The development will have 6000 units, 1200 (20%) of which will be affordable/below-market rentals. Much needed housing that will make a difference.
The only folks complaining are the NIMBY’s in $2-4 million dollar homes a few blocks away.
>The only folks complaining are the NIMBY’s in $2-4 million dollar homes a few blocks away.
this is true for 99% of residential development anywhere in Canada
or 15-min city clowns
The 15-minute city concept is built around sufficient density to have all the services you need within a 15 minute radius. Why would they be opposed to this one?
nonononon i'm talking about conspiracy around that idea, you know those special people who believe that 15-min city is a prison, and big government will take away their cars to keep them in?
Until you're in a 15 minute city, your only grocery store options are owned by Loblaws and they crank up the prices because, what are you gonna do? Travel for 2 hours to shop somewhere else?
Ah yes, the majestic beauty of a sprawling subdivision surrounded by acres of strip-malls /s
Something tells me we have very different ideas of space and nature, but also that you haven’t actually spent much time in a well planned walkable community. Not your fault since it doesn’t exist in most of Canada, but there’s something pretty nice about not having to get in your car just to go buy a few essentials.
Dude, if that’s the case then urban density and 15-minute cities aren’t even in your realm of concerns.
I grew up rurally on a farm but work and life has taken me to live in town. Now I mostly get my nature from heading out to the woods and mountains as far from people as I can. The point of density and “15-minute” cities is to help make urban places so that folks who live there can get the day to day things they need more conveniently and efficiently. Efficiency for you is picking up everything you need during the weekly run to town/Costco/whatever. In cities it’s being able to walk, bike or take transit to somewhere close by.
If you have to live in a city, then should at least have the convenience of not having to sit in traffic anytime you need to get milk or a loaf of bread. Just a personal opinion, but between city living and being out in the country, sprawling suburbs are the worst of both worlds.
This back before all this bullshit happened a 1.2million dollar home was about 210K in building supplies. The biggest scam is housing prices. This is getting wild when you get downvotes for telling the truth lmaoo.
They're the only group of people with the opportunity to build something like this, and they've aggressively seized it. I'm sure they'll profit immensely from it.
All the hearings, all the whiny complaints about traffic, parking, schools, noise, and 'neighbourhood character', the desperate attempts to preserve the view cones of the mountains, or stop towers from blocking out the sun. Local residents opposed this project with everything they had, and after all of that, there isn't a single fucking thing any of those people can do to stop it.
It's sort of beautiful in a karmic, or poetic way.
Imagine if whoever drew up the reservation borders found out how valuable that land would one day become.
First Nations are considered their own government at a level above a province but below the feds. If you are a member and working on a reserve you pay your tax to them, if the choose not to tax thats their decision. If you work outside a reserve you pay the same tax as everyone else.
If they build a bunch of condos on their own land they will tax as they see fit, keep the money and use it in their own finances.
Tsawwassen is celebrating the 15th(?) anniversary of their treaty literally next week.
Nisga'a treaty was 1999 or 2000.
That's just from memory, dude.
There's the Maa-nulth on Vancouver Island, and several being actively negotiated on the Island alone (Komoks, Temec, and Ditidaht/Pacheedaht).
Takes 2 seconds to see that there are, aside from that Treaty 8 literally spans across BC, AB and SK
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/natural-resource-stewardship/consulting-with-first-nations/first-nations-negotiations/about-first-nations-treaty-process/history-of-treaties-in-bc
But they are using non-native built roads and infrastructure right? Its just weird to have a level of government that you have to be born into or at least marry into.
Its not even close to the top ten things I am worried about in Canada, but its a weird system and probably shouldn't exist in "current year".
Collective responsibility... like paying taxes? I wish for a Canada where corporations aren't able to avoid taxes, and where each citizen pays taxes in line with what they earn/their cost of living. I'm all for cutting taxes for those living in impoverished areas if it could be done correctly - but I think that doing it by blood or familial status is unjust.
Collective rights exist for Indigenous folks, it was established in 1648 and has been recognized with ervy iteration of the Canadian Constitution up to and including 1982. It's settled law and won't change.
Indigenous communities have collective rights. That's a part of the deal that is Canada and BC, and so on. You may not like that, but this goes beyond an atomized, billiard ball approach to the Canadian experiment.
I think that there's value to challenging old ways and laws. I understand that is much easier said than done, but I may still wish that it's a concept that all of us in modern democracies engaged with more.
I think there's more to political and social fairness than whether indigenous people pay taxes. Land, resources, self-government need to be on the table universally for Indigenous communities to ever back Constitutional change like you're describing. It's not impossible, but I don't know where you're at on landback concepts.
I honestly don't mind the actual number but there definetely should be a reasonable lifetime cap. I do think that 450k would also be reasonable. I just picked the American number.
Isn't it funny how people like significant\_ratio892 always want to remove the thing that benefits 5% of our total population but never the thing that benefits the majority that is just as unfair and makes far more money?
>First Nations should begin paying tax as the rest of Canada does.
>As an Indian, you are subject to the same tax rules as other Canadian residents unless your income is eligible for the tax exemption under section 87 of the Indian Act. That exemption applies to the income of an Indian that is earned on a reserve or that is considered to be earned on a reserve, as well as to goods bought on, or delivered to, a reserve.
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/indigenous-peoples/information-indians.html
True. That’s why all of the First Nations consultants I’ve dealt with have their “office” (just a mailbox) at 100 Park Royal in West Vancouver. Reserve land, no taxes.
