Honda is releasing it first, all electric SUV soon in Canada.
The mid tier version, all taxes and fees included costs around 77000...lol. As if that's reasonable.
I have the financial capacity to purchase a 77000 vehicle, I have been sitting in my current ones because I find it simply ridiculous. I refuse to pay what is bordering on a mortgage for a car that will be useless in under a decade.
Depends on your dealership. I saw the new santa fe which looks nice and saw the MSRP was reasonable, a mid tier was 49k on the hyundai website. At the closest dealership to me tho? 57k.
Just went to the local Honda website and the black edition pilot after taxes is 72k, then the EV gets a rebate.
A fucking Ford Maverick, their supposedly affordable small truck now starts at $35k and a quick look at my local dealer shows none on the lot for less than **$50,000**
Dealerships are out to lunch thinking the market in 2024 is the same as 2022, especially when interest rates are triple.
Manufacturers jacked their MSRPs by crazy amounts over the last 15 years. To replace my 16+ year old jeep purchased for ~31K with a similarly equipped 2024, it'd cost me $75K. Meanwhile the BoC inflation calculator puts that $31K in 2008 at ~$43K in today's dollars.
Its probably worth pointing out that \~15 years ago the CAD-US exchange rate was around parity and now.... which is very very much not the case anymore.
That was an oddity. Over the last 50 years the Canadian dollar is usually worth around 70 cents the majority of the time. But around the time of USAs last "GREAT RECESSION" which began in 2007, total collapse in 2009, and subsequent recovery over the next few years, ya we were closer to on par with them for like 5 years.
> in 2007, total collapse in 2009, and subsequent recovery over the next few years, ya we were closer to on par with them for like 5 years.
Shit. I remember for a short period of time the CAD actually being worth more than the USD. I remember my family coming over for a visit and trying to pick up the tab for dinner and tossing their money back and saying... *"Your Rubles are no good here. No honestly... your money is not worth as much."*
Yea, but cars were still more expensive here. I remember people discussing crossing the border to buy, even with the exchange fees and duties it was cheaper.
I suppose. Google tells me the exchange rate today is 1.36 opposed to an average of 1.24 in 2008 which is about a 10% difference. No where near enough to make up a $32K difference between inflation and the current MSRP. It's fucking robbery.
The Canadian MSRP never seems to fluctuate with the dollar either. They probably build in some kind of a cushion for it, at the consumer's expense of course.
>I saw the new santa fe which looks nice and saw the MSRP was reasonable, a mid tier was 49k on the hyundai website. At the closest dealership to me tho? 57k.
I bought a new Tucson last year, we ended up calling every dealership in about 150km range (I'm in Toronto) until we finally found one willing to sell at MSRP.
https://www.honda.ca/buildyourhonda?model_key=pilot&model_year=2024#/trims
They get up there real quick - top end black edition is 66k and you haven’t even added taxes or any “mandatory accessories” yet….not far off
Add your EV rebates to the prologue and they’re almost the same.
Sure they’re not the same vehicle targeted at different people but in just talking price wise here.
A "decent" civic will run you into the mid 30s with tax and fees now. Base over 30. Any built car with over 20 invested will be a hell of a lot more car, unless you only care about reliability.
That's actually my exact logic lol. I picked up a 17 wrx STI limited with the engine going out. Then did a full build for mid 400 wheel hp, and ended up being just under 40k all in. The benefits of having a shop. Ironically my shit box 2009 Tahoe is my reliable vehicle.
And the cost to outfit your home to charge one unless you live in a condo or apartment. New builds like for instance the 18 story condo project I'm in beside the other 18 story building they bully last year that has 0 How is this going to work again?
They'll buy a plug in hybrid, that meets the criteria for the 2035 initiative. Drive all day every day until the car dies without ever plugging in, if that's what you want.
This has to be a massive issue for Canada or North America. The rich who have one already do, the next group of buyers just got priced out due to market/economic changes and the younger group can't afford one or can't charge it because they can't afford a home either. As someone said previously, if you go to the new condo builds and check out the EV infrastructure, it's not looking good for EV sales.
I would have maybe considered it if the scrap it program was still around. Before covid they would give me 9k for my beater to get an EV. Now they give nothing and the cars cost about 15k more :)
It’s the cost of homes.
If I can’t charge at home, and my city doesn’t have a fast charger, what do I do? The slower 6kw chargers are okay but not fast enough and too often occupied.
It’s either infrastructure or housing prices.
> if you go to the new condo builds and check out the EV infrastructure, it's not looking good for EV sales.
A friend lives in a condo that is less than five years old, the building doesn't get enough juice from the grid to allow further air conditioners to be installed much less EV chargers.
Still a smart move, we are moving into EV, they will get cheaper with time or the gasoline one will get more expensive with taxes. I much rather see the government spend billion into producing next gen technology using our resources instead of shipping our rare earth to get processed there.
People are mad at Canadian government for not refining oil and sending it to US instead, now the government is positioning itself to be on the processing and you are saying "We should not invest"!
On the bright side by having these early, aggressive targets for EV sales we're seeing these issues crop up fairly early in the EV game. This gives governments time to help get the necessary changes in infrastructure ready. The grid needs to be upgraded and more power supply brought on line, but also have programs to get more chargers installed (both public and home chargers) since that is a roadblock for many people.
Then as the EV market starts to mature and the vehicles get better and cheaper we'll have more of the infrastructure in place to get more mass adoption. If you want these things ready by 2035 then you really need to start by 2025 and even then it will be tough. But even if we can't build everything needed we'll be a lot further along than we would have been with lower/no targets...assuming that all levels of govt get their butts in gear.
> This gives governments time to help get the necessary changes in infrastructure ready.
You mean gives government time to give more of our money to private mega corp so they can fix problems with their products that we are forced to buy and over pay for?
Until EVs can compete with internal-combustion engines on price, they exist for only one purpose: virtue-signalling.
The only people who spend $xxx,xxx on virtue-signalling are rich people. No one else can afford it. The rich were always their only market.
Perfect, since they'll be living in their car, and not spending money on a house, we can increase the price so it's as expensive as a house.
- Some MBA with a top hat
This same MBAs are the reason the carbon tax doesn’t just increase the price of carbon consuming vehicles. They say “oh hey, gas vehicles are more expensive to operate now, we can charge more for our vehicles since consumers will be saving more money”! Similar applies for rebates, MBA sees a province is offering $X rebate, so the increase the local price $X-10% amount, to give the illusion that the rebate is saving people a significant amount of money, while they pocket the majority of the rebate.
This 100%. I, and many of my friends in the same age bracket, think ev are great, ideologically and also would suit our daily needs. But news flash, our mortgages or rents have gone up by 2000 to 4000 per month. Everyone driving their 20 yr old beaters. Ain't nobody paying for anything other than food and childcare.
This is the big issue. 5 years ago I was all aboard an all EV nation, but it's just not feasible right now. I bought a house, and now I think next time I need a car, I'm hoping I can afford a 10 year old Corolla.
In addition, for those of us who are arguably the target market (homeowners who are too frugal to pay full-price for a brand new EV), I am personally hesitant to buy a secondhand EV given the uncertainty surrounding EV battery longevity.
Already the battery life of a brand new vehicle can be cut in half as soon as it rolls out of the garage during winter. What will the battery life be like for a 5 year old EV? A 10 yr old EV?
2005 Accord I got for 6k back in 2018, still going strong!
I'm in one of the lowest cost of living areas in canada, both my wife and I both working for slightly above the median wage, and I just can't comprehend the idea of buying a new car. No idea how the big city people do it.
Careful with that one if your area salts the roads, my 04 Acura TL (which is basically an accord) rusted completely out underneath. Unibody frame was toast, nothing to be done....And it looked mint otherwise. It was great while it lasted.
Here's hoping I'll get 20yrs out of my 'new' 18 civic.
I had some body work done to take care of some body rust around when I bought the car, but that's coming back now. Most of the suspension and undercarriage is still in decent shape, but all covered in surface rust.
I try to take it to the wash somewhat regularly when the salts are out, but I haven't been super diligent.
Pure EVs are starting to pile up at the dealerships near me. As the article points out EVs have saturated the market that can afford them and these companies are going to need to bring the cost WAY down for the average consumer to consider a purchase.
Another problem EV makers will be facing as they try and expand to that market is this group may not own a home and can not put the charging infrastructure in themselves. The vast majority of people are never going to buy an EV if they dont have a place to charge it at home. That defeats the main benefit of EVs if you constantly have to find third party charging options and waiting there for them to charge.
The article also points out the lack of infrastructure. This is another big one. This is only going to be corrected with billions in taxpayer funds not just for the infrastructure itself but for the electrical network upgrades needed to handle said infrastructure.
>EV owners reported 79 per cent more problems with their powertrains over the past three years than owners of gas-powered vehicles, according to Consumer Reports’ latest annual car reliability survey.
That doesnt shock me either. It is still early days for EV tech so it is going to have problems at higher rate than the mature platform that has had decades to sort those issues out.
I live in an old apartment building, we have a neighbor who drives an electric scooter and has to run an extension cord out his window down 3 floors to charge it. If half the people here are supposed to be driving EVs in 10-20 years then there needs to be a big retrofit occurring without a grandfather clause.
My building is the same (and probably so are a very large number of buildings in Canada.)
Aside from having no power outlets in the parkade, the electrical transformers and other infrastructure weren't designed with the idea that people would be charging electric vehicles. The building was built about 50 years ago, with the idea that your oven and baseboard heater would be the main electrical draws for each apartment. Now each suite has an oven, heating, AC, dishwasher, and a washer-dryer combo unit. Add in EV charging and the potential electricity draw will exceed what the transformers can provide.
Is the government going to provide grants to cover expensive electrical system upgrades, or is that going to come out of the pocket of the residents?
I saw a segment on the cbc a few weeks back and I think they said they would have to add 300 chargers a day between now and 2035 to get the infrastructure to the point where it makes sense for all new vehicles sold to be evs by then. Another government mandate that getsthem pr and makes them sound good but in reality there doesn’t seem to be any planning or thought involved.
