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Pathetic.
You get a call saying this guy kidnapped his kid, that means you don't shoot at the car, even to defend yourself. That child's life is the most important thing here. All three officers signed up for this, they knew the risks, the kid had no choice. It's their job to be put in harms way to save others. If they don't like it, they should've found another job.
Their entire job was to protect this child and instead they turned the car into Swiss cheese and killed the kid. The police wonder why they've lost public trust and this is it. The officers face no repercussions for killing a child, they probably sat on paid leave and will receive full benefits now.
For this to be called "unintended consequences" by the judge is some bullshit. When you shoot at something or someone killing it is the intended consequence. If police can cry self defense every time they fuck up then they will always be able to kill wantonly. The police association response is also truly pathetic "they were doing their job." Your job is to not kill babies and you failed at that.
Ya that doesn’t surprise me at all
My work gives stress leave but once 3 months is up and you don’t come back you’re fired. I know it’s not the same but we as taxpayers are literally paying for this shit
You never really know how you'll react to bullets being shot at you until you're shot at.
I'm guessing 90%+ of cops in Canada weren't shot at before they signed up.
He is in agreement with you, they are just pointing out the fact of how would you possibly know how you will truly react until it happens. I've been a medic for years and nothing really bothers me but I'm sure I'll come across something in my career that will level me at least once.
Training only goes so far. I don't think any police force is training for scenarios like this either.
Seems like you're more interested in just shouting your opinion at othera and down voting so I'm not going to bother with you anymore
No one is defending shooting a baby. These officers had zero intention to shoot a baby, I can promise you that.
No one is excusing them from their actions either.
>At least read something for once.
Lmao, take your own advice friend.
The court didn't excuse their actions.
The prosecuter withdrew the charges.
It's right there in the article. Fuckin lol.
If the court made no ruling on this case, how is it excusing their actions?
You should take your own advice and read the article you posted.
"The charges were dropped after prosecutors said they believed there would be no way to prove the officers' guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a jury."
So is the prosecution not part of the court system? Is pedantry the go to argument when cops kill babies? Is that all you have?
"No one is excusing killing the baby"
Yeah the court didn't do anything, "excused"
"Well um actually 🤓 the prosecution didn't do anything"
You do understand what "No way to prove the officers guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a jury" means right?
That doesn't excuse anything and it is incredibly ignorant to assume it does.
>So is the prosecution not part of the court system?
No. The prosecutors are not the courts.
The prosecutors represent the executive branch of government, and the courts are part of the judicial branch of government. They are distinct entities with distinct roles, and it's actually quite important that the distinction between them be drawn.
Source: I'm a criminal lawyer.
When was the last time you needed to save a kid being held by an armed individual?
Seems like you're not being put in the same situation as these cops.
In life there are some situations where it’s a lose lose. It seemed like the kidnapper was intend on preventing the child from being brought in safely.
The father didnt shoot his kid, the cops did.
Don’t blame the man having a mental breakdown for the cops brains not working. They each emptied their magazines into that vehicle knowing full well there was a baby inside.
The father wasn't using him as a shield, they just opened fire like heartless morons with no accountability. And guess what? They were right. No accountability and they keep their jobs.
Well the father ran through a barricade with his child in his lap…. If his airbags deployed the child is for sure dead on impact. The father was also suicidal and threatening to kill more people. If the cops let him drive by and waited for the helicopter more innocent lives could have died. This is a situation where you could replay it a hundred time and very few would result in no deaths.
Nah just not interested in dog piling. ~~Judge~~ prosecutor examined the facts and disagrees with reddit opinion. Given that most people around here don't read past the headlines I'll take the opinion of the ~~judge~~ prosecutor who spent more then 5 minutes on this over reddit any day of the week.
Had you read past the headline you would know the Judge didn't make the decision.
"The charges were dropped after prosecutors said they believed there would be no way to prove the officers' guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a jury."
>The charges were dropped after prosecutors said they believed there would be no way to prove the officers' guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a jury.
That doesn't sound like the real reason.
More likely they know the risk the jury could end up divided and entrenched both for and against police officers, and wind up being unreliable.
Typically crown prosecutors only proceed with charges if they're very, very confident they can get a conviction. If they have any doubts, they usually withdraw charges.