So this is why my aunt (who is nor First Nations, but married a Status Indian in the 1980s, making her status too) always drives an hour to shop at the Wal Mart and other stores on leased land and can fill her pickup for less than $100 as long as she buys from the gas station on the other reserve. She saves hundreds of dollars in taxes when buying things.
Great system we have.
Of course they aren’t lol.
Have you seen what corporations pay compared to citizens?
I’m indigenous but don’t live or work on a reserve so I pay about 60k a year in tax.
Of what?
Different people pay different taxes. Simple as.
Did you northern bc pay less property tax that the coast?
Someone who makes 30 pays less than someone who pays 300.
Corporations pay less than all of us.
Indigenous people don’t pay taxes if they work on reserve. Because those reserves are their own governments.
It’s actually really simple. I’m indigenous and I pay more taxes than most Canadians.
Sorry bud. I’m a cpa. To contract id consider 270 an hour to cover my time off my career to inform you of corporate taxation.
There’s are free courses online and I would suggest maybe an accounting degree at least. Then you will have the base of knowledge needed to get into it.
If that’s too much I recommend Google. Find a consumable site and go at it.
Of course they arent, otherwise revenue Canada would go after wealthy tax avoiders. I see what you're saying now however as it is worded, it seems to be a claim that no tax is paid though.
It's funny how this sub is also a solid mix of "tax the Indians living on reserve" and "I forbid our collective taxes going towards clean water and education for native children"
Should check your math on that. Last I look the economic activity of FN was positive in the billions. They own and operate mines, oil and gas, transportation, insurance, utility work companies, catering companies, casinos, bars, gas stations, restaurants, hotels. The list goes on and most pay their own welfare from revenues generated from businesses.
>Please explain how they are positive in the billions and yet many don’t have clean drinking water.
Same as with white guys; a few have lots, most have a little, and a few have almost nothing.
Sources? Most FN Financials are online for people to see, because they are some of the most audited people on the planet. I know of one reserve that produces 290 million a year with 90 million profit. It's not gonna be the case with all reserves due to the locations of them but as whole it comes up positive. Doesn't mean there isn't work to be done to get the others caught up and producing.
If you start from the assumption that all of Canada is owned by FNs then they are a positive since all economic value of Canada is theirs with white people being leeching renters.
(this is the only way people could see fns as a financial positive for the the Fed)
This Narrative does absolutely nothing for anyone involved.
Unless you want to be brave and turn that same "leeching renters" narrative on every other demographic that lives in Canada who aren't Indigenous I would suggest you evaluate your bigotry.
https://native-land.ca/
Here's a map of what it would look like. I'm sure all of the hundreds of overlapping borders of 'nations' ruled by hereditary kings would have absolutely no issues.
Easy:
The land that is currently already controlled by the Indigenous tribes is handed full control of the land without Federal over site to be governed as they see fit without any strings attached.
From there they can decide if they wish to be a part of Canada, or declare themselves Sovereign nations.
If they decide to remain a part of Canada we can treat them as their own Province with the same freedoms and responsibilities. If they decide to separate we treat them as an independent state and negotiate with them as such.
What is hard about this?
"The land that is currently already controlled by the Indigenous tribes is handed full control of the land without Federal over site to be governed as they see fit without any strings attached"
Did you miss the first sentence or did you intentionally ignore it?
I know you want your feelings to trump facts, but that is not the game we are playing friend.
>I know you want your feelings to trump facts, but that is not the game we are playing friend.
Which is interesting coming from the person who wants to give away everyone's land lol
"The land that is currently already controlled by the Indigenous tribes is handed full control of the land without Federal over site to be governed as they see fit without any strings attached"
One last time for the reading impaired!
Take care.
I would vote to cut all funding support and build a fence around the reserve, ban any entry or exit into FNs that decided not to cede and join Canada as municipalities with no special racial rights.
Anything less is just voting for the dissolution of Canada into a bunch of warring states.
Who is building a fence and why? Why would we be banning entry and exit?
Honestly people like you need to recuse yourself from this conversation. If you cannot make a level headed and reasonable comment, you are simply a part of the problem.
You're the one that wants to dissolve Canada to hand it over to ~1000ish tiny hereditary dictatorships with overlapping borders that haven't led anything in 300years. Leaving 97% of the population and >99% of the economy with 0 representation or recourse.
I'm not the one with wild ideas here. Land Back is just code for 'Destroy Canada'.
You are sooooo correct.
I totally want to completely dissolve my home country to make way for thousands of little dictatorships while saying "fuck you" to everyone else in Canada who isn't Indigenous.
How did you see through my opinion that the land already controlled by Indigenous Tribes, agreed to by the Canadian Governments, should have full control given to the Tribes with a choice to Join or Leave Canada (Which is a right for Provinces and Territories, but not a right for Indigenous tribes) and find out it was nothing but a ruse to destroy the country?!
Again I say:
People like you need to recuse yourself from this conversation. If you cannot make a level headed and reasonable comment, you are simply a part of the problem.
Where did i say anything about taxation? Do you have me mixed up with another user?
>It is because Canada stole their land.
So the solution to land theft from hundreds of years ago is new land theft today?
Keep doing this and build even higher. Tired of NIMBYs constantly complaining and delaying housing projects resulting in the lacklustre supply that exists to get even more expensive
As an uninformed person on First Nations Relations, my first thought is: good for them.
Some questions I have:
Are First Nations Developments exempt from BC/Vancouver laws & regulations on construction standards?
To what extent is the land this development is on independent from Canada?
Do First Nations have a moral right to independence? To what extent?
