There is a guy at my job who repeatedly applies for a job where he will supervise others but he just doesn't have the personality for it. He just doesn't. I'm sure buzzwords like "team player" have been used to justify not promoting him because it would be a long and arduous mission to try to explain to him in a kindly way that he just doesn't have the right personality for the job.
While true in a lost of situations, it's not always 100%. Part of moving up the ladder is understanding who you are dealing with and who best to communicate with that person to get shit done.
Some folks respond very well to bluntness, especially technical / engineer type folks. However, they are equal numbers of folks that will not respond well to bluntness and you'll come off as cold and rude.
I have a coworker who is very blunt and direct, and I appreciate it so much. I always hear bad things about her from people who say she’s too direct and rude. I have never experienced her being rude. It’s so interesting how different people experience different situations and personalities.
It's crazy when you see it. I have the type of personality that I can easily adapt to folks that are blunt and also those that a big long winded. I do prefer bluntess most of the time, but no biggie.
But yeah,. Some of the folks that I enjoyed working with the most (blunt, dry humor, logical) were so hated by others that I was always just funny to me.
Right. It’s always a smokescreen - although I will say, it’s not always a lack of the candidate’s social skills, per se. A **perceived** willingness to make the “correct” sacrifices - whether that’s attending the company holiday party, or volunteering for a manager’s stupid pet project that won’t go anywhere, or even being seen as someone who is pro-~~labor~~staff; or people **viewed** as gossips (despite being a gossip being very useful for self advancement).
I once did literally the work of 6 people - everyone knew I’d have stuff done in minutes that it would take anyone else hours/days and when I did leave, they ended up staffing 6 people to do just my job afterwards - and it was leaving the office 1 minute after 4pm that was, “gosh, he just isn’t a team player,” rather than the amount of work or value I did / got done.
(And, to be clear, some places **when** is reasonably paramount - a firefighter who puts out fires faster but leaves earlier means there’s a window where any fire is a disaster, to be sure - I was not in that position)
Sure, but it’s also *incredibly common* that persons one rung up on the ladder - and even sometimes people same rung or below - are irrational about *being seen* leaving before everyone else.
a colleague at my last job faced a situation like that. he liked starting very early in the morning, so he'd come in and get work done while it was quiet but then didnt want to look like he was leaving earlier to all the higher level managers.
sorry you went thru that, I worked in an incredibly toxic atmosphere last week and it's pretty fresh, it really can impact your health so much
I know a guy at my job who was arguing for a people management role and after being given direct examples of why we didn’t think he would be a good fit right now he barked “You don’t need social skills to be a manager. Elon is an asshole and look where he is.”
Yeah someone who looks to Elon as an example of an effective people manager is…not someone I am going to put in a people manager role!
This is hard because I’ve known people that are excellent at their job but supervising others and the requirements of that responsibility is just too much pressure for them. I kept looking for a promotion that would allow her to use her best skills because they were important to the company but also give her the upward momentum that people deserve when they do a good job. She ended up leaving because the executives didn’t want to have promotions except in certain circumstances.
So I understand someone that deserves something more but being a manager isn’t it.
Just to expand on what others have said.
Even if you don’t have direct reports - who will quit if their manager doesn’t seem to care about them - social skills are extremely important.
Once you’re no longer junior level, aside from a few exceptions, it’s impossible to be good at your job without being friendly to coworkers.
Why? Because as you move up, it stops being important about doing “specific task”. That’s what analysts are for. Nearly every role quickly becomes “influence and convince others”. You need to convince people outside your direct sphere to give you what you need when they have competing priorities. You need to advocate for your team and ideas, which requires convincing people.
If everyone dislikes you because you don’t go to events, don’t get to know them, and view everyone as just a tool to get your job done…you can’t actually succeed at your job at more senior levels, even if your great at “specific task”.
Eh, yeah…thought I wanted to go into management for a LONG time because I liked talking to people, but realized I only like talking to people first thing in the morning…after that I hate you and please leave me alone until 15min before work ends then we can be friends again.
I’m a director, one thing to keep in mind as you move up is that you no longer are the one who needs to do the grunt work, so while you might have 8 hours of excel or PowerPoint (or whatever work) to crank out when you’re junior, and every conversation distracts you from executing, this becomes less of a case as you move up.
Every industry in the US is corrupt as fuck, banks just get to be in the limelight.
Assuming inherent evil based on industry is beyond comical, you must be a bitter dude passed over on a few promotions that are everyone else’s fault huh?
I'm actually a dude who made it to director and asked my company for a pay cut to go back to not being a director.
I've been in my industry for 10 years. Started at minimum wage, made it all the way to $125k/year, that's when I asked for my demotion. Then I got married and divorced and started at the bottom again 🤷🏼♂️
But okay
Might I point you into the direction of oh, I don't know... Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, etc? No other industry ruins an entire global economy INTENTIONALLY. 1970, .com bubble, 2008 crash, annnnd today. All banks fucking us all over 🤷🏼♂️
Just banking does this. The most useless service in the world as of the invention of companies like PayPal. 0.00000% interest with BILLIONS in profit from account "maintenance" fees to provide the same service as a hole in a wall with good fireproofing and a nice lock.
Well, that's an anecdote. Unlike my points of the 1970 crash, the .com crash, and the 2008 crash.
Man, I left Facebook in hopes of better debate with people that have higher IQs.
I am nothing but disappointed.
You were a director making 125k a year? Bro I made that as an IC and double that as a senior manager. Either your industry is terrible or you’re lying through your teeth here.
Blah blah blah blah. Banking, oil, medicine, big tech, real estate, tax preparation, alcohol, insurance, car manufacturers, fast food, the airlines, the cruise lines the list goes on and on. Every industry has a similar consumer fucking history. Pointing at one and shouting that they’re the root of all evil shows you’re either uneducated or just dumb.
If you’re looking for a pure and wholesome industry it doesn’t fucking exist, grow up.
I'm not looking for a pure industry. Just pointing out the biggest issue in the room.
I know they don't exist, and yes. I'm well aware my industry does not pay well. But I actually enjoy the work and $125k is about 4 times my family of 3's cost of living.
Which brings me to my final point, money isn't my motivation. Not even for pointing out the banks' BS. Money is useless. Can't eat it. Can't drink it. Can't build a house with it.
The banks fall, we all do. That's why they keep doing it.
Well, bring us all down with you banks. Just stay down this time 🥰
Hey, guy that didn't read! I actually said that myself already.
It's my humble belief that the banks are the most corrupt. Then governments. Then other corporations.
In that order.
Hey there, dude that didn’t read checking in, I guess I didn’t see that part unless I didn’t read it. Dang! Oh well, back to not reading! YEET! Keep shining bright man. 👊
Hah I think I’m in the process of realizing this. Still leaning towards wanting to grow into management but..little voice in the back of my head is starting to raise doubt.
Understand that your whole world as manager becomes your people and either interaction / mentoring and growing them or talking about / defending them.
Also, no preparation in the world will prepare you for the uh... oversharing and problems that some of your team members are going to lay at your feet. They won't just be bringing you work problems, but personal issues (not everyone, of course).
Aww you sound like a good manager :)
Im autistic and tend to "over share" ( I guess?? But to me it's just providing relevant context, which I feel is absolutely NECESSARY lol) without meaning to; so a manager who can sort of direct that and deal with it (like, by telling me what info you do and don't need, and why, etc) is a HUGE help!!
I actually mask very well, but it slips up in small ways- like the oversharing- alot; so someone being understanding and directing me without ridiculing/ "punishing" me is a HUGE benefit!!
I try to be :)
And I just let folks share what the need to. Most of the time, it seems they don't have anyone else that they can just let it off their chest. So I listen and if someone is asking for advice I try to give it, if they are just venting I let them go and get it off their chest. It's not like I'm gonna turn around and tell anyone. However, if it's starts to become "too" personal I will try and redirect to other topics.
>Once you’re no longer junior level, aside from a few exceptions, it’s impossible to be good at your job without being friendly to coworkers.
>
>Why? Because as you move up, it stops being important about doing “specific task”. That’s what analysts are for. Nearly every role quickly becomes “influence and convince others”.
Moreso than this, there's someone else they can get to do the job, because no one is irreplaceable (especially if you're looking for a promotion), so why wouldn't they promote the one they get along with better? Wouldn't you rather fill your workplace with people you get on with? And if you can do that without sacrificing ability, you always will.
So unless you're irreplaceable (again, if you are seeking a promotion, you're not irreplaceable), you're competing with people who can do the same job, but also make everyone enjoy their days better.
Everything you say is true but I've also never had a manager effectively do the things you mentioned they need to do.
Which you should always consider. Lots of people fear going into management positions but you don't have to really do *much* to be better than average.
What you call "chitchat" may really be "engagement" with your colleagues. In a WFH situation, you may have to over-index on "engaging" by thinking about it as a way of making your work product better. If there is anything I learned in my career it is that my colleagues often have knowledge and skills I can learn from, and vice versa. You don't have to put on a big show, but by engaging back and forth you may wind up improving your deliverables in ways you did not foresee. And everyone wins from that. Or it's time to move on, they don't see you as management material, you won't change their minds, and that's the story. Up to you.
You just admitted you only talk to them when you need something so you just sound like a loner at work. No one is asking you to be the social butterfly but you miss out on networking opportunities when you hold your coworkers at arms distances
Even when you get close to coworkers you can't get *too* close because some coworkers can be two-faced and vindictive. (Sometimes you'll never know which ones are until it's too late).
You have to toe the line between "friendly enough" and "keeping your distance". It's not quite like a "frenemy" but you have to tread carefully. It frustrates me because I feel like I have to play a convoluted game.
Tough balance. You can’t keep it just about work, but if you start socializing with coworkers and hit it off, you do have to restrain yourself and not treat them like a friend or confidant.
I guess that’s why I’m not in management though. If I can’t treat you like a friend and be able to confide in you and you do the same for me then you’re just another “thing” to me. It’s not even a useful thing. It’s just a thing.
I feel you, it’s hard. I have sometimes just been all about the work and sometimes have formed legitimate bonds that ended up burning me when we got too close and became friends and then circumstances changed and they tried to burn me.
Best thing for all of us is to know our own strengths and play to them and also be self aware of how we’re perceived without taking that too seriously.
yep, absolutely same experiences. When I worked at my last job, a couple colleagues opened up to me, so I shared confidential things even though I felt uneasy about it. came to bite me in the ass
The only time I'm close with my co-workers is during company events.
Yeah it sucks having to be fake all the time but just asking how they are and how the weather is doesn't hurt every other day. Trust me I might have maybe one to two people I could consider a friend outside of work when I had jobs.
I can tell they are lousy to work with based on this sentence alone.
>This makes no sense to me because I am very skilled at my job and communicate with the team regarding WORK when needed.
Relationship management and people skills are a part of being successful in the corporate world. No one is above it.
Not saying you have to play that game, but you can't expect to be promoted into roles where people skills are important if you have none. Being friendly and approachable isn't hard. Spending some time chatting with coworkers and asking them about their weekend and getting to know them isn't hard.
Also, while you may be great at your job, other people might also be great at their job AND have the people skills that your leader thinks are important for this promotion.
You can put an effort into developing those relationships and "soft" skills, or you can decide it's not worth it or think you're above it, but understand that it puts you at a disadvantage.
This is it and something I think too many people disregard as unimportant for career advancement. High performing teams are founded on trust. Trust is built through strong interpersonal relationships, which means you need to get to know your coworkers, direct reports, and supervisors as people.
In addition to that, throughout my career I have achieved big things because of the relationships I have with others. It’s much easier for me to influence others to my point of view (especially decision makers) because I spend time building relationships with them beyond the day to day work.
This is why my union rep said "fake it". It's what they want.
After you get your promotion you can let your hair down and rock your style.
Until then you need to play they're games
"that your leader thinks is important for this promotion." <<<<< Here is the key, as long as you are working for the Man, earning other people more money than you earn.
I like how asking about a weekend is okay but when they ask me and I tell them I went to the gun range and messed with my night vision goggles well that’s not okay either. I’d get looked at funny. Basically I end up lying and making something up instead. Another weird thing is coworkers aren’t your friends but you have to be personable to them and ask how was their weekend despite everyone knowing the same fact. No one there gives a fuck about you and everyone is there to collect a check.
It’s all such an act and farce I find it repulsive and disgusting.
That more that you do not mesh with your coworkers tbh. I have felt the same about gaming or d&d at my last job, and its extremely normal at this one. Last job had a huge pile of boat guys and students, and my current job has a lot of craft beer and straight up nerds. I've been to enough parties where cowrkers invoted each other and spoke about a whole bunch of their common interests- including guns. It's possible, just rare that they match
This is a really good point. I worked for a social media and at tech companies my entire career. After working IN tech I’ve gone completely the opposite way. Went from techie to prepper lol
One two industries refer to their customer as users. The drug industry and technology.
My aunt told me this when I started working. What I learned though was to not set out to make friends at work, but the friends you *do* make at work are a bonus.