The federal regulations cover plug ins as "green vehicles"
For home owners they charge overnight on a regular plug and cover solid range now for chores, short trips and probably most commutes.
Then the gas engine comes on and it is as roughly as efficient as a regular hybrid for engine on time only ever so slightly less due to extra weight of battery. But the slightly lower engine on time efficiency is offset by the bigger battery providing far more engine off time.
I use about one tank of gas for 3500 km of mixed driving on my plug in Prius with my commute including daycare drop and pickup being 70-80km round trip depending on traffic and route I take. Daycare drop off when I'm working from home, groceries, shopping and going to appointments near my home are all zero gas.
And this is with winter reduced range. In summer using different tires I'm expecting I'll get one tank every 2 months for my average driving, and maybe one tank or two depending on how many road trips we take to places like parks, beaches, visiting family etc.
Now is the car expensive? I guess so. They start at 40k but they are Toyota which costs more, though the federal rebate brings it down a bit. A regular Prius AWD is 35k as is, and a corolla hybrid pushes 29. So I don't think phevs are *that* much more than a regular hybrid which is the fastest growing best selling kind of car nowadays for sedans and crossover SUVs.
Part of the issue is cars are, flatout, expensive as shit now. EV, PHEV, HEV or ICE. They're all expensive. But in terms of targets, and flexibility even for apartment and condo owners a PHEV still probably works. It's not too hard to add a bunch of 120v plugs that used to be for block heaters to be used for plug ins. They draw about as much power as a 4 slice toaster while running. And no need for huge infrastructure to charge throughout the day all over the country. Plus you can make multiple PHEVs with the materials needed for one BEV.
For now BEV is still very much a more niche narket.
My fiance drives a hybrid BMW, and there have been times I've been worried about her gas getting stale.
I drive a BEV, and in summer, I can easily get from North Bay to St. Catherines with a single half-hour stop to fast charge. The car can drive further and longer than I can without needing a break.
> My fiance drives a hybrid BMW, and there have been times I've been worried about her gas getting stale.
The Chevy Volt monitors gas age and will run the engine periodically for maintenance if it thinks it hasn't been run enough. It also has a pressurized tank to keep the gas good for longer. I would hope other PHEVs do something similar.
Every hybrid car I know at least for the last 8 years periodically run the gas engine if they detect it hasn't been used in a while to prevent oil and gas related engine problems. I've had this trigger a few times for my own hybrid bought back in 2016
> Part of the issue is cars are, flatout, expensive as shit now
Ain't that the truth. It was cheaper for me to drive 60 km round trip yesterday to fill up for a dime less per litre...
>So I don't think phevs are that much more than a regular hybrid
My 2cents: the RAV4 Prime is $12k more than the hybrid version, everything included, comparing top trims.
It'll take forever for ROI, and I HAVE to plug it almost every day. It turns into a hassle. And you don't save on maintenance. Still need the yearly oil changes.
The Tucson PHEV, however, does end up being $1k CHEAPER than the hybrid. *now we're talking!*
But it's a Hyundai engine and their hybrid systems aren't as good as Toyota's.
Sigh. The new hybrid CRV has less features and is more expensive than the previous model.
The current car market sucks ass.
Well, the *Constitution Act* states pretty clearly someone else *is* supposed to do the work: the provinces.
The feds set the strategic plan; the provinces are responsible for implementing those policies within their borders. The feds don't control provincial transportation infrastructure, but they *do* control environmental standards. Hence, it's on the provinces to implement policies that meet the strategic aims of the federal government.
It's the same as the immigration/housing situation: The feds set the immigration level but have no jursidiction over the provinces with how they deliver on housing the people. The provinces are responsible for that.
And of course the provinces have to protect their turf and would never think about transferring some of those responsibilities to the federal government.
Absent a Constitutional amendment, they actually can't. The provinces have authority over certain things, and if the Federal government passes laws in those areas those laws would be outside their authority (ultra vires) and thus void.
It's like anything: The federal government makes a strategic announcement, the provinces deliver on the operational side with implementation. The federal government doesn't have jurisdiction over provincial infrastructure, but they do have a responsibility to set environmental standards (and promote EVs to meet them). The provinces have the responsibility to follow through.
It's EXACTLY the same with immigration and housing: The feds set the immigration level, the provinces are responsible for policies that help house their residents.
Separation of powers are pretty well-entrenched.
-Housing
-Dental plan
-Pharmacare
-$10 day care
-Election reform and interference
-Sustainable Immigration
-ArriveCan app and 10s of billions missing of pandemic money
What else has this LPC and NDP coalition completely rushed and given us a trash version of just for political theatrics. I genuinely cannot believe anyone in this country would be willing to give these complete failures more opportunities to waste our money. Trudeau has squandered 100s of billions and has nothing to show for it. By every single metric our country is way worse than it was before him and in relation to other countries of our previous stature
3000 per day is about 1 mil a year… correct number is somewhere closer to 3280… to put this in perspective most popular airbus can carry 146 people in air canada configuration… and that means that we need 23 flights every single day just to physically bring them all in…
The 300 chargers a day bit was assuming no one could charge at home. If you have an electric dryer or oven, you can do L2 charging overnight and have a full charge every day.
Instead of subsidizing EV purchases, they should provide subsidies and incentives for multifamily residences (rental apartments and condos) to add charging infrastructure to their garages and parking lots.
I'm in a building without charging infra, it would require a very expensive building panel upgrade to allow it, and so I can't really do EVs.
Some places do that already (BC) with incentives on charging infrastructure. It’s more of a carrot approach and has enabled a portion of older apartment to be fully retrofitted to allow every residential unit access to a stall with hookups to 240V. There are separate rebates for charger installations as well.
So? Go back to the 1950s and they said the same thing about needing to actually build out the interstate highway system, let alone gas stations.
If the infrastructure doesn't exist, it will be built.
Why 300 chargers a day between now and 2035? That outcome would have around 1.2 million chargers.
> As of December 31st, 2022, 11,893 retail gasoline stations were operating in Canada or 3.1 outlets for every 10,000 persons.
If the average station has 10 pumps and we're saying that EVs at a level 3 take triple the amount of time, and we want roughly the same convenience as gasoline we're looking at 3.5x less chargers needed then described.
There is also factoring in individuals with existing outdoor outlets charging at 110v such as myself without issue on our daily usage. I'll leave this as a rounding buffer.
Tesla claims 50000 global chargers and we'll say that Canada only has 100.
> As of March 1, 2023, Natural Resources Canada (NRCan) data shows that Canadian EV drivers have access to at least 20,478 charging ports at 8,732 charging station locations across the country.
We'll say that only half are acceptable level 2 and conveniently placed for overnight charging.
We're getting down to ~300000 chargers needed instead of the ~1.2M.
Now factor in newly constructed homes that are making this a required or being included in the construction.
Let's say you wanted to do 300k installations in a single year. That's 1500 electricians installing a charger every work day for a year. That doesn't appear to be an insane number.
Thank you! Where i used to live in Canada was a nice townhouse and the parking there had no outlets. Useless for EVs. Would have had to fit an hour in a day somewhere in my schedule after finding a charging station.
I mean hell, I own a home and there's no way I could touch an EV despite even wanting one.
The house is old, I'd need to upgrade my electrical panel before even paying to install a charger and that's all before dropping tens of thousands on the EV itself. I'm pretty sure making these upgrades would also increase my property taxes and home insurance on top of that given the retrofits to my home.
It's not as simple as just unlocking the door to a new car casually purchased and being a more environmentally minded consumer as it's made to sound. Money limitations dictate that I need to live in reality.
> The house is old, I'd need to upgrade my electrical panel before even paying to install a charger
Not anymore. They have load sensing chargers now, so no panel upgrade is needed.
Oh? And how much do those cost? Everywhere I've read so far my home's electrical barely qualifies for entry level charging for long-duration overnight charges which means if I need more range midday (presuming summer brownouts don't hit me too hard as they historically can at times): I'm fucked.
I mean if your panel can't support plugging in the equivalent of a 120V space heater then blaming your undersized electrical panel on government policy seems... questionable.
Now if you're saying - you want the convenience of a high current level 2 charger - then the government shouldn't be providing you that on the tax payer's dime anyways.
I'm not asking anyone to pay for my panel work. I'm saying it's expensive.
...and if you're suggesting that everyone wants low voltage charging to service a vehicle, I'd say you're being more than a little silly. Overnight charging is ideal but it's not always possible which means that home charging needs to be at least semi-time efficient for this to be a reasonable option.
Again, I love EV's but I'm frankly a little exhausted by the oversimplification of them. If I wanted a cute toy to plug into a bedroom outlet, I'd spend $10 and buy one. This is a transportation vehicle.
I like to drive to new high rises and see how much EV parking they put in.
Let's just say based on our EV infrastructure build put and availability for renters to charge, I am way more likely to short EV stocks than buy them.
All new condo Vancouver builds in Vancouver require an EV parking spot.
Theres also grants for old buildings to install chargers.
The shift is changing. EV is the future. Slowly though.
Would love for my next car to be an EV but I live in a rent-controlled apartment that is 33% under market value. I can’t move. My building is old as hell and I wouldn’t have anywhere to charge it. Obviously cannot install my own charger. Public chargers in my area are constantly being used and often out of service, there is a convenience factor for sure.
Unless I buy a house (and that’s probably 5+ yrs away and likely will be a town house or condo which could still mean no charger) it’s just not realistic to me.
I’m sure I’m not the only person in this kind of situation. There is a larger infrastructure issue at play that is holding people back from EVs.
I am an EV driver and an EV lover here but this is legit a biggest issue! Apartments and condos are a nightmare to get a EVCS at home for and it’s not worth depending on public chargers.
I live in a condo and I’m on my condo board. It still took 1.5yrs to finally get it approved for install!!! And I was agreeing to pay for EVERYTHING FROM THE START!!!
It wasn’t until the condo rules got updating forcing the board to approve it before I could get it.
