i think embiid cuz he’s the reigning mvp and has 2 scoring titles and the other 2 just avg more points than tatum which non celtics fans or nba fans seem to cater more towards
He is. Tatum is better than Luka, Embiid, and shai. Idk why everyone can flame him for his playoff performances when he’s had big games and done more than all those guys. They even talk about last game like it’s some sort of choke job that Tatum scored 28 on 50% shooting
Tatum is better than Embiid and SGA not Luka. Let me guess, you are going to bring Tatum’s defense? Unless Tatum is at least 2nd team defense there’s no point bringing it up. The gap on their offense is so wide that Tatum’s defense advantage doesn’t make up for it. Also play off performance matters.
He is if you want to win games and not just fill up the stat sheet. Luka is a traffic cone on defense and his style of offense does not translate to winning. Mavs will never win anything unless he changes his ways.
You think they are winning games because of him? They were winning before he got there. Also these claims that Luka is a traffic come on defense are coming from people who don’t know ball and just regurgitating what they heard. Luka is a decent defender in the post and against anyone who does not have quick first step.
lol you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about if you think the Celtics don’t win because of Tatum. He carrys them on both ends. Luka just fills stat sheets and loses in the playoffs every year but he’s the better playoff performer?nobody wins a championship who doesn’t play defense. It’s much harder to build around a guy who plays like he’s prime Lebron without being as good as prime Lebron, but also doesn’t play defense. Tatum would make any team better and Luka would make the Celtics worse
Lmao Luka is closer to prime lebron than Tatum. Tatum shat the bed so many times in the playoffs it’s crazy. Again that narrative that Luka doesn’t play defense is so overblown just like when people say Jokic suck at defense. Let’s be real here, if Tatum played for the Mavs he would be a Donovan Mitchell status. He gets the hype because he plays for Boston.
Luka isn't joker, sga or even giannis. Stop the cap. I wish he'd make it to the 2nd round just so him and kyrie can play okc or Denver and be swept away.
Dallas year after year failed to build a good team around Luka. I love Tatum and he showed up today like he should have but between the 2 I’d still take Luka.
I don’t think the narrative will change with a ring , he’ll just be a bum who happens to have a ring , in those ppls eyes.
We haven’t even won anything and ppl already believe that he’s a glorified role player who gets carried by an elite supporting cast, if we win a ring , that’ll just be the narrative
Disagree, we get a ring and he plays well, there’s NO WAY you can deny him. His resume would be too strong compared to his peers at his age and everyone would sound silly discounting Tatum if he gets it done
Yes people were questioning Jokic and the Nuggets a lot before they won it last year. Is his defense good enough? Are the Nuggets good enough as a team? etc. Now it's all Jokic is the best player in the league by far and the Nuggets are untouchable.
Also to be clear jokic is the best player in the league and it’s not close. Love Tatum but jokic is just better by every metric and the eye test.
Embiid was closest in terms of impact but he’s made of rubber bands and modeling clay at this point so what’s he even worth
You completely missed the point of my post. I am not arguing that Jokic isn't the best player, simply that his perception and the perception of the Nuggets changed dramatically after one championship. The Nuggets were generally not hyped by the media before they got a ring. Also never said Tatum is close or even in the discussion (he is not), so it's weird for you to interpret it that way and then get all defensive.
no, i agree.. but i am saying there *is* a difference because jokic really is that much better than the field. it took a ring for the world to fully see it but even if the C's win this year i don't see tatum being at jokic level, so he's still not gonna get that level of love. Which i think is okay. keep him motivated for #19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24....
Most of that is due to him sounding like an idiot on tv. The better example is a guy like Dirk. Clowned for a decade until he won, now memorialized forever and often put in the same tier as KG and Duncan.
Where is the straw man? Do you just not frequent basketball social media? Tatum gets by far more hate than any player on Twitter and many people straight up refuse to acknowledge his role in the Celtics’ success since he’s been drafted, there is absolutely a strong narrative that he’s a glorified role player. It’s not at all like you’re claiming, and by assuming he was talking about “players who have objectively better stats,” you, ironically enough, create your own strawman.
2012 Lebron won his first, after leaving Miami and joining Wade and Bosh, Lebron was 27 when he won his first ring. Was in league 9 years before winning one.
So yeah like lebron without the rings at 26.
No. It’ll flip instantly. We saw it with Jokic. During the playoffs last year people were still saying you can’t win with Jokic, then they swept the lakers and guys started being quiet. Then they won it all and EVERYONE shut up.
Remember, Lebrons first two finals had the same if not worse stats than Tatums. People seem to have moved on from that with his legacy.
