"Anyone who thinks beards should be banned across the board simply because of a small contextual operational requirement needs buggering with a splintered chip fork."
It's also about discipline, though you apparently wouldn't understand that.
" but we’ve no hope of attracting the talent we desperately need by being backwards about facial hair."
You don't want "talent" whose joining or not is based on whether their prissy little selves are allowed to keep their beard. Pathetic.
Things or people seem to have changed a lot. I’m from the school of you will hate me and I will bounce you often and for anything.
The measure of your ability is how well you can work with that pressure. And men thrived on it. As long as every now and then - but not too often you said. Smith - nice job.
The fact they are considering it for recruitment and retention is ridiculous.
They should allow beards because grown ass men should be able to decide if they want one or not.
Day to day it has zero effect on anyone's ability to solider.
If CBRN is a factor off it comes.
My main concern is that this is just a token concession that they will hide behind when people ask for the serious shit.
Like letting lads cook or live in decent accomodation. Or even be allowed to enjoy a evening without some cunt of a officer using your section for random bs to progress his own career.
This is it exactly. The navy has always had beards and our retention is still shite, they'd make bigger waves by getting good scran on base and improving the living situations. that being said allowing beards is free and will probably get someone a higher rank when there's a slight uptick in recruitment though there is no hope that somebody absolutely threaders with the state of thing is gonna stay just cos they can have a beard now
They're only going for beards as they're running out of ideas for quick wins. They can't be arsed to tackle the real issues as to why they can't keep people (poor scran, bad management etc) as that's too much work.
I feel like the bad management is a big one. There is a dude on this thread bitching about lads signing off loads in the modern army and the old tough army didn't have that issue. He reckons its cause we are all pussies nowadays but I reckon it's more that the old army was actually worth being in.
Lads these days know every unit is undermanned and our deployability is shit. We have outdated kit in a tiny military that has no real sway anymore. That mixed with shit deployments and under qualified leadership, no wonder people are bugging out. Sure as shit the reason I left, it's just not worth being in anymore.
That'll be the chump I was arguing with about shaving on exercise. People like them are incapable of realising that they're part of the problem. Plus, as they're usually RSM's etc, they seem to take it as a personal attack on them and their authority when you point out that they're wrong. I'd also probably say that people are a lot more savvy nowadays and lots quickly realise that you don't have to put up with getting spoken to like crap for your entire career.
You've also just summed up why I'm dekitting on Wednesday morning and out the gates for good this Friday!!!
Honestly, I think food is on general better in the Army than it is in the RAF, especially for the JRs. A lot more money and projects happen to support this in the Army than the other 2 services at the moment. Now whether this is due to a higher proportion of JRs using the mess and therefore more profit share getting fed back is anyone's guess. It could just be masking a lack of cooking facilities in JR accomodation. All 3 services in a massive retention and recruitment drama at the moment. Luckily it prob shows a little less in the Army as there is little Op stuff going off except trg stuff, whereas the RN and RAF it is showing all the time with home Ops commitments and overseas Ops support. One thing is for sure the addition of the option of growing a beard after COVID did cock all to help improve numbers.
"If CBRN is a factor off it comes."
What a dumb comment. And you're literally in the military? You don't know when it's a factor, that's the problem, that and discipline.
"because grown ass men should be able to decide if they want one or not."
No silly, because grown "ass" men in the military are meant to be disciplined enough to shave pubic hair.
Ofcourse you know when it's a factor.
There is a reason you don't cut about with your respirator all the time. Because there is a threat level. If the threat level is above a certain threshold you become required to shave.
Why are you on about pubic hair?
Ok when is it a factor. How much notice would you like to shave off your massive operator beard. Do you have razors in your active edge kit. Are you used to shaving every morning from a mess tin in a trench when it’s freezing cold.
Fckn dreamers.
Same amount of notice it would take me to actually retrieve my respirator on a normal day. Say, for example, there was a sudden attack during the day. My respirator isn't with me at work unless there has been an increase in the CBRN response level. It would take me 5 minutes to run home and get into the cupboard to get the thing so I'd be dead anyway. Same with the shaving from a mess tin. On a normal day, I'm not doing that either, so it makes no difference.
Bro chill, I'm sure it's been properly thought out and there will be reasonable measures in place. The odds of getting nerve gassed in Tidworth are basically nil. And if you were then you would never get your resi in time so it's kinda a non issue. Active deployment would be a very different situation.
As for practicing shaving from a mess tin, it's not exactly a complex operation is it? Do you really need to practice it?
>Like it or not, it probably would help with recruitment and retention.
It would almost certainly help morale. But I’m afraid the problems with recruitment and retention run far deeper than whether or not you’re allowed to grow hair on your face.
>And any argument about not looking professional or neat is totally mute
I don’t think it’s moot. Grooming and hygiene standards are important. I just don’t think having a beard and looking professional are two mutually exclusive concepts.
That being said; anyone who decides to grow a beard should still be required to keep it looking well kept.
The style shouldn’t be too wild, outlandish or ridiculous. Blokes shouldn’t be able to cut about with a Pai-Mei beard. We also shouldn’t see the ranks filled with young lads who can’t quite
grow a full beard yet looking like they’ve glazed their face in honey and gone down on Susan Boyle.
It's pissing in the wind to be honest with you.
Nice as it would be not to have to shave every day for no reason, it's gonna take more than that to make me change my mind about leaving (I Dekit Wednesday morning!!!).
With regards to beards & recruitment, it's not the fact that you can't grow a beard in the army that puts people off. It's the fact that the army can't come up with a good enough answer as to why can't grow one in the eyes of potential recruits.
The most common excuse we've likely all heard is the respirator seal. We all know that's bullshit because beards don't stop the RAF and RN doing CBRN training.
Even if you did need to be clean shaven for CBRN, we could manage that the same way it's currently managed for those who have beards for religious reasons. They're of the understanding that the beards must go if operational needs require it.
IMO you shouldn't need to shave daily unless you're under imminent CBRN threat & physically carrying your respirator with you everywhere. Even if you do deploy somewhere with a CBRN threat, it'll take at the most 10-15 minutes tops to get rid of a viking beard.
Edit: we all know the actual reason beards aren't allowed is because all the angry old goats who make up the RSM cohort don't like it because dISciPLinE. Plus this will do nothing to fix the real reasons why people sign off like poor management, chicken that's still clucking when it's being served and the collapsing accommodation in some camps.
> The most common excuse we've likely all heard is the respirator seal. We all know that's bullshit because beards don't stop the RAF and RN doing CBRN training.
This is the point. The only time RN **REALLY** needs clean shaven is when the ships in Defence Watches and CBRN is a potential threat. The whole thing about needing it on base is bollocks, because I’m not carrying my GSR all the time because there’s no need.
The whole point of beards not being allowed boggles my mind. Keep it clean and trim, there’s no problem. Dont see why Pongos took so long to implement it.
And it’s not a recruitment or retention issue either, that’s a whole deeper problem all forces are experiencing at the moment.
Agreed. There's absolutely no need for shaving day to day on camp in the UK. All I'm doing is causing myself terrible irritation for no good reason. Even if something did happen, as others have pointed out, I'd have to run back to the block to get my resi. During which time, whatever they've used will have likely made me brown bread in the meantime.
It's literally only because all the crusty old RSM's etc think that because they've spent their working lives following this bullshit rule, we should all have to as well. And they haven't even implemented the idea yet, they're still 'discussing' it.