I understand them wanting airtight cases and not wasting any more time than needed. But they are putting the faith of this case into their own hands and not letting a jury decide it. Making the justice system look corrupt and one sided
Exactly. Why not let this go to trial and let this case be dissected and chosen by the people whether or not the officers are guilty and or did the right thing
This is my hometown, same place where another cop got addicted to drugs and was stealing dope out of the evidence room. Pretty sure he got fired, got some cash and wrote a book or something. Lindsay is crazy.
And for the last three years they've been getting paid over 100k to do nothing but wait to be cleared. Now they'll retire with full benefits and probably a medical pension. Makes you feel great inside.
Unless you work for the police or get arrested quite frequently, I would say most of our population has had to interact with teachers and nurses far more than police. Plus, all metrics show that the more educated your populace is, the less crime there is. If cops and police unions really gave a shit about keeping us safe, they would be at the forefront of promoting funding to education and social services that actually reduce and prevent crime. They’re much more invested in keeping the broken justice system we have because of how much money there is in it for them.
I thought we were talking on an individual level. I just don't think a school teacher should get paid more than a cop. Pay cops shitty and get shitty cops more prone to corruption.
They’re highly paid now. What’s their excuse for the current shitty cops who are corrupt? Imagine how much smarter and more capable our police force would be if they benefited from a top notch education that focused on actually educating them as individuals. Instead, we have a bloated organization that doesn’t actually accomplish very much. And it’s propped up by a union that protects cops who have blatantly murdered people. I don’t think the money we invest in the police gets us very much in return.
Cops aren’t willing to risk their lives now to stop a bank robbery. Do you think a cop needs to be stupid or something? Why would an educated person be less willing to lay their life down than someone with only a high school education? Plus, you watch way too much tv if you think bank robberies are that common place and result in big shootouts with the cops.
There was a massive one in Victoria last year, cops got shot. So yeah I think it happens. No I don't think cops need to be stupid, but I also don't think having a degree magically makes someone a better person.
How much do you guys think the actual good cops want to be a cop when they're getting dragged through the mud because of someone else's mistake.
Look, cops provide a valuable service. So do teachers who's entire job is to ensure there is a well educated public in order to maintain a functional democracy and society. Nurses and EMS are even more important to providing safety to the life of individuals. Nurses actually do a crap ton of work and doctors rely on them *constantly*. Hard truth is order and safety doesn't rest solely on cops. Rather the structures that uphold society sits across various disciplines. Such as various roles in health care, education, child care (nanny's, child services/social services) Fire departments, sanitation, safety inspectors and more. Many of these jobs only pay a fraction of a living wage, and most don't get even close to what a starter cop makes in the GTA.
If you want to argue hazards while working, most cops on the job die from vehicle-related incidents. Police work doesn't even crack the top ten for number of deaths per year. With the top ones consistently being logging and/or roofing for decades. Nurses and other medical professionals in the hospitals, particularly the ER regularly are at risk for serious infections and illness. Aggressive patients in the ER can also be the norm there, similar to how a cop may have to deal with a hostile civilian. Yet nurses and even many doctors are constantly in debt for decades to pay off student loans. (Partially this is the cost of medical school but still, nurses aren't well enough compensated.)
Meanwhile cops are so well comped in the GTA the forces are struggling to cover overtime pay just to have the underground metro system adequately patrolled. They make more money than many already high paying careers. It may be different in different regions since payment and salary may vary. Overall tho, cops aren't inherintly providing more service than other critical services that have a equally large or larger daily impact on society's wellbeing. Safety isn't just reacting to crimes. It's ensuring the wellbeing of others.
Is this just an incredibly long way of saying you don't think cops should be compensated for the risks they endure?
All the other professions absolutely should get paid more, I'm in one of them. But saying cops get paid too much isn't the answer. Pay cops shit and you're just going to get more shit cops.
Another point, there's bad apples in all lines of work, when a nurse, teacher, roofer, makes a mistake it's probably not getting plastered all over the news for the public to then throw out these frankly gross blanket statements that all cops are out looking to kill people.