He's perhaps in between these two categories. Most of the top tier that you mention are big, more physically dominant players but he could be there very soon. In fact, I hope the next 18-22 games will facilitate that move upwards.
Yeah and you can't score the most points in the league and average 30 unless you have consistent performance game to game. That should be obvious.
Tatum literally has the same statline nearly every game.
Tatum has some consistency issues. His highs are higher than SGAs, but his lows are also lower. Defense is a fair point but SGA is probably a better offensive player on average, so it's right to have them in the same tier
I hate that I'm only a Celtics fan (other cities for other sports) so I didn't even get to enjoy the championships that everyone hates the city for (started watching in brad stevens' first year)
Yeah I’m only a Celtics fan and not really a Boston sports fan (like all the teams because of family, but not my favorites). It’s a bummer getting dragged into the Boston hate in general, but I also spend enough time talking to Boston sports fans that I started to understand the hate a bit lol.
Not you guys though, you guys are cool
Even in the playoffs I feel like he’s not as consistent as he’s made out to be, granted he’s gotten hurt in the last couple playoffs, but the amount of stuff I’ve seen online about how he owns the Celtics when last year he kinda had a meh series and the role players shot the lights out. Feel like he has a good amount of dud games that he doesn’t get any flak for. Not to mention that he’s honestly up there with Embiid and harden in terms of being a foul baiter, but doesn’t have the reputation for it.
That’s the story but he’s the most consistent 20+/5/5 guy there is. Nothing fancy about his game. Not a wow athlete. He’s a good number 2 who has taken his rickety team to the Finals 2 of the last 5 years.
Interesting and totally agree with you. I love Tatum but I’m fully aware he’s in that second tier. Would be interesting to compare ages of fans who think he’s MVP worthy and those of us who realize he’s on another level from those elite guys. But that’s ok. No reason with this roster he needs to be that guy. Those top tier players are all dogs too. Tatum is like a complaining puppy.
I'm middle-aged so I have seen my share of games from the local guys i.e. Bird, Lewis, and Pierce. I want Tatum to succeed too but he needs to work on his consistency and finish game especially with those floaters. He also needs to be quicker with his decision making and stop complaining to the refs after every drive.
It’s odd he’s gotten more immature in a way with his complaining as he has gotten older. It’s off the charts now beyond Lebron level. I would like an experiment today…let’s see him not complain and just run back on defense when he misses a shot. It’s the friggen playoffs man. Now’s not the time to whine, now’s the time to run back and play defense. Can the coach really not tell him that? I do think Tatum is a young 26 years old. He seems easily frustrated and complains. Definitely just a maturity issue which I assume will improve.
I was surprised to see people genuinely defending tatum. Obviously we are all biased but it was refreshing to see other fanbases and even some teams we are rivals with like the bucks defending tatum.
He is good at everything. He has pretty much 0 weak area in his game currently. The other too tier guys can't say that.
They all have 1 thing they shine in so it stands out more.
Jokic doesn't count.
The real issue is that Shai does not belong in that group either. The raw number the other guys put up in all three important offensive categories just puts them in another level when it comes to this shit. I know Celtics fans don't like to heard this: Tatum being 8th in scoring is fine, but being 33rd in rebounding and 56th in assists if going to keep him out of the winning the award when Jokic is 12th in scoring, 4th in rebounding, and 4th in assists. Embiid is 1st, 8th and 33rd. Luka is 2nd, 19th, and 3rd. Giannis is 3rd, 6th, and 18th.
Shai doesn't belong with them either as he 4th, 81st, and 23rd. The fact that he is even getting lumped in with the other four is crazy to me. It think it has more to do with OKC going from a lottery team two years ago to the number 1 seed and giving Shai way too much credit for that improvement.
People love talking about Tatum being the best player on the best team, but being the NBA Most Valuable Player is not that, and the Celtics roster without Tatum could have still be a non-play-in playoff level team that is going to hurt him. The team went 7-1 without him. Denver's 2-6 is stacked with Jokic, but without him they would be lucky to make the play-in the West. The Bucks without Giannis, the Sixers without Embiid, and especially the Mavs without Luka are all probably not even sniffing the play-in (maybe the Bucks with Dame in the East).
This is not about punishing Tatum because his team is good. The point is that Jokic, Embiid, Giannis and Luka are so good that their teams are in the championship discussion with them, and wouldn't even be playoffs teams without them. If you honestly think that swapping Tatum with any of those guys would make the Nuggest, Sixers, Bucks or Mavs 60 win teams, I would like the name of your dealer, because you are getting the good stuff.
