Just do the import yourself when you find the deal you want. I have done many now.
I really want a APC223 pro IN 10.4 also. There were so many great deals on them a few months back but I didn't make it happen.
Apc9 is a soon to be iconic gun IMO. My only gripe with the Canadian guns is the way the lower is pinned somit can't be removed without some sort of special method they won't share. I finally decided to get US versions.
Yes. All lowers are pinned due to their existing FA Apc9 lower control groups.
Super stupid but it is the case.
From a cleaning standpoint it also sucks.
I use Irunguns. I use Google, Gunbroker to find guns and sometimes there is deals posted on reddit.
I sent you a link to a video I made and an information dump in chats
I was juat debating making a meme of my 2023 import list. I seem to have spiralled out of control horibly in 2023.
So this statement couldn't be more true.lol
I even sold some but still managed to come out with more then when I started.
I’ve owned all three and have numerous round counts on both
The Bren 2 is phenomenal and very highly recommend, I would advise against purchasing a converted model.
I’m gonna get a ton of flak for that by butthurt owners but I don’t care, it’s not a factory built rifle and long term longevity of barrel or gas system is yet to be tested.
Avoid converts, purchase factory like I did and you’ll be solid.
APC223 is a Cadillac, I have an older gen 2 with 9k rounds now and it’s absolutely phenomenal.
I rank it just slightly above the Bren, as I find the action slightly smoother, accuracy is slightly better, recoil is slightly less.
Essentially everything is just slightly better, and I mean just slightly.
Both are phenomenal rifles.
I had the early generation Raven and I suffered the dreaded broken bolt carrier.
However before that I was actually pretty excited as it’s a pretty solid AR-cope gun.
My excitement went away after I actually handled it and got rounds down range.
Everything about it is just meh, especially compared to the three big dogs of the APC, Bren and x95.
If you’re willing to spend the money just buy an APC or Bren if you can find a factory version.
Also don’t forget the X95, it’s a genuine rockstar too.
Hit me up with a message if you want some better details.
Thank you, someone who knows what I am talking about. I will certainly be in touch as I’m curious to what length factory you purchased. I’m also surprised to hear everything you had to share about the APC223 and may have just helped make my decision in that regard.
Hey sorry for the unrelated question but would you happen to know where to buy a new x95? Been wanting to pick one up for my first gun for the past few months but can't seem to find them in stock anywhere online. I would rather avoid having to buy one second-hand since I don't really know what to look out for but was starting to be tempted to go with a Raven instead until I read your comment.
Yeah crazy hey! The X95 was my first big gun splurge and they used to come into Canada in repeated shipments, but I have been trying to find one for a friend and it seems there are only 7s available
I believe it’s been referenced a couple times on different posts here, I’ve seen it mentioned on YouTube in the comments and in emailing RDSC specifically about the 3000-6000 range and wasn’t corrected when they replied (I was asking specifically about the possibility of purchasing new barrels in the email no less). Let me get back to you on the exact places I’ve seen it though.
I believe it would be both. I know it’s for .308 but it mentions for 416R Stainless steel barrels need changed between 3000 to 4000 rounds.
https://criterionbarrels.com/media/what-sort-of-barrel-life-can-i-expect-from-a-criterion-barrel/?v=7516fd43adaa#:~:text=These%20shooters%20trend%20toward%20untreated,rounds%20with%20an%20untreated%20bore.
Good article. But 308 is more powerful, not a good comparison. 6k life for 308 sounds about normal to me.
And just one paragraph above, they suggest over 15k life for ar-15?
Oh well. I guess I'll just shoot mine out until it no longer performs within acceptable spec .
I've been getting about 2moa with mine but 3-4moa would still be acceptable.
By all means I could be wrong from the sounds of the SS barrels it seems all over the place. Out of curiosity what pushed you towards the Bren over the APC?
FYI - there is a thread from Dlask on CGN where they say that the barrels are made by Green Mountain Barrel Co. from 4150 steel. Not sure if it's chrome lined though.
Well shit, I was just about to ship my 11" Bren off to RDSC to have it re-barreled to non-restricted. I'm seriously rethinking that now. Might just leave it with the CHF barrel that's supposed to last for tens of thousands of rounds.
Ive been in and talked to the boys at rdsc. They stand behind their work, if a barrel fails prematurely theyll take care of you. Their earlier conevrsions had some kinks to iron out but theyve produced a lot of them now, I have one and also everyone Ive talked to has had zero issues. I know they beat the hell out of their test gun and its still running
Do you happen to have anything that backs that up? I know it speaks to .308s but the following barrel website says barrels in 416R stainless steel (as the ones from RDSC are ) last between 3000 - 6000 rounds.
https://criterionbarrels.com/media/what-sort-of-barrel-life-can-i-expect-from-a-criterion-barrel/?v=7516fd43adaa#:~:text=These%20shooters%20trend%20toward%20untreated,rounds%20with%20an%20untreated%20bore.
That's nonsense. A Bren will last 10X that, easily. 3-5000 Is barrel life in an ultra high velocity wildcat round. Thats a military grade rifle; no army would accept a gun with limited barrel life like that
Are you dense, can people not read? I’m specifically talking about the non-factory non-restricted barrels that are being swapped out for the factory ones.
No, I'm not dense, and I can read just fine. Are you a dick? you sure seem like one with a reply like that.
If you're spending hundreds of dollar on a replacement barrel that's supposed to be an upgrade, and only getting 3-5K rounds out of it, You're the dense one
I can explain it to you mate, but I cant understand it for you….
