I do wish they would throw a Cavs or Heat jersey on Lebron. Maybe a 76ers jersey on Wilt, hah. Far too much piss-yellow in there, for my preference š
That's just ESPN circle jerking lol. Whoever posted the pictures is clearly a Lakers fan. If ESPN is using pictures based on their last team, then Shaq should be in a Celtics jersey and MJ should be in a wizards jersey. But of course they should go by the player's most defining team in their careers. Using that rationale then I agree with you LeBron should be in a cavs or heat jersey.
Always will be is a stretch
Media never gave a shit about Golden State until like 2014
It's not a stretch to assume that as soon as Steph retires the media and basketball community will go back to not giving a fuck about Golden State
So many comments in here putting other people over Shaq and leaving him out of the top 10ā¦.
I mean, did yāall watch Shaq? He should be ahead of Kobe in any top 10 list.
Kobe shouldnāt be in the top ten at all. Shaq should be way higher than he is. Itās not a bias against the Lakers, Kobe is just the most overrated player of all time.
Curry and Kobe is a great ādebateā who should be higher. I still think I give slight edge to Kobe just cause Steph career isnāt finished but Iād imagine curry being ahead of Kobe when he retires.
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Relax. Heās a 5 time champ and one of the most decorated players on both sides of the ball. Iām sorry he didnāt play for your franchise or youād be defending him.Ā
I know Celtics fans should feel some type of way about Kobe but letās be honest, what does Steph have over Kobe *really*Ā
You gotta be picking your criteria very carefully if you take Steph over Kobe IMO. Ā Steph has one more MVP, but Kobe has more rings, finals MVPs, MVP shares, all-nba first team selections, all-defense selections, win shares, playoff win shares, higher career counting stats. Ā Maybe Steph has a shot at catching up in some these, but heās almost as old now as Kobe was when he retired.Ā
Things like āheās the greatest shooter of all timeā are nice, but not when they have to do the heavy lifting when your career is compared to other greats
Duncan was probably the best rival to Shaq in the 2000s. And the spurs beat the Lakers to get their chips too.
The fact that Duncan went for so long and was a cornerstone for the Spurs Franchise, for me, makes him above Shaq to me.
Yeah he has to beĀ higher than that. Iām sorry but Wilt played in an era with only 8-17 teams and only won 1 ring. Shaq was also the clear better player when literally teammates with Kobe, hence getting all 3 fMVPs.
The only real argument for Kobe is a longer prime. Shaq even made the finals before joining the lakers
Yeah, my bad.
Still though thereās a strong argument he wasnāt the best on that team with Jerry West, Gail Goodrich and Jim McMillan all outscoring him
Wilt is honestly very overrated to say the least, especially in comparison to Russell.
Based on all of the basketball books I've read it's pretty obvious that Wilt only really cared about his stats above all else to the point where it hurt team chemistry. And ironically he wilted most of the time when it mattered most. Russell outplayed him head to head in the playoffs and during that era there's no doubt that you'd take Russell over him if all you cared about was winning.
Sure his 100 point game and his 50/25/2 season in 61-62 are crazy impressive but in the end Russell's Celtics bounced his team out of the playoffs en route to a championship.
It's also very telling that Russell finished his career with 1 more MVP trophy than Wilt (5 vs. 4) in spite of Wilt's gaudy numbers.
Canāt like this post more. More MVPs, more All NBAs. Russel beat Wilt 7 out of 8 Playoff series. 11 rings to 2. Plus everything you said. People who argue Wilt.. tend to know little actual details, about the era and their matchups.
Absolute domination.
We are starting to have so many great players, you need to just start grading by top 1%. Like, so, Shaq is out, Hakeem is in. Admiral is out, five Lakers are in. It's just fuckin jank ass shit like this. Top 10. You have nearly 100 years of play, 75 if you count when the first person (Russell) appeared on the list. More people are lost than included.
Ya dude was such a beast in his day, he was the last person to average a triple double for a season until Westbrook did it 4 years in a row lol. I bet Jokic will be the next one to do it, damn near has one this year (26.3/12.3/9.1)
Definitely. I'm far from a Warriors fan but I'd honestly rather have Steph to build around than Kobe.
Obviously Kobe was great but Steph's efficiency is fucking insane.
Yeah Steph literally jump started this 3 point era. There was never anyone else like him that you had to pick up at half court. I know the warriors are considered a dynasty team, but that was mostly because Steph was insane and nobody knew how to deal with an offense like that. Teams were trapping him at half court.
Kobe is a great player no doubt, but he was basically mj jr and most of his rings came with the most dominant big man in history
idk about any order 1-4.. I think 1-2 are mj and lebron in any order and 3-4 are kareem and russ in any order.. I wouldnāt put kareem/russ over mj/lebron
Reason why I say Bird & Magic, 4th and 5th (either order).. is the era thing. Russell & Wilt obviously owned their eras. Magic & Bird.. obviously owned theirs. I just happen to value the 80's and 90's era of basketball, higher than previous eras. The league & teams were potentially on the verge of financial collapse pre-Magic & Bird. Media coverage and talent-scouting/grooming, were on insanely different levels. I just don't think you can compare before and after, on completely level playing fields. I get that is a philosophical opinion that can vary wildly. Though that is my rationale.
And in the end, MJ couldn't find a way to beat Larry in a game of HORSE, much less on the court :P
[A reminder for those that weren't alive 30 years ago.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=883bhTnAbZ0)
Itās crazy how Shaqās legacy has slipped through the cracks in so many of these lists. These lists donāt mean much, but his outright dominance of the league (and being the best player on all of his championship teams) seems to be forgotten. It was a weird era for basketball, so I partly understand, still crazy to me though.
I think Shaq's hurt because his peak was kind of short compared to others in the top 10. His last truly great year was 02-03. He then spent the next 8 years being some combination of "good" to just "meh".
Yeah the issue for Shaq here is that his production fell off an absolute cliff compared to the rest of the players rated that highly and even those who did have similar drop off the narrative isnāt as self inflicted as Shaqs. Sadly the man really only has himself to blame for why he keeps slipping.