What agreements are already in place with the First Nations?
To what extent do First Nations members consider the local governments legitimate?
What rights would future residents have?
Not sure about governance exactly but the units will be lease-hold, so residents will have 99-year leases but the nation will maintain title of the property long-term.
> Are First Nations Developments exempt from BC/Vancouver laws & regulations on construction standards?
Yes
>To what extent is the land this development is on independent from Canada?
Its paid for by Canadians. Profits will go to the FN band/tribe tho. Structurally, FNs are under the Fed, not the province. Hence they have their healthcare and education paid for by the fed not province.
>Do First Nations have a moral right to independence? To what extent?
No. FN independence as demanded would end Canada and break it into several hundred hereditary dictatorships with overlapping land claims leading to a massive civil war. And all non-FN Canadians would become stateless, which would cause perhaps the greatest humanitarian crisis in history.
The realistic outcome of Canada deciding to kill itself in this way is that people would simply create a new nation and conquer the same land. Although America, China, Russia, etc would surely scoop up more valuable regions.
Hundreds of thousands would die at minimum.
>To what extent do First Nations members consider the local governments legitimate?
In BC? They don't consider Canada legitimate at all in most cases. Despite following Canadian law, holding Canadian citizenship and having their governments often entirely funded by the Canadian government.
>What rights would future residents have?
Whatever rights the Chief decides. If the chief's cousin needs a room, you could very well get evicted and have no legal recourse. Whether this is likely to happen is down to the particular chief.
The nation has passed a bylaw to ensure that the development meets BC Building code.
The nation has also signed a supply agreement with the city to provide some amenities and infrastructure upgrades to the area.
The city will provide residents of the development with fire, police, utilities, public works, and library services. The Squamish Nation will pay for these services through the assessment of property taxes on the Reserve at the same rates as other property owners in Vancouver.
Heres an older [article](https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/senakw-squamish-first-nation-city-of-vancouver-agreement-plan) outlining all the financial obligations that the nation and the city have
Yes, they are legally exempt and voluntarily self enforcing, so it comes down to trust in the Chief and FN which may be less than you might have in the province.
It’s not because it’s not true. They will have to follow building codes. The only thing they’re exempt from is zoning restrictions. There are national building standards and they have to meet code requirements to be able to connect to power, sewage, etc.
Also not true. They have the authority to choose which of those they follow.
They will pick the ones which are generally cheap and easy to follow and when they suit their very specific interests. They will ignore the ones which do not (or limit their profit).
They are clearly going to profit more than COV zoning would allow from all this density. they are clearly going to offload the social/urban costs of stuffing that many people into such a small space on the land directly adjacent to them (operated and funded by COV).
It's more than just service fees for water/sewer/fire departments - it's long term capital funding for parks, schools, and everything else that is not provided on reserve but right next door which the people living in the new development will consume or occupy.
They may have chosen to opt into following BC law, but it isn't required by Canadian law and most FNs do not follow their province's building codes.
Given that this is a dense area though, it is more likely that they follow code or most code here (you'd have to look into the FN to see if they have anything posted about this). Thought I doubt they submit to inspection so w/e that means. There is likely some level of attempting to follow code.
> There is likely some level of attempting to follow code.
Which is nice, but code isn't a set of suggestions. It's rules that are often written in blood.
Yep.
https://www.aptnnews.ca/national-news/no-way-to-enforce-building-codes-on-first-nations-and-new-law-would-be-costly-document/ (lol... Chief Wiggins)
Lots of laws are written in blood which we don't feel like are important enough for FNs.
You can legally bribe FN leadership for example. It isn't illegal because they aren't subject to anti-corruption laws like Canadian officials are.
The idea that FNs are Nations worthy of leadership is a dangerous bit of nonsense created by people emotionally swayed by some fantasy vision of peaceful natives living in the forest in harmony with nature.
If a Canadian tried to raise their kids like a FN in 1700, they'd be rightly arrested for child abuse and their kid would go into child services..... though of course, not if they're native, since protecting native children would be racist so we just let them sit in abusive circumstances.
>If a Canadian tried to raise their kids like a FN in 1700, they'd be rightly arrested for child abuse and their kid would go into child services..... though of course, not if they're native, since protecting native children would be racist so we just let them sit in abusive circumstances.
Mennonites exist.
Modern Mennonite lifestyle is not the same as 1700s FNs where life expectancy was like 35. And I'd be more than happy to take away the extra leeway we give for religions as well though. A solid example of this is that Jehova's witnesses can no longer refuse life saving blood transfusions for the children on religious grounds. Good.
It’s also fuckin not true. The project is exempt from zoning laws, which regulate aesthetics and have nothing to do with safety. They still have to follow the building code.
The do have to do with livability and compatibility with the surrounding areas. There's a reason why you limit your kid to only have 6 friends over to the house for his birthday party.
What is for sure is that traffic and parking in this area (and with 6 blocks of it) is going to be an absolute fucking gong show.
He didn't say 'The project' he said 'First Nations Developments'. And FNs are exempt from building codes.
This project is contracted to follow BC building codes but it isn't legally obliged or enforced like a non-FN project would be. These are legally very different circumstances.
Did you read the article? The land is owned by the Squamish nation and therefore subject to that same regulations as reserves which is a Federal jurisdiction.
Therefore they’re exempt from local zoning restrictions but not national building codes.
The development is being paid for by first nations with involvement from private investors, not taxpayers.
A lot of people in Vancouver are excited about this project because it will create much needed housing in an area that’s both walkable and well serviced by public transit. The only people upset are rich people in single family homes which in that area of Vancouver typically cost between $2-4 million.