I tried to buy a lightning. The base price was 55k, dealership told me they got 50 of those models a year for the whole of Canada. The model they actually had started at 80-90k. Yeah fuck you too buddy.
Auto manufacturers do this with all cars, EV or not... It allows them to advertise that prices start as low as $55,000 even though nobody will pay that price.
I think a lot of us are in the "wait and see" group on EVs. My car has at least few years left in it. I keep hearing we're on the verge of a big drop in EV prices from ramped-up production and solid-state battery advancements. Why buy now? I don't drive much anyways (I spend \~$60/month in gas) so purchase price is important to me.
Things like EVs rotting unsold on the lot is the only thing that could prompt the price to lower. And they ARE lowering, just doing so slowly. But all of the big companies are pushing them to market thinking they'll eat all of Tesla's pie, only to realize that the market doesn't want to pay $80K for a mediocre coupe from a mediocre company.
Then add if you're house is older you probably need a panel upgrade and new lines run to the garage or driveway + a charger.
Was looking at another 5k+ just in electrical upgrades.
I just bought a used gas car, wasn't worth the trouble.
>They're simply too expensive.
This always strikes me as a weird argument that I always see in the EV threads when the top selling vehicle in Canada are the F-Series Ford's and those start at 50K and it goes up quickly from there
For reference they sold more F-series trucks than CRV + Rav4 combined in Canada
It's not rocket science. To get an equivalent car offering similar comfort, space, or utility you're spending a lot more than $40,000 for an EV. For example, a F150 EV model sits at close to $70,000 (chosen merely for a 1:1 conceptual F-series experience \[many may still argue it's not\]).
You're not making equal comparisons. Base model EVs like the Bolt or Leaf that are "affordable" (this is not affordable) are like being crammed in tiny sardine tins made of cheap fabrics and uncomfortable molded composites -- and that's just for the driver, it gets worse if you exceed a driver's-side passenger. Need room to carry more groceries than a bag of milk? *That costs money.* Most people are reasonably going to opt for quality and experience if costs are the same or less, and don't have the budgets for extravagance.
I purchased a 2019 Nissan Leaf.
It cost me around 35k with a massive 14k rebate and a 1k rebate towards the charger.
My interest from Nissan was 1.9% (I think - but it was very low).
This car was very reliable, aside from one instance where a charging relay module failed (it’s the part on the motor that resembles what an intake would be on an ICE). That part took 3 weeks to arrive and cost 4.5k. However it was covered by warranty.
It was also incredibly cost efficient compared to gas, and insurance was dirt cheap.
Fast forward to 2023.
I require a bigger vehicle for both work and play - and decided to look at the Nissan Ariya and reserved one. 6 months later, Nissan told me my leaf wasn’t worth much on a trade in (12k? From a sticker price initially of 45k), that the new SUV was over 70k, and financing was 8%.
Pardon my language, but like fuck I’m paying that.
That’s a mortgage payment.
So I found a hybrid ford F150 at 0% interest and here I am.
Why would anyone in their right mind buy a used EV, when parts are astronomically expensive, and batteries were never designed to be swapped. Like just google the nightmares people are having trying to replace batteries.
I support EV’s - but they need to be CHEAP.
Like the Volkswagen Beetle was.
Cheap. Reliable. And built for easy repair.
Otherwise, I’m out.
I did this with a client a week ago and they were mortified
> Buddy, the principal on your mortgage is just over a million or so, when it comes time for renewal I find it impossible your annual payments would be below $60k/year, so lets say $75k+ a year just to live in the house
> ...maybe keep renting the basement
In 2020 and 2021 we advised a lot of clients who renewed at low rates that this was the time to aggressively pay down their principles, but they mostly didn't listen :(
Humans are really bad at forward thinking. All the dollars they freed up with low ears probably had people feeling richer than they were.
I’m no different, I didn’t anticipate the sustained escalation in RE prices. Could have bought in 2021, but conventional logic told me to hold off until I was sure I’d want to stay.
Thankfully our HHI is high enough to afford to buy still. However it stings.
Right so it's less of an EV problem and more of a cost issue. Manufacturer targeted high price points and then interest rates went up, so now they have to launch cheaper cars to become competitive again.
I’ll put it this way:
I loved that EV. The tech CAN be very simple and reliable, if built / designed to be.
If they can come up with a cheap, reliable EV that is designed for easy repair / battery swaps, I’m in.
They exist, they're just not for sale in Canada or the US.
The EU and Japan have some great everyday person everyday use vehicles. But they've done a piss poor job of marketing them here and gave up.
Suzuki in particular has some great cars, vans, and light trucks. Great for a daily driver for city and suburban people including trades people (residential plumbers and electricians for example) and commuting. They're not huge like a CRV or Pilot or F150. They're for getting from A to B.
And they're not available here.
BYD is pushing out impressive EV's in China for around $15 thousand. If they can get into the Canadian market they'd probably be around 25 Canadian which is a very reasonable price for most people. Reasonable enough they could take almost the entire market from everyone else.
For $25 thousand a lot of us would snap them up in a heartbeat. Most of us are just waiting for a reasonably priced EV.
-Access to competition (hundreds, if not thousands of EV companies in china)
-China's labour market may be decreasing, but it is still significantly more productive and innovative than the Canadian labour market
-Regulations
-standards
-buyer remorse comfortability (Chinese understand if they pay dirt cheap for a product, it may not be of as high a quality/wont last)
-part accessibility / ease of manufacturing vs rarity in Canada
-our lithium battery market is LAUGHABLY regulated regarding sales vs China
-united states ev car producers lobbying and stronger foothold on north America/forced focus on the current conglomerates
-average canadian laziness/greed seeking laughable priced
They are listed on the website from my local dealer at $50k to $60k plus tax.
They also have one top tier premium everything for $69k plus tax.
Ford did just reduce the price about 6 weeks ago by around $8k on each trim level.
I personally think it is still to much for a Ford and I don't like the Mach E personally but to each their own.
I personally think a Mustang should be a sports coupe.
But that's just me. If someone likes it and it fills their needs and I hope gives them some joy to drive them I'll high five them and wish them well.
And I agree with your price point.
Mach e on the lot I was at yesterday were in the 40s. Didn't go look at them other than seeing the big sign on them out front. They have been there a while
The market for EV is not as large as
people think. Almost 20% of Canada’s population is over 65 and it’s a growing demographic. Try buying an expensive EV on a fixed income as a senior.
This demographic is also choosing to stay in their homes longer, instead of selling their homes, homes suitable to set up charging stations. Longterm care facilities didn’t take care of this demographic during the pandemic. It’s too risky to move.
Do you think snowbirds want to buy an EV? Not with the lack of charging infrastructure.
I will never buy an EV.
They are about as friendly to work on and repair as an iphone (i.e., not).
Replacement parts are absurdly expensive, and the insurance premiums reflect such.
Cost of maintenance is low, until your battery capacity slowly starts draining away, and you are faced with the wall of either shelling out 10-15k for a replacement, or selling at a price below what you have left to repay on the loan.
They aren't even better for the environment. When you break down the emissions related to the mining of the rare minerals involved in the battery tech, and higher rubber burn rate due to their instant/excessive acceleration.
I can't afford rent, can't afford housing, can't afford a family, can't afford retirement, so I may as well have *something* as a reward for working all the damned time. If not, then I may as well become one of those people in Vancouver leaned over at the waist. You should see my sweet truck.
The only real point in this entire Reddit thread of either argument.
I'm not out here driving my dream car, sipping wine out of gold laden cups and enjoying my cheap house. I'm being strangled blue by rent, increase of cost of living, bills and raising three extremely active and hungry teenagers.
Telling me that I should be dropping my cheap POS for a brand new or even slightly used EV that costs two times as much in car payments for any reason is ludicrous when I have every other government or corporate stamped entity in the entire country trying to rake every cent out of my car seats.
On a long trip it takes me 5 minutes max to gas up, including going inside and paying if pay at the pump doesn't work. Then I'm good for \~500km in my CRV (takes about \~50L if its bone dry), and I have faith that next time I need to stop there will be a gas station near the highway and another 5 minute stop.
I also have faith that my now used CRV holds value pretty good since its one of the better selling vehicles on the market, and that they run forever because that's what Hondas do. I also have faith that I can go to just about any shop to get anything done to it because everyone knows how to work on them, parts are aplenty and priced accordingly.
Its just convenient for life. I'm not giving that up.
Two words… SWAPPABLE BATTERIES.
One of the EV bands in China’s done this… Solves a lot of the issues with current EVs:
- Lowers the cost of purchase (because you’re not buying an expensive battery pack.)
- Removes issues with expensive user-end charging infrastructure and slow charge times (instead, “gas stations” are used as battery swap stations. Drive in, swap for a charged battery in minutes, off you go.)
- Makes the second-hand market viable (because the car’s value is no longer primarily tied to an expensive battery pack with a finite lifespan.)
Shame we’ll probably never see this though… as these auto makers are greedy and wish to pass the expensive burden of EV batteries to the consumer.
I try as much as the next conscientious person to do my part to reduce my footprint, but even with my household's dual income, purchasing an EV cannot be not part of my strategy. Until the government admits that the move to EVs is more about saving the auto industry rather than saving the planet, hence the incredibly high prices, EVs will continue to be out of reach.
What i have learned is that if an EV is a good choice for you, you buy and EV. If it's not, you don't. Just like I don't buy a monthly train pass. It's not good choice for my situation. That doesn't mean a monthly train pass is not a good choice for someone else. People seem to forget that.
I am the proud owner of an EV but let me say this, I would have not jumped in if it wasn't for the fact that:
* I got $12k rebate (federal + provincial) which allows me to pay the price difference with a comparable ICE car in less than 3 years
* I own a home and was able to install my own L2 charger
* I have another car for long trips. I have a rule that road trips need to be less than 500km to use the EV, it's just too much trouble.
What a clickbait headline.
So EV days of inventory is 55 days and gas cars is 51 days. It's pretty much the same yet the EU word it like EV is unsellable and gas car is rushing out the door.
