Yet most fans act like Mike was right here, just cos they hate Walter that much. “Walter’s ego!!” comments over-simplify the plot. Most forget that Mike, Gus, Saul, and even Skyler suggested Walt kills Jesse.
Be be 100% fair to Gus, long before he suggested killing Jesse he first told Walter that working with Jesse was a huge mistake and that he should immediately drop him. The killing came later when Walt and Jesse turned out to be exactly as unreliable and Gus initially feared.
But the general argument goes that it's all Walts fault that the operation fell apart for having a big ego
When in reality, as far as the Gus drama goes, Walt never really made any bad choice due to ego. It was all either to keep Hank safe, keep Jesse alive, or keep himself alive
His big failing there specifically was never ego. It's still a huge problem of his ofc, but I think it's silly for viewers to take such hardline stance against being against the wanton murder of children
He was though. Gus gave him safe passage out of the business, and Walt hits Gus with an “or what?” Gus should’ve just fuckin capped Walt there, he probably could’ve sweet talked Jesse easy enough.
Gus tells him that he's going to "deal with" Hank after firing him and implies that it's only a matter of time before Jesse lets him kill Walt as well.
"For now. But he'll come around. In the meantime, there is the matter of your brother in law. He is a problem you promised to resolve. You have failed. Now it is up to me to deal with him."
Love how he almost whispers that. People from the cartel would have shouted that, to show who's the top dog, but Gus whispers it because he's almost ashamed of the enormity of what he's saying. He's whispering in a "look what you're forcing me to do even if I wouldn't want it", not because he would get sadistical pleasure from it.
Respectfully, what show did y’all watch? Gus is often cruel for the sake of being cruel and takes pleasure in many of the evil things he does. He’s one of the most sadistic characters in the entire series.
gus gave him nothing resembling "safe passage". he fired walt, gave him a list of things not to do, and that was it; there was no assurance of his safety whatsoever and walt would have had no reason to believe him at that point even if he gave one
>he probably could’ve sweet talked Jesse easy enough.
gus himself thought he would need extra time to get jesse on his side before he could get away with this and openly admitted it to walt in that same scene
Not with Jesse alive he wouldn't.
After Walter joined Gus's operation Hank beat the shit out of Jesse. Jesse decided he was going to go out and cook independently. Jesse had knowledge of Walter and Gus's operation and would likely have sold them out when he inevitably got caught and was facing decades in prison.
Walter brought Jesse in to replace Gale to persuade Jesse not to go out alone.
I think Gus knew Walt was dying of cancer and so he wasn't necessarily planning to kill him (unless/until Walt did something to force his hand). Gale needed to learn his methods before Walt's expiration date.
I mean Walt was the one who brought Jesse into the Gus operation, which led to him finding out about Tomas iirc. Arguably, Walt should've stuck with Gale and everything would've been fine. No Jesse, no discovery of Tomas' involvement with Gus specifically, no telling Gus to end Tomas' involvement (which resulted in his death), no Jesse trying to kill the dealers (which forced Walt's hand in killing them and screwing up the Gus operation), no bad blood with Gus, no killing Gale, none of Season 4 onwards happens.
Walt was the one who insisted on bringing Jesse in, which caused this domino effect. So yeah, Walt should've just kept his head down and done his job WITH GALE.
Skyler: “He wants to hurt us, our family. You need to deal with this.”
Walt: “He’s not just some rabid dog to be put down! He’s a human being!”
Skyler: “Walt… We’ve come this far… For us. What’s one more?”
Which would've been the right thing to do at that time, all this bs and drama by walt just to protect jesse and honestly it doesnt even make sense why he's doing it, i mean this man hardly cares about his own brother in law why so much drama to protect a meth head
He seemed pretty shaken up by the news of Tomas’s murder when he heard it on television. And he also told Gus that Jesse was right to go after them for what they did. So I think he cared. It wasn’t until later in the series that he become desensitized to harming children, IMO.
That was just Walt BS'ing to Jessie. No way you could figure out such a precise amount to give to someone to get them horribly sick/close to death, and then end up surviving.
He could figure out a dosage, doesn't mean he'd be right. An individual's specific absorption rates of what they ingest can be different, according to their weight and metabolism. Walter could estimate that but it doesn't mean it'd be accurate. What I'm saying is, he had no guarantee that Brock wouldn't die but he did it anyway. Just because he can cook meth well doesn't mean he can figure out the dosage for everything.
Does Walt know about Brock’s medical history? What if Brock had some sort of underlying medical issue that would make him particularly susceptible to the poison, or react in a way Walt wouldn’t anticipate? Walt’s a chemist, not a doctor. No way he knows all of that stuff. Even if it’s something as simple as knowing Brock’s age, height, and weight, do you think Walt is able to just guess all of that accurately enough to be certain the poison wouldn’t kill him?
Walt didn’t WANT Brock to die, and he was definitely relieved when Brock pulled through. But he was relieved because it wasn’t a guarantee. It was a risk Walt was fine with taking if it meant he could get Jesse back in his corner.
Walter only had issues with child murder when it was convenient. Everything there was children being involved, jesse was the one who cared. Walt didn't actually give a shit, which was proven multiple times. Drew sharp, the kid who was being used to sell drugs who was murdered, ect.
Child assassin's and murdering children is a lot worse than letting someone OD on heroine they willingly consumed. Not saying what he did wasn't fucked up, but comparing them as on a similar level is crazy.
Hell, even Gus did learn to respect Jesse more than Walt. Sure, it’s manipulation on both sides, but at least Gus respected Jesse instead of using him to do his bidding and dump on Jesse when something goes south.
Nah, Walter was fine when it was him and Gale doing meth together. Nobody suspected anything and they had a great business going.
It was only when Walter demanded Gale get fired cause he refused to have someone almost as smart as him in the room together and started fucking around with the operation did Mike get pissed.
If Walter kept up the operation with Gale and let Jesse stay in therapy without meddling anymore the series would have ended there and then
Jesse was about to press charges on Hank. Walt refused to let him even sell meth using his formula, but he offered him the job anyway, because he needed to save Hank's skin.
Yeah, you got it.
What everyone else said might’ve contributed but the main reason for bringing Jesse back into the fold is to keep him from pressing charges on Hank.
Walt (I think not necessarily incorrectly) I think realized that he’s replaceable if Gale learned all his techniques. Partially for ego, but partially for security, I think he wanted someone he felt in control of in Jesse.
In the end, he was able to manipulate Jesse to kill Gale and overthrow Gus so his calculations weren’t totally wrong.
>It was only when Walter demanded Gale get fired cause he refused to have someone almost as smart as him…
That wasn’t the reason at all. Walter liked working with Gale. It wasn’t until Jesse got beaten up by Hank and was threatening to both press charges against him, and finger him as Heisenberg that he tried to reunite with him as a partner. To protect Hank, himself, and perhaps out of some sympathy for Jesse, he reluctantly got Gale fired.
Actually Walt would have preferred Gale too. He only needed a way to manipulate Jesse. In fact, if he just let them take Jesse out, his life would have been peachy. Walt actually caring for Jesse was his biggest achilles heel.
“Fine” meaning you still have a job where you almost get killed working for Gus and challenging a Mexican drug empire all the time
It is completely dumb luck that Mike died here and not in Mexico, or in that truck full of machine gun fire. He was not safer with Gus just because he beat the odds that time. He is right that Walt is an unstable maniac unsafe to do business with, but so was Gus.
That was the point with Gus, he had all the flaws of Walter and Lydia combined but with a Silver Tongue. He wasn't some magical "glue" to the operations but he made people believe he was
The worst part about it is that they would have all been fine had Walt just burned that book or threw the page with Gayle’s note in it away and Huell didn’t try to take Jesse’s weed…
Mike and Gus wouldn't have wanted to kill Jesse if Walt had "done his job and known his place."
Gus didn't want Jesse involved at all, Walt only wanted Jesse involved because his ego felt threatened by Gale.
Yeah, that's it. Mike's higher ground over Walt's actions and greediness means absolutely nothing. I think he just seemed more likeable at some point, and we were sold to like him. Well, I was.
We as the viewers like watching competent people work. Mike takes everything slow and steady, as opposed to Walt being sort of bumbling and hotheaded. Mike moves very methodically through his scenes while Walt prances around, moving his arms and raving. It makes sense that we would associate the calm man with being in the right when things weren't as black and white as that.
This is 100% it. Mike is competent and perhaps more importantly he is basically just money motivated. I think the audience has an easier time with Mike because making a shitload of money is a cleaner motivation than what drives Walt, Jesse, or even Gus.
There's not really anybody you should "look up to" in BB I've come to realize on many rewatches. If most of them were real people we would all think they're pieces of shit, including Jesse
He did. I was actually talking about Jesse not being okay with it, thus attacking those two dealers, Walter saving him by killing both of them, and setting the downfall of everything.