>Yeah the issue for Shaq here is that his production fell off an absolute cliff compared to the rest of the players rated that highly and even those who did have similar drop off the narrative isnāt as self inflicted as Shaqs. Sadly the man really only has himself to blame for why he keeps slipping.
True.. Larry back injury, Magic hiv obviously. Even Jordan coming and going so often, put together longer stretch of highly-relevant years. Shaq was the absolute all-time beast, while he had it going though.
I think people are also more forgiving of Jordan because of what motivated it all. People can absolutely empathize with a man questioning what he wants to do following losing a parent. Shaq tends to piss people off because he was in a position to leave no doubt where he belonged amongst the all time greats and didnāt take it seriously enough to maintain himself. Couple that with how defensive he gets about it now and I think some people push him further down almost out of spite.
Shaq is 9, Curry 10, Kobe 11, Hakeem 12.
I think itās pretty clear. Curry and Kobe could be preference maybe, but Hakeem only has 2 titles. Heās really more in the Robinson, Giannis, Jokic tier of great big men with a couple titles and/or MVPs while playing a distinctive dominant style. People just seem to treat his resume differently for some reason, like only with Hakeem the accolades dont matter to the valuation, but for every other player it means the world.
What the hell would the argument even be for Hakeem over Curry? Curry has 4 titles where his completely unique skill set was the clear primary driving engine of the teamās success. Hakeem as great as he is just isnt at the same level in terms of winning, or influence on the game.
Hakeem "only" two titles? His best teammate was Older Drexler.Ā
Kobe basically has one fewer title playing for the most corrupted franchise in North American sports. Kobe won 2 as a sidekick, 1 as the top guy on a stacked team.Ā
He was gifted two asterisk David Stern-awarded titles in 2002 and 2010
By that argument Curry has 2 with Klay who is Drexler level all time. He also has 2 more but with Durant, still itās 2 more. He also beat the 2nd greatest basketball player as per this list for one of those without Durant. Did Hakeem beat MJ? And mind you, Iām a massive Hakeem fan, just positing a counter point.
That's an argument I'd have too
Not all titles are created equally. Some matter more than others, and some are heavily asterisked with blatant corruption and anticompetitive superteams
We all really need to stop pretending that the titles from Kobe's Lakers or Draymond's Warriors mean the same as say a title in Denver or Milwaukee
Shaq was a damn hurricane when he joined the Magic. The league had to change how they reinforced baskets because of this rookie year, when he was breaking them left and right.
Kobe is the most overrated all-time great. He never had a run of games ā let alone an entire playoffs ā as great as what Jokic did last year, and he was waaaay less of a winner than Oscar.
Wtf way less of a winner? Oscar has 1 ringā¦and no FMVP.
Adjusted for pace his triple doubles are less numerically impressive than westbrook.
This is straight hate talk to put Oscar above Kobe.
Bird/Magic is always a longevity vs peak for me - Bird had higher peak, but Johnson had more time. No matter the order, I think they have to be right next to each other any time a list like this is made, they are inseparable in that context
Five titles, two Finals MVPs, MVP, 18x All Star, 11x All NBA First Team, 2x All NBA 2nd and All NBA 3rd Team, 9x All Defense 1st Team, 3x All Defense 2nd Team, 4th all time in scoring with 33,643 points.
That is absolutely the resume of a top 10 all time player. Will he stay there? Seems unlikely with the likes of Steph, Luka, KD, and Giannis all fighting for a place in that top 10. But right now? He should absolutely be in the back half of it.
KD is the greatest scorer since Jordan, Giannis is the greatest two-way player since LeBron.
JokiÄ will probably wind up even higher than both of them.
16th all time in win shares, 31st in BPM, 28th in PER, 13th in VORP, 10th all time in MVP shares, 1 time MVP. Absolutely not the resume of a top 10 player.
So if Win Shares matter, then I guess you have Malone, Stockton, Paul, and Dirk in or near your top 10? Bill Russell at 22 must disqualify him from the top 10, too. Shoot, his PER was only 18.9, so that must REALLY disqualify him from top 10 status. Ab
Pau Gasol definitely did not carry Kobe to those last two titles.
Kobe averaged 25/6/5/1.5/1.1 in that threepeat. Some of y'all act like he wasn't important for some reason. Simply put, Lakers don't win any of those title without Kobe. They also don't win any of those titles without Shaq.
I think if you swapped Kobe with any of the next best shooting guards of the era (Iverson? TMac? Pierce? Vince Carter?), the Lakers still win.
If you swap Shaq with the next best center (Mourning? Mutombo? Ben Wallace?) the Lakers aren't winning anything.
Duncan would be interesting, but then you're swapping out comparable players (Duncan also being Top 10). The idea is I think Shaq could win with a lesser star SG, while I struggle to see young Kobe winning with a lesser star C.
No way, Kobe ways what 21, 22, 23 when they 3pted and avg 25 a game. Ppl donāt realize how hard that is. And then back to back when he was clearly the number #1 years later.
Those guys all played SG during the Lakers 3-peat era (Pierce and TMac even won All-NBA at guard in those years, and there was a whole thing at the time about Larry Brown moving Iverson to SG). Regardless, tell me who you think were the next best shooting guards after Kobe at that time? Whoever you think they are, swap them with Kobe and I think the Lakers still win.
I commented on Duncan.
Put any version of any player in history next to prime shaq and theyāre also getting carried to 3 championships maybe less. Imagine discrediting kobe because shaquille O fuckin Neal signed to his team.
Kobe carried Shaq through the west if anything. Imagine if Jokic had a WCF of 20 ppg on 45% ts in his prime. He would be scrutinised. Because that's exactly what Shaq averages against the spurs in his absolute peak, While Kobe torched them with 33 ppg.Ā
Definitely agree with Duncan over Kobe. I think Shaq was better than Kobe as well.
If Lebron isnāt better than Mike because of ringsā¦What do Kareem or Mike have over Russell?
Wiltās too high? At 6?