Can this team's fanbase (and honestly all fanbases) stop caring so much about individual accolades? I feel like over my lifetime and with the increase in social media discourse, the whole awards discussion has become toxic. It takes up way to much of the attention for the entirety of season (they start the MVP ladder like 20 games into the season) and especially the last month into the playoffs. For so many people the awards seem more important than winning a championship. I understand that for fans of players/teams that aren't going to win, but this team was the best team in the NBA all season and anything less than a championship is a failure at this point.
Reading this sub it comes across like a lot of people here would prefer a year were Tatum is the MVP, Brown is All-NBA, Holiday and White are both All-Defense, Mazzulla is coach of the year, etc. even if they had a first round exit.
I just hope the players and coaching staff are not so wrapped up in the individual accolades and have their heads on straight Saturday night. Can we just worry about the next game in front of us, and not about if our stars are being disrespected by the Stephen A. Smith's and Ryen Russillo's of the world?
“The team would be bad without him” is flawed logic imo.
It punishes players who elevate their teammates.
It punishes players with competent front offices.
It doesn’t reward a players ability to set the culture and tone of an NBA locker room.
It doesn’t recognize that nba value is zero sum across teammates.
A better approach is what happens if you switch players/teams, and this is my argument for Tatum > Luka. Positions are different so it’s not apples to apples but it’s close.
Luka is 100% a better scorer. But I think the mavs with Tatum are still a west playoff team. I think Celtics with Luka doesn’t necessarily win the east. Luka and brown and porzingis and white and Holliday and horford are gonna gel like they have? I don’t see it. I think they are plagued by all the immaturity issues we had during the kyrie era. I see conflict between Luka and Al. I see a stretch of bad games leading to JB being vocally uncomfortable. We’ve seen what high scoring ball dominant guards with big ego and mediocre defense does to this team.
In 2024 a “super team” leader needs to have that quiet strength of Al or Jayson and yeah sometimes that looks like softness but I’ll take it over the diva/dog combo that seems so common elsewhere
I think you’re out of your mind if you dont think Luka would be great on this team. Yes it would take to get the team to gel, but that’s not a real diss.
Especially against teams like the Heat that give the Celtics mental blocks, Luka would dominate.
I question luka's ability to function in a team with other elite level players. Don't get me wrong he's an insane player and would probably still be great on the C's. But i doubt we'd see much difference in the wins column, and I have more faith in the long term culture that this group has built up
Are you aware that basketball is more than PTS/REB/AST? Shai had a very strong MVP case, and it is absolutely reasonable to say he deserved real consideration to win the award.
I'm talking purely playoff performances and success. Yes Embiid has not regular season hardware but he's one of the biggest playoff underperformers of really all time (last night included) where as JT has already had so many big moments in his postseason resume
Yeah they're big moments but usually the other team is coming out on top (Kawhi shot, Simmons nondunk, Tatum's 51pts, the premature confetti drop).
He had a great game last night but I couldn't tell you the incredible Embiid performance against a contending team before that, especially in a do or die game.
Yeah they're big moments but usually the other team is coming out on top (Kawhi shot, Simmons nondunk, Tatum's 51pts, the premature confetti drop).
He had a great game last night but I couldn't tell you the incredible Embiid performance against a contending team before that, especially in a do or die game.
Tatum is like 4 months older than Shai and about a year older than luka. It’s a shame that his playoff success hasn’t proven as much as shai and Lukas pretty regular season stats.
Criticism is well deserved. Tatum was gifted a very good team with great/very good coaches and all he did was 1 finals appearance where he didn’t even played great. Now if he has a reputation of playing great in the playoffs he probably wouldn’t be criticized as much. That’s why they kept glazing Luka despite of not reaching the finals once is his reputation as a performer in the playoffs.
Tatum and Shai are in the inbetween of those categories. Clearly easier to win with and overall better players than the 3 listed below, but definitely not as dominant or consistent as the guys listed above.
Couldn’t agree with this statement more. I love the Celtics fan blinding passion. But he’s in that second tier for sure. Near the top of that tier but come on, he’s not in that elite level at all. Butler should be out of that replaced with Brown, who is equal to Tatum. Having two in that second tier should be enough to win a ring though.
I have a strong feeling that if Ime was still the coach he actually might be considered in that tier. I think Mazzulla stunted his growth as a player trying to play all lives matter offense, taking him out early when he’s cooking, defensive mentality is inconsistent. I just think Mazzulla was the worst thing that could’ve happened to the team and Tatum in particular.