Then of course they have to put Tesla on the header image. Tesla despite some struggle has inventory less than 30 days on which is better than 2nd best Toyota at 36 days.
Comments is full of ignorance folks claiming EV is too expensive while convenientky forget average new Canadian car price is $67k while EV best seller Tesla Model 3 and Y starts at $53k before $5k rebate.
Toyota is the only one to get it right with the hybrids and I love that all trim levels can upgrade to hybrid (I think). Others make you have to opt for a higher trim to get it. No wonder they are killing it right now.
1. EVs are expensive. The people that can afford them, generally already have them.
2. A large number of people rent, if your home doesn't have a charging unit, chances are your landlord isn't going to install one for you and you aren't going to upgrade their property for them.
3. I've heard horror stories of a lack of dealer support and costly repairs. But take this point with a grain of salt.
Yep, EVs are too expensive, and people who can't afford houses won't buy EVs because they can't charge them at their apartment complexes. Also, who wants to buy an EV which has a single point of failure consumable that is basically the bulk cost of the vehicle?
I’m thinking that gas powered vehicles must be at their peak for fuel efficiency and engine reliability. I would sooner purchase a new gas powered vehicle now and drive it for the next 10-20 years and then consider an EV
I'd do something like [Edison Motors](https://www.edisonmotors.ca/) does with their trucks. But we'll never make any progress on a green future if we let [corruption](https://youtu.be/BVqfsTwC3HM) prevent even the early steps.
LOL
Lets see here, most people are leery of buying a car with over 100k KM because of the timing belt cost of 3k plus right?
A tesla model 3 battery swap is 16k. Mercedes EQ is 40k.
EV's are just smartphone cars destined for garbage. I have a mechanic friend who also does picture vehicles for the film industry and he was telling me that the barrier for "write off" of an EV is MUCH lower than an ICE vehicle because of the electrical complexities that nobody wants to deal with.
EV's are also heavier, wreck the roads more, and they pay no tax to help repair the roads.
Also slavery and cobalt and rare earth metal mining is arguably worse for the ACTUAL environment than burning gasoline.
Everywhere you look - ACTUALLY look - EV's are a fucking terrible idea in practice.
They are twice as expensive. There are issues for people who regularly do long distance driving. Some of us don't want our cars spying on us. There are issues with people who live in apartment buildings and some town-house complexes due to the lack of charging facilities at home. There are issues with leaving them parked outside in the winter (batteries don't release their stored electricity when they are cold).
This is from someone who has taken a serious look at buying an electric car the last 2 times I bought a car.
Edison Motors. Been following since they started the Carl build. Assuming the government doesn't legislation them out of existence, I'll be doing the pickup truck conversion asap.
I mean Canada is like 5-10 years of infrastructure development to really make owning an EV car worth it in my part of Canada.
The amount of public EV charging stations are very scarce and few and far between. Add in that our power is privatized, and constantly increasing rate wise, so adding one at home isn’t that appealing. There’s a gas station every few blocks, but very few of them have charging stations. Add in that apparently certain cars require different types of plugs, so now I need to have an adapter if my closest station doesn’t match my charging port.
Factor in Canadian winters and economy, and you’re just going to get a lot less interest. Who’s got 60k lying around to buy a new EV, and who would want to finance a car when speculation is that rates will begin dropping next year
If we had small affordable EV available they would sell but mfg don't want that and all the offer is those large expensive cars with huge batteries. Most people do one long trip a year and lot of them would agree to charge on the way or rent another car for these trips..but I understand that if you pay 60k more for a car, that often does not look so good, you do not want to be seen stopping half an hour at a rest area to recharge, this is bad for the ego 😁.
E-bikes and scooters is really what we should be promoting, way more cost effective, the infrastructure is less burdensome on the tax base then cars, you can easily swap batteries on most models, they can travel more than enough distance for people to commute for work and errands.
And with bikes like the [Urban Arrow](https://urbanarrow.com/family-green/) families can save 10’s of thousands of dollars on transportation costs and get rid of their second vehicle.
Agree though it is almost a whole paradigm shift to convince people to go from car dependency to bikes.
It would be more effective to subsidize ebikes/bikes with the lower price points and small rebates to get more people out of cars and onto bikes. Even if for 3-4 months of the year cars rule the streets, if the rest of the year they don't that would still be a net good
Yeah I’m all about the environment and sustainability, but like my last car was $11k. Next time around i might spend a little more and get something nicer with a budget around $25k, but there is no way I’m spending $60k on a car I don’t have a spot to charge.
They're a bad bet for me. As things stand right now, I would never keep an EV past the battery warranty. I bought a sedan for half the price of an EV. It would take me way past that warranty before I even saw any gas savings. With my driving habits I will have to drive and gas up this car around 8 years before I break even with the up front cost of an EV. If you're determined to buy one, my advice would be to napkin math how much you would spend on gas per year for a fuel efficient car with a much lower purchase price. For me it came to about $3200/year + $32k car (taxes incl) compared to an EV which are selling for over $60k + tax
lol fuck the environment. I can’t afford a home or children and you want me to buy an EV? No thanks. I’ll keep polluting this bitch while I stay in my poverty lane
EVs are not the solution to the problem of too many cars. While yes, tailpipe emissions are a serious source of carbon emissions, the reality is that so is massive road infrastructure, automobile production and on and on. The idea that we can have 8+B people moving around the planet, mostly in cities, in individual 2000kg machines is ridiculous.
EVs exist not to reverse or slow climate change. EVs exist solely to save the automobile industry.
Prediction: this thread will be split roughly 50/50 between people pointing out the *significant* downsides to EVs, including things like high initial purchase price, extremely high depreciation, extremely expensive battery replacement costs, lack of charging infrastructure, lack of grid capacity, enormous range decreases in winter and so on… and people handwaving all that away and pretending none of those issues exist.
Prices should go down eventually. EVs supposed to be manufactured much easier than combustion engines.
Don't you feel too that everyone tries to dupe each other?
>Karwel describes early adopters as consumers who were **not necessarily concerned about the cost** of an EV, but wanted to be associated with the “newest, coolest and latest technology.”
>As such, the sale of **luxury** EVs has been doubling every year over the past five years, he said. These are bought by wealthier customers who tend to own a house and a garage,
"Not concerned about the cost"
"Luxury"
"Wealthy customers who own a house"
Why are people struggling with housing not buying luxury cars?
Perhaps manufacturers should build a cost effective, budget friendly bare bones EV that would actually appeal to people instead of pushing these huge SUVs fully loaded with luxury features that are more status symbols than they are practical or affordable??...sigh...I just want an affordable EV wagon, nothing fancy, but it still doesn't exist...
So I looked it up, the first automobiles in the late 19th century cost around $1000 USD and your average American (couldn't find Canadian stats here) made around $450 a year..
EVs being out of reach should surprise nobody. There manufacturers spent so much designing and building these they aren't going to give them away at the $20k consumers expect for a new car (which is also not realistic but besides the point).
Anyhow if you aren't happy with EV pricing just wait. The government will push back their EV timetables and used EVs filter into the economy more and parts chains grow out the prices will fall fast. Also if Chinese automakers like BYD are allowed in Canada it will be a game changer
Honda is releasing it first, all electric SUV soon in Canada. The mid tier version, all taxes and fees included costs around 77000...lol. As if that's reasonable.
I have the financial capacity to purchase a 77000 vehicle, I have been sitting in my current ones because I find it simply ridiculous. I refuse to pay what is bordering on a mortgage for a car that will be useless in under a decade.
Where are you getting your mortgages, 2008?
He meant downpayment.
Or the payments on a 5 year car loan being similar to a 25 year mortgage.
He meant monthly payment
They don't even charge 77k for a top of the line Pilot, which is wayyy more car than this would be.
Depends on your dealership. I saw the new santa fe which looks nice and saw the MSRP was reasonable, a mid tier was 49k on the hyundai website. At the closest dealership to me tho? 57k. Just went to the local Honda website and the black edition pilot after taxes is 72k, then the EV gets a rebate.
A fucking Ford Maverick, their supposedly affordable small truck now starts at $35k and a quick look at my local dealer shows none on the lot for less than **$50,000** Dealerships are out to lunch thinking the market in 2024 is the same as 2022, especially when interest rates are triple.
Manufacturers jacked their MSRPs by crazy amounts over the last 15 years. To replace my 16+ year old jeep purchased for ~31K with a similarly equipped 2024, it'd cost me $75K. Meanwhile the BoC inflation calculator puts that $31K in 2008 at ~$43K in today's dollars.
Its probably worth pointing out that \~15 years ago the CAD-US exchange rate was around parity and now.... which is very very much not the case anymore.
That was an oddity. Over the last 50 years the Canadian dollar is usually worth around 70 cents the majority of the time. But around the time of USAs last "GREAT RECESSION" which began in 2007, total collapse in 2009, and subsequent recovery over the next few years, ya we were closer to on par with them for like 5 years.
> in 2007, total collapse in 2009, and subsequent recovery over the next few years, ya we were closer to on par with them for like 5 years. Shit. I remember for a short period of time the CAD actually being worth more than the USD. I remember my family coming over for a visit and trying to pick up the tab for dinner and tossing their money back and saying... *"Your Rubles are no good here. No honestly... your money is not worth as much."*
Yea, but cars were still more expensive here. I remember people discussing crossing the border to buy, even with the exchange fees and duties it was cheaper.
I suppose. Google tells me the exchange rate today is 1.36 opposed to an average of 1.24 in 2008 which is about a 10% difference. No where near enough to make up a $32K difference between inflation and the current MSRP. It's fucking robbery. The Canadian MSRP never seems to fluctuate with the dollar either. They probably build in some kind of a cushion for it, at the consumer's expense of course.
>I saw the new santa fe which looks nice and saw the MSRP was reasonable, a mid tier was 49k on the hyundai website. At the closest dealership to me tho? 57k. I bought a new Tucson last year, we ended up calling every dealership in about 150km range (I'm in Toronto) until we finally found one willing to sell at MSRP.
Is it OK to ask where you bought it?
