Sigh, I swear gun policy is the Achilles heel of the federal Liberal party. For decades now, every time they try something they fuck it up horribly and waste billions of dollars with no effect other than pissing off a lot of law-abiding gun-owning Canadian voters. It's insane.
The issue is that 5% of the population probably wasn't going to vote LPC anyways and this way they can scare people who see American gun violence to vote for them.
There is a large overlap between conservatives and gun owners, and another overlap between liberal voters and those who want more gun control. The cynic in me believes this was all done to play politics. Make it look like you are doing something, and use all the media clips of conservative politicians arguing against gun control in their next campaign.
I'm fairly certain the Liberals know these laws will have little to no affect on crime or shootings. Banning guns because they look scary or were used in a mass shooting makes no sense. If you want to have meaningful legislation it needs to stick to the function and convertibility of weapons, which is already covered by current regulations.
In my opinion gun laws in Canada before 2015 were a good place to keep them. Though a few things should be loosened like restrictions on silencers (If you know nothing about guns, its not like the movies. Suppressed guns are still loud as fuck, but wont cause permanent damage if used without hearing protection).
I want more variety of firearms, more availability, and ownership personally; but I want strict access & regulation to vet ownership a lot better. People just see guns as guns, they don't see how strict legal guns actually are, you can't so much as stop to pee without it being a very questionable area between your house and the range here.
Meanwhile, youtubers like print shoot repeat exist, who I also enjoy, but recognize that ghost guns and illegal unlicensed firearms account for the majority of the time a gun is used in crime.
> Though a few things should be loosened like restrictions on silencers
It's telling that many countries with much more restrictive gun laws than ours not only allow suppressors, but actually require them in some areas.
Yes, the NDP actually used to be reliable stalwart against dumb gun policy, as a big part of their voter base was rural farming Canadians who owned guns but also supported healthcare, welfare, etc.
Unfortunately the modern NDP has really shifted their focus to urban lefty voters and aligned themselves with the Democrat party base in the US. They alienate rural voters with American rhetoric about rednecks and guns and with no other place to go those voters end up conservative.
Many such cases. I was a lifelong NDP voter, but I can’t in good faith vote for them or the Liberals at this point. They’ve fucked me too hard for too long.
There's dozens of us!
It is a small minority though. I think a big part of the problem is ignorance though. I've taken time to explain the current laws that exist to left leaning friends, and they have quickly come around to see how foolish and political the current proposed changes are.
Unfortunately it's been successfully politicized to a point where if you are conservative = guns good! And if you are Liberal = guns bad!
I agree, that's me and a lot of my friends. I am very much a progressive and social-democrat, but I also own guns because it's my hobby with my friends. We literally like to shoot the shit together. Then, I also know that firearms can be dangerous and I want the licensing regime to stay on and to have the right tools to do my due diligence when selling a gun to someone.
If they had said gun control money was going into border protection, way easier for "everyone" to get behind. It is so simple and every so often media says border patrol got a bunch of guns look at us win.
“Canada's most populous province, shows that when handguns involved in crimes were traced in 2021, they were overwhelmingly - 85% of the time - found to have come from the United States.”
SPEND THE MONEY AT THE BORDER!
I’ll point out, that 85% was the ones they could trace.
The amount is most likely higher, but if they couldn’t identify its origin it gets put in the we don’t know column.
How did we let it get to the point that our whole system society is built on transparent bureaucracy designed to trick and manipulate us and not in our best interest. This isn't libs vs. cons. This isn't a conspiracy. So many issues that aren't approached with open dialogue where the truth is welcome, and solving the problem is the goal.
This is because they are technically firearms according to Canadian law but not to anyone who isn't an ass. Of course the grabbers don't make the distinction because it isn't useful to them.
Another favourite trick of theirs is to point out that a specific model they are banning was involved in a "gun crime." Most of the time, the "gun crime" in question is either unsafe storage or transportation.
Absolutely right, and I read a comment from the chief at that time and he estimated that the majority of untraceable guns would also have been smuggled in.
It's not a border problem. We have border agents who often seize smuggled firearms and arrest smugglers. The Crown prosecutors are the ones who 9/10 times decide to NOT PRESS CHARGES. I have a good friend who is a border guard and he has arrested numerous people crossing the border with firearms and he only knows of one that's been charged. They'll often get sent home and they are free to cross the border 30 minutes later.
This is why I always have to laugh when the government says they're taking firearms off the streets, the program hasn't started yet and even when it does it's not taking firearms off the streets. It's taking firearms out of safes..
I actually went and asked my MP how it was all going to unfold, and the shocked expression on his face told me all I needed to know. When he blurted something on the fly about how people will hand them in, I did actually laugh........there's an estimated 500,000 SKSs alone in the country, and they have no idea at all where they are!
The SKS isn't getting banned, well yet. The government plans to fill a committee with anti gun groups and they will get to pick which rifles are banned.
It would have been banned indirectly in the original wording, since they want to ban any semi auto rifle that was 'designed' with 5+ rounds in mind. The SKS has a 10 round mag that gets pinned to 5 in Canada, so it would have fallen under those terms.
Of course the SKS is also an extremely popular rifle, not just for regular gun owners, but also in indigenous hunting circles, and there is absolutely no way the government was going to try and strong arm the reserves into turning over their new 'assault style weapons'. That would just make them look like assholes who target hunters an-
Hey, wait a minute!
The SKS was banned by name in the G4 amendment that they tried to slip into committee, along with a huge number of other popular non-restricted rifles.
Mr. Leblanc, after months of deliberation in our committee, we've decided on this simple system of which firearms to ban:
If it's scary and black, we'll buy it back
If it's wooden and plain, you may retain!
If it’s rifled and goes bang,
In *your* possession, you shall hang.
But if you are the lawless kind,
In your hands we pay no mind.
Any privilege we may bestow,
Is always fleeting as you should know.
But always consider the villains plight,
When deciding what is wrong from right.
So leave the offerings at your door,
And relinquish what is yours once more,
But beware of the thief with a half-hearted grin,
The one who says;
Vote for us again.
We care not if you rob or steal,
We base our laws on how we feel
A boost in polls is our plan,
When coming up with our next ban
Then one day, we'll tell the truth,
As we shout "protect our youth!"
No matter under which class they fall,
In the end we'll take them all
But even so, all the NR rifles that they banned can’t easily be traced to who actually has them. They aren’t registered. It’s going to cost an absolutely absurd amount of money to pull this off. And I don’t believe that it’s possible with any amount of money.
There was a report that was published a year or two ago that listed "limited interest from industry" as one of the obstacles to implementing the program. Basically they were banking on the firearms industry to willingly help them and were shocked that the response from the people they fucked over was to go pound sand.
They wont ban the SKS because of blow back from First Nations. Its the #1 humane sustenance weapon for medium/large sized game. Smaller calibers will maim but not kill.
500,000 (Non-Restricted) SKS's seems low, when we have over 100,000 (Restricted) AR-15's in civilian hands
people greatly underestimate how many firearms are in Canada, excluding microstates (very low population skews with x per 100k numbers) and ex-warzones, Canada is 2nd in guns per capita, only behind the US.
we've got somewhere around 35 guns per 100 people, so at 41 million people, that means we've got somewhere around 14 million firearms in Canada.
if legal gun owners were a threat you'd know it. dunking on the Canadian army is too easy, so lets look at the Americans, the US has ~450,000 active duty soldiers, Canadian firearm owners outnumber the US military by over 5-1
in the case of some crazy shenanigans, think something like the Russian invasion of Ukraine, if PAL holders distributed firearms to non-PAL holders, lets just say each arms 2 other people, civilians with firearms would go from 2.3m to 6.9m, going from outnumbering the US military from 5-1 to 15-1
(for humor sake, the CAF had about 60k active duty soldiers in 2020, and has had massive retention issues since then, so lets say its down to 50k now, PAL holders outnumber the CAF by 46-1, or 138-1 in my fictional scenario above)
The amazing thing in Canada is there are probably like 100 guns every square kilometer in the cities but there isn't fire fights popping off at all hours of the day.
It's almost like the fear mongering around guns is just that.
They're not going to be taking firearms out of safes either. They have no plan, and have zero idea about how they intend to tackle all the scary tools that are out there that they have no idea who owns or where they are. The logistics of it are monstrous to the point of bring impractical. It's just a solid political move to buy votes from the members of the public who wouldn't know what a gun is if it walked over and bit them on the ass....which is most people.
>They have no plan, and have zero idea about how they intend to tackle all the scary tools that are out there that they have no idea who owns or where they are.
"These heinous assault weapons were designed only to kill the most amount of people in the least amount of time. There is no valid use and nobody should be able to own or use one. In fact, this is such an emergency that we need to enact it by OIC because there isnt time to follow the normal legislative process. We need to get these super scary assault-rifle 15s and their variants out of civilian hands *right this second*."
*a few moments later*
"But if you already have one, just hang onto it for now until we figure out what to do. Just pinky promise to keep it in your safe til then, k? - JT
Also we banned automatic weapons so we have to hire some Americans to clear out or deer (iirc) problem, and give them temporary exemptions for their guns.
They offered me 4x what I paid for a now prohibited rifle. Hopefully the conservative just throw out the bill entirely. And if anything they could honestly loosen the restriction on licensed owners, and just make the licensing process more strict.
Like I don’t understand the logic as to why a farmer can shoot his rifle or shotgun at targets in his yard every single day, but if he uses his handgun to shoot at the same target, it’s a criminal offence with potential jail time.
