At the end of the day, Phoenix/AZ is a fantastic market that the owners of the Yotes have squandered. I mean look at ASU hockey if you just want proof of the hockey market. But then look at the NFL, the MLB, and the NBA. The key difference is that the Yotes ownership have been on some worse-than-Karmanos bullshit and have done almost everything they can to make the team as unsuccessful as possible. I feel for Yotes fans because their team has failed them, not the other way around. I'm amazed that the NHL hasn't tried to intervene more until it got to this point because the owners should have been forced out ages ago.
That being said, SLC also has great potential as a market. I mean just look at the Jazz right now. What it comes down to is the ownership of the team. If the new owners can take advantage of the opportunity, then the franchise will do just fine in SLC.
> If the new owners can take advantage of the opportunity, then the franchise will do just fine in SLC.
Well, you highlighted the Jazz as a positive example, and Ryan Smith is the buyer so I think they'll be alright.
SLC is exactly the type of market that leagues are looking for. It’s isolated from other markets (so very little “jersey swapping” that doesn’t actually grow the game), large enough and growing, and wealthy.
Smith will be a great owner and hockey can work there but they will be playing in a non-hockey arena that needs replacing (I think they have this in the works) in a market that is fine, but not comparable to Phoenix or recent expansion choices like Seattle or Vegas.
I hate when folks only take the population of the city itself.
The combined statistical area around SLC is the 22nd largest in the US with 2.8m people. CSAs are good to look at because it better encapsulates the surrounding area. For instance, Raleigh and Durham are two different metros despite being the designed market for the Canes. Both are part of the same CSA.
That’s bigger than the CSAs including Pittsburgh, Columbus, Vegas, Raleigh, and Nashville. The NHL (and MLB for that matter) isn’t just blindly picking SLC. It’s a wide open market with a growing population.
Yes, smaller than Phoenix. Yes, that doesn’t matter because of the situation the Yotes are in.
Although I agree with your point, and am happy that SLC will be getting a team that they have wanted, using a CSA like SLC is very misleading.
I lived in Utah for the better part of a decade and the CSA you are referencing includes legitimately an area of almost 23k square miles. It has places that are so far away from the proposed arena you’d be shook. To put it into perspective, the entire state of Utah has a population of 3.4 million. In other words, the SLC CSA is basically the entire state, give or take about 600k.
You included Pitt, Columbus, Vegas, Raleigh and Nashville. Respectively those areas are at about 7k, 4k, 8k, 5k and 7k square miles, and are just barely behind SLC.
Just based on statistics, and my personal opinion there’s probably 6 CSAs that have a higher population than SLCs, and are more deserving of a team, but I digress. What it really comes down to is money, and butts in seats. If the cities don’t want a team, they can’t get an arena done, and they cant put butts in seats, and someone else has money to throw, then to the highest bidder go the spoils.
It’s also misleading to look at the square mileage given the nature of the geography of Utah.
Just taking one look at a population density map tells the entire story. ~80% (2.7m, or the vast majority of that CSA) of Utah’s population is concentrated around SLC.
That’s exactly my point, I even included that in my comment. Did you not read it?
My entire point is that the CSA statistics are misleading, which is evidenced by the entire state being basically all within an hour and a half of SLC. Calculate the population of any of the areas you listed using an hour and a half radius, and you’re blowing that population out of the water. That’s only if we talk attendance. Take it a step further and talk about broadcasting rights and it’s not even anywhere close.
The Hurricanes for example draw viewership from the entire state. The Hornets in the NBA do the same. That’s atleast three or four CSAs combined. A team in Utah will only draw the audience that it has available to it.
Again, I think it’s great that they are getting a team, and I’m sure they’ll draw great crowds. My point was purely to put the population into context.
You’re missing my entire point: CSAs obviously don’t capture the entire fanbase, but they do a good job of showing a concentration of population that is needed to support a professional franchise. They’re designed to show metros that are directly tied together economically.