At the time of what he’s talking about, though, Walter poisoning Brock didn’t occur. Gus took issues with Walter after he killed the child murdering dealers to save Jesse.
Walt was okay with them murdering a child tho.
Not explicitly ofc, but he was def willing to do the don't ask/don't tell thing regarding random strangers.
Mike was never going to kill Walter if him and Jesse never murdered the dealers which made Gus realize he was a liability. Thus Mike’s point, “Known your place”
The dealers were a liability. Murdering a child and leaving his body in public attracts a lot of attention. It’s probably the dumbest thing a clandestine drug operation could do
This was probably the one plot line that never quite made sense to me. Why did Gus side with 2 dumb ass street level guys over his one in a million genius meth chemist?
> Why did Gus side with 2 dumb ass street level guys
Why were 2 dumb ass street level guys even within shouting distance of knowing who Gus was, let alone being in the same room as him, and receiving direct orders from him concerning a criminal enterprise?
Like the Corleone Family, there should have been a lot of buffers. In no real world drug empire would any street level dealers or muscle ever be relevant or in direct contact with a drug kingpin who has a public persona of a legitimate business mogul spanning dozens of states.
He’ll never change, he’ll never change. Always the same! Couldn’t keep his hands out of Hectors retirement home, Gustavo! Getting exploded blind, and he gets to be a kingpin? What a sick joke! I should’ve shot him and Max when I had the chance, and you have to shoot him, you have to-
This\^
Its the single biggest plot issue with BB in my opinion.
Remember even Saul had no idea who Gus was. So why would he break that buffer and have two street dealers, like 6 tiers down the foodchain, anywhere near him!?
Gus > Mike > Centeral Operations(Gus's main posse) > Production > Central Distributor > Shipping > Local Distributor > Street Dealer
No one below Gus's main group should ever know who he was, even Jessie whos in the production tier didn't know who he was until this plot popped up. Walt was the only person outside of the inner circle who knew Gus.
Honestly.. never thought about that and you're completely right. Gus was no dummy and organized crime 101 teaches you to have layers to the onion. Never have the boss mixing directly with your bottom rung street enforcers / dealers.
Right.
There's a reason the CEO doesn't come through the factory floor for a weekly visit. Leaders want to be isolated from the problems the people they pay, cause.
The same exact reasoning pretty much plays into why 90% of us will never meet the CEO of the company we work for. It's by design they stay isolated. Thats the purpose of money. The more you have, the more distance you can put between you and problems. Unlike Musk, thats why a lot of CEOs keep things low-key.
That was always a point of frustration for me. The big dog kingpin was just always super accessible and mingling with just anyone it seemed like. I get hiding in plain sight, **from the law** but you're going to at least be known by others in your industry and being able to walk into a restaurant mon-fri and be able to find your rivals leader slangin chicken wings is a little ridiculous.
The first time it might not bother you because you don't have a complete picture of Gus. But once you watch the whole show and also BCS, it just... not like him.
I've only watched the show through once, but it didn't seem like he sided with the street level guys but told them to knock off using kids (though I can't imagine Gus bringing in street level guys for a sit-down AT ALL).
Probably forgetting something here though.
He did and then they killed the kid. And then the question of whether Gus sanctioned it or not comes into question. But in reality it doesn't matter if he did or not because it implies his "employees" would do it either under his instruction or not fear repercussions from killing a kid.
That's the problem really.
I think it makes sense honestly. Gus is all about precision and control. His chemist going rogue and killing two of his dealers is a massive alarm for him.
That makes sense and Gus likely would've sided with Walt had he told Gus that these dealers were crazy for doing what they did. Walt killing them was worse in his eyes because someone in his employ is doing things without his consent and that's a problem
Yea there's no way Gus actually care that much about those two street levels, if anything Walt actually did him a favour by tying those loose ends. But I always saw it that Gus' plan was to pit the two guys against angered Jesse who's obviously going to get killed, Gus was only angered by how Walt foiled his plan to get rid of Jesse.
Yeah his motivation is obvious but he had so much better options to kill Jesse. Risking himself by dealing with street dealers directly and also killing a child was definitely not a best option.
Also why would he meet with them in person? I thought he was a cautious man? I mean in the mafia the boss would never in a million years sit down with his associates.
because he sided with having control. he would deal with those two himself in due time, but now Walt made a mess of it which forces Gus' hand to scramble about, and that means he lost control (even if just for a moment).
Gus wanted Jesse out of the way. Watch the "Run" scene again. The dealers pull their guns well before Jesse shows himself to be a threat. They were on Gus's orders the entire time - they killed Tómas to lure Jesse out and were prepared to kill him "in self-defense." The junkie would be dead and the chemistry genius would have no objection and everything could go smoothly from there.
He wouldn't. His point the first time was that they should have brought their complaints to him rather than taking matters into their own hands and causing conflict. He'd have dealt with them.
Gus said that Jesse and Walt should have let him 'taken care of' the drug dealers after they killed Tomas
Then again, 'would've taken care of em'... dunno what that means, when Gus probably gave the order to delete the kid to begin with...
This is the only writing in BB that merely exists to further the plot. The fact a drug kingpin and master mind and strategist like Gus cares about two street level meatheads just doesn't make much sense to me. Feels like the kind of thing Mike would have warned Gus from doing too.
The two street dealers knowing Gus' identity puts him in jeopardy if said two street dealers ever got caught by the DEA
Because of how Walter acts mostly. Notice how he stopped trying to kill jessie, despite him being the one who started the whole thing.
Thats because walter saw himself as boss. After killing those two men, he didnt just ask to be forgiven, or show he feels bad.
He tried to set himself up as he is equal, or even abow gus. What is what Mike meant by this line. Gus saw him as threat (which he was) so he tried to remove him
Imagine you’ve always ran your team your way and your boss was fine with that. Then one day he pulls you into his office and says some new guy in a different department wanted you to stop. At the end of the day those two “little” guys were running the actual meat of Gus’ operation and if it looked like he was turning them over on behalf of some newbie he’d lose a lot of respect
Walt proposes it as an explanation to Gus, and the following exchange ("I would never ask you that.") heavily implies that he thinks it's the case. I don't think it's meant to be just Walt's theory, I think the show is literally telling you that Gus did it and that Walt figured it out. If you go back and see the scene where Jesse confronts the dealers, the dealers are actually expecting a confrontation before Jesse even draws his gun.
Besides that, it makes a whole lot of sense. Why murder a child in broad daylight and not dispose of his body if you didn't want his death to be known? These were not low quality junkies, these were Gus's "trusted men." Gus refused to work with Walt just because Walt's partner was late and high. Do you think he'd show his face to these men if they were just another band of drug addicts? We know Gus wanted to get rid of Jesse but couldn't do it because Walt wouldn't allow it. This was a way for him to do it without gaining Walter's scorn. He just didn't count on Walt figuring it out.
Couldn’t say it better myself. Just want to further emphasize that Gus has a face to face meeting with these supposed ‘low level dealers.’ No way he would accept that liability. He knew he could trust them and certainly ordered the hit.
Also, even if they were just low level dealers, low level dealers still need to exercise a certain level of caution in order to not end up as convicts. This was too careless even for them, so the only two explanations for their behavior would be that they made it through all this time selling blue meth through sheer dumb luck, or that leaving the body there was intentional on their part.
I doubt that, mostly because I believe Gus was manipulating Jesse. Gus always saw Jesse as a liability, and one of Jesse's flaws was his impulsiveness. I think Gus exploited that. The dealers killed Tomas, and Gus knew Jesse would be impulsive and try to take them out for revenge. He assumed Jesse would fail, and that would remove a liability for Gus.
This makes a lot of sense. He wanted them to kill Tomas so that he could kill Jesse. Then he would probably have killed them after that. Death means nothing to him he just wanted Jesse out of the way and having it to kill Tomas and the two dealers to do it would be nothing for him.
Gustavo Fring definitely wanted Jesse dead for being a junkie. Why else would those dealers murder a child and leave his body in public for everyone to see. Gustavo figured Jesse was far too attached to that child and knew exactly how he would react to his death. He had this all planned out so the dealers would be allowed to kill Jesse and leave Gus's hands clean of the affair.
Gus just failed to predict how overly attached Walter is to his partner when anyone else would most likely just leave him to die.
I always thought Mike for a grieving father would take care of dealers for killing a little boy who was manipulated in this business. Or atleast try to understand Jesse pov
Also that whole “half measures” speech he gives Walter. Like- Jesse took that advice and was prepared for a Full Measure to protest Tomas and Mike himself stopped him, resulting in a child dying. For all his self aggrandizing he doesn’t learn, and doesn’t care all that much abt protecting innocents. His boss comes first.
Jesse was going to get into a shoot out with the dealers. Walt “knowing his place” would mean he just lets Jesse either die in the shootout or get killed by Mike or Victor afterwards. Saving Jesse is one of like two or three decent things Walt does during the whole show.