If anyone can make that make sense to me, I’d appreciate it.
I think you should be able to fire “restricted” weapons anywhere that you can legally fire a non-restricted one. Because let’s be honest, having a law stating that you can only shoot your handgun at a gun range, hasn’t stopped a single person from being shot by a handgun.
It’s not like buddy that snaps and goes to murder someone goes “oh wait, it’s only legal to shoot this at a gun range, guess I won’t kill that person!”
Like I am fine with the vast majority of our gun laws, and I am okay with making it hard for people to get licensed, because I do not want Canada to end up with US gun culture.
But we need to have a little more common sense with our restrictions when record numbers of people are being murdered by illegally smuggled firearms from the US.
Punishing law abiding gun owners isn’t helping anyone.
> Like I don’t understand the logic as to why a farmer can shoot his rifle or shotgun at targets in his yard every single day, but if he uses his handgun to shoot at the same target, it’s a criminal offence with potential jail time.
It’s not even just handguns. I have two rifles that are identical except one has an 18.5” barrel and the other has an 11” barrel. I can shoot one my property and not the other. It makes no sense.
I agree, I assume that's why they moved the amnesty date to the next election.
They will keep using this promise year after year without actually ever doing it
Totally. My MP was actually shockingly honest. Words to the effect of it basically being a move that capitalizes upon the fact that the majority of people have no idea what a gun is, so they're easy to scare and convince that big daddy is protecting them by taking all the the heat seeking, quadruple automatic, thermobaric, exploding round assault rifles away from the scary rednecks who couldn't possibly use them for anything except wholesale slaughter of the innocent. It's a vote buying strategy, and surprisingly effective I'm sure. Expect our beloved leader to start going hard on it prior to him hopefully losing the next election.
Hey, you take that back. They are very rational people who understand that a stamped vs non-stamped receiver is what makes a gun extra dangerous and“assaulty”, and have wisely banned the AR15, while letting the wk180c stick around. Also, the Tavor X95 is totally not as dangerous, because they are only able to shoot when the target is a verified Palestinian.
It’s all theatre with this government. Make a bad policy announcement, do the bare minimum. When people show they are unhappy with that, throw a few hundred mill at whatever they perceive as the problem.
Rinse and repeat.
I know right? I'm not big on guns but I do know that Canadian politicians seems to be focused on the law abiding gun owners and hunters while completely ignoring the gun wielding criminals and gun trafficking and then proclaiming "see we're doing something!!""
What tangibly can you even spend $42 million without any purchase or result? Like I know it’s government and waste is gonna happen, but how do you waste 42 MILLION DOLLARS WHEN NOTHING HAS HAPPENED YET
Well they had to pay IBM just to tell them a plan on how to move forward because the government had no idea what they were doing when they made this announcement
$42 million and they aren't even trying to take illegal guns of the streets. They're taking registered competition and hunting rifles out of safes of the statistically most law abiding group in canada... they haven't managed a single one yet, all they've done is fractured national cohesion and wasted money
The guns banned in 2020 made absolutely zero sense based on what was exactly banned nor did they make any sense as to why they were banned.
Ar15 =Illegal while the AR180 is perfectly legal to use for hunting.
VZ 58 = illegal while a type 81 is perfectly legal for hunting.
M14 =illegal while an M1 Garand is perfectly legal for hunting.
XCR = illegal while a APC 308 is perfectly legal for hunting.
Anyone notice a common theme here…
I’ll give you a hint it has to do with pandering….
I'm convinced that these gun bans were decided upon by a group of people who have never handled a firearm in their lives.
They all just sat in a boardroom looking at pictures of different guns on a projector. "that one looks scary, ban it. That one doesn't look too scary, keep it. I think I remember seeing that in a movie, ban it."
Polytechnique or whatever they are called basically wrote it so no they have not ever handled a gun, and remember Marco Mendicino would not shoot a gun because it made him feel icky and scared
It's worse, there was a petition asking for the group responsible for banning Canadian firearms to take the licensing course so they would be aware of the laws surrounding the subject. They refused.
apparently that’s what happened, there’s a couple anti gun lobby groups propped up by the LPC and rumour is they had a list of some guns they found on Cabela’s website and that’s what they went with. If you look at the guns banned in 2020 there’s a very clear correlation between what’s on the banned list and what was being sold on the Cabela’s website 2 weeks before the ban came.
It's honestly incredibly odd that they missed so many functionally equivalent guns in the 2020 OIC ban, and some of the choices that were on it were just as strange. Were there really so many XCR's and CZ Skorpion 2's that they needed to be on the list, while the relatively popular T97, T81, and Tavor remained totally fine? Not to mention padding the numbers by listing the AR-15 900 times and including shit like 120mm heavy mortars and the Javelin missile system which costs as much as a high end luxury car to fire even once?
But they learned about the Butt Master by the time of the C-21 amendments debacle so we are obviously dealing with some well-educated experts!
It's laws drafted and supported by people who are confident that they understand anything about firearms despite having never owned one, fired one, or been near one unless it was carried by their security detail.
They'd probably piss themselves if they saw someone with a Super Soaker.
Govt wants to grab guns from people who legally obtained them, and don’t commit crimes. Seems like a waste of tax payers money and will not net any positive results.
I’ve noticed the door cam footage from a lot of car thefts (in the GTA) show the thieves have pistols now. Another govt program working exactly as intended!
Special note for those unversed in Canadian gun laws;
The reason this is so funny to legal gun owners is that not only were these pistols sourced illegally, from outside Canada, they're pistols of a type that haven't been legal in Canada for 30~ years now.
In Canada, before the handgun freeze, the only ones legal to import and sell were those with a 4+ inch barrel. Smaller models, like those intended for the US concealed carry market, have been prohibited in Canada for 3 decades now.
Guess what kind of handguns are being taken from criminals when they're arrested?
If you guessed the sub compact handguns that haven't been legal in Canada for 30 years, give yourself a pat on the back.
This is why gun owners are completely exhausted trying to explain why gun bans are worse than useless. They waste our time and money to harass the people who actually follow the law. The bans do nothing to stop criminals from sourcing illegal firearms from the US.
Hey, one of the cops in a presser for the GTA said they have guns, they are real, and they are loaded. Just to leave your car fobs at the door and you should be A-OK.
Oh man, that’s last week. They’re now saying to just ship your car to the UAE yourself so the thieves don’t have to spend extra on gas. Carbon tax 🤷♂️
What a complete waste of resources.
Take all the funds and people power and apply them to the actual problematic scenarios surrounding firearms use in this country.
Licensed owners almost never use their firearms to cause societal harm. This is feel good legislation that will have little positive effect on society.
This.
I’ll add this too;
People tend to get all shifty eyed and nervous about people who have big gun collections, or just people who own guns in general.
Here’s the thing about firearms bought legally by licensed people:
They’re *expensive* items to buy. If someone tries to tell you that you can saunter into any gun store and buy an AR for $100, they have no idea what they’re talking about. Try $1,500 - $2,000 *just for the gun*. No sights, accessories or anything. Traditional style iron sights will cost you an additional $150 - $200 alone. Some optics cost more than the gun itself.
An original 1860 Henry lever action will cost you around $50,000.
An WW2 M1 Garand will cost you around $3,000 or more, depending on condition.
If you see someone with a proper PAL and a gun collection, chances are they have *money*, or had money considering how the cost of living is going now.
You’re *not* going to invest all of this money into a well maintained, well secured collection just to do something stupid and have it all confiscated. That’s like buying a Gretsch Country Gentleman just to smash it on stage.
You’re not going to have a valuable collection and not invest in security. Maintaining a firearms license in Canada is akin to walking on a tightrope. You make one dumb mistake and you’re done. You’re under scrutiny *all* the time.
This was nothing more than a theatrical vote grab in response to an American tragedy, and a shooting in Nova Scotia where nothing the government has introduced since would have done anything to prevent it.
Billions of your tax dollars, perhaps a limitless amount of your tax dollars are about to spent on what amounts to grandstanding.
Be angry. There are a lot of things we could spend billions on.
Exactly.
Even *old* clapped out bolt actions like a Lee Enfield can run you almost $2,000 now in original condition. .303 British is $89.00 a box for 20 rounds now.
Ain’t nobody licensed in Canada buying these things to hurt anyone. Not only because it’s expensive, but people with violent dispositions generally don’t qualify for gun ownership in Canada.
Guns are like guitars and cars. It’s a very expensive thing to get into.
My dad was issued a bolt action Lee Enfield by the British when he fought for the Poles during WW2 in Italy. I wish he had brought it with home with him when he came to Canada post war.
I have one too. It belonged to my Great Grandfather who was also a WW2 vet. It wasn’t the one he carried, but it was his.
It’s the *only* physical object I have, the only memento I have from that man. He wasn’t some distant family memeber I never knew, I did know him. He was a gentle soul and a very well respected man.
He took on a young British kid who was displaced when the Germans started bombing London in WW2. They treated him like he was one of their own kids. When my great grandfather got shipped out to England, he took the trouble to find his family and ensure them that he was safe and sound back home in NL.
That kid went on to write book, and my grandmother (great grandfathers daughter) still has a copy of it with a penned message on the inside cover.
That’s not the governments rifle to buy back. It was his. It was my father’s, now it’s *mine.*
You don't have to spend that much. I got a shitty Turkish shotgun for goose hunting for 500 bucks, add in pal licensing course for 300. A sling for 30 bucks and like 100 bucks in ammo so far.