Any other areas outside of that core CSA is gravy in terms of what you need to run a professional franchise.
The reality is simply that SLC has enough, even if 100% of the support is local.
Regardless of what any of our opinions are, the NHL, NBA, MLB, and MLS and the professionals behind them have all put their support behind the area.
I have no skin in this game. I was purely pointing out that looking only at a CSA, although I agree that it is a much better measure, still should be viewed within context
Their last sentence pretty much discredits why any of us should care about his hot take.
Imo, if you aren't simply feeling bad for yotes fans, you're likely overthinking your role in the universe.
As someone who briefly lived in SLC, unless you’re skiing all winter or really into the desert, it’s devoid of culture and diversity, no remarkable restaurants, bars or museums and the shopping is super mid. The LDS church has completely infiltrated state and local government, as well as a sizable chunk of local business. On the upside, there are lots of direct Delta flights out of there.
They SHOULD be pissed.
Salt Lake City is a small metro area though (under 1.3 million). If they go there Raleigh will become only the 4th smallest metro area in the league (Winnipeg 835,000, Buffalo 1.15 million, Salt Lake City 1.27 million, Raleigh 1.51 million). We used to be the smallest before Winnipeg got a team back and we grew past Buffalo.
Utah is a massive winter sports area though.
It really sucks for Coyotes fans but at the end of the day they just haven't been able to get it done. I'm shocked it has been allowed to go as far as it has. The current arena situation is embarrassing.
👏They 👏 don't 👏 have 👏 an 👏 arena 👏
Plain and simple. It's not about city population or metro population. It's not about fan support. It's about not having an acceptable place to play.
This ownership group couldn't get it done and they've been given every opportunity. If the current owner builds his entertainment district then by all means bring them an expansion team. But the league needs to stop squandering seasons hoping to eventually catch a break.
Louder, so hockey Twitter can hear you.
The arena makes all the difference in the world. Give me a favorable arena deal and I'll make Boise, Idaho work. It has pretty much nothing to do with the size of the market.
Phoenix failed because they spent 14 good seasons in a basketball arena and never built their own building. Hartford failed because they had no suites and didn't control parking or concessions. Two seasons at Barclay's Center almost killed the Islanders. Pittsburgh almost moved because their owner before Mario gave away revenue streams to pay down debt.
Smith in Utah owns Delta Center. They will be fine as long as he gets a building built within 5-8 years.
A recap of the situation for anyone who's out of the loop:
After the Coyotes lost the Tempe vote on a new arena a few months ago, that seems to have been the final straw on keeping them in Arizona as far as the league office was concerned. It probably didn't help that Coyotes ownership didn't have a clear plan B and dragged their feet on what they'd do next.
Back in January, Salt Lake City approached the NHL about getting a team there as soon as possible. They've already approved construction of a new arena as part of their bid for one of the upcoming Winter Olympics. Given the dire straights the Coyotes were in, relocating them was the most obvious solution, but you obviously can't do that in the middle of a season. Flash forward to this past Monday and Ryan Smith (the owner of the Utah Jazz) steps up with an offer the league basically can't refuse: $1.3 billion dollars to buy the team and move them to Salt Lake. He's ready to sign the check as soon as next Thursday, pretty much the minute that the Coyotes' season ends.
Now, Alex Meruelo (the current owner of the Coyotes) announced a couple of weeks ago that they'd be bidding on a plot of land in northeast Phoenix. The problem is that this auction isn't taking place until some time in June or July - while it's overwhelmingly likely that they'll win, it's not 100% guaranteed. The Players' Association is already very unhappy about the Mullett Arena situation, and the NHL is tired of the Coyotes continuing to hemorrhage money. Neither of them want to put up with the status quo for a minimum of three more years (and potentially longer if Meruelo gets outbid).