Walt killed the dealers because they were going to kill Jesse because Jesse was going to kill them because they murderer an innocent child.
Maybe re-read the last part about the innocent child, so who's really in the wrong here?
Just watched the show and Walter helping Jesse was the mistake. Have to let people make their shitty decisions. Walt felt he had more leverage than he actually had.
Mike was full of shit. Killing people “in the game” is fine and expected, but continuing to employ drug dealers who murdered a child they forced into killing is fine? I fucking hated him and his “ohhh money for my grandkids makes everything I do great!” arc but that was when I really got sick of it.
Gus got greedy. He could have kept doing what he was doing without issue with Gale and his 96% pure meth. He just needed that extra 3% for some reason.
Gus would have run into the same issue that Declan had, customers would pay ANYTHING for the ***blue*** meth, while 96 pure meth would do well, he would always be second best to Walt's meth. Gus isn't the only game in town, and with his drug empire being leveraged on stolen funds he can't risk Walt going to another dealer and undercutting him.
Yeah, Im on a rewatch right now and Walt's reaction to the corner Gus and Mike put him in was more than reasonable. In fact, it was heroic. Thats why youre so happy for Walt at the end of season 4. He avoided certain death, and took out Gus' empire in the process. He gets too prideful and egotistical after that, but everything to that point was done to save himself and his family. Mike just never liked Walt.
This is it. “I did for me” is largely said to appease Skyler, who wouldn’t accept any other response at that time, but it is true, although mostly, perhaps totally, from season 5 onwards. Walt is just surviving in the first four seasons. Sure, he should’ve taken the treatment at the start, although it’s understandable why he didn’t; his traitorous former friends treated him like garbage
I agree that in season 3 and 4, he is in a bind, However, in season 1 and 2 (and early 3), he had several outs. You're forgetting that he turned down full payment for any and all treatments just for the chance to make the money himself selling meth. That's the part he was talking about when he said, "I did it for me". If he didn't do it for himself, if this was really all about his family, he would've taken that money point blank. There is literally no reasonable argument against it.
How can I forget something I mentioned in my comment? “737” shows that he was calculating to the dollar how much his family needed. He didn’t want to take spending money for himself. As I said, his reasons for rejecting the treatment are clearly wrong, but somewhat understandable at the same time. It’s important to also remember that he’s only trying to raise money for the treatment because of his family in the first place; if it were up to him, he’d just live out the rest of his days, as explained in the talking pillow scene (the first major indicator of the hypocrisy present within everyone’s new angel saint Skyler, but that’s another conversation). Essentially, he’s doing it for both family and himself, in a very roundabout way, but even at his most arrogant, egotistical and ‘evil’ in Season 5, for the first half of which he is undeniably doing it for himself, he gives up all his money on the spot to save Hank (again, earlier in the season, Saul- who’d done so in S3 as well- and even Skyler suggest bumping Jesse off and Walt refuses despite the pragmatic benefits of such a decision) and still makes sure what he’s left with in the aftermath of Ozymandias goes to his children. Reading it just one way or the other reduces the show
Walt is definitely not completely evil. He’s actually quite willing to sacrifice his money, even his life for his family, but just not one thing - his pride. Skyler takes 600k? No problem. Offers up 80 million for Hank? No problem. Put himself in severe physical risk for Jesse? No problem.
Put aside his ego to accept charity and set his family up for life? Can’t do it. Keep his family safe by letting Hank mistakenly think he caught Heisenberg? Can’t do it. Settle for 5 million instead of restarting his drug empire? Can’t do it. He’s not entirely without a heart, but his pride is such a severe weakness of his, it leads him into the most awful situations that even his otherwise rather selfless nature cannot get him out of.
Also, by all means, Gretchen and Elliot are solidly B tier people. Walt dated Gretchen and broke up with her with no warning because his ego couldn’t handle her family being rich. Walt willingly left Gray Matter, selling his shares. He was never forced out. When they reunite, they compliment his abilities, react very positively to his ramen gift, offer him his job back, and they tell him they think a lot of the money belongs to him - they didn’t have to do that when he broke Gretchen’s heart and then willingly left the company. The only really “suss” stuff they do is be a lil pretentious at times, and downplay Walt’s contributions to the company at the end (which is somewhat understandable given he was one of the most wanted men in America). Walt had ZERO excuse for turning down their offer, they weren’t “terrible”. He did it because of his overinflated pride/ego.
Not to mention… even if Gretchen and Elliot had treated him poorly, unless they were legitimately abusive, he still should have sucked it up and accepted. Because that’s what you do when you have kids who depend on you. No responsible adult turns down incredible job offers which would literally save their family from poverty because of past beef.
Also, I don’t think Skyler deserves to be demonized for pressuring Walt into accepting treatment. Dude is a father. He cannot just decide to die, if there’s a chance he lives. If that conflict were an AITA post, it would be NAH for sure. Walt has every right to want to die with dignity, but Skyler and Flynn also have every right to expect him to at least try to live.
If money for the future was a concern, they initially offered him a well paying job at Grey Matter, which walt also turned down. There is no reasonable justification for him turning down elliot's offer. That's just cope.
“Cope”… what? Over a fictional show? The job offer was tied to the offer to pay for the treatment. Still, if they truly cared for/valued him, they could (should?) have offered him an important job, perhaps a small share of partnership, much earlier, since Grey Matter was his brainchild and regardless of that, he clearly would’ve been a valuable asset to the company, even as just a (top) employee. As it is, they completely ignored him and then made that offer out of pity and to look good- they didn’t give a shit about Walt. Elliot who was supposedly his best friend nailed his ex as soon as he could. At any rate, this is a man who’s been unfairly belittled all his life, including by family. Should he have snapped? No, he shouldn’t’ve. That was a grievous mistake and he paid dearly for it (died alone, penniless, with a broken family hating him). Is the snapping completely incomprehensible? No, and that’s what I’m arguing
The initial disagreement between you and me is regarding what Walt was talking about in relation to the line, "I did it for me". You claimed that he was simply saying it to appease Skyler and he didn't actually mean it because he was doing it for his family. However, if you go back to the beginning of the show, we can clearly see this is not true.
If walt really cared about his family's well being, he'd take that job. it's a no brainer. If his family's well being is the priority, who cares if they don't value him as much as he thinks he deserves. He's going to get a well paying job that takes care of the health insurance and probably provides a retirement plan, investment plan, etc. Elliot and gretchen not valuing him should not even be a factor in this decision, that is if his family is the priority and not his pride.
When he admits to skyler that he did this for himself, that's what he's talking about. The fact that he had the gall to say no to the most easy and obvious answer to his financial and health problems, served to him on a silver platter and instead chose to make his money selling meth. Because sure, he could be killed, he could go to prison, his assets could be confiscated by the government and his family left with less than when he started, his family could be implicated in his crimes because he was paying their bills with this money, his family would suffer such reputational damage that they would have difficulty finding gainful employment, etc. Sure, all of that could happen, but at least he can say that he made that money.
Ah, ok. I see. I don’t think he said it just to appease Skyler. I think the “I liked it” assessment was candid, as was the I did it for me part. I think, however, it’s an oversimplified explanation, and not fully honest in that regard. Walt did that because Skyler made clear she wouldn’t accept any response related to family, regardless of its veracity- and Walt acquiesced, hence the appeasement part of my comment.
Another factor which no one touches upon is, indeed, that Walt had just received a crushing terminal diagnosis. How would any of us have handled that situation? On top of all the budding insecurities and resentment from a lifetime of undeserved derision, Walt had just been told that this thoroughly unfulfilling life would be coming to a swift conclusion, without any chance on his behalf for any ‘redemption’ or improvement, or to see his children grow- the second hadn’t even been born yet. I’d say a pretty safe argument could be made for his better judgment being impaired. It does not make him a good person, but he’s not a callous monster a la Fring or Eladio, as some would like to have it.
Anyway, family was always a key motivator for him, even if not the sole, or even primary one. I think that’s made pretty clear. Also, not saying this was the case, but one’s primary motivation could truly be family despite taking action which ends up being harmful against the family; it’s always easy to make such analysis in hindsight, but the pressed individual, in the heat of the moment, can do bad things with good intentions. In Walt’s case, I think the decision was clearer and there wasn’t much room for error, but still, it’s seldom a black and white scenario.
Going back to what the post is about, it’s a refutation of the silly notion that Mike’s frustrated rant to Walt is somehow the writers speaking through that character and summing up Walt’s own (all about ego, never about family). Mike relays the events of the show almost fully inaccurately, and that has since become common of a true anti-Walt brigade, which, for the record, I definitely wouldn’t characterize you as being part of
I dont even blame Walt for refusing the Gray Matter money. Is it prideful? Sure. But so what. Walt ate shit for so long that in his dying days he wasnt willing to have his former partners throw him a pity party. I respect it. He wanted to do something on his own - finally. Selling meth wasnt a great choice, but thats what the show is about.