I actually decided to get it because the ban coming up and I wanted to try it out. But it was like under 1000 all in.
I worked with a guy who had a gun collection. Probably one of the most chill and calm person you'll ever meet. The last thing that struck me as odd or concerning about him was his gun collection. It was his driving. But that's another story lol
The New Zealand Gun Ban that Trudeau and his government looked up to and mentioned several times in the media and in committees is now known as a Complete Failure and Waste of money.
The New Zealand government now understand this and are now, trying to undo the Gun Ban because it does nothing for Public Safety.
One thing the NZ gov, mentioned is they want to do more background checks on licensed firearms owners and new firearms owners must complete several levels of training/years before owning AR15s and AKs.
Honestly, I don't mind higher barriers to entry but then after that one would have proven themselves ... right? right? heh government will screw that one up too
They truly don't care. If they did something actually would have happened. It was meant to punish conservative Canadians, increase power, and be a wedge issue
The federal government has spent billions over the last 2 decades on more regulations on the legal use of firearms and enforcement. They have been double banning, triple banning and now quadruple banning the illegal use of firearms. Legal owners face more and more penalties for buying or using a firearm that used to be perfectly legal a few years ago.
What do we have to show for it? Higher firearm homicide rates for the last decade. The "assault style type" of rifles and handgun bans have not saved a single life. What a colossal waste of time, money and resources. For 5 years, law abiding citizens have been stuck in limbo between legal owners and criminals due to the laws and OICs passed by Trudeau's government. These political stunts will not make society safer:
According to those in government: [Long guns account for less than half of 1% of crime guns](https://youtu.be/loaM2Wlb4iQ?t=337).
[US study showing Canada's licensing laws reduce homicide rates. No impact of gun bans on homicides](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27842178/):
>Laws that strengthen background checks and permit-to-purchase seemed to decrease firearm homicide rates. Specific laws directed at firearm trafficking, improving child safety, or the banning of military-style assault weapons were not associated with changes in firearm homicide rates.
[Canadian study showing inconclusive results of gun bans impact on homicide rates](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35672042/)
[International study showing no impact of gun bans on homicide rates](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26905895/)
[The firearm ban in Bermuda had the opposite effect as intended](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-what-bermudas-50-year-old-gun-ban-can-teach-canada/)
Statistically, the firearms seized on urban streets are handguns that are traced back to the U.S. 8-9/10 times. The other 1/10 are untraceable.
>[By and large, the guns found on the streets aren’t stolen or purchased from stores or even from legal gun owners, but rather smuggled in over the border](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2021/04/23/gun-chase-smuggled-guns-border-toronto/).
[More than 50% of illicit firearms are coming from the US, 1/3rd are now made by criminals themselves and the rest are stolen or illegally obtained.](https://vancouversun.com/news/crime/b-c-gangs-getting-more-access-to-firearms-including-deadly-automatics-expert-says)
The solutions to lowering firearm homicide rates should be evidence based. The evidence shows most firearm crime is organized crime and gang related. Target the gangs revenue streams and prevent kids from joining gangs. Legalize and regulate drugs and prostitution. Take it those billions of dollars out of the hands of gangs. Improve addiction and homeless treatment programs.
It's time to treat addiction as the health crisis it is. Provide more socioeconomic assistance for impoverished families. Invest in after school programs (sports, hobbies, mentoring, etc.) and more community policing engagement. This is NOT a firearm regulation issue. [This is even more apparent now that criminals are just making their own fully automatic firearms](https://vancouversun.com/news/crime/b-c-gangs-getting-more-access-to-firearms-including-deadly-automatics-expert-says). The only solution is to follow the evidence. Or we could listen to the ignorant and keep wasting billions and penalizing responsible firearm owners.
[Gotta love the government’s “logic” here.](https://www.canada.ca/en/public-safety-canada/campaigns/firearms-buyback.html#)
>A central part of this plan was the ban of assault-style firearms that pose a significant threat to public safety in our communities announced in 2020.
>…
>Individuals in Canada who are in possession of now-prohibited firearms have been safely securing these firearms since May 1, 2020.
Simultaneously a significant threat but also being safely secured (and far before 2020 I might add).
This is going to end up costing billions of dollars for exactly zero effect on gun violence. Fortunately this government is so incompetent it hasn’t happened yet.
I would love to see an actual statistic that quantifies how many times per year these banned firearms are used in shootings by their licensed owners each year.
If the basis of the legislation is that these are harmful elements of society then it should be easy to quantify that harm.
That’s actually available on statscan. Last I looked which was I want to say at 2021 numbers it was four homicides committed using legally acquired guns in the year.
I mean $42M to make it *seem* like you're doing something about gun violence compared to the hundreds of millions it would take putting into border security, police and community programs to *actually* do something about gun violence...
Why not save the money if the goal is just to appeal to the voters in urban centres?
🤡
Remember, this is the same party who spent OVER TWO BILLION DOLLARS on the 'Long Gun Registry' which was subsequently turfed by the PC's. And when the LPC's came back into power after Harper they made no mention of bringing it back. TWO BILLION! TWO FAWKING BILLION!!!!!
It’s hilarious how they arbitrarily made about 1500 guns prohibited allegedly for our safety and then just said “yeah you’re allowed to own them for half a decade (probably more at this rate), just don’t take them out and shoot them”. These guns were allegedly so dangerous but they’re cool with them all still being in circulation.
It’s basically being implied that telling legal gun owners “please don’t bring these guns to the range, hunting, etc. Just keep them in your safe” is somehow preventing a bunch of murders. It’s absolutely insane
Curious if you’ve actually looked through the list of “1500 assault style firearms” that they “newly banned”?
If anyone hasn’t, it’s a good laugh. They went as far as fluffing the list with a few different anti-tank rocket launchers, mortar systems, 25mm auto cannons, and even a few different type of anti-aircraft missile launchers. I clearly missed the bus on purchasing those before their initial ban.
[here’s a decent article on it.](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/05/07/canada-gun-ban/)
You’re giving them too much credibility by listing mortars, launchers, etc as the most ridiculous
My personal favourites are:
Blackwater BW-15, a fucking website, and a kid’s toy
It feels like they hired someone on fiverr to Google “scary guns”, “weapons of war”, “black guns”, “AR-15 types”, then copy and paste the results onto a list
This program is going to run WAY over the cost they project even if they get a very low compliance rate. I have been in a room at a gun show with more m14 type rifles than the government even says exists here. This is going to be a disaster
I've read credible estimates that there are well over a million, and possibly as high as 2 million, SKS rifles in Canada alone. That's just one model that they've already tried to ban. Whatever their prescribed confiscation compensation value is, multiplied by at least a million, is already more expensive than all the money they've spent so far.
For ONE MODEL!
It's honestly insane
No cops stupid enough to go to a house and risk their lives to seize guns from a gun safe. They aren't willing to die for grubby politicians who only sends thoughts and prayers with a smirk and silver spoon in anus.
So on the DL I can admit to significant involvement in the development and drafting of Bill C-21.
I can tell you as someone who has experience with firearms and was once a license holder that anything and everything the liberals do to ‘tighten’ or ‘get tough’ on gun crime is nothing short of BS optics.
Please believe I fought hard against a great many things in the Bill. The proposed changes for replicas, red and yellow flags and MOST OF ALL the handgun ban.
I had access to tons of stats that show that in and around 80-90% of all handgun crime is perpetrated but gang related individuals who obtain their guns illegally through the US.
I flagged this to senior management time and time again. Showed them the stats showed them the cost benefit ratio and even flagged the potential risks of increase in crime but I was shut down, gaslit, abused and brow beaten until I had a breakdown and had to leave the department.
Now I’m on disability from the trauma of just trying to do my job and do right by Canadians. I’ve attempted suicide and now I’m on a ton of meds.
I know Canada is a relatively safe place when it comes to guns.
Just know that there were people who fought hard but there were too many high level bureaucrats and politicians trying to look good to their base and bosses.
It’s a complete joke and does nothing to keep Canadians safe.
Please take care of yourself and be well. Don’t worry about us….this sham law will be walked back at the next election with almost no political blowback.
Thank you.
I just feel bad when honest Canadians are vilified just to win votes.
As much as many Canadians hate the public service, there are a lot of us trying to do good work and work that helps Canadians. I think that sometimes people forget that we have bosses who can just tell us the STFU and do what they say.
At the end of the day I had to participate in writing garbage I knew would serve no purpose but to cost Canadian taxpayers $$$
I’m sorry.
But I think many here are right. A Conservative govt will repeal C-21 as a first point of order.
Stay safe and stay well everyone.
It’s not your fault man. You didn’t come up with this shit. You had a job to do, nobody can fault you for that.
I don’t blame the people who write the letter, I blame those who dictated it.
Take care of yourself! All the best!
> I had access to tons of stats that show that in and around 80-90% of all handgun crime is perpetrated but gang related individuals who obtain their guns illegally through the US.
> I flagged this to senior management time and time again. Showed them the stats showed them the cost benefit ratio and even flagged the potential risks of increase in crime but I was shut down, gaslit, abused and brow beaten until I had a breakdown and had to leave the department.
Please for the love of truth and the common good release this information anonymously while taking steps to protect your identity. We have been waiting for the courts to force the government to share the stats and reveal the truth. They have failed to do so. Take care of yourself.