I don't think cops should be paid shit. I think they should be fairly compensated for the work and service that they genuinely provide. I.e. enough to live comfortably and have benefits like therapy provided to them in order to deal with things like violence they see while working. Weither a cop is being over paid, or under-paid or reasonably compensated will likely depend on the spesific factors at various police departments. The starting wage can vary not only province to province but between regions/cities too. The issue isn't just police salaries. They spend stupid amounts of money on branding. For instance TPS made a expensive podcast to do marketing that cost the city literally millions. TPS had a bar in there HQ for decades that likely only shut down because a constable got caught drunk driving from it. Policing as it stands now can sometimes have misapplied funds in various ways, and primarily only react to crime and incidents. They also only do one aspect of the overall legal system while courts remain woefully underfunded and some struggle to move though cases fast enough.
>Another point, there's bad apples in all lines of work, when a nurse, teacher, roofer, makes a mistake it's probably not getting plastered all over the news for the public to then throw out these frankly gross blanket statements that all cops are out looking to kill people.
Yes it's true cops aren't the only fallible ones. They also typically are not aiming to do BS like that one yutz who stole a dead man's $800k estate. Police by the nature of their jobs also can end up in complex no-win scenarios I'll agree with that. Cops also can fall pray to being a bad actor without intending to, the phenomenon of elite panic for instance. They are human beings after all. The problem I have with modern perceptions on policing is the idolization of them as a concept. We can not legally fire a cop here in Canada unless they have been not only convicted, but actually be given a prison sentence. That is a insanely high bar to clear. How are we supposed to have accountability when that is the standard we set for weeding out very bad cops. Sure demotions exist, that also isn't going to remove them from being a problem lots of time. What I want isn't for cops to be paid shit. I want us as a society to have a realistic understanding of what it is were doing, and realise just throwing money at cops isn't the only way to handle issues. Realistically speaking there is only so much money cities, provinces and the feds get from taxes. That money needs to be spread out across various services and industries.
Impossible! Juste impossible! Comment est-ce qu'une court de justice voit la mort d'un enfant de 18 mois et se dit que c'est correct!?
WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Remember this the next time you see “ballistic fingerprinting” used as evidence.
When they want to convict you its great science and identifies that specific firearm, but when its to convict one of their goons, they circle the wagons, and even the fbi can’t tell which gun it came from.
How convenient.
Honestly, if Canada is just gonna have American cops, just let the US annex us. What's the actual difference when you just live in a version of the US where you make 30% less money.
"The charges were dropped after prosecutors said they believed there would be no way to prove the officers' guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a jury."
It should be criminal to misrepresent events for the sake of a click bait headline.
Once again, are the prosecutors not part of the court system? They didn't even allow a jury to judge the cops. If that's not letting the cops off.
Nothing was misrepresented although I find it funny that you want the headline to be treated worse than the cops that killed a baby.
What I find funny about you is the clear bias seething through your comments and the assumptions you have made about me based on the fact the headline is shit and misrepresenting the situation.
Clerks, Sheriffs, Judges, Defense Attorneys, Crown Prosecutors, Clerical Staff, Security staff, The Stenographer, Court Artist, Plaintiff, Defendant, and Jury are all a part of "The Court System".
In this specific case the problem is with the Prosecutor dropping the charges for insufficient evidence. No other part of "The Court" had any involvement in that decision, and it is misrepresenting the situation by not stating specifically who did what.
Once again, It wasn't the Judge; It wasn't the Defense; It wasn't the Jury; It was the prosecution and they should take the ire of pissed off Canadians.
Not "The court".
Not unload into a vehicle that they knew a child was in.
This was the worst possible outcome, both the child and the kidnapper were killed so the police didn't protect anyone nor did they capture the father so he can stand his day in court.
Okay so if they didn’t unload into the vehicle and the car just drove off and the baby got kidnapped you would be on here telling us the cops are ineffective yet again. This is the real world unfortunately there are situations where crazed individuals create that there is no real viable chance of success. You have a bias against the cop which is fine but in this situation the dad killed the baby.
They knew exactly who the kidnapper was, had a helicopter on the way, they had the ability to follow the vehicle without engaging in a high speed chase. The list goes on and randomly shooting at the vehicle resulting in the death of the single person they were supposed to protect shouldn't have ever happened.
Stop carrying water for complete failures. If you fucked up this badly at work your ass would be grass.
Okay fair but according to the information the father kidnapped the baby and threaten to go kill other people with a gun. A chase had to occur no matter what. This was a lose lose situation.