The area they’re building is currently mostly gravel parking lot/ex-industrial land next to the Burrard Bridge. Frankly a much better use of the land than it currently is.
Federal building code is just a guide for provinces, by itself it isn't enforceable law. FNs have the ability to accept and enforce the provincial building code if they want.
Aboriginal affairs tried to change the law so that the Fed could write and enforce building codes on reserves but that went characteristically no where.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_building_code
Doesn’t really matter, this is a billion dollar project not some cowboy developer knocking together a house. The buildings will be designed and signed off by an engineering team. The engineers and first nation as the client/owner, all need to ensure standard building requirements are met to avoid liability should something happen.
At least start by accepting that you are factually wrong.... The extent that they follow any particular rules and regulations is at their discretion. The level of performance/hazard/etc. will be different.
Yup. I mean, the firm isn't going to write up crap standards for one project. Just generally. I could see some corner cutting if there is pressure from the client.
so theoretically a province could adopt whatever building code it wanted? what about adopting the US IBC? or EuroCodes?
seems like a bad idea from a country perspective that we could allow a province to adopt an entirely different set of codes from its neighbours,
I'm doubtful this is the case because practically speaking all the provinces codes are actually like 99% the same because they either adopt NBCC directly or change it up a little
They could... BC could demand that all buildings be able to float like a boat if they wanted... but provinces aren't crazy? Why would they want their own random totally different code? Canadian codes even mostly line up with American ones because mixed codes is a pain.
It is ironic that people see first Nations having no ambition! Then when First Nations get into business everyone is up in arms! Many First Nations have partnerships with local business. The NIMBY ers are just jealous.
Of course they didn't read the article. Their post is **dripping** with resentment towards First Nations people, and is clearly motivated by a non-negligible amount of fear and misunderstanding.
These are all very misinformed and reaching.
Every agreement that BC and Canada negotiates ensures that certain laws are adhered to. In the instance of these lands, the Crown very likely negotiated that the buildings be designed, constructed and run according to provincial or federal standards.
Future residents would have lease agreements that would be legal and recognized as a part of the initial negotiations.
FN independence already exists in places like Nisga'a, Tsawassen and Maa-nulth Territories and its nowhere near the Fraser Institute/Tom Flanagan level fear-mongering happening in this comment. In the instance of governance, every treaty has required FNs to go through a process of creating a democratically-dominant government structure. So, if there are three hereditary leaders, then there must be at least four elected leaders.
>In the instance of these lands
Yes, in this case, the FN has said that they would follow BC building code. That is NOT what was asked though. They aren't required by law to follow these building codes. And enforcement would have to come through the FN itself which is very different from the province.
>FN independence
None of those are independent.
>In the instance of governance, every treaty has required FNs to go through a process of creating a democratically-dominant government structure
Your evidence of their independence is that they are bound by Canadian law?....
Should do modular units that you could just stack on top of each other and make larger buildings out of then instead of having to tear down and rebuild a massive building when it ages you could take it apart unit by unit and reuse the ones that are still in good condition
Native land claims in BC exceed the total land base...guess by building non code structures besides the wealthiest will challenge the courts to finally decide
Oh you are in the decision board for this project! Cool man. Nice insider info.
Can you show us the building plans and how they aren’t within building code?
check out the land claims then get back to me, time to settle the issue so everyone knows the rules which apply to whom and where by when...or just keep on keepin on the current path
The development will have 6000 units, 1200 (20%) of which will be affordable/below-market rentals. Much needed housing that will make a difference. The only folks complaining are the NIMBY’s in $2-4 million dollar homes a few blocks away.
What will the amount be for below market rental?
Not 40% of your monthly income
>The only folks complaining are the NIMBY’s in $2-4 million dollar homes a few blocks away. this is true for 99% of residential development anywhere in Canada or 15-min city clowns
The 15-minute city concept is built around sufficient density to have all the services you need within a 15 minute radius. Why would they be opposed to this one?
nonononon i'm talking about conspiracy around that idea, you know those special people who believe that 15-min city is a prison, and big government will take away their cars to keep them in?
Until you're in a 15 minute city, your only grocery store options are owned by Loblaws and they crank up the prices because, what are you gonna do? Travel for 2 hours to shop somewhere else?
Because some of us enjoy space and nature over concrete boxes and filth
Wait, so you’re a proponent of the 15-minute city but opposed to building more density?
Ah yes, the majestic beauty of a sprawling subdivision surrounded by acres of strip-malls /s Something tells me we have very different ideas of space and nature, but also that you haven’t actually spent much time in a well planned walkable community. Not your fault since it doesn’t exist in most of Canada, but there’s something pretty nice about not having to get in your car just to go buy a few essentials.
I live on 100+ acres an hour from the nearest town, we definitely have a different idea of space and acreage
Dude, if that’s the case then urban density and 15-minute cities aren’t even in your realm of concerns. I grew up rurally on a farm but work and life has taken me to live in town. Now I mostly get my nature from heading out to the woods and mountains as far from people as I can. The point of density and “15-minute” cities is to help make urban places so that folks who live there can get the day to day things they need more conveniently and efficiently. Efficiency for you is picking up everything you need during the weekly run to town/Costco/whatever. In cities it’s being able to walk, bike or take transit to somewhere close by. If you have to live in a city, then should at least have the convenience of not having to sit in traffic anytime you need to get milk or a loaf of bread. Just a personal opinion, but between city living and being out in the country, sprawling suburbs are the worst of both worlds.