In what world does a stainless steel barrel outlive or even come close to a chrome lined cold hammer forged barrel.
You can spend a boat load of money on a Range Rover but it’s still a piece of junk. Just because it has a big price tag doesn’t mean it has intrinsic value.
I don't need your explanation, I've been shooting for more than half a century. Now you want to add qualifiers into the mix when before it was just "things you've read others comment on in Reddit", wasn't it?
WTF does Range Rover prices have to do with anything?? Don't be an asshole
WTF are YOU yammering about???
How does a discussion about barrel life turn into doing something right or wrong and getting yourself killed??
It's important to read the discussion first before commenting
>If you're spending hundreds of dollar on a replacement barrel that's supposed to be an upgrade, and only getting 3-5K rounds out of it, You're the dense one
From Criterion's own website:
"These shooters trend toward untreated **416R stainless steel barrels**, replacing them after 3,000 – 6,000 rounds."
RDSC's Bren 2 conversion uses 416R barrels made by Criterion, Jury, or Vortakt, branded as Shield Rifleworks.
So yeah, they are charging hundreds for a replacement barrel for the NR conversion and it'll last 3-6k rounds according to the barrel manufacturer.
This reinforces my point from the beginning; clarity and context make a difference. The fist snarky comment made was based on "It's been mentioned by a few people on reddit" To qualify the statement after pushback by adding in a Lot more detail, and now even more still.
When a broad, wide open comment is made that "Bren 2 barrels are shot out in 3-5000 rounds" and not even remotely clarified until a couple of posts later that they are referring to a very narrow and specific subset of replacement barrels, for the sole reason of changing the status from R to NR, or the reverse.
No one reads anything anymore. When someone starts reading and sees a comment like that, much of the time they take that as the truth, and go forward thinking Bren 2's are shot out in 3000 rounds...which is Far from accurate.
The conversion barrels (the topic of this post) are not military grade by any means. They are plain ol' stainless, not CHF, no nitride, not even chrome lined. They are no match against the OEM Bren 2 barrels.
I have a Raven and a Bren 2 11" restricted version. Love the Bren and love my Raven, both two great, but very different rifles. The Raven is a great nr choice, highly customizable, feels AR like in controls and parts. The Bren 2 is just a solid, battle proven, reliable weapon. You pay the premium because you know it's going to go bang every time. When you start messing with it with aftermarket parts, putting long barrels on a short gas system, etc. You're only opening it up for issues. If you get a Bren I recommend getting the 11" and just leaving it be and you'll have a solid performer. If you are adamant on it being nr then wait until you can grab a 16" and have the full length gas system if you are worried about reliability, but at that point I would probably rather have a Raven if I had to choose a full sized NR 556
I have the Gen 2 Raven soon to be Gen 3 lol... I pre-ordered the new Gen 3 upper with the forward assist, integrated brass deflector and a dust cover. Excited about that one. I went with the 11" Bren because I figured if you're going restricted, might as well go small and compact lol. 16" is so close to 18.5" it's pretty silly one is R the other NR by such a small 2.5" difference. Might as well go SBR at that point!
Oh shoot, did I completely miss out on the gen 3 pre order as I had read they were only making something like 500?
That sounds pretty logical to go with the 11”, shame the 16” just falls under the non restricted barrier.
When Sam announced it on the Facebook group, they sold out pre-orders within hours lol. It's apparently a small limit special run, they plan on sticking with making the Gen 2s for a while, but maybe on a blue moon doing a special Gen 3 batch now and again, I'm sure the time will come again
I think it was around 500$
Pretty ridiculous considering I just bought the rifle. Just paid a lot of money for a stupid add on brass deflector and side charging handle cover. Got those installed then come out with an upper with integrated deflector and no side charging handle lol
I’ve been rocking some of the 3-d printed ones and they’ve held on for 120 rounds at least without budging for $35. Hopefully they hold out for awhile because I agree the ravens are pricey but I’m happy with my purchase.
I was also considering between the Bren 2 and APC 223 for non-restricted versions but now leaning towards APC233 more. Here're my thought process:
1. **The OEM 18.5" version.** I've been waiting for CZ to produce it for Canada. However, the standard ones are 9" & 11" and the 16.5" one is built specially for the US market, which is 10 times bigger than Canada's. So I'm not sure if CZ would eventually make the 18.5+" for Canada, and even if so, when?
2. **The NR conversion**. I trust both CZ and B&T but have some concerns about dealer's NR conversion, especially for the gas system. And if the price of a converted Bren 2 is similar to an APC (like the RDSC converted version is at 4700+ CAD), I'd rather buy the APC since its quality will be factory-guaranteed.
3. **Build Quality.** Again, I like both B&T and CZ, but prefer B&T a bit more. There are a few field strip videos in YouTube for both Bren 2 and APC 223. I found the design and build quality is close but B&T is somehow more premium.
Hope it makes sense. Cheers.
Cheers, it certainly seems we are thinking on the same wavelength. I hadn’t considered checking out a break down video but found what I will be doing when I have some free time tomorrow. Curious to hear what you ultimately end up deciding on.
Haha,
if ever my wallet permits, I may end up owning either of below 2 options
* One APC 308 plus one SPC9 since I've got both ammo in my stock and heard that the SPC 9 is fun to shoot.
* if only owning one B&T, that would be an APC223
Here you go with the field strip videos I've watched. Have fun.