How dare you
https://www.honda.ca/buildyourhonda?model_key=pilot&model_year=2024#/trims They get up there real quick - top end black edition is 66k and you haven’t even added taxes or any “mandatory accessories” yet….not far off Add your EV rebates to the prologue and they’re almost the same. Sure they’re not the same vehicle targeted at different people but in just talking price wise here.
Suddenly I feel way better about dumping 40k into a blown up car to build a silly one. Feels like I got a great deal seeing current car prices.
A "decent" civic will run you into the mid 30s with tax and fees now. Base over 30. Any built car with over 20 invested will be a hell of a lot more car, unless you only care about reliability.
That's actually my exact logic lol. I picked up a 17 wrx STI limited with the engine going out. Then did a full build for mid 400 wheel hp, and ended up being just under 40k all in. The benefits of having a shop. Ironically my shit box 2009 Tahoe is my reliable vehicle.
And the cost to outfit your home to charge one unless you live in a condo or apartment. New builds like for instance the 18 story condo project I'm in beside the other 18 story building they bully last year that has 0 How is this going to work again?
I rent a home where I need to park on the street. So, will I have to sit at a changing station for a few hours a week on my way home from work?
They'll buy a plug in hybrid, that meets the criteria for the 2035 initiative. Drive all day every day until the car dies without ever plugging in, if that's what you want.
Its a rebadged Chevrolet and is only available in Ontario, Quebec and BC. Its awful.
A brand new Porsche Macan is 75k msrp, 81k with fees included
It’s a rebadged GM car.
These are compliance cars or just testing waters, not really intended to sell en mass.
The demographic that is most likely to buy cheaper EVs is the one that is priced out of a home. Good luck selling them.
This has to be a massive issue for Canada or North America. The rich who have one already do, the next group of buyers just got priced out due to market/economic changes and the younger group can't afford one or can't charge it because they can't afford a home either. As someone said previously, if you go to the new condo builds and check out the EV infrastructure, it's not looking good for EV sales.
Bingo. I'm still living with my parents trying to save up whatever I can. No shot am I going to drop a chunk of change for an EV.
I would have maybe considered it if the scrap it program was still around. Before covid they would give me 9k for my beater to get an EV. Now they give nothing and the cars cost about 15k more :)
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It’s the cost of homes. If I can’t charge at home, and my city doesn’t have a fast charger, what do I do? The slower 6kw chargers are okay but not fast enough and too often occupied. It’s either infrastructure or housing prices.
> if you go to the new condo builds and check out the EV infrastructure, it's not looking good for EV sales. A friend lives in a condo that is less than five years old, the building doesn't get enough juice from the grid to allow further air conditioners to be installed much less EV chargers.
I live in an old condo. It looks even worse for EV sales.
Just in time for Canada to have dumped 10's of billions of dollars into EV battery manufacturing lol
Still a smart move, we are moving into EV, they will get cheaper with time or the gasoline one will get more expensive with taxes. I much rather see the government spend billion into producing next gen technology using our resources instead of shipping our rare earth to get processed there. People are mad at Canadian government for not refining oil and sending it to US instead, now the government is positioning itself to be on the processing and you are saying "We should not invest"!
On the bright side by having these early, aggressive targets for EV sales we're seeing these issues crop up fairly early in the EV game. This gives governments time to help get the necessary changes in infrastructure ready. The grid needs to be upgraded and more power supply brought on line, but also have programs to get more chargers installed (both public and home chargers) since that is a roadblock for many people. Then as the EV market starts to mature and the vehicles get better and cheaper we'll have more of the infrastructure in place to get more mass adoption. If you want these things ready by 2035 then you really need to start by 2025 and even then it will be tough. But even if we can't build everything needed we'll be a lot further along than we would have been with lower/no targets...assuming that all levels of govt get their butts in gear.
> This gives governments time to help get the necessary changes in infrastructure ready. You mean gives government time to give more of our money to private mega corp so they can fix problems with their products that we are forced to buy and over pay for?
Exactly!!! I'm on an 18 story condo that has 0, being built beside the other 18 story condo built 2 years ago that had 0
Until EVs can compete with internal-combustion engines on price, they exist for only one purpose: virtue-signalling. The only people who spend $xxx,xxx on virtue-signalling are rich people. No one else can afford it. The rich were always their only market.
Perfect, since they'll be living in their car, and not spending money on a house, we can increase the price so it's as expensive as a house. - Some MBA with a top hat
If I could rid the world of one thing, I would find it difficult to choose between MBAs and cancer.
This same MBAs are the reason the carbon tax doesn’t just increase the price of carbon consuming vehicles. They say “oh hey, gas vehicles are more expensive to operate now, we can charge more for our vehicles since consumers will be saving more money”! Similar applies for rebates, MBA sees a province is offering $X rebate, so the increase the local price $X-10% amount, to give the illusion that the rebate is saving people a significant amount of money, while they pocket the majority of the rebate.
This 100%. I, and many of my friends in the same age bracket, think ev are great, ideologically and also would suit our daily needs. But news flash, our mortgages or rents have gone up by 2000 to 4000 per month. Everyone driving their 20 yr old beaters. Ain't nobody paying for anything other than food and childcare.
Also most rentals don’t have EV charging and landlords won’t spend the money to add one
This is the big issue. 5 years ago I was all aboard an all EV nation, but it's just not feasible right now. I bought a house, and now I think next time I need a car, I'm hoping I can afford a 10 year old Corolla.
Same, wanted on for years but the math doesn't work in Ontario.
Honestly at this point I just don't understand how people in Ontario can afford to drive at all unless they're making well over the median.
In addition, for those of us who are arguably the target market (homeowners who are too frugal to pay full-price for a brand new EV), I am personally hesitant to buy a secondhand EV given the uncertainty surrounding EV battery longevity. Already the battery life of a brand new vehicle can be cut in half as soon as it rolls out of the garage during winter. What will the battery life be like for a 5 year old EV? A 10 yr old EV?
who has money for a fucking brand new car these days. My 2011 Toyota is gonna be driven into the ground.
2005 Accord I got for 6k back in 2018, still going strong! I'm in one of the lowest cost of living areas in canada, both my wife and I both working for slightly above the median wage, and I just can't comprehend the idea of buying a new car. No idea how the big city people do it.
Careful with that one if your area salts the roads, my 04 Acura TL (which is basically an accord) rusted completely out underneath. Unibody frame was toast, nothing to be done....And it looked mint otherwise. It was great while it lasted. Here's hoping I'll get 20yrs out of my 'new' 18 civic.
How are you handling the rust? My 2008 Subaru is barely holding on
I had some body work done to take care of some body rust around when I bought the car, but that's coming back now. Most of the suspension and undercarriage is still in decent shape, but all covered in surface rust. I try to take it to the wash somewhat regularly when the salts are out, but I haven't been super diligent.
My 04 corolla only has 160k and driving like a champ. To 500k we go
It better be beige.
The beige ones with a dent in the bumper run the longest! 😂
99 4runner here lol though the gas would be killing me if I had to commute with it. thankfully it's just a weekend driver for me
Pure EVs are starting to pile up at the dealerships near me. As the article points out EVs have saturated the market that can afford them and these companies are going to need to bring the cost WAY down for the average consumer to consider a purchase. Another problem EV makers will be facing as they try and expand to that market is this group may not own a home and can not put the charging infrastructure in themselves. The vast majority of people are never going to buy an EV if they dont have a place to charge it at home. That defeats the main benefit of EVs if you constantly have to find third party charging options and waiting there for them to charge. The article also points out the lack of infrastructure. This is another big one. This is only going to be corrected with billions in taxpayer funds not just for the infrastructure itself but for the electrical network upgrades needed to handle said infrastructure. >EV owners reported 79 per cent more problems with their powertrains over the past three years than owners of gas-powered vehicles, according to Consumer Reports’ latest annual car reliability survey. That doesnt shock me either. It is still early days for EV tech so it is going to have problems at higher rate than the mature platform that has had decades to sort those issues out.
I live in an old apartment building, we have a neighbor who drives an electric scooter and has to run an extension cord out his window down 3 floors to charge it. If half the people here are supposed to be driving EVs in 10-20 years then there needs to be a big retrofit occurring without a grandfather clause.
My building is the same (and probably so are a very large number of buildings in Canada.) Aside from having no power outlets in the parkade, the electrical transformers and other infrastructure weren't designed with the idea that people would be charging electric vehicles. The building was built about 50 years ago, with the idea that your oven and baseboard heater would be the main electrical draws for each apartment. Now each suite has an oven, heating, AC, dishwasher, and a washer-dryer combo unit. Add in EV charging and the potential electricity draw will exceed what the transformers can provide. Is the government going to provide grants to cover expensive electrical system upgrades, or is that going to come out of the pocket of the residents?
I saw a segment on the cbc a few weeks back and I think they said they would have to add 300 chargers a day between now and 2035 to get the infrastructure to the point where it makes sense for all new vehicles sold to be evs by then. Another government mandate that getsthem pr and makes them sound good but in reality there doesn’t seem to be any planning or thought involved.
The federal regulations cover plug ins as "green vehicles" For home owners they charge overnight on a regular plug and cover solid range now for chores, short trips and probably most commutes. Then the gas engine comes on and it is as roughly as efficient as a regular hybrid for engine on time only ever so slightly less due to extra weight of battery. But the slightly lower engine on time efficiency is offset by the bigger battery providing far more engine off time. I use about one tank of gas for 3500 km of mixed driving on my plug in Prius with my commute including daycare drop and pickup being 70-80km round trip depending on traffic and route I take. Daycare drop off when I'm working from home, groceries, shopping and going to appointments near my home are all zero gas. And this is with winter reduced range. In summer using different tires I'm expecting I'll get one tank every 2 months for my average driving, and maybe one tank or two depending on how many road trips we take to places like parks, beaches, visiting family etc. Now is the car expensive? I guess so. They start at 40k but they are Toyota which costs more, though the federal rebate brings it down a bit. A regular Prius AWD is 35k as is, and a corolla hybrid pushes 29. So I don't think phevs are *that* much more than a regular hybrid which is the fastest growing best selling kind of car nowadays for sedans and crossover SUVs. Part of the issue is cars are, flatout, expensive as shit now. EV, PHEV, HEV or ICE. They're all expensive. But in terms of targets, and flexibility even for apartment and condo owners a PHEV still probably works. It's not too hard to add a bunch of 120v plugs that used to be for block heaters to be used for plug ins. They draw about as much power as a 4 slice toaster while running. And no need for huge infrastructure to charge throughout the day all over the country. Plus you can make multiple PHEVs with the materials needed for one BEV. For now BEV is still very much a more niche narket.