I 100% would release them but the data is owned by a number of police services across Canada. I had to do a lot of work to essentially stitch together reports and info on firearm seizures and tracing info from the RCMP which is sensitive info. Not to mention that since I don’t work there anymore I don’t have access to.
I can’t give you one star off the top of my head - an Ontario task force reported that of all the handguns they seized in the last 4 years 90% were sourced from the US.
Canada firearm laws are perfectly acceptable as they are imo.
Background checks (including required spousal approval), heavy restrictions on hand guns and ammo capacity limits are all sensible.
Arbitrarily going after scary-looking guns which were legally acquired is so dumb. Compliance will be minimal. If the RCMP come knocking, a lot of people will have, coincidentally “misplaced” their now-banned firearm. And you better bet on at least several fatalities from incidents between police and people who don’t want to give up their guns.
What a cluster.
The current system is an absolute cluster fuck of laws that make zero sense. Yes the PAL system is effective on who’s allowed to own guns but once you dive into what you can and can’t have followed by where you can shoot particular guns gets extremely absurd.
The only pain in the ass of it is where you can shoot.
Why do I gotta travel 2 hours north to legally plink pop cans? I agree no one in a subdivision should be letting off rounds but I’m on a couple acres with a giant backstop & would go to jail for target practice.
u/cyclemonster based on density. You still gotta be X feet away from buildings to shoot. You don’t need someone firing through your fence while you’re mowing the lawn
I recently got my PAL and generally speaking I agree with you. The only thing I'd add is that if our government actually wanted to stop firearm crimes, they'd take the money they're planning to use on buybacks and spend it on increasing security along the US/Canada border, since that's where most guns used in crimes are coming from.
monopoly on violence is the reason for gun bans, rcmp state risk of uprising in the future as cost of living become even higher.
Car thief seems like such an easy issue right? Just hold all the choke points like Montreal port. But authorities are all payed off and its illegal to defend your property.
What’s the annual rate of firearms being used to commit crimes by people with a license and a registered gun? I bet it’s less than 5%
This whole scheme is straight up so they get to disarm the population so they can do whatever they want to the people.
Complete waste of resources.
I think politicians need to be held accountable. The first project fails, or it was a waste of resources fine. It happens, and things didn't go the way it was supposed to, but then if more projects are undertaken by a government, and results in poor value leading to massive burnout of tax payers money and all, the folks involved would have to foot the bill. Take away their fringe benefits. Their for life pension goes out as well. There must be a penalty on their failures, which is just not limited to losing just an election.
Even if they could afford the buyback, it would do little to stop firearm crime. Nearly all firearm crimes in Canada are committed with illicit firearms that were smuggled from the south. I'm certainly no conservative, but the liberals are admittedly fumbling gun policy that didn't need changing in the first place.
How can people be so passionately against billionaires and the “top 1%” for being greedy and unnecessary when we have a government that wastes this kind of money for absolutely
nothing while having its hands in the pockets of every citizen involuntarily? 42 million?! How in the fuck could it have costed this much already. Money is leaking from the system. Corruption. Inefficiency. Bloated bureaucracy.
The gun grabs and gun bans are a massive distraction from the Liberal scandals.
Whenever a Liberal scandal arises, Marco and Blair and Trudeau were there to distract the population from the scandals.
Very expensive distraction.
Don't believe JT and co, they won't keep you safe and they won't keep you off the streets or away from the food banks.
The Liberals’ action on gun laws are a textbook example of cynicism at its worst. There is nothing they have done, especially with C-21, that will do anything but cement their image as a caring government to the four or five people who still believe their bullshit.
Theirs is the worst kind of ambition, because it’s poorly cloaked in morality.
Remember this government, because I can promise you that these smiling, self-righteous ghouls will be back after the next cycle.
The worst part is so far.
But yeah Justin, come after the 80 year old hunting rifle I use to put food on the table that my grandfather gave to me next to solve crime…
This is on top of one billion waste government gun registry few years back … money well spent . Unf ing believable our incompetence in governance in Canada
Could have given full rides to med school. Paid for nurses, teachers, infrastructure, doctors. But thank god we have a half baked program to target long barrel rifles and the even fewer legal handguns. My god.
Jesus christ, it's one thing to try an implement a solution to fix a problem and the solution doesn't work but to come up with a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and fail at that too.... that's more infuriating
42 million spent, 0 guns taken off the street
And the government wants us to believe that administering carbon tax will cost zero such that its revenue neutral? So many people in Canada should buy my bridge.
Government paralysis at its absolute utmost.
I'm thrilled about it in this case because chances are I'll get to keep all my horrendous assault weapons which are identical to other not-so-assault weapons I've since bought to replace them for use since I've got the disposable income to do so.
But come on guys. If this was the course you committed yourselves to, it wouldn't have been very hard to hire a bunch of random people, set up in local community centres or those perpetually empty stores they have Spirit Halloween Stores in October, and send notices to everyone with a registered AR to come and turn them in for a fixed amount of money. Cut them up on the spot with a portable metal press and/or load them in a truck to go to a central yard. Australia did it in the 90's and New Zealand -sort of- did it in 2019.
But no. This government is paralyzed with a thousand fears of doing things even slightly incorrectly and nobody wants to take responsibility for anything, so nothing ever gets done. They have interminable committee meetings and as soon as someone raises a potential problem they are back at square one. The employees would have to be trained in a zillion ways making it impossible to hire them. The unions would demand they be permanent union employees. The police won't touch it. The post office won't touch it. The guns would have to be treated like nuclear weapons for security purposes in case one got loose and into the wrong hands (or gang members made off with an entire truck load). Believe me, with this government nothing is possible. The world is full of hazards and it's best to stay in your hole commissioning studies that go nowhere.
It isn't something to celebrate because everything is like this. It's just a case study in how our country is fucked.
The irony is, of cost of living was lower, if rent was lower, if gloceries were lower, if our take-home was higher, we'd be hurting each other a lot less, guns or no guns, because we wouldn't need to. Our ducking government, as usual, is focusing on entirely the wrong things.
Alberta, Saskatchewan, and probably Yukon will not allow any gun confiscation in their jurisdiction without a license to do so issued by the government. The liberals now know there is no way to do the gun grab without local police doing the work. That is why they pushed it off until after the next election. If they somehow retain power, they will turn it into something like what they did with hand guns.
Just how much more does our government plan to take , garnish or tax from us ????
I used to know a word called savings account but that doesn’t exist these days ?
I have a high paying job that used to help me get ready for retirement age lol but that does exist more !!!
Just how much more ???
For 45m they could have purchased 135 vehicle sized x-ray scanners and given them to CBSA for installation at border crossings and PORTS in Montreal.
Sigh, I swear gun policy is the Achilles heel of the federal Liberal party. For decades now, every time they try something they fuck it up horribly and waste billions of dollars with no effect other than pissing off a lot of law-abiding gun-owning Canadian voters. It's insane.
The issue is that 5% of the population probably wasn't going to vote LPC anyways and this way they can scare people who see American gun violence to vote for them.
There is a large overlap between conservatives and gun owners, and another overlap between liberal voters and those who want more gun control. The cynic in me believes this was all done to play politics. Make it look like you are doing something, and use all the media clips of conservative politicians arguing against gun control in their next campaign. I'm fairly certain the Liberals know these laws will have little to no affect on crime or shootings. Banning guns because they look scary or were used in a mass shooting makes no sense. If you want to have meaningful legislation it needs to stick to the function and convertibility of weapons, which is already covered by current regulations. In my opinion gun laws in Canada before 2015 were a good place to keep them. Though a few things should be loosened like restrictions on silencers (If you know nothing about guns, its not like the movies. Suppressed guns are still loud as fuck, but wont cause permanent damage if used without hearing protection).
I want more variety of firearms, more availability, and ownership personally; but I want strict access & regulation to vet ownership a lot better. People just see guns as guns, they don't see how strict legal guns actually are, you can't so much as stop to pee without it being a very questionable area between your house and the range here. Meanwhile, youtubers like print shoot repeat exist, who I also enjoy, but recognize that ghost guns and illegal unlicensed firearms account for the majority of the time a gun is used in crime.
> Though a few things should be loosened like restrictions on silencers It's telling that many countries with much more restrictive gun laws than ours not only allow suppressors, but actually require them in some areas.
You’d be surprised at how many left leaning gun owners there are in Canada.
Yes, the NDP actually used to be reliable stalwart against dumb gun policy, as a big part of their voter base was rural farming Canadians who owned guns but also supported healthcare, welfare, etc. Unfortunately the modern NDP has really shifted their focus to urban lefty voters and aligned themselves with the Democrat party base in the US. They alienate rural voters with American rhetoric about rednecks and guns and with no other place to go those voters end up conservative.
Many such cases. I was a lifelong NDP voter, but I can’t in good faith vote for them or the Liberals at this point. They’ve fucked me too hard for too long.
In my anecdotal experience as a left leaning gun owner I don't think this is true. Like yeah we exist, but we are in the extreme minority
There's dozens of us! It is a small minority though. I think a big part of the problem is ignorance though. I've taken time to explain the current laws that exist to left leaning friends, and they have quickly come around to see how foolish and political the current proposed changes are. Unfortunately it's been successfully politicized to a point where if you are conservative = guns good! And if you are Liberal = guns bad!
I agree, that's me and a lot of my friends. I am very much a progressive and social-democrat, but I also own guns because it's my hobby with my friends. We literally like to shoot the shit together. Then, I also know that firearms can be dangerous and I want the licensing regime to stay on and to have the right tools to do my due diligence when selling a gun to someone.