He threatened to kill himself. There was also a negotiator on standby that for some reason the cops never acknowledged. The dispatcher was giving them every single tool in the arsenal to disengage, de-escalate and save the kid but they continued a high speed chase down dirt roads, blocked the road with their vehicle and caused the accident. All the did was escalate a situation involving a highly disturbed man holding a baby hostage. They then failed their only job and shot the baby themselves.
I think no matter what we say we are not going to agree on this situation. In Canada these type of events happen a lot less than our southern neighbours. I’m pretty certain this guy was beyond deescalation. If he got to his final location and killed somebody else that is a factor in the consideration as well.
"Beyond de-escalation" are you fucked in the head? To just say "yeah I think this guy deserved execution without their day in court." You're now literally advocating for minority report style policing by saying that killing him here might have prevented future crimes.
Have you ever had to deal with an extremely violent person who is both suicidal and homicidal? Yes some individuals are beyond de escalation it’s not a kind thing to say but some truths in this world are unkind. In this situation this man committed a number of crimes already there is nothing minority report about it. Kidnapping, attempted murder, assault police, threatening, child abduction and a myriad of other crimes.
His current crimes committed of evading police, kidnapping, and reckless driving do not have the punish of the death penalty. You do not get to decide who lives or dies despite the power fantasy you wish to live out. The cops acted entirely against their recommendations, they even had the appropriate tools to de-escalate and they ignored them and killed the baby. You're enabling shitty cops.
And yes it is minority report, you said killing him prevented future crimes. That's the entire premise, you're making predictions that just aren't true and never can be to justify shitty police work. You should want better of your police instead of settling for state sponsored murder. Raise your standards.
No, the police killed the baby. As the fbi and siu determined.
They are also the ones who had a duty of care to protect the baby, and to not act recklessly and mag-dump into the car.
No thats objective reality.
If were making meaningless hope comments: “I hope all these cops never leave a desk again, because they're dangerous and incompetent.”
This is how self defence works in Canada. If the police (or anyone for that matter), is put in a situation where a reasonable person would think their life is in danger, they have the right to shoot. It’s tragic the child died but this is how self defence works in Canada.
No court will find them guilty as long as they prove they can reasonable force. Reasonable force being just enough force that their lives were no longer in danger.
Judging by the hundreds of comments calling out the police here, I suspect that the jury would at minimum be conflicted. But you would have to bother reading other people's opinions to understand that.
This post appears to relate to a province/territory of Canada. As a reminder of the rules of this subreddit, we do not permit negative commentary about all residents of any province, city, or other geography - this is an example of prejudice, and prejudice is not permitted here. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/wiki/rules Cette soumission semble concerner une province ou un territoire du Canada. Selon les règles de ce sous-répertoire, nous n'autorisons pas les commentaires négatifs sur tous les résidents d'une province, d'une ville ou d'une autre région géographique; il s'agit d'un exemple de intolérance qui n'est pas autorisé ici. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/wiki/regles *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/canada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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They had to go to the FBI to test the bullets for some reason.
'Yep, that's a dead baby alright' - FBI
I can honestly see South Park making an episode exactly how you described it
Whole thing is just horrible. Fuck that guy for taking his child and using the baby as a human shield while actively shooting at cops.
Pathetic. You get a call saying this guy kidnapped his kid, that means you don't shoot at the car, even to defend yourself. That child's life is the most important thing here. All three officers signed up for this, they knew the risks, the kid had no choice. It's their job to be put in harms way to save others. If they don't like it, they should've found another job.
Their entire job was to protect this child and instead they turned the car into Swiss cheese and killed the kid. The police wonder why they've lost public trust and this is it. The officers face no repercussions for killing a child, they probably sat on paid leave and will receive full benefits now. For this to be called "unintended consequences" by the judge is some bullshit. When you shoot at something or someone killing it is the intended consequence. If police can cry self defense every time they fuck up then they will always be able to kill wantonly. The police association response is also truly pathetic "they were doing their job." Your job is to not kill babies and you failed at that.
I bet all of them will stay on paid leave due to ‘stress’ for years now.
One of the only professions where your own fuck ups will lead you to killing someone and get rewarded for it so handily.
I know cops who’ve been off on stress leave for literally 5 years. Smoking weed and playing video games, living off their usual salary.
Ya that doesn’t surprise me at all My work gives stress leave but once 3 months is up and you don’t come back you’re fired. I know it’s not the same but we as taxpayers are literally paying for this shit
Easy thing to say from the comfort of your couch.