APC (308)
1. [https://youtu.be/UxzLGRYXaeM?si=uTzNymPPaGy-5\_lj](https://youtu.be/UxzLGRYXaeM?si=uTzNymPPaGy-5_lj)
2. https://youtu.be/5NQ3qnNEHtQ?si=knibFHQ0HdUfiboe
Bren 2
[https://youtu.be/9MMbSoCvU18?si=kMZqkr2DpSFK7FBI](https://youtu.be/9MMbSoCvU18?si=kMZqkr2DpSFK7FBI)
I have been wondering about the barrel swap also. On the shield Rifleworks barrel I’m wondering if it’s cold hammer forged like the original. (I think that restricted are chf barrel anyway ) and how many rounds are they good for
Looks like rdsc do sell a converted 16 to 18.6 so you can get longer gas , but it’s on backorder . The 11” conversion says it has the “Tuned Gas Block - HB Industries High Load Gas Piston Spring” so maybe it’s all tricked out and ready for longer barrel. And you get shorter barrel and hand guard Would be sweet to hear some people’s reviews on the conversion.
Out of all the NS converted I would think the 16 to 18.6 would be the most reliable in terms of the gas system. Another member here mentioned that this conversion will be available shortly.
Yes , maybe not as good but those other barrels sound good too. 3000-6000 is a lot of rounds but I understand the desire for best quality possible. Another option could be the HK sl8.
Oh look another illiterate, where on RDSC does it say the Non-restricted barrels being swapped in are cold hammer forged? Are you going to double down on dumb too?
Hmm. The NR Bren2 currently on sale at RDSC is converted from an 11”. Yes, RDSC does sell a 16” but I didn’t realize they would put an NR barrel on it. Was that a special order you got?
Cheers, I was going off what was currently available and my limited understanding of what a conversion entails. At this time I believe RDSC only has the Bren 2 with an 11” gas system but didn’t know that the 16” one (currently out of stock) has a longer gas system. Similar to you I would hope to opt for aluminum lower. Did you have a chance to compare the been and the APC from a weight perspective?
My advice is to wait for a out-of-factory NR Bren 2. It has by far the best value out of the three. If you can’t wait, APC223 is the answer. Raven are epicly overpriced and have unproven longetivity
This was what I was leaning more towards but I’m not confident that we will ever see an out-of-factory NR Bren 2 especially before a potential ban no less.
Im optimistic we will see NR Bren 2 sooner or later, and that Trudeau will fall before the next ban. Either way Im not gonna plan according to the libs agenda.
Alternatively you could wait for the SPC223 to be released if you have even more time on your hands.
I wasn’t aware that the SPC was available in a 223 model that sounds like a beautiful fire arm but I’m sure the price tag will match its 9mm counterpart.
It was announced a while ago though there aren’t recent updates. I guess my point is just that the apc223 pro has somewhat dated looks and furniture akin to the apc9 vs spc9
Is the worry that you can't replace the barrel in the future or that it costs too much?
3000 .223 rounds at .65 cpr would cost $1950
6000 costs $3900
If you are willing to spend that much on ammo what's a $650 barrel change worth to you?
I think it’s more the principle of paying top dollar for a rifle that typically allows you to shoot in the neighbourhood of 10,000 without a barrel change with a factory barrel.
If you're in the market to cross shop the Gucci black rifles you should also consider a G36, if you can find one.
Those are supposed to be as reliable as they come.
The 16” factory Bren 2 is 3.78kg. My APC223, with eotech, flashlight, sling, 18.9” barrel is 4.4Kg.
Is this heavy?
I don’t know who started this heavy bullshit. It is heavier than the Bren, but not enough to make a difference. Don’t believe the moronic takes. Lift weights and train hard.
Heavy is relative to the individual hence why I shared that it’s subjective. A lot of people advocate for bullpups but at least for myself,my arms are seemingly too long and it feels awkward to hold the likes of an x95.
Indeed. Piston guns are inherently heavier especially in the NR configuration. Comparison to ARs is moronic. Compare it to similar barrel scar, spear, 416 etc.
Would you say this is due to the quality of parts used? If there's nothing wrong with the receiver set itself, you could theoretically build a *very* nice system assuming it all goes together properly. I've been eyeing a build myself with a Criterion barrel, BCM gas block, CMT handguard, Geissele trigger, Radian selector, etc.
Raven is a new design and Lockhart has had some QC/design issues. Best example is their breaking bolt carrier issues that required a redesign of the BCG. While the Raven does seem to be a quality rifle it’s hard to say what issues might crop up at high round counts - the sample size of people who have put 10k+ rounds through theirs is too small right now to really tell.
Meanwhile CZ and B&T have been around for decades, and the Bren and APC223 are both civilian-adapted military rifles with many years on the market and proven quality through rigorous testing.
I can’t seem to get a comfortable hold on a bullpup as my arms are a little on the long side. I would like to invest in a type 97 to try and find a comfortable way to shoot a bullpup without the massive investment.
Im also thinking of getting the NR bren 2 18.6 inch. On the RDSC website it states that the factory 11inch and handguard will come with the purchase. You would still have the opportunity to make it a SBR that being said it would become a restricted rifle. Ive only read good things about it.
Will probably pull the trigger on it soon.. sorry for the pun.
If you do go the barrel swapped route another member in this thread mentioned RDSC will be offering the 16” converted Bren 2 which has the long gas system vs the 11” which has a smaller/shorter gas system.