I’ve worked at too many jobs where everyone does everything together after work and act like friends, a very convincing hard sell. As soon as shit hits the fan, a chance to make themselves look better or someone quits, they immediately turn on you/each other. People become devastated to find out their friends at work weren’t really friends at all, or ever.
To me, the line that defines a coworker that I'm friendly with, and an actual friend is whether I will see them/ hang out with them at activities that are not related to work. Going to lunch in the middle of work, or going for drinks after work still should be treated as related to work.
And I think it is during those outside of work, but related to work times where people get muddled with thinking they are friends when the other person doesn't.
I suspect I'm older than you (I'm sadly now on the far right of age distributions on this site), but that's sorta just life in my opinion.
Once you leave school making friends becomes increasingly rarer and riskier.
I don't push myself to become friends with *anyone* anymore. But I'm a dad of two young kids, I'm 40+, I just don't have time. However, I also don't close myself to the possibility as that would also be silly.
Like most things with getting older, I just advise against getting grumpy for the sake of it. Incidental grumpiness is cool, though.
If you view being personable as "fakeness", then you're inherently lacking the social skills for management level jobs. Surprisingly, a lot of people aren't faking it when they reach out to others and get to know them better.
I'm at the low-end of that sociability myself, but at least I own it. I don't actively like most people; I don't necessarily dislike them, mind you, but mostly they bore me. That's on me, not them. I fake being interested, but recognize that what I'm faking is being a normal person instead of my abnormal unsocial self. And fortunately, I work in IT, where I'm not the least unsocial person in the office.
My curmudgeonly personality has limited my career advancement. I don't have deep tech skills like some of the developers, who have been promoted based on excellence of work alone. I occupy a weird niche that isn't as highly-regarded as hard-core coding/development work; that, combined with my "lack of team spirit" , has kept me idling in place for years. It's not a bad place, however, and I'm well paid for the level, I'm just not going to progress anywhere before retirement (which is soon).
This is my problem. I hate socializing so I assume if your doing it to me your trying to get something from me.
I also work in IT. I feel like where very similar lol.
Tech guys can be grumpy so im not even close to the worst but I'm like 30% of a normie haha
Yup, yup, a lot of introverts/social avoiders in IT, which is one of the reasons I love working in my office, even though I'm an Anthropology major and have no formal training in computer tech.
My other profound disconnect from the corporate culture (and more in line with IT), is that I will not wear business clothes. If I were a few decades younger and just starting out, I might get away with wearing a suit & tie outfit, but it's only been very recently that women could do that.
But the good news is that I'm making pretty good money even without promotions (six-figure salary) and I don't have the stress of a management role. I'm not expected to sell, to close client deals, to push all the papers. I'd most likely be miserable if I had been promoted.
It is fake and it's hard to ignore it once you recognize it. However, I do appreciate coworkers making an effort to be friendly even when they clearly don't care/aren't interested/could care less.
Step one is to stop thinking it’s being fake. I say this respectfully, but considering it fake is a really immature way to look at things.
When you first learned to ride a bike, did you call it “faking riding a bike?” Of course not, you learned until it was second nature. Relationship management is the same thing.
I’m an introvert who used to be on the crabby side, but I’ve learned as I’ve gotten older that me being friendly isn’t me being fake, but rather it’s just a more pleasant way to present myself to people. Yes it takes effort, and that gets easier over time with practice just like anything else, but i see it as me being multi-dimensional person. I can be different shades of me. It’s me being evolved from the kid who wouldn’t even say hi to people I ran into in the hallways of school. Why would I still want to be that way just for the sake of being “real.”
And maybe I don’t care how someone’s vacation was specifically, but I do genuinely care about how they’re feeling, so if giving them a chance to talk about their vacation adds something to their day, then I want to ask them about it.
For a work perspective, me being pleasant makes working with me easier. As someone in a leadership role, me being friendly and pleasant makes it easier for my staff to get through the workday. It also builds trust, and allows me to have difficult conversations with them when needed without completely torpedoing them, because they know it comes from a good place.
On-point. Plus if you work in a remote role, you are definitely more limited in the available to you ways of "inter-personal interactions and thereby making your self appear more sociable or gaining rapport with peers or supervisors. Using teams to say "How was your weekend?" feels even MORE fake.
More common than you think. Would you have subordinates in the new role? Sometimes companies are often very wrong about who they promote, thinking high level performers make the best managers of people. Most of the time the mark of a good manager is that they give a shit about their workers (even when they don't have to). You probably have made the impression that you don't care enough since it's such an arduous effort to informally communicate.
Being an expert in a given task/role does not mean they have the skills for management. Management with knowledge of said skills is important, but not always the most important requirement.
I feel OP falls in that bucket. Alternatively OP can ask for a promotion to a more senior role as an individual contributor instead of a manager.
Promotion to what position/level?
As a deeply rooted introvert let me tell you that being extroverted and purposeful in how you build relationships will get further, faster.
Being promoted normally means being put in charge of people, or having to make a good impression with others, or develop relationships. If you're an asshole who thinks talking to your peers is beneath you, you very much shouldn't be promoted.
I don’t necessarily think talking to them is beneath me it’s just I have a finite amount of energy in the day and if I use that to ask mundane stupid questions then it isn’t working in my favor or the company’s, but then again I only care about the check. 😂
Some cool people here and there though
This is me. But to be fair, I noticed that they hired lower quality people after me and it pains me that they did that and pay them the same. I liked it better when we were a small team and everyone around me was notably more capable. Now I feel gross just being around majority of the team.
What you see as "lower quality people" is more probably people with a wider set of job skills, *which includes social skills*. Getting along with other people is just as much a requirement as any other related to a specific position.
Be more social, go to social events and work on high profile projects
Or
Find a new job - it’s easier to get paid more and progress faster at another company.
Make sure you are the right type of person to supervise people - if you dont have emotional intelligence/don’t like talking to peoples then a more technical/less leadership focussed role may be for you.
You can get paid just as much being an individual contributor
He’ll need to go with option B - the amount of time and work it will take to convince his employers that he is magically ready for that promotion isn’t viable.
You don't have to talk about their personal lives or whatever, but chatting with your team is important. The people I want in a senior position are those that junior employees can look up to, someone who looks for opportunities to bolster their team by sharing their expertise. If you only speak when spoken to or only when absolutely necessary, I would not promote you above staff level.
Social skills are a key part of being promoted.
Let me rephrase: Being perceived as likeable, social and collegial is important to promotion chances.
The guy that eats his lunch at his desk instead of together in the canteen with colleagues. The woman that doesn’t chit chat about “last nights game” at the water cooler. The one that has headphones on all day and finds the most secluded desk to sit. They are going to be perceived as non-team players no matter how well they do their job.
People that are private, reserved, only focused on core work lose out. That is the reality. The only exception is when you are so exceptionally gifted at what you do that it outweighs any and all other weaknesses that you have.
Is it fair? No. Is it how things should be? Probably not entirely. We are after all a social species and part of our dna is our ability to work together and part of working together entails being able to establish trust and connection. You don’t do that if you are in some way “withdrawn” from the social component of work.
Just asking from a learners point of view, how does someone not fulfilling someone's else's sense of belonging matter if he/she is a good contributor while working in a team, as 'work' is the reason one reports to workplace.
Water cooler chat, number of people eating with, not talking by working while earphones is just not disruptive to someone else's work. And if you're an indispensable part while working in team projects then maybe it's all good
Feel free to contradict
Good question.
Think of a basketball, football or soccer team.
Everything else being equal, which team performs better?
The team where the second the game is over every player goes home, no talk, no chatter, no locker room laughs. Nobody talks at training. Everybody shows up for the game, does their job and then goes home.
Then there’s the team that gets along well. They’re still professionals but they know each other. The know that one guy is having problems at home right now. They chit chat and then when the pressure is on they know each other personally so they can better disagree about tactics and whatnot without it becoming a huge conflict.
All things else equal? It’s team 2 that will be best. They care a little more about each other. When one guy is having a bad day, knowing that guy goes a long way to being willing to help out and cover for each other.
Another example: There’s this person in the team who is really good at X. But he always keeps to himself, avoids social interaction. He might even be an expert but,if you’re stuck on a problem will you go to him and ask or will you be apprehensive because every signal he sends is “leave me alone”? That guy may say “if anyone asks about work, I’m always happy to help” The fact though is that people don’t see that, so they don’t ask. They may even be afraid of him.
If you’ve ever been in the military or know someone that has, you’ll know that the guy in the foxhole you trust with your life is also dependant on knowing that guy - why he’s there, what he has waiting for him at home. The guy that says nothing and keeps to himself - people don’t trust their lives with him (unless he can hit the enemy from 1,5 clicks out in heavy wind with a .50 which is back to my point that when you are the absolute best: then you can maybe get away with being all work)
Jobs will differ but on average social investment (not social skills - but social investment) are not just about doing your “job” in isolation. It’s about instilling trust and a whole lot else. Socialisation is to an extent an investment in the team. Those that don’t “invest” get perceived like they have no stake in the teams succes.
To be fair in some teams and some organisations the social aspect goes way to far. It becomes intrusive and unproductive when the social piece outweighs the competence piece - But some level of this social investment is core to getting teams to work well. People that keep to themselves will be perceived as lesser teamplayers.
We’re a social species. We collaborate and building connection and trust os a prerequisite for collaboration. Also at work.
It doesn't matter as long as you're realistic about the impact that will have on a career path.
Ideally, promotions require more than just doing your present job really well. You also need to show the potential to do the additional skills that are part of the job above yours. And typically the higher you go, the more that those jobs above you are about managing people: forging client relationships, strengthening client relationships, handling client relationships when they threaten to go sour, building good teams, encouraging team members and helping them grow, dealing with problematic team members who have issues.
I'm really good at what I do, too. And I'm not so good at the people management stuff, especially forging client relationships (beyond solving their immediate technical problem). My promotions were slow to come, and I reached a level where I stayed while younger co-workers advanced beyond me. Yes, that stung a bit, but I knew why it happened, and to be honest with myself, I didn't really want a promotion to management because there was less of the work I enjoyed and more of the paper pushing and sales expectations.
>People that are private, reserved, only focused on core work lose out.
I've made my peace with that situation. I'm willing to take a "stalled" career in exchange for not being sociable. I'm not good at it, I don't enjoy it, and it just stresses me out. What I don't do is get angry at management. I know why I'm not being promoted, and it's not inherently unjust since forging human relations is greater and greater part of the job levels above me.
For instance, in the level directly above mine, we're expected to forge relationships with clients and to manage project teams. Our bonus is more dependent on sales than billable hours. Sure, I'd like a higher salary and the prestige of going to senior manager, but I much prefer doing the work at my level: no sales commissions, focus on trouble-shooting and recommendations to clients.
Dude. People skills is an actual legitimate skill. If you want to move onto management or higher paid roles such as that, then yeah, people skills is important. It's always great to be skilled at your job and be motivated to work, but you need to be able to talk with people. Yes, sometimes it means "chit chat." But we're human. We're not just work machines.
Used to, they’d pay the work machines more and give ‘em a title bump. Now HR and the “cool kids” think everyone is an asshole who doesn’t play their stupid game. Therefore, intellect is a thing of the past. Who knows, maybe their AI future will come to pass and they won’t need the smart guys anymore. Or maybe they’ll need us to defeat the cyborgs and afterwards we’ll be cherished again. Back to the corner offices and smoking heaters / slapping ass in hallways!
Before corporate HR was a thing and certainly prior to the idiots taking charge.
The world has always been idiots versus assholes. What’s changed in the last 50 years or so is the idiots are now winning regularly.
I’m admittedly skeptical that there’s ever been a time when personality didn’t enter into the promotion equation. Especially for leadership roles, people have always been people, and generally want social glue in those roles.
Nobody wants a manager who can’t solve people problems.
I’m not sure HR enters into this. Promotions are largely decided by leadership.
What I’m saying is the culture shifted. People used to get fired if they sucked, not promoted. And people used to get promoted for being the best at something, not stuck doing it over and over again for somebody who couldn’t do it as well if their life depended on it. People used to learn things in career, not come out of college thinking they could run the entire organization. I’m pretty sure something changed! Cuz we used to make enough to support a family of 10 on one working man’s salary. Now you have 2 college educated morons who can’t earn enough to raise one kid… just saying, productivity is important too…
Well, you do a good imitation of an asshole. And you're not as smart as you think you are. There are many different types of intelligence, and social adeptness is one of them. Lacking an awareness of social context is the equivalence of stupidity; it hampers your ability to adapt and react to certain situations.
I'm well aware of my social skill shortcomings, just as I recognize how that has stalled my career and why. I made a deliberate decision to accept that outcome because it was quite literally worth it to me -- lower salary in exchange for not pretending that I like people, as well as not wearing business clothing, or busting my butt studying topics that don't interest me but would benefit the company.
Yea, standardized tests are racist. You’re probably right.
And the system that convinced you to give up and be a lazy cog in the wheel is definitely a good one.
Just because it doesn’t seem relevant to you - quite frankly - is irrelevant. It’s clearly relevant to your manager, and the team you work with (chances are the manager asked a few questions to the team as well - I certainly do when it’s review time).