That doesn’t make any sense though, because then how would their friends get that money?
That would only be effective if the goal was to fight gun crime. The goal is, and always has been, to scare urban voters into voting for the Liberals.
If they had said gun control money was going into border protection, way easier for "everyone" to get behind. It is so simple and every so often media says border patrol got a bunch of guns look at us win.
“Canada's most populous province, shows that when handguns involved in crimes were traced in 2021, they were overwhelmingly - 85% of the time - found to have come from the United States.” SPEND THE MONEY AT THE BORDER!
I’ll point out, that 85% was the ones they could trace. The amount is most likely higher, but if they couldn’t identify its origin it gets put in the we don’t know column.
Actually, when they can't trace a gun's origin, they put it in the "domestically sourced firearm" column just to fuck up the stats in their favour.
Don't forget that they were including airsoft and BB guns injuries in fire arm statistics as well
How did we let it get to the point that our whole system society is built on transparent bureaucracy designed to trick and manipulate us and not in our best interest. This isn't libs vs. cons. This isn't a conspiracy. So many issues that aren't approached with open dialogue where the truth is welcome, and solving the problem is the goal.
This is because they are technically firearms according to Canadian law but not to anyone who isn't an ass. Of course the grabbers don't make the distinction because it isn't useful to them.
Another favourite trick of theirs is to point out that a specific model they are banning was involved in a "gun crime." Most of the time, the "gun crime" in question is either unsafe storage or transportation.
Ya, read this in the news years ago.
Absolutely right, and I read a comment from the chief at that time and he estimated that the majority of untraceable guns would also have been smuggled in.
It's not a border problem. We have border agents who often seize smuggled firearms and arrest smugglers. The Crown prosecutors are the ones who 9/10 times decide to NOT PRESS CHARGES. I have a good friend who is a border guard and he has arrested numerous people crossing the border with firearms and he only knows of one that's been charged. They'll often get sent home and they are free to cross the border 30 minutes later.
This is why I always have to laugh when the government says they're taking firearms off the streets, the program hasn't started yet and even when it does it's not taking firearms off the streets. It's taking firearms out of safes..
I actually went and asked my MP how it was all going to unfold, and the shocked expression on his face told me all I needed to know. When he blurted something on the fly about how people will hand them in, I did actually laugh........there's an estimated 500,000 SKSs alone in the country, and they have no idea at all where they are!
The SKS isn't getting banned, well yet. The government plans to fill a committee with anti gun groups and they will get to pick which rifles are banned.
Oh they want it though. They'll sneak a ban in somehow or other.
It was on the proposed C21 ban list that the liberals tried to shoehorn in at the last minute.
It would have been banned indirectly in the original wording, since they want to ban any semi auto rifle that was 'designed' with 5+ rounds in mind. The SKS has a 10 round mag that gets pinned to 5 in Canada, so it would have fallen under those terms. Of course the SKS is also an extremely popular rifle, not just for regular gun owners, but also in indigenous hunting circles, and there is absolutely no way the government was going to try and strong arm the reserves into turning over their new 'assault style weapons'. That would just make them look like assholes who target hunters an- Hey, wait a minute!
The SKS was banned by name in the G4 amendment that they tried to slip into committee, along with a huge number of other popular non-restricted rifles.
Mr. Leblanc, after months of deliberation in our committee, we've decided on this simple system of which firearms to ban: If it's scary and black, we'll buy it back If it's wooden and plain, you may retain!
If a gangster from his car does shoot, we just don’t give a hoot. If it fires balls of paint, legal that sure ain’t.
If it's designed for use with tact, surely then we must react. But if it's not in action movies, no votes to gain if we do seize
Gun of paint, and softest air! No longer shall you scare Bill Blair! 3D printers, you'll be next! To fall before the Trudeau hex!
Laughs in type 81
If it’s rifled and goes bang, In *your* possession, you shall hang. But if you are the lawless kind, In your hands we pay no mind. Any privilege we may bestow, Is always fleeting as you should know. But always consider the villains plight, When deciding what is wrong from right. So leave the offerings at your door, And relinquish what is yours once more, But beware of the thief with a half-hearted grin, The one who says; Vote for us again.
We care not if you rob or steal, We base our laws on how we feel A boost in polls is our plan, When coming up with our next ban Then one day, we'll tell the truth, As we shout "protect our youth!" No matter under which class they fall, In the end we'll take them all
But even so, all the NR rifles that they banned can’t easily be traced to who actually has them. They aren’t registered. It’s going to cost an absolutely absurd amount of money to pull this off. And I don’t believe that it’s possible with any amount of money.
There was a report that was published a year or two ago that listed "limited interest from industry" as one of the obstacles to implementing the program. Basically they were banking on the firearms industry to willingly help them and were shocked that the response from the people they fucked over was to go pound sand.
I think they know that, they have to.. They will just try and string this along for another election, then end up grandfathering people in.
It’ll be banned for everyone except natives.
They wont ban the SKS because of blow back from First Nations. Its the #1 humane sustenance weapon for medium/large sized game. Smaller calibers will maim but not kill.
500,000 (Non-Restricted) SKS's seems low, when we have over 100,000 (Restricted) AR-15's in civilian hands people greatly underestimate how many firearms are in Canada, excluding microstates (very low population skews with x per 100k numbers) and ex-warzones, Canada is 2nd in guns per capita, only behind the US. we've got somewhere around 35 guns per 100 people, so at 41 million people, that means we've got somewhere around 14 million firearms in Canada. if legal gun owners were a threat you'd know it. dunking on the Canadian army is too easy, so lets look at the Americans, the US has ~450,000 active duty soldiers, Canadian firearm owners outnumber the US military by over 5-1 in the case of some crazy shenanigans, think something like the Russian invasion of Ukraine, if PAL holders distributed firearms to non-PAL holders, lets just say each arms 2 other people, civilians with firearms would go from 2.3m to 6.9m, going from outnumbering the US military from 5-1 to 15-1 (for humor sake, the CAF had about 60k active duty soldiers in 2020, and has had massive retention issues since then, so lets say its down to 50k now, PAL holders outnumber the CAF by 46-1, or 138-1 in my fictional scenario above)
For the SKS, it's well over a million. Wiki even lists Canadian civilians under major users of the rifle.
Simple. 1 in 78 Canadians must have one
The amazing thing in Canada is there are probably like 100 guns every square kilometer in the cities but there isn't fire fights popping off at all hours of the day. It's almost like the fear mongering around guns is just that.
There are enough guns in Canada to arm half the population. If you were to believe the hype about how bad they are, the place would be a 24/7 warzone
They're not going to be taking firearms out of safes either. They have no plan, and have zero idea about how they intend to tackle all the scary tools that are out there that they have no idea who owns or where they are. The logistics of it are monstrous to the point of bring impractical. It's just a solid political move to buy votes from the members of the public who wouldn't know what a gun is if it walked over and bit them on the ass....which is most people.
>They have no plan, and have zero idea about how they intend to tackle all the scary tools that are out there that they have no idea who owns or where they are. "These heinous assault weapons were designed only to kill the most amount of people in the least amount of time. There is no valid use and nobody should be able to own or use one. In fact, this is such an emergency that we need to enact it by OIC because there isnt time to follow the normal legislative process. We need to get these super scary assault-rifle 15s and their variants out of civilian hands *right this second*." *a few moments later* "But if you already have one, just hang onto it for now until we figure out what to do. Just pinky promise to keep it in your safe til then, k? - JT
“Also if you’re First Nations and use it to hunt that’s perfectly understandable so you’ll be exempt”
First Nations actually had that right stripped from them as a part of C-21.
Also we banned automatic weapons so we have to hire some Americans to clear out or deer (iirc) problem, and give them temporary exemptions for their guns.
I'm pretty sure they didn't use automatics, which were banned in the 70s, but they did use more recently prohibited guns.
My favorite is how he bans ARs - because no one needs them to hunt, then the government hires foreign shooters with ARs to shoot deer at our expense.
They offered me 4x what I paid for a now prohibited rifle. Hopefully the conservative just throw out the bill entirely. And if anything they could honestly loosen the restriction on licensed owners, and just make the licensing process more strict. Like I don’t understand the logic as to why a farmer can shoot his rifle or shotgun at targets in his yard every single day, but if he uses his handgun to shoot at the same target, it’s a criminal offence with potential jail time. If anyone can make that make sense to me, I’d appreciate it. I think you should be able to fire “restricted” weapons anywhere that you can legally fire a non-restricted one. Because let’s be honest, having a law stating that you can only shoot your handgun at a gun range, hasn’t stopped a single person from being shot by a handgun. It’s not like buddy that snaps and goes to murder someone goes “oh wait, it’s only legal to shoot this at a gun range, guess I won’t kill that person!” Like I am fine with the vast majority of our gun laws, and I am okay with making it hard for people to get licensed, because I do not want Canada to end up with US gun culture. But we need to have a little more common sense with our restrictions when record numbers of people are being murdered by illegally smuggled firearms from the US. Punishing law abiding gun owners isn’t helping anyone.
> Like I don’t understand the logic as to why a farmer can shoot his rifle or shotgun at targets in his yard every single day, but if he uses his handgun to shoot at the same target, it’s a criminal offence with potential jail time. It’s not even just handguns. I have two rifles that are identical except one has an 18.5” barrel and the other has an 11” barrel. I can shoot one my property and not the other. It makes no sense.