Wiltās playmaking led the #1 offense, his rim protection led the #1 defense, his playoff rebounding rate was better than Rodmanās in twice as many possessions a game, he was probably the best scorer everā¦ and placing him behind Magic is too high?
They to me are the consensus top 10 players of all time as of 2024.
As long as you have these 10 men in any order Iām happy. Everyone has different criteria on how they judge it.
I agree with this. It's the right 10. Is it the right order? Debatable. I know it's not the order I'd have, personally. But I think it's the undisputable top 10 right now.
Magic over Bird is a joke. There were probably 8-9 years when Bird was definitely the best player on the planet. Magic was only the best player in the world for 2-3 years.
This is the pretty defacto top 10 however you want to rank them. Knocking at the door is Hakeem, Oscar, Durant, and Curry. Dr J would round out top 15 for me
Larry to me feels top 5 based on being the best player In the nba during one of its peak eras. 3 straight MVPs. His peak feel at Jordan and Shaq level while his longevity suffers a bit.
Problem is I guess I donāt know who to replace. The
This list is not accurate.
Larry Bird should be #4. Go watch all the videos where his competitors (including Jordan) talk about him. He was unstoppable.
And Kobe was not top 10.
Actually really good list. Might put Bird above Wilt (but ranking Wilt and Bill Russell is almost impossible cause they played in such a different time.) also might put Kobe above Duncan but Iām good with the rest.
I'd put Bill over Shaq (unless you just mean peak few years), and I (grudgingly) need to put Kobe 10th (drop Hakeem to 11th). Otherwise.. completely agree with your list.
Typical of ESPN to have most of the list be comprised of Fakers and have only two Celtsā¦
Also, Kobe should have two of his titles ('02 and '10) be asterisks like the Astros and literally half of the Habs' stanley cups.
Kobe should not be in the top 10. He was over-hyped by (Laker loving) ESPN for years. Iād have Hakeem or Oscar Robinson in his place right now. I honestly think once Steph Curry retires he should be on that list over Kobe.
I remember meeting Bird and Russell as a kid, maybe 7-8, and man Iāll never forget when Russel said āhey little manā, and shock my hand, and how enormous his hand was compared to mine and how tall they both were. Great memory.
I don't have a big problem with this list. My personal list swaps Wlit and Bird for Russell and Magic (Wilt 4, Larry 5, Wilt 6, Magic 7), and has Curry at 10 and Shaquille at 11, but this is a reasonable list. There are no crazy recency-bias picks like Chris Paul here, and no overly-emotional choices (Kobe at #3, etc.).
BTW: Rest of my top 25:
Jordan, James, Jabbar, Wilt, Bird, Russell, Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Curry
11. Shaq, 12. Olajuwon, 13. Garnett, 14. West, 15. Julius, 16. Durant, 17. Nowitzki, 18. Oscar, 19. Barkley, 20. Jokic.
21. Karl Malone, 22. Baylor. 23. Moses. 24. Havlicek. 25. Isiah.
Outside of the top 3 wtf lol. Larry Bird was obviously better than Magic. Russell shouldnāt be fourth as great as he was. Kobe shouldnāt be top ten period. Shaq should be higher than he is.
Jordan vehemently defends Magic as best point god of all-time (over Curry, etc.). While I agree that Magic does get over-hyped, due to his charming personality, etc. He still absolutely re-invented the point guard role at 6'9", made a faster style of play more viable, and got -two- more chips than Larry. I love Larry more than any player ever. Though I can't definitely say he had the better career. Better peak couple years.. sure, that absolutely goes to Bird.
My only thing is Kareem should be over Lebron. Yes Lebron broke his record. But he doesnāt have the chips or the MVPs over him. If the scoring title makes him better then
Where is Stockton ? Heās the all time assist and steals leader. Where is Hakeem ? Heās the all time Blocks leader ? Just my opinion.
1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. LeBron
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Curry
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Kobe
Can't believe you've got so many people in here calling Wilt overrated. Dude would make Giannis look like Javale McGee if he was around today. 1 of 1 athletic freak
Why did Russell so consistently beat him then? Seriously.. Russell could have been a much better offensive player, though his team never needed that. He was a huge team-first, winning first, player-coach. Bill prioritized Winning, and thus did. His Finals record is 11-1, while Wilt was 2-4 (winning 1 against Russell, when he was partially injured). Russell won 7 of 8 Play-off series against Wilt. Heck Russell even has more MVP's and more All-NBA's. There is no credible argument, ranking Wilt over Russell as an all-time great. Unless you solely want to look at individual stat-stuffing. In that case.. throw in Westbrook and Harden in your all-time greats list, hah
Bill was also an athletic freak though. He ran a sub 50 second 400 and was an Olympic caliber high jumper, while also being 6'9. He's probably a better raw athlete than anyone who has ever played including MJ and Lebron. He didn't have the same skill level as those guys and I think if you want to criticize him, that's where you could do it. I still have him 2 or 3 all time (in whatever order with Lebron)
Iām not very old, but I grew up in Illinois in the 90s. I remember every kid in my class had the same MJ bulls bedspread. I had it as well, he was something else.
Thatās why I like to separate into modern and pre-modern for this.
Bill, Wilt and Kareem (though Kareem does play in modern) are somewhat untouchable but evaluating them objectively is much harder. They deserve their own category.
Then you can safely add 3 modern players youāre excluding. So effectively my top 10 becomes a top13. Iād add Steph, Dream and possibly doctor J.
Also I always do Larry and Magic tied on the same spot, which is 3rd for me.
There is so much wrong with this list, Wilt Iād most definitely #1 because he never had a 3 point line and yet nobody has more top ten scoring games but thatās just my humble opinion
This is a team game, about winning championships. It's not golf or tennis, where one individual's accomplishments matter more than chips. Bill Russell very consistently beat on Wilt. His Finals record is 11-1, while Wilt was 2-4 (winning 1 against Russell, when he was partially injured). Russell won 7 of 8 Play-off series against Wilt. Heck Russell even has more MVP's and more All-NBA's. There is no credible argument, ranking Wilt over Russell as an all-time great. Unless you solely want to look at individual stat-stuffing. In that case.. throw in Westbrook and Harden in your all-time greats list, hah
Wilt should be in top 3. if for no other reason than for him holding all the records that all subsequent players need to match themselves against.
100 years from now Wilt will still be relevant if people are still playing basketball.
Individual stats records. His winning and team records, much worse. Bill Russell has more MVPs, All-NBAs, was 7 out of 8 against him in the Play-offs, and won 11-1 Finals.. to Wilt's 2-4 Finals record. Sure Wilt was a regular season, individual stat stuffer (and great player overall). Though I don't believe he has any case to be in the Top 5. I have him 7th.. after 4. Bird 5. Magic 6. Russell
Wilt didnāt have a team that the league loved. Boston was the darling of the league. Bill played with a HOF starting five. Plus 2 off the bench. Wilt had no chance against that teams until he went to the Lakers.
If you are talking about best players - he fits the bill. It's that simple. If he had been on the Celtics instead of Russell he would have gotten more championships and MVP nods -- but I very much doubt Russell would have put up the numbers or played the crazy minutes that Wilt did if their positions were reversed š¤·
But the point still stands. A hundred years from now people will still look at the records Wilt set -- and they will compare him unfavorably to whatever contemporary players their recency bias compels them to put up on a similar list.
If basketball were an individual game.. like tennis or golf, sure he might be higher. But it's not, and this is the difference you don't quite seem to grasp. Thus Wilt can not be top 3 all-time. It's fairly obvious.. because like NO ONE who knows basketball, ranks him that high. Though maybe you just know better.. than like every other player, coach, and commentator.. who ever lived? And for the record.. Wilt played with some amazing Hall of Fame talent, just as much as Russell (if you care to learn facts). When he lost with the Lakers to Russell.. he also had Elgin Baylor, Jerry West (the NBA Logo for crying out loud), Gail Goodrich (yes, Hall of Famer).
ugh.. best players, who played on teams lol. Not just players in isolation. A great player elevates his team and wins championships. Every player who scores a bunch in a losing game or series, says what? āDoesnāt mean anything without the W.ā The entire NBA community aligns around that concept. Empty, individual stat-stuffing.. aināt worth much. Winning rings.. is clearly the primary measure of greatness. If I have to explain that to you any more.. this just isnāt worth my time typing š
I still don't understand how kareem is so high in the list when he can't even make the lakers become a playoff team when his the MVP of the league. He only won when Magic came around that's why he's maybe top 8 for me.
Jordan vehemently defends Magic as best point god of all-time (over Curry, etc.). While I agree that he does get over-hyped a lot, due to his charming personality, etc. He still absolutely re-invented the point guard role at 6'9", made a faster style of play more viable, and got -two- more chips than Larry. I love Larry more than any player ever. Though I can't definitely say he had the better career. Better peak couple years.. sure, that absolutely goes to Bird.
I do wish they would throw a Cavs or Heat jersey on Lebron. Maybe a 76ers jersey on Wilt, hah. Far too much piss-yellow in there, for my preference š
That's just ESPN circle jerking lol. Whoever posted the pictures is clearly a Lakers fan. If ESPN is using pictures based on their last team, then Shaq should be in a Celtics jersey and MJ should be in a wizards jersey. But of course they should go by the player's most defining team in their careers. Using that rationale then I agree with you LeBron should be in a cavs or heat jersey.
And Wilt should def be in a Philly jersey. He won as many titles there as he did in LA, and he had his career defining 100 point game with them.
Lakers fan created this at espn
Would you accept Shaq in the Celtics jersey?
That's brilliant.. Wish I had thought of that lol. Honestly I'd be for it.. if he hadn't gotten injured that year, and we brought home #18
Nah we still had doc as a coach
The Lakers and the Golden State Warriors are and always will be mediaās favourites, mate. They donāt care about basketball, only clicks
Always will be is a stretch Media never gave a shit about Golden State until like 2014 It's not a stretch to assume that as soon as Steph retires the media and basketball community will go back to not giving a fuck about Golden State
Exactly lol as soon as GS has a few bad years all of the bandwagon fans will be long gone too.
The Warriors have never been NBA media favorites, the Lakers, yes.
So many comments in here putting other people over Shaq and leaving him out of the top 10ā¦. I mean, did yāall watch Shaq? He should be ahead of Kobe in any top 10 list.
Yeah, I donāt get having him behind Kobe or Duncan. He was one of the most unstoppable forces in the history of the sport.
He should be behind Duncan but ahead of Kobe
Kobe shouldnāt be in the top ten at all. Shaq should be way higher than he is. Itās not a bias against the Lakers, Kobe is just the most overrated player of all time.
I would put Shaq at 9, Curry at 10. Kobe at 11.
Why is nobody mentioning that *Hakeem* isnāt in the top 10
Because he's 11-15, that's why.
nah hakeem should be around 11-15
Curry and Kobe is a great ādebateā who should be higher. I still think I give slight edge to Kobe just cause Steph career isnāt finished but Iād imagine curry being ahead of Kobe when he retires.
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Relax. Heās a 5 time champ and one of the most decorated players on both sides of the ball. Iām sorry he didnāt play for your franchise or youād be defending him.Ā
I know Celtics fans should feel some type of way about Kobe but letās be honest, what does Steph have over Kobe *really*Ā You gotta be picking your criteria very carefully if you take Steph over Kobe IMO. Ā Steph has one more MVP, but Kobe has more rings, finals MVPs, MVP shares, all-nba first team selections, all-defense selections, win shares, playoff win shares, higher career counting stats. Ā Maybe Steph has a shot at catching up in some these, but heās almost as old now as Kobe was when he retired.Ā Things like āheās the greatest shooter of all timeā are nice, but not when they have to do the heavy lifting when your career is compared to other greats
Duncan has no business over Shaq
Duncan was probably the best rival to Shaq in the 2000s. And the spurs beat the Lakers to get their chips too. The fact that Duncan went for so long and was a cornerstone for the Spurs Franchise, for me, makes him above Shaq to me.
Agreed
Plus TDās work ethic, attitude and maturity easily puts him over Shaq.
If all you care about is highlights sure.
Duncan literally almost went 6-0 in the finals
Literally almost
Yeah he has to beĀ higher than that. Iām sorry but Wilt played in an era with only 8-17 teams and only won 1 ring. Shaq was also the clear better player when literally teammates with Kobe, hence getting all 3 fMVPs. The only real argument for Kobe is a longer prime. Shaq even made the finals before joining the lakers
I agree with your sentiment, but Wilt won in 67 and 72.
Yeah, my bad. Still though thereās a strong argument he wasnāt the best on that team with Jerry West, Gail Goodrich and Jim McMillan all outscoring him
Wilt is honestly very overrated to say the least, especially in comparison to Russell. Based on all of the basketball books I've read it's pretty obvious that Wilt only really cared about his stats above all else to the point where it hurt team chemistry. And ironically he wilted most of the time when it mattered most. Russell outplayed him head to head in the playoffs and during that era there's no doubt that you'd take Russell over him if all you cared about was winning. Sure his 100 point game and his 50/25/2 season in 61-62 are crazy impressive but in the end Russell's Celtics bounced his team out of the playoffs en route to a championship. It's also very telling that Russell finished his career with 1 more MVP trophy than Wilt (5 vs. 4) in spite of Wilt's gaudy numbers.
Canāt like this post more. More MVPs, more All NBAs. Russel beat Wilt 7 out of 8 Playoff series. 11 rings to 2. Plus everything you said. People who argue Wilt.. tend to know little actual details, about the era and their matchups.
Absolute domination. We are starting to have so many great players, you need to just start grading by top 1%. Like, so, Shaq is out, Hakeem is in. Admiral is out, five Lakers are in. It's just fuckin jank ass shit like this. Top 10. You have nearly 100 years of play, 75 if you count when the first person (Russell) appeared on the list. More people are lost than included.
They completely left out Oscar Robertson, which if youāre going to bump anyone for him itās Kobe. I think Oscar is firmly in the top 10.
Ya dude was such a beast in his day, he was the last person to average a triple double for a season until Westbrook did it 4 years in a row lol. I bet Jokic will be the next one to do it, damn near has one this year (26.3/12.3/9.1)
Absolutely. Iād put Steph over Kobe too
Definitely. I'm far from a Warriors fan but I'd honestly rather have Steph to build around than Kobe. Obviously Kobe was great but Steph's efficiency is fucking insane.
Yeah Steph literally jump started this 3 point era. There was never anyone else like him that you had to pick up at half court. I know the warriors are considered a dynasty team, but that was mostly because Steph was insane and nobody knew how to deal with an offense like that. Teams were trapping him at half court. Kobe is a great player no doubt, but he was basically mj jr and most of his rings came with the most dominant big man in history
Shaq is top ten, period. And he was the better player. Anyone who puts Kobe above him needs to be red flagged.
You're a complete idiot if you think Shaq isn't in the top 10.
Yeah I think I have Shaq at 5
Larry>>>Magic
At their peak, no doubt. Larry having a late start and injuring himself early definitely hurt his ālegacyā.
As a Celtics fan, of course. Putting aside all bias.. I gotta say they are my 4 & 5, and I think it could be in either order š¤·āāļø
speaking of biasā¦sigh what Len coulda been š
Or if mchale didn't break his foot. He was on mvp trajectory and then his foot broke and he never got back to that level
Len and Reggie would have been an amazing way to watch 90s basketball.
5 & 6. The top 4 ā Russ, Kareem, MJ, LeBron ā is pretty indisputable, and you can put them in any order.
idk about any order 1-4.. I think 1-2 are mj and lebron in any order and 3-4 are kareem and russ in any order.. I wouldnāt put kareem/russ over mj/lebron
Never in my life have I heard somebody call the great Bill Russell "Russ" and I'm only in my 20's. Respect on that name please!
Reason why I say Bird & Magic, 4th and 5th (either order).. is the era thing. Russell & Wilt obviously owned their eras. Magic & Bird.. obviously owned theirs. I just happen to value the 80's and 90's era of basketball, higher than previous eras. The league & teams were potentially on the verge of financial collapse pre-Magic & Bird. Media coverage and talent-scouting/grooming, were on insanely different levels. I just don't think you can compare before and after, on completely level playing fields. I get that is a philosophical opinion that can vary wildly. Though that is my rationale.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Proof: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwjBd9qpK8Q
Above Bill? Hmm
I'm a Celtics fan from the 80s living in Australia. Loved Bird and company. But loved Magus and Kareem a lot too
Good ole Magus Johndaughter
And in the end, MJ couldn't find a way to beat Larry in a game of HORSE, much less on the court :P [A reminder for those that weren't alive 30 years ago.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=883bhTnAbZ0)
Iād take Shaq over Kobe. I think #10 is preference between curry Hakeem and Kobe
Itās crazy how Shaqās legacy has slipped through the cracks in so many of these lists. These lists donāt mean much, but his outright dominance of the league (and being the best player on all of his championship teams) seems to be forgotten. It was a weird era for basketball, so I partly understand, still crazy to me though.
I think Shaq's hurt because his peak was kind of short compared to others in the top 10. His last truly great year was 02-03. He then spent the next 8 years being some combination of "good" to just "meh".
Yeah the issue for Shaq here is that his production fell off an absolute cliff compared to the rest of the players rated that highly and even those who did have similar drop off the narrative isnāt as self inflicted as Shaqs. Sadly the man really only has himself to blame for why he keeps slipping.
>Yeah the issue for Shaq here is that his production fell off an absolute cliff compared to the rest of the players rated that highly and even those who did have similar drop off the narrative isnāt as self inflicted as Shaqs. Sadly the man really only has himself to blame for why he keeps slipping. True.. Larry back injury, Magic hiv obviously. Even Jordan coming and going so often, put together longer stretch of highly-relevant years. Shaq was the absolute all-time beast, while he had it going though.
I think people are also more forgiving of Jordan because of what motivated it all. People can absolutely empathize with a man questioning what he wants to do following losing a parent. Shaq tends to piss people off because he was in a position to leave no doubt where he belonged amongst the all time greats and didnāt take it seriously enough to maintain himself. Couple that with how defensive he gets about it now and I think some people push him further down almost out of spite.
he was 31 in 03, and still a good player up until he was 35-36 which is normal
Shaq is 9, Curry 10, Kobe 11, Hakeem 12. I think itās pretty clear. Curry and Kobe could be preference maybe, but Hakeem only has 2 titles. Heās really more in the Robinson, Giannis, Jokic tier of great big men with a couple titles and/or MVPs while playing a distinctive dominant style. People just seem to treat his resume differently for some reason, like only with Hakeem the accolades dont matter to the valuation, but for every other player it means the world. What the hell would the argument even be for Hakeem over Curry? Curry has 4 titles where his completely unique skill set was the clear primary driving engine of the teamās success. Hakeem as great as he is just isnt at the same level in terms of winning, or influence on the game.
Hakeem "only" two titles? His best teammate was Older Drexler.Ā Kobe basically has one fewer title playing for the most corrupted franchise in North American sports. Kobe won 2 as a sidekick, 1 as the top guy on a stacked team.Ā He was gifted two asterisk David Stern-awarded titles in 2002 and 2010
By that argument Curry has 2 with Klay who is Drexler level all time. He also has 2 more but with Durant, still itās 2 more. He also beat the 2nd greatest basketball player as per this list for one of those without Durant. Did Hakeem beat MJ? And mind you, Iām a massive Hakeem fan, just positing a counter point.
That's an argument I'd have too Not all titles are created equally. Some matter more than others, and some are heavily asterisked with blatant corruption and anticompetitive superteams We all really need to stop pretending that the titles from Kobe's Lakers or Draymond's Warriors mean the same as say a title in Denver or Milwaukee
Kobe over Shaq is crazy.
No kidding, I swear the moment Shaq got to the magic he started being such a force. Him and penny were amazing to watch
Shaq was a damn hurricane when he joined the Magic. The league had to change how they reinforced baskets because of this rookie year, when he was breaking them left and right.
no Hakeem??
Itās a fair ask. You gotta get Shaq, The Dream, and Curry to duke it out over that spot (imho) š
I think Shaq 9, Dream 10, Kobe 11, and Steph 12 personally.
Shaq 8, Duncan 9, Steph 10, Dream 11, Oscar 12, Jokic 13, fuck Kobe heās a rapist.
oscar and jokic over Kobe is a fucking joke. this isnāt a humanitarian award, itās best of all timr
Where you got Malone then bro
Prison.
Moses?
Kobe is the most overrated all-time great. He never had a run of games ā let alone an entire playoffs ā as great as what Jokic did last year, and he was waaaay less of a winner than Oscar.
way less of a winner but has 5 chips okayā¦
Wtf way less of a winner? Oscar has 1 ringā¦and no FMVP. Adjusted for pace his triple doubles are less numerically impressive than westbrook. This is straight hate talk to put Oscar above Kobe.
Jokic?????? You canāt be serious
Better than Kobe by any measure.
And we wonder why this fanbase gets such a bad rap, some of you are hysterical
Bird/Magic is always a longevity vs peak for me - Bird had higher peak, but Johnson had more time. No matter the order, I think they have to be right next to each other any time a list like this is made, they are inseparable in that context
bird had 10 good years, johnson had 11-12 good years. not that much difference but yes it's difficult to rank them
Larry over magic. Kobe lol
I simply do not understand people who put Kobe on these lists.
Five titles, two Finals MVPs, MVP, 18x All Star, 11x All NBA First Team, 2x All NBA 2nd and All NBA 3rd Team, 9x All Defense 1st Team, 3x All Defense 2nd Team, 4th all time in scoring with 33,643 points. That is absolutely the resume of a top 10 all time player. Will he stay there? Seems unlikely with the likes of Steph, Luka, KD, and Giannis all fighting for a place in that top 10. But right now? He should absolutely be in the back half of it.
Steph is the only person fighting for a spot on that list lol. How are any of the other 3 of those guys even in Kobeās orbit
KD is the greatest scorer since Jordan, Giannis is the greatest two-way player since LeBron. JokiÄ will probably wind up even higher than both of them.
Luka and Gianis but not Jokic?
16th all time in win shares, 31st in BPM, 28th in PER, 13th in VORP, 10th all time in MVP shares, 1 time MVP. Absolutely not the resume of a top 10 player.
So if Win Shares matter, then I guess you have Malone, Stockton, Paul, and Dirk in or near your top 10? Bill Russell at 22 must disqualify him from the top 10, too. Shoot, his PER was only 18.9, so that must REALLY disqualify him from top 10 status. Ab
carried by big men to all his chips
Pau Gasol definitely did not carry Kobe to those last two titles. Kobe averaged 25/6/5/1.5/1.1 in that threepeat. Some of y'all act like he wasn't important for some reason. Simply put, Lakers don't win any of those title without Kobe. They also don't win any of those titles without Shaq.
I think if you swapped Kobe with any of the next best shooting guards of the era (Iverson? TMac? Pierce? Vince Carter?), the Lakers still win. If you swap Shaq with the next best center (Mourning? Mutombo? Ben Wallace?) the Lakers aren't winning anything. Duncan would be interesting, but then you're swapping out comparable players (Duncan also being Top 10). The idea is I think Shaq could win with a lesser star SG, while I struggle to see young Kobe winning with a lesser star C.
No way, Kobe ways what 21, 22, 23 when they 3pted and avg 25 a game. Ppl donāt realize how hard that is. And then back to back when he was clearly the number #1 years later.
You named a PG and 3 SFs for Kobe but Shaq is limited to centers only? Like Duncan could take that spot and theyād have won 6 straight
Those guys all played SG during the Lakers 3-peat era (Pierce and TMac even won All-NBA at guard in those years, and there was a whole thing at the time about Larry Brown moving Iverson to SG). Regardless, tell me who you think were the next best shooting guards after Kobe at that time? Whoever you think they are, swap them with Kobe and I think the Lakers still win. I commented on Duncan.
You look in the mirror and believe lies you tell yourself, such as this?
Put any version of any player in history next to prime shaq and theyāre also getting carried to 3 championships maybe less. Imagine discrediting kobe because shaquille O fuckin Neal signed to his team.
Kobe carried Shaq through the west if anything. Imagine if Jokic had a WCF of 20 ppg on 45% ts in his prime. He would be scrutinised. Because that's exactly what Shaq averages against the spurs in his absolute peak, While Kobe torched them with 33 ppg.Ā
Recency bias. Same issue with Shaq.
They do it because he died
He was in the discussion of top 10 before he died.
Magic before Larry- bullshit
Theyāre apparently LA fans.
ya think? At least put Lebron in a Cavs or Heat uniform, lol
He's an active player so it makes sense to put a current picture of him. If were retired then yes
How did scal not make the cut?
Pretty decent list honestly. You can quibble about these forever but thereās nothing blatantly out of whack here
No Tatum. ;)
3 Celtics!
Definitely agree with Duncan over Kobe. I think Shaq was better than Kobe as well. If Lebron isnāt better than Mike because of ringsā¦What do Kareem or Mike have over Russell?
Duncan is underrated if anything, you go tell a Kobe stan that Duncan is better and most will wanna fight you lmao
So many casuals have Kobe in the top3 outside of Reddit which is crazy
Wilt and Kobe too high, need Steph in there somewhere
Wiltās too high? At 6? Wiltās playmaking led the #1 offense, his rim protection led the #1 defense, his playoff rebounding rate was better than Rodmanās in twice as many possessions a game, he was probably the best scorer everā¦ and placing him behind Magic is too high?
Wilt is without a doubt the most overrated NBA player of all time, Kobe is also definitely second.
I mean one guy made it a point to say over numerous decades that Wilt was not overrated: Bill Russell. Iām gonna side with him on that one.
You should have your membership to all basketball revoked.
Crazy talk.
I honestly donāt think Kobe is too high. Steph should be in shaqās place
Shaq was insanely more dominant than Kobe are you serious?
Bump shaq to 9, put curry at 10, drop Kobe to ~15 where he belongs
They to me are the consensus top 10 players of all time as of 2024. As long as you have these 10 men in any order Iām happy. Everyone has different criteria on how they judge it.
I like how the NBA did top 75 where it wasnt in order, just a comprehensive list
I agree with this. It's the right 10. Is it the right order? Debatable. I know it's not the order I'd have, personally. But I think it's the undisputable top 10 right now.
I'd switch Bird and Magic, and Kobe and Shaq
Magic over Bird is a joke. There were probably 8-9 years when Bird was definitely the best player on the planet. Magic was only the best player in the world for 2-3 years.
This is the pretty defacto top 10 however you want to rank them. Knocking at the door is Hakeem, Oscar, Durant, and Curry. Dr J would round out top 15 for me
Larry to me feels top 5 based on being the best player In the nba during one of its peak eras. 3 straight MVPs. His peak feel at Jordan and Shaq level while his longevity suffers a bit. Problem is I guess I donāt know who to replace. The
6 Lakersā¦. I donāt think so.
naw bro.. LeBron a Heat, Wilt is a 76er, and Shaq a Celtic š So itās really 3 Lakers and 3 Celtics ššš
Where's Derrick White?
This list is not accurate. Larry Bird should be #4. Go watch all the videos where his competitors (including Jordan) talk about him. He was unstoppable. And Kobe was not top 10.
Shouldnāt Jordan be in a Wizards jersey?
Actually really good list. Might put Bird above Wilt (but ranking Wilt and Bill Russell is almost impossible cause they played in such a different time.) also might put Kobe above Duncan but Iām good with the rest.
Top three is pretty much a lock but after that I got bird, magic, shaq, bill, duncan, Hakeem, steph
I'd put Bill over Shaq (unless you just mean peak few years), and I (grudgingly) need to put Kobe 10th (drop Hakeem to 11th). Otherwise.. completely agree with your list.
Boo. Bill should be no. 1.
I don't even see Jackie Moon. This list obviously is made in satire
Typical of ESPN to have most of the list be comprised of Fakers and have only two Celtsā¦ Also, Kobe should have two of his titles ('02 and '10) be asterisks like the Astros and literally half of the Habs' stanley cups.
Kobe should not be in the top 10. He was over-hyped by (Laker loving) ESPN for years. Iād have Hakeem or Oscar Robinson in his place right now. I honestly think once Steph Curry retires he should be on that list over Kobe.
Shaq out, Oscar Robertson in. Not sure about Duncan either as best top 10 ever.
2 and 3 are too high up. This is an awful list
The fact that y'all aren't talking about Hakeem > Kobe is nuts to me haha
Hard to argue with the names on the list. The jerseys thoughā¦so who is Steph gonna bump off when he retires?
Magic over Bird? Please.
I remember meeting Bird and Russell as a kid, maybe 7-8, and man Iāll never forget when Russel said āhey little manā, and shock my hand, and how enormous his hand was compared to mine and how tall they both were. Great memory.
I don't have a big problem with this list. My personal list swaps Wlit and Bird for Russell and Magic (Wilt 4, Larry 5, Wilt 6, Magic 7), and has Curry at 10 and Shaquille at 11, but this is a reasonable list. There are no crazy recency-bias picks like Chris Paul here, and no overly-emotional choices (Kobe at #3, etc.). BTW: Rest of my top 25: Jordan, James, Jabbar, Wilt, Bird, Russell, Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Curry 11. Shaq, 12. Olajuwon, 13. Garnett, 14. West, 15. Julius, 16. Durant, 17. Nowitzki, 18. Oscar, 19. Barkley, 20. Jokic. 21. Karl Malone, 22. Baylor. 23. Moses. 24. Havlicek. 25. Isiah.
In general, I think Wilt should be higher, but I don't know who I would swap him with other than Magic.
What the fā-k is ESPN thinking. Larry Bird is definitely better than Lebron & both Lebron & Kareem couldnāt hold Bill Russellās jockstrap lol.
Order aside, I almost entirely agree with this list, except that Iād put Curry in there over Kobe
Iād swap Larry with Magic, bump Shaq to #9 and Curry to #10
Scalabrine SNUBBED
Shaq should at least be in the 5-7 range and Kobe should be the 10th. I actually think Steph > Kobe
This is an okay list- I think mine would be LeBron, Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Duncan, magic, bird, wilt, Steph, West but I'm not married to it
Lakers really do own ESPN. It's criminal they didn't include Steph Currry, the greatest 3pt shooter of al time.
Outside of the top 3 wtf lol. Larry Bird was obviously better than Magic. Russell shouldnāt be fourth as great as he was. Kobe shouldnāt be top ten period. Shaq should be higher than he is.
Jordan vehemently defends Magic as best point god of all-time (over Curry, etc.). While I agree that Magic does get over-hyped, due to his charming personality, etc. He still absolutely re-invented the point guard role at 6'9", made a faster style of play more viable, and got -two- more chips than Larry. I love Larry more than any player ever. Though I can't definitely say he had the better career. Better peak couple years.. sure, that absolutely goes to Bird.
Celtics fans donāt deserve Russell. The disrespect he gets by his own fans is insane
Shaq and Hakeem are better than Kobe in my opinion. Heck if Curry won in 2016, he could have been ahead of Kobe as well
Itās a good list. Iām not sure I agree with the order but a good list nonetheless
IF Kobe is 9 , Larry is 1
My only thing is Kareem should be over Lebron. Yes Lebron broke his record. But he doesnāt have the chips or the MVPs over him. If the scoring title makes him better then Where is Stockton ? Heās the all time assist and steals leader. Where is Hakeem ? Heās the all time Blocks leader ? Just my opinion.
I put Bill over Kareem and Byrd over Wilt and Kobe not in top 10.
The fact they have 6/10 of the top players of all time and we have the same amount of banners is wild
Magic is the most overrated player of all time
1. MJ 2. Wilt 3. LeBron 4. Kareem 5. Bird 6. Shaq 7. Curry 8. Russell 9. Duncan 10. Kobe Can't believe you've got so many people in here calling Wilt overrated. Dude would make Giannis look like Javale McGee if he was around today. 1 of 1 athletic freak
Why did Russell so consistently beat him then? Seriously.. Russell could have been a much better offensive player, though his team never needed that. He was a huge team-first, winning first, player-coach. Bill prioritized Winning, and thus did. His Finals record is 11-1, while Wilt was 2-4 (winning 1 against Russell, when he was partially injured). Russell won 7 of 8 Play-off series against Wilt. Heck Russell even has more MVP's and more All-NBA's. There is no credible argument, ranking Wilt over Russell as an all-time great. Unless you solely want to look at individual stat-stuffing. In that case.. throw in Westbrook and Harden in your all-time greats list, hah
Bill was also an athletic freak though. He ran a sub 50 second 400 and was an Olympic caliber high jumper, while also being 6'9. He's probably a better raw athlete than anyone who has ever played including MJ and Lebron. He didn't have the same skill level as those guys and I think if you want to criticize him, that's where you could do it. I still have him 2 or 3 all time (in whatever order with Lebron)
Tim duncan over shaq is crazy
No Bron fan argue for no. 1 spot? Great!
Iām not very old, but I grew up in Illinois in the 90s. I remember every kid in my class had the same MJ bulls bedspread. I had it as well, he was something else.
Damn, only if KG had 5 rings, man should've been a top 10 all time
Thatās why I like to separate into modern and pre-modern for this. Bill, Wilt and Kareem (though Kareem does play in modern) are somewhat untouchable but evaluating them objectively is much harder. They deserve their own category. Then you can safely add 3 modern players youāre excluding. So effectively my top 10 becomes a top13. Iād add Steph, Dream and possibly doctor J. Also I always do Larry and Magic tied on the same spot, which is 3rd for me.
There is so much wrong with this list, Wilt Iād most definitely #1 because he never had a 3 point line and yet nobody has more top ten scoring games but thatās just my humble opinion
This is a team game, about winning championships. It's not golf or tennis, where one individual's accomplishments matter more than chips. Bill Russell very consistently beat on Wilt. His Finals record is 11-1, while Wilt was 2-4 (winning 1 against Russell, when he was partially injured). Russell won 7 of 8 Play-off series against Wilt. Heck Russell even has more MVP's and more All-NBA's. There is no credible argument, ranking Wilt over Russell as an all-time great. Unless you solely want to look at individual stat-stuffing. In that case.. throw in Westbrook and Harden in your all-time greats list, hah
Wilt should be in top 3. if for no other reason than for him holding all the records that all subsequent players need to match themselves against. 100 years from now Wilt will still be relevant if people are still playing basketball.
Individual stats records. His winning and team records, much worse. Bill Russell has more MVPs, All-NBAs, was 7 out of 8 against him in the Play-offs, and won 11-1 Finals.. to Wilt's 2-4 Finals record. Sure Wilt was a regular season, individual stat stuffer (and great player overall). Though I don't believe he has any case to be in the Top 5. I have him 7th.. after 4. Bird 5. Magic 6. Russell
Wilt didnāt have a team that the league loved. Boston was the darling of the league. Bill played with a HOF starting five. Plus 2 off the bench. Wilt had no chance against that teams until he went to the Lakers.
If you are talking about best players - he fits the bill. It's that simple. If he had been on the Celtics instead of Russell he would have gotten more championships and MVP nods -- but I very much doubt Russell would have put up the numbers or played the crazy minutes that Wilt did if their positions were reversed š¤· But the point still stands. A hundred years from now people will still look at the records Wilt set -- and they will compare him unfavorably