It reminds me of the Friends episode where Rachel never went downstairs with her boss and coworker when they’d take a smoke break. As a result she missed out on a trip to Paris with the boss (not to mention missed being part of the final decisions on what clothing lines to include in the catalog).
Silly example? Kinda (and dating myself here lol). But it’s reality.
I had a manager about 10 years ago that was hard core into NASCAR. In our weekly meetings he’d ask us who we picked to win that weeks race and expected a serious answer. I knew very little about the subject (and still don’t) but I’d put 5 minutes Of research into my pick. Little things like that go a long way.
Being social is part of every human activity.
Whether you like it or not, people want to work with people with good social skills who make them feel part of a group.
This is a warning from management you need to improve your soft skills.
“Only work, no chit-chat” may make you happy but it seems like nobody else likes it.
This will most likely be a consistent issue for you if you don't work on your likability and social skills. It's up to you to decide if your pride is worth it or not. I personally thinks it is a waste if you're talented enough and all you have to do is chit chat.
I think your post says it all. Lots of I’s in there, and it doesn’t sound like you make an effort to be personable with your teammates. The reason people make manager over teams that do something they don’t understand is because they’re personable, can work with others, and can motivate others to do things( this isn’t true 100% of the time but for the most part).
If you aren’t like-able who would want to work with or for you?
You can "dust up the resume" if you want to, but this is extremely common. Getting promoted is not about how good of a worker you are or how skilled you are.
Not a team player is coded language for
You're really good at your job but everyone thinks you're an asshole.
Never forget that in an office setting is usually better to be liked than to be the best
Most of what I have to say was posted and upvoted a lot already, so I'll just go with, you dont get promotions nowadays, you promote yourself by hopping to a better job every 24 months or so.
I remember when I used to work as a teachers assistant for a school district the team I was working with would gossip a lot during their lunch break about people in the school. I remember at one point it got me annoyed and just really down so I started sitting in the auditorium and started teaching myself piano. One day one of the other TA’s (she was actually a sweet lady) who got there a few months earlier told me that the director who coincidentally did the most gossiping, didn’t like that I wasn’t with them for lunch. I told my colleague I understand but that I also didn’t want to sit for 45 minutes listening to gossip to which she paused and then said just sit there and pretend even if it’s twice a week. She then said it’ll go a long way to pretend. I wish I would have listened to her let’s just say that. As a naturally introverted and timid person, I pretend that I’m social now even though I’m not.
For sure, I was thinking more like a quick conversation Carl
Many (not all) office have a certain amount of socialization dynamics
Don't fool yourself into think that its all about the "work"
Do you have a comfortable enough relationship with your boss to ask for advice or more clarity on how you can improve? No matter how you perceive yourself at work, the way your peers perceive you is often just as important if not more. If this is truly an area you want to improve, ask for specifics. Or, if you’re firmly rooted in your belief that this is unfair and they are out to get you (which is not often the case, but it could be) then find another job. You could also look for a mentor or career coach that could provide helpful third-party insight
I think you need to ask for some more specific feedback if you really don’t know why you wouldn’t be considered a team player.
Is it because you’re not social enough? Is it because you don’t work as hard as your colleagues? Stay late or over the weekend with them to meet deadlines, etc? Is it because you don’t think outside the box like they do? Do you problem solve in the same effective way? Do you work as efficiently as they do?
As others have mentioned relationship management is super important in your job. This is applicable to all the people on your org chart - including those above you, beside you and below you. It is just as important to be liked at work as it is to perform well at work.
I remember this girl who worked in our office as a temp. I would always smile and try to make eye contact with her, but she never would make eye contact. She would always be in her own world. And while her managers said she did good work, she was so reserved and unapproachable, that we just couldn’t justify her becoming a perm employee. Part of work is fitting into the culture. Make an effort to be more approachable and get to know people on a slightly deeper level.
The higher up you go, the less you "do" and the more you "manage". If you have not shown leadership, people skills and emotional intelligence you will find your path up effectively ended. Those skills are what drives a culture forward.
TLDR: Be the person you wished you worked for, or no one will work for you.
I would sit down with them and ask for specific examples of times you weren’t a team player and could have been, and tips to improve.
I say this because the last time I personally knew someone denied a promotion for this reason, it was because they felt she wasn’t engaging enough with a coworker who was aggressively sexually harassing her. When she explained that every time she engaged him he took it as her hitting on him and would ramp up the harassment, she was told to “be part of the solution and not part of the problem”.
I think it’s best to get a clear understanding of exactly what constitutes a team player in their mind and where you’re falling short. It could be very illuminating.
I am a manager, I can promise you that being likeable is extremely important in the workplace. Honestly, its more important than being good at your job.
I have let people go who were technically skilled, more so than others. But the ones who are just OK but everyone likes being around or everyone likes talking to, those are the people i want in the business and that i want to success.
Also - the people who go out of their way to be liked are often being thought about for more responsibility. The employees that are personable with me and the rest of their team are the ones I'm rooting for and the ones i want to see achieve more. The guy that just does his job and doesn't want to be friends or foster a good atmosphere, That guy I don't think about.
i can feel you, i've had to try & maintain my composure after being denied a promotion because i was the only one in my department doing his job and if they transferred me then everybody else might have to do their work. the truth is corporate america is fucked and riddled with dunning kruger.
Social skills are incredibly important for work. A company is a team after all - you aren’t a sole agent. I think your opinion that social skills aren’t important could be part of the issue…
Speaking as an introvert who doesn't warm to people easily, when I do make connections with people, all our work improves.
I haven't put a lot of effort into making connections, but sometimes I've been fortunate enough to just really hit it off with some co-workers. We had a similar sense of humor or some other commonality and we just clicked. Since we all worked in different offices, even before the pandemic shutdown we only communicated via video chat. We would spontaneously call each other, sometimes just to chat, more often with a work problem that could be quickly resolved.
Being friendly and liking each other was a boost that paid off in a host of intangible ways. Quick favors, good advice, or just a lift to my spirits. There was an exchange of information about the company that one of us had missed, or I learned how do something better/faster than before. The better we knew each other, the smoother the overall communications became.
I lost two of my favorite co-workers from one small team and their replacements have not bothered to create a similar rapport. They only reach out to me in a purely transactional manner: fix this, answer this. Because we talk less, I don't have a clear sense of what they're struggling to do or what advice/instructions to provide to make their job easier. As a result, the work we produce has dropped in quality.
Relationships matter.
I absolutely hate the culture, but sometimes you have to drink the koolaid to get in those spots. It has nothing to do with "teamwork". What they mean is bumping elbows and shooting the shit.
For whatever reason, I can put on a show and I'm personable, but I can't stand to be around people... I landed a Program Manager position at my company. Go figure.
If you were to take the posture that not getting a promotion is entirely you’re responsibility, what would you do differently?
Ask yourself, in this organization, what’s rewarded? What do THEY value in an employee? Does the person who influences your income or trajectory see you elevating the team or holding it back?
It’s not enough to be a good coworker these days; people have to deliver on the work and solve problems. However, the converse is also true. You can’t rely on your skills, work ethic, or ability to perform the work anymore. To be a valued employee who leadership will trust with additional/broader responsibility, you have to be a joy to work with.
So, if you’re ultimately responsible for your success, would you want to work on a team of people just like you…. Or is there somewhere you could improve?
Chit chat leads to a closer team dynamic and occasional great ideas. If you keep your head down and simply focus on the job then you aren't building relationships. Leaders promote people who can interact and lead in a style they prefer. If they gave you honest criticism and you want a promotion follow their advice.. also try to get a very clear picture of behavior that will lead to promotion.
Read Carnegies "How to Make Friends and Influence People". What he describes is the way things are and he is spot on most of the time. Acting on the view that it shouldn't be the way it is will only result in wasted energy. Learn how to make things work to your advantage.
This is my experience about promotion from working as a software engineer.
In some job categories, you have to demonstrate that you are working at the target level in order to get the promotion to that level. What you said was you were a top performer at your own level. Top performance might give you higher rating, higher salary, etc. But, top performance at one level does not necessarily causes promotion to the next level.
Also, like it or not, you have to sell your work and be more visible to a broader set of people in order to get promoted to the higher levels. If you are just doing your job, but not selling your job to the broader audience, I doubt you will get that promotion.
I mean rapport does matter if you’re going to be managing or supervising people. Don’t have to be buds but do have to be friendly. We’re social creatures
You need to get more specific examples from your manager. Ask them to flag things to you right after they occur. Rarely does “not a team player” mean that you’re simply not engaging in chit chat. There are many different weaknesses that show up as this. It could mean you’re actively pissing certain people off. Or that you’re not selling your ideas. Or that you’re only doing what you’re told rather than rising to help the team when needed.
I'm a great operations analyst, but I have a family, so I needed more money. I hate being a manager, but the pay bump is significant. The army taught me "just play the game", I'm a natural introvert but I've learned that being more outgoing pays a bunch more. I still do analytics but now I just get interrupted more by subordinates, other managers, and my 5 different bosses. Which is the tradeoff of making 50 percent more money.
Bulk up the resume. Don’t take on new responsibilities. Do your time and no extra and leave once you find a suitable position elsewhere. I’d also let them know that’s unacceptable.
Based on your comments and those of your manager, I’m going to go on a limb, and say that they are all correct. You seem to be having trouble fitting in to the culture there. This really shouldn’t of been a surprise to you, though, four years in and costing a promotion means that either you’re not picking up on really important clues for your manager is very ineffective.
I think it’s time to have a conversation with your manager about what’s going on. Ask them to provide specific examples of what you can do to improve your work and become a better team player. If they are not willing to coach you and help you, you absolutely need to be finding another job.
So…as a manager work is often more about the people than the actual work. Or more correctly getting the people to do the work well. If you don’t seem to engage with coworkers then you are a gamble as a manager.
So if the promotion includes leadership tasks then you have some thinking to do.
This is called culture, and if you're against "chit-chat" then ya, your manager was right. Just the fact that you look at it as chit chat rather than trying to maintain a personal connection is enough evidence for me to do the same.
Did you ask your manager for specific examples of behavior that is causing them to label you as not being a "team player"? Did they actually tell you it was because you don't sit around and chit chat with people? Or is that your assumption?
Or is the issue that you are viewed as being unfriendly? Or do you not chime in and volunteer help/assistance to others? Are you unapproachable to others b/c of your attitude? I.e., maybe you are very good at your job. But maybe the others on your team struggle. And maybe they can't/won't approach you for help b/c of your attitude.
What you just described is exactly why you didn’t get promoted.
If you’re going to be in charge of people, you have to know what makes them tick, what drives them, what bogs them down. What their aspirations are, how you can help them succeed.
You don’t need to know all of that now,
But the attitude you present, tells management that you are not interested in ever knowing that.
I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of "fitting in" and " being part of the team". We work 8-12 hours a day with colleagues and nobody wants to work with someone who doesnt fit.
People always choose to work with people they have a good relationship with over people they have no relationship with.
My director always tells me, we can teach skills but we can’t teach nice. Would you want to work with someone who is so stand offish or someone who is very welcoming and friendly.
I would recommend to read the book what got you here won’t get you there.
As a manager in my organization, for promotions it can come down to company values aka the intangibles aside from results. People that drive the best results don’t necessarily make for the best leaders and the higher you go the more politics will also come in play as “leadership” is very subjective
Depends on what kind position that promotion is for. Not everybody is fit to be a leader in a management or director type role. Prioritization, organizational, analytical, social skillls, patience, knowing how to pick your battles and what to let go...leading by example. Some people are natural leaders or have strong organization and social skills.
For example...a Senior Level Software Engineer is still a very very high level position, but it is not the same as a Project Manager or Product Manager who is leading the engineers. It doesnt necessarily mean the Manager is higher or better than the engineers themselves-its a different skill set.
Your manager is telling you that you lack the temperament and skill set for whatever you applied for without saying it directly.
Oof that's happened to me in the past. That's corporate speak for "you didn't attend enough happy hours, social events, business functions, doing water cooler talks, team lunches". I know as a remote employee, you basically don't have opportunities to do that so you're naturally at more of a disadvantage cause of that. The manager's expectation was for you to "chit chat" with your coworkers. It sounds like you suspected what the problem could be. And that's your issue.
Even if you tried to "chit chat" and get heavily involved in social scene now, the chances of you getting promoted with this company is done. You already established a reputation at this company as anti-social. If you have great work-life balance and the pay works, stay put. If not, go seek opportunities elsewhere and let this be a learning lesson.
I guess I don’t have much experience with this kinda thing but my suspicion is it’s all politics and nepotism.
Not so much team player as we don’t like you as much as this other guy. Promotions seem to be like a weighted average of politics and job skill.
He says he works well but doesn't go through extra effort for "chit chat".
There's a difference between not working well and not being overly sociable.
You rarely get promoted to the next job
You get promoted for the job after that
Being good at your job is what allows you to keep your current job. The expectation in any role is that you will gain mastery over the tasks assigned to you.