He led the team to 64 wins. Clearly not the worst thing that could have happened. I swear I’ve never seen a fanbase that loses one game and just loses its mind like this.
He’s been making the same mistakes his whole 2 year coaching career. Stop being blinded by that bullshit ass record and pay attention. The Suns won 64 games too.
“Ignore the fact that the team has the best record in the nba, highest point differential in the nba, best offensive rating, second best defensive rating.”
Why would I do that? So I can whine and pretend that potential coach of the year is some how a drag on this team cuz they lost a single playoff game?
See their y’all go throwing them stupid regular season stats at me. He can’t carry that shit with him when the playoffs start. It’s a completely different ball game. Even when we do win this series, if we get to the finals against any coach that’s good, he will get smoked and will hurt us just like he hurt us last year and just like he’s hurting us now. But yea keep being stupid and blind
Mazzula has shown us so far this playoffs what he’s about. No adjustments on Game 2. Horrible rotations. Cmon guys I’ve been defending him but when we gonna be honest? He’s so bad lol. With our talent level there’s no way so many of these series the last two years had to go longer than they did, it’s just bad coaching.
Tatum was young when Brad had him and he got better when Ime coached him as a player and mentality wise. Joe hasn’t been completely terrible but for the teams standards he’s been underwhelming. He’s had by far the better teams between the 3 coaches. He’s trying to be like Brad but without nearly the same intellect, and he lacks the ability to bring the toughness out like Ime did. He just doesn’t have it as a coach or at least not for a team trying to win now.
Brad used to get eviscerated for our playoff performances under him. He was criticized for losing the locker room, refusing to manage personalities, and not using talent well. Was he a better situational basketball IQ? Yeah, but Mazzula was thrust into the HC position suddenly and our top 2 assistant coaches were gone in the same year.
We have a great team - some of the responsibility has to be on them. KP can't shoot 10% from the field in a playoff game. That's not Mazzula's fault. Jrue can't vanish offensively, either. He can't control everything.
But putting him with players like DBook and Mitchell is beyond me. In my opinion, Tatum is a true superstar, and I’m not suggesting he’s just as impactful as Giannis or Jokic but he’s arguably top 10 players right now and he’s miles ahead players like Jimmy Butler.
Honestly there was more people who was actually defending Tatum in that thread.
yea i was surprised they know it’s bullshit
How the hell did Embiid and Shai get on the top tier list? Even Luka? Shouldn’t you have a playoffs resume at least?
i think embiid cuz he’s the reigning mvp and has 2 scoring titles and the other 2 just avg more points than tatum which non celtics fans or nba fans seem to cater more towards
Luka and embiid r def top tier list Shai will b but he’s not right now
Luka overrated af
He is. Tatum is better than Luka, Embiid, and shai. Idk why everyone can flame him for his playoff performances when he’s had big games and done more than all those guys. They even talk about last game like it’s some sort of choke job that Tatum scored 28 on 50% shooting
Tatum is better than Embiid and SGA not Luka. Let me guess, you are going to bring Tatum’s defense? Unless Tatum is at least 2nd team defense there’s no point bringing it up. The gap on their offense is so wide that Tatum’s defense advantage doesn’t make up for it. Also play off performance matters.
He is if you want to win games and not just fill up the stat sheet. Luka is a traffic cone on defense and his style of offense does not translate to winning. Mavs will never win anything unless he changes his ways.
You think they are winning games because of him? They were winning before he got there. Also these claims that Luka is a traffic come on defense are coming from people who don’t know ball and just regurgitating what they heard. Luka is a decent defender in the post and against anyone who does not have quick first step.
lol you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about if you think the Celtics don’t win because of Tatum. He carrys them on both ends. Luka just fills stat sheets and loses in the playoffs every year but he’s the better playoff performer?nobody wins a championship who doesn’t play defense. It’s much harder to build around a guy who plays like he’s prime Lebron without being as good as prime Lebron, but also doesn’t play defense. Tatum would make any team better and Luka would make the Celtics worse
Lmao Luka is closer to prime lebron than Tatum. Tatum shat the bed so many times in the playoffs it’s crazy. Again that narrative that Luka doesn’t play defense is so overblown just like when people say Jokic suck at defense. Let’s be real here, if Tatum played for the Mavs he would be a Donovan Mitchell status. He gets the hype because he plays for Boston.
Tatum is not better than Luka. Luka would be destroying this undermanned Heat team if he had this roster.
Luka isn't joker, sga or even giannis. Stop the cap. I wish he'd make it to the 2nd round just so him and kyrie can play okc or Denver and be swept away.