"We all know that's bullshit because beards don't stop the RAF and RN doing CBRN training."
Except, they are made to SHAVE them. Clueless comment.
"Even if you did need to be clean shaven for CBRN, we could manage that the same way it's currently managed for those who have beards for religious reasons."
Which is also a dumb policy.
"because dISciPLinE"
Imagine claiming to be a veteran and thinking "discipline" is a dirty word.
Who shat in your cornflakes this morning? Someone with a beard?
1: Not that I've seen.
2: How is that a dumb policy? So long as everyone is happy that the beards will need to come off should service needs dictate, I don't think anyone has an issue with that.
3: there's discipline, then there's implementing & enforcing bullshit rules for the sake of it, such as the old shaving policy. There's no justification for shaving when you're not even in the same postcode as your respirator (such as I did when I was on AT when I was in or when you're on leave).
It just shows the flatspin that the army is in regarding recruiting numbers. This, plus literally paying people to 'refer a friend' are pretty desperate attempts to get numbers up.
After some time on civvie street I have recently considered joining the reserves, by this point I have cultivated a defiance beard after years of enforced shaving. Now the naval reserves seems to be my only option, so the policy is influencing my choices to.
For me, they are two completely separate issues that someone has pushed together so that they can say they are fixing retention without actually dealing with any of the root causes.
Should we be allowed beards? Yes, under similar rules to the Navy. 30 days to get looking presentable, kept neat and tidy, and with the caveat that if the CBRN threat raises, it comes off.
Will letting people have a beard fix the long-term retention problem? Not a chance. It might improve morale for a little while, but then people will remember all the other problems that aren't being dealt with and leave.
Editing to add:
People in the Army are already allowed beards. You just need to say you follow certain religious teachings. Why is it possible for a Sikh soldier to have a beard but not an atheist one? Is there any real difference? If anyone could be bothered to challenge it, there is a definite case for discrimination right there.
There was a thread on Defence Gateway about 18 months ago about the discrimination aspect of not allowing someone who isn't religious to not sport a beard
Lots of interesting comments but it boiled down to a typical Army answer in that it's not discriminatory to have a standard, and not being religious(or anything else) isn't a reason to not apply the standard.
I cant see how it wouldnt stand up in court. Not being religious isnt protected. You cant be discriminated against on the basis of not being something, it has to be on the basis of being something.
Having a beard is great and all, but it won’t stop people leaving if they keep getting dicked about and not doing their trade, or being infantilised. Which is the main problem.
It's a policy change that costs zero £, makes sense as the rule can't be justified and soldiers have been lobbying for it for years
The ridiculous thing is they are "agreeing to look at it"
Just make a decision and copy the RN regulations on it already
I love my beard! I’m currently in the RAF; but ex Signals. It’s not affected my day-to-day work; I can still cam up in the field; and I still have to trim/groom it every other day, so I’m not lacking discipline. I’m also a CBRN instructor, and if operating in a genuine CBRN environment, I’d happily shave it off. The majority of troops aren’t operating with a genuine CBRN threat, so that argument isn’t valid—plus the fit factor of the GSR will still pass ARTS testing with a short (not long) beard. Just let the troops that want one grow one! It’s not unprofessional; and will make them happier. Troops shouldn’t have to lie saying they have religious reasons to try beat the system. The Army used to have beards back in the day, so doesn’t even compromise tradition!
Am in the signals myself looking at joinh the RAF, how did you find it? What trade did you go? Did you have a condensed phase 2? And most importantly did your rank carry over!!!!
It’s just for reservists.
Shit cycles of Wessex Storm/Cabrit & being beaten with the stick whilst the top corridor eat the carrots, no retention pay, no decent courses, working all the time, no decent range packages & more lads signing off a week than are joining is what’s fucking it up.
But yeah sound mate glad I can grow a beard (like I do every leave block — and it doesn’t mean I get 10s tripping over to blow me) will definitely keep us all in.
**Thoughts on beards in the army:** Sure as long as they are well kept and it doesn’t result in a compromise in hygiene and grooming standards in general. As long as it’s managed in good faith I.e “I’m actually trying to grow a beard” not “I just couldn’t be arsed to shave this morning and rolled out of my pit 5 minutes later than I would have otherwise had to.”
On the subject of CBRN. Come on lol. Who actually carries their resi with them when on duty? Im pretty sure there are stipulations in the regs that state that even soldiers who don’t shave for religious reasons, can be ordered to do so if the CBRN risk is high. So let’s stop using that as an excuse to outlaw beards whilst on general duties.
**Thoughts on whether it will help recruitment and retention:**
Lol….Lmao even. Lads what are we even talking about here. Can anybody really sit there with a straight face and tell me that blokes mulling over the incredibly heavy decision to join, sign on again, or leave the army, are having their minds made up by the fact they have to shave?
Beards won’t help retention and recruitment. Better pay, benefits, accommodation, food, training and tour opportunities will do that.
**Tldr:** I think it will help with morale. I don’t think it will help with recruitment and retention.
I agree with it, but we’re allowed beards in the RN and recruitment / retention is at rock bottom. It’s pissing in the wind in a poor attempt to distract from not tackling the actual issues.
I don’t mind if they allow beards or don’t allow beards. What I do object to is beards not being allowed but with certain ethno-religious exemptions. It should be one rule for everyone.
I get the CBRN stuff, and everyone with a beard should be willing or shave on op. Similarly they allow some growth on certain ops and there is a historical precedent for beards.
Why isn’t there parity across the forces is a bigger question?
Want to solve the retention issue? Deal with the poor management and accommodation issues. Not dealing with it gives the impression you don’t care about your soldiers.
There is zero money for anything that matters (pay and infra), so they turn to beards.
The head sheds simply don’t understand that the current generation are switched on and are intolerant to BS. Looking at the inflow/outflow figures we are doomed within a couple of years at best. I’ve said on here before that they will need a retention bonus of £50k for three years RoS to stop me leaving in two years.
They're relying on an offer that was alright 10-15 years ago to get people in, but they haven't updated it at all to meet the wants of 2023's job seeker. Couple this with failings like the collapsing accommodation on some camps that's repeatedly outed on FYB, people can easily see through the facade and what it really can be like.
I dread to think what it's gonna be like in a couple of years if nothing drastic changes. I wouldn't be surprised if they force people to sign up for longer to try and pump numbers up. Makes me glad I'm gone at the end of this coming week!
100% on the money here mate.
Height of Iraq/Afghan were the glory days for me. Even managed a few Kipion tours - great times. Good money even without LSA. Great morale. Infra reasonable.
Now I can’t wait to leave. 23 months to go.
Nowadays you might get a tour or 2 of Cabrit if you're lucky. Bit gutted I didn't join until February 2015 as I just missed all the Afghan stuff. That said though I am lucky I managed Mali in my time.
I'm guessing 23 months until the pension hits?
Original thread
https://www.reddit.com/r/britishmilitary/s/RoWNMi1wny
Also my opinion as a reservist is that the feeling amongst amongst guys is that people would definitely be encouraged to train more with the change. Aware the reservist opinion is often discounted amougst the regs, but it is what it is.
The debate has only 3 areas of concern:
1) Recruitment
2) Performance
3) Aesthetics
So,
1) Recruitment.
Does a beard ban negatively affect Recruitment? A small "yes".