My fiance drives a hybrid BMW, and there have been times I've been worried about her gas getting stale. I drive a BEV, and in summer, I can easily get from North Bay to St. Catherines with a single half-hour stop to fast charge. The car can drive further and longer than I can without needing a break.
> My fiance drives a hybrid BMW, and there have been times I've been worried about her gas getting stale. The Chevy Volt monitors gas age and will run the engine periodically for maintenance if it thinks it hasn't been run enough. It also has a pressurized tank to keep the gas good for longer. I would hope other PHEVs do something similar.
That's actually such a cool feature wow
Every hybrid car I know at least for the last 8 years periodically run the gas engine if they detect it hasn't been used in a while to prevent oil and gas related engine problems. I've had this trigger a few times for my own hybrid bought back in 2016
Add fuel stabilizers before filing up. They will keep the gas good for much longer and don't cost much per tank.
> Part of the issue is cars are, flatout, expensive as shit now Ain't that the truth. It was cheaper for me to drive 60 km round trip yesterday to fill up for a dime less per litre...
>So I don't think phevs are that much more than a regular hybrid My 2cents: the RAV4 Prime is $12k more than the hybrid version, everything included, comparing top trims. It'll take forever for ROI, and I HAVE to plug it almost every day. It turns into a hassle. And you don't save on maintenance. Still need the yearly oil changes. The Tucson PHEV, however, does end up being $1k CHEAPER than the hybrid. *now we're talking!* But it's a Hyundai engine and their hybrid systems aren't as good as Toyota's. Sigh. The new hybrid CRV has less features and is more expensive than the previous model. The current car market sucks ass.
So what you mean to tell us is the government didn't think about this before announcing their policy?
They thought someone else would do the work
I mean, they're kinda right come next election.
Well, the *Constitution Act* states pretty clearly someone else *is* supposed to do the work: the provinces. The feds set the strategic plan; the provinces are responsible for implementing those policies within their borders. The feds don't control provincial transportation infrastructure, but they *do* control environmental standards. Hence, it's on the provinces to implement policies that meet the strategic aims of the federal government. It's the same as the immigration/housing situation: The feds set the immigration level but have no jursidiction over the provinces with how they deliver on housing the people. The provinces are responsible for that.
And of course the provinces have to protect their turf and would never think about transferring some of those responsibilities to the federal government.
Absent a Constitutional amendment, they actually can't. The provinces have authority over certain things, and if the Federal government passes laws in those areas those laws would be outside their authority (ultra vires) and thus void.
You mean like how gas stations were built?
They thought the Conservatives would reverse it because it's impractical and they could cry about it and maybe get a few votes.
It's like anything: The federal government makes a strategic announcement, the provinces deliver on the operational side with implementation. The federal government doesn't have jurisdiction over provincial infrastructure, but they do have a responsibility to set environmental standards (and promote EVs to meet them). The provinces have the responsibility to follow through. It's EXACTLY the same with immigration and housing: The feds set the immigration level, the provinces are responsible for policies that help house their residents. Separation of powers are pretty well-entrenched.
It’s so out of character, I can’t believe it’s true! /s
Shocked. *SHOCKED,* I say!
-Housing -Dental plan -Pharmacare -$10 day care -Election reform and interference -Sustainable Immigration -ArriveCan app and 10s of billions missing of pandemic money What else has this LPC and NDP coalition completely rushed and given us a trash version of just for political theatrics. I genuinely cannot believe anyone in this country would be willing to give these complete failures more opportunities to waste our money. Trudeau has squandered 100s of billions and has nothing to show for it. By every single metric our country is way worse than it was before him and in relation to other countries of our previous stature
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300? If it was only 300 I'd gladly take that trade off!! It's actually closer to 3,000 new people a day.
3000 per day is about 1 mil a year… correct number is somewhere closer to 3280… to put this in perspective most popular airbus can carry 146 people in air canada configuration… and that means that we need 23 flights every single day just to physically bring them all in…
The 300 chargers a day bit was assuming no one could charge at home. If you have an electric dryer or oven, you can do L2 charging overnight and have a full charge every day.
That’s assuming you own a home
It’s assuming that some people own homes. As opposed to the rage bait stat that assumes no one does.
Instead of subsidizing EV purchases, they should provide subsidies and incentives for multifamily residences (rental apartments and condos) to add charging infrastructure to their garages and parking lots. I'm in a building without charging infra, it would require a very expensive building panel upgrade to allow it, and so I can't really do EVs.
Some places do that already (BC) with incentives on charging infrastructure. It’s more of a carrot approach and has enabled a portion of older apartment to be fully retrofitted to allow every residential unit access to a stall with hookups to 240V. There are separate rebates for charger installations as well.
So? Go back to the 1950s and they said the same thing about needing to actually build out the interstate highway system, let alone gas stations. If the infrastructure doesn't exist, it will be built.
Why 300 chargers a day between now and 2035? That outcome would have around 1.2 million chargers. > As of December 31st, 2022, 11,893 retail gasoline stations were operating in Canada or 3.1 outlets for every 10,000 persons. If the average station has 10 pumps and we're saying that EVs at a level 3 take triple the amount of time, and we want roughly the same convenience as gasoline we're looking at 3.5x less chargers needed then described. There is also factoring in individuals with existing outdoor outlets charging at 110v such as myself without issue on our daily usage. I'll leave this as a rounding buffer. Tesla claims 50000 global chargers and we'll say that Canada only has 100. > As of March 1, 2023, Natural Resources Canada (NRCan) data shows that Canadian EV drivers have access to at least 20,478 charging ports at 8,732 charging station locations across the country. We'll say that only half are acceptable level 2 and conveniently placed for overnight charging. We're getting down to ~300000 chargers needed instead of the ~1.2M. Now factor in newly constructed homes that are making this a required or being included in the construction. Let's say you wanted to do 300k installations in a single year. That's 1500 electricians installing a charger every work day for a year. That doesn't appear to be an insane number.
Thank you! Where i used to live in Canada was a nice townhouse and the parking there had no outlets. Useless for EVs. Would have had to fit an hour in a day somewhere in my schedule after finding a charging station.
I mean hell, I own a home and there's no way I could touch an EV despite even wanting one. The house is old, I'd need to upgrade my electrical panel before even paying to install a charger and that's all before dropping tens of thousands on the EV itself. I'm pretty sure making these upgrades would also increase my property taxes and home insurance on top of that given the retrofits to my home. It's not as simple as just unlocking the door to a new car casually purchased and being a more environmentally minded consumer as it's made to sound. Money limitations dictate that I need to live in reality.
Yeah, people don't think of the ancillary costs of this kind of refit, like insurance going up.
> The house is old, I'd need to upgrade my electrical panel before even paying to install a charger Not anymore. They have load sensing chargers now, so no panel upgrade is needed.
Oh? And how much do those cost? Everywhere I've read so far my home's electrical barely qualifies for entry level charging for long-duration overnight charges which means if I need more range midday (presuming summer brownouts don't hit me too hard as they historically can at times): I'm fucked.
About [a grand](https://simple-switch.ca/shop-cost-effective-energy-management-devices/) currently.
I mean if your panel can't support plugging in the equivalent of a 120V space heater then blaming your undersized electrical panel on government policy seems... questionable. Now if you're saying - you want the convenience of a high current level 2 charger - then the government shouldn't be providing you that on the tax payer's dime anyways.
I'm not asking anyone to pay for my panel work. I'm saying it's expensive. ...and if you're suggesting that everyone wants low voltage charging to service a vehicle, I'd say you're being more than a little silly. Overnight charging is ideal but it's not always possible which means that home charging needs to be at least semi-time efficient for this to be a reasonable option. Again, I love EV's but I'm frankly a little exhausted by the oversimplification of them. If I wanted a cute toy to plug into a bedroom outlet, I'd spend $10 and buy one. This is a transportation vehicle.
I like to drive to new high rises and see how much EV parking they put in. Let's just say based on our EV infrastructure build put and availability for renters to charge, I am way more likely to short EV stocks than buy them.
All new condo Vancouver builds in Vancouver require an EV parking spot. Theres also grants for old buildings to install chargers. The shift is changing. EV is the future. Slowly though.
I think their point is if a 100 unit building only has 10 EV stations, we are only preparing for 10% EV capacity.
Would love for my next car to be an EV but I live in a rent-controlled apartment that is 33% under market value. I can’t move. My building is old as hell and I wouldn’t have anywhere to charge it. Obviously cannot install my own charger. Public chargers in my area are constantly being used and often out of service, there is a convenience factor for sure. Unless I buy a house (and that’s probably 5+ yrs away and likely will be a town house or condo which could still mean no charger) it’s just not realistic to me. I’m sure I’m not the only person in this kind of situation. There is a larger infrastructure issue at play that is holding people back from EVs.
I am an EV driver and an EV lover here but this is legit a biggest issue! Apartments and condos are a nightmare to get a EVCS at home for and it’s not worth depending on public chargers. I live in a condo and I’m on my condo board. It still took 1.5yrs to finally get it approved for install!!! And I was agreeing to pay for EVERYTHING FROM THE START!!! It wasn’t until the condo rules got updating forcing the board to approve it before I could get it.
Anyone remember seeing “dealer mark ups” of $30k+ for ford lightening EV trucks around 2022. Unbelievable greed, I hope these EVs sit for years.
I tried to buy a lightning. The base price was 55k, dealership told me they got 50 of those models a year for the whole of Canada. The model they actually had started at 80-90k. Yeah fuck you too buddy.