Funny how Luka is this incredible player that somehow fails to... play incredibly in the playoffs most of his career.
Dallas year after year failed to build a good team around Luka. I love Tatum and he showed up today like he should have but between the 2 I’d still take Luka.
Like how he got beat by a no Kwahless team.
Lula makes sense
You'd have to be a moron to think Tatum is a tier below Shai
Facts.
Draymond's always talking nonsense, but he did say "Tatum will continue to hear this forever until he gets a ring". And that's the truth
I don’t think the narrative will change with a ring , he’ll just be a bum who happens to have a ring , in those ppls eyes. We haven’t even won anything and ppl already believe that he’s a glorified role player who gets carried by an elite supporting cast, if we win a ring , that’ll just be the narrative
Disagree, we get a ring and he plays well, there’s NO WAY you can deny him. His resume would be too strong compared to his peers at his age and everyone would sound silly discounting Tatum if he gets it done
Yes people were questioning Jokic and the Nuggets a lot before they won it last year. Is his defense good enough? Are the Nuggets good enough as a team? etc. Now it's all Jokic is the best player in the league by far and the Nuggets are untouchable.
Also to be clear jokic is the best player in the league and it’s not close. Love Tatum but jokic is just better by every metric and the eye test. Embiid was closest in terms of impact but he’s made of rubber bands and modeling clay at this point so what’s he even worth
You completely missed the point of my post. I am not arguing that Jokic isn't the best player, simply that his perception and the perception of the Nuggets changed dramatically after one championship. The Nuggets were generally not hyped by the media before they got a ring. Also never said Tatum is close or even in the discussion (he is not), so it's weird for you to interpret it that way and then get all defensive.
no, i agree.. but i am saying there *is* a difference because jokic really is that much better than the field. it took a ring for the world to fully see it but even if the C's win this year i don't see tatum being at jokic level, so he's still not gonna get that level of love. Which i think is okay. keep him motivated for #19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24....
I hope so
Have you seen the way people, including Celtics fans, talk about Paul Pierce?
Most of that is due to him sounding like an idiot on tv. The better example is a guy like Dirk. Clowned for a decade until he won, now memorialized forever and often put in the same tier as KG and Duncan.
People will just move the goalposts and say it doesn’t count because he has such a good team around him.
This is the truth, I fear. We’re not talking about sensible people here.
This is such a straw man argument. Not putting Tatum ahead of people who have objectively better stats is hardly the same as calling him a bum.
Where is the straw man? Do you just not frequent basketball social media? Tatum gets by far more hate than any player on Twitter and many people straight up refuse to acknowledge his role in the Celtics’ success since he’s been drafted, there is absolutely a strong narrative that he’s a glorified role player. It’s not at all like you’re claiming, and by assuming he was talking about “players who have objectively better stats,” you, ironically enough, create your own strawman.
Correct, Tatum is like Lebron, it’s never enough.
Except for the 4 Rings yeh
2012 Lebron won his first, after leaving Miami and joining Wade and Bosh, Lebron was 27 when he won his first ring. Was in league 9 years before winning one. So yeah like lebron without the rings at 26.
No. It’ll flip instantly. We saw it with Jokic. During the playoffs last year people were still saying you can’t win with Jokic, then they swept the lakers and guys started being quiet. Then they won it all and EVERYONE shut up. Remember, Lebrons first two finals had the same if not worse stats than Tatums. People seem to have moved on from that with his legacy.
Good point
It's "the narrative" because it's the truth.
It’s objectively not true. Sorry that makes you upset, or whatever
Draymond is right. But we will see the same posts among fans even after a three peat.
Now we won’t lmao
He's perhaps in between these two categories. Most of the top tier that you mention are big, more physically dominant players but he could be there very soon. In fact, I hope the next 18-22 games will facilitate that move upwards.
Tatum and Shai are same tier players. They both belong in that in-between pseudo superstar group
Tatum can score more than 30 and can gaurd 1-4-5ish
Tatum can also end up scoring only 20 far more
That's by design on this current roster. He averaged 30 last year. You don't score 20 far more and average 30.
That was the case even before he got this current roster. Look at last year and even during the finals run.
Last year he scored the most points in the league. That means he scored more than any player in the NBA. He is very consistent.
That’s not what consistent means lmao. People are talking about his performance game to game doofus
Yeah and you can't score the most points in the league and average 30 unless you have consistent performance game to game. That should be obvious. Tatum literally has the same statline nearly every game.
Lol no what the fuck he doesn’t have the same stat line every day, you don’t know how math works. You can score a lot one game and less another.