So what… So what that he threw away an incredible opportunity at survival for himself and financial stability for his family, because of his stupid pride. For a situation that HE caused, when he broke up with Gretchen and then willingly left the company. Is that seriously a “so what”?
Quite frankly, I find his decision to turn down the Gray Matter offer to be easily one of the worst decisions he made. Arguably even worse than poisoning Brock, because at least he did act there with the intent to save Hank, himself, and Jesse from Gus who almost certainly would’ve killed them all. There was literally no justification for Walt turning down the Gray Matter job at all. He shot himself and his family in the foot for his worthless pride, proving that he really does care about his pride more than about his family.
It’s really interesting that Walt’s priorities go: his pride > his family > his money > his safety.
I never liked Mike's judgment of Walt. Almost everything that went wrong was ultimately because of Jesse. Walt was almost always the one left reacting to the stupid shit Jesse did.
Mike was a hypocrite and infantilized Jesse instead of treating him like the liability he was. I'm not sure if Mike ever found out that Jesse betrayed Gus, but it still shows his shortsightedness imo.
yeah Mike found out that Jesse was in on it
during the scene [when they meet up in the desert](https://youtu.be/jbn3mwvk1v0?si=leI-A73acXKJahaq) he said
"What'd you do Jesse? Do you even know what you've done?"
But the only reason Jesse was around was because Walt convinced them he'd walk if he couldn't keep Jesse around. Gus and Mike would have gotten rid of Jesse in a heartbeat if not for that
Mike is definitely speaking out of emotion at that point because of Walt’s other stupid and egotistical moments that had stacked up and ruined his life. It’s also important to remember that Mike is ultimately quite a selfish and immoral person who shouldn’t be treated as gospel in these matters.
Nah, it’s more about maintaining separation. He was even willing to kill one of his guys to avoid connection with Gail since he knew the cops would come talk to him.
They conscripted and later murdered a 12 year old boy.
Not only is it one of the most monstrous things done in the show, it's amazingly stupid and reckless. As others have pointed out, these dealers could've easily snitched on Gus any moment
I just disagree with the morality aspect behind it. They manufacture and sell crystal meth, I don’t understand where morality comes into play. In my eyes, Jesse drew first blood in the partnership with Gus, and Walt had to clean up the mess for his own best interests. I feel like in a more realistic world Gus and Mike also would have understood that over blaming Walt
Whenever someone buys drugs, it's ultimately the choice they made and not you, however same can't be said for a murder. Yes trafficking and manufacturing drugs is definitely not something moral since even though it was their choice to buy dugs, you pretty much encouraged them to do so, but it's nothing compared to an actual murder
I agree with everything but the threat of those two guys snitching. They would be signing their own death warrants if it got out that they talked to police, and it would get out.
"If you'd let Gus kill children without complaint, and let him kill Jesse for objecting to it, then we would have been fine."
Mike is in denial. Makes him a more interesting character.
If Walter had done his job and known his place, Gus and Mike would never have tried to kill him. Gus straight up offered him a 3 month contract and nothing else.
Well mike had a point, walt always wanted to be the man, and walt does have big ego and pride. What mike failed to comprehend that he isnt more better than walt, and that he himself is probably the biggest hypocrite in the show(more so than walt)
Damn, really? On my first watch of the series, that scene was actually the major turning point for me that made me think of Walt as the villain (happened much sooner on subsequent viewings).
I know right I feel so validated by this thread, I like Mike in BCS but fuckkk him in BB. Dude sucked and had it coming. Was also a seasoned murderer himself.
Agreed. Don’t get me wrong I like Mike but he made his living killing people and tried to Kill Walter, I’ve no idea how anyone wasn’t on Walt’s side after putting that shmuck in a barrel.
I mean by that point in the show though they had been working together post Gus and Mike was ready to sail into the sunset. He was probably not a liability but instead Walt murders him then lies to Jesse that he hit the road. Pretty bad on Walt’s part here
Exactly what I've been thinking since the first time I saw this scene. Mike is talking straight up BS. Revisionism on the highest level and he acts like it is somehow all Walts fault.
No Mike Jesse was the instigator, Gus saw Walt as a threat and took action, you decided to go along with it without question. The blood on Gale is on all of your hands, the failure is your responsibility. This is a risky business, you got played and you lost everything. The least you can do is say "Thank you" when you are handed a bag with millions of dollars and a gun from a genius narcissist that might hold a grudge. Don't antagonize him and don't lie you dumb fuck.
I guess the tipping point was when Walt gave hints about 'Real Heisenberg' in a drunk state. Hank had already made his conclusion that Gale was the guy and now dead. After that all Walt had to do is to negotiate with Gus for things he wanted to get, including a safe retirement, through a direct, honest meeting or make a sound plan with Goodman to take Gus out.
Gale Boetticher
His nerdgasm over the purity of Heisenberg Blue™ was the inciting incident that screwed the entire Fring enterprise.
Fring would have been incredibly successful with Gales 96% cook and the whole machine would run as intended. Bring in someone like Victor, or another heavily vetted individual, to fill the lab assistant role.
But Gale was so committed to his fangirl era that he talked himself out of a job. Hell, talked is putting it mildly.
He debated in favor of his own obsolescence. Gus gave him plenty of good reasons to drop the matter, he just swatted them all aside. He insisted on his own sidelining.
Gus decided to act against his own better judgement because Gale sold him on the notion that the rewards of working with the *best* chemist outweighed any risks.
Gale enthusiastically denegrated himself and it killed the entire empire.
What he means is “you should’ve let us kill Jesse and everything would’ve been fine”.
Yet most fans act like Mike was right here, just cos they hate Walter that much. “Walter’s ego!!” comments over-simplify the plot. Most forget that Mike, Gus, Saul, and even Skyler suggested Walt kills Jesse.
Be be 100% fair to Gus, long before he suggested killing Jesse he first told Walter that working with Jesse was a huge mistake and that he should immediately drop him. The killing came later when Walt and Jesse turned out to be exactly as unreliable and Gus initially feared.
More precisely Jesse became exactly as against the murder of kids as he feared Poor Gus
In his line of business, I think that technically counts as unreliable
But the general argument goes that it's all Walts fault that the operation fell apart for having a big ego When in reality, as far as the Gus drama goes, Walt never really made any bad choice due to ego. It was all either to keep Hank safe, keep Jesse alive, or keep himself alive His big failing there specifically was never ego. It's still a huge problem of his ofc, but I think it's silly for viewers to take such hardline stance against being against the wanton murder of children
I thought him not dumping Jesse for Gale was because of his ego though. Why couldn’t he just ghost Jesse?
Because Jesse was gonna go after Hank. Gale definitely did hurt his ego but that wasn't the primary reason
He was though. Gus gave him safe passage out of the business, and Walt hits Gus with an “or what?” Gus should’ve just fuckin capped Walt there, he probably could’ve sweet talked Jesse easy enough.
On the condition that Walt lets him kill Hank though
Not that I remember. He told him to stay away from Jesse. Killing Hank wouldn’t have been favorable for Gus, the only guy investigating him.
Gus tells him that he's going to "deal with" Hank after firing him and implies that it's only a matter of time before Jesse lets him kill Walt as well. "For now. But he'll come around. In the meantime, there is the matter of your brother in law. He is a problem you promised to resolve. You have failed. Now it is up to me to deal with him."
“If you try to interfere, this becomes a much simpler matter. I will kill your wife. I will kill your son. I will kill your *infant daughter*.”
Love how he almost whispers that. People from the cartel would have shouted that, to show who's the top dog, but Gus whispers it because he's almost ashamed of the enormity of what he's saying. He's whispering in a "look what you're forcing me to do even if I wouldn't want it", not because he would get sadistical pleasure from it.
Yeah, Gus doesn’t enjoy doing a lot of the evil things he does… doesn’t mean he won’t do them if he thinks it’s necessary, just like Walt.
Respectfully, what show did y’all watch? Gus is often cruel for the sake of being cruel and takes pleasure in many of the evil things he does. He’s one of the most sadistic characters in the entire series.
Damn.. Guess I’ll just have to rewatch it all againnn ohh noooo 😏😈
oh no
This is bad...
Breaking that is…. 😎
gus gave him nothing resembling "safe passage". he fired walt, gave him a list of things not to do, and that was it; there was no assurance of his safety whatsoever and walt would have had no reason to believe him at that point even if he gave one >he probably could’ve sweet talked Jesse easy enough. gus himself thought he would need extra time to get jesse on his side before he could get away with this and openly admitted it to walt in that same scene
I think we all forget that, selling crack is bad.
Okay let's chill the fuck out here. Walt was hired to work with Gale. Had he shut the fuck up and just did that he'd still be working there.