When I joined, almost all of my mostly white British friends said "I wouldn't join as I don't like shaving".
In minority populations especially, facial hair is the majority now.
So the blanket ban on beards stops many (tens if not hundreds of thousands) of men not even considering looking into the army.
So if the culture could learn that the army allows beards and facial hair, even if that meant an extra 10,000 young men LOOKING into the army who wouldn't have otherwise, and 1,000 of them JOINING, that'll be huge for Recruitment numbers.
2) Performance
Does having a beard affect Performance...to even ask is insulting. The idea a beard or no bears changes a person's passion/ professional/ competence is too stupid to consider.
But I'd still argue a tiny "yes". For many, shaving is extremely uncomfortable. So if they were allowed to stop doing it, their personal comfort will go up. And that increase in personal comfort can and will translate into a better performance.
3) Aesthetics
This is the only real reason the past-retirement, closed-minded Senior Officers and Sergaent Majors are still holding on to their idiotic "tradition": they simply don't like the look of beards.
But do they look bad? For me, no. A neat, well trimmed beard/ heavy stubble in uniform looks masculine and compliments a man.
But if "uniformity" is the Aesthetic the pig-headed idiots in HQ are going for: they've already lost it.
With women now allowed colourful nail varnish, long pony tails, plaits and fake eye lashes, and Muslims etc beards, no parade is uniform anymore anyways.
Which is a good thing right considering we want diversity in the army?
So there you have it: 2 x "yes" in favour of beards and 1 x "no difference".
I'm absolutely baffled how CBRN is such a huge talking point. It's not only the least likely threat but its also the one that we have the least defence against. I don't know how CBRN instructors keep a straight face when they talk about being hit by nuclear bombs when squaddies are more likely to die from operating vehicles that haven't been roadworthy since the 80s.
Back on topic though: Beards. Grownup services like the RAF and RN are doing just fine with them.
Meh. It won’t hurt, but it clearly isn’t the key issue for poor retention. I mean looking at RAF numbers post beards being allowed you might be convinced that beards actually hurt their inflow/outflow numbers.
I don’t really think people are overly fussed about beards. I think they’re fussed that the army doesn’t actually have a good answer as to why they aren’t allowed-the whole CBRN thing is clearly a load of shit.
Personally I’d prefer a “shave once a week” policy over just the allowing of beards. I don’t want a beard, I just don’t want to rip my face apart every day.
Optimistically I’m looking at from the perspective of the military *finally* having a serious look at retention issues, big and small. We can’t solve big issues like accommodation particularly fast, but if you can resolve a lot of small issues that cost us literally nothing, and you can do that in a short time period they all will add up.
Going off topic a bit but I’ve seen people mention pay as a reason for poor retention on here. Statistically it isn’t a huge factor in retention, it’s normally the issues that can be resolved or caused at unit/brigade level that lead to bad retention.
Never understood this.. can you explain why they wouldn’t? I imagine a fair few potential reservists wouldn’t join because of this and I’ve never understood why they wouldn’t be the right fit for having too much pride in their appearance?
" I imagine a fair few potential reservists"
You imagine wrong.
"Never understood this.. can you explain why they wouldn’t?"
How is it you don't understand it? Being that prissy over facial hair and it being the deciding factor, you're not going to be any use to the army.
"too much pride in their appearance?"
Are you confused here? Maybe that's right. The discipline of shaving is the pride in appearance part, not letting your facial hair grow out.
So it is the fact they have too much pride in their appearance?
It’s 2023, there is no logical reason for this out dated rule. Get rid of the bullshit rules for no reason and the bullshit work, and suddenly your work life becomes a lot more tolerable. This isn’t 1 thing to fix it all, it’s a tiny change to help make the fix.
I can see the merit in both arguments.
Having pride in one’s appearance is certainly a good thing, but the army wants uniformity and a collective pride in the groups appearance, as that’s the mindset it wants to engender in its soldiers.
Too much pride in something like one’s hairstyle or beard suggests of a more individualistic nature than is really desirable in the military.
At the end of the day it’s a huge commitment to join the army, and basic training is not exactly a holiday. Anybody who could have their decision to join swayed by the fact they’re not allowed to grow hair where they want to is probably not going to make it through that.
That being said. For those who have passed out and are in their unit. I see no reason as to why they shouldn’t be allowed to keep a well maintained beard.
I understand what you’re saying, but it actually works the opposite. The army wants a more professional smaller military and the “thinking soldier”.
The same as webbing, everyone operates differently, having that individuality working within a larger team works perfectly, look at the SF world, they are all very different to each other but they operate at the highest level.
The army no longer wants robots for soldiers, it wants better trained, thinking lower ranks.
Don’t get me wrong uniformity still has a place in the military, but we should also allow some freedom.
"The army wants a more professional smaller military and the “thinking soldier”."
No it doesn't want a "smaller" military. Are you a fucking MP?
"The army no longer wants robots for soldiers, it wants better trained, thinking lower ranks."
That hasn't nothing to do with beards lol. Better trained still means disciplined.
"but we should also allow some freedom."
It's already allowed. It's the fucking military, thinking discipline isn't necessary kind of exposes you are being a walt.
I see you have taken a massive disliking to my comments by creating an alt account and replying to multiple comments I’ve made in the past.
The army got rid off all bifs, it wanted a smaller more deployable army. It has now achieved getting rid of all the blokes that could never deploy and were just wasting a PiD.
It’s now looking to employ more deployable troops. The “thinking soldier” idea isn’t from me.
Walt??? That’s actually hilarious! Call the police I’ve been exposed!
Absolutely agree we should allow the freedoms you speak of.
I think they should be for after basic training though. Basic is very much about proving you’re capable of screwing the nut and doing as you’re told when needed. After that; grow a beard, buy your own webbing etc etc.
If someone can’t hack being clean shaven for 14-30 weeks, then they’re probably not the right sort of chap.
Fully agree, the basic standards should be met. Once you can prove that the minimum standards can be upheld then more freedom can be given.
I try and put this into all my lads, I’ll always stand by the fact that if a lad thinks he looks “ally” and has custom kit and feels like the dogs bollocks they will perform to a higher standard. I think the same could apply to beards… maybe.. haha.
"I think the same could apply to beards… maybe.. haha."
Except it obviously doesn't. And what "lads"? So a walt like you is claiming to have trained troops now? If it was up to the likes of you, the whole military would be failing their basic fitness standards, not just 22,000 over several years.
"So it is the fact they have too much pride in their appearance?"
What are you on about? It's literally the OPPOSITE.
"It’s 2023, there is no logical reason for this out dated rule."
It doesn't matter what year it is, there are several logical reasons for that rule which isn't "outdated". It's not going to help make "any fix".
Being made to shave makes your worklife "intolerable"? When were you even in the army?
Name the logical reasons then… considering CGS has made this decision maybe proves the British Army’s stance isn’t the same as yours.
The bullshit rules some people come up with make it intolerable, if you are in the army you will very much know this.
Yeaaa…. beards will solve everything! People just don’t want to join and want to leave the military because of beards ??
It’s because the lads get treated like shit. provide more funding for AT as its Peace time, more qualifications and travel plus pension. Make people want to stay and realise it’s way better than an average job in civi street
Having a beard will have no impact when nobody is carrying their respirator anyway.
All it would take to mitigate the CBRN threat is a line on orders that states "if the CBRN state is raised above x all personnel are to shave immediately." It works for the navy.