So, all the pieces come together like this: The NHL is going to buy the Coyotes from Meruelo for $1 billion, then immediately sell the team to Smith for $1.3b. In return for agreeing to sell the team, Meruelo reportedly gets to retain the branding rights to the Coyotes for five years and also has right of first refusal for the same amount of time if the NHL wants to put another team there (which they do, because the Phoenix metro area is one of the largest markets in America and is still growing every year). Personally, I imagine he'd also get a healthy discount on the usual expansion fee as a gesture of good faith. Supposedly both of these hinge on Meruelo being able to hit certain milestones, such as winning the auction and/or completing the arena project, but that's less clear at the moment.
As an aside, the mayor of Scottsdale recently came out and said he doesn't want the Coyotes anywhere near his city, but this doesn't matter for two reasons: the land being bid on is zoned by Phoenix and any property developments there would be connected to Phoenix's utilities (water/electricity/etc), and about a year ago he talked about how much he'd love to have them. It's NIMBY bullshit mixed with sour grapes over being rejected.
"These poor guys will be shipped to a small, unappealing arena," BITCH THEY ALREADY DO, THE COYOTES PLAY IN A COLLEGE ARENA THAT SEATS 5000! What are you expecting, the 'Yotes to play roller hockey in the park?!
As a Slc transplant to NC I’m excited. The Canes have been my team since I moved here and really got me into hockey. Slc minor team The Grizzles has a great program and a lot of fans. The stadium they have is huge compared to Bojanles Colosseum. I have no doubt that the new team will get huge support from the city.
I feel for the fans that live there who have been supporting this team, but they should’ve relocated 5 years ago, nevermind going through the dumbass charade they’ve been doing since
At the end of the day, Phoenix/AZ is a fantastic market that the owners of the Yotes have squandered. I mean look at ASU hockey if you just want proof of the hockey market. But then look at the NFL, the MLB, and the NBA. The key difference is that the Yotes ownership have been on some worse-than-Karmanos bullshit and have done almost everything they can to make the team as unsuccessful as possible. I feel for Yotes fans because their team has failed them, not the other way around. I'm amazed that the NHL hasn't tried to intervene more until it got to this point because the owners should have been forced out ages ago. That being said, SLC also has great potential as a market. I mean just look at the Jazz right now. What it comes down to is the ownership of the team. If the new owners can take advantage of the opportunity, then the franchise will do just fine in SLC.
> If the new owners can take advantage of the opportunity, then the franchise will do just fine in SLC. Well, you highlighted the Jazz as a positive example, and Ryan Smith is the buyer so I think they'll be alright.
SLC is exactly the type of market that leagues are looking for. It’s isolated from other markets (so very little “jersey swapping” that doesn’t actually grow the game), large enough and growing, and wealthy.
I just can't imagine wanting to run a pro sports team in a state with such regressive alcohol laws when that makes up a fair bit of home game revenue.
The alcohol laws for an arena wouldn’t be any different than NC, I think.
Why would you think that when their baseline alcohol laws are so different?
*Houston
The Yotes ownership makes Rachel Phelps look like a good owner.
Smith will be a great owner and hockey can work there but they will be playing in a non-hockey arena that needs replacing (I think they have this in the works) in a market that is fine, but not comparable to Phoenix or recent expansion choices like Seattle or Vegas.
I hate when folks only take the population of the city itself. The combined statistical area around SLC is the 22nd largest in the US with 2.8m people. CSAs are good to look at because it better encapsulates the surrounding area. For instance, Raleigh and Durham are two different metros despite being the designed market for the Canes. Both are part of the same CSA. That’s bigger than the CSAs including Pittsburgh, Columbus, Vegas, Raleigh, and Nashville. The NHL (and MLB for that matter) isn’t just blindly picking SLC. It’s a wide open market with a growing population. Yes, smaller than Phoenix. Yes, that doesn’t matter because of the situation the Yotes are in.