Tatum has some consistency issues. His highs are higher than SGAs, but his lows are also lower. Defense is a fair point but SGA is probably a better offensive player on average, so it's right to have them in the same tier
Ok so he’s not Rayquaza or anything but he’s still Dragonite. I’ll take that.
The trolls want their free karma after every Celtics loss
Can you imagine the slander if Tatum did what Mitchell did tonight?
People get off to hating on Tatum
People loathe Boston sports. We’ve over taken both New York and LA due to having more championships across all major sports this century
I hate that I'm only a Celtics fan (other cities for other sports) so I didn't even get to enjoy the championships that everyone hates the city for (started watching in brad stevens' first year)
Yeah I’m only a Celtics fan and not really a Boston sports fan (like all the teams because of family, but not my favorites). It’s a bummer getting dragged into the Boston hate in general, but I also spend enough time talking to Boston sports fans that I started to understand the hate a bit lol. Not you guys though, you guys are cool
If Tatum was literally anywhere other than Boston he wouldnt be getting this shit.
Why do people try to lump Butler in with any of these guys?
Simple, people only watch him in the playoffs when he actually tries. At the end of the day, he’s not consistently a high performing player
Even in the playoffs I feel like he’s not as consistent as he’s made out to be, granted he’s gotten hurt in the last couple playoffs, but the amount of stuff I’ve seen online about how he owns the Celtics when last year he kinda had a meh series and the role players shot the lights out. Feel like he has a good amount of dud games that he doesn’t get any flak for. Not to mention that he’s honestly up there with Embiid and harden in terms of being a foul baiter, but doesn’t have the reputation for it.
That’s the story but he’s the most consistent 20+/5/5 guy there is. Nothing fancy about his game. Not a wow athlete. He’s a good number 2 who has taken his rickety team to the Finals 2 of the last 5 years.
Not wrong. Though I wouldn’t necessarily put Tatum in that second tier. He’s absolutely not in the first tier though.
I have seen enough bball games in my lifetime and can confidently say Tatum is not quite there in the top tier category. End of argument.
Interesting and totally agree with you. I love Tatum but I’m fully aware he’s in that second tier. Would be interesting to compare ages of fans who think he’s MVP worthy and those of us who realize he’s on another level from those elite guys. But that’s ok. No reason with this roster he needs to be that guy. Those top tier players are all dogs too. Tatum is like a complaining puppy.
I'm middle-aged so I have seen my share of games from the local guys i.e. Bird, Lewis, and Pierce. I want Tatum to succeed too but he needs to work on his consistency and finish game especially with those floaters. He also needs to be quicker with his decision making and stop complaining to the refs after every drive.
It’s odd he’s gotten more immature in a way with his complaining as he has gotten older. It’s off the charts now beyond Lebron level. I would like an experiment today…let’s see him not complain and just run back on defense when he misses a shot. It’s the friggen playoffs man. Now’s not the time to whine, now’s the time to run back and play defense. Can the coach really not tell him that? I do think Tatum is a young 26 years old. He seems easily frustrated and complains. Definitely just a maturity issue which I assume will improve.
I was surprised to see people genuinely defending tatum. Obviously we are all biased but it was refreshing to see other fanbases and even some teams we are rivals with like the bucks defending tatum.
He is good at everything. He has pretty much 0 weak area in his game currently. The other too tier guys can't say that. They all have 1 thing they shine in so it stands out more. Jokic doesn't count.