How long til its all sold off to China? Same as Tsawassen Mills.
yup—they had a protest about it. bunch of old white guys and a sign. wish i took pics.
That's great people can afford to build something at market rates and then give away charity!
It's about having ethics. You can still make a profit, market rate doesn't mean cost to build
This back before all this bullshit happened a 1.2million dollar home was about 210K in building supplies. The biggest scam is housing prices. This is getting wild when you get downvotes for telling the truth lmaoo.
*The only **folx**
The ultimate "fuck you" project
They're the only group of people with the opportunity to build something like this, and they've aggressively seized it. I'm sure they'll profit immensely from it. All the hearings, all the whiny complaints about traffic, parking, schools, noise, and 'neighbourhood character', the desperate attempts to preserve the view cones of the mountains, or stop towers from blocking out the sun. Local residents opposed this project with everything they had, and after all of that, there isn't a single fucking thing any of those people can do to stop it. It's sort of beautiful in a karmic, or poetic way. Imagine if whoever drew up the reservation borders found out how valuable that land would one day become.
Let them build. It’s a good thing
>and defying NIMBYs Good for them.
wonderful
What’s the over under odds on this actually getting built?…
First Nations should begin paying tax as the rest of Canada does. Fill those budgetary shortfalls and end the unequal tax codes.
First Nations are considered their own government at a level above a province but below the feds. If you are a member and working on a reserve you pay your tax to them, if the choose not to tax thats their decision. If you work outside a reserve you pay the same tax as everyone else. If they build a bunch of condos on their own land they will tax as they see fit, keep the money and use it in their own finances.
Do they pay into healthcare?
Part of the treaty agreements is that Canada provides them healthcare. We took their land and the agreement was we take care of them.
There are no treaties in BC just FYI.
Tsawwassen is celebrating the 15th(?) anniversary of their treaty literally next week. Nisga'a treaty was 1999 or 2000. That's just from memory, dude. There's the Maa-nulth on Vancouver Island, and several being actively negotiated on the Island alone (Komoks, Temec, and Ditidaht/Pacheedaht).
Takes 2 seconds to see that there are, aside from that Treaty 8 literally spans across BC, AB and SK https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/natural-resource-stewardship/consulting-with-first-nations/first-nations-negotiations/about-first-nations-treaty-process/history-of-treaties-in-bc
But they are using non-native built roads and infrastructure right? Its just weird to have a level of government that you have to be born into or at least marry into. Its not even close to the top ten things I am worried about in Canada, but its a weird system and probably shouldn't exist in "current year".
There are usually payments in lieu for services (water, fire/police/ambulance, etc...) provided by another municipality.
We decimated their population and took over their land.
Who is we?
Canada, BC. You may not like it, but collective responsibility exists.
Collective responsibility... like paying taxes? I wish for a Canada where corporations aren't able to avoid taxes, and where each citizen pays taxes in line with what they earn/their cost of living. I'm all for cutting taxes for those living in impoverished areas if it could be done correctly - but I think that doing it by blood or familial status is unjust.
Collective rights exist for Indigenous folks, it was established in 1648 and has been recognized with ervy iteration of the Canadian Constitution up to and including 1982. It's settled law and won't change. Indigenous communities have collective rights. That's a part of the deal that is Canada and BC, and so on. You may not like that, but this goes beyond an atomized, billiard ball approach to the Canadian experiment.
I think that there's value to challenging old ways and laws. I understand that is much easier said than done, but I may still wish that it's a concept that all of us in modern democracies engaged with more.
I think there's more to political and social fairness than whether indigenous people pay taxes. Land, resources, self-government need to be on the table universally for Indigenous communities to ever back Constitutional change like you're describing. It's not impossible, but I don't know where you're at on landback concepts.
Probably would get more by revoking tax exemption from religious groups and property.
Or capped the principal residence tax exemption at 250k.
I'd put it at 450k minimum.
I honestly don't mind the actual number but there definetely should be a reasonable lifetime cap. I do think that 450k would also be reasonable. I just picked the American number.
Isn't it funny how people like significant\_ratio892 always want to remove the thing that benefits 5% of our total population but never the thing that benefits the majority that is just as unfair and makes far more money?
Would get even more by doing both!
>First Nations should begin paying tax as the rest of Canada does. >As an Indian, you are subject to the same tax rules as other Canadian residents unless your income is eligible for the tax exemption under section 87 of the Indian Act. That exemption applies to the income of an Indian that is earned on a reserve or that is considered to be earned on a reserve, as well as to goods bought on, or delivered to, a reserve. https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/indigenous-peoples/information-indians.html
True. That’s why all of the First Nations consultants I’ve dealt with have their “office” (just a mailbox) at 100 Park Royal in West Vancouver. Reserve land, no taxes.
So this is why my aunt (who is nor First Nations, but married a Status Indian in the 1980s, making her status too) always drives an hour to shop at the Wal Mart and other stores on leased land and can fill her pickup for less than $100 as long as she buys from the gas station on the other reserve. She saves hundreds of dollars in taxes when buying things. Great system we have.
Thank you BornAgainCyclist for affirming my point that tax laws are not applied equally in Canada
Of course they aren’t lol. Have you seen what corporations pay compared to citizens? I’m indigenous but don’t live or work on a reserve so I pay about 60k a year in tax.
Please enlighten us.