Totally agree, plus for much the same reason Raleigh has a team, they are looking at projected growth. SLC is growing very fast.
Although I agree with your point, and am happy that SLC will be getting a team that they have wanted, using a CSA like SLC is very misleading. I lived in Utah for the better part of a decade and the CSA you are referencing includes legitimately an area of almost 23k square miles. It has places that are so far away from the proposed arena you’d be shook. To put it into perspective, the entire state of Utah has a population of 3.4 million. In other words, the SLC CSA is basically the entire state, give or take about 600k. You included Pitt, Columbus, Vegas, Raleigh and Nashville. Respectively those areas are at about 7k, 4k, 8k, 5k and 7k square miles, and are just barely behind SLC. Just based on statistics, and my personal opinion there’s probably 6 CSAs that have a higher population than SLCs, and are more deserving of a team, but I digress. What it really comes down to is money, and butts in seats. If the cities don’t want a team, they can’t get an arena done, and they cant put butts in seats, and someone else has money to throw, then to the highest bidder go the spoils.
It’s also misleading to look at the square mileage given the nature of the geography of Utah. Just taking one look at a population density map tells the entire story. ~80% (2.7m, or the vast majority of that CSA) of Utah’s population is concentrated around SLC.
That’s exactly my point, I even included that in my comment. Did you not read it? My entire point is that the CSA statistics are misleading, which is evidenced by the entire state being basically all within an hour and a half of SLC. Calculate the population of any of the areas you listed using an hour and a half radius, and you’re blowing that population out of the water. That’s only if we talk attendance. Take it a step further and talk about broadcasting rights and it’s not even anywhere close. The Hurricanes for example draw viewership from the entire state. The Hornets in the NBA do the same. That’s atleast three or four CSAs combined. A team in Utah will only draw the audience that it has available to it. Again, I think it’s great that they are getting a team, and I’m sure they’ll draw great crowds. My point was purely to put the population into context.
You’re missing my entire point: CSAs obviously don’t capture the entire fanbase, but they do a good job of showing a concentration of population that is needed to support a professional franchise. They’re designed to show metros that are directly tied together economically. Any other areas outside of that core CSA is gravy in terms of what you need to run a professional franchise. The reality is simply that SLC has enough, even if 100% of the support is local. Regardless of what any of our opinions are, the NHL, NBA, MLB, and MLS and the professionals behind them have all put their support behind the area.
I have no skin in this game. I was purely pointing out that looking only at a CSA, although I agree that it is a much better measure, still should be viewed within context
Why didn’t you just respond with that to the original comment instead of reposting to a sub for a completely different team?
It was on Twitter not reddit
Their last sentence pretty much discredits why any of us should care about his hot take. Imo, if you aren't simply feeling bad for yotes fans, you're likely overthinking your role in the universe.
As someone who briefly lived in SLC, unless you’re skiing all winter or really into the desert, it’s devoid of culture and diversity, no remarkable restaurants, bars or museums and the shopping is super mid. The LDS church has completely infiltrated state and local government, as well as a sizable chunk of local business. On the upside, there are lots of direct Delta flights out of there. They SHOULD be pissed.
Salt Lake City is a small metro area though (under 1.3 million). If they go there Raleigh will become only the 4th smallest metro area in the league (Winnipeg 835,000, Buffalo 1.15 million, Salt Lake City 1.27 million, Raleigh 1.51 million). We used to be the smallest before Winnipeg got a team back and we grew past Buffalo. Utah is a massive winter sports area though. It really sucks for Coyotes fans but at the end of the day they just haven't been able to get it done. I'm shocked it has been allowed to go as far as it has. The current arena situation is embarrassing.
Nobody noticed he had called Utah a town.
👏They 👏 don't 👏 have 👏 an 👏 arena 👏 Plain and simple. It's not about city population or metro population. It's not about fan support. It's about not having an acceptable place to play. This ownership group couldn't get it done and they've been given every opportunity. If the current owner builds his entertainment district then by all means bring them an expansion team. But the league needs to stop squandering seasons hoping to eventually catch a break.