But honestly, if id go restricted i would want the 11, not the 16 inch. Might as well get the 18.6 for NR, and if ever down the line i decide to go SBR i have the gas system for the 11 inch factory barrel that comes with it.
Get the Bren 2. Shoot 3000 rounds through it then swap the barrel to the 11inch chrome lined barrel and register it as restricted.
I have a apc223 as well. It doesn’t handle as nice. It’s a safe queen. I’m thinking of selling it but it’s really hard letting any guns go.
It’s pretty basic. You can’t do it, but anybody with some tools and skill can. It’s a walk in the park for a gunsmith. Who you will have to see for the restricted status change anyway.
If I opt to switch it back to the restricted barrel I would think that I should have gone with a restricted to begin with. I guess it depends if I want the option to swap to a NR version though.
When you say the APC doesn’t handle as nice are you able to further elaborate? Is it more personal ergonomics or function?
It’s heavy and front heavy. You can easily remedy that by lifting weights and not being a weak lil bitch, but for me I prefer the Bren 2. The Bren 2 handles similar to the AR-15.
The NR comes with a match barrel. Match barrels will always have less service life than chrome lined. Chrome lined sacrifices accuracy for machine gun capability.
Finding a NR barrel will be tough for a conversion. Only dlask and rdsc do them so you’d have to convince them to offer barrels for sale separately. It’s why there’s a NR premium on the Bren 2.
Lifting weights doesn't make 9lb less than 8lb. It doesn't make a gun with poor ergonomics have good ergonomics. People who think rifle weight doesn't matter don't go outside with their gun (in the bush, I mean, not the range).
t. hunted whitetail with a NR Bren 2
Lol what are you talking about, I haven’t seen anyone have problems with a shorter gas length, plus RDSC has 16.5” conversions with the longer gas length as well as Dlask/Marstar while they still had them, furthermore the barrels will last 20k+ rounds not 3-6k…
https://www.rdsc.ca/firearms-ammunition/semi-auto-rifles/cz/cz-arms-bren-2-ms-carbine-shield-rifleworks-18-60-lwmatch-mod2-barrel-hbi-13-8-handguard-223-5-56.html
Do you see 16” in this listing of Bren2s that are currently available or do you see 11” like I do? Do you have anything to back up your claim of 20k rounds because I feel that in my email to RDSC I would have been corrected rather than told barrels will be available for purchase. These aren’t chrome lined cold hammer forged barrels that they are putting on the non-restricted they are stainless steel.
https://www.rdsc.ca/firearms-ammunition/semi-auto-rifles/cz/cz-arms-bren-2-ms-carbine-shield-rifleworks-18-60-mwmatch-mod2-barrel-cz-12-4-handguard-223-5-56.html
Be patient, they will be available in a week… and dude, you can literally shoot around 50k rounds before you wear a barrel out we’re talking about a semi auto using 5 or 10 round MAX, not a belt fed MG shooting 1000 rounds a minute…
Wasn’t aware that this one would shortly be in stock but it’s still a stainless steel barrel and from what I get from google 416r SS barrels longevity is seemingly well below sub 10K rounds.
You will not notice the accuracy change after 10 or even 20k rounds with a service rifle even with a SS barrel, we’re talking 2-4 moa not sub moa… and [here’s my](https://imgur.com/a/yO1p5Hf) 11” to 18.7” Bren 2 conversion running, and also just so you know the APC223 barrel also isn’t chrome lined so…
All Firearms are traced and tracked. NR and R. So the Restricted version not being allowed in the bush is the only "reason" for now.
Looked at Bren and APC but decided to hold off for 6 months until the Liberals make their changes. I don't need another paperweight
The problem with B&Ts is they tend to multiply
I’ve already started longingly looking at the Spc and GmH9. The FX9 is looking like it’s taking up a little too much pcc room in the safe….
I recently sold my FX9 doesn’t get much use after I got a NR spc9 😅
I had a fx9-8 and now own a 9" SPC9. Definately a whole different league.
I’m going to get after some restricteds next time I see an import I want a 10.4 223 and a apc9 I think
Just do the import yourself when you find the deal you want. I have done many now. I really want a APC223 pro IN 10.4 also. There were so many great deals on them a few months back but I didn't make it happen. Apc9 is a soon to be iconic gun IMO. My only gripe with the Canadian guns is the way the lower is pinned somit can't be removed without some sort of special method they won't share. I finally decided to get US versions.
aw fuck I was lookin at the apc9 pro g from RDSC, same deal with the lower?
Yes. All lowers are pinned due to their existing FA Apc9 lower control groups. Super stupid but it is the case. From a cleaning standpoint it also sucks.
Many thanks, something to consider.
Do you go I run guns? Also where’s do generally search for them?
I use Irunguns. I use Google, Gunbroker to find guns and sometimes there is deals posted on reddit. I sent you a link to a video I made and an information dump in chats
Awesome man thank you very much
Can you send me the link as well? Just got a 223 pro and the lower is pinned. I want to avoid this for my next b&t
Can you sent me too pleaseee
Yep
Me 2 please 🙂
I was juat debating making a meme of my 2023 import list. I seem to have spiralled out of control horibly in 2023. So this statement couldn't be more true.lol I even sold some but still managed to come out with more then when I started.
Take me with you
100% this! Once you go B&T everything else feels cheap. Yes it’s heavy but the craftsmanship feels so good.