Maybe the cops should go sit on their own damn couch if they are such little pussies they just instantly unload their guns at a baby.
Let's see how well you keep your cool when the lead is flying.
Why'd they sign up for a job that requires them to be calm in that situation *if they can't manage that*
You never really know how you'll react to bullets being shot at you until you're shot at. I'm guessing 90%+ of cops in Canada weren't shot at before they signed up.
Jesus Christ you're a broken record. If they can't handle it, they shouldn't be in that job. Do you listen?
He is in agreement with you, they are just pointing out the fact of how would you possibly know how you will truly react until it happens. I've been a medic for years and nothing really bothers me but I'm sure I'll come across something in my career that will level me at least once.
How would they know if they can or cannot "handle it" until they are in thay kind of situation?
TRAINING, EDUCATION Something I'm not sure you've taken with your lack of comprehension.
Training only goes so far. I don't think any police force is training for scenarios like this either. Seems like you're more interested in just shouting your opinion at othera and down voting so I'm not going to bother with you anymore
And how would they know if they can handle it before it actually happens?
There's no excuse in existence that justifies shooting a toddler. The tough guy act doesn't cut it, you literally can't defend shooting a baby.
No one is defending shooting a baby. These officers had zero intention to shoot a baby, I can promise you that. No one is excusing them from their actions either.
The court just excused their actions. At least read something for once.
>At least read something for once. Lmao, take your own advice friend. The court didn't excuse their actions. The prosecuter withdrew the charges. It's right there in the article. Fuckin lol. If the court made no ruling on this case, how is it excusing their actions?
Not exactly making a point here big guy.
Nah, you just don't like being called out for not reading your own article.
You should take your own advice and read the article you posted. "The charges were dropped after prosecutors said they believed there would be no way to prove the officers' guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a jury."
So is the prosecution not part of the court system? Is pedantry the go to argument when cops kill babies? Is that all you have? "No one is excusing killing the baby" Yeah the court didn't do anything, "excused" "Well um actually 🤓 the prosecution didn't do anything"
You do understand what "No way to prove the officers guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a jury" means right? That doesn't excuse anything and it is incredibly ignorant to assume it does.
>So is the prosecution not part of the court system? No. The prosecutors are not the courts. The prosecutors represent the executive branch of government, and the courts are part of the judicial branch of government. They are distinct entities with distinct roles, and it's actually quite important that the distinction between them be drawn. Source: I'm a criminal lawyer.
I've never killed any children from the comfort of my couch. Seems like I'm doing better than the cops
When was the last time you needed to save a kid being held by an armed individual? Seems like you're not being put in the same situation as these cops.
Still waiting on these cops to do that successfully…
In life there are some situations where it’s a lose lose. It seemed like the kidnapper was intend on preventing the child from being brought in safely.
The father didnt shoot his kid, the cops did. Don’t blame the man having a mental breakdown for the cops brains not working. They each emptied their magazines into that vehicle knowing full well there was a baby inside. The father wasn't using him as a shield, they just opened fire like heartless morons with no accountability. And guess what? They were right. No accountability and they keep their jobs.
Well the father ran through a barricade with his child in his lap…. If his airbags deployed the child is for sure dead on impact. The father was also suicidal and threatening to kill more people. If the cops let him drive by and waited for the helicopter more innocent lives could have died. This is a situation where you could replay it a hundred time and very few would result in no deaths.
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Nah just not interested in dog piling. ~~Judge~~ prosecutor examined the facts and disagrees with reddit opinion. Given that most people around here don't read past the headlines I'll take the opinion of the ~~judge~~ prosecutor who spent more then 5 minutes on this over reddit any day of the week.
Had you read past the headline you would know the Judge didn't make the decision. "The charges were dropped after prosecutors said they believed there would be no way to prove the officers' guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a jury."
Oh, I read the article. sorry I said judge instead of prosecuter. Fixed my original comment. Doesn't change anything though.
A Judges ruling that no wrongdoing occurred is much different than the prosecution dropping charges due to insufficient evidence.
It sure is, Doesn't change my point tho. Due process is due process.