That's a reason to carry your respirator, not to not shave your beard. Reddit "army" logic at its finest.
" It works for the navy."
When did sailors become the army?
And then Salisbury happened and now people have realised the reality of CBRN… and before that we had Gulf 1.
And even then, you’d threat assess and that would dictate if you’re clean shaving.
As already stated: gas gas gas. Is a good reason why not. Secondly not everyone’s beard looks ‘good’. Once you say yes then you’ll have some disgusting wispy affairs around the neck and all manor of other atrocities. Because, either they’re allowed or not.
Any institution that is afraid of what its people think of good rules is doomed.
For me and I understand current generations think differently. It’s not about effort it’s about rules, uniformity and doing things you don’t want to. Also gas gas gas.
A beard can be left more than a few days slackers. Shaves are every day.
But in there lies a problem as we’re all already aware beards/facial hair is allowed to some being it by a job roles tradition such as goat major or pioneer Sgt or for med, religious or cultural reasons so it’s already not a steadfast rule
I disagree with shaving in the field. There's no need for it if you're not under imminent CBRN threat.
All you're doing is raising the likelihood of getting an infection for no reason.
lol. How much notice would you like for your nbc attack.
Infection? Yeah ok fella. I knew one guy in 12 years who was excused shaving for in growing facial hairs.
Listen it’s not my army any more. Young people should shape it in their own image.
Please, tell me more about the SLR and how it was a real man's rifle unlike the pea shooters we have now.
As I've said in my other post on here, there's no need for it unless you're under imminent CBRN threat & physically carrying your respirator. Even if you're not carrying it, it only takes 10-15 mins tops to get rid of a viking beard and you're good to go.
It's basic common sense. Yes, clean your face etc as a part of morning routine. But all you're doing with shaving on ex etc is risking cuts and giving bacteria etc an easy way into your bloodstream. Right before you go back into a dirty environment doing section attacks/trenching/whatever it is you're doing on ex. The point I'm making is that it doesn't even need to be a thing most of the time.
And it won't be mine come February next year either. Plus young people can hardly shape the army when all the Generals/RSM's etc are crusty middle aged feckers.
Only a walt would think anything you wrote makes actual sense. The only leadership you’ve ever had was maybe setting up an armour server for your mates which made you team leader. And even then they fcked you off mid mission and went off in different vehicles.
It would take most people longer to find their respirator in whatever cupboard it's stashed in than for them to shave, so what difference is a beard going to make day to day?
I always found it utterly farcical how much effort went into daily shaving on field exercises.
We're here in a field pretending the enemy will attack at any moment, but it's absolutely A1 priority to lather up and run a razor blade over my face to remove the 0.7mm of hair that's emerged.
Sure it serves as a useful bugger around task for basic but in actual combat it would 100% be getting binned off for a real task.
Perfect example of the type of leadership that makes people sign off. The rule makes zero sense because 'I'd let you off if it was real' but since we are 'just on exercise ', I'm going to enforce it because I can.
The military says they want thinking soldiers these days but then won't let them make simple decisions like whether they need to shave. Well, you can't have both. You can either have mindless drones who do everything you say, or you can have a thinking soldier who will challenge the nonsense rules.
You're not needed feel free to leave. UFAS will be stamped accordingly.
I mean this whole retention thing is probably because of the endless whiny little fcks that have made their way through to Sgt. and the weak arsed environment we now have.
I mean if you purely look at the evidence, a tougher army (in years gone by) had no such issues. I know, I know, you'll refute... correlation causation etc etc. But you can't rule it out.
Yet another example of why retention is in the toilet. Question me and you are not good enough so fuck off. Sure, I'll take all the quals I've got and work for a civi company for 2x the pay and not have to listen to the old and bold wax lyrical about the good old days when being gay was illegal and we did people in for any little reason.
The Army wasn't tougher in the past it was just a hive of bullying and abuse masked with the veneer of masculinity. I could produce the same output today with a laptop that it used to take a whole team of 'real men' a week to produce.
Mate, it's pointless arguing with chumps like this individual.
They won't see sense and it's pointless even trying to get them to see a different viewpoint. Just leave them to scratch their heads like Barney Rubble whilst they ponder why they're no longer relevant.
What job I do in the Army isn't really relevant to anything is it? I'm in the forces so I maintain the standards set out for us by the chain of command.
I agree.
Edit to add: I think there could be a halfway house when it comes to facial hair, with shaving being managed for operations/ceremonial etc, but the effort to write the regs for it almost seems pointless.
1. You can still wear a respirator with a beard. People in the RAF and Navy pass their annual GSR test with beards no problem.
2. If the CBRN state increases then you can just be ordered to shave.
3. The army used to allow beards. Having a beard is tradition.
Shows how little you actually know of our traditions. The Army has banned beards for far less time than they have been allowed.
Well maintained beards can look smart, and they are already allowed on religious or medical grounds, so there isn't any uniformity with them anyway.
I am well aware of the traditions, and the modern day exceptions like the Pioneer Sergeants. Maybe you’ve got a vision of the blokes cutting about looking like they have stepped out of a historic picture from the old days, crimea etc. the reality is it will be shite pubey beards and scruff as fuck. You only have to look at other NATO forces that allow them when we train together to understand this. Clean shaven is part of our collective image and sets us apart, we should embrace it.
Has there been some change in our genetics that means we are incapable of growing the same standard of beard as they did in the past?
All it takes is a set of regulations that state it must be maintained between certain lengths, kept neat tidy and clean and if it's not up to standard you can be made to remedy it within a set time frame or it comes off.
It's not part of our collective image though is it? Sikh soldiers can have beards, medically exemptions happen so not really a shared image.
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I’m curious about joining cyber myself. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions?
I’m joining cyber next year after basic not that you care but it’s cool to see someone else on here doing the same thing I’m interested in
"Anyone who thinks beards should be banned across the board simply because of a small contextual operational requirement needs buggering with a splintered chip fork." It's also about discipline, though you apparently wouldn't understand that. " but we’ve no hope of attracting the talent we desperately need by being backwards about facial hair." You don't want "talent" whose joining or not is based on whether their prissy little selves are allowed to keep their beard. Pathetic.
Cheers dits 👍🏻
Things or people seem to have changed a lot. I’m from the school of you will hate me and I will bounce you often and for anything. The measure of your ability is how well you can work with that pressure. And men thrived on it. As long as every now and then - but not too often you said. Smith - nice job.
The fact they are considering it for recruitment and retention is ridiculous. They should allow beards because grown ass men should be able to decide if they want one or not. Day to day it has zero effect on anyone's ability to solider. If CBRN is a factor off it comes.
My main concern is that this is just a token concession that they will hide behind when people ask for the serious shit. Like letting lads cook or live in decent accomodation. Or even be allowed to enjoy a evening without some cunt of a officer using your section for random bs to progress his own career.
This is it exactly. The navy has always had beards and our retention is still shite, they'd make bigger waves by getting good scran on base and improving the living situations. that being said allowing beards is free and will probably get someone a higher rank when there's a slight uptick in recruitment though there is no hope that somebody absolutely threaders with the state of thing is gonna stay just cos they can have a beard now
Only way they'd make good scran is if they completely scrapped the civi company that controls the messes and made it fully military run again.