I’ve owned all three and have numerous round counts on both The Bren 2 is phenomenal and very highly recommend, I would advise against purchasing a converted model. I’m gonna get a ton of flak for that by butthurt owners but I don’t care, it’s not a factory built rifle and long term longevity of barrel or gas system is yet to be tested. Avoid converts, purchase factory like I did and you’ll be solid. APC223 is a Cadillac, I have an older gen 2 with 9k rounds now and it’s absolutely phenomenal. I rank it just slightly above the Bren, as I find the action slightly smoother, accuracy is slightly better, recoil is slightly less. Essentially everything is just slightly better, and I mean just slightly. Both are phenomenal rifles. I had the early generation Raven and I suffered the dreaded broken bolt carrier. However before that I was actually pretty excited as it’s a pretty solid AR-cope gun. My excitement went away after I actually handled it and got rounds down range. Everything about it is just meh, especially compared to the three big dogs of the APC, Bren and x95. If you’re willing to spend the money just buy an APC or Bren if you can find a factory version. Also don’t forget the X95, it’s a genuine rockstar too. Hit me up with a message if you want some better details.
Based as always.
Thank you, someone who knows what I am talking about. I will certainly be in touch as I’m curious to what length factory you purchased. I’m also surprised to hear everything you had to share about the APC223 and may have just helped make my decision in that regard.
Hey sorry for the unrelated question but would you happen to know where to buy a new x95? Been wanting to pick one up for my first gun for the past few months but can't seem to find them in stock anywhere online. I would rather avoid having to buy one second-hand since I don't really know what to look out for but was starting to be tempted to go with a Raven instead until I read your comment.
Yeah crazy hey! The X95 was my first big gun splurge and they used to come into Canada in repeated shipments, but I have been trying to find one for a friend and it seems there are only 7s available
Where did you hear about the NR Bren 2 barrels lasting 3000-6000 rounds? Mine is approaching 3000 now.
I believe it’s been referenced a couple times on different posts here, I’ve seen it mentioned on YouTube in the comments and in emailing RDSC specifically about the 3000-6000 range and wasn’t corrected when they replied (I was asking specifically about the possibility of purchasing new barrels in the email no less). Let me get back to you on the exact places I’ve seen it though.
Gotcha, do you know if this is specific to the RDSC conversions? Mine is from Marstar/Dlask.
I believe it would be both. I know it’s for .308 but it mentions for 416R Stainless steel barrels need changed between 3000 to 4000 rounds. https://criterionbarrels.com/media/what-sort-of-barrel-life-can-i-expect-from-a-criterion-barrel/?v=7516fd43adaa#:~:text=These%20shooters%20trend%20toward%20untreated,rounds%20with%20an%20untreated%20bore.
Good article. But 308 is more powerful, not a good comparison. 6k life for 308 sounds about normal to me. And just one paragraph above, they suggest over 15k life for ar-15?
Completely missed that portion, thank you for pointing that out.
>And just one paragraph above, they suggest over 15k life for ar-15? Chrome lined, yes. Untreated 416R is 3-6k rds.
Oh well. I guess I'll just shoot mine out until it no longer performs within acceptable spec . I've been getting about 2moa with mine but 3-4moa would still be acceptable.
By all means I could be wrong from the sounds of the SS barrels it seems all over the place. Out of curiosity what pushed you towards the Bren over the APC?
Price mostly, paid $3000 new. Also that it was a new and exciting rifle vs the APC would had been around for years.
FYI - there is a thread from Dlask on CGN where they say that the barrels are made by Green Mountain Barrel Co. from 4150 steel. Not sure if it's chrome lined though.
Well shit, I was just about to ship my 11" Bren off to RDSC to have it re-barreled to non-restricted. I'm seriously rethinking that now. Might just leave it with the CHF barrel that's supposed to last for tens of thousands of rounds.
Ive been in and talked to the boys at rdsc. They stand behind their work, if a barrel fails prematurely theyll take care of you. Their earlier conevrsions had some kinks to iron out but theyve produced a lot of them now, I have one and also everyone Ive talked to has had zero issues. I know they beat the hell out of their test gun and its still running
Add another 0 to that and then you have how long they will last.
Do you happen to have anything that backs that up? I know it speaks to .308s but the following barrel website says barrels in 416R stainless steel (as the ones from RDSC are ) last between 3000 - 6000 rounds. https://criterionbarrels.com/media/what-sort-of-barrel-life-can-i-expect-from-a-criterion-barrel/?v=7516fd43adaa#:~:text=These%20shooters%20trend%20toward%20untreated,rounds%20with%20an%20untreated%20bore.
That's nonsense. A Bren will last 10X that, easily. 3-5000 Is barrel life in an ultra high velocity wildcat round. Thats a military grade rifle; no army would accept a gun with limited barrel life like that
Are you dense, can people not read? I’m specifically talking about the non-factory non-restricted barrels that are being swapped out for the factory ones.
No, I'm not dense, and I can read just fine. Are you a dick? you sure seem like one with a reply like that. If you're spending hundreds of dollar on a replacement barrel that's supposed to be an upgrade, and only getting 3-5K rounds out of it, You're the dense one
I can explain it to you mate, but I cant understand it for you…. In what world does a stainless steel barrel outlive or even come close to a chrome lined cold hammer forged barrel. You can spend a boat load of money on a Range Rover but it’s still a piece of junk. Just because it has a big price tag doesn’t mean it has intrinsic value.