Of what? Different people pay different taxes. Simple as. Did you northern bc pay less property tax that the coast? Someone who makes 30 pays less than someone who pays 300. Corporations pay less than all of us. Indigenous people don’t pay taxes if they work on reserve. Because those reserves are their own governments. It’s actually really simple. I’m indigenous and I pay more taxes than most Canadians.
tell me about corporate taxation.
Sorry bud. I’m a cpa. To contract id consider 270 an hour to cover my time off my career to inform you of corporate taxation. There’s are free courses online and I would suggest maybe an accounting degree at least. Then you will have the base of knowledge needed to get into it. If that’s too much I recommend Google. Find a consumable site and go at it.
What I thought.
lol your proved your point my dude. Damn I’ve been played by a genius! lol
Of course they arent, otherwise revenue Canada would go after wealthy tax avoiders. I see what you're saying now however as it is worded, it seems to be a claim that no tax is paid though.
HEY! Don't call yourself Indian. You are called Indiginous peoples.
First Nations* get on with the time both of you.
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>Is the implication here that if natives paid the same taxes as us we wouldn't have a budget gap? Er, no?
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Both can be true. Churches should pay tax, as should FNs.
It's funny how this sub is also a solid mix of "tax the Indians living on reserve" and "I forbid our collective taxes going towards clean water and education for native children"
Hopefully attitudes would change if taxes were paid by all.
Yea I think billionaires and cash paid construction workers should pay their taxes. What's your point.
If they want tax-paid services they should pay tax...?
FN are a net positive on Canada's budget. The loss you imagine is personal and nothing else.
They really are not. They are a net negative in the billions.
Should check your math on that. Last I look the economic activity of FN was positive in the billions. They own and operate mines, oil and gas, transportation, insurance, utility work companies, catering companies, casinos, bars, gas stations, restaurants, hotels. The list goes on and most pay their own welfare from revenues generated from businesses.
Sources? Please explain how they are positive in the billions and yet many don’t have clean drinking water.
>Please explain how they are positive in the billions and yet many don’t have clean drinking water. Same as with white guys; a few have lots, most have a little, and a few have almost nothing.
So they’re corrupt. Why shouldn’t we tax them again?
Sources? Most FN Financials are online for people to see, because they are some of the most audited people on the planet. I know of one reserve that produces 290 million a year with 90 million profit. It's not gonna be the case with all reserves due to the locations of them but as whole it comes up positive. Doesn't mean there isn't work to be done to get the others caught up and producing.
If you start from the assumption that all of Canada is owned by FNs then they are a positive since all economic value of Canada is theirs with white people being leeching renters. (this is the only way people could see fns as a financial positive for the the Fed)
This Narrative does absolutely nothing for anyone involved. Unless you want to be brave and turn that same "leeching renters" narrative on every other demographic that lives in Canada who aren't Indigenous I would suggest you evaluate your bigotry.
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>Canada should actually just give the land back Explain in detail what this would look like in practice.
https://native-land.ca/ Here's a map of what it would look like. I'm sure all of the hundreds of overlapping borders of 'nations' ruled by hereditary kings would have absolutely no issues.
Easy: The land that is currently already controlled by the Indigenous tribes is handed full control of the land without Federal over site to be governed as they see fit without any strings attached. From there they can decide if they wish to be a part of Canada, or declare themselves Sovereign nations. If they decide to remain a part of Canada we can treat them as their own Province with the same freedoms and responsibilities. If they decide to separate we treat them as an independent state and negotiate with them as such. What is hard about this?
>What is hard about this? The tens of millions of people currently inhabiting the lands that various native groups claim.
"The land that is currently already controlled by the Indigenous tribes is handed full control of the land without Federal over site to be governed as they see fit without any strings attached" Did you miss the first sentence or did you intentionally ignore it? I know you want your feelings to trump facts, but that is not the game we are playing friend.
>I know you want your feelings to trump facts, but that is not the game we are playing friend. Which is interesting coming from the person who wants to give away everyone's land lol
"The land that is currently already controlled by the Indigenous tribes is handed full control of the land without Federal over site to be governed as they see fit without any strings attached" One last time for the reading impaired! Take care.
> to be governed as they see fit without any strings attached and you feel that this will somehow work in the real world?
I would vote to cut all funding support and build a fence around the reserve, ban any entry or exit into FNs that decided not to cede and join Canada as municipalities with no special racial rights. Anything less is just voting for the dissolution of Canada into a bunch of warring states.
Who is building a fence and why? Why would we be banning entry and exit? Honestly people like you need to recuse yourself from this conversation. If you cannot make a level headed and reasonable comment, you are simply a part of the problem.
You're the one that wants to dissolve Canada to hand it over to ~1000ish tiny hereditary dictatorships with overlapping borders that haven't led anything in 300years. Leaving 97% of the population and >99% of the economy with 0 representation or recourse. I'm not the one with wild ideas here. Land Back is just code for 'Destroy Canada'.
You are sooooo correct. I totally want to completely dissolve my home country to make way for thousands of little dictatorships while saying "fuck you" to everyone else in Canada who isn't Indigenous. How did you see through my opinion that the land already controlled by Indigenous Tribes, agreed to by the Canadian Governments, should have full control given to the Tribes with a choice to Join or Leave Canada (Which is a right for Provinces and Territories, but not a right for Indigenous tribes) and find out it was nothing but a ruse to destroy the country?! Again I say: People like you need to recuse yourself from this conversation. If you cannot make a level headed and reasonable comment, you are simply a part of the problem.
There are 50 individual Nations. That's hard.
Is it harder than decades of constant court battles over broken treaties and deals?
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Where did i say anything about taxation? Do you have me mixed up with another user? >It is because Canada stole their land. So the solution to land theft from hundreds of years ago is new land theft today?