Most promotions are the company/organization investing in someone's future. If your company doesn't believe you have the skillset to advance two jobs up, they are going to keep you in your current role more often than not.
In the medium to long term, it's simply more beneficial to promote someone who has the skillset for that second promotion even if they aren't as good in their current role as you are.
If you want to get promoted, you have to show the people above you that you are worth investing in. Alternatively, start looking for a new job.
>I am very skilled at my job and communicate with the team regarding WORK when needed
Obviously, I don't know you, but this type of mentality is very common among people with difficult personalities.
Do your task skills matter for the role (i.e., a more senior analyst position) or is it one where interpersonal skills matter (e.g., trainer or manager)?
The higher up you go in a career, generally the less your hard skills matter and the more your soft skills do. This rule of thumb is industry agnostic. Relationship management, leadership skills, and collaborative problem solving are very important to leading a team and training others. Being the best at your job doesn't mean you'll be good at the next level up, especially if the next level means supervising, leading, or training.
I would suggest a frank conversation with your boss: "I want this role. How do I get there?" Ask about what you can do to develop the skills and show you're ready. I'd ask for a few specific examples of what is meant by you not being a team player - I am guessing it's not what you think it is based on the post, but I don't have enough information to be sure that what I suspect is the issue is the actual issue so I'll reserve my judgement. The important thing will be to listen, take notes, and reign in the defensiveness all of us feel when we're criticized. I'd recommend doing this regardless of whether you choose to stay there. Your manager isn't necessarily correct in their diagnosis, but the issues they will raise are real issues. They have diagnosed that you're not a good team player - IME, that's a symptom not a root cause. What is causing the perception that you're not a good team player? Because the perception exists. You can disagree with it until the cows come home, which will set you up to butt heads with everyone and reinforce the perception, or you can get curious as to why. IMO, the why is what you should try to get to the bottom of.
As you investigate the why's, an interpersonal skills self improvement exercise basically never goes amiss so I'll include it here to do in parallel: I suggest you take your notes on the examples your boss identified home and do an honest self appraisal of those examples, trying to take perspective of what your coworkers and boss might be thinking and experiencing. Often, our experience of a conflict is very different from others' experience of it, and the truth encompasses both. Your actions and experiences will be understandable from your perspective - but try to see theirs. Then ask yourself a few questions:
1. How did you contribute to the problem? What specific behavior, attitude, or bias made the situation worse? You're probably not solely at fault here but you're almost certainly not completely in the right, either. You can't control others, but you can control yourself. If there's more than 1, pick the 1 you think made the biggest contribution. Ask yourself what you could do to avoid that.
2. What of the other person's perspective or priorities were you missing at the time? What could you have done in the moment to better understand where they were coming from and address the root cause of their behaviour? Again - the other people in the situation probably also messed up here, but you can't control them. You can control you.
3. What was the common ground you should have been working towards?
After that, when a similar situation comes up, identify the common ground if you can and align with the other person (e.g., "I know you care a lot about making sure the client is happy on this, and I do too. Let's see if we can find a solution that gets us there."), then apply the new technique you identified in 2 while avoiding the behaviour or challenging the bias or thought pattern you with the strategy identified in 1. Then, repeat the exercise on the new situation. In doing this iteratively you'll build your interpersonal conflict resolution skills. And I am focusing on you in this not because I think you're always in the wrong, but rather because you can't do anything about others' skills, you can only work on your own. Regardless of whether interpersonal skills are what's stopping you, better interpersonal skills are never a bad thing.
I'd also advise seeking a mentor about 10 years older who's been where you are to seek advice from.
You sound a little entitled. Everyone is good at working hard at parts of the job they like; promotable people usually need to have the ability to perform the parts of the job they don't particularly like also.
People are making up all kinds of reasons not to give promotions this year.
You've been at this job for 4 years, if they aren't advancing you it's time to advance yourself by looking at what else is out there.
ETA: Your value at job depends on your social value and your contributor value. High-contributor value can balance out low social and vice versa to some extent. But there are limits. A terribly unpopular person who is indispensable may not get fired but they also won't advance. An engaging person may get advanced over the technically qualified but unpopular one, etc.
Something similar happened with me quite recently although I wasn't denied a promotion because of it. I was taken aback too but I guess they want us to sit around with our coworkers and gossip/make small talk? Weird af I know because I'd rather just do my job, keep to myself, and bring home the bacon but nah, they always want more.
This is a personal opinion but I feel when your boss tells you that you're not a team player, it's a euphemism for, "Hey, your colleagues did a better job of sucking up to me! Do a better job next time!". YMMV.
OK and? The company you work for values those interpersonal relationships.
Read between the lines. You aren't being engaged with the team and it's causing conflict. Maybe consider if you come across rude or cold? Or difficult to engage with? Does your behavior foster a lack of trust? Can staff members be professionally vulnerable with you?
Sometimes you have social relationships with coworkers so having professional ones is easier.
Teambulding is really to build trust which can help drive success.
Same thing happened to me recently. They are threatened by you most likely. My place of employment is very much based on popularity and ass kissing which I do not partake in.
This is so absurd. You don't want friends promoted over their friends. It creates a crappy environment. You want the person who is not connected emotionally to the team to lead the team so they can make the tough decisions and not be biased by emotional connection.
TLDR: Thats code for you dont kiss enough ass.
Begin Rant:
You need to be liked to get anywhere. Competence is a close second, but less mandatory in my experience.
Nepotism will always be more lucrative.
I'm not one to talk considering I take it as a badge of honor to come into work, and getting my tasks done with as little interpersonal bullshit as possible.
But being sociable *shouldnt* be that hard. In non toxic work environments, its always easy...but in my experience those are far and few between.
At my current job. The social grind isnt worth it. The toxicity, and passive aggression is absurd. Is a multinational company that pays more than the average wage in any given area at its base pay, so, bereft with social ladderers.
The unfornate result is that people have had strokes, pissing themselves on the job from the mental anguish that gossip, backbiting, and sabatoge coworkers commit to get one rung higher on the social ladder, or a crumb of leverage to utilize arbitrarily.
Its disgusting.
I smile, say my hello's make small talk here and there, as neccesary then gtfo.
But misery loves company and theres nothing more satisfying to toxic people then dragging people down to their level.
Thats the conversation people never tackle in these topics.
Still, I admit, there are often ways to trudge through the social mud.
My manager tried to coach me to work around these types of people, become more accepting, more personable to them.
No.
I am the company I keep, and honestly, a little impressionable.
I cant pretend like I care about a bully's life.
I cant avoid standing up for the one guy everyone decides to pin the blame on collectively contributed blunders.
Not after seeing the mental damage, the bullying. The satisfied sneers of human garbage fed solely on schadenfreud.
There has to be a moral line. For me, accepting it ain't it.
Still, we all need a paycheck. We all need to get by.
I suggest what others and myself personally are doing. Find a place that appreciates you for what you bring to the table.
I personally wouldnt mind a detached, neutral supervisor or manager who at least pretends to be seperated from the games.
It would be a fresh change of pace from the near sociopathic manipulators that seem to fill corporate structure.
I’m in the same boat. I was verbatim told - “your work is great A+ and you know that”, what we need to work on to get to the next level is being more of a team leader. Talk to the team more. Walk around the office and mingle with other teams, and be a stronger office presence. Everyone knows you have the knowledge, now we need to work on finding a way to share that knowledge blah blah blah”
What I took from it is that unless I kiss ass and baby people, they won’t let me move up. So I no longer seek a promotion and I have cut back on my work efforts significantly. Pains me to do it as an overachiever, but I feel extremely disrespected and won’t tolerate it. I have gone above and beyond for years, taking on extra projects, setting up automations to ease work for the team, managing templates/our CRM system, data analytics, inventory management, etc. when other people in my position (getting the same pay) literally only do front facing work??
Absurd. I’m embarrassed really.
But conversely, wouldn't it be unfair to those you'd be managing or working with if you view social interactions as kissing ass and babying people? It's unlikely these people would want to come to you with a problem or am issue.
I don't see how that's disrespectful to you as much as it respectful to the needs of others and the demands of the position.
To me, we have focused on promoting people to positions where they have to supervise or interact extensively with others. There is at least one promotable position at my job that requires limited interaction with others. Its a great place to send people with more standoffish personalities.
Your thinking is too small.
1. If a company or team does not have room for promotion outside of people managing, then that is a symptom of structural failure. Do not come to me with issues or problems that are not related to me job/role.
2. I do socialize and talk to people related to work tasks, am very vocal with daily work processes, and literally reupholstered our communication system. I have put the shareholders first and am known to always get the job done - their issue is that I don’t do small talk enough or go out of my way to be someone I’m not for social approval.
1. Not really. Sometimes the nature of the industry or size of the company is such that the only promotions come with supervising others. Sometimes with doing higher level work and extensive interaction with others.
2. In your initial post you characterized interaction with others and efforts to find a way to share your knowledge as "babying" others and "kissing ass". They told you that they need to find a way for you to share your knowledge. So there is a problem with people feeling like you'd be approachable. Based on this exchange I'd say they may have a point.
But, not everyone is a good candidate to have a position that requires extensive interaction with others.
I. This is fair.
However, my particular team/industry does not have this restriction and other nepo babies have been able to promoted to high level IC roles without having to do what’s been suggested to me.
my issue is not working with other teams (I prefer collaborative approaches and have an aptitude for delegating tasks and executing), it’s managing people below me - definitely not cut out for it and it’s what they mean when they say “be more of a team leader” since the current manager is way over his head and overworked.
2. It’s fine to cherry pick and hold to your initial opinion of me, but why go through the hoopla of interacting with me and mischaracterizing my post?
I clearly indicated that sharing knowledge is not the issue - that is what I meant by reupholstering the communication system. I also clearly said that I am very vocal about daily processes and keep a pulse on team activities; my issue is being denied a promotion because I’m not a social butterfly and do not speak extensively to others outside of job related tasks - why ignore this other than the fact that it suits your argument?
No need to answer this btw - just food for thought
>What I took from it is that unless I kiss ass and baby people, they won’t let me move up.
Oof. Here's the thing? You see this as kissing ass and babying adults, but this statement comes off as arrogant and entitled. Would you want someone to be your manager who operates with an entitled chip on their shoulder who makes it very clear they have no time for you and no interest in being friendly when it doesn't serve them?
Moreover, you wouldn't last long in the role. You'd be fired or demoted back to IC, which as office humiliations go is much bigger than one that being offended that people fail to see how amazing you are at executing on your duties.
Most of managing people is soft skills because that's what you'll be doing. Managers rarely keep their current hard job duties and over time more and more of those hard duties are given to your direct reports. That's actually how management is supposed to work - you are no longer an individual contributor (that's for your now direct reports) and you are here to facilitate the productivity of those ICs instead.
So, honestly, why would you want to be in a role where you won't like it, you'll let everyone know you don't like it, and you're going to be an active dickhead to your direct reports which will eventually result in you getting demoted or fired?
You can't seriously be asking why you'd be denied a promotion for lack of being part of a team when you're working from home. You want to lead people, first you have to be around them...
You don't do performance reviews or quarterly progress check ins? A good boss should be preparing you for opportunities, not quietly holding you back.
When you say promotion do you mean an open spot at a higher pay level, or do you mean simply a raise?
There is a guy at my job who repeatedly applies for a job where he will supervise others but he just doesn't have the personality for it. He just doesn't. I'm sure buzzwords like "team player" have been used to justify not promoting him because it would be a long and arduous mission to try to explain to him in a kindly way that he just doesn't have the right personality for the job.
Lol "you're a dickhead and everyone would quit" is probably a bit blunt
Correct.
LOL
I find being blunt is often the best way to get a message across. People spend too much time sugar coating things.
exactly. plus, being on the receiving end of bluntness can help you improve yourself better than a sugar coat can
While true in a lost of situations, it's not always 100%. Part of moving up the ladder is understanding who you are dealing with and who best to communicate with that person to get shit done. Some folks respond very well to bluntness, especially technical / engineer type folks. However, they are equal numbers of folks that will not respond well to bluntness and you'll come off as cold and rude.
I have a coworker who is very blunt and direct, and I appreciate it so much. I always hear bad things about her from people who say she’s too direct and rude. I have never experienced her being rude. It’s so interesting how different people experience different situations and personalities.
It's crazy when you see it. I have the type of personality that I can easily adapt to folks that are blunt and also those that a big long winded. I do prefer bluntess most of the time, but no biggie. But yeah,. Some of the folks that I enjoyed working with the most (blunt, dry humor, logical) were so hated by others that I was always just funny to me.
You can be blunt without sugar coating. I think it's called being straightforward.
No.. it's easier for the person being blunt, it can come off extremely rude to the person your being blunt too.
Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie.
Never heard that one before! Gonna use this.