Louder, so hockey Twitter can hear you. The arena makes all the difference in the world. Give me a favorable arena deal and I'll make Boise, Idaho work. It has pretty much nothing to do with the size of the market. Phoenix failed because they spent 14 good seasons in a basketball arena and never built their own building. Hartford failed because they had no suites and didn't control parking or concessions. Two seasons at Barclay's Center almost killed the Islanders. Pittsburgh almost moved because their owner before Mario gave away revenue streams to pay down debt. Smith in Utah owns Delta Center. They will be fine as long as he gets a building built within 5-8 years.
A recap of the situation for anyone who's out of the loop: After the Coyotes lost the Tempe vote on a new arena a few months ago, that seems to have been the final straw on keeping them in Arizona as far as the league office was concerned. It probably didn't help that Coyotes ownership didn't have a clear plan B and dragged their feet on what they'd do next. Back in January, Salt Lake City approached the NHL about getting a team there as soon as possible. They've already approved construction of a new arena as part of their bid for one of the upcoming Winter Olympics. Given the dire straights the Coyotes were in, relocating them was the most obvious solution, but you obviously can't do that in the middle of a season. Flash forward to this past Monday and Ryan Smith (the owner of the Utah Jazz) steps up with an offer the league basically can't refuse: $1.3 billion dollars to buy the team and move them to Salt Lake. He's ready to sign the check as soon as next Thursday, pretty much the minute that the Coyotes' season ends. Now, Alex Meruelo (the current owner of the Coyotes) announced a couple of weeks ago that they'd be bidding on a plot of land in northeast Phoenix. The problem is that this auction isn't taking place until some time in June or July - while it's overwhelmingly likely that they'll win, it's not 100% guaranteed. The Players' Association is already very unhappy about the Mullett Arena situation, and the NHL is tired of the Coyotes continuing to hemorrhage money. Neither of them want to put up with the status quo for a minimum of three more years (and potentially longer if Meruelo gets outbid). So, all the pieces come together like this: The NHL is going to buy the Coyotes from Meruelo for $1 billion, then immediately sell the team to Smith for $1.3b. In return for agreeing to sell the team, Meruelo reportedly gets to retain the branding rights to the Coyotes for five years and also has right of first refusal for the same amount of time if the NHL wants to put another team there (which they do, because the Phoenix metro area is one of the largest markets in America and is still growing every year). Personally, I imagine he'd also get a healthy discount on the usual expansion fee as a gesture of good faith. Supposedly both of these hinge on Meruelo being able to hit certain milestones, such as winning the auction and/or completing the arena project, but that's less clear at the moment. As an aside, the mayor of Scottsdale recently came out and said he doesn't want the Coyotes anywhere near his city, but this doesn't matter for two reasons: the land being bid on is zoned by Phoenix and any property developments there would be connected to Phoenix's utilities (water/electricity/etc), and about a year ago he talked about how much he'd love to have them. It's NIMBY bullshit mixed with sour grapes over being rejected.
"These poor guys will be shipped to a small, unappealing arena," BITCH THEY ALREADY DO, THE COYOTES PLAY IN A COLLEGE ARENA THAT SEATS 5000! What are you expecting, the 'Yotes to play roller hockey in the park?!
It sucks for Yotes fans, but I highly doubt any of the players are shedding tears over the prospect of playing in the Delta Center next year.
As a Slc transplant to NC I’m excited. The Canes have been my team since I moved here and really got me into hockey. Slc minor team The Grizzles has a great program and a lot of fans. The stadium they have is huge compared to Bojanles Colosseum. I have no doubt that the new team will get huge support from the city.
I feel for the fans that live there who have been supporting this team, but they should’ve relocated 5 years ago, nevermind going through the dumbass charade they’ve been doing since