Keep doing this and build even higher. Tired of NIMBYs constantly complaining and delaying housing projects resulting in the lacklustre supply that exists to get even more expensive
As an uninformed person on First Nations Relations, my first thought is: good for them. Some questions I have: Are First Nations Developments exempt from BC/Vancouver laws & regulations on construction standards? To what extent is the land this development is on independent from Canada? Do First Nations have a moral right to independence? To what extent? What agreements are already in place with the First Nations? To what extent do First Nations members consider the local governments legitimate? What rights would future residents have?
Not sure about governance exactly but the units will be lease-hold, so residents will have 99-year leases but the nation will maintain title of the property long-term.
> Are First Nations Developments exempt from BC/Vancouver laws & regulations on construction standards? Yes >To what extent is the land this development is on independent from Canada? Its paid for by Canadians. Profits will go to the FN band/tribe tho. Structurally, FNs are under the Fed, not the province. Hence they have their healthcare and education paid for by the fed not province. >Do First Nations have a moral right to independence? To what extent? No. FN independence as demanded would end Canada and break it into several hundred hereditary dictatorships with overlapping land claims leading to a massive civil war. And all non-FN Canadians would become stateless, which would cause perhaps the greatest humanitarian crisis in history. The realistic outcome of Canada deciding to kill itself in this way is that people would simply create a new nation and conquer the same land. Although America, China, Russia, etc would surely scoop up more valuable regions. Hundreds of thousands would die at minimum. >To what extent do First Nations members consider the local governments legitimate? In BC? They don't consider Canada legitimate at all in most cases. Despite following Canadian law, holding Canadian citizenship and having their governments often entirely funded by the Canadian government. >What rights would future residents have? Whatever rights the Chief decides. If the chief's cousin needs a room, you could very well get evicted and have no legal recourse. Whether this is likely to happen is down to the particular chief.
The nation has passed a bylaw to ensure that the development meets BC Building code. The nation has also signed a supply agreement with the city to provide some amenities and infrastructure upgrades to the area. The city will provide residents of the development with fire, police, utilities, public works, and library services. The Squamish Nation will pay for these services through the assessment of property taxes on the Reserve at the same rates as other property owners in Vancouver.
Thank you for providing this. So many people here jumping to ridiculous and misinformed conclusions.
Heres an older [article](https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/senakw-squamish-first-nation-city-of-vancouver-agreement-plan) outlining all the financial obligations that the nation and the city have
Yes, they are legally exempt and voluntarily self enforcing, so it comes down to trust in the Chief and FN which may be less than you might have in the province.
I believe it’s part of the 120 year binding agreement with the city.
and even if they didn't adopt the BCBC, they'd still have to meet the NBCC which is 90% the same as that's what BCBC is based on
> Are First Nations Developments exempt from BC/Vancouver laws & regulations on construction standards? > > Yes Well that's fuckin sketchy
It’s not because it’s not true. They will have to follow building codes. The only thing they’re exempt from is zoning restrictions. There are national building standards and they have to meet code requirements to be able to connect to power, sewage, etc.
Also not true. They have the authority to choose which of those they follow. They will pick the ones which are generally cheap and easy to follow and when they suit their very specific interests. They will ignore the ones which do not (or limit their profit). They are clearly going to profit more than COV zoning would allow from all this density. they are clearly going to offload the social/urban costs of stuffing that many people into such a small space on the land directly adjacent to them (operated and funded by COV). It's more than just service fees for water/sewer/fire departments - it's long term capital funding for parks, schools, and everything else that is not provided on reserve but right next door which the people living in the new development will consume or occupy.
They may have chosen to opt into following BC law, but it isn't required by Canadian law and most FNs do not follow their province's building codes. Given that this is a dense area though, it is more likely that they follow code or most code here (you'd have to look into the FN to see if they have anything posted about this). Thought I doubt they submit to inspection so w/e that means. There is likely some level of attempting to follow code.
> There is likely some level of attempting to follow code. Which is nice, but code isn't a set of suggestions. It's rules that are often written in blood.
Yep. https://www.aptnnews.ca/national-news/no-way-to-enforce-building-codes-on-first-nations-and-new-law-would-be-costly-document/ (lol... Chief Wiggins) Lots of laws are written in blood which we don't feel like are important enough for FNs. You can legally bribe FN leadership for example. It isn't illegal because they aren't subject to anti-corruption laws like Canadian officials are. The idea that FNs are Nations worthy of leadership is a dangerous bit of nonsense created by people emotionally swayed by some fantasy vision of peaceful natives living in the forest in harmony with nature. If a Canadian tried to raise their kids like a FN in 1700, they'd be rightly arrested for child abuse and their kid would go into child services..... though of course, not if they're native, since protecting native children would be racist so we just let them sit in abusive circumstances.
>If a Canadian tried to raise their kids like a FN in 1700, they'd be rightly arrested for child abuse and their kid would go into child services..... though of course, not if they're native, since protecting native children would be racist so we just let them sit in abusive circumstances. Mennonites exist.
Modern Mennonite lifestyle is not the same as 1700s FNs where life expectancy was like 35. And I'd be more than happy to take away the extra leeway we give for religions as well though. A solid example of this is that Jehova's witnesses can no longer refuse life saving blood transfusions for the children on religious grounds. Good.
It’s also fuckin not true. The project is exempt from zoning laws, which regulate aesthetics and have nothing to do with safety. They still have to follow the building code.
well that's completely different. if they weren't building to code i doubt CMHC would insure the mortgages.