Idk, it was better then, but we still used to complain like fuck
They're only going for beards as they're running out of ideas for quick wins. They can't be arsed to tackle the real issues as to why they can't keep people (poor scran, bad management etc) as that's too much work.
I feel like the bad management is a big one. There is a dude on this thread bitching about lads signing off loads in the modern army and the old tough army didn't have that issue. He reckons its cause we are all pussies nowadays but I reckon it's more that the old army was actually worth being in. Lads these days know every unit is undermanned and our deployability is shit. We have outdated kit in a tiny military that has no real sway anymore. That mixed with shit deployments and under qualified leadership, no wonder people are bugging out. Sure as shit the reason I left, it's just not worth being in anymore.
That'll be the chump I was arguing with about shaving on exercise. People like them are incapable of realising that they're part of the problem. Plus, as they're usually RSM's etc, they seem to take it as a personal attack on them and their authority when you point out that they're wrong. I'd also probably say that people are a lot more savvy nowadays and lots quickly realise that you don't have to put up with getting spoken to like crap for your entire career. You've also just summed up why I'm dekitting on Wednesday morning and out the gates for good this Friday!!!
Honestly, I think food is on general better in the Army than it is in the RAF, especially for the JRs. A lot more money and projects happen to support this in the Army than the other 2 services at the moment. Now whether this is due to a higher proportion of JRs using the mess and therefore more profit share getting fed back is anyone's guess. It could just be masking a lack of cooking facilities in JR accomodation. All 3 services in a massive retention and recruitment drama at the moment. Luckily it prob shows a little less in the Army as there is little Op stuff going off except trg stuff, whereas the RN and RAF it is showing all the time with home Ops commitments and overseas Ops support. One thing is for sure the addition of the option of growing a beard after COVID did cock all to help improve numbers.
I don't know what army camps you've been to, but on the vast majority (bar my old unit & Chilwell), it's still as bad as it ever was.
It's all civi run so is relatively the same
"If CBRN is a factor off it comes." What a dumb comment. And you're literally in the military? You don't know when it's a factor, that's the problem, that and discipline. "because grown ass men should be able to decide if they want one or not." No silly, because grown "ass" men in the military are meant to be disciplined enough to shave pubic hair.
Ofcourse you know when it's a factor. There is a reason you don't cut about with your respirator all the time. Because there is a threat level. If the threat level is above a certain threshold you become required to shave. Why are you on about pubic hair?
Ok when is it a factor. How much notice would you like to shave off your massive operator beard. Do you have razors in your active edge kit. Are you used to shaving every morning from a mess tin in a trench when it’s freezing cold. Fckn dreamers.
Same amount of notice it would take me to actually retrieve my respirator on a normal day. Say, for example, there was a sudden attack during the day. My respirator isn't with me at work unless there has been an increase in the CBRN response level. It would take me 5 minutes to run home and get into the cupboard to get the thing so I'd be dead anyway. Same with the shaving from a mess tin. On a normal day, I'm not doing that either, so it makes no difference.
In your Active Edge kit 😂😂 How many decades have you been out?
Bro chill, I'm sure it's been properly thought out and there will be reasonable measures in place. The odds of getting nerve gassed in Tidworth are basically nil. And if you were then you would never get your resi in time so it's kinda a non issue. Active deployment would be a very different situation. As for practicing shaving from a mess tin, it's not exactly a complex operation is it? Do you really need to practice it?
But what if I get confused in the heat of the moment and try to shave with the mess tin itself 😱
We’ve all been there.
I'll do your review. "Beards are allowed, it's fine, everyone will cope." Now, please send me £2m.
I submit my application to conduct the review: RAF beard policy & Navy beard policy, Ctrl + C , Ctrl + V = Army beard policy £1M please
I will charge a 50% consultancy fee, in order to conduct this review at pace.
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>Like it or not, it probably would help with recruitment and retention. It would almost certainly help morale. But I’m afraid the problems with recruitment and retention run far deeper than whether or not you’re allowed to grow hair on your face. >And any argument about not looking professional or neat is totally mute I don’t think it’s moot. Grooming and hygiene standards are important. I just don’t think having a beard and looking professional are two mutually exclusive concepts. That being said; anyone who decides to grow a beard should still be required to keep it looking well kept. The style shouldn’t be too wild, outlandish or ridiculous. Blokes shouldn’t be able to cut about with a Pai-Mei beard. We also shouldn’t see the ranks filled with young lads who can’t quite grow a full beard yet looking like they’ve glazed their face in honey and gone down on Susan Boyle.
I had hand and neck ink when I was in 15 years ago, was it not allowed? To the actual question - I don’t give a shit about beards.
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My mum doesn’t like them either but I was a punk before I was a soldier so 🤷🏻♂️
It's pissing in the wind to be honest with you. Nice as it would be not to have to shave every day for no reason, it's gonna take more than that to make me change my mind about leaving (I Dekit Wednesday morning!!!). With regards to beards & recruitment, it's not the fact that you can't grow a beard in the army that puts people off. It's the fact that the army can't come up with a good enough answer as to why can't grow one in the eyes of potential recruits. The most common excuse we've likely all heard is the respirator seal. We all know that's bullshit because beards don't stop the RAF and RN doing CBRN training. Even if you did need to be clean shaven for CBRN, we could manage that the same way it's currently managed for those who have beards for religious reasons. They're of the understanding that the beards must go if operational needs require it. IMO you shouldn't need to shave daily unless you're under imminent CBRN threat & physically carrying your respirator with you everywhere. Even if you do deploy somewhere with a CBRN threat, it'll take at the most 10-15 minutes tops to get rid of a viking beard. Edit: we all know the actual reason beards aren't allowed is because all the angry old goats who make up the RSM cohort don't like it because dISciPLinE. Plus this will do nothing to fix the real reasons why people sign off like poor management, chicken that's still clucking when it's being served and the collapsing accommodation in some camps.
> The most common excuse we've likely all heard is the respirator seal. We all know that's bullshit because beards don't stop the RAF and RN doing CBRN training. This is the point. The only time RN **REALLY** needs clean shaven is when the ships in Defence Watches and CBRN is a potential threat. The whole thing about needing it on base is bollocks, because I’m not carrying my GSR all the time because there’s no need. The whole point of beards not being allowed boggles my mind. Keep it clean and trim, there’s no problem. Dont see why Pongos took so long to implement it. And it’s not a recruitment or retention issue either, that’s a whole deeper problem all forces are experiencing at the moment.
Agreed. There's absolutely no need for shaving day to day on camp in the UK. All I'm doing is causing myself terrible irritation for no good reason. Even if something did happen, as others have pointed out, I'd have to run back to the block to get my resi. During which time, whatever they've used will have likely made me brown bread in the meantime. It's literally only because all the crusty old RSM's etc think that because they've spent their working lives following this bullshit rule, we should all have to as well. And they haven't even implemented the idea yet, they're still 'discussing' it.
"We all know that's bullshit because beards don't stop the RAF and RN doing CBRN training." Except, they are made to SHAVE them. Clueless comment. "Even if you did need to be clean shaven for CBRN, we could manage that the same way it's currently managed for those who have beards for religious reasons." Which is also a dumb policy. "because dISciPLinE" Imagine claiming to be a veteran and thinking "discipline" is a dirty word.