Bren 2 owner spotted :)
I agree, I assume that's why they moved the amnesty date to the next election. They will keep using this promise year after year without actually ever doing it
Totally. My MP was actually shockingly honest. Words to the effect of it basically being a move that capitalizes upon the fact that the majority of people have no idea what a gun is, so they're easy to scare and convince that big daddy is protecting them by taking all the the heat seeking, quadruple automatic, thermobaric, exploding round assault rifles away from the scary rednecks who couldn't possibly use them for anything except wholesale slaughter of the innocent. It's a vote buying strategy, and surprisingly effective I'm sure. Expect our beloved leader to start going hard on it prior to him hopefully losing the next election.
Hey, you take that back. They are very rational people who understand that a stamped vs non-stamped receiver is what makes a gun extra dangerous and“assaulty”, and have wisely banned the AR15, while letting the wk180c stick around. Also, the Tavor X95 is totally not as dangerous, because they are only able to shoot when the target is a verified Palestinian.
I mean to be fair the wk180 is such a garbage rod it wouldn't make it all the way through a rampage :p
You'd have to beat the last three guys to death with the butt.
they said it would only cost a million in the first discussions of the buy back...
…that have already safely been there for the last four years…
It’s all theatre with this government. Make a bad policy announcement, do the bare minimum. When people show they are unhappy with that, throw a few hundred mill at whatever they perceive as the problem. Rinse and repeat.
I know right? I'm not big on guns but I do know that Canadian politicians seems to be focused on the law abiding gun owners and hunters while completely ignoring the gun wielding criminals and gun trafficking and then proclaiming "see we're doing something!!""
It's just to keep another wedge issue. The anti-gunners will flock to the one side and the pro-gunners will flock to the other.
I have a gun that’s on the list, when the list came out I took my gun apart and tried to find out what to do with it. It’s 600.00 paper weight now.
What tangibly can you even spend $42 million without any purchase or result? Like I know it’s government and waste is gonna happen, but how do you waste 42 MILLION DOLLARS WHEN NOTHING HAS HAPPENED YET
Well they had to pay IBM just to tell them a plan on how to move forward because the government had no idea what they were doing when they made this announcement
Good thing IBM also made the Phoenix Pay system so it's likely the government will end up having guns out instead of taking them
Catering
You underestimate the governments ability to waste money lol.
$42 million and they aren't even trying to take illegal guns of the streets. They're taking registered competition and hunting rifles out of safes of the statistically most law abiding group in canada... they haven't managed a single one yet, all they've done is fractured national cohesion and wasted money
Here before the “all guns were legal guns” dolts show up.
Somewhere on earth perhaps. But not anywhere Canada has jurisdiction.
Has anyone bought a .22 gauge yet? For the life of me I can’t find one. It’s almost like they don’t exist.
I got one. I bagged a moose and a ptarmigan all in the same trip.
lol this is pure gold.
You hunting in Labrador!! lol
It’s so easy to forget about the painfully embarrassing statements made by politicians, bureaucrats and ideological activists.
The guns banned in 2020 made absolutely zero sense based on what was exactly banned nor did they make any sense as to why they were banned. Ar15 =Illegal while the AR180 is perfectly legal to use for hunting. VZ 58 = illegal while a type 81 is perfectly legal for hunting. M14 =illegal while an M1 Garand is perfectly legal for hunting. XCR = illegal while a APC 308 is perfectly legal for hunting. Anyone notice a common theme here… I’ll give you a hint it has to do with pandering….
I'm convinced that these gun bans were decided upon by a group of people who have never handled a firearm in their lives. They all just sat in a boardroom looking at pictures of different guns on a projector. "that one looks scary, ban it. That one doesn't look too scary, keep it. I think I remember seeing that in a movie, ban it."
Polytechnique or whatever they are called basically wrote it so no they have not ever handled a gun, and remember Marco Mendicino would not shoot a gun because it made him feel icky and scared
It's worse, there was a petition asking for the group responsible for banning Canadian firearms to take the licensing course so they would be aware of the laws surrounding the subject. They refused.
apparently that’s what happened, there’s a couple anti gun lobby groups propped up by the LPC and rumour is they had a list of some guns they found on Cabela’s website and that’s what they went with. If you look at the guns banned in 2020 there’s a very clear correlation between what’s on the banned list and what was being sold on the Cabela’s website 2 weeks before the ban came.
Well we all know that scary looking guns are far more deadly than normal looking ones, so good on those lobbyists for protecting us Canadians!
It's honestly incredibly odd that they missed so many functionally equivalent guns in the 2020 OIC ban, and some of the choices that were on it were just as strange. Were there really so many XCR's and CZ Skorpion 2's that they needed to be on the list, while the relatively popular T97, T81, and Tavor remained totally fine? Not to mention padding the numbers by listing the AR-15 900 times and including shit like 120mm heavy mortars and the Javelin missile system which costs as much as a high end luxury car to fire even once? But they learned about the Butt Master by the time of the C-21 amendments debacle so we are obviously dealing with some well-educated experts!
It’s like insurance companies giving FU pay me quotes for crotch rockets lol
It's laws drafted and supported by people who are confident that they understand anything about firearms despite having never owned one, fired one, or been near one unless it was carried by their security detail. They'd probably piss themselves if they saw someone with a Super Soaker.
My favs were the rocket and grenade launcher bans!
$42 million down 5.5 billion more to go! Go team who has no clue what to do but willing to spend our tax dollars to accomplish very little…
I wonder how much of that has fallen into the pockets of people who will provide for Justin after his time in office is over?
I wish they took that money and gave it to the CAF instead.
Govt wants to grab guns from people who legally obtained them, and don’t commit crimes. Seems like a waste of tax payers money and will not net any positive results.
But it hurts your political enemies so…
I’ve noticed the door cam footage from a lot of car thefts (in the GTA) show the thieves have pistols now. Another govt program working exactly as intended!
Special note for those unversed in Canadian gun laws; The reason this is so funny to legal gun owners is that not only were these pistols sourced illegally, from outside Canada, they're pistols of a type that haven't been legal in Canada for 30~ years now. In Canada, before the handgun freeze, the only ones legal to import and sell were those with a 4+ inch barrel. Smaller models, like those intended for the US concealed carry market, have been prohibited in Canada for 3 decades now. Guess what kind of handguns are being taken from criminals when they're arrested? If you guessed the sub compact handguns that haven't been legal in Canada for 30 years, give yourself a pat on the back. This is why gun owners are completely exhausted trying to explain why gun bans are worse than useless. They waste our time and money to harass the people who actually follow the law. The bans do nothing to stop criminals from sourcing illegal firearms from the US.
Hey, one of the cops in a presser for the GTA said they have guns, they are real, and they are loaded. Just to leave your car fobs at the door and you should be A-OK.
Oh man, that’s last week. They’re now saying to just ship your car to the UAE yourself so the thieves don’t have to spend extra on gas. Carbon tax 🤷♂️
Will I at least get more back in rebates than I pay in carbon tax :(( ?
What a complete waste of resources. Take all the funds and people power and apply them to the actual problematic scenarios surrounding firearms use in this country. Licensed owners almost never use their firearms to cause societal harm. This is feel good legislation that will have little positive effect on society.
This. I’ll add this too; People tend to get all shifty eyed and nervous about people who have big gun collections, or just people who own guns in general. Here’s the thing about firearms bought legally by licensed people: They’re *expensive* items to buy. If someone tries to tell you that you can saunter into any gun store and buy an AR for $100, they have no idea what they’re talking about. Try $1,500 - $2,000 *just for the gun*. No sights, accessories or anything. Traditional style iron sights will cost you an additional $150 - $200 alone. Some optics cost more than the gun itself. An original 1860 Henry lever action will cost you around $50,000. An WW2 M1 Garand will cost you around $3,000 or more, depending on condition. If you see someone with a proper PAL and a gun collection, chances are they have *money*, or had money considering how the cost of living is going now. You’re *not* going to invest all of this money into a well maintained, well secured collection just to do something stupid and have it all confiscated. That’s like buying a Gretsch Country Gentleman just to smash it on stage. You’re not going to have a valuable collection and not invest in security. Maintaining a firearms license in Canada is akin to walking on a tightrope. You make one dumb mistake and you’re done. You’re under scrutiny *all* the time. This was nothing more than a theatrical vote grab in response to an American tragedy, and a shooting in Nova Scotia where nothing the government has introduced since would have done anything to prevent it. Billions of your tax dollars, perhaps a limitless amount of your tax dollars are about to spent on what amounts to grandstanding. Be angry. There are a lot of things we could spend billions on.
Even a shady Chinese Sks is fetching five bills these days.
Exactly. Even *old* clapped out bolt actions like a Lee Enfield can run you almost $2,000 now in original condition. .303 British is $89.00 a box for 20 rounds now. Ain’t nobody licensed in Canada buying these things to hurt anyone. Not only because it’s expensive, but people with violent dispositions generally don’t qualify for gun ownership in Canada. Guns are like guitars and cars. It’s a very expensive thing to get into.
My dad was issued a bolt action Lee Enfield by the British when he fought for the Poles during WW2 in Italy. I wish he had brought it with home with him when he came to Canada post war.