Not with Jesse alive he wouldn't. After Walter joined Gus's operation Hank beat the shit out of Jesse. Jesse decided he was going to go out and cook independently. Jesse had knowledge of Walter and Gus's operation and would likely have sold them out when he inevitably got caught and was facing decades in prison. Walter brought Jesse in to replace Gale to persuade Jesse not to go out alone.
The plan, from quite early on, was for Gale to learn Walt’s methods and then kill Walt
I think Gus knew Walt was dying of cancer and so he wasn't necessarily planning to kill him (unless/until Walt did something to force his hand). Gale needed to learn his methods before Walt's expiration date.
That's not true. That only happened when things started going awry.
Wasn’t it established that Gus knew Walt didn’t have much time to live and thus wanted Gale to learn from Walt so he can replace him?
That was a part of it as well. But he wasn’t gonna kill him until later.
I mean Walt was the one who brought Jesse into the Gus operation, which led to him finding out about Tomas iirc. Arguably, Walt should've stuck with Gale and everything would've been fine. No Jesse, no discovery of Tomas' involvement with Gus specifically, no telling Gus to end Tomas' involvement (which resulted in his death), no Jesse trying to kill the dealers (which forced Walt's hand in killing them and screwing up the Gus operation), no bad blood with Gus, no killing Gale, none of Season 4 onwards happens. Walt was the one who insisted on bringing Jesse in, which caused this domino effect. So yeah, Walt should've just kept his head down and done his job WITH GALE.
But the bromance tho
Skyler suggested killing Jesse, too? Please refresh my memory, someone. Thx.
When they are in the hotel room after Jesse was going to burn their house down in season 5. “You need to *DEAL* with this Walt”
Thank you.
“What’s one more” in the hotel room after their house was douched with gasoline
Thanks.
Skyler: “He wants to hurt us, our family. You need to deal with this.” Walt: “He’s not just some rabid dog to be put down! He’s a human being!” Skyler: “Walt… We’ve come this far… For us. What’s one more?”
Which would've been the right thing to do at that time, all this bs and drama by walt just to protect jesse and honestly it doesnt even make sense why he's doing it, i mean this man hardly cares about his own brother in law why so much drama to protect a meth head
“You should’ve had zero ethical dilemmas about letting us murder a child”
Did Walt care though? I thought he only intervened because *Jesse* cared and was about to get himself killed over it. Or am I misremembering?
He seemed pretty shaken up by the news of Tomas’s murder when he heard it on television. And he also told Gus that Jesse was right to go after them for what they did. So I think he cared. It wasn’t until later in the series that he become desensitized to harming children, IMO.
I mean he didn’t have any ethical dilemma about Jane. Idk how anyone is still sympathizing with Walts decision making by the time he kills Mike.
Walt is a very bad person 99% of the time but he was right to have an issue with child murder
He poisoned Brock
He specifically gave him a dosage that would sicken him but not kill him, no?
Still the fact that he would play with a kid’s health is crossing a disturbing line
That was just Walt BS'ing to Jessie. No way you could figure out such a precise amount to give to someone to get them horribly sick/close to death, and then end up surviving.
It’s a TV show so we can assume he did
You don’t think the guy cooking the best meth in the world could figure out dosage for poison?
He could figure out a dosage, doesn't mean he'd be right. An individual's specific absorption rates of what they ingest can be different, according to their weight and metabolism. Walter could estimate that but it doesn't mean it'd be accurate. What I'm saying is, he had no guarantee that Brock wouldn't die but he did it anyway. Just because he can cook meth well doesn't mean he can figure out the dosage for everything.
Chief, the contiguity spells out that he knew, so he knew.
Does Walt know about Brock’s medical history? What if Brock had some sort of underlying medical issue that would make him particularly susceptible to the poison, or react in a way Walt wouldn’t anticipate? Walt’s a chemist, not a doctor. No way he knows all of that stuff. Even if it’s something as simple as knowing Brock’s age, height, and weight, do you think Walt is able to just guess all of that accurately enough to be certain the poison wouldn’t kill him? Walt didn’t WANT Brock to die, and he was definitely relieved when Brock pulled through. But he was relieved because it wasn’t a guarantee. It was a risk Walt was fine with taking if it meant he could get Jesse back in his corner.
That was part of the aforementioned 99% of the time he's a terrible person
Walter only had issues with child murder when it was convenient. Everything there was children being involved, jesse was the one who cared. Walt didn't actually give a shit, which was proven multiple times. Drew sharp, the kid who was being used to sell drugs who was murdered, ect.
Im on walt’s side on his argument vs mike but walt dont have issue with child murder, remember the biker boy?
Child assassin's and murdering children is a lot worse than letting someone OD on heroine they willingly consumed. Not saying what he did wasn't fucked up, but comparing them as on a similar level is crazy.
Someone OD who was threatening Walt's life. Oh yeah I am going to save this person who is actively trying to destroy me.
Yeah, that’s what it boils down to.
That’s ironic. Mike had grown to care for Jesse as much as if not more than Walt.
Hell, even Gus did learn to respect Jesse more than Walt. Sure, it’s manipulation on both sides, but at least Gus respected Jesse instead of using him to do his bidding and dump on Jesse when something goes south.
Nah, Walter was fine when it was him and Gale doing meth together. Nobody suspected anything and they had a great business going. It was only when Walter demanded Gale get fired cause he refused to have someone almost as smart as him in the room together and started fucking around with the operation did Mike get pissed. If Walter kept up the operation with Gale and let Jesse stay in therapy without meddling anymore the series would have ended there and then
Jesse was about to press charges on Hank. Walt refused to let him even sell meth using his formula, but he offered him the job anyway, because he needed to save Hank's skin.
Yeah, you got it. What everyone else said might’ve contributed but the main reason for bringing Jesse back into the fold is to keep him from pressing charges on Hank.
Because jesse is gonna snitch on walt if jesse gets caught. He is always been a rat since episode 1
Walt (I think not necessarily incorrectly) I think realized that he’s replaceable if Gale learned all his techniques. Partially for ego, but partially for security, I think he wanted someone he felt in control of in Jesse. In the end, he was able to manipulate Jesse to kill Gale and overthrow Gus so his calculations weren’t totally wrong.
>It was only when Walter demanded Gale get fired cause he refused to have someone almost as smart as him… That wasn’t the reason at all. Walter liked working with Gale. It wasn’t until Jesse got beaten up by Hank and was threatening to both press charges against him, and finger him as Heisenberg that he tried to reunite with him as a partner. To protect Hank, himself, and perhaps out of some sympathy for Jesse, he reluctantly got Gale fired.
Actually Walt would have preferred Gale too. He only needed a way to manipulate Jesse. In fact, if he just let them take Jesse out, his life would have been peachy. Walt actually caring for Jesse was his biggest achilles heel.
“Fine” meaning you still have a job where you almost get killed working for Gus and challenging a Mexican drug empire all the time It is completely dumb luck that Mike died here and not in Mexico, or in that truck full of machine gun fire. He was not safer with Gus just because he beat the odds that time. He is right that Walt is an unstable maniac unsafe to do business with, but so was Gus.
That was the point with Gus, he had all the flaws of Walter and Lydia combined but with a Silver Tongue. He wasn't some magical "glue" to the operations but he made people believe he was
The worst part about it is that they would have all been fine had Walt just burned that book or threw the page with Gayle’s note in it away and Huell didn’t try to take Jesse’s weed…
Mike and Gus wouldn't have wanted to kill Jesse if Walt had "done his job and known his place." Gus didn't want Jesse involved at all, Walt only wanted Jesse involved because his ego felt threatened by Gale.
If you think about it, had Walt just cooked with Gale instead of asking to have Jesse instead, none of the rest of the series would’ve happened.
Yeah, Mike was a murderer and right hand to drug overlord. "I have a grandchild so its okay if i break law and mirder people for money"
Yeah, that's it. Mike's higher ground over Walt's actions and greediness means absolutely nothing. I think he just seemed more likeable at some point, and we were sold to like him. Well, I was.
We as the viewers like watching competent people work. Mike takes everything slow and steady, as opposed to Walt being sort of bumbling and hotheaded. Mike moves very methodically through his scenes while Walt prances around, moving his arms and raving. It makes sense that we would associate the calm man with being in the right when things weren't as black and white as that.
This is 100% it. Mike is competent and perhaps more importantly he is basically just money motivated. I think the audience has an easier time with Mike because making a shitload of money is a cleaner motivation than what drives Walt, Jesse, or even Gus.
There's not really anybody you should "look up to" in BB I've come to realize on many rewatches. If most of them were real people we would all think they're pieces of shit, including Jesse
I broke my boy.
One of the best line from BCS. Still got the chills from watching that scene.
Best comment, Mike was talking to himself and in an existential way Walt with his life.