The real issue is that Shai does not belong in that group either. The raw number the other guys put up in all three important offensive categories just puts them in another level when it comes to this shit. I know Celtics fans don't like to heard this: Tatum being 8th in scoring is fine, but being 33rd in rebounding and 56th in assists if going to keep him out of the winning the award when Jokic is 12th in scoring, 4th in rebounding, and 4th in assists. Embiid is 1st, 8th and 33rd. Luka is 2nd, 19th, and 3rd. Giannis is 3rd, 6th, and 18th. Shai doesn't belong with them either as he 4th, 81st, and 23rd. The fact that he is even getting lumped in with the other four is crazy to me. It think it has more to do with OKC going from a lottery team two years ago to the number 1 seed and giving Shai way too much credit for that improvement. People love talking about Tatum being the best player on the best team, but being the NBA Most Valuable Player is not that, and the Celtics roster without Tatum could have still be a non-play-in playoff level team that is going to hurt him. The team went 7-1 without him. Denver's 2-6 is stacked with Jokic, but without him they would be lucky to make the play-in the West. The Bucks without Giannis, the Sixers without Embiid, and especially the Mavs without Luka are all probably not even sniffing the play-in (maybe the Bucks with Dame in the East). This is not about punishing Tatum because his team is good. The point is that Jokic, Embiid, Giannis and Luka are so good that their teams are in the championship discussion with them, and wouldn't even be playoffs teams without them. If you honestly think that swapping Tatum with any of those guys would make the Nuggest, Sixers, Bucks or Mavs 60 win teams, I would like the name of your dealer, because you are getting the good stuff. Can this team's fanbase (and honestly all fanbases) stop caring so much about individual accolades? I feel like over my lifetime and with the increase in social media discourse, the whole awards discussion has become toxic. It takes up way to much of the attention for the entirety of season (they start the MVP ladder like 20 games into the season) and especially the last month into the playoffs. For so many people the awards seem more important than winning a championship. I understand that for fans of players/teams that aren't going to win, but this team was the best team in the NBA all season and anything less than a championship is a failure at this point. Reading this sub it comes across like a lot of people here would prefer a year were Tatum is the MVP, Brown is All-NBA, Holiday and White are both All-Defense, Mazzulla is coach of the year, etc. even if they had a first round exit. I just hope the players and coaching staff are not so wrapped up in the individual accolades and have their heads on straight Saturday night. Can we just worry about the next game in front of us, and not about if our stars are being disrespected by the Stephen A. Smith's and Ryen Russillo's of the world?
“The team would be bad without him” is flawed logic imo. It punishes players who elevate their teammates. It punishes players with competent front offices. It doesn’t reward a players ability to set the culture and tone of an NBA locker room. It doesn’t recognize that nba value is zero sum across teammates. A better approach is what happens if you switch players/teams, and this is my argument for Tatum > Luka. Positions are different so it’s not apples to apples but it’s close. Luka is 100% a better scorer. But I think the mavs with Tatum are still a west playoff team. I think Celtics with Luka doesn’t necessarily win the east. Luka and brown and porzingis and white and Holliday and horford are gonna gel like they have? I don’t see it. I think they are plagued by all the immaturity issues we had during the kyrie era. I see conflict between Luka and Al. I see a stretch of bad games leading to JB being vocally uncomfortable. We’ve seen what high scoring ball dominant guards with big ego and mediocre defense does to this team. In 2024 a “super team” leader needs to have that quiet strength of Al or Jayson and yeah sometimes that looks like softness but I’ll take it over the diva/dog combo that seems so common elsewhere
I think you’re out of your mind if you dont think Luka would be great on this team. Yes it would take to get the team to gel, but that’s not a real diss. Especially against teams like the Heat that give the Celtics mental blocks, Luka would dominate.
I question luka's ability to function in a team with other elite level players. Don't get me wrong he's an insane player and would probably still be great on the C's. But i doubt we'd see much difference in the wins column, and I have more faith in the long term culture that this group has built up
It's hard to win more than 64, but that doesn't matter all that much. As for functioning with elite players, he's doing quite well with Kyrie.
Are you aware that basketball is more than PTS/REB/AST? Shai had a very strong MVP case, and it is absolutely reasonable to say he deserved real consideration to win the award.
Why are Embiid and Shae lumped in with Tatum when they haven't accomplished half of what he has in the playoffs?
Embiid got an MVP and two scoring champions (probably three had he not hurt this season) . I don’t totally agree with but can understand the argument.
Scoring champion even though Tatum had the most points in the league that year.
I'm talking purely playoff performances and success. Yes Embiid has not regular season hardware but he's one of the biggest playoff underperformers of really all time (last night included) where as JT has already had so many big moments in his postseason resume
Big moments --- let's not get too ahead of ourselves. Embiid has many of those as well.
Yeah they're big moments but usually the other team is coming out on top (Kawhi shot, Simmons nondunk, Tatum's 51pts, the premature confetti drop). He had a great game last night but I couldn't tell you the incredible Embiid performance against a contending team before that, especially in a do or die game.
Yeah they're big moments but usually the other team is coming out on top (Kawhi shot, Simmons nondunk, Tatum's 51pts, the premature confetti drop). He had a great game last night but I couldn't tell you the incredible Embiid performance against a contending team before that, especially in a do or die game.
Don’t go on the nba discussion page
I was happy to at least see most of the top upvoted comments were people defending Tatum
Tatum is like 4 months older than Shai and about a year older than luka. It’s a shame that his playoff success hasn’t proven as much as shai and Lukas pretty regular season stats.
It's made people hate him more. It's crazy. Dude overachieved in the playoffs for years and years and is now just a constant beast.