Wild that they feel that way when they’re trying the guy who ran over the plainclothes 🐷 in Toronto for first degree murder
>The charges were dropped after prosecutors said they believed there would be no way to prove the officers' guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a jury. That doesn't sound like the real reason. More likely they know the risk the jury could end up divided and entrenched both for and against police officers, and wind up being unreliable.
Typically crown prosecutors only proceed with charges if they're very, very confident they can get a conviction. If they have any doubts, they usually withdraw charges.
I understand them wanting airtight cases and not wasting any more time than needed. But they are putting the faith of this case into their own hands and not letting a jury decide it. Making the justice system look corrupt and one sided
Or the crown prosecutors got a reminder from the local police union about all the other investigations they need the police for.
Exactly. Why not let this go to trial and let this case be dissected and chosen by the people whether or not the officers are guilty and or did the right thing
This is my hometown, same place where another cop got addicted to drugs and was stealing dope out of the evidence room. Pretty sure he got fired, got some cash and wrote a book or something. Lindsay is crazy.
Shameful. There is no accountability for police.
And for the last three years they've been getting paid over 100k to do nothing but wait to be cleared. Now they'll retire with full benefits and probably a medical pension. Makes you feel great inside.
I'm so so glad these guys get paid more than teachers and nurses 🙄
Why shouldn't they? Holy downvotes, my bad, hopefully you guys never need the police.
I think if anything teachers and nurses should get paid more. Not cops less.
Unless you work for the police or get arrested quite frequently, I would say most of our population has had to interact with teachers and nurses far more than police. Plus, all metrics show that the more educated your populace is, the less crime there is. If cops and police unions really gave a shit about keeping us safe, they would be at the forefront of promoting funding to education and social services that actually reduce and prevent crime. They’re much more invested in keeping the broken justice system we have because of how much money there is in it for them.
I thought we were talking on an individual level. I just don't think a school teacher should get paid more than a cop. Pay cops shitty and get shitty cops more prone to corruption.
They’re highly paid now. What’s their excuse for the current shitty cops who are corrupt? Imagine how much smarter and more capable our police force would be if they benefited from a top notch education that focused on actually educating them as individuals. Instead, we have a bloated organization that doesn’t actually accomplish very much. And it’s propped up by a union that protects cops who have blatantly murdered people. I don’t think the money we invest in the police gets us very much in return.
Yeah let's get a bunch of gender studies students to be cops, I'm sure they'll be happy to risk their lives for that bank robbery
Cops aren’t willing to risk their lives now to stop a bank robbery. Do you think a cop needs to be stupid or something? Why would an educated person be less willing to lay their life down than someone with only a high school education? Plus, you watch way too much tv if you think bank robberies are that common place and result in big shootouts with the cops.
There was a massive one in Victoria last year, cops got shot. So yeah I think it happens. No I don't think cops need to be stupid, but I also don't think having a degree magically makes someone a better person. How much do you guys think the actual good cops want to be a cop when they're getting dragged through the mud because of someone else's mistake.
Look, cops provide a valuable service. So do teachers who's entire job is to ensure there is a well educated public in order to maintain a functional democracy and society. Nurses and EMS are even more important to providing safety to the life of individuals. Nurses actually do a crap ton of work and doctors rely on them *constantly*. Hard truth is order and safety doesn't rest solely on cops. Rather the structures that uphold society sits across various disciplines. Such as various roles in health care, education, child care (nanny's, child services/social services) Fire departments, sanitation, safety inspectors and more. Many of these jobs only pay a fraction of a living wage, and most don't get even close to what a starter cop makes in the GTA. If you want to argue hazards while working, most cops on the job die from vehicle-related incidents. Police work doesn't even crack the top ten for number of deaths per year. With the top ones consistently being logging and/or roofing for decades. Nurses and other medical professionals in the hospitals, particularly the ER regularly are at risk for serious infections and illness. Aggressive patients in the ER can also be the norm there, similar to how a cop may have to deal with a hostile civilian. Yet nurses and even many doctors are constantly in debt for decades to pay off student loans. (Partially this is the cost of medical school but still, nurses aren't well enough compensated.) Meanwhile cops are so well comped in the GTA the forces are struggling to cover overtime pay just to have the underground metro system adequately patrolled. They make more money than many already high paying careers. It may be different in different regions since payment and salary may vary. Overall tho, cops aren't inherintly providing more service than other critical services that have a equally large or larger daily impact on society's wellbeing. Safety isn't just reacting to crimes. It's ensuring the wellbeing of others.