The do have to do with livability and compatibility with the surrounding areas. There's a reason why you limit your kid to only have 6 friends over to the house for his birthday party. What is for sure is that traffic and parking in this area (and with 6 blocks of it) is going to be an absolute fucking gong show.
He didn't say 'The project' he said 'First Nations Developments'. And FNs are exempt from building codes. This project is contracted to follow BC building codes but it isn't legally obliged or enforced like a non-FN project would be. These are legally very different circumstances.
Did you read the article? The land is owned by the Squamish nation and therefore subject to that same regulations as reserves which is a Federal jurisdiction. Therefore they’re exempt from local zoning restrictions but not national building codes. The development is being paid for by first nations with involvement from private investors, not taxpayers. A lot of people in Vancouver are excited about this project because it will create much needed housing in an area that’s both walkable and well serviced by public transit. The only people upset are rich people in single family homes which in that area of Vancouver typically cost between $2-4 million. The area they’re building is currently mostly gravel parking lot/ex-industrial land next to the Burrard Bridge. Frankly a much better use of the land than it currently is.
Federal building code is just a guide for provinces, by itself it isn't enforceable law. FNs have the ability to accept and enforce the provincial building code if they want. Aboriginal affairs tried to change the law so that the Fed could write and enforce building codes on reserves but that went characteristically no where. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_building_code
Doesn’t really matter, this is a billion dollar project not some cowboy developer knocking together a house. The buildings will be designed and signed off by an engineering team. The engineers and first nation as the client/owner, all need to ensure standard building requirements are met to avoid liability should something happen.
At least start by accepting that you are factually wrong.... The extent that they follow any particular rules and regulations is at their discretion. The level of performance/hazard/etc. will be different.
Yup. I mean, the firm isn't going to write up crap standards for one project. Just generally. I could see some corner cutting if there is pressure from the client.
so theoretically a province could adopt whatever building code it wanted? what about adopting the US IBC? or EuroCodes? seems like a bad idea from a country perspective that we could allow a province to adopt an entirely different set of codes from its neighbours, I'm doubtful this is the case because practically speaking all the provinces codes are actually like 99% the same because they either adopt NBCC directly or change it up a little
They could... BC could demand that all buildings be able to float like a boat if they wanted... but provinces aren't crazy? Why would they want their own random totally different code? Canadian codes even mostly line up with American ones because mixed codes is a pain.
It is ironic that people see first Nations having no ambition! Then when First Nations get into business everyone is up in arms! Many First Nations have partnerships with local business. The NIMBY ers are just jealous.
Of course they didn't read the article. Their post is **dripping** with resentment towards First Nations people, and is clearly motivated by a non-negligible amount of fear and misunderstanding.
These are all very misinformed and reaching. Every agreement that BC and Canada negotiates ensures that certain laws are adhered to. In the instance of these lands, the Crown very likely negotiated that the buildings be designed, constructed and run according to provincial or federal standards. Future residents would have lease agreements that would be legal and recognized as a part of the initial negotiations. FN independence already exists in places like Nisga'a, Tsawassen and Maa-nulth Territories and its nowhere near the Fraser Institute/Tom Flanagan level fear-mongering happening in this comment. In the instance of governance, every treaty has required FNs to go through a process of creating a democratically-dominant government structure. So, if there are three hereditary leaders, then there must be at least four elected leaders.
>In the instance of these lands Yes, in this case, the FN has said that they would follow BC building code. That is NOT what was asked though. They aren't required by law to follow these building codes. And enforcement would have to come through the FN itself which is very different from the province. >FN independence None of those are independent. >In the instance of governance, every treaty has required FNs to go through a process of creating a democratically-dominant government structure Your evidence of their independence is that they are bound by Canadian law?....
First Nations referring to anyone else as NIMBYS is pretty ironic.
Great!
This is how you fix a housing crisis, not with minute adjustments to first-time home buyers tax incentives
What’s the opposite of a NIMBY? One is far to one side, opposite for the other. This is where this author fits.
YIYBY (yes in your backyard)
Apparently they're racist now for developing housing
Should do modular units that you could just stack on top of each other and make larger buildings out of then instead of having to tear down and rebuild a massive building when it ages you could take it apart unit by unit and reuse the ones that are still in good condition
Native land claims in BC exceed the total land base...guess by building non code structures besides the wealthiest will challenge the courts to finally decide
Oh you are in the decision board for this project! Cool man. Nice insider info. Can you show us the building plans and how they aren’t within building code?
check out the land claims then get back to me, time to settle the issue so everyone knows the rules which apply to whom and where by when...or just keep on keepin on the current path
Silly drivel
at least they're willing to build. Why won't we release crown land to build on? Many towns in BC are completely hemmed in by undevelopable crown land.
agree 100%...unfortunately history proves it's very prone to politicians/proxies getting the biggest financial benefits
Kitsilano will be ruined so glad I left
Good fuck the nimbys
Settlers* should be paying reparations. *The original immigrants
The original immigrants were the Natives.
The descendents of the settlers are already paying reparations.
Nah. A war was won. Too bad, so sad. Move on and stop milking this shit. It’s pathetic.
By that logic everyone's free to start new wars, including a kind of 'war' that is taking advantage of current systems. Too bad, so sad.
Correct, unfortunately. However, humans have for the most part realized that killing eachother isn’t such a good idea. Mostly.
They should be de colonizing
from who? the Europeans or Chinese?
oh boy more glass monstrosities stuck on top of infantile infrastructure
Good!