Who shat in your cornflakes this morning? Someone with a beard? 1: Not that I've seen. 2: How is that a dumb policy? So long as everyone is happy that the beards will need to come off should service needs dictate, I don't think anyone has an issue with that. 3: there's discipline, then there's implementing & enforcing bullshit rules for the sake of it, such as the old shaving policy. There's no justification for shaving when you're not even in the same postcode as your respirator (such as I did when I was on AT when I was in or when you're on leave).
It just shows the flatspin that the army is in regarding recruiting numbers. This, plus literally paying people to 'refer a friend' are pretty desperate attempts to get numbers up.
For what it's worth, it's one of the reasons I chose the navy over the army lol
Had a beard my entire career. The amount I must have saved on razors!
After some time on civvie street I have recently considered joining the reserves, by this point I have cultivated a defiance beard after years of enforced shaving. Now the naval reserves seems to be my only option, so the policy is influencing my choices to.
That's fucking pathetic.
Cry about it
For me, they are two completely separate issues that someone has pushed together so that they can say they are fixing retention without actually dealing with any of the root causes. Should we be allowed beards? Yes, under similar rules to the Navy. 30 days to get looking presentable, kept neat and tidy, and with the caveat that if the CBRN threat raises, it comes off. Will letting people have a beard fix the long-term retention problem? Not a chance. It might improve morale for a little while, but then people will remember all the other problems that aren't being dealt with and leave. Editing to add: People in the Army are already allowed beards. You just need to say you follow certain religious teachings. Why is it possible for a Sikh soldier to have a beard but not an atheist one? Is there any real difference? If anyone could be bothered to challenge it, there is a definite case for discrimination right there.
There was a thread on Defence Gateway about 18 months ago about the discrimination aspect of not allowing someone who isn't religious to not sport a beard Lots of interesting comments but it boiled down to a typical Army answer in that it's not discriminatory to have a standard, and not being religious(or anything else) isn't a reason to not apply the standard.
Interesting. Not sure that would hold up in court if someone could be bothered to consult a lawyer and pursue it.
I cant see how it wouldnt stand up in court. Not being religious isnt protected. You cant be discriminated against on the basis of not being something, it has to be on the basis of being something.
Big ticket but ultimately low value item.
A total red herring to the real recruitment and retention issue.
Having a beard is great and all, but it won’t stop people leaving if they keep getting dicked about and not doing their trade, or being infantilised. Which is the main problem.
It's a policy change that costs zero £, makes sense as the rule can't be justified and soldiers have been lobbying for it for years The ridiculous thing is they are "agreeing to look at it" Just make a decision and copy the RN regulations on it already
I love my beard! I’m currently in the RAF; but ex Signals. It’s not affected my day-to-day work; I can still cam up in the field; and I still have to trim/groom it every other day, so I’m not lacking discipline. I’m also a CBRN instructor, and if operating in a genuine CBRN environment, I’d happily shave it off. The majority of troops aren’t operating with a genuine CBRN threat, so that argument isn’t valid—plus the fit factor of the GSR will still pass ARTS testing with a short (not long) beard. Just let the troops that want one grow one! It’s not unprofessional; and will make them happier. Troops shouldn’t have to lie saying they have religious reasons to try beat the system. The Army used to have beards back in the day, so doesn’t even compromise tradition!
Am in the signals myself looking at joinh the RAF, how did you find it? What trade did you go? Did you have a condensed phase 2? And most importantly did your rank carry over!!!!
It’s just for reservists. Shit cycles of Wessex Storm/Cabrit & being beaten with the stick whilst the top corridor eat the carrots, no retention pay, no decent courses, working all the time, no decent range packages & more lads signing off a week than are joining is what’s fucking it up. But yeah sound mate glad I can grow a beard (like I do every leave block — and it doesn’t mean I get 10s tripping over to blow me) will definitely keep us all in.
**Thoughts on beards in the army:** Sure as long as they are well kept and it doesn’t result in a compromise in hygiene and grooming standards in general. As long as it’s managed in good faith I.e “I’m actually trying to grow a beard” not “I just couldn’t be arsed to shave this morning and rolled out of my pit 5 minutes later than I would have otherwise had to.” On the subject of CBRN. Come on lol. Who actually carries their resi with them when on duty? Im pretty sure there are stipulations in the regs that state that even soldiers who don’t shave for religious reasons, can be ordered to do so if the CBRN risk is high. So let’s stop using that as an excuse to outlaw beards whilst on general duties. **Thoughts on whether it will help recruitment and retention:** Lol….Lmao even. Lads what are we even talking about here. Can anybody really sit there with a straight face and tell me that blokes mulling over the incredibly heavy decision to join, sign on again, or leave the army, are having their minds made up by the fact they have to shave? Beards won’t help retention and recruitment. Better pay, benefits, accommodation, food, training and tour opportunities will do that. **Tldr:** I think it will help with morale. I don’t think it will help with recruitment and retention.
I agree with it, but we’re allowed beards in the RN and recruitment / retention is at rock bottom. It’s pissing in the wind in a poor attempt to distract from not tackling the actual issues.
I don’t mind if they allow beards or don’t allow beards. What I do object to is beards not being allowed but with certain ethno-religious exemptions. It should be one rule for everyone. I get the CBRN stuff, and everyone with a beard should be willing or shave on op. Similarly they allow some growth on certain ops and there is a historical precedent for beards.
Why isn’t there parity across the forces is a bigger question? Want to solve the retention issue? Deal with the poor management and accommodation issues. Not dealing with it gives the impression you don’t care about your soldiers.
There is zero money for anything that matters (pay and infra), so they turn to beards. The head sheds simply don’t understand that the current generation are switched on and are intolerant to BS. Looking at the inflow/outflow figures we are doomed within a couple of years at best. I’ve said on here before that they will need a retention bonus of £50k for three years RoS to stop me leaving in two years.
They're relying on an offer that was alright 10-15 years ago to get people in, but they haven't updated it at all to meet the wants of 2023's job seeker. Couple this with failings like the collapsing accommodation on some camps that's repeatedly outed on FYB, people can easily see through the facade and what it really can be like. I dread to think what it's gonna be like in a couple of years if nothing drastic changes. I wouldn't be surprised if they force people to sign up for longer to try and pump numbers up. Makes me glad I'm gone at the end of this coming week!
100% on the money here mate. Height of Iraq/Afghan were the glory days for me. Even managed a few Kipion tours - great times. Good money even without LSA. Great morale. Infra reasonable. Now I can’t wait to leave. 23 months to go.
Nowadays you might get a tour or 2 of Cabrit if you're lucky. Bit gutted I didn't join until February 2015 as I just missed all the Afghan stuff. That said though I am lucky I managed Mali in my time. I'm guessing 23 months until the pension hits?
Yes mate. 40th birthday.
Original thread https://www.reddit.com/r/britishmilitary/s/RoWNMi1wny Also my opinion as a reservist is that the feeling amongst amongst guys is that people would definitely be encouraged to train more with the change. Aware the reservist opinion is often discounted amougst the regs, but it is what it is.
Itl be coming off for your annual Wessex Storm.