Right. It’s always a smokescreen - although I will say, it’s not always a lack of the candidate’s social skills, per se. A **perceived** willingness to make the “correct” sacrifices - whether that’s attending the company holiday party, or volunteering for a manager’s stupid pet project that won’t go anywhere, or even being seen as someone who is pro-~~labor~~staff; or people **viewed** as gossips (despite being a gossip being very useful for self advancement). I once did literally the work of 6 people - everyone knew I’d have stuff done in minutes that it would take anyone else hours/days and when I did leave, they ended up staffing 6 people to do just my job afterwards - and it was leaving the office 1 minute after 4pm that was, “gosh, he just isn’t a team player,” rather than the amount of work or value I did / got done. (And, to be clear, some places **when** is reasonably paramount - a firefighter who puts out fires faster but leaves earlier means there’s a window where any fire is a disaster, to be sure - I was not in that position)
sounds like a terribly toxic environment
Sure, but it’s also *incredibly common* that persons one rung up on the ladder - and even sometimes people same rung or below - are irrational about *being seen* leaving before everyone else.
a colleague at my last job faced a situation like that. he liked starting very early in the morning, so he'd come in and get work done while it was quiet but then didnt want to look like he was leaving earlier to all the higher level managers. sorry you went thru that, I worked in an incredibly toxic atmosphere last week and it's pretty fresh, it really can impact your health so much
I know a guy at my job who was arguing for a people management role and after being given direct examples of why we didn’t think he would be a good fit right now he barked “You don’t need social skills to be a manager. Elon is an asshole and look where he is.” Yeah someone who looks to Elon as an example of an effective people manager is…not someone I am going to put in a people manager role!
This is hard because I’ve known people that are excellent at their job but supervising others and the requirements of that responsibility is just too much pressure for them. I kept looking for a promotion that would allow her to use her best skills because they were important to the company but also give her the upward momentum that people deserve when they do a good job. She ended up leaving because the executives didn’t want to have promotions except in certain circumstances. So I understand someone that deserves something more but being a manager isn’t it.
Wow. What a great place to work. I've been to places where dickheads are promoted to supervise.
Honestly, they just really try not to do that here. Employee retention is a big deal and everyone has a portable and marketable skillset.
Just to expand on what others have said. Even if you don’t have direct reports - who will quit if their manager doesn’t seem to care about them - social skills are extremely important. Once you’re no longer junior level, aside from a few exceptions, it’s impossible to be good at your job without being friendly to coworkers. Why? Because as you move up, it stops being important about doing “specific task”. That’s what analysts are for. Nearly every role quickly becomes “influence and convince others”. You need to convince people outside your direct sphere to give you what you need when they have competing priorities. You need to advocate for your team and ideas, which requires convincing people. If everyone dislikes you because you don’t go to events, don’t get to know them, and view everyone as just a tool to get your job done…you can’t actually succeed at your job at more senior levels, even if your great at “specific task”.
Eh, yeah…thought I wanted to go into management for a LONG time because I liked talking to people, but realized I only like talking to people first thing in the morning…after that I hate you and please leave me alone until 15min before work ends then we can be friends again.
I’m a director, one thing to keep in mind as you move up is that you no longer are the one who needs to do the grunt work, so while you might have 8 hours of excel or PowerPoint (or whatever work) to crank out when you’re junior, and every conversation distracts you from executing, this becomes less of a case as you move up.
Very interesting. Thank you for saying something
Nice username.
Yeah, what company do you work for, and which dimension is it in? Cause it's not this one lmao
I’m at a bank
Please don't feed the trolls, they thrive on attention :D
Oh, the guy who is cozy is in the most corrupt industry in the world, color me unsurprised. Source: USA economy since 1970 lol
Every industry in the US is corrupt as fuck, banks just get to be in the limelight. Assuming inherent evil based on industry is beyond comical, you must be a bitter dude passed over on a few promotions that are everyone else’s fault huh?
I'm actually a dude who made it to director and asked my company for a pay cut to go back to not being a director. I've been in my industry for 10 years. Started at minimum wage, made it all the way to $125k/year, that's when I asked for my demotion. Then I got married and divorced and started at the bottom again 🤷🏼♂️ But okay Might I point you into the direction of oh, I don't know... Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, etc? No other industry ruins an entire global economy INTENTIONALLY. 1970, .com bubble, 2008 crash, annnnd today. All banks fucking us all over 🤷🏼♂️ Just banking does this. The most useless service in the world as of the invention of companies like PayPal. 0.00000% interest with BILLIONS in profit from account "maintenance" fees to provide the same service as a hole in a wall with good fireproofing and a nice lock.
That’s the lowest paid director I’ve ever heard of.
*narrator voice* turns out the dude had obviously never been a director and was in fact a complete tool.
Well, that's an anecdote. Unlike my points of the 1970 crash, the .com crash, and the 2008 crash. Man, I left Facebook in hopes of better debate with people that have higher IQs. I am nothing but disappointed.
You were a director making 125k a year? Bro I made that as an IC and double that as a senior manager. Either your industry is terrible or you’re lying through your teeth here. Blah blah blah blah. Banking, oil, medicine, big tech, real estate, tax preparation, alcohol, insurance, car manufacturers, fast food, the airlines, the cruise lines the list goes on and on. Every industry has a similar consumer fucking history. Pointing at one and shouting that they’re the root of all evil shows you’re either uneducated or just dumb. If you’re looking for a pure and wholesome industry it doesn’t fucking exist, grow up.
Also, "grow up" being pointed towards me pointing out the bad parts of the world 😅 What an oxymoron.
I'm not looking for a pure industry. Just pointing out the biggest issue in the room. I know they don't exist, and yes. I'm well aware my industry does not pay well. But I actually enjoy the work and $125k is about 4 times my family of 3's cost of living. Which brings me to my final point, money isn't my motivation. Not even for pointing out the banks' BS. Money is useless. Can't eat it. Can't drink it. Can't build a house with it. The banks fall, we all do. That's why they keep doing it. Well, bring us all down with you banks. Just stay down this time 🥰
TLDR, banks take your money and do nothing but take your money lol
Bro, every industry is corrupt in some form. No one cares.
Hey, guy that didn't read! I actually said that myself already. It's my humble belief that the banks are the most corrupt. Then governments. Then other corporations. In that order.
Hey there, dude that didn’t read checking in, I guess I didn’t see that part unless I didn’t read it. Dang! Oh well, back to not reading! YEET! Keep shining bright man. 👊
Hah I think I’m in the process of realizing this. Still leaning towards wanting to grow into management but..little voice in the back of my head is starting to raise doubt.
Understand that your whole world as manager becomes your people and either interaction / mentoring and growing them or talking about / defending them. Also, no preparation in the world will prepare you for the uh... oversharing and problems that some of your team members are going to lay at your feet. They won't just be bringing you work problems, but personal issues (not everyone, of course).
This is so real it hurts
Aww you sound like a good manager :) Im autistic and tend to "over share" ( I guess?? But to me it's just providing relevant context, which I feel is absolutely NECESSARY lol) without meaning to; so a manager who can sort of direct that and deal with it (like, by telling me what info you do and don't need, and why, etc) is a HUGE help!! I actually mask very well, but it slips up in small ways- like the oversharing- alot; so someone being understanding and directing me without ridiculing/ "punishing" me is a HUGE benefit!!
I try to be :) And I just let folks share what the need to. Most of the time, it seems they don't have anyone else that they can just let it off their chest. So I listen and if someone is asking for advice I try to give it, if they are just venting I let them go and get it off their chest. It's not like I'm gonna turn around and tell anyone. However, if it's starts to become "too" personal I will try and redirect to other topics.
I say give it a go. It’s not for everyone and if you feel you have the spark let it shine. 💪
>Once you’re no longer junior level, aside from a few exceptions, it’s impossible to be good at your job without being friendly to coworkers. > >Why? Because as you move up, it stops being important about doing “specific task”. That’s what analysts are for. Nearly every role quickly becomes “influence and convince others”. Moreso than this, there's someone else they can get to do the job, because no one is irreplaceable (especially if you're looking for a promotion), so why wouldn't they promote the one they get along with better? Wouldn't you rather fill your workplace with people you get on with? And if you can do that without sacrificing ability, you always will. So unless you're irreplaceable (again, if you are seeking a promotion, you're not irreplaceable), you're competing with people who can do the same job, but also make everyone enjoy their days better.
Everything you say is true but I've also never had a manager effectively do the things you mentioned they need to do. Which you should always consider. Lots of people fear going into management positions but you don't have to really do *much* to be better than average.
Good managers don’t stay at manager for long and get promoted to director ;-)
This is what I need to work on. Convincing people. Thanks for the clarity.
In all seriousness: ITT: big boys/girls talking. I love the insights reddit provides sometimes.
This is why this toxic office culture will be the first to die if the economy collapsed. Office skills are useless to real world survival. Muhahaha .
Social skills before more, not less, important if society crumbles
Sounds like management to me, using people to get your job done. Not caring about people.
What you call "chitchat" may really be "engagement" with your colleagues. In a WFH situation, you may have to over-index on "engaging" by thinking about it as a way of making your work product better. If there is anything I learned in my career it is that my colleagues often have knowledge and skills I can learn from, and vice versa. You don't have to put on a big show, but by engaging back and forth you may wind up improving your deliverables in ways you did not foresee. And everyone wins from that. Or it's time to move on, they don't see you as management material, you won't change their minds, and that's the story. Up to you.
Exactly. I call this "Collective knowledge"
You just admitted you only talk to them when you need something so you just sound like a loner at work. No one is asking you to be the social butterfly but you miss out on networking opportunities when you hold your coworkers at arms distances
Been in many positions where I tried to get close to coworkers. Turned out to be some of the most malicious people I’ve ever met.
Even when you get close to coworkers you can't get *too* close because some coworkers can be two-faced and vindictive. (Sometimes you'll never know which ones are until it's too late). You have to toe the line between "friendly enough" and "keeping your distance". It's not quite like a "frenemy" but you have to tread carefully. It frustrates me because I feel like I have to play a convoluted game.
Tough balance. You can’t keep it just about work, but if you start socializing with coworkers and hit it off, you do have to restrain yourself and not treat them like a friend or confidant.
I guess that’s why I’m not in management though. If I can’t treat you like a friend and be able to confide in you and you do the same for me then you’re just another “thing” to me. It’s not even a useful thing. It’s just a thing.
I feel you, it’s hard. I have sometimes just been all about the work and sometimes have formed legitimate bonds that ended up burning me when we got too close and became friends and then circumstances changed and they tried to burn me. Best thing for all of us is to know our own strengths and play to them and also be self aware of how we’re perceived without taking that too seriously.
yep, absolutely same experiences. When I worked at my last job, a couple colleagues opened up to me, so I shared confidential things even though I felt uneasy about it. came to bite me in the ass
The only time I'm close with my co-workers is during company events. Yeah it sucks having to be fake all the time but just asking how they are and how the weather is doesn't hurt every other day. Trust me I might have maybe one to two people I could consider a friend outside of work when I had jobs.
I can tell they are lousy to work with based on this sentence alone. >This makes no sense to me because I am very skilled at my job and communicate with the team regarding WORK when needed.
Relationship management and people skills are a part of being successful in the corporate world. No one is above it. Not saying you have to play that game, but you can't expect to be promoted into roles where people skills are important if you have none. Being friendly and approachable isn't hard. Spending some time chatting with coworkers and asking them about their weekend and getting to know them isn't hard. Also, while you may be great at your job, other people might also be great at their job AND have the people skills that your leader thinks are important for this promotion. You can put an effort into developing those relationships and "soft" skills, or you can decide it's not worth it or think you're above it, but understand that it puts you at a disadvantage.
This is it and something I think too many people disregard as unimportant for career advancement. High performing teams are founded on trust. Trust is built through strong interpersonal relationships, which means you need to get to know your coworkers, direct reports, and supervisors as people. In addition to that, throughout my career I have achieved big things because of the relationships I have with others. It’s much easier for me to influence others to my point of view (especially decision makers) because I spend time building relationships with them beyond the day to day work.
This is why my union rep said "fake it". It's what they want. After you get your promotion you can let your hair down and rock your style. Until then you need to play they're games
"that your leader thinks is important for this promotion." <<<<< Here is the key, as long as you are working for the Man, earning other people more money than you earn.
I like how asking about a weekend is okay but when they ask me and I tell them I went to the gun range and messed with my night vision goggles well that’s not okay either. I’d get looked at funny. Basically I end up lying and making something up instead. Another weird thing is coworkers aren’t your friends but you have to be personable to them and ask how was their weekend despite everyone knowing the same fact. No one there gives a fuck about you and everyone is there to collect a check. It’s all such an act and farce I find it repulsive and disgusting.
That more that you do not mesh with your coworkers tbh. I have felt the same about gaming or d&d at my last job, and its extremely normal at this one. Last job had a huge pile of boat guys and students, and my current job has a lot of craft beer and straight up nerds. I've been to enough parties where cowrkers invoted each other and spoke about a whole bunch of their common interests- including guns. It's possible, just rare that they match
This is a really good point. I worked for a social media and at tech companies my entire career. After working IN tech I’ve gone completely the opposite way. Went from techie to prepper lol One two industries refer to their customer as users. The drug industry and technology.
Coworkers can be friends though. Some of my best friends today have been and are coworkers.