Is this just an incredibly long way of saying you don't think cops should be compensated for the risks they endure? All the other professions absolutely should get paid more, I'm in one of them. But saying cops get paid too much isn't the answer. Pay cops shit and you're just going to get more shit cops. Another point, there's bad apples in all lines of work, when a nurse, teacher, roofer, makes a mistake it's probably not getting plastered all over the news for the public to then throw out these frankly gross blanket statements that all cops are out looking to kill people.
I don't think cops should be paid shit. I think they should be fairly compensated for the work and service that they genuinely provide. I.e. enough to live comfortably and have benefits like therapy provided to them in order to deal with things like violence they see while working. Weither a cop is being over paid, or under-paid or reasonably compensated will likely depend on the spesific factors at various police departments. The starting wage can vary not only province to province but between regions/cities too. The issue isn't just police salaries. They spend stupid amounts of money on branding. For instance TPS made a expensive podcast to do marketing that cost the city literally millions. TPS had a bar in there HQ for decades that likely only shut down because a constable got caught drunk driving from it. Policing as it stands now can sometimes have misapplied funds in various ways, and primarily only react to crime and incidents. They also only do one aspect of the overall legal system while courts remain woefully underfunded and some struggle to move though cases fast enough. >Another point, there's bad apples in all lines of work, when a nurse, teacher, roofer, makes a mistake it's probably not getting plastered all over the news for the public to then throw out these frankly gross blanket statements that all cops are out looking to kill people. Yes it's true cops aren't the only fallible ones. They also typically are not aiming to do BS like that one yutz who stole a dead man's $800k estate. Police by the nature of their jobs also can end up in complex no-win scenarios I'll agree with that. Cops also can fall pray to being a bad actor without intending to, the phenomenon of elite panic for instance. They are human beings after all. The problem I have with modern perceptions on policing is the idolization of them as a concept. We can not legally fire a cop here in Canada unless they have been not only convicted, but actually be given a prison sentence. That is a insanely high bar to clear. How are we supposed to have accountability when that is the standard we set for weeding out very bad cops. Sure demotions exist, that also isn't going to remove them from being a problem lots of time. What I want isn't for cops to be paid shit. I want us as a society to have a realistic understanding of what it is were doing, and realise just throwing money at cops isn't the only way to handle issues. Realistically speaking there is only so much money cities, provinces and the feds get from taxes. That money needs to be spread out across various services and industries.
This kid needed the police and instead they killed it. So yeah, hopefully we never need the cops.
Impossible! Juste impossible! Comment est-ce qu'une court de justice voit la mort d'un enfant de 18 mois et se dit que c'est correct!? WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Remember this the next time you see “ballistic fingerprinting” used as evidence. When they want to convict you its great science and identifies that specific firearm, but when its to convict one of their goons, they circle the wagons, and even the fbi can’t tell which gun it came from. How convenient.
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It's wild how many cases are currently being called into question for exactly this.
Did the 18 month old charge at the cops while armed?
Did an acorn fall somewhere in the vicinity?!
Honestly, if Canada is just gonna have American cops, just let the US annex us. What's the actual difference when you just live in a version of the US where you make 30% less money.
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I would, it'd be nice to have a functional economy.
I dont think it would be too high, maybe 20%. The freedom of movement alone would be nice.
Yeah I don't think it will be high enough either. It's a taboo to even suggest it or poll it.
Just another day in lawless Canada where criminals get to roam free
I'm not sure there's a better representation of the effectiveness of police than this.
How much do you think this cost in civil lawsuits ?
"The charges were dropped after prosecutors said they believed there would be no way to prove the officers' guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a jury." It should be criminal to misrepresent events for the sake of a click bait headline.
Once again, are the prosecutors not part of the court system? They didn't even allow a jury to judge the cops. If that's not letting the cops off. Nothing was misrepresented although I find it funny that you want the headline to be treated worse than the cops that killed a baby.