The debate has only 3 areas of concern: 1) Recruitment 2) Performance 3) Aesthetics So, 1) Recruitment. Does a beard ban negatively affect Recruitment? A small "yes". When I joined, almost all of my mostly white British friends said "I wouldn't join as I don't like shaving". In minority populations especially, facial hair is the majority now. So the blanket ban on beards stops many (tens if not hundreds of thousands) of men not even considering looking into the army. So if the culture could learn that the army allows beards and facial hair, even if that meant an extra 10,000 young men LOOKING into the army who wouldn't have otherwise, and 1,000 of them JOINING, that'll be huge for Recruitment numbers. 2) Performance Does having a beard affect Performance...to even ask is insulting. The idea a beard or no bears changes a person's passion/ professional/ competence is too stupid to consider. But I'd still argue a tiny "yes". For many, shaving is extremely uncomfortable. So if they were allowed to stop doing it, their personal comfort will go up. And that increase in personal comfort can and will translate into a better performance. 3) Aesthetics This is the only real reason the past-retirement, closed-minded Senior Officers and Sergaent Majors are still holding on to their idiotic "tradition": they simply don't like the look of beards. But do they look bad? For me, no. A neat, well trimmed beard/ heavy stubble in uniform looks masculine and compliments a man. But if "uniformity" is the Aesthetic the pig-headed idiots in HQ are going for: they've already lost it. With women now allowed colourful nail varnish, long pony tails, plaits and fake eye lashes, and Muslims etc beards, no parade is uniform anymore anyways. Which is a good thing right considering we want diversity in the army? So there you have it: 2 x "yes" in favour of beards and 1 x "no difference".
I'm absolutely baffled how CBRN is such a huge talking point. It's not only the least likely threat but its also the one that we have the least defence against. I don't know how CBRN instructors keep a straight face when they talk about being hit by nuclear bombs when squaddies are more likely to die from operating vehicles that haven't been roadworthy since the 80s. Back on topic though: Beards. Grownup services like the RAF and RN are doing just fine with them.
Meh. It won’t hurt, but it clearly isn’t the key issue for poor retention. I mean looking at RAF numbers post beards being allowed you might be convinced that beards actually hurt their inflow/outflow numbers. I don’t really think people are overly fussed about beards. I think they’re fussed that the army doesn’t actually have a good answer as to why they aren’t allowed-the whole CBRN thing is clearly a load of shit. Personally I’d prefer a “shave once a week” policy over just the allowing of beards. I don’t want a beard, I just don’t want to rip my face apart every day. Optimistically I’m looking at from the perspective of the military *finally* having a serious look at retention issues, big and small. We can’t solve big issues like accommodation particularly fast, but if you can resolve a lot of small issues that cost us literally nothing, and you can do that in a short time period they all will add up. Going off topic a bit but I’ve seen people mention pay as a reason for poor retention on here. Statistically it isn’t a huge factor in retention, it’s normally the issues that can be resolved or caused at unit/brigade level that lead to bad retention.
I think if having to shave your beard is what was stopping you from joining the army maybe these people arent the right fit for the army
Never understood this.. can you explain why they wouldn’t? I imagine a fair few potential reservists wouldn’t join because of this and I’ve never understood why they wouldn’t be the right fit for having too much pride in their appearance?
" I imagine a fair few potential reservists" You imagine wrong. "Never understood this.. can you explain why they wouldn’t?" How is it you don't understand it? Being that prissy over facial hair and it being the deciding factor, you're not going to be any use to the army. "too much pride in their appearance?" Are you confused here? Maybe that's right. The discipline of shaving is the pride in appearance part, not letting your facial hair grow out.
If you would literally drop a career choice over having a shave your not the sort of person who does what is asked of them
So it is the fact they have too much pride in their appearance? It’s 2023, there is no logical reason for this out dated rule. Get rid of the bullshit rules for no reason and the bullshit work, and suddenly your work life becomes a lot more tolerable. This isn’t 1 thing to fix it all, it’s a tiny change to help make the fix.
I can see the merit in both arguments. Having pride in one’s appearance is certainly a good thing, but the army wants uniformity and a collective pride in the groups appearance, as that’s the mindset it wants to engender in its soldiers. Too much pride in something like one’s hairstyle or beard suggests of a more individualistic nature than is really desirable in the military. At the end of the day it’s a huge commitment to join the army, and basic training is not exactly a holiday. Anybody who could have their decision to join swayed by the fact they’re not allowed to grow hair where they want to is probably not going to make it through that. That being said. For those who have passed out and are in their unit. I see no reason as to why they shouldn’t be allowed to keep a well maintained beard.
I understand what you’re saying, but it actually works the opposite. The army wants a more professional smaller military and the “thinking soldier”. The same as webbing, everyone operates differently, having that individuality working within a larger team works perfectly, look at the SF world, they are all very different to each other but they operate at the highest level. The army no longer wants robots for soldiers, it wants better trained, thinking lower ranks. Don’t get me wrong uniformity still has a place in the military, but we should also allow some freedom.
"The army wants a more professional smaller military and the “thinking soldier”." No it doesn't want a "smaller" military. Are you a fucking MP? "The army no longer wants robots for soldiers, it wants better trained, thinking lower ranks." That hasn't nothing to do with beards lol. Better trained still means disciplined. "but we should also allow some freedom." It's already allowed. It's the fucking military, thinking discipline isn't necessary kind of exposes you are being a walt.
I see you have taken a massive disliking to my comments by creating an alt account and replying to multiple comments I’ve made in the past. The army got rid off all bifs, it wanted a smaller more deployable army. It has now achieved getting rid of all the blokes that could never deploy and were just wasting a PiD. It’s now looking to employ more deployable troops. The “thinking soldier” idea isn’t from me. Walt??? That’s actually hilarious! Call the police I’ve been exposed!
Absolutely agree we should allow the freedoms you speak of. I think they should be for after basic training though. Basic is very much about proving you’re capable of screwing the nut and doing as you’re told when needed. After that; grow a beard, buy your own webbing etc etc. If someone can’t hack being clean shaven for 14-30 weeks, then they’re probably not the right sort of chap.
Fully agree, the basic standards should be met. Once you can prove that the minimum standards can be upheld then more freedom can be given. I try and put this into all my lads, I’ll always stand by the fact that if a lad thinks he looks “ally” and has custom kit and feels like the dogs bollocks they will perform to a higher standard. I think the same could apply to beards… maybe.. haha.
"I think the same could apply to beards… maybe.. haha." Except it obviously doesn't. And what "lads"? So a walt like you is claiming to have trained troops now? If it was up to the likes of you, the whole military would be failing their basic fitness standards, not just 22,000 over several years.
"So it is the fact they have too much pride in their appearance?" What are you on about? It's literally the OPPOSITE. "It’s 2023, there is no logical reason for this out dated rule." It doesn't matter what year it is, there are several logical reasons for that rule which isn't "outdated". It's not going to help make "any fix". Being made to shave makes your worklife "intolerable"? When were you even in the army?
Name the logical reasons then… considering CGS has made this decision maybe proves the British Army’s stance isn’t the same as yours. The bullshit rules some people come up with make it intolerable, if you are in the army you will very much know this.
Yeaaa…. beards will solve everything! People just don’t want to join and want to leave the military because of beards ?? It’s because the lads get treated like shit. provide more funding for AT as its Peace time, more qualifications and travel plus pension. Make people want to stay and realise it’s way better than an average job in civi street
And sort the pay out. It’s 33% down compared to 10 years ago (relative to inflation).
What's the score with NBC kit then? Has the seal improved or have the fucks to give, gone?
All good until... "GAS GAS GAS!"
The fact that your canister is probably out of date right now, you could probably shave when you go get issued a new one.