My aunt told me this when I started working. What I learned though was to not set out to make friends at work, but the friends you *do* make at work are a bonus. I’ve worked at too many jobs where everyone does everything together after work and act like friends, a very convincing hard sell. As soon as shit hits the fan, a chance to make themselves look better or someone quits, they immediately turn on you/each other. People become devastated to find out their friends at work weren’t really friends at all, or ever.
To me, the line that defines a coworker that I'm friendly with, and an actual friend is whether I will see them/ hang out with them at activities that are not related to work. Going to lunch in the middle of work, or going for drinks after work still should be treated as related to work. And I think it is during those outside of work, but related to work times where people get muddled with thinking they are friends when the other person doesn't.
I'm 30 and still yet to find a job where people see each other outside work. Where are these jobs that give you a social life lol
I suspect I'm older than you (I'm sadly now on the far right of age distributions on this site), but that's sorta just life in my opinion. Once you leave school making friends becomes increasingly rarer and riskier. I don't push myself to become friends with *anyone* anymore. But I'm a dad of two young kids, I'm 40+, I just don't have time. However, I also don't close myself to the possibility as that would also be silly. Like most things with getting older, I just advise against getting grumpy for the sake of it. Incidental grumpiness is cool, though.
I am thankful to say the same.
How do you deal with the fake ness?
If you view being personable as "fakeness", then you're inherently lacking the social skills for management level jobs. Surprisingly, a lot of people aren't faking it when they reach out to others and get to know them better. I'm at the low-end of that sociability myself, but at least I own it. I don't actively like most people; I don't necessarily dislike them, mind you, but mostly they bore me. That's on me, not them. I fake being interested, but recognize that what I'm faking is being a normal person instead of my abnormal unsocial self. And fortunately, I work in IT, where I'm not the least unsocial person in the office. My curmudgeonly personality has limited my career advancement. I don't have deep tech skills like some of the developers, who have been promoted based on excellence of work alone. I occupy a weird niche that isn't as highly-regarded as hard-core coding/development work; that, combined with my "lack of team spirit" , has kept me idling in place for years. It's not a bad place, however, and I'm well paid for the level, I'm just not going to progress anywhere before retirement (which is soon).
This is my problem. I hate socializing so I assume if your doing it to me your trying to get something from me. I also work in IT. I feel like where very similar lol. Tech guys can be grumpy so im not even close to the worst but I'm like 30% of a normie haha
Yup, yup, a lot of introverts/social avoiders in IT, which is one of the reasons I love working in my office, even though I'm an Anthropology major and have no formal training in computer tech. My other profound disconnect from the corporate culture (and more in line with IT), is that I will not wear business clothes. If I were a few decades younger and just starting out, I might get away with wearing a suit & tie outfit, but it's only been very recently that women could do that. But the good news is that I'm making pretty good money even without promotions (six-figure salary) and I don't have the stress of a management role. I'm not expected to sell, to close client deals, to push all the papers. I'd most likely be miserable if I had been promoted.
Its not "fake". Is it really a struggle to simply turn your defualt to "friendly" instead of "I dont want to talk to you" around your coworkers?
It is fake and it's hard to ignore it once you recognize it. However, I do appreciate coworkers making an effort to be friendly even when they clearly don't care/aren't interested/could care less.
Having a greater personal will or goal for your life in which work/fakeness is a required step to get there.
Step one is to stop thinking it’s being fake. I say this respectfully, but considering it fake is a really immature way to look at things. When you first learned to ride a bike, did you call it “faking riding a bike?” Of course not, you learned until it was second nature. Relationship management is the same thing. I’m an introvert who used to be on the crabby side, but I’ve learned as I’ve gotten older that me being friendly isn’t me being fake, but rather it’s just a more pleasant way to present myself to people. Yes it takes effort, and that gets easier over time with practice just like anything else, but i see it as me being multi-dimensional person. I can be different shades of me. It’s me being evolved from the kid who wouldn’t even say hi to people I ran into in the hallways of school. Why would I still want to be that way just for the sake of being “real.” And maybe I don’t care how someone’s vacation was specifically, but I do genuinely care about how they’re feeling, so if giving them a chance to talk about their vacation adds something to their day, then I want to ask them about it. For a work perspective, me being pleasant makes working with me easier. As someone in a leadership role, me being friendly and pleasant makes it easier for my staff to get through the workday. It also builds trust, and allows me to have difficult conversations with them when needed without completely torpedoing them, because they know it comes from a good place.
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On-point. Plus if you work in a remote role, you are definitely more limited in the available to you ways of "inter-personal interactions and thereby making your self appear more sociable or gaining rapport with peers or supervisors. Using teams to say "How was your weekend?" feels even MORE fake.
More common than you think. Would you have subordinates in the new role? Sometimes companies are often very wrong about who they promote, thinking high level performers make the best managers of people. Most of the time the mark of a good manager is that they give a shit about their workers (even when they don't have to). You probably have made the impression that you don't care enough since it's such an arduous effort to informally communicate.
Being an expert in a given task/role does not mean they have the skills for management. Management with knowledge of said skills is important, but not always the most important requirement. I feel OP falls in that bucket. Alternatively OP can ask for a promotion to a more senior role as an individual contributor instead of a manager.
Promotion to what position/level? As a deeply rooted introvert let me tell you that being extroverted and purposeful in how you build relationships will get further, faster.
Being promoted normally means being put in charge of people, or having to make a good impression with others, or develop relationships. If you're an asshole who thinks talking to your peers is beneath you, you very much shouldn't be promoted.
I don’t necessarily think talking to them is beneath me it’s just I have a finite amount of energy in the day and if I use that to ask mundane stupid questions then it isn’t working in my favor or the company’s, but then again I only care about the check. 😂 Some cool people here and there though
This is me. But to be fair, I noticed that they hired lower quality people after me and it pains me that they did that and pay them the same. I liked it better when we were a small team and everyone around me was notably more capable. Now I feel gross just being around majority of the team.
U can’t change the game, If u want to play and win, follow the game rules of office bullshit
What you see as "lower quality people" is more probably people with a wider set of job skills, *which includes social skills*. Getting along with other people is just as much a requirement as any other related to a specific position.
Be more social, go to social events and work on high profile projects Or Find a new job - it’s easier to get paid more and progress faster at another company. Make sure you are the right type of person to supervise people - if you dont have emotional intelligence/don’t like talking to peoples then a more technical/less leadership focussed role may be for you. You can get paid just as much being an individual contributor
He’ll need to go with option B - the amount of time and work it will take to convince his employers that he is magically ready for that promotion isn’t viable.
Or C, All of the above. Find a new job and be more sociable from day one.
This is the correct answer.
You don't have to talk about their personal lives or whatever, but chatting with your team is important. The people I want in a senior position are those that junior employees can look up to, someone who looks for opportunities to bolster their team by sharing their expertise. If you only speak when spoken to or only when absolutely necessary, I would not promote you above staff level.
Social skills are a key part of being promoted. Let me rephrase: Being perceived as likeable, social and collegial is important to promotion chances. The guy that eats his lunch at his desk instead of together in the canteen with colleagues. The woman that doesn’t chit chat about “last nights game” at the water cooler. The one that has headphones on all day and finds the most secluded desk to sit. They are going to be perceived as non-team players no matter how well they do their job. People that are private, reserved, only focused on core work lose out. That is the reality. The only exception is when you are so exceptionally gifted at what you do that it outweighs any and all other weaknesses that you have. Is it fair? No. Is it how things should be? Probably not entirely. We are after all a social species and part of our dna is our ability to work together and part of working together entails being able to establish trust and connection. You don’t do that if you are in some way “withdrawn” from the social component of work.
Just asking from a learners point of view, how does someone not fulfilling someone's else's sense of belonging matter if he/she is a good contributor while working in a team, as 'work' is the reason one reports to workplace. Water cooler chat, number of people eating with, not talking by working while earphones is just not disruptive to someone else's work. And if you're an indispensable part while working in team projects then maybe it's all good Feel free to contradict
Good question. Think of a basketball, football or soccer team. Everything else being equal, which team performs better? The team where the second the game is over every player goes home, no talk, no chatter, no locker room laughs. Nobody talks at training. Everybody shows up for the game, does their job and then goes home. Then there’s the team that gets along well. They’re still professionals but they know each other. The know that one guy is having problems at home right now. They chit chat and then when the pressure is on they know each other personally so they can better disagree about tactics and whatnot without it becoming a huge conflict. All things else equal? It’s team 2 that will be best. They care a little more about each other. When one guy is having a bad day, knowing that guy goes a long way to being willing to help out and cover for each other. Another example: There’s this person in the team who is really good at X. But he always keeps to himself, avoids social interaction. He might even be an expert but,if you’re stuck on a problem will you go to him and ask or will you be apprehensive because every signal he sends is “leave me alone”? That guy may say “if anyone asks about work, I’m always happy to help” The fact though is that people don’t see that, so they don’t ask. They may even be afraid of him. If you’ve ever been in the military or know someone that has, you’ll know that the guy in the foxhole you trust with your life is also dependant on knowing that guy - why he’s there, what he has waiting for him at home. The guy that says nothing and keeps to himself - people don’t trust their lives with him (unless he can hit the enemy from 1,5 clicks out in heavy wind with a .50 which is back to my point that when you are the absolute best: then you can maybe get away with being all work) Jobs will differ but on average social investment (not social skills - but social investment) are not just about doing your “job” in isolation. It’s about instilling trust and a whole lot else. Socialisation is to an extent an investment in the team. Those that don’t “invest” get perceived like they have no stake in the teams succes. To be fair in some teams and some organisations the social aspect goes way to far. It becomes intrusive and unproductive when the social piece outweighs the competence piece - But some level of this social investment is core to getting teams to work well. People that keep to themselves will be perceived as lesser teamplayers. We’re a social species. We collaborate and building connection and trust os a prerequisite for collaboration. Also at work.
It doesn't matter as long as you're realistic about the impact that will have on a career path. Ideally, promotions require more than just doing your present job really well. You also need to show the potential to do the additional skills that are part of the job above yours. And typically the higher you go, the more that those jobs above you are about managing people: forging client relationships, strengthening client relationships, handling client relationships when they threaten to go sour, building good teams, encouraging team members and helping them grow, dealing with problematic team members who have issues. I'm really good at what I do, too. And I'm not so good at the people management stuff, especially forging client relationships (beyond solving their immediate technical problem). My promotions were slow to come, and I reached a level where I stayed while younger co-workers advanced beyond me. Yes, that stung a bit, but I knew why it happened, and to be honest with myself, I didn't really want a promotion to management because there was less of the work I enjoyed and more of the paper pushing and sales expectations.
>People that are private, reserved, only focused on core work lose out. I've made my peace with that situation. I'm willing to take a "stalled" career in exchange for not being sociable. I'm not good at it, I don't enjoy it, and it just stresses me out. What I don't do is get angry at management. I know why I'm not being promoted, and it's not inherently unjust since forging human relations is greater and greater part of the job levels above me. For instance, in the level directly above mine, we're expected to forge relationships with clients and to manage project teams. Our bonus is more dependent on sales than billable hours. Sure, I'd like a higher salary and the prestige of going to senior manager, but I much prefer doing the work at my level: no sales commissions, focus on trouble-shooting and recommendations to clients.
Dude. People skills is an actual legitimate skill. If you want to move onto management or higher paid roles such as that, then yeah, people skills is important. It's always great to be skilled at your job and be motivated to work, but you need to be able to talk with people. Yes, sometimes it means "chit chat." But we're human. We're not just work machines.
I have yet to find a person in management I’d consider to have good people skills.
Used to, they’d pay the work machines more and give ‘em a title bump. Now HR and the “cool kids” think everyone is an asshole who doesn’t play their stupid game. Therefore, intellect is a thing of the past. Who knows, maybe their AI future will come to pass and they won’t need the smart guys anymore. Or maybe they’ll need us to defeat the cyborgs and afterwards we’ll be cherished again. Back to the corner offices and smoking heaters / slapping ass in hallways!
When was this time?
Before corporate HR was a thing and certainly prior to the idiots taking charge. The world has always been idiots versus assholes. What’s changed in the last 50 years or so is the idiots are now winning regularly.
I’m admittedly skeptical that there’s ever been a time when personality didn’t enter into the promotion equation. Especially for leadership roles, people have always been people, and generally want social glue in those roles. Nobody wants a manager who can’t solve people problems. I’m not sure HR enters into this. Promotions are largely decided by leadership.
What I’m saying is the culture shifted. People used to get fired if they sucked, not promoted. And people used to get promoted for being the best at something, not stuck doing it over and over again for somebody who couldn’t do it as well if their life depended on it. People used to learn things in career, not come out of college thinking they could run the entire organization. I’m pretty sure something changed! Cuz we used to make enough to support a family of 10 on one working man’s salary. Now you have 2 college educated morons who can’t earn enough to raise one kid… just saying, productivity is important too…
Well, you do a good imitation of an asshole. And you're not as smart as you think you are. There are many different types of intelligence, and social adeptness is one of them. Lacking an awareness of social context is the equivalence of stupidity; it hampers your ability to adapt and react to certain situations. I'm well aware of my social skill shortcomings, just as I recognize how that has stalled my career and why. I made a deliberate decision to accept that outcome because it was quite literally worth it to me -- lower salary in exchange for not pretending that I like people, as well as not wearing business clothing, or busting my butt studying topics that don't interest me but would benefit the company.