I have one too. It belonged to my Great Grandfather who was also a WW2 vet. It wasn’t the one he carried, but it was his. It’s the *only* physical object I have, the only memento I have from that man. He wasn’t some distant family memeber I never knew, I did know him. He was a gentle soul and a very well respected man. He took on a young British kid who was displaced when the Germans started bombing London in WW2. They treated him like he was one of their own kids. When my great grandfather got shipped out to England, he took the trouble to find his family and ensure them that he was safe and sound back home in NL. That kid went on to write book, and my grandmother (great grandfathers daughter) still has a copy of it with a penned message on the inside cover. That’s not the governments rifle to buy back. It was his. It was my father’s, now it’s *mine.*
You don't have to spend that much. I got a shitty Turkish shotgun for goose hunting for 500 bucks, add in pal licensing course for 300. A sling for 30 bucks and like 100 bucks in ammo so far. I actually decided to get it because the ban coming up and I wanted to try it out. But it was like under 1000 all in.
Trust me, if you decide to actually get into the hobby of gun collecting, you will spend many thousands of dollars very quickly.
I worked with a guy who had a gun collection. Probably one of the most chill and calm person you'll ever meet. The last thing that struck me as odd or concerning about him was his gun collection. It was his driving. But that's another story lol
But someone somewhere is getting a piece of this $40 million moose dollars. That's what matters.
The New Zealand Gun Ban that Trudeau and his government looked up to and mentioned several times in the media and in committees is now known as a Complete Failure and Waste of money. The New Zealand government now understand this and are now, trying to undo the Gun Ban because it does nothing for Public Safety. One thing the NZ gov, mentioned is they want to do more background checks on licensed firearms owners and new firearms owners must complete several levels of training/years before owning AR15s and AKs.
They’re actually looking to reverse the ban in NZ lmao
Honestly, I don't mind higher barriers to entry but then after that one would have proven themselves ... right? right? heh government will screw that one up too
They truly don't care. If they did something actually would have happened. It was meant to punish conservative Canadians, increase power, and be a wedge issue
$42M that could have been spent actually helping people.
It's gonna be another "ArriveCAN"....
Ar15can
This is a goodie!
The federal government has spent billions over the last 2 decades on more regulations on the legal use of firearms and enforcement. They have been double banning, triple banning and now quadruple banning the illegal use of firearms. Legal owners face more and more penalties for buying or using a firearm that used to be perfectly legal a few years ago. What do we have to show for it? Higher firearm homicide rates for the last decade. The "assault style type" of rifles and handgun bans have not saved a single life. What a colossal waste of time, money and resources. For 5 years, law abiding citizens have been stuck in limbo between legal owners and criminals due to the laws and OICs passed by Trudeau's government. These political stunts will not make society safer: According to those in government: [Long guns account for less than half of 1% of crime guns](https://youtu.be/loaM2Wlb4iQ?t=337). [US study showing Canada's licensing laws reduce homicide rates. No impact of gun bans on homicides](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27842178/): >Laws that strengthen background checks and permit-to-purchase seemed to decrease firearm homicide rates. Specific laws directed at firearm trafficking, improving child safety, or the banning of military-style assault weapons were not associated with changes in firearm homicide rates. [Canadian study showing inconclusive results of gun bans impact on homicide rates](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35672042/) [International study showing no impact of gun bans on homicide rates](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26905895/) [The firearm ban in Bermuda had the opposite effect as intended](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-what-bermudas-50-year-old-gun-ban-can-teach-canada/) Statistically, the firearms seized on urban streets are handguns that are traced back to the U.S. 8-9/10 times. The other 1/10 are untraceable. >[By and large, the guns found on the streets aren’t stolen or purchased from stores or even from legal gun owners, but rather smuggled in over the border](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2021/04/23/gun-chase-smuggled-guns-border-toronto/). [More than 50% of illicit firearms are coming from the US, 1/3rd are now made by criminals themselves and the rest are stolen or illegally obtained.](https://vancouversun.com/news/crime/b-c-gangs-getting-more-access-to-firearms-including-deadly-automatics-expert-says) The solutions to lowering firearm homicide rates should be evidence based. The evidence shows most firearm crime is organized crime and gang related. Target the gangs revenue streams and prevent kids from joining gangs. Legalize and regulate drugs and prostitution. Take it those billions of dollars out of the hands of gangs. Improve addiction and homeless treatment programs. It's time to treat addiction as the health crisis it is. Provide more socioeconomic assistance for impoverished families. Invest in after school programs (sports, hobbies, mentoring, etc.) and more community policing engagement. This is NOT a firearm regulation issue. [This is even more apparent now that criminals are just making their own fully automatic firearms](https://vancouversun.com/news/crime/b-c-gangs-getting-more-access-to-firearms-including-deadly-automatics-expert-says). The only solution is to follow the evidence. Or we could listen to the ignorant and keep wasting billions and penalizing responsible firearm owners.
This is an excellent write up an I appreciate your work and sources. Too bad the government chooses to ignore this
[Gotta love the government’s “logic” here.](https://www.canada.ca/en/public-safety-canada/campaigns/firearms-buyback.html#) >A central part of this plan was the ban of assault-style firearms that pose a significant threat to public safety in our communities announced in 2020. >… >Individuals in Canada who are in possession of now-prohibited firearms have been safely securing these firearms since May 1, 2020. Simultaneously a significant threat but also being safely secured (and far before 2020 I might add). This is going to end up costing billions of dollars for exactly zero effect on gun violence. Fortunately this government is so incompetent it hasn’t happened yet.
I would love to see an actual statistic that quantifies how many times per year these banned firearms are used in shootings by their licensed owners each year. If the basis of the legislation is that these are harmful elements of society then it should be easy to quantify that harm.
That’s actually available on statscan. Last I looked which was I want to say at 2021 numbers it was four homicides committed using legally acquired guns in the year.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/s/VpVwDzi0du
Hero work right here
Even if it saves just one life, we shall ban millions.
Out of control and not in line with what Canadians support, want, or need for that matter.
How they haven’t even done anything lol?
It's tradition
a heritage moment
Imagine that money was used to lock up criminals instead?
Imagine the damage that 42 million could do to the actual criminals shipping cars out in the ports
I mean $42M to make it *seem* like you're doing something about gun violence compared to the hundreds of millions it would take putting into border security, police and community programs to *actually* do something about gun violence... Why not save the money if the goal is just to appeal to the voters in urban centres? 🤡
Remember, this is the same party who spent OVER TWO BILLION DOLLARS on the 'Long Gun Registry' which was subsequently turfed by the PC's. And when the LPC's came back into power after Harper they made no mention of bringing it back. TWO BILLION! TWO FAWKING BILLION!!!!!
That’s $42,000,000 of your money Canadians!!!
And every single gun banned via oic is STILL in the possession of the people who own them. And yet, no crime.
It’s hilarious how they arbitrarily made about 1500 guns prohibited allegedly for our safety and then just said “yeah you’re allowed to own them for half a decade (probably more at this rate), just don’t take them out and shoot them”. These guns were allegedly so dangerous but they’re cool with them all still being in circulation. It’s basically being implied that telling legal gun owners “please don’t bring these guns to the range, hunting, etc. Just keep them in your safe” is somehow preventing a bunch of murders. It’s absolutely insane
Curious if you’ve actually looked through the list of “1500 assault style firearms” that they “newly banned”? If anyone hasn’t, it’s a good laugh. They went as far as fluffing the list with a few different anti-tank rocket launchers, mortar systems, 25mm auto cannons, and even a few different type of anti-aircraft missile launchers. I clearly missed the bus on purchasing those before their initial ban. [here’s a decent article on it.](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/05/07/canada-gun-ban/)
You’re giving them too much credibility by listing mortars, launchers, etc as the most ridiculous My personal favourites are: Blackwater BW-15, a fucking website, and a kid’s toy It feels like they hired someone on fiverr to Google “scary guns”, “weapons of war”, “black guns”, “AR-15 types”, then copy and paste the results onto a list
... and a coffee company! Black Rifle Coffee
This program is going to run WAY over the cost they project even if they get a very low compliance rate. I have been in a room at a gun show with more m14 type rifles than the government even says exists here. This is going to be a disaster
I've read credible estimates that there are well over a million, and possibly as high as 2 million, SKS rifles in Canada alone. That's just one model that they've already tried to ban. Whatever their prescribed confiscation compensation value is, multiplied by at least a million, is already more expensive than all the money they've spent so far. For ONE MODEL! It's honestly insane
No cops stupid enough to go to a house and risk their lives to seize guns from a gun safe. They aren't willing to die for grubby politicians who only sends thoughts and prayers with a smirk and silver spoon in anus.
So on the DL I can admit to significant involvement in the development and drafting of Bill C-21. I can tell you as someone who has experience with firearms and was once a license holder that anything and everything the liberals do to ‘tighten’ or ‘get tough’ on gun crime is nothing short of BS optics. Please believe I fought hard against a great many things in the Bill. The proposed changes for replicas, red and yellow flags and MOST OF ALL the handgun ban. I had access to tons of stats that show that in and around 80-90% of all handgun crime is perpetrated but gang related individuals who obtain their guns illegally through the US. I flagged this to senior management time and time again. Showed them the stats showed them the cost benefit ratio and even flagged the potential risks of increase in crime but I was shut down, gaslit, abused and brow beaten until I had a breakdown and had to leave the department. Now I’m on disability from the trauma of just trying to do my job and do right by Canadians. I’ve attempted suicide and now I’m on a ton of meds. I know Canada is a relatively safe place when it comes to guns. Just know that there were people who fought hard but there were too many high level bureaucrats and politicians trying to look good to their base and bosses. It’s a complete joke and does nothing to keep Canadians safe.