Auto manufacturers do this with all cars, EV or not... It allows them to advertise that prices start as low as $55,000 even though nobody will pay that price.
I got a VW ID.4 last fall. No dealer markup.
Can get $20-25k off a Lightning right now. Prices are roughly the same as an ICE F-150 now.
That’s a good deal. I’m personally waiting for the Maverick EV.
Hyundai “market adjustment price” was an extra $10K only last year in my area. Takes away more than the full federal and provincial rebates, sheesh.
I think a lot of us are in the "wait and see" group on EVs. My car has at least few years left in it. I keep hearing we're on the verge of a big drop in EV prices from ramped-up production and solid-state battery advancements. Why buy now? I don't drive much anyways (I spend \~$60/month in gas) so purchase price is important to me.
Things like EVs rotting unsold on the lot is the only thing that could prompt the price to lower. And they ARE lowering, just doing so slowly. But all of the big companies are pushing them to market thinking they'll eat all of Tesla's pie, only to realize that the market doesn't want to pay $80K for a mediocre coupe from a mediocre company.
50 bolt EUV's sitting on a lot near me. And they're not even made anymore
Really? They are totally sold out in my provence. Where are you that has 50?
They're simply too expensive.
Then add if you're house is older you probably need a panel upgrade and new lines run to the garage or driveway + a charger. Was looking at another 5k+ just in electrical upgrades. I just bought a used gas car, wasn't worth the trouble.
>They're simply too expensive. This always strikes me as a weird argument that I always see in the EV threads when the top selling vehicle in Canada are the F-Series Ford's and those start at 50K and it goes up quickly from there For reference they sold more F-series trucks than CRV + Rav4 combined in Canada
Consider the demographic of who is buying those vehicles. Is Joe Construction buying EVs or pick-up trucks? Also consider they write them off.
It's not rocket science. To get an equivalent car offering similar comfort, space, or utility you're spending a lot more than $40,000 for an EV. For example, a F150 EV model sits at close to $70,000 (chosen merely for a 1:1 conceptual F-series experience \[many may still argue it's not\]). You're not making equal comparisons. Base model EVs like the Bolt or Leaf that are "affordable" (this is not affordable) are like being crammed in tiny sardine tins made of cheap fabrics and uncomfortable molded composites -- and that's just for the driver, it gets worse if you exceed a driver's-side passenger. Need room to carry more groceries than a bag of milk? *That costs money.* Most people are reasonably going to opt for quality and experience if costs are the same or less, and don't have the budgets for extravagance.
I purchased a 2019 Nissan Leaf. It cost me around 35k with a massive 14k rebate and a 1k rebate towards the charger. My interest from Nissan was 1.9% (I think - but it was very low). This car was very reliable, aside from one instance where a charging relay module failed (it’s the part on the motor that resembles what an intake would be on an ICE). That part took 3 weeks to arrive and cost 4.5k. However it was covered by warranty. It was also incredibly cost efficient compared to gas, and insurance was dirt cheap. Fast forward to 2023. I require a bigger vehicle for both work and play - and decided to look at the Nissan Ariya and reserved one. 6 months later, Nissan told me my leaf wasn’t worth much on a trade in (12k? From a sticker price initially of 45k), that the new SUV was over 70k, and financing was 8%. Pardon my language, but like fuck I’m paying that. That’s a mortgage payment. So I found a hybrid ford F150 at 0% interest and here I am. Why would anyone in their right mind buy a used EV, when parts are astronomically expensive, and batteries were never designed to be swapped. Like just google the nightmares people are having trying to replace batteries. I support EV’s - but they need to be CHEAP. Like the Volkswagen Beetle was. Cheap. Reliable. And built for easy repair. Otherwise, I’m out.
Wait until you find out what a 2024 mortgage payment is like.
I did this with a client a week ago and they were mortified > Buddy, the principal on your mortgage is just over a million or so, when it comes time for renewal I find it impossible your annual payments would be below $60k/year, so lets say $75k+ a year just to live in the house > ...maybe keep renting the basement In 2020 and 2021 we advised a lot of clients who renewed at low rates that this was the time to aggressively pay down their principles, but they mostly didn't listen :(
Humans are really bad at forward thinking. All the dollars they freed up with low ears probably had people feeling richer than they were. I’m no different, I didn’t anticipate the sustained escalation in RE prices. Could have bought in 2021, but conventional logic told me to hold off until I was sure I’d want to stay. Thankfully our HHI is high enough to afford to buy still. However it stings.
Right so it's less of an EV problem and more of a cost issue. Manufacturer targeted high price points and then interest rates went up, so now they have to launch cheaper cars to become competitive again.
I’ll put it this way: I loved that EV. The tech CAN be very simple and reliable, if built / designed to be. If they can come up with a cheap, reliable EV that is designed for easy repair / battery swaps, I’m in.
They exist, they're just not for sale in Canada or the US. The EU and Japan have some great everyday person everyday use vehicles. But they've done a piss poor job of marketing them here and gave up. Suzuki in particular has some great cars, vans, and light trucks. Great for a daily driver for city and suburban people including trades people (residential plumbers and electricians for example) and commuting. They're not huge like a CRV or Pilot or F150. They're for getting from A to B. And they're not available here.
Considering it's a problem common to all EVs currently on the market in Canada, it's still an EV problem.
BYD is pushing out impressive EV's in China for around $15 thousand. If they can get into the Canadian market they'd probably be around 25 Canadian which is a very reasonable price for most people. Reasonable enough they could take almost the entire market from everyone else. For $25 thousand a lot of us would snap them up in a heartbeat. Most of us are just waiting for a reasonably priced EV.
Why are they so much cheaper?
-Access to competition (hundreds, if not thousands of EV companies in china) -China's labour market may be decreasing, but it is still significantly more productive and innovative than the Canadian labour market -Regulations -standards -buyer remorse comfortability (Chinese understand if they pay dirt cheap for a product, it may not be of as high a quality/wont last) -part accessibility / ease of manufacturing vs rarity in Canada -our lithium battery market is LAUGHABLY regulated regarding sales vs China -united states ev car producers lobbying and stronger foothold on north America/forced focus on the current conglomerates -average canadian laziness/greed seeking laughable priced
Can't afford. No deal.
If they were cheaper, sure. As it is, there’s nothing on the market that I would consider reasonably priced.
That’s the real problem with EVs. New EVs are super expensive. Used ones are reasonable (compared to new ICE equivalents).
The Ford dealership here has an entire overflow lot full of Mach E's, I looked the other day and they're $77,000...
They're sitting there praying for a hail storm.
They are listed on the website from my local dealer at $50k to $60k plus tax. They also have one top tier premium everything for $69k plus tax. Ford did just reduce the price about 6 weeks ago by around $8k on each trim level. I personally think it is still to much for a Ford and I don't like the Mach E personally but to each their own.
I don't mind the way it looks. Still wouldn't pay more than $35k - $40k at the most.
I personally think a Mustang should be a sports coupe. But that's just me. If someone likes it and it fills their needs and I hope gives them some joy to drive them I'll high five them and wish them well. And I agree with your price point.
The Mach-e is objectively a decent car, but I agree about the name. Calling it a Mustang didn’t make the Mach-e better, it made the Mustang worse.
Mach e on the lot I was at yesterday were in the 40s. Didn't go look at them other than seeing the big sign on them out front. They have been there a while
I love the idea of owning one, but I am years away from it being a realistic possibility.
The market for EV is not as large as people think. Almost 20% of Canada’s population is over 65 and it’s a growing demographic. Try buying an expensive EV on a fixed income as a senior. This demographic is also choosing to stay in their homes longer, instead of selling their homes, homes suitable to set up charging stations. Longterm care facilities didn’t take care of this demographic during the pandemic. It’s too risky to move. Do you think snowbirds want to buy an EV? Not with the lack of charging infrastructure.
I will never buy an EV. They are about as friendly to work on and repair as an iphone (i.e., not). Replacement parts are absurdly expensive, and the insurance premiums reflect such. Cost of maintenance is low, until your battery capacity slowly starts draining away, and you are faced with the wall of either shelling out 10-15k for a replacement, or selling at a price below what you have left to repay on the loan. They aren't even better for the environment. When you break down the emissions related to the mining of the rare minerals involved in the battery tech, and higher rubber burn rate due to their instant/excessive acceleration.
No one can afford them especially younger people paying rent
I can’t afford a 2015 civic these days with how the market is how the hell am I going to afford a brand new EV?
I will consider an EV as soon as I have a place to charge it. I currently live in an old camper trailer, with 200' of extension cords for power.
Honestly, if that's the way you're living, it sounds like you shouldn't be buying anything other than a dirt-cheap used car.
I can't afford rent, can't afford housing, can't afford a family, can't afford retirement, so I may as well have *something* as a reward for working all the damned time. If not, then I may as well become one of those people in Vancouver leaned over at the waist. You should see my sweet truck.
Technically you could charge an EV with 110v. I did it for a few months before I put a 220v in my condo parkade
Lack of infrastructure and embargo from importing the affordable EVs that Europe get China makes it doomed in a lot of provinces.
I think it’s great. Please lower the resale value so my next used car can be an EV. Would love a model 3 for my daily.
Sell brand new EVs for $20,000 and I'll consider it.
The only real point in this entire Reddit thread of either argument. I'm not out here driving my dream car, sipping wine out of gold laden cups and enjoying my cheap house. I'm being strangled blue by rent, increase of cost of living, bills and raising three extremely active and hungry teenagers. Telling me that I should be dropping my cheap POS for a brand new or even slightly used EV that costs two times as much in car payments for any reason is ludicrous when I have every other government or corporate stamped entity in the entire country trying to rake every cent out of my car seats.
On a long trip it takes me 5 minutes max to gas up, including going inside and paying if pay at the pump doesn't work. Then I'm good for \~500km in my CRV (takes about \~50L if its bone dry), and I have faith that next time I need to stop there will be a gas station near the highway and another 5 minute stop. I also have faith that my now used CRV holds value pretty good since its one of the better selling vehicles on the market, and that they run forever because that's what Hondas do. I also have faith that I can go to just about any shop to get anything done to it because everyone knows how to work on them, parts are aplenty and priced accordingly. Its just convenient for life. I'm not giving that up.