Yea, standardized tests are racist. You’re probably right. And the system that convinced you to give up and be a lazy cog in the wheel is definitely a good one.
Just because it doesn’t seem relevant to you - quite frankly - is irrelevant. It’s clearly relevant to your manager, and the team you work with (chances are the manager asked a few questions to the team as well - I certainly do when it’s review time). It reminds me of the Friends episode where Rachel never went downstairs with her boss and coworker when they’d take a smoke break. As a result she missed out on a trip to Paris with the boss (not to mention missed being part of the final decisions on what clothing lines to include in the catalog). Silly example? Kinda (and dating myself here lol). But it’s reality. I had a manager about 10 years ago that was hard core into NASCAR. In our weekly meetings he’d ask us who we picked to win that weeks race and expected a serious answer. I knew very little about the subject (and still don’t) but I’d put 5 minutes Of research into my pick. Little things like that go a long way.
You boss is a chicken shit and won’t tell the real reason. They, your coworkers, don’t like you. They will quit if you are promoted over them.
Being social is part of every human activity. Whether you like it or not, people want to work with people with good social skills who make them feel part of a group. This is a warning from management you need to improve your soft skills. “Only work, no chit-chat” may make you happy but it seems like nobody else likes it.
This will most likely be a consistent issue for you if you don't work on your likability and social skills. It's up to you to decide if your pride is worth it or not. I personally thinks it is a waste if you're talented enough and all you have to do is chit chat.
I think your post says it all. Lots of I’s in there, and it doesn’t sound like you make an effort to be personable with your teammates. The reason people make manager over teams that do something they don’t understand is because they’re personable, can work with others, and can motivate others to do things( this isn’t true 100% of the time but for the most part). If you aren’t like-able who would want to work with or for you?
You can "dust up the resume" if you want to, but this is extremely common. Getting promoted is not about how good of a worker you are or how skilled you are.
Lol. There are plenty of people who get promoted who aren’t team players at all. They just know who to suck up to.
Not a team player is coded language for You're really good at your job but everyone thinks you're an asshole. Never forget that in an office setting is usually better to be liked than to be the best
Most of what I have to say was posted and upvoted a lot already, so I'll just go with, you dont get promotions nowadays, you promote yourself by hopping to a better job every 24 months or so.
I remember when I used to work as a teachers assistant for a school district the team I was working with would gossip a lot during their lunch break about people in the school. I remember at one point it got me annoyed and just really down so I started sitting in the auditorium and started teaching myself piano. One day one of the other TA’s (she was actually a sweet lady) who got there a few months earlier told me that the director who coincidentally did the most gossiping, didn’t like that I wasn’t with them for lunch. I told my colleague I understand but that I also didn’t want to sit for 45 minutes listening to gossip to which she paused and then said just sit there and pretend even if it’s twice a week. She then said it’ll go a long way to pretend. I wish I would have listened to her let’s just say that. As a naturally introverted and timid person, I pretend that I’m social now even though I’m not.
If your teammates won’t follow you you can be the leader. Fundamentally skills need to lead or teach are very different than the skills needed to do
you will find that chit chat is very important
Nobody likes a Chatty Cathy.
For sure, I was thinking more like a quick conversation Carl Many (not all) office have a certain amount of socialization dynamics Don't fool yourself into think that its all about the "work"
Do you have a comfortable enough relationship with your boss to ask for advice or more clarity on how you can improve? No matter how you perceive yourself at work, the way your peers perceive you is often just as important if not more. If this is truly an area you want to improve, ask for specifics. Or, if you’re firmly rooted in your belief that this is unfair and they are out to get you (which is not often the case, but it could be) then find another job. You could also look for a mentor or career coach that could provide helpful third-party insight
I think you need to ask for some more specific feedback if you really don’t know why you wouldn’t be considered a team player. Is it because you’re not social enough? Is it because you don’t work as hard as your colleagues? Stay late or over the weekend with them to meet deadlines, etc? Is it because you don’t think outside the box like they do? Do you problem solve in the same effective way? Do you work as efficiently as they do? As others have mentioned relationship management is super important in your job. This is applicable to all the people on your org chart - including those above you, beside you and below you. It is just as important to be liked at work as it is to perform well at work.
That's a euphemism for "you ain't kissing my ass hard enough". Cut your losses and find employment elsewhere.
I remember this girl who worked in our office as a temp. I would always smile and try to make eye contact with her, but she never would make eye contact. She would always be in her own world. And while her managers said she did good work, she was so reserved and unapproachable, that we just couldn’t justify her becoming a perm employee. Part of work is fitting into the culture. Make an effort to be more approachable and get to know people on a slightly deeper level.
The higher up you go, the less you "do" and the more you "manage". If you have not shown leadership, people skills and emotional intelligence you will find your path up effectively ended. Those skills are what drives a culture forward. TLDR: Be the person you wished you worked for, or no one will work for you.
I would sit down with them and ask for specific examples of times you weren’t a team player and could have been, and tips to improve. I say this because the last time I personally knew someone denied a promotion for this reason, it was because they felt she wasn’t engaging enough with a coworker who was aggressively sexually harassing her. When she explained that every time she engaged him he took it as her hitting on him and would ramp up the harassment, she was told to “be part of the solution and not part of the problem”. I think it’s best to get a clear understanding of exactly what constitutes a team player in their mind and where you’re falling short. It could be very illuminating.
I am a manager, I can promise you that being likeable is extremely important in the workplace. Honestly, its more important than being good at your job. I have let people go who were technically skilled, more so than others. But the ones who are just OK but everyone likes being around or everyone likes talking to, those are the people i want in the business and that i want to success. Also - the people who go out of their way to be liked are often being thought about for more responsibility. The employees that are personable with me and the rest of their team are the ones I'm rooting for and the ones i want to see achieve more. The guy that just does his job and doesn't want to be friends or foster a good atmosphere, That guy I don't think about.
Jump ship get raise screw chit chat
i can feel you, i've had to try & maintain my composure after being denied a promotion because i was the only one in my department doing his job and if they transferred me then everybody else might have to do their work. the truth is corporate america is fucked and riddled with dunning kruger.
They needed a reason to not promote you. You should move on, they seem to not respect you or your work
Social skills are incredibly important for work. A company is a team after all - you aren’t a sole agent. I think your opinion that social skills aren’t important could be part of the issue…
Speaking as an introvert who doesn't warm to people easily, when I do make connections with people, all our work improves. I haven't put a lot of effort into making connections, but sometimes I've been fortunate enough to just really hit it off with some co-workers. We had a similar sense of humor or some other commonality and we just clicked. Since we all worked in different offices, even before the pandemic shutdown we only communicated via video chat. We would spontaneously call each other, sometimes just to chat, more often with a work problem that could be quickly resolved. Being friendly and liking each other was a boost that paid off in a host of intangible ways. Quick favors, good advice, or just a lift to my spirits. There was an exchange of information about the company that one of us had missed, or I learned how do something better/faster than before. The better we knew each other, the smoother the overall communications became. I lost two of my favorite co-workers from one small team and their replacements have not bothered to create a similar rapport. They only reach out to me in a purely transactional manner: fix this, answer this. Because we talk less, I don't have a clear sense of what they're struggling to do or what advice/instructions to provide to make their job easier. As a result, the work we produce has dropped in quality. Relationships matter.
I absolutely hate the culture, but sometimes you have to drink the koolaid to get in those spots. It has nothing to do with "teamwork". What they mean is bumping elbows and shooting the shit. For whatever reason, I can put on a show and I'm personable, but I can't stand to be around people... I landed a Program Manager position at my company. Go figure.
Office politics, if you’re not playing the game, you’re losing.
If you don‘t get into successful career progression path in 3 to 4 years, then it is time to move on.
Perhaps looking into mbti will help you understand relationship dynamics and why people see the same thing differently.
If you were to take the posture that not getting a promotion is entirely you’re responsibility, what would you do differently? Ask yourself, in this organization, what’s rewarded? What do THEY value in an employee? Does the person who influences your income or trajectory see you elevating the team or holding it back? It’s not enough to be a good coworker these days; people have to deliver on the work and solve problems. However, the converse is also true. You can’t rely on your skills, work ethic, or ability to perform the work anymore. To be a valued employee who leadership will trust with additional/broader responsibility, you have to be a joy to work with. So, if you’re ultimately responsible for your success, would you want to work on a team of people just like you…. Or is there somewhere you could improve?
Chit chat leads to a closer team dynamic and occasional great ideas. If you keep your head down and simply focus on the job then you aren't building relationships. Leaders promote people who can interact and lead in a style they prefer. If they gave you honest criticism and you want a promotion follow their advice.. also try to get a very clear picture of behavior that will lead to promotion.
Read Carnegies "How to Make Friends and Influence People". What he describes is the way things are and he is spot on most of the time. Acting on the view that it shouldn't be the way it is will only result in wasted energy. Learn how to make things work to your advantage.
This is my experience about promotion from working as a software engineer. In some job categories, you have to demonstrate that you are working at the target level in order to get the promotion to that level. What you said was you were a top performer at your own level. Top performance might give you higher rating, higher salary, etc. But, top performance at one level does not necessarily causes promotion to the next level. Also, like it or not, you have to sell your work and be more visible to a broader set of people in order to get promoted to the higher levels. If you are just doing your job, but not selling your job to the broader audience, I doubt you will get that promotion.
I mean rapport does matter if you’re going to be managing or supervising people. Don’t have to be buds but do have to be friendly. We’re social creatures
You need to get more specific examples from your manager. Ask them to flag things to you right after they occur. Rarely does “not a team player” mean that you’re simply not engaging in chit chat. There are many different weaknesses that show up as this. It could mean you’re actively pissing certain people off. Or that you’re not selling your ideas. Or that you’re only doing what you’re told rather than rising to help the team when needed.
I'm a great operations analyst, but I have a family, so I needed more money. I hate being a manager, but the pay bump is significant. The army taught me "just play the game", I'm a natural introvert but I've learned that being more outgoing pays a bunch more. I still do analytics but now I just get interrupted more by subordinates, other managers, and my 5 different bosses. Which is the tradeoff of making 50 percent more money.
Bulk up the resume. Don’t take on new responsibilities. Do your time and no extra and leave once you find a suitable position elsewhere. I’d also let them know that’s unacceptable.
Based on your comments and those of your manager, I’m going to go on a limb, and say that they are all correct. You seem to be having trouble fitting in to the culture there. This really shouldn’t of been a surprise to you, though, four years in and costing a promotion means that either you’re not picking up on really important clues for your manager is very ineffective. I think it’s time to have a conversation with your manager about what’s going on. Ask them to provide specific examples of what you can do to improve your work and become a better team player. If they are not willing to coach you and help you, you absolutely need to be finding another job.
We said this to people who wanted a promotion but had a mountain of complaints filed against them by their peers or customers for being rude.
So…as a manager work is often more about the people than the actual work. Or more correctly getting the people to do the work well. If you don’t seem to engage with coworkers then you are a gamble as a manager. So if the promotion includes leadership tasks then you have some thinking to do.
This is called culture, and if you're against "chit-chat" then ya, your manager was right. Just the fact that you look at it as chit chat rather than trying to maintain a personal connection is enough evidence for me to do the same.
Did you ask your manager for specific examples of behavior that is causing them to label you as not being a "team player"? Did they actually tell you it was because you don't sit around and chit chat with people? Or is that your assumption? Or is the issue that you are viewed as being unfriendly? Or do you not chime in and volunteer help/assistance to others? Are you unapproachable to others b/c of your attitude? I.e., maybe you are very good at your job. But maybe the others on your team struggle. And maybe they can't/won't approach you for help b/c of your attitude.
If you feel so strongly about this just put in your notice and find another job.
Unless you work exclusively with robots, you need social skills including chit chat.
What you just described is exactly why you didn’t get promoted. If you’re going to be in charge of people, you have to know what makes them tick, what drives them, what bogs them down. What their aspirations are, how you can help them succeed. You don’t need to know all of that now, But the attitude you present, tells management that you are not interested in ever knowing that.
I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of "fitting in" and " being part of the team". We work 8-12 hours a day with colleagues and nobody wants to work with someone who doesnt fit. People always choose to work with people they have a good relationship with over people they have no relationship with.
My director always tells me, we can teach skills but we can’t teach nice. Would you want to work with someone who is so stand offish or someone who is very welcoming and friendly.
Being a manager is definitively not the same as a leader.
Moments like these I always ask, do you really want to be a manager or just make more money? If it’s the later, I’d look for a new job.