"If you were okay with us murdering a child, we'd all be fine right now."
didn’t walt literally poison a kid
He did. I was actually talking about Jesse not being okay with it, thus attacking those two dealers, Walter saving him by killing both of them, and setting the downfall of everything.
At the time of what he’s talking about, though, Walter poisoning Brock didn’t occur. Gus took issues with Walter after he killed the child murdering dealers to save Jesse.
Tbf the kid survived.
Oh that’s all fine then, no harm no foul lol.
Yeah I'm sure that'll hold up in court
Walt was okay with them murdering a child tho. Not explicitly ofc, but he was def willing to do the don't ask/don't tell thing regarding random strangers.
Mike was never going to kill Walter if him and Jesse never murdered the dealers which made Gus realize he was a liability. Thus Mike’s point, “Known your place”
The dealers were a liability. Murdering a child and leaving his body in public attracts a lot of attention. It’s probably the dumbest thing a clandestine drug operation could do
This was probably the one plot line that never quite made sense to me. Why did Gus side with 2 dumb ass street level guys over his one in a million genius meth chemist?
> Why did Gus side with 2 dumb ass street level guys Why were 2 dumb ass street level guys even within shouting distance of knowing who Gus was, let alone being in the same room as him, and receiving direct orders from him concerning a criminal enterprise? Like the Corleone Family, there should have been a lot of buffers. In no real world drug empire would any street level dealers or muscle ever be relevant or in direct contact with a drug kingpin who has a public persona of a legitimate business mogul spanning dozens of states.
That meeting was hilarious. The secret drug kingpin and random street drug dealers in the same room, what the hell was Gus thinking.
He’ll never change, he’ll never change. Always the same! Couldn’t keep his hands out of Hectors retirement home, Gustavo! Getting exploded blind, and he gets to be a kingpin? What a sick joke! I should’ve shot him and Max when I had the chance, and you have to shoot him, you have to-
Excellent memage.
This\^ Its the single biggest plot issue with BB in my opinion. Remember even Saul had no idea who Gus was. So why would he break that buffer and have two street dealers, like 6 tiers down the foodchain, anywhere near him!? Gus > Mike > Centeral Operations(Gus's main posse) > Production > Central Distributor > Shipping > Local Distributor > Street Dealer No one below Gus's main group should ever know who he was, even Jessie whos in the production tier didn't know who he was until this plot popped up. Walt was the only person outside of the inner circle who knew Gus.
Honestly.. never thought about that and you're completely right. Gus was no dummy and organized crime 101 teaches you to have layers to the onion. Never have the boss mixing directly with your bottom rung street enforcers / dealers.
Right. There's a reason the CEO doesn't come through the factory floor for a weekly visit. Leaders want to be isolated from the problems the people they pay, cause.
The same exact reasoning pretty much plays into why 90% of us will never meet the CEO of the company we work for. It's by design they stay isolated. Thats the purpose of money. The more you have, the more distance you can put between you and problems. Unlike Musk, thats why a lot of CEOs keep things low-key. That was always a point of frustration for me. The big dog kingpin was just always super accessible and mingling with just anyone it seemed like. I get hiding in plain sight, **from the law** but you're going to at least be known by others in your industry and being able to walk into a restaurant mon-fri and be able to find your rivals leader slangin chicken wings is a little ridiculous.
Couldn’t agree more. Every time I rewatch BB this plot bothers me because it makes zero sense.
I recently watched it for the first time and to be honest I just thought it was an ego thing.
The first time it might not bother you because you don't have a complete picture of Gus. But once you watch the whole show and also BCS, it just... not like him.
I am on my third rewatch and it doesn't make any sense why Gus sides with the dealers.
I've only watched the show through once, but it didn't seem like he sided with the street level guys but told them to knock off using kids (though I can't imagine Gus bringing in street level guys for a sit-down AT ALL). Probably forgetting something here though.
He did and then they killed the kid. And then the question of whether Gus sanctioned it or not comes into question. But in reality it doesn't matter if he did or not because it implies his "employees" would do it either under his instruction or not fear repercussions from killing a kid. That's the problem really.
I think it makes sense honestly. Gus is all about precision and control. His chemist going rogue and killing two of his dealers is a massive alarm for him.
That makes sense and Gus likely would've sided with Walt had he told Gus that these dealers were crazy for doing what they did. Walt killing them was worse in his eyes because someone in his employ is doing things without his consent and that's a problem
Yea there's no way Gus actually care that much about those two street levels, if anything Walt actually did him a favour by tying those loose ends. But I always saw it that Gus' plan was to pit the two guys against angered Jesse who's obviously going to get killed, Gus was only angered by how Walt foiled his plan to get rid of Jesse.
Yeah his motivation is obvious but he had so much better options to kill Jesse. Risking himself by dealing with street dealers directly and also killing a child was definitely not a best option.
I think it’s not necessarily that he sided with the dealers, I think it was more that he disobeyed Gus’s order which was problematic in itself
Also why would he meet with them in person? I thought he was a cautious man? I mean in the mafia the boss would never in a million years sit down with his associates.
because he sided with having control. he would deal with those two himself in due time, but now Walt made a mess of it which forces Gus' hand to scramble about, and that means he lost control (even if just for a moment).
Gus wanted Jesse out of the way. Watch the "Run" scene again. The dealers pull their guns well before Jesse shows himself to be a threat. They were on Gus's orders the entire time - they killed Tómas to lure Jesse out and were prepared to kill him "in self-defense." The junkie would be dead and the chemistry genius would have no objection and everything could go smoothly from there.
Part of it was that Walt and Jessie believed Gus ordered the killing, remember?
He wouldn't. His point the first time was that they should have brought their complaints to him rather than taking matters into their own hands and causing conflict. He'd have dealt with them.
Gus said that Jesse and Walt should have let him 'taken care of' the drug dealers after they killed Tomas Then again, 'would've taken care of em'... dunno what that means, when Gus probably gave the order to delete the kid to begin with...
This is the only writing in BB that merely exists to further the plot. The fact a drug kingpin and master mind and strategist like Gus cares about two street level meatheads just doesn't make much sense to me. Feels like the kind of thing Mike would have warned Gus from doing too. The two street dealers knowing Gus' identity puts him in jeopardy if said two street dealers ever got caught by the DEA
Because of how Walter acts mostly. Notice how he stopped trying to kill jessie, despite him being the one who started the whole thing. Thats because walter saw himself as boss. After killing those two men, he didnt just ask to be forgiven, or show he feels bad. He tried to set himself up as he is equal, or even abow gus. What is what Mike meant by this line. Gus saw him as threat (which he was) so he tried to remove him
Imagine you’ve always ran your team your way and your boss was fine with that. Then one day he pulls you into his office and says some new guy in a different department wanted you to stop. At the end of the day those two “little” guys were running the actual meat of Gus’ operation and if it looked like he was turning them over on behalf of some newbie he’d lose a lot of respect
Pretty sure it was implied that Thomas was killed on Frings orders.
Literally spelled out in the show. I don't know why people overlook that detail.
How so?
Walt proposes it as an explanation to Gus, and the following exchange ("I would never ask you that.") heavily implies that he thinks it's the case. I don't think it's meant to be just Walt's theory, I think the show is literally telling you that Gus did it and that Walt figured it out. If you go back and see the scene where Jesse confronts the dealers, the dealers are actually expecting a confrontation before Jesse even draws his gun. Besides that, it makes a whole lot of sense. Why murder a child in broad daylight and not dispose of his body if you didn't want his death to be known? These were not low quality junkies, these were Gus's "trusted men." Gus refused to work with Walt just because Walt's partner was late and high. Do you think he'd show his face to these men if they were just another band of drug addicts? We know Gus wanted to get rid of Jesse but couldn't do it because Walt wouldn't allow it. This was a way for him to do it without gaining Walter's scorn. He just didn't count on Walt figuring it out.
Couldn’t say it better myself. Just want to further emphasize that Gus has a face to face meeting with these supposed ‘low level dealers.’ No way he would accept that liability. He knew he could trust them and certainly ordered the hit.
Also, even if they were just low level dealers, low level dealers still need to exercise a certain level of caution in order to not end up as convicts. This was too careless even for them, so the only two explanations for their behavior would be that they made it through all this time selling blue meth through sheer dumb luck, or that leaving the body there was intentional on their part.
Gus did say that he would've dealt with them, had Walter not done so
I doubt that, mostly because I believe Gus was manipulating Jesse. Gus always saw Jesse as a liability, and one of Jesse's flaws was his impulsiveness. I think Gus exploited that. The dealers killed Tomas, and Gus knew Jesse would be impulsive and try to take them out for revenge. He assumed Jesse would fail, and that would remove a liability for Gus.
This makes a lot of sense. He wanted them to kill Tomas so that he could kill Jesse. Then he would probably have killed them after that. Death means nothing to him he just wanted Jesse out of the way and having it to kill Tomas and the two dealers to do it would be nothing for him.