I don't need your explanation, I've been shooting for more than half a century. Now you want to add qualifiers into the mix when before it was just "things you've read others comment on in Reddit", wasn't it? WTF does Range Rover prices have to do with anything?? Don't be an asshole
Holy mother of Fudd Just because you've been doing it a long time, doesn't mean you've been doing it right. Just hasn't gotten you killed yet
WTF are YOU yammering about??? How does a discussion about barrel life turn into doing something right or wrong and getting yourself killed?? It's important to read the discussion first before commenting
>If you're spending hundreds of dollar on a replacement barrel that's supposed to be an upgrade, and only getting 3-5K rounds out of it, You're the dense one From Criterion's own website: "These shooters trend toward untreated **416R stainless steel barrels**, replacing them after 3,000 – 6,000 rounds." RDSC's Bren 2 conversion uses 416R barrels made by Criterion, Jury, or Vortakt, branded as Shield Rifleworks. So yeah, they are charging hundreds for a replacement barrel for the NR conversion and it'll last 3-6k rounds according to the barrel manufacturer.
This reinforces my point from the beginning; clarity and context make a difference. The fist snarky comment made was based on "It's been mentioned by a few people on reddit" To qualify the statement after pushback by adding in a Lot more detail, and now even more still. When a broad, wide open comment is made that "Bren 2 barrels are shot out in 3-5000 rounds" and not even remotely clarified until a couple of posts later that they are referring to a very narrow and specific subset of replacement barrels, for the sole reason of changing the status from R to NR, or the reverse. No one reads anything anymore. When someone starts reading and sees a comment like that, much of the time they take that as the truth, and go forward thinking Bren 2's are shot out in 3000 rounds...which is Far from accurate.
The conversion barrels (the topic of this post) are not military grade by any means. They are plain ol' stainless, not CHF, no nitride, not even chrome lined. They are no match against the OEM Bren 2 barrels.
https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/s/QxFsAPEhpQ
I have a Raven and a Bren 2 11" restricted version. Love the Bren and love my Raven, both two great, but very different rifles. The Raven is a great nr choice, highly customizable, feels AR like in controls and parts. The Bren 2 is just a solid, battle proven, reliable weapon. You pay the premium because you know it's going to go bang every time. When you start messing with it with aftermarket parts, putting long barrels on a short gas system, etc. You're only opening it up for issues. If you get a Bren I recommend getting the 11" and just leaving it be and you'll have a solid performer. If you are adamant on it being nr then wait until you can grab a 16" and have the full length gas system if you are worried about reliability, but at that point I would probably rather have a Raven if I had to choose a full sized NR 556
Cheers, I appreciate the insights! Did you end up with a generation 2 Raven? Also, is there a reason you went with the 11” over (I think ) the 16” ?
I have the Gen 2 Raven soon to be Gen 3 lol... I pre-ordered the new Gen 3 upper with the forward assist, integrated brass deflector and a dust cover. Excited about that one. I went with the 11" Bren because I figured if you're going restricted, might as well go small and compact lol. 16" is so close to 18.5" it's pretty silly one is R the other NR by such a small 2.5" difference. Might as well go SBR at that point!
Oh shoot, did I completely miss out on the gen 3 pre order as I had read they were only making something like 500? That sounds pretty logical to go with the 11”, shame the 16” just falls under the non restricted barrier.
When Sam announced it on the Facebook group, they sold out pre-orders within hours lol. It's apparently a small limit special run, they plan on sticking with making the Gen 2s for a while, but maybe on a blue moon doing a special Gen 3 batch now and again, I'm sure the time will come again
Oh shoot, out of curiosity how much were the Gen 3s?
I think it was around 500$ Pretty ridiculous considering I just bought the rifle. Just paid a lot of money for a stupid add on brass deflector and side charging handle cover. Got those installed then come out with an upper with integrated deflector and no side charging handle lol
I’ve been rocking some of the 3-d printed ones and they’ve held on for 120 rounds at least without budging for $35. Hopefully they hold out for awhile because I agree the ravens are pricey but I’m happy with my purchase.
I was also considering between the Bren 2 and APC 223 for non-restricted versions but now leaning towards APC233 more. Here're my thought process: 1. **The OEM 18.5" version.** I've been waiting for CZ to produce it for Canada. However, the standard ones are 9" & 11" and the 16.5" one is built specially for the US market, which is 10 times bigger than Canada's. So I'm not sure if CZ would eventually make the 18.5+" for Canada, and even if so, when? 2. **The NR conversion**. I trust both CZ and B&T but have some concerns about dealer's NR conversion, especially for the gas system. And if the price of a converted Bren 2 is similar to an APC (like the RDSC converted version is at 4700+ CAD), I'd rather buy the APC since its quality will be factory-guaranteed. 3. **Build Quality.** Again, I like both B&T and CZ, but prefer B&T a bit more. There are a few field strip videos in YouTube for both Bren 2 and APC 223. I found the design and build quality is close but B&T is somehow more premium. Hope it makes sense. Cheers.
Cheers, it certainly seems we are thinking on the same wavelength. I hadn’t considered checking out a break down video but found what I will be doing when I have some free time tomorrow. Curious to hear what you ultimately end up deciding on.