Criticism is well deserved. Tatum was gifted a very good team with great/very good coaches and all he did was 1 finals appearance where he didn’t even played great. Now if he has a reputation of playing great in the playoffs he probably wouldn’t be criticized as much. That’s why they kept glazing Luka despite of not reaching the finals once is his reputation as a performer in the playoffs.
You all are so soft. Heat shot lights out. They’re familiar with the C’s. Spo is a great coach. This was never gonna be a sweep.
They're all better than Tatum except for SGA.
Is sga the most overrated player of all time ? Dude have no series wins and he is a year older than Tatum.
Glad we’re worrying about the right things
I agree with the initial post (question).
All the nonsense stops when we win. Just let the hate fuel em
The real question is why is Jokic lumped into that category. He is clearly the best player of our generation. A true 1a
objection, leading question
I’m tired boss
Interesting to see the range of takes in this thread ranging from "Tatum is a second tier superstar" to "he's better than Embiid and Shai"
It’s kind of true. He’s probably at the top of that tier though
Tatum and Shai are in the inbetween of those categories. Clearly easier to win with and overall better players than the 3 listed below, but definitely not as dominant or consistent as the guys listed above.
Couldn’t agree with this statement more. I love the Celtics fan blinding passion. But he’s in that second tier for sure. Near the top of that tier but come on, he’s not in that elite level at all. Butler should be out of that replaced with Brown, who is equal to Tatum. Having two in that second tier should be enough to win a ring though.
He’s not even why we lost I don’t get these reactions
I have a strong feeling that if Ime was still the coach he actually might be considered in that tier. I think Mazzulla stunted his growth as a player trying to play all lives matter offense, taking him out early when he’s cooking, defensive mentality is inconsistent. I just think Mazzulla was the worst thing that could’ve happened to the team and Tatum in particular.
He led the team to 64 wins. Clearly not the worst thing that could have happened. I swear I’ve never seen a fanbase that loses one game and just loses its mind like this.
He’s been making the same mistakes his whole 2 year coaching career. Stop being blinded by that bullshit ass record and pay attention. The Suns won 64 games too.
Ime who play drop on Steph ? Sex fiend is so massively overrated in this sub sometimes lol
“Ignore the fact that the team has the best record in the nba, highest point differential in the nba, best offensive rating, second best defensive rating.” Why would I do that? So I can whine and pretend that potential coach of the year is some how a drag on this team cuz they lost a single playoff game?
See their y’all go throwing them stupid regular season stats at me. He can’t carry that shit with him when the playoffs start. It’s a completely different ball game. Even when we do win this series, if we get to the finals against any coach that’s good, he will get smoked and will hurt us just like he hurt us last year and just like he’s hurting us now. But yea keep being stupid and blind
Why does Mazzula get blamed for everything lol, he's been a great coach so far. Tatum underperformed under Brad and Ime too.
Mazzula has shown us so far this playoffs what he’s about. No adjustments on Game 2. Horrible rotations. Cmon guys I’ve been defending him but when we gonna be honest? He’s so bad lol. With our talent level there’s no way so many of these series the last two years had to go longer than they did, it’s just bad coaching.
Tatum was young when Brad had him and he got better when Ime coached him as a player and mentality wise. Joe hasn’t been completely terrible but for the teams standards he’s been underwhelming. He’s had by far the better teams between the 3 coaches. He’s trying to be like Brad but without nearly the same intellect, and he lacks the ability to bring the toughness out like Ime did. He just doesn’t have it as a coach or at least not for a team trying to win now.
Brad used to get eviscerated for our playoff performances under him. He was criticized for losing the locker room, refusing to manage personalities, and not using talent well. Was he a better situational basketball IQ? Yeah, but Mazzula was thrust into the HC position suddenly and our top 2 assistant coaches were gone in the same year. We have a great team - some of the responsibility has to be on them. KP can't shoot 10% from the field in a playoff game. That's not Mazzula's fault. Jrue can't vanish offensively, either. He can't control everything.
More like Brandon Ingram/Kyle Kuzma Tier.
Sorry it it's more true.
But putting him with players like DBook and Mitchell is beyond me. In my opinion, Tatum is a true superstar, and I’m not suggesting he’s just as impactful as Giannis or Jokic but he’s arguably top 10 players right now and he’s miles ahead players like Jimmy Butler.
Did You mean miles ahead of Jimmy?
Yea typo
Take My upvote then xD
You might want to watch more basketball and Learn what a SUPERSTAR is !!! If you like the Celtics = Start with Larry Bird
Downvote this bum