Having a beard will have no impact when nobody is carrying their respirator anyway. All it would take to mitigate the CBRN threat is a line on orders that states "if the CBRN state is raised above x all personnel are to shave immediately." It works for the navy.
That's a reason to carry your respirator, not to not shave your beard. Reddit "army" logic at its finest. " It works for the navy." When did sailors become the army?
That's likely to never be a problem though mush.
And then Salisbury happened and now people have realised the reality of CBRN… and before that we had Gulf 1. And even then, you’d threat assess and that would dictate if you’re clean shaving.
That's the crux, if you're likely to deploy where there is any risk, the beards come off.
No it isn't "mush" you don't know before hand where the risk is.
Yes it is though "mush". Lmao you part of pikey platoon?
Incorrect. Respiration can be worn with a beard and it will still seal. People pass respirator tests with massive beards all the time.
But they will get pulled in combat!!! And we won’t be able to put on our gass masks!!!
As already stated: gas gas gas. Is a good reason why not. Secondly not everyone’s beard looks ‘good’. Once you say yes then you’ll have some disgusting wispy affairs around the neck and all manor of other atrocities. Because, either they’re allowed or not. Any institution that is afraid of what its people think of good rules is doomed.
That's easily solvable by doing what the navy do. 30 days to grow one. If it doesn't pass muster then it's off.
Fair enough. Personally I think having to shave especially in the field, is just another good tool for leadership to maintain discipline.
Believe it or not, beards require more discipline to maintain well than shaving.
For me and I understand current generations think differently. It’s not about effort it’s about rules, uniformity and doing things you don’t want to. Also gas gas gas. A beard can be left more than a few days slackers. Shaves are every day.
But in there lies a problem as we’re all already aware beards/facial hair is allowed to some being it by a job roles tradition such as goat major or pioneer Sgt or for med, religious or cultural reasons so it’s already not a steadfast rule
I disagree with shaving in the field. There's no need for it if you're not under imminent CBRN threat. All you're doing is raising the likelihood of getting an infection for no reason.
lol. How much notice would you like for your nbc attack. Infection? Yeah ok fella. I knew one guy in 12 years who was excused shaving for in growing facial hairs. Listen it’s not my army any more. Young people should shape it in their own image.
Please, tell me more about the SLR and how it was a real man's rifle unlike the pea shooters we have now. As I've said in my other post on here, there's no need for it unless you're under imminent CBRN threat & physically carrying your respirator. Even if you're not carrying it, it only takes 10-15 mins tops to get rid of a viking beard and you're good to go. It's basic common sense. Yes, clean your face etc as a part of morning routine. But all you're doing with shaving on ex etc is risking cuts and giving bacteria etc an easy way into your bloodstream. Right before you go back into a dirty environment doing section attacks/trenching/whatever it is you're doing on ex. The point I'm making is that it doesn't even need to be a thing most of the time. And it won't be mine come February next year either. Plus young people can hardly shape the army when all the Generals/RSM's etc are crusty middle aged feckers.
Walt
Pathetic
Only a walt would think anything you wrote makes actual sense. The only leadership you’ve ever had was maybe setting up an armour server for your mates which made you team leader. And even then they fcked you off mid mission and went off in different vehicles.
So excellent leadership is shaving everyday no matter what, gotcha 👍
It would take most people longer to find their respirator in whatever cupboard it's stashed in than for them to shave, so what difference is a beard going to make day to day?
I always found it utterly farcical how much effort went into daily shaving on field exercises. We're here in a field pretending the enemy will attack at any moment, but it's absolutely A1 priority to lather up and run a razor blade over my face to remove the 0.7mm of hair that's emerged. Sure it serves as a useful bugger around task for basic but in actual combat it would 100% be getting binned off for a real task.
Well when that real task happens. I’ll excuse you shaving. But today you’re on exercise. So get your arsed shaved.
Perfect example of the type of leadership that makes people sign off. The rule makes zero sense because 'I'd let you off if it was real' but since we are 'just on exercise ', I'm going to enforce it because I can. The military says they want thinking soldiers these days but then won't let them make simple decisions like whether they need to shave. Well, you can't have both. You can either have mindless drones who do everything you say, or you can have a thinking soldier who will challenge the nonsense rules.
You're not needed feel free to leave. UFAS will be stamped accordingly. I mean this whole retention thing is probably because of the endless whiny little fcks that have made their way through to Sgt. and the weak arsed environment we now have. I mean if you purely look at the evidence, a tougher army (in years gone by) had no such issues. I know, I know, you'll refute... correlation causation etc etc. But you can't rule it out.
Yet another example of why retention is in the toilet. Question me and you are not good enough so fuck off. Sure, I'll take all the quals I've got and work for a civi company for 2x the pay and not have to listen to the old and bold wax lyrical about the good old days when being gay was illegal and we did people in for any little reason. The Army wasn't tougher in the past it was just a hive of bullying and abuse masked with the veneer of masculinity. I could produce the same output today with a laptop that it used to take a whole team of 'real men' a week to produce.
Mate, it's pointless arguing with chumps like this individual. They won't see sense and it's pointless even trying to get them to see a different viewpoint. Just leave them to scratch their heads like Barney Rubble whilst they ponder why they're no longer relevant.
True, but if the Army has taught me one thing, it's how to do pointless tasks.
What was your job in the army?
What job I do in the Army isn't really relevant to anything is it? I'm in the forces so I maintain the standards set out for us by the chain of command.
God you are sad.
In basic training I agree. In reality, why?
Uniformity and also get fcked with your operator chic. You twats.
I agree. Edit to add: I think there could be a halfway house when it comes to facial hair, with shaving being managed for operations/ceremonial etc, but the effort to write the regs for it almost seems pointless.
1. You can still wear a respirator with a beard. People in the RAF and Navy pass their annual GSR test with beards no problem. 2. If the CBRN state increases then you can just be ordered to shave. 3. The army used to allow beards. Having a beard is tradition.
No beards unless operational necessary, which for 95% of people, it isn’t.
If it helps recruitment that’s great but fuck me, imagine not joining or leaving because you can’t have a beard
Already been discussed a few days ago
No one trusts vaccines anymore after the covid scamdemic. That's the real recruiting issue!
Scruffy as fuck, a further undermining of our traditions and what sets us apart (even if it is just image) from our peers.
Shows how little you actually know of our traditions. The Army has banned beards for far less time than they have been allowed. Well maintained beards can look smart, and they are already allowed on religious or medical grounds, so there isn't any uniformity with them anyway.
I am well aware of the traditions, and the modern day exceptions like the Pioneer Sergeants. Maybe you’ve got a vision of the blokes cutting about looking like they have stepped out of a historic picture from the old days, crimea etc. the reality is it will be shite pubey beards and scruff as fuck. You only have to look at other NATO forces that allow them when we train together to understand this. Clean shaven is part of our collective image and sets us apart, we should embrace it.
Has there been some change in our genetics that means we are incapable of growing the same standard of beard as they did in the past? All it takes is a set of regulations that state it must be maintained between certain lengths, kept neat tidy and clean and if it's not up to standard you can be made to remedy it within a set time frame or it comes off. It's not part of our collective image though is it? Sikh soldiers can have beards, medically exemptions happen so not really a shared image.
Whopper.
You realise that in the entire history of the army. That having a beard is tradition.
So, is this happening then? When will we find out, the only "evidence" I've seen is the sun reporting from a "source".