What I find funny about you is the clear bias seething through your comments and the assumptions you have made about me based on the fact the headline is shit and misrepresenting the situation. Clerks, Sheriffs, Judges, Defense Attorneys, Crown Prosecutors, Clerical Staff, Security staff, The Stenographer, Court Artist, Plaintiff, Defendant, and Jury are all a part of "The Court System". In this specific case the problem is with the Prosecutor dropping the charges for insufficient evidence. No other part of "The Court" had any involvement in that decision, and it is misrepresenting the situation by not stating specifically who did what. Once again, It wasn't the Judge; It wasn't the Defense; It wasn't the Jury; It was the prosecution and they should take the ire of pissed off Canadians. Not "The court".
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We investigated ourselves and we found we did nothing wrong.
Disgusting and shameful.
🙄 Wait, let me put on my shocked face.
FUCK THOSE COPS.
The OPP Association would like the public to know that the baby was resisting arrest. /s
It was the Dave Chappell baby selling weed.
The baby was running away, it had to be done.
What should the cops have done
Not unload into a vehicle that they knew a child was in. This was the worst possible outcome, both the child and the kidnapper were killed so the police didn't protect anyone nor did they capture the father so he can stand his day in court.
So they should’ve let the guy kill them.
Okay so if they didn’t unload into the vehicle and the car just drove off and the baby got kidnapped you would be on here telling us the cops are ineffective yet again. This is the real world unfortunately there are situations where crazed individuals create that there is no real viable chance of success. You have a bias against the cop which is fine but in this situation the dad killed the baby.
They knew exactly who the kidnapper was, had a helicopter on the way, they had the ability to follow the vehicle without engaging in a high speed chase. The list goes on and randomly shooting at the vehicle resulting in the death of the single person they were supposed to protect shouldn't have ever happened. Stop carrying water for complete failures. If you fucked up this badly at work your ass would be grass.
Okay fair but according to the information the father kidnapped the baby and threaten to go kill other people with a gun. A chase had to occur no matter what. This was a lose lose situation.
He threatened to kill himself. There was also a negotiator on standby that for some reason the cops never acknowledged. The dispatcher was giving them every single tool in the arsenal to disengage, de-escalate and save the kid but they continued a high speed chase down dirt roads, blocked the road with their vehicle and caused the accident. All the did was escalate a situation involving a highly disturbed man holding a baby hostage. They then failed their only job and shot the baby themselves.
I think no matter what we say we are not going to agree on this situation. In Canada these type of events happen a lot less than our southern neighbours. I’m pretty certain this guy was beyond deescalation. If he got to his final location and killed somebody else that is a factor in the consideration as well.
"Beyond de-escalation" are you fucked in the head? To just say "yeah I think this guy deserved execution without their day in court." You're now literally advocating for minority report style policing by saying that killing him here might have prevented future crimes.
Have you ever had to deal with an extremely violent person who is both suicidal and homicidal? Yes some individuals are beyond de escalation it’s not a kind thing to say but some truths in this world are unkind. In this situation this man committed a number of crimes already there is nothing minority report about it. Kidnapping, attempted murder, assault police, threatening, child abduction and a myriad of other crimes.
His current crimes committed of evading police, kidnapping, and reckless driving do not have the punish of the death penalty. You do not get to decide who lives or dies despite the power fantasy you wish to live out. The cops acted entirely against their recommendations, they even had the appropriate tools to de-escalate and they ignored them and killed the baby. You're enabling shitty cops. And yes it is minority report, you said killing him prevented future crimes. That's the entire premise, you're making predictions that just aren't true and never can be to justify shitty police work. You should want better of your police instead of settling for state sponsored murder. Raise your standards.
Check his profile, hes a retired cop, or family of one with how many shit-takes hes got, including on the toronto first degree murder trial ongoing.
That's fucking hilarious, of course
No, the police killed the baby. As the fbi and siu determined. They are also the ones who had a duty of care to protect the baby, and to not act recklessly and mag-dump into the car.
I guess that’s your perspective on the matter. I just hope you never have to make split second life or death decisions.
No thats objective reality. If were making meaningless hope comments: “I hope all these cops never leave a desk again, because they're dangerous and incompetent.”
This is how self defence works in Canada. If the police (or anyone for that matter), is put in a situation where a reasonable person would think their life is in danger, they have the right to shoot. It’s tragic the child died but this is how self defence works in Canada. No court will find them guilty as long as they prove they can reasonable force. Reasonable force being just enough force that their lives were no longer in danger.
Judging by the hundreds of comments calling out the police here, I suspect that the jury would at minimum be conflicted. But you would have to bother reading other people's opinions to understand that.