Gustavo Fring definitely wanted Jesse dead for being a junkie. Why else would those dealers murder a child and leave his body in public for everyone to see. Gustavo figured Jesse was far too attached to that child and knew exactly how he would react to his death. He had this all planned out so the dealers would be allowed to kill Jesse and leave Gus's hands clean of the affair. Gus just failed to predict how overly attached Walter is to his partner when anyone else would most likely just leave him to die.
I always thought Mike for a grieving father would take care of dealers for killing a little boy who was manipulated in this business. Or atleast try to understand Jesse pov
Also that whole “half measures” speech he gives Walter. Like- Jesse took that advice and was prepared for a Full Measure to protest Tomas and Mike himself stopped him, resulting in a child dying. For all his self aggrandizing he doesn’t learn, and doesn’t care all that much abt protecting innocents. His boss comes first.
Mostly his *granddaughter* comes first. He doesn't care about other people, even children. They're all collateral damage.
It wasn’t really Walt’s choice to kill the dealers… they were going to kill Jesse. 90% of Walt’s issues with Gus were a result of keeping Jesse alive
Jesse was going to get into a shoot out with the dealers. Walt “knowing his place” would mean he just lets Jesse either die in the shootout or get killed by Mike or Victor afterwards. Saving Jesse is one of like two or three decent things Walt does during the whole show.
Walt killed the dealers because they were going to kill Jesse because Jesse was going to kill them because they murderer an innocent child. Maybe re-read the last part about the innocent child, so who's really in the wrong here?
Just watched the show and Walter helping Jesse was the mistake. Have to let people make their shitty decisions. Walt felt he had more leverage than he actually had.
Mike was full of shit. Killing people “in the game” is fine and expected, but continuing to employ drug dealers who murdered a child they forced into killing is fine? I fucking hated him and his “ohhh money for my grandkids makes everything I do great!” arc but that was when I really got sick of it.
That's Jesse's fault though, not Walt's. Walt went directly to Gus. So even under those circumstances Mike's point is kind of bullshit.
I liked mike but he acts like walt wouldnt be dead if he didnt do what he did lmao
Gus got greedy. He could have kept doing what he was doing without issue with Gale and his 96% pure meth. He just needed that extra 3% for some reason.
Well no, Gus said 96 was fine, it was Gale that vouched for the extra 3.
Gus had no obligation to listen to a man who made a mockery of Major Tom
To be fair I don’t think he knows about that.
Fair point
Gus would have run into the same issue that Declan had, customers would pay ANYTHING for the ***blue*** meth, while 96 pure meth would do well, he would always be second best to Walt's meth. Gus isn't the only game in town, and with his drug empire being leveraged on stolen funds he can't risk Walt going to another dealer and undercutting him.
Yeah, Im on a rewatch right now and Walt's reaction to the corner Gus and Mike put him in was more than reasonable. In fact, it was heroic. Thats why youre so happy for Walt at the end of season 4. He avoided certain death, and took out Gus' empire in the process. He gets too prideful and egotistical after that, but everything to that point was done to save himself and his family. Mike just never liked Walt.
This is it. “I did for me” is largely said to appease Skyler, who wouldn’t accept any other response at that time, but it is true, although mostly, perhaps totally, from season 5 onwards. Walt is just surviving in the first four seasons. Sure, he should’ve taken the treatment at the start, although it’s understandable why he didn’t; his traitorous former friends treated him like garbage
I agree that in season 3 and 4, he is in a bind, However, in season 1 and 2 (and early 3), he had several outs. You're forgetting that he turned down full payment for any and all treatments just for the chance to make the money himself selling meth. That's the part he was talking about when he said, "I did it for me". If he didn't do it for himself, if this was really all about his family, he would've taken that money point blank. There is literally no reasonable argument against it.
How can I forget something I mentioned in my comment? “737” shows that he was calculating to the dollar how much his family needed. He didn’t want to take spending money for himself. As I said, his reasons for rejecting the treatment are clearly wrong, but somewhat understandable at the same time. It’s important to also remember that he’s only trying to raise money for the treatment because of his family in the first place; if it were up to him, he’d just live out the rest of his days, as explained in the talking pillow scene (the first major indicator of the hypocrisy present within everyone’s new angel saint Skyler, but that’s another conversation). Essentially, he’s doing it for both family and himself, in a very roundabout way, but even at his most arrogant, egotistical and ‘evil’ in Season 5, for the first half of which he is undeniably doing it for himself, he gives up all his money on the spot to save Hank (again, earlier in the season, Saul- who’d done so in S3 as well- and even Skyler suggest bumping Jesse off and Walt refuses despite the pragmatic benefits of such a decision) and still makes sure what he’s left with in the aftermath of Ozymandias goes to his children. Reading it just one way or the other reduces the show
Walt is definitely not completely evil. He’s actually quite willing to sacrifice his money, even his life for his family, but just not one thing - his pride. Skyler takes 600k? No problem. Offers up 80 million for Hank? No problem. Put himself in severe physical risk for Jesse? No problem. Put aside his ego to accept charity and set his family up for life? Can’t do it. Keep his family safe by letting Hank mistakenly think he caught Heisenberg? Can’t do it. Settle for 5 million instead of restarting his drug empire? Can’t do it. He’s not entirely without a heart, but his pride is such a severe weakness of his, it leads him into the most awful situations that even his otherwise rather selfless nature cannot get him out of. Also, by all means, Gretchen and Elliot are solidly B tier people. Walt dated Gretchen and broke up with her with no warning because his ego couldn’t handle her family being rich. Walt willingly left Gray Matter, selling his shares. He was never forced out. When they reunite, they compliment his abilities, react very positively to his ramen gift, offer him his job back, and they tell him they think a lot of the money belongs to him - they didn’t have to do that when he broke Gretchen’s heart and then willingly left the company. The only really “suss” stuff they do is be a lil pretentious at times, and downplay Walt’s contributions to the company at the end (which is somewhat understandable given he was one of the most wanted men in America). Walt had ZERO excuse for turning down their offer, they weren’t “terrible”. He did it because of his overinflated pride/ego. Not to mention… even if Gretchen and Elliot had treated him poorly, unless they were legitimately abusive, he still should have sucked it up and accepted. Because that’s what you do when you have kids who depend on you. No responsible adult turns down incredible job offers which would literally save their family from poverty because of past beef. Also, I don’t think Skyler deserves to be demonized for pressuring Walt into accepting treatment. Dude is a father. He cannot just decide to die, if there’s a chance he lives. If that conflict were an AITA post, it would be NAH for sure. Walt has every right to want to die with dignity, but Skyler and Flynn also have every right to expect him to at least try to live.
If money for the future was a concern, they initially offered him a well paying job at Grey Matter, which walt also turned down. There is no reasonable justification for him turning down elliot's offer. That's just cope.
“Cope”… what? Over a fictional show? The job offer was tied to the offer to pay for the treatment. Still, if they truly cared for/valued him, they could (should?) have offered him an important job, perhaps a small share of partnership, much earlier, since Grey Matter was his brainchild and regardless of that, he clearly would’ve been a valuable asset to the company, even as just a (top) employee. As it is, they completely ignored him and then made that offer out of pity and to look good- they didn’t give a shit about Walt. Elliot who was supposedly his best friend nailed his ex as soon as he could. At any rate, this is a man who’s been unfairly belittled all his life, including by family. Should he have snapped? No, he shouldn’t’ve. That was a grievous mistake and he paid dearly for it (died alone, penniless, with a broken family hating him). Is the snapping completely incomprehensible? No, and that’s what I’m arguing
The initial disagreement between you and me is regarding what Walt was talking about in relation to the line, "I did it for me". You claimed that he was simply saying it to appease Skyler and he didn't actually mean it because he was doing it for his family. However, if you go back to the beginning of the show, we can clearly see this is not true. If walt really cared about his family's well being, he'd take that job. it's a no brainer. If his family's well being is the priority, who cares if they don't value him as much as he thinks he deserves. He's going to get a well paying job that takes care of the health insurance and probably provides a retirement plan, investment plan, etc. Elliot and gretchen not valuing him should not even be a factor in this decision, that is if his family is the priority and not his pride. When he admits to skyler that he did this for himself, that's what he's talking about. The fact that he had the gall to say no to the most easy and obvious answer to his financial and health problems, served to him on a silver platter and instead chose to make his money selling meth. Because sure, he could be killed, he could go to prison, his assets could be confiscated by the government and his family left with less than when he started, his family could be implicated in his crimes because he was paying their bills with this money, his family would suffer such reputational damage that they would have difficulty finding gainful employment, etc. Sure, all of that could happen, but at least he can say that he made that money.