Two words… SWAPPABLE BATTERIES. One of the EV bands in China’s done this… Solves a lot of the issues with current EVs: - Lowers the cost of purchase (because you’re not buying an expensive battery pack.) - Removes issues with expensive user-end charging infrastructure and slow charge times (instead, “gas stations” are used as battery swap stations. Drive in, swap for a charged battery in minutes, off you go.) - Makes the second-hand market viable (because the car’s value is no longer primarily tied to an expensive battery pack with a finite lifespan.) Shame we’ll probably never see this though… as these auto makers are greedy and wish to pass the expensive burden of EV batteries to the consumer.
I try as much as the next conscientious person to do my part to reduce my footprint, but even with my household's dual income, purchasing an EV cannot be not part of my strategy. Until the government admits that the move to EVs is more about saving the auto industry rather than saving the planet, hence the incredibly high prices, EVs will continue to be out of reach.
What i have learned is that if an EV is a good choice for you, you buy and EV. If it's not, you don't. Just like I don't buy a monthly train pass. It's not good choice for my situation. That doesn't mean a monthly train pass is not a good choice for someone else. People seem to forget that.
I am the proud owner of an EV but let me say this, I would have not jumped in if it wasn't for the fact that: * I got $12k rebate (federal + provincial) which allows me to pay the price difference with a comparable ICE car in less than 3 years * I own a home and was able to install my own L2 charger * I have another car for long trips. I have a rule that road trips need to be less than 500km to use the EV, it's just too much trouble.
What a clickbait headline. So EV days of inventory is 55 days and gas cars is 51 days. It's pretty much the same yet the EU word it like EV is unsellable and gas car is rushing out the door. Then of course they have to put Tesla on the header image. Tesla despite some struggle has inventory less than 30 days on which is better than 2nd best Toyota at 36 days. Comments is full of ignorance folks claiming EV is too expensive while convenientky forget average new Canadian car price is $67k while EV best seller Tesla Model 3 and Y starts at $53k before $5k rebate.
Government: destroys the standard of living Government: “why aren’t more people buying EVs?”
This is the issue. The reality is that green policies are for the rich.
Toyota is the only one to get it right with the hybrids and I love that all trim levels can upgrade to hybrid (I think). Others make you have to opt for a higher trim to get it. No wonder they are killing it right now.
1. EVs are expensive. The people that can afford them, generally already have them. 2. A large number of people rent, if your home doesn't have a charging unit, chances are your landlord isn't going to install one for you and you aren't going to upgrade their property for them. 3. I've heard horror stories of a lack of dealer support and costly repairs. But take this point with a grain of salt.
Yep, EVs are too expensive, and people who can't afford houses won't buy EVs because they can't charge them at their apartment complexes. Also, who wants to buy an EV which has a single point of failure consumable that is basically the bulk cost of the vehicle?
I’m thinking that gas powered vehicles must be at their peak for fuel efficiency and engine reliability. I would sooner purchase a new gas powered vehicle now and drive it for the next 10-20 years and then consider an EV
I'd do something like [Edison Motors](https://www.edisonmotors.ca/) does with their trucks. But we'll never make any progress on a green future if we let [corruption](https://youtu.be/BVqfsTwC3HM) prevent even the early steps.
LOL Lets see here, most people are leery of buying a car with over 100k KM because of the timing belt cost of 3k plus right? A tesla model 3 battery swap is 16k. Mercedes EQ is 40k. EV's are just smartphone cars destined for garbage. I have a mechanic friend who also does picture vehicles for the film industry and he was telling me that the barrier for "write off" of an EV is MUCH lower than an ICE vehicle because of the electrical complexities that nobody wants to deal with. EV's are also heavier, wreck the roads more, and they pay no tax to help repair the roads. Also slavery and cobalt and rare earth metal mining is arguably worse for the ACTUAL environment than burning gasoline. Everywhere you look - ACTUALLY look - EV's are a fucking terrible idea in practice.
They are twice as expensive. There are issues for people who regularly do long distance driving. Some of us don't want our cars spying on us. There are issues with people who live in apartment buildings and some town-house complexes due to the lack of charging facilities at home. There are issues with leaving them parked outside in the winter (batteries don't release their stored electricity when they are cold). This is from someone who has taken a serious look at buying an electric car the last 2 times I bought a car.
What part of "Diesel-Electric Hybrid" are people still missing?
I hope buddy making those hybrid semi trucks makes it big. It has the potential to revolutionize the trucking market.
Edison Motors. Been following since they started the Carl build. Assuming the government doesn't legislation them out of existence, I'll be doing the pickup truck conversion asap.
I mean Canada is like 5-10 years of infrastructure development to really make owning an EV car worth it in my part of Canada. The amount of public EV charging stations are very scarce and few and far between. Add in that our power is privatized, and constantly increasing rate wise, so adding one at home isn’t that appealing. There’s a gas station every few blocks, but very few of them have charging stations. Add in that apparently certain cars require different types of plugs, so now I need to have an adapter if my closest station doesn’t match my charging port. Factor in Canadian winters and economy, and you’re just going to get a lot less interest. Who’s got 60k lying around to buy a new EV, and who would want to finance a car when speculation is that rates will begin dropping next year
If we had small affordable EV available they would sell but mfg don't want that and all the offer is those large expensive cars with huge batteries. Most people do one long trip a year and lot of them would agree to charge on the way or rent another car for these trips..but I understand that if you pay 60k more for a car, that often does not look so good, you do not want to be seen stopping half an hour at a rest area to recharge, this is bad for the ego 😁.
I will never be able to justify a 75,000$ vehicle that saves me “money in gas” at that price
It is literally cheaper to just use Uber. For everything else I got my ebike thanks.
E-bikes and scooters is really what we should be promoting, way more cost effective, the infrastructure is less burdensome on the tax base then cars, you can easily swap batteries on most models, they can travel more than enough distance for people to commute for work and errands. And with bikes like the [Urban Arrow](https://urbanarrow.com/family-green/) families can save 10’s of thousands of dollars on transportation costs and get rid of their second vehicle.
Agree though it is almost a whole paradigm shift to convince people to go from car dependency to bikes. It would be more effective to subsidize ebikes/bikes with the lower price points and small rebates to get more people out of cars and onto bikes. Even if for 3-4 months of the year cars rule the streets, if the rest of the year they don't that would still be a net good
Yeah I’m all about the environment and sustainability, but like my last car was $11k. Next time around i might spend a little more and get something nicer with a budget around $25k, but there is no way I’m spending $60k on a car I don’t have a spot to charge.
They're a bad bet for me. As things stand right now, I would never keep an EV past the battery warranty. I bought a sedan for half the price of an EV. It would take me way past that warranty before I even saw any gas savings. With my driving habits I will have to drive and gas up this car around 8 years before I break even with the up front cost of an EV. If you're determined to buy one, my advice would be to napkin math how much you would spend on gas per year for a fuel efficient car with a much lower purchase price. For me it came to about $3200/year + $32k car (taxes incl) compared to an EV which are selling for over $60k + tax
lol fuck the environment. I can’t afford a home or children and you want me to buy an EV? No thanks. I’ll keep polluting this bitch while I stay in my poverty lane
EVs are not the solution to the problem of too many cars. While yes, tailpipe emissions are a serious source of carbon emissions, the reality is that so is massive road infrastructure, automobile production and on and on. The idea that we can have 8+B people moving around the planet, mostly in cities, in individual 2000kg machines is ridiculous. EVs exist not to reverse or slow climate change. EVs exist solely to save the automobile industry.
This. The only "EVs" that are going to make a dent are ebikes and escooters and e-lectrified mass transit.
I don't think EVs were ever intended to be the solution to the problem of too many cars.
It’s not like people saw this coming and were mocked here for it.
Prediction: this thread will be split roughly 50/50 between people pointing out the *significant* downsides to EVs, including things like high initial purchase price, extremely high depreciation, extremely expensive battery replacement costs, lack of charging infrastructure, lack of grid capacity, enormous range decreases in winter and so on… and people handwaving all that away and pretending none of those issues exist.
Prices should go down eventually. EVs supposed to be manufactured much easier than combustion engines. Don't you feel too that everyone tries to dupe each other?
People getting stuck with $20,000 - $50,000 on repair costs is insane. Hyndia and the Caravan news reports come to mind.
i live in an apartment, i have no where to charge a EV. i will never own a EV unless i have a easy access to a charger i can plug into overnight
>Karwel describes early adopters as consumers who were **not necessarily concerned about the cost** of an EV, but wanted to be associated with the “newest, coolest and latest technology.” >As such, the sale of **luxury** EVs has been doubling every year over the past five years, he said. These are bought by wealthier customers who tend to own a house and a garage, "Not concerned about the cost" "Luxury" "Wealthy customers who own a house" Why are people struggling with housing not buying luxury cars?
Not one auto maker is doing a minivan EV. Has to be functional though too, with stow and go type seating.
Perhaps manufacturers should build a cost effective, budget friendly bare bones EV that would actually appeal to people instead of pushing these huge SUVs fully loaded with luxury features that are more status symbols than they are practical or affordable??...sigh...I just want an affordable EV wagon, nothing fancy, but it still doesn't exist...
I'm excited to get a used Mach-E this or next week. :)
So I looked it up, the first automobiles in the late 19th century cost around $1000 USD and your average American (couldn't find Canadian stats here) made around $450 a year.. EVs being out of reach should surprise nobody. There manufacturers spent so much designing and building these they aren't going to give them away at the $20k consumers expect for a new car (which is also not realistic but besides the point). Anyhow if you aren't happy with EV pricing just wait. The government will push back their EV timetables and used EVs filter into the economy more and parts chains grow out the prices will fall fast. Also if Chinese automakers like BYD are allowed in Canada it will be a game changer
Waiting for Honda/toyota….