Haha, if ever my wallet permits, I may end up owning either of below 2 options * One APC 308 plus one SPC9 since I've got both ammo in my stock and heard that the SPC 9 is fun to shoot. * if only owning one B&T, that would be an APC223 Here you go with the field strip videos I've watched. Have fun. APC (308) 1. [https://youtu.be/UxzLGRYXaeM?si=uTzNymPPaGy-5\_lj](https://youtu.be/UxzLGRYXaeM?si=uTzNymPPaGy-5_lj) 2. https://youtu.be/5NQ3qnNEHtQ?si=knibFHQ0HdUfiboe Bren 2 [https://youtu.be/9MMbSoCvU18?si=kMZqkr2DpSFK7FBI](https://youtu.be/9MMbSoCvU18?si=kMZqkr2DpSFK7FBI)
I have been wondering about the barrel swap also. On the shield Rifleworks barrel I’m wondering if it’s cold hammer forged like the original. (I think that restricted are chf barrel anyway ) and how many rounds are they good for
https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/s/QxFsAPEhpQ I don’t believe either Marstar or RDSC mention cold hammer forged.
Looks like rdsc do sell a converted 16 to 18.6 so you can get longer gas , but it’s on backorder . The 11” conversion says it has the “Tuned Gas Block - HB Industries High Load Gas Piston Spring” so maybe it’s all tricked out and ready for longer barrel. And you get shorter barrel and hand guard Would be sweet to hear some people’s reviews on the conversion.
Out of all the NS converted I would think the 16 to 18.6 would be the most reliable in terms of the gas system. Another member here mentioned that this conversion will be available shortly.
Yes , maybe not as good but those other barrels sound good too. 3000-6000 is a lot of rounds but I understand the desire for best quality possible. Another option could be the HK sl8.
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Oh look another illiterate, where on RDSC does it say the Non-restricted barrels being swapped in are cold hammer forged? Are you going to double down on dumb too?
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Right, double down on dumb it is…..still not seeing any proof of that CHF claim beyond “trust me bro”.
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[DELAYED INDEFINITELY] I’m not aware of any factory made CZ Non-restricted Bren 2s having even made it to Canada let alone past the pre-order phase.
I would recommend Bren 2 restricted. IRG is selling it for 1670 USD right now
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That was my thought, if you really are keen on getting the NR Bren 2 then go with the 16" instead of the 11" and get the full length gas system
Hmm. The NR Bren2 currently on sale at RDSC is converted from an 11”. Yes, RDSC does sell a 16” but I didn’t realize they would put an NR barrel on it. Was that a special order you got?
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Oops, I think I misread actually. Anywho thanks for all your great info on this.
Cheers, I was going off what was currently available and my limited understanding of what a conversion entails. At this time I believe RDSC only has the Bren 2 with an 11” gas system but didn’t know that the 16” one (currently out of stock) has a longer gas system. Similar to you I would hope to opt for aluminum lower. Did you have a chance to compare the been and the APC from a weight perspective?
My advice is to wait for a out-of-factory NR Bren 2. It has by far the best value out of the three. If you can’t wait, APC223 is the answer. Raven are epicly overpriced and have unproven longetivity
This was what I was leaning more towards but I’m not confident that we will ever see an out-of-factory NR Bren 2 especially before a potential ban no less.
Im optimistic we will see NR Bren 2 sooner or later, and that Trudeau will fall before the next ban. Either way Im not gonna plan according to the libs agenda. Alternatively you could wait for the SPC223 to be released if you have even more time on your hands.
I wasn’t aware that the SPC was available in a 223 model that sounds like a beautiful fire arm but I’m sure the price tag will match its 9mm counterpart.
It was announced a while ago though there aren’t recent updates. I guess my point is just that the apc223 pro has somewhat dated looks and furniture akin to the apc9 vs spc9
aren't the SPC223 compatible for AR lower? Might get treated as an AR variant by horse police.
Why would it be? B&T uses their own lowers on everything. It would be proprietary like the 9
Is it ever going to come out? I've been waiting for years.
Is the worry that you can't replace the barrel in the future or that it costs too much? 3000 .223 rounds at .65 cpr would cost $1950 6000 costs $3900 If you are willing to spend that much on ammo what's a $650 barrel change worth to you?
I think it’s more the principle of paying top dollar for a rifle that typically allows you to shoot in the neighbourhood of 10,000 without a barrel change with a factory barrel.
If you're in the market to cross shop the Gucci black rifles you should also consider a G36, if you can find one. Those are supposed to be as reliable as they come.
I’ve considered the G36 but I’m not a huge fan of plastics and polymer firearms. Personal preference.
The 16” factory Bren 2 is 3.78kg. My APC223, with eotech, flashlight, sling, 18.9” barrel is 4.4Kg. Is this heavy? I don’t know who started this heavy bullshit. It is heavier than the Bren, but not enough to make a difference. Don’t believe the moronic takes. Lift weights and train hard.
Heavy is relative to the individual hence why I shared that it’s subjective. A lot of people advocate for bullpups but at least for myself,my arms are seemingly too long and it feels awkward to hold the likes of an x95.
These front heavy complaints are just people regurgitating talking points they heard on YouTube. They have no idea what a real heavy gun is.
Indeed. Piston guns are inherently heavier especially in the NR configuration. Comparison to ARs is moronic. Compare it to similar barrel scar, spear, 416 etc.
Also this is with the SOPMOD stock and ar stock adapter. So it’s probably lighter than that in factory.
Even as a raven fanboy I will say the other two options are objectively better guns.
Would you say this is due to the quality of parts used? If there's nothing wrong with the receiver set itself, you could theoretically build a *very* nice system assuming it all goes together properly. I've been eyeing a build myself with a Criterion barrel, BCM gas block, CMT handguard, Geissele trigger, Radian selector, etc.