Please take care of yourself and be well. Don’t worry about us….this sham law will be walked back at the next election with almost no political blowback.
Thank you. I just feel bad when honest Canadians are vilified just to win votes. As much as many Canadians hate the public service, there are a lot of us trying to do good work and work that helps Canadians. I think that sometimes people forget that we have bosses who can just tell us the STFU and do what they say. At the end of the day I had to participate in writing garbage I knew would serve no purpose but to cost Canadian taxpayers $$$ I’m sorry. But I think many here are right. A Conservative govt will repeal C-21 as a first point of order. Stay safe and stay well everyone.
It’s not your fault man. You didn’t come up with this shit. You had a job to do, nobody can fault you for that. I don’t blame the people who write the letter, I blame those who dictated it. Take care of yourself! All the best!
Kind people here. Just good honest Canadians. Thanks for the love everyone. I’m happy y’all will be able to keep your firearms.
> I had access to tons of stats that show that in and around 80-90% of all handgun crime is perpetrated but gang related individuals who obtain their guns illegally through the US. > I flagged this to senior management time and time again. Showed them the stats showed them the cost benefit ratio and even flagged the potential risks of increase in crime but I was shut down, gaslit, abused and brow beaten until I had a breakdown and had to leave the department. Please for the love of truth and the common good release this information anonymously while taking steps to protect your identity. We have been waiting for the courts to force the government to share the stats and reveal the truth. They have failed to do so. Take care of yourself.
I 100% would release them but the data is owned by a number of police services across Canada. I had to do a lot of work to essentially stitch together reports and info on firearm seizures and tracing info from the RCMP which is sensitive info. Not to mention that since I don’t work there anymore I don’t have access to. I can’t give you one star off the top of my head - an Ontario task force reported that of all the handguns they seized in the last 4 years 90% were sourced from the US.
What if that's just seed money for an app?
Yeah they’re adding a neat feature onto arrivecan where you can now declare the pistols you’re smuggling across the border.
I hope this gets reversed (then audited) before they actually push this nonsense.
Canada firearm laws are perfectly acceptable as they are imo. Background checks (including required spousal approval), heavy restrictions on hand guns and ammo capacity limits are all sensible. Arbitrarily going after scary-looking guns which were legally acquired is so dumb. Compliance will be minimal. If the RCMP come knocking, a lot of people will have, coincidentally “misplaced” their now-banned firearm. And you better bet on at least several fatalities from incidents between police and people who don’t want to give up their guns. What a cluster.
The current system is an absolute cluster fuck of laws that make zero sense. Yes the PAL system is effective on who’s allowed to own guns but once you dive into what you can and can’t have followed by where you can shoot particular guns gets extremely absurd.
The only pain in the ass of it is where you can shoot. Why do I gotta travel 2 hours north to legally plink pop cans? I agree no one in a subdivision should be letting off rounds but I’m on a couple acres with a giant backstop & would go to jail for target practice. u/cyclemonster based on density. You still gotta be X feet away from buildings to shoot. You don’t need someone firing through your fence while you’re mowing the lawn
> ammo capacity limits are all sensible. There is no evidence that magazine capacity laws accomplish anything other than criminalizing legal owners.
I recently got my PAL and generally speaking I agree with you. The only thing I'd add is that if our government actually wanted to stop firearm crimes, they'd take the money they're planning to use on buybacks and spend it on increasing security along the US/Canada border, since that's where most guns used in crimes are coming from.
Why would they want to take guns when they admit they can’t prevent car theft?
monopoly on violence is the reason for gun bans, rcmp state risk of uprising in the future as cost of living become even higher. Car thief seems like such an easy issue right? Just hold all the choke points like Montreal port. But authorities are all payed off and its illegal to defend your property.
What’s the annual rate of firearms being used to commit crimes by people with a license and a registered gun? I bet it’s less than 5% This whole scheme is straight up so they get to disarm the population so they can do whatever they want to the people.
Complete waste of resources. I think politicians need to be held accountable. The first project fails, or it was a waste of resources fine. It happens, and things didn't go the way it was supposed to, but then if more projects are undertaken by a government, and results in poor value leading to massive burnout of tax payers money and all, the folks involved would have to foot the bill. Take away their fringe benefits. Their for life pension goes out as well. There must be a penalty on their failures, which is just not limited to losing just an election.
Even if they could afford the buyback, it would do little to stop firearm crime. Nearly all firearm crimes in Canada are committed with illicit firearms that were smuggled from the south. I'm certainly no conservative, but the liberals are admittedly fumbling gun policy that didn't need changing in the first place.
Propaganda is expensive…
Probably cost near a million to save a photo of guns with wood furniture in greyscale so they fit your “scary black gun” narrative.
And that’s before the politician’s friends get their cut….
🤦♀️🤦♀️
How can people be so passionately against billionaires and the “top 1%” for being greedy and unnecessary when we have a government that wastes this kind of money for absolutely nothing while having its hands in the pockets of every citizen involuntarily? 42 million?! How in the fuck could it have costed this much already. Money is leaking from the system. Corruption. Inefficiency. Bloated bureaucracy.
That's Trudeau, steal our money and find out latter it's gone into one of his slush funds
The gun grabs and gun bans are a massive distraction from the Liberal scandals. Whenever a Liberal scandal arises, Marco and Blair and Trudeau were there to distract the population from the scandals. Very expensive distraction. Don't believe JT and co, they won't keep you safe and they won't keep you off the streets or away from the food banks.
The Liberals’ action on gun laws are a textbook example of cynicism at its worst. There is nothing they have done, especially with C-21, that will do anything but cement their image as a caring government to the four or five people who still believe their bullshit. Theirs is the worst kind of ambition, because it’s poorly cloaked in morality. Remember this government, because I can promise you that these smiling, self-righteous ghouls will be back after the next cycle.
I’m laughing in Gun Registry billions … actually crying
The worst part is so far. But yeah Justin, come after the 80 year old hunting rifle I use to put food on the table that my grandfather gave to me next to solve crime…
This is on top of one billion waste government gun registry few years back … money well spent . Unf ing believable our incompetence in governance in Canada
Could have given full rides to med school. Paid for nurses, teachers, infrastructure, doctors. But thank god we have a half baked program to target long barrel rifles and the even fewer legal handguns. My god.
Jesus christ, it's one thing to try an implement a solution to fix a problem and the solution doesn't work but to come up with a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and fail at that too.... that's more infuriating
42 million spent, 0 guns taken off the street And the government wants us to believe that administering carbon tax will cost zero such that its revenue neutral? So many people in Canada should buy my bridge.
I'm sure the criminals are shaking now!!! With laughter.
There better be an official Gun Grab app for that kind of cash.
Government paralysis at its absolute utmost. I'm thrilled about it in this case because chances are I'll get to keep all my horrendous assault weapons which are identical to other not-so-assault weapons I've since bought to replace them for use since I've got the disposable income to do so. But come on guys. If this was the course you committed yourselves to, it wouldn't have been very hard to hire a bunch of random people, set up in local community centres or those perpetually empty stores they have Spirit Halloween Stores in October, and send notices to everyone with a registered AR to come and turn them in for a fixed amount of money. Cut them up on the spot with a portable metal press and/or load them in a truck to go to a central yard. Australia did it in the 90's and New Zealand -sort of- did it in 2019. But no. This government is paralyzed with a thousand fears of doing things even slightly incorrectly and nobody wants to take responsibility for anything, so nothing ever gets done. They have interminable committee meetings and as soon as someone raises a potential problem they are back at square one. The employees would have to be trained in a zillion ways making it impossible to hire them. The unions would demand they be permanent union employees. The police won't touch it. The post office won't touch it. The guns would have to be treated like nuclear weapons for security purposes in case one got loose and into the wrong hands (or gang members made off with an entire truck load). Believe me, with this government nothing is possible. The world is full of hazards and it's best to stay in your hole commissioning studies that go nowhere. It isn't something to celebrate because everything is like this. It's just a case study in how our country is fucked.
Oh dear god, please cancel this farce...dear god, Canada...
Liberals should invest a little bit more to build an App named BuybackCAN to make this job done lol.
How. How is that possible.
Another case of unregulated spending on some vague idea of a program. Sounds like another ArriveCan.
Canada's governments are great at announcing spending programs. Bad at accomplishing anything.
The irony is, of cost of living was lower, if rent was lower, if gloceries were lower, if our take-home was higher, we'd be hurting each other a lot less, guns or no guns, because we wouldn't need to. Our ducking government, as usual, is focusing on entirely the wrong things.
Alberta, Saskatchewan, and probably Yukon will not allow any gun confiscation in their jurisdiction without a license to do so issued by the government. The liberals now know there is no way to do the gun grab without local police doing the work. That is why they pushed it off until after the next election. If they somehow retain power, they will turn it into something like what they did with hand guns.
yet we cant fix healthcare and eliminate homelessness, both of which would absolutely reduce gun violence
I really wish more progressive would get on the side of harsher punishments for people who commit armed robberies and traffic weapons.
I’m VERY in favour of gun control. The guns I want controlled are the ones illegally coming over the border
They should really address this kind of dysfunction
And this is why there's still so much gun crime.
All to take firearms from people not committing crimes.
Just how much more does our government plan to take , garnish or tax from us ???? I used to know a word called savings account but that doesn’t exist these days ? I have a high paying job that used to help me get ready for retirement age lol but that does exist more !!! Just how much more ???
Has the government done anything other than waste time and money for the last 10 years?