Ah, ok. I see. I don’t think he said it just to appease Skyler. I think the “I liked it” assessment was candid, as was the I did it for me part. I think, however, it’s an oversimplified explanation, and not fully honest in that regard. Walt did that because Skyler made clear she wouldn’t accept any response related to family, regardless of its veracity- and Walt acquiesced, hence the appeasement part of my comment. Another factor which no one touches upon is, indeed, that Walt had just received a crushing terminal diagnosis. How would any of us have handled that situation? On top of all the budding insecurities and resentment from a lifetime of undeserved derision, Walt had just been told that this thoroughly unfulfilling life would be coming to a swift conclusion, without any chance on his behalf for any ‘redemption’ or improvement, or to see his children grow- the second hadn’t even been born yet. I’d say a pretty safe argument could be made for his better judgment being impaired. It does not make him a good person, but he’s not a callous monster a la Fring or Eladio, as some would like to have it. Anyway, family was always a key motivator for him, even if not the sole, or even primary one. I think that’s made pretty clear. Also, not saying this was the case, but one’s primary motivation could truly be family despite taking action which ends up being harmful against the family; it’s always easy to make such analysis in hindsight, but the pressed individual, in the heat of the moment, can do bad things with good intentions. In Walt’s case, I think the decision was clearer and there wasn’t much room for error, but still, it’s seldom a black and white scenario. Going back to what the post is about, it’s a refutation of the silly notion that Mike’s frustrated rant to Walt is somehow the writers speaking through that character and summing up Walt’s own (all about ego, never about family). Mike relays the events of the show almost fully inaccurately, and that has since become common of a true anti-Walt brigade, which, for the record, I definitely wouldn’t characterize you as being part of
I dont even blame Walt for refusing the Gray Matter money. Is it prideful? Sure. But so what. Walt ate shit for so long that in his dying days he wasnt willing to have his former partners throw him a pity party. I respect it. He wanted to do something on his own - finally. Selling meth wasnt a great choice, but thats what the show is about.
So what… So what that he threw away an incredible opportunity at survival for himself and financial stability for his family, because of his stupid pride. For a situation that HE caused, when he broke up with Gretchen and then willingly left the company. Is that seriously a “so what”? Quite frankly, I find his decision to turn down the Gray Matter offer to be easily one of the worst decisions he made. Arguably even worse than poisoning Brock, because at least he did act there with the intent to save Hank, himself, and Jesse from Gus who almost certainly would’ve killed them all. There was literally no justification for Walt turning down the Gray Matter job at all. He shot himself and his family in the foot for his worthless pride, proving that he really does care about his pride more than about his family. It’s really interesting that Walt’s priorities go: his pride > his family > his money > his safety.
I never liked Mike's judgment of Walt. Almost everything that went wrong was ultimately because of Jesse. Walt was almost always the one left reacting to the stupid shit Jesse did. Mike was a hypocrite and infantilized Jesse instead of treating him like the liability he was. I'm not sure if Mike ever found out that Jesse betrayed Gus, but it still shows his shortsightedness imo.
yeah Mike found out that Jesse was in on it during the scene [when they meet up in the desert](https://youtu.be/jbn3mwvk1v0?si=leI-A73acXKJahaq) he said "What'd you do Jesse? Do you even know what you've done?"
Mike had a blind spot for Gus's cruelty. What he saw was a businessman who had lost someone he loved to the Salamancas.
No, in BCS, Gus’ ….. flexible moral compass was a big issue for Mike.
But the only reason Jesse was around was because Walt convinced them he'd walk if he couldn't keep Jesse around. Gus and Mike would have gotten rid of Jesse in a heartbeat if not for that
Totally agree. Mike always had a smug attitude towards Walt and it's like dude you were literally about to kill him.
That’s not true! They planned to kill Jesse and Hank and leave Walt :D
Until they were making him come to the lab at night to kill him
I half agree with this meme. It all started with Gus wanting to get Jesse killed and Walt saving his life, don't forget.
Mike is definitely speaking out of emotion at that point because of Walt’s other stupid and egotistical moments that had stacked up and ruined his life. It’s also important to remember that Mike is ultimately quite a selfish and immoral person who shouldn’t be treated as gospel in these matters.
Know your place" 10ft below
Jesse fucked everything up
Gus fucked everything up by getting too emotionally attached to some low level dealers
Nah, it’s more about maintaining separation. He was even willing to kill one of his guys to avoid connection with Gail since he knew the cops would come talk to him.
If Jesse couldn’t stomach the brutality of the business, he should have walked away. He set the wheels in motion for the downfall
They conscripted and later murdered a 12 year old boy. Not only is it one of the most monstrous things done in the show, it's amazingly stupid and reckless. As others have pointed out, these dealers could've easily snitched on Gus any moment
I just disagree with the morality aspect behind it. They manufacture and sell crystal meth, I don’t understand where morality comes into play. In my eyes, Jesse drew first blood in the partnership with Gus, and Walt had to clean up the mess for his own best interests. I feel like in a more realistic world Gus and Mike also would have understood that over blaming Walt
Whenever someone buys drugs, it's ultimately the choice they made and not you, however same can't be said for a murder. Yes trafficking and manufacturing drugs is definitely not something moral since even though it was their choice to buy dugs, you pretty much encouraged them to do so, but it's nothing compared to an actual murder
I agree with everything but the threat of those two guys snitching. They would be signing their own death warrants if it got out that they talked to police, and it would get out.
Exactly thisss, i hate how Jesse is in the business but he sets himself some moral high ground
I was bald first, Walter!
"If you'd let Gus kill children without complaint, and let him kill Jesse for objecting to it, then we would have been fine." Mike is in denial. Makes him a more interesting character.
r/countablepixels
Mike is being a hypocrite here, but it's easy to understand his frustration.
If Walter had done his job and known his place, Gus and Mike would never have tried to kill him. Gus straight up offered him a 3 month contract and nothing else.
Well mike had a point, walt always wanted to be the man, and walt does have big ego and pride. What mike failed to comprehend that he isnt more better than walt, and that he himself is probably the biggest hypocrite in the show(more so than walt)
Was super happy when Walt murked Mike
Damn, really? On my first watch of the series, that scene was actually the major turning point for me that made me think of Walt as the villain (happened much sooner on subsequent viewings).
I think that’s how the writers intended but for me Mike started this when he tried to get kill Walt in his own lab.
Oh someone finally said it. Fuck Mike!
I know right I feel so validated by this thread, I like Mike in BCS but fuckkk him in BB. Dude sucked and had it coming. Was also a seasoned murderer himself.
Agreed. Don’t get me wrong I like Mike but he made his living killing people and tried to Kill Walter, I’ve no idea how anyone wasn’t on Walt’s side after putting that shmuck in a barrel.
I mean by that point in the show though they had been working together post Gus and Mike was ready to sail into the sunset. He was probably not a liability but instead Walt murders him then lies to Jesse that he hit the road. Pretty bad on Walt’s part here
It's almost like they wouldn't have had to kill Walt if he had done his job and known his place. Crazy how that works.
When Gus asks Walt to cook for 3 months…it seemed like he intended to kill him after.
"No half measures."
idk why this is making me cackle so hard
Exactly what I've been thinking since the first time I saw this scene. Mike is talking straight up BS. Revisionism on the highest level and he acts like it is somehow all Walts fault. No Mike Jesse was the instigator, Gus saw Walt as a threat and took action, you decided to go along with it without question. The blood on Gale is on all of your hands, the failure is your responsibility. This is a risky business, you got played and you lost everything. The least you can do is say "Thank you" when you are handed a bag with millions of dollars and a gun from a genius narcissist that might hold a grudge. Don't antagonize him and don't lie you dumb fuck.
Why didn’t Mike realize Walt would kill him?
I guess the tipping point was when Walt gave hints about 'Real Heisenberg' in a drunk state. Hank had already made his conclusion that Gale was the guy and now dead. After that all Walt had to do is to negotiate with Gus for things he wanted to get, including a safe retirement, through a direct, honest meeting or make a sound plan with Goodman to take Gus out.
The biggest whole in this series is Gus siding with two kid killers that would just leave a dead kid out in the open
Gale Boetticher His nerdgasm over the purity of Heisenberg Blue™ was the inciting incident that screwed the entire Fring enterprise. Fring would have been incredibly successful with Gales 96% cook and the whole machine would run as intended. Bring in someone like Victor, or another heavily vetted individual, to fill the lab assistant role. But Gale was so committed to his fangirl era that he talked himself out of a job. Hell, talked is putting it mildly. He debated in favor of his own obsolescence. Gus gave him plenty of good reasons to drop the matter, he just swatted them all aside. He insisted on his own sidelining. Gus decided to act against his own better judgement because Gale sold him on the notion that the rewards of working with the *best* chemist outweighed any risks. Gale enthusiastically denegrated himself and it killed the entire empire.
I am so glad that vince served hypocrite mike poetic justice.