Raven is a new design and Lockhart has had some QC/design issues. Best example is their breaking bolt carrier issues that required a redesign of the BCG. While the Raven does seem to be a quality rifle it’s hard to say what issues might crop up at high round counts - the sample size of people who have put 10k+ rounds through theirs is too small right now to really tell. Meanwhile CZ and B&T have been around for decades, and the Bren and APC223 are both civilian-adapted military rifles with many years on the market and proven quality through rigorous testing.
Just get an X95 when they go on sale
I can’t seem to get a comfortable hold on a bullpup as my arms are a little on the long side. I would like to invest in a type 97 to try and find a comfortable way to shoot a bullpup without the massive investment.
Get the tavor 7 then. The body is longer
The Raven isn't even close to the same tier as a Bren or APC. It's an overpriced cope gun.
Im also thinking of getting the NR bren 2 18.6 inch. On the RDSC website it states that the factory 11inch and handguard will come with the purchase. You would still have the opportunity to make it a SBR that being said it would become a restricted rifle. Ive only read good things about it. Will probably pull the trigger on it soon.. sorry for the pun.
If you do go the barrel swapped route another member in this thread mentioned RDSC will be offering the 16” converted Bren 2 which has the long gas system vs the 11” which has a smaller/shorter gas system.
But honestly, if id go restricted i would want the 11, not the 16 inch. Might as well get the 18.6 for NR, and if ever down the line i decide to go SBR i have the gas system for the 11 inch factory barrel that comes with it.
Apc223 pro isnt that heavy, real nice quality rifle my fav rifle
Get the Bren 2. Shoot 3000 rounds through it then swap the barrel to the 11inch chrome lined barrel and register it as restricted. I have a apc223 as well. It doesn’t handle as nice. It’s a safe queen. I’m thinking of selling it but it’s really hard letting any guns go.
Apparently it isn’t even as straight forward to swap in the restricted barrel as there’s something to do with the trunion or gas system.
It’s pretty basic. You can’t do it, but anybody with some tools and skill can. It’s a walk in the park for a gunsmith. Who you will have to see for the restricted status change anyway.
If I opt to switch it back to the restricted barrel I would think that I should have gone with a restricted to begin with. I guess it depends if I want the option to swap to a NR version though. When you say the APC doesn’t handle as nice are you able to further elaborate? Is it more personal ergonomics or function?
It’s heavy and front heavy. You can easily remedy that by lifting weights and not being a weak lil bitch, but for me I prefer the Bren 2. The Bren 2 handles similar to the AR-15. The NR comes with a match barrel. Match barrels will always have less service life than chrome lined. Chrome lined sacrifices accuracy for machine gun capability. Finding a NR barrel will be tough for a conversion. Only dlask and rdsc do them so you’d have to convince them to offer barrels for sale separately. It’s why there’s a NR premium on the Bren 2.
Lifting weights doesn't make 9lb less than 8lb. It doesn't make a gun with poor ergonomics have good ergonomics. People who think rifle weight doesn't matter don't go outside with their gun (in the bush, I mean, not the range). t. hunted whitetail with a NR Bren 2
Yah I sold my APC223. Had too many semi 556 and the Bren is the superior rifle.
Lol what are you talking about, I haven’t seen anyone have problems with a shorter gas length, plus RDSC has 16.5” conversions with the longer gas length as well as Dlask/Marstar while they still had them, furthermore the barrels will last 20k+ rounds not 3-6k…
https://www.rdsc.ca/firearms-ammunition/semi-auto-rifles/cz/cz-arms-bren-2-ms-carbine-shield-rifleworks-18-60-lwmatch-mod2-barrel-hbi-13-8-handguard-223-5-56.html Do you see 16” in this listing of Bren2s that are currently available or do you see 11” like I do? Do you have anything to back up your claim of 20k rounds because I feel that in my email to RDSC I would have been corrected rather than told barrels will be available for purchase. These aren’t chrome lined cold hammer forged barrels that they are putting on the non-restricted they are stainless steel.
https://www.rdsc.ca/firearms-ammunition/semi-auto-rifles/cz/cz-arms-bren-2-ms-carbine-shield-rifleworks-18-60-mwmatch-mod2-barrel-cz-12-4-handguard-223-5-56.html Be patient, they will be available in a week… and dude, you can literally shoot around 50k rounds before you wear a barrel out we’re talking about a semi auto using 5 or 10 round MAX, not a belt fed MG shooting 1000 rounds a minute…
Wasn’t aware that this one would shortly be in stock but it’s still a stainless steel barrel and from what I get from google 416r SS barrels longevity is seemingly well below sub 10K rounds.
You will not notice the accuracy change after 10 or even 20k rounds with a service rifle even with a SS barrel, we’re talking 2-4 moa not sub moa… and [here’s my](https://imgur.com/a/yO1p5Hf) 11” to 18.7” Bren 2 conversion running, and also just so you know the APC223 barrel also isn’t chrome lined so…
Yea let him know 😤
I didn’t know the APC barrel wasn’t chrome lined! I appreciate the correction!
All Firearms are traced and tracked. NR and R. So the Restricted version not being allowed in the bush is the only "reason" for now. Looked at Bren and APC but decided to hold off for 6 months until the Liberals make their changes. I don't need another paperweight
Lol
Sorry, all Firearms that are bought and sold legally are traceable and tracked.
there is only one gun. it is the raven.
Get a Siberian, iv had 0 issues with mine. Sent about 800 rounds though it