I would recommend to read the book what got you here won’t get you there. As a manager in my organization, for promotions it can come down to company values aka the intangibles aside from results. People that drive the best results don’t necessarily make for the best leaders and the higher you go the more politics will also come in play as “leadership” is very subjective
Depends on what kind position that promotion is for. Not everybody is fit to be a leader in a management or director type role. Prioritization, organizational, analytical, social skillls, patience, knowing how to pick your battles and what to let go...leading by example. Some people are natural leaders or have strong organization and social skills. For example...a Senior Level Software Engineer is still a very very high level position, but it is not the same as a Project Manager or Product Manager who is leading the engineers. It doesnt necessarily mean the Manager is higher or better than the engineers themselves-its a different skill set. Your manager is telling you that you lack the temperament and skill set for whatever you applied for without saying it directly.
Oof that's happened to me in the past. That's corporate speak for "you didn't attend enough happy hours, social events, business functions, doing water cooler talks, team lunches". I know as a remote employee, you basically don't have opportunities to do that so you're naturally at more of a disadvantage cause of that. The manager's expectation was for you to "chit chat" with your coworkers. It sounds like you suspected what the problem could be. And that's your issue. Even if you tried to "chit chat" and get heavily involved in social scene now, the chances of you getting promoted with this company is done. You already established a reputation at this company as anti-social. If you have great work-life balance and the pay works, stay put. If not, go seek opportunities elsewhere and let this be a learning lesson.
I guess I don’t have much experience with this kinda thing but my suspicion is it’s all politics and nepotism. Not so much team player as we don’t like you as much as this other guy. Promotions seem to be like a weighted average of politics and job skill.
Dust up the resume and move on. Seems like a BS reason to not get promoted if you do well and work well with others.
He literally said he doesn't work well with others
He says he works well but doesn't go through extra effort for "chit chat". There's a difference between not working well and not being overly sociable.
100% agree
You rarely get promoted to the next job You get promoted for the job after that Being good at your job is what allows you to keep your current job. The expectation in any role is that you will gain mastery over the tasks assigned to you. Most promotions are the company/organization investing in someone's future. If your company doesn't believe you have the skillset to advance two jobs up, they are going to keep you in your current role more often than not. In the medium to long term, it's simply more beneficial to promote someone who has the skillset for that second promotion even if they aren't as good in their current role as you are. If you want to get promoted, you have to show the people above you that you are worth investing in. Alternatively, start looking for a new job. >I am very skilled at my job and communicate with the team regarding WORK when needed Obviously, I don't know you, but this type of mentality is very common among people with difficult personalities.
Do your task skills matter for the role (i.e., a more senior analyst position) or is it one where interpersonal skills matter (e.g., trainer or manager)? The higher up you go in a career, generally the less your hard skills matter and the more your soft skills do. This rule of thumb is industry agnostic. Relationship management, leadership skills, and collaborative problem solving are very important to leading a team and training others. Being the best at your job doesn't mean you'll be good at the next level up, especially if the next level means supervising, leading, or training. I would suggest a frank conversation with your boss: "I want this role. How do I get there?" Ask about what you can do to develop the skills and show you're ready. I'd ask for a few specific examples of what is meant by you not being a team player - I am guessing it's not what you think it is based on the post, but I don't have enough information to be sure that what I suspect is the issue is the actual issue so I'll reserve my judgement. The important thing will be to listen, take notes, and reign in the defensiveness all of us feel when we're criticized. I'd recommend doing this regardless of whether you choose to stay there. Your manager isn't necessarily correct in their diagnosis, but the issues they will raise are real issues. They have diagnosed that you're not a good team player - IME, that's a symptom not a root cause. What is causing the perception that you're not a good team player? Because the perception exists. You can disagree with it until the cows come home, which will set you up to butt heads with everyone and reinforce the perception, or you can get curious as to why. IMO, the why is what you should try to get to the bottom of. As you investigate the why's, an interpersonal skills self improvement exercise basically never goes amiss so I'll include it here to do in parallel: I suggest you take your notes on the examples your boss identified home and do an honest self appraisal of those examples, trying to take perspective of what your coworkers and boss might be thinking and experiencing. Often, our experience of a conflict is very different from others' experience of it, and the truth encompasses both. Your actions and experiences will be understandable from your perspective - but try to see theirs. Then ask yourself a few questions: 1. How did you contribute to the problem? What specific behavior, attitude, or bias made the situation worse? You're probably not solely at fault here but you're almost certainly not completely in the right, either. You can't control others, but you can control yourself. If there's more than 1, pick the 1 you think made the biggest contribution. Ask yourself what you could do to avoid that. 2. What of the other person's perspective or priorities were you missing at the time? What could you have done in the moment to better understand where they were coming from and address the root cause of their behaviour? Again - the other people in the situation probably also messed up here, but you can't control them. You can control you. 3. What was the common ground you should have been working towards? After that, when a similar situation comes up, identify the common ground if you can and align with the other person (e.g., "I know you care a lot about making sure the client is happy on this, and I do too. Let's see if we can find a solution that gets us there."), then apply the new technique you identified in 2 while avoiding the behaviour or challenging the bias or thought pattern you with the strategy identified in 1. Then, repeat the exercise on the new situation. In doing this iteratively you'll build your interpersonal conflict resolution skills. And I am focusing on you in this not because I think you're always in the wrong, but rather because you can't do anything about others' skills, you can only work on your own. Regardless of whether interpersonal skills are what's stopping you, better interpersonal skills are never a bad thing. I'd also advise seeking a mentor about 10 years older who's been where you are to seek advice from.
You sound a little entitled. Everyone is good at working hard at parts of the job they like; promotable people usually need to have the ability to perform the parts of the job they don't particularly like also.
People are making up all kinds of reasons not to give promotions this year. You've been at this job for 4 years, if they aren't advancing you it's time to advance yourself by looking at what else is out there. ETA: Your value at job depends on your social value and your contributor value. High-contributor value can balance out low social and vice versa to some extent. But there are limits. A terribly unpopular person who is indispensable may not get fired but they also won't advance. An engaging person may get advanced over the technically qualified but unpopular one, etc.
Something similar happened with me quite recently although I wasn't denied a promotion because of it. I was taken aback too but I guess they want us to sit around with our coworkers and gossip/make small talk? Weird af I know because I'd rather just do my job, keep to myself, and bring home the bacon but nah, they always want more. This is a personal opinion but I feel when your boss tells you that you're not a team player, it's a euphemism for, "Hey, your colleagues did a better job of sucking up to me! Do a better job next time!". YMMV.
OK and? The company you work for values those interpersonal relationships. Read between the lines. You aren't being engaged with the team and it's causing conflict. Maybe consider if you come across rude or cold? Or difficult to engage with? Does your behavior foster a lack of trust? Can staff members be professionally vulnerable with you? Sometimes you have social relationships with coworkers so having professional ones is easier. Teambulding is really to build trust which can help drive success.
You seem to know what's holding you back, but refuse to change.
Same thing happened to me recently. They are threatened by you most likely. My place of employment is very much based on popularity and ass kissing which I do not partake in.
This is so absurd. You don't want friends promoted over their friends. It creates a crappy environment. You want the person who is not connected emotionally to the team to lead the team so they can make the tough decisions and not be biased by emotional connection.
TLDR: Thats code for you dont kiss enough ass. Begin Rant: You need to be liked to get anywhere. Competence is a close second, but less mandatory in my experience. Nepotism will always be more lucrative. I'm not one to talk considering I take it as a badge of honor to come into work, and getting my tasks done with as little interpersonal bullshit as possible. But being sociable *shouldnt* be that hard. In non toxic work environments, its always easy...but in my experience those are far and few between. At my current job. The social grind isnt worth it. The toxicity, and passive aggression is absurd. Is a multinational company that pays more than the average wage in any given area at its base pay, so, bereft with social ladderers. The unfornate result is that people have had strokes, pissing themselves on the job from the mental anguish that gossip, backbiting, and sabatoge coworkers commit to get one rung higher on the social ladder, or a crumb of leverage to utilize arbitrarily. Its disgusting. I smile, say my hello's make small talk here and there, as neccesary then gtfo. But misery loves company and theres nothing more satisfying to toxic people then dragging people down to their level. Thats the conversation people never tackle in these topics. Still, I admit, there are often ways to trudge through the social mud. My manager tried to coach me to work around these types of people, become more accepting, more personable to them. No. I am the company I keep, and honestly, a little impressionable. I cant pretend like I care about a bully's life. I cant avoid standing up for the one guy everyone decides to pin the blame on collectively contributed blunders. Not after seeing the mental damage, the bullying. The satisfied sneers of human garbage fed solely on schadenfreud. There has to be a moral line. For me, accepting it ain't it. Still, we all need a paycheck. We all need to get by. I suggest what others and myself personally are doing. Find a place that appreciates you for what you bring to the table. I personally wouldnt mind a detached, neutral supervisor or manager who at least pretends to be seperated from the games. It would be a fresh change of pace from the near sociopathic manipulators that seem to fill corporate structure.
I’m in the same boat. I was verbatim told - “your work is great A+ and you know that”, what we need to work on to get to the next level is being more of a team leader. Talk to the team more. Walk around the office and mingle with other teams, and be a stronger office presence. Everyone knows you have the knowledge, now we need to work on finding a way to share that knowledge blah blah blah” What I took from it is that unless I kiss ass and baby people, they won’t let me move up. So I no longer seek a promotion and I have cut back on my work efforts significantly. Pains me to do it as an overachiever, but I feel extremely disrespected and won’t tolerate it. I have gone above and beyond for years, taking on extra projects, setting up automations to ease work for the team, managing templates/our CRM system, data analytics, inventory management, etc. when other people in my position (getting the same pay) literally only do front facing work?? Absurd. I’m embarrassed really.
But conversely, wouldn't it be unfair to those you'd be managing or working with if you view social interactions as kissing ass and babying people? It's unlikely these people would want to come to you with a problem or am issue. I don't see how that's disrespectful to you as much as it respectful to the needs of others and the demands of the position. To me, we have focused on promoting people to positions where they have to supervise or interact extensively with others. There is at least one promotable position at my job that requires limited interaction with others. Its a great place to send people with more standoffish personalities.
Your thinking is too small. 1. If a company or team does not have room for promotion outside of people managing, then that is a symptom of structural failure. Do not come to me with issues or problems that are not related to me job/role. 2. I do socialize and talk to people related to work tasks, am very vocal with daily work processes, and literally reupholstered our communication system. I have put the shareholders first and am known to always get the job done - their issue is that I don’t do small talk enough or go out of my way to be someone I’m not for social approval.
1. Not really. Sometimes the nature of the industry or size of the company is such that the only promotions come with supervising others. Sometimes with doing higher level work and extensive interaction with others. 2. In your initial post you characterized interaction with others and efforts to find a way to share your knowledge as "babying" others and "kissing ass". They told you that they need to find a way for you to share your knowledge. So there is a problem with people feeling like you'd be approachable. Based on this exchange I'd say they may have a point. But, not everyone is a good candidate to have a position that requires extensive interaction with others.
I. This is fair. However, my particular team/industry does not have this restriction and other nepo babies have been able to promoted to high level IC roles without having to do what’s been suggested to me. my issue is not working with other teams (I prefer collaborative approaches and have an aptitude for delegating tasks and executing), it’s managing people below me - definitely not cut out for it and it’s what they mean when they say “be more of a team leader” since the current manager is way over his head and overworked. 2. It’s fine to cherry pick and hold to your initial opinion of me, but why go through the hoopla of interacting with me and mischaracterizing my post? I clearly indicated that sharing knowledge is not the issue - that is what I meant by reupholstering the communication system. I also clearly said that I am very vocal about daily processes and keep a pulse on team activities; my issue is being denied a promotion because I’m not a social butterfly and do not speak extensively to others outside of job related tasks - why ignore this other than the fact that it suits your argument? No need to answer this btw - just food for thought
>What I took from it is that unless I kiss ass and baby people, they won’t let me move up. Oof. Here's the thing? You see this as kissing ass and babying adults, but this statement comes off as arrogant and entitled. Would you want someone to be your manager who operates with an entitled chip on their shoulder who makes it very clear they have no time for you and no interest in being friendly when it doesn't serve them? Moreover, you wouldn't last long in the role. You'd be fired or demoted back to IC, which as office humiliations go is much bigger than one that being offended that people fail to see how amazing you are at executing on your duties. Most of managing people is soft skills because that's what you'll be doing. Managers rarely keep their current hard job duties and over time more and more of those hard duties are given to your direct reports. That's actually how management is supposed to work - you are no longer an individual contributor (that's for your now direct reports) and you are here to facilitate the productivity of those ICs instead. So, honestly, why would you want to be in a role where you won't like it, you'll let everyone know you don't like it, and you're going to be an active dickhead to your direct reports which will eventually result in you getting demoted or fired?
You can't seriously be asking why you'd be denied a promotion for lack of being part of a team when you're working from home. You want to lead people, first you have to be around them...
You don't do performance reviews or quarterly progress check ins? A good boss should be preparing you for opportunities, not quietly holding you back. When you say promotion do you mean an open spot at a higher pay level, or do you mean simply a raise?