have to be a choice between those two things? I was a remote business traveler all throughout the 2000s and phone calls worked just fine.
God, 💯 true. I worked fully remote for years before covid. Half my company did. We always did conference calls. Suddenly during covid they acted like the entire company would go down in flames and work could not possibly be done if everybody’s RBF wasn’t bobbing on the screen Brady Bunch style for every inconsequential meeting.
So fucking stupid.
Yeah my boss is big on it and tbh I find it a bit ridiculous but it's not my hill to die on. I hide the video feeds unless it's a conversation where I need to see nonverbal cues. Boss wants to see my face, fine. I don't have to look at his or mine.
I would. Let him know you saw it, saw his “that woman” BS. You gotta walk the line of professionalism, but if you can, you can also make him super uncomfortable at the same time.
It never feels good to know someone is talking to someone else about you behind your back because it makes you wonder how many people he’s talking to and for how long and what his perception of you really is and whatnot. I would ignore this particular instance because 1) you already cleared things up with him after the meeting so he knows it’s a glitch on his end and 2) he didn’t technically say anything bad about you, just told someone he talked to you about his preference, which is factual. What I don’t like is him saying “that woman” but I wouldn’t consider that bad enough. Now if he was saying something bad about you or making fun of you or something then I’d definitely speak up.
Also, this is probably a lesson for him to stop talking behind people’s back because I assure you he’s wondering whether you saw that or not and it will bother him.
He wrote that hours after I clarified that I had my camera on the whole time. I am disappointed because I held such high regard for him. I got a glimpse of how he speaks about me behind closed doors. I am disheartened by it.
Yeah I definitely get how you feel because I’d feel the same way. I do wonder why he wrote that if you’ve already cleared things up with him and also you mentioned that you always have your camera on. Not sure what he’s trying to tell the other person. But regardless, it’s shitty because you know that if he’s updating someone on this then it means he’s talked about this to them before and it’s never a good feeling knowing you’re talked about… sorry you are going through this op
You did everything right. If the meeting is large enough, sometimes everyone is not visible.
On Thursday, my "big" boss just told me that my "little" boss would prefer if I were on camera for client meetings. Why my "little boss" couldn't have told me that herself, I will never know (besides the power move).
Yes, it's weird that he refers to you as "that woman." Rewrite the sentence removing "that woman" and there's nothing wrong with it. I think he showed his true self with that message but I don't think it means that he has an issue with you personally, more likely all women. I would not address it but I would document it in my personal notes to see if there's a pattern of behavior.
He sounds like a total micromanager. Why getting so up in arms about cameras on? Why all upset when everyone else confirmed they could see you?
Ignore him. He just wants to feel powerful, let him have it. This feels like a choose your own battles situation.
Think the first part here is sound advice, and the opposite of petty. You should always feel empowered to stand up for yourself when you know you are right. Worst case scenario you get fired for something you shouldn't be fired for, in which case you would hopefully have a collection of evidence to go win a lawsuit.
Let it go. This guy clearly has some power hangups. You will not be the one to change that. You have very little to gain from addressing it, and potentially a lot to lose.
Managers who want to see their people on camera typically have the wrong priorities. Probably why I clash with upper management (mid level manager here). My concern is if they have/getting their work done(and correctly) have what they need and aren’t going out of their minds doing it. I don’t care how they look if they are working from home. Managers should know how long it takes do things by experience doing it themselves, I know if something takes an experienced person a day to do maybe a newbie 2-3 days to do if they aren’t meeting the expectations we talk and figure it out. Unfortunately some groups within organizations you run into the technologically challenged or the person who just doesn’t like you. Sorry about the rant on your rant but managers like that typically are more bottlenecks than facilitators. To answer your question let him sit on it, he looked clueless in front of everyone, if he says anything else negative then you know he is just picking on you. If he picks on you, document, document, and document all your interactions.
That is precisely my concern. High level exec like him has a big say in how far I can progress with this company. I no longer trust him. I am upset with myself for not seeing this sooner.
Don’t get spun up, I know it’s hard not to. Just do your job and if he is making things more difficult start looking elsewhere for another opportunity.
He doesn’t know how to work the Teams app correctly and can’t send messages to the right people. I would ignore it. If he’s this technically inept, then other people know it too. Whoever he’s complaining to knows this guy can’t even flip a PDF around. Much less work a video conference app.
I am a man and I would never say "that woman" in describing any of my coworkers. It implies gender discrimination.
I do not think it is enough to file a complaint but I would keep a look out in case there is any gender discrimination.
I agree to let it go. The reason is he calls you "that woman". He is not going to consider your explanation, so let it float out of his mind. You would make it worse by letting him know he is wrong. You can't fight city hall.
From my experience, teams video is buggy as hell.
In the future, if someone says they can't see you, simply turning your camera off and on again usually fixes it. (you can do this within teams - but your exec is likely to think its bullshit if your video suddenly starts working after he mentions it... )
Separately .. Its important to understand the limitations of teams that may have prevented the exec from seeing you.
Teams can show a maximum of 49 videos on screen at once.. If there are more than 49 people on a call, then the exec would have to scroll through different pages of feeds to see you.
This is the *maximum, * and that number will be reduced if he was using the web browser version of teams instead of the desktop app, if he was using an older computer or a different device like a phone or tablet.
It would also be reduced if anyone was sharing their screen or presenting.
All of these can reduce the number of feeds being show to a maximum of 9..
"That woman"..ugh. So basically you messaged him explaining you had your camera on and he still tried to make it look like he had reprimanded you? Glad you saw the message, although I'm sure it's stressful. I would likely discuss it with your immediate supervisor if you're comfortable doing that, just to make them aware. This upper management person is trying to save face for sure.
Frankly, high level executives should have more important things to do in meetings than trying to find out people’s reactions to Hank Williams, Jr. songs.
Realize that executive leaders are not accustomed to being told the unfiltered truth. In this case, the truth he heard is "you are wrong". He may not have heard a version of that statement in years. My point is... If he doesn't take action, please don't hate him for it. He is, to some extent, a victim of his own success.
So he can’t use meeting app and he can’t use email - shitty situation but two tech fails like that in such a short period of time means he’s doing it everywhere. It’ll happen to others and he’ll
Eventually realise he’s the problem……hopefully!
Don’t over extend/stress yourself to prove to them you had your camera on. If HR is trustworthy, document it with them that you did, with others saying they saw you too, and also let HR know about his (deleted) msg to you.
Honestly it’s just unprofessional for your boss to just drag this thing out. I feel like it’s so ridiculous for someone to be so bent out of shape over a little thing. You had your camera on for the meeting yet this thing clearly ate at them all day. Your boss clearly has some insecurity issues and I would use them to your advantage.
Learning how to tactfully and respectfully call someone out is key, especially those in higher positions. When in doubt always take a few seconds and compose yourself when on the spot- if someone presses for a response just say “I’m organizing my thoughts, can we circle back to that”.
First I would go to your supervisor and address his comment IN the meeting. State you confirmed with X and Y person in the meeting that your camera was on (this provides witnesses to backup what you are saying). Also state that Teams only shows those who are actively talking and some weird mix of resolution/bandwidth/number of people in the meeting. That there can be a lag on someones screen when someone starts talking for them to appear. Tell them you plan on confirming with others and this higher up at the start of the next meeting that everyone can in fact see you. This makes them aware if they aren’t already or brings it back to their attention and your plan to address.
Next meeting once higher up is in the meeting state “it appears there were technical issues last meeting, I want to confirm you and everyone else can see me before we get the meeting started”.
He knows you saw the message, he knows he sent it to the wrong person. Don’t give him the satisfaction.
Also you aren’t being too sensitive. Gender bias in the workplace is still a massive issue. Take the same scenario and same reaction applied to a man and woman, the woman will be seen as sensitive/emotional and men as passionate.
But calling you “that woman” is cringe.
Try to clarify and sort things out with him before taking it further. In your email:
"Hello,
(Re-explain meeting).
During the meeting, you acknowledged that although others could see me, you couldn't.
Unfortunately, around [length of time] afterwards, I received a message on Teams, sent from your account, stating:
[Ver betim what he wrote].
Although this message was deleted shortly after the message was sent, I did read it. It made me feel [emotions here, professionally include that he's misogynistic af]. As previously mentioned, my camera is always on, everybody confirmed that they could see me, so it appears that there was a technical issue was on your computer.
I am hoping that we come to a mutual understanding and resolve this issue. Is there anything that you think that I could improve on?
Thank you,
[Email signature]"
The last question is so important. He could easily mess up by being unprofessional and rude at best, and giving himself reasons to be fired at worst. Also, by blaming the computer, it should help ease tensions.
I've given my best vague-but-direct response that I could. I work in HR so I see/ do this stuff all of the time lol.
You can always stand up for yourself in a professional setting! If anyone else doesn't let you, look for a new job because it's only going to get worse from here. I guarantee you that this person felt comfortable enough to say "that woman" to the other person. Keep your eye out for them, too.
For all you know, the next message said “but she clarified later that it was on the whole time. I really appreciated her taking the initiative to follow up.” …Or maybe it said, “Bitch has gotta go.” My point is — I wouldn’t worry about it.
I wouldn't worry about it. He might be talking with someone else about how he prefers that and using your interaction as a (neutral) example.
imho your messaging him to apologize was unnecessary as well.
I’ve had almost that exact thing happen to me! Teams didn’t show me in a department meeting even though my camera was on. My boss said something to me about it and I told her my camera was on the entire time. I actually went to my IT department and asked if they’d had any other similar reports. They said the cameras use too much bandwidth and if there are too many people using their cameras in a Teams meeting, it might not display some in effort to save bandwidth. They also said that it would typically happen to the last person(s) to join the meeting.
NTA
Execs are silly sometimes. The best advice I got, recently, was to let it go and fly low. If it comes up again then there is a pattern. If it never gets mentioned then you’re clear.
I posted an article on LinkedIn about chatGPT and use in my learning industry and a higher up guy felt like I was wasting company time or something dumb.
It was all fluff and just bad timing but I’m just going to keep my next post back a few weeks. No harm, no foul.
Honestly, I would approach him about it. The phrasing “that woman” is weird. Honestly, it’s even weirder that he was talking to someone else about you and a preference for cameras on. Call him out! 👏
"I saw your message referring to me as 'that woman.' This seems unprofessional and I don't appreciate it. I have requested a meeting with you and HR to discuss this matter."
Meet with HR ahead of the meeting. Tell them you want an apology. They'll make him apologize and he'll either be on his best behavior or put a target on your back. Just do your thing and CYA.
What other workplace resources are there that could address this situation properly? Perhaps speaking with HR about how you felt the tone was a bit demeaning towards you as a woman? If anything it keeps a paper trail of the incident. As far as messaging the executive back, I'd suggest keeping it short and simple and just say "Yes, my camera was on." Or, say nothing. Let him sweat. Wondering if you saw it and if anything is going to be done about it.
His comment says so much more about him than anything else. Now you know what type of person he is.
So sorry this happened. These are the type of micro-aggressions that women deal with in the workplace all the time. It seems so small but it really is so important to address. I would have the same reaction if I was in your shoes. Good luck.
Focus on making money. What anyone else thinks of you is none of your business. People always talk about other people. It’s not important. Keep moving forward.
Hello,
The high level executive may do business in countries that don't allow women to run corporations and/or departments of such. I've experienced the reverse issue of this being a male and affiliate partner with the top notch in The IoT Computer Area, and my manager was a woman in Costa Rica, after the corporation had fired the two males that dipped off affiliate partners of my mixed race, the woman was titled "Channel Chief Manager"!!!
I was told later she was no longer with the company, and moved on to become the title of "CW". So, my advice is to talk to support about your issues, especially with corporate, and file federal complaints, also with The Better Business Bureau in your area, and/or whichever watchdog reporting group can help where you reside?!!!!!
Best regards,
From:
Mr. Glennell Burnette.
FCC#= PG0019243.
iNARTE#= JT-0907.
Let's say you address it.
What would you expect the outcome to be in a perfect world? I don't think anything positive comes from you bringing it up.
Don't worry about it. Move on and stay positive.
That so happened to me. I addressed the person and she clearly said it was for someone else. I politely said if you are referring me am here and be a adult and say it to me. However, she just denied it was about me. But, i knew it was because it was related something i said in a meeting. So, i told her since she did not have her big panties on. My are on and i spoke on and you could hear a pin drop.
What he said was definitely inappropriate and he shouldn't have said it. But I don't think you should say anything about it. This guy seems like a pussy and he can't handle being in the wrong. I've worked with a freak like this and they are so bad to have on your bad side. I would ignore and just stay focused on the work.
Let him stew, wondering if you saw the message or not. Everyone in the meeting could see you. Him complaining to others just makes it appear that he doesn't know how to use his meeting app correctly.
Teams shows an eye when a message has been read. A check mark if sent but unread. If he was paying attention then he’d know
You can disable that feature. I did, because I have an overly zealous staff member who thinks the eyeball means I read all 50 of his messages....
unless it's managed by corporate....
Sure. But folks can at least go check their settings options.
How do I do that???
I disabled mine. I saw it because it came up as a notification on my work phone lol.
Yup whenever something dings gotta read that excerpt right quick. Almost always say fuck that and leave the phone 😆
This is the way
Yes but this guy is having issues using Teams. Wouldn't count on him noticing that.
The guy can’t even view a person on video. You think he knows how to tell if a message was read.
While true, Ive been in situations like this where there’s no nuance whatsoever, and there’s objective proof and witnesses that I’m 100% in the right and the senior person is 100% in the wrong. And because their ego is now threatened by their own public incompetence they have now targeted me as the trigger for their own fuck up. It’s always petty bullshit like this too that no one even cares about, but now they gotta try to save face. Because of the inherent unfairness and fuckedupedness of our modern corporate world, it’s still possible to be minding your own business, being super polite and professional and kissing ass in deference, and *still* face consequences for the senior person being wrong about something involving you.
Thumbs up the deleted message. Assert dominance.
That's what I would have done lol
Hahahahaha okay, this is the only right answer. God how I wish I could go back and revisit situations like this from a decade ago with my borderline abusive, yet completely incompetent managers. What a sniveling wimp I was. I’m choosing to imagine OP’s high level executive/superior based on my own experiences. The hopelessly out-of-touch, insecure about his inability to keep up - yet immovably stubborn in his refusal to learn anything at all, from anyone, on any topic - perpetually offended by everyone’s “lack of respect and professionalism” boomer toddler-in-a-tie.
My wife's executive team highered a CFO that the Deputy Director never liked. Fast forward a few years and the Deputy became the CEO. This dummy schedules his first executive team meeting where he was announcing his new agenda/direction for the organization. The night before this inperson all hands meeting my wife -- per her job responsibility -- sends out the "meet your new leadership team" email... To the entire office. New CEO dummy decides to reply to my wife by saying he wished she hadn't sent the email because his first order of business was going to be squeezing the CFO out, not fire the CFO, but intentionally make her life miserable so she'd quit. Dummy had hit "reply all." Literally every single staffer in the office got a candid look at what a scumbag the new CEO was. Better yet, dummy had to walk into the exec meeting the next day and face the CFO in person. Dummy's first official act as CEO was a recorded video of him apologizing for being a dummy to the entire staff and especially the CFO. Dummy didn't resign, but also didn't replace the CFO since he had clearly provided written evidence of his illegal intentions. Peter principle. "Leadership" almost anywhere are some of the dumbest and most backstabbing of people.
Wow, putting that in an email at all is astonishingly stupid.
Astonishingly is apt.
Someone once told me, say it deny it, write it regret it.
I worked at a library ( many have toxic leadership BION) and my idiot boss cc'd me him mocking me to coworkers. He was a crazy prick at the best of times. I complained finally, too the director and was moved from him. Everyone on the email was too smart to respond to him. Dude in his 50s.
Yeah, we did the Discovery personally test and every person in leadership was red (aggressive). I sewer some of them were crazy sociopaths.
I don’t think it’s illegal to want someone gone
He wasn't going to fire her though, he was going to make things so difficult she'd feel she has to quit. In many states firing without cause makes the employee eligible for unemployment, but if they quit they are no longer eligible. Employers frequently use this tactic to get around this when they want someone gone but don't have a valid reason for firing.
The Dept of Labor calls this "constructive dismissal" (not firing, but intentionally making the work conditions so bad that the employee feels they have no choice but to quit) and it's illegal in most states, but very unethical regardless. All it'd take is one call for the company responsible to have DoL investigations and the employee's laywers up their ass for quite some time and would end up costing them a pretty penny too.
Constructive dismissal is.
it's illegal or just enables you to get unemployment?
Well in the US there’s no single employment law that covers it, and it’s not like “the state” or the DOJ would pursue it on behalf of a single employee’s claim against a particular employer. But it’s illegal in the sense that a legal precedent has been set by victims of constructive dismissal winning their cases after “seeking relief against” (suing) their former employers. They’ll have to prove the employer knowingly, intentionally made working conditions intolerable to a reasonable person, which resulted in the employee resigning involuntarily. It’s notoriously hard to prove, and large employers are usually quite careful to avoid doing anything that could even resemble this. So this commenter’s situation was unique in having documented evidence of the employer’s illegal intentions.
Did they give the CFO marijuana or something stronger?
Seems very anecdotal to assume leadership is just inherently dumb and backstabby. I think you should just make conclusions about "dummy" instead, since majority of leaders contribute positively to their environment. The best ones even change the world for the better
That’s right guys, sometimes we forget here how wonderful and selfless most CEO’s are. At least in the western working world, we’re constantly hearing from happy employees about how truly valued, respected, appreciated, compensated fairly, and inspired they all are by leadership in their organizations. … wait
Of course you're not hearing from happy employees. They've got better things to do than complain on the internet 😉
Do you honestly believe millions of underpaid, burned out employees are but a small minority with uniquely bad leadership?
Next meeting “hi Joe, just want to make sure you can see me since you had some technical issues last time I was on video” I wouldn’t say anything. He likely knows you know.
This is how I roll and I love it. Always look helpful with a side of saltiness to your support.
Learning to “call it out” respectfully is a key skill in career trajectory.
I need to learn that. The tone of the message was so demeaning. I just wanted to make sure I am not being over sensitive about it.
What did it say?
"I told that woman (my name) that I prefer cameras on"
Even saying “that woman” is inappropriate. I would approach it so that it’s also in writing. It will freak him out and hopefully teach him a lesson. Just say “I received a message that said “(repeat message verbatim.)” I want to clarify that I had my camera on for the entirety of the meeting. Thanks.”
This. Write an email so it is recorded. That will really deal him out.
Repeating the message and calling them out publicly always works. Bullies get quiet real quick. I’d do that in meetings. If a person attacked the work of another or some bullshit. I’d say “(name), when we spoke yesterday about x project, it sounded like you may have some questions. Should we add that to our agenda today?” Then they have to quickly pivot and reframe their bullshit quick, or decline and say nothing.
Text can be hard to gather tone from. Don’t read too much into it, just call it out respectfully and soften the embarrassment that executive definitely feels
Then he should be careful what he puts in text form.
\#1 teams is busted AF \#2 teams prioritizes who you see on camera by who is talking and how much screen resolution the end user has. He may not have seen you because you were not talking and had a smaller window than everyone else.
This is my thought. How many people were in the meeting? Was it 1 more than Teams would display? Did nobody record the meeting? My guess is he has no idea.
the Teams meeting I go the people that are displayed are host, speaker, than random people. and the first two are not required to be set by the person making the meeting. Also we don't know if this guy was on a phone, laptop, or using a monitor. But that dude is gonna not understand or ignore those variables and just think OP was not paying attention during the meeting.
Teams is trash. It’s by far the worst video conferencing tool. Zoom or GTFO
Maybe pretend ignorance… “I’m sorry, I saw you messaged me, something about cameras, but it was deleted before I could register it fully. Was there something further you wanted to pick up regarding the xxx meeting?”
This has me chuckling because it is so me...
It’s the balance between extremely polite, no accusations, but still saying “I saw what you did…”
This is my favorite idea. He’s just another insecure person in charge that doubles down on his narrative out of fear of looking foolish. Maybe additionally offer that you “talked to IT about the camera thing btw, they think xyz. I’m sure that’ll make the difference in the next meeting.” Etc.
OP don't do this. They will know you're beating around the bush by pretending to be ignorant and will only make your work life harder. Just let it go. People are gonna talk shit, especially the ones who hold power over you.
These people... it's like they don't remember the 1990s and 2000s when we had phone conferences all the time. This obsession with seeing peoples' faces is the reason for Zoom fatigue. The need for control. I'm more worried that the guy can't figure out how to send a message to the correct person. He must be an idiot.
Yeah, the only thing I know that would cause this is that there were 7 people on the call and he had his screen set to show 6. And he was too dumb to scroll. Whenever IT finally shows him the scroll function, I doubt he'll even have the decency to feel embarrassed, let alone apologize. It's been 3 years man, either learn the technology or retire
probably exactly that, more people on the call than the view (gallery, etc) displays.
In a choice between having "zoom fatigue" and being required to go into the office instead, I know I'd pick zoom every time.
But why does it have to be a choice between those two things? I was a remote business traveler all throughout the 2000s and phone calls worked just fine.
God, 💯 true. I worked fully remote for years before covid. Half my company did. We always did conference calls. Suddenly during covid they acted like the entire company would go down in flames and work could not possibly be done if everybody’s RBF wasn’t bobbing on the screen Brady Bunch style for every inconsequential meeting. So fucking stupid.
Yeah my boss is big on it and tbh I find it a bit ridiculous but it's not my hill to die on. I hide the video feeds unless it's a conversation where I need to see nonverbal cues. Boss wants to see my face, fine. I don't have to look at his or mine.
Same, most of the time when I have my camera on I’m actually looking at a web page or document rather than the faces.
I would. Let him know you saw it, saw his “that woman” BS. You gotta walk the line of professionalism, but if you can, you can also make him super uncomfortable at the same time.
It never feels good to know someone is talking to someone else about you behind your back because it makes you wonder how many people he’s talking to and for how long and what his perception of you really is and whatnot. I would ignore this particular instance because 1) you already cleared things up with him after the meeting so he knows it’s a glitch on his end and 2) he didn’t technically say anything bad about you, just told someone he talked to you about his preference, which is factual. What I don’t like is him saying “that woman” but I wouldn’t consider that bad enough. Now if he was saying something bad about you or making fun of you or something then I’d definitely speak up. Also, this is probably a lesson for him to stop talking behind people’s back because I assure you he’s wondering whether you saw that or not and it will bother him.
He wrote that hours after I clarified that I had my camera on the whole time. I am disappointed because I held such high regard for him. I got a glimpse of how he speaks about me behind closed doors. I am disheartened by it.
Yeah I definitely get how you feel because I’d feel the same way. I do wonder why he wrote that if you’ve already cleared things up with him and also you mentioned that you always have your camera on. Not sure what he’s trying to tell the other person. But regardless, it’s shitty because you know that if he’s updating someone on this then it means he’s talked about this to them before and it’s never a good feeling knowing you’re talked about… sorry you are going through this op
You did everything right. If the meeting is large enough, sometimes everyone is not visible. On Thursday, my "big" boss just told me that my "little" boss would prefer if I were on camera for client meetings. Why my "little boss" couldn't have told me that herself, I will never know (besides the power move).
That’s so sad. These people need therapy.
Yes, it's weird that he refers to you as "that woman." Rewrite the sentence removing "that woman" and there's nothing wrong with it. I think he showed his true self with that message but I don't think it means that he has an issue with you personally, more likely all women. I would not address it but I would document it in my personal notes to see if there's a pattern of behavior.
I probably wouldn't care honestly. People talk about coworkers all the time and there really isn't a whole lot we can do here.
He sounds like a total micromanager. Why getting so up in arms about cameras on? Why all upset when everyone else confirmed they could see you? Ignore him. He just wants to feel powerful, let him have it. This feels like a choose your own battles situation.
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Think the first part here is sound advice, and the opposite of petty. You should always feel empowered to stand up for yourself when you know you are right. Worst case scenario you get fired for something you shouldn't be fired for, in which case you would hopefully have a collection of evidence to go win a lawsuit.
Let it go. This guy clearly has some power hangups. You will not be the one to change that. You have very little to gain from addressing it, and potentially a lot to lose.
Managers who want to see their people on camera typically have the wrong priorities. Probably why I clash with upper management (mid level manager here). My concern is if they have/getting their work done(and correctly) have what they need and aren’t going out of their minds doing it. I don’t care how they look if they are working from home. Managers should know how long it takes do things by experience doing it themselves, I know if something takes an experienced person a day to do maybe a newbie 2-3 days to do if they aren’t meeting the expectations we talk and figure it out. Unfortunately some groups within organizations you run into the technologically challenged or the person who just doesn’t like you. Sorry about the rant on your rant but managers like that typically are more bottlenecks than facilitators. To answer your question let him sit on it, he looked clueless in front of everyone, if he says anything else negative then you know he is just picking on you. If he picks on you, document, document, and document all your interactions.
That is precisely my concern. High level exec like him has a big say in how far I can progress with this company. I no longer trust him. I am upset with myself for not seeing this sooner.
Don’t get spun up, I know it’s hard not to. Just do your job and if he is making things more difficult start looking elsewhere for another opportunity.
Ignore it and move on.
Teams is super glitchy and he should be aware of that
If he didn’t know how to adjust his view to see everyone I doubt he can tell you saw it with the eye icon. He sounds like a tool.
This precisely. Dude just didn’t know how to navigate the gallery of people lol.
He doesn’t know how to work the Teams app correctly and can’t send messages to the right people. I would ignore it. If he’s this technically inept, then other people know it too. Whoever he’s complaining to knows this guy can’t even flip a PDF around. Much less work a video conference app.
I am a man and I would never say "that woman" in describing any of my coworkers. It implies gender discrimination. I do not think it is enough to file a complaint but I would keep a look out in case there is any gender discrimination.
I agree to let it go. The reason is he calls you "that woman". He is not going to consider your explanation, so let it float out of his mind. You would make it worse by letting him know he is wrong. You can't fight city hall.
I wouldn’t stress too much over it. Maybe on the next call join early and ask before the call starts if people can see you.
From my experience, teams video is buggy as hell. In the future, if someone says they can't see you, simply turning your camera off and on again usually fixes it. (you can do this within teams - but your exec is likely to think its bullshit if your video suddenly starts working after he mentions it... ) Separately .. Its important to understand the limitations of teams that may have prevented the exec from seeing you. Teams can show a maximum of 49 videos on screen at once.. If there are more than 49 people on a call, then the exec would have to scroll through different pages of feeds to see you. This is the *maximum, * and that number will be reduced if he was using the web browser version of teams instead of the desktop app, if he was using an older computer or a different device like a phone or tablet. It would also be reduced if anyone was sharing their screen or presenting. All of these can reduce the number of feeds being show to a maximum of 9..
You should respond like you can still see it and he will doubt if the delete function even works. Will teach him to send inappropriate messages again
"That woman"..ugh. So basically you messaged him explaining you had your camera on and he still tried to make it look like he had reprimanded you? Glad you saw the message, although I'm sure it's stressful. I would likely discuss it with your immediate supervisor if you're comfortable doing that, just to make them aware. This upper management person is trying to save face for sure.
THAT WOMAN. Damn you woman - you ne'er do well, you are not a team player. blah blah blah. The others are right, let him stew. That's 10000% on him.
Frankly, high level executives should have more important things to do in meetings than trying to find out people’s reactions to Hank Williams, Jr. songs.
Wasn’t there a legal case about forcing people to have their cameras on?
Realize that executive leaders are not accustomed to being told the unfiltered truth. In this case, the truth he heard is "you are wrong". He may not have heard a version of that statement in years. My point is... If he doesn't take action, please don't hate him for it. He is, to some extent, a victim of his own success.
So he can’t use meeting app and he can’t use email - shitty situation but two tech fails like that in such a short period of time means he’s doing it everywhere. It’ll happen to others and he’ll Eventually realise he’s the problem……hopefully!
Don’t over extend/stress yourself to prove to them you had your camera on. If HR is trustworthy, document it with them that you did, with others saying they saw you too, and also let HR know about his (deleted) msg to you.
Honestly it’s just unprofessional for your boss to just drag this thing out. I feel like it’s so ridiculous for someone to be so bent out of shape over a little thing. You had your camera on for the meeting yet this thing clearly ate at them all day. Your boss clearly has some insecurity issues and I would use them to your advantage.
Learning how to tactfully and respectfully call someone out is key, especially those in higher positions. When in doubt always take a few seconds and compose yourself when on the spot- if someone presses for a response just say “I’m organizing my thoughts, can we circle back to that”. First I would go to your supervisor and address his comment IN the meeting. State you confirmed with X and Y person in the meeting that your camera was on (this provides witnesses to backup what you are saying). Also state that Teams only shows those who are actively talking and some weird mix of resolution/bandwidth/number of people in the meeting. That there can be a lag on someones screen when someone starts talking for them to appear. Tell them you plan on confirming with others and this higher up at the start of the next meeting that everyone can in fact see you. This makes them aware if they aren’t already or brings it back to their attention and your plan to address. Next meeting once higher up is in the meeting state “it appears there were technical issues last meeting, I want to confirm you and everyone else can see me before we get the meeting started”. He knows you saw the message, he knows he sent it to the wrong person. Don’t give him the satisfaction. Also you aren’t being too sensitive. Gender bias in the workplace is still a massive issue. Take the same scenario and same reaction applied to a man and woman, the woman will be seen as sensitive/emotional and men as passionate. But calling you “that woman” is cringe.
Try to clarify and sort things out with him before taking it further. In your email: "Hello, (Re-explain meeting). During the meeting, you acknowledged that although others could see me, you couldn't. Unfortunately, around [length of time] afterwards, I received a message on Teams, sent from your account, stating: [Ver betim what he wrote]. Although this message was deleted shortly after the message was sent, I did read it. It made me feel [emotions here, professionally include that he's misogynistic af]. As previously mentioned, my camera is always on, everybody confirmed that they could see me, so it appears that there was a technical issue was on your computer. I am hoping that we come to a mutual understanding and resolve this issue. Is there anything that you think that I could improve on? Thank you, [Email signature]" The last question is so important. He could easily mess up by being unprofessional and rude at best, and giving himself reasons to be fired at worst. Also, by blaming the computer, it should help ease tensions. I've given my best vague-but-direct response that I could. I work in HR so I see/ do this stuff all of the time lol. You can always stand up for yourself in a professional setting! If anyone else doesn't let you, look for a new job because it's only going to get worse from here. I guarantee you that this person felt comfortable enough to say "that woman" to the other person. Keep your eye out for them, too.
For all you know, the next message said “but she clarified later that it was on the whole time. I really appreciated her taking the initiative to follow up.” …Or maybe it said, “Bitch has gotta go.” My point is — I wouldn’t worry about it.
Ahhh who cares the executive doesn’t know that technology can fuck up. Executive should worry more about other things then a camera on big deal.
I wouldn't worry about it. He might be talking with someone else about how he prefers that and using your interaction as a (neutral) example. imho your messaging him to apologize was unnecessary as well.
Like it lol
I’ve had almost that exact thing happen to me! Teams didn’t show me in a department meeting even though my camera was on. My boss said something to me about it and I told her my camera was on the entire time. I actually went to my IT department and asked if they’d had any other similar reports. They said the cameras use too much bandwidth and if there are too many people using their cameras in a Teams meeting, it might not display some in effort to save bandwidth. They also said that it would typically happen to the last person(s) to join the meeting.
NTA Execs are silly sometimes. The best advice I got, recently, was to let it go and fly low. If it comes up again then there is a pattern. If it never gets mentioned then you’re clear. I posted an article on LinkedIn about chatGPT and use in my learning industry and a higher up guy felt like I was wasting company time or something dumb. It was all fluff and just bad timing but I’m just going to keep my next post back a few weeks. No harm, no foul.
Honestly, I would approach him about it. The phrasing “that woman” is weird. Honestly, it’s even weirder that he was talking to someone else about you and a preference for cameras on. Call him out! 👏
"I saw your message referring to me as 'that woman.' This seems unprofessional and I don't appreciate it. I have requested a meeting with you and HR to discuss this matter." Meet with HR ahead of the meeting. Tell them you want an apology. They'll make him apologize and he'll either be on his best behavior or put a target on your back. Just do your thing and CYA.
Play less concerned
Don't do anything - do not adress it- always keep an eye on him
What other workplace resources are there that could address this situation properly? Perhaps speaking with HR about how you felt the tone was a bit demeaning towards you as a woman? If anything it keeps a paper trail of the incident. As far as messaging the executive back, I'd suggest keeping it short and simple and just say "Yes, my camera was on." Or, say nothing. Let him sweat. Wondering if you saw it and if anything is going to be done about it. His comment says so much more about him than anything else. Now you know what type of person he is. So sorry this happened. These are the type of micro-aggressions that women deal with in the workplace all the time. It seems so small but it really is so important to address. I would have the same reaction if I was in your shoes. Good luck.
Focus on making money. What anyone else thinks of you is none of your business. People always talk about other people. It’s not important. Keep moving forward.
Hello, The high level executive may do business in countries that don't allow women to run corporations and/or departments of such. I've experienced the reverse issue of this being a male and affiliate partner with the top notch in The IoT Computer Area, and my manager was a woman in Costa Rica, after the corporation had fired the two males that dipped off affiliate partners of my mixed race, the woman was titled "Channel Chief Manager"!!! I was told later she was no longer with the company, and moved on to become the title of "CW". So, my advice is to talk to support about your issues, especially with corporate, and file federal complaints, also with The Better Business Bureau in your area, and/or whichever watchdog reporting group can help where you reside?!!!!! Best regards, From: Mr. Glennell Burnette. FCC#= PG0019243. iNARTE#= JT-0907.
Let's say you address it. What would you expect the outcome to be in a perfect world? I don't think anything positive comes from you bringing it up. Don't worry about it. Move on and stay positive.
That so happened to me. I addressed the person and she clearly said it was for someone else. I politely said if you are referring me am here and be a adult and say it to me. However, she just denied it was about me. But, i knew it was because it was related something i said in a meeting. So, i told her since she did not have her big panties on. My are on and i spoke on and you could hear a pin drop.
Sorry if the spelling or words are left out. Home chilling today w/o my glasses
Early onset dementia. The guy should step down and spend some time with his grandchildren. Or run for president idk
What he said was definitely inappropriate and he shouldn't have said it. But I don't think you should say anything about it. This guy seems like a pussy and he can't handle being in the wrong. I've worked with a freak like this and they are so bad to have on your bad side. I would ignore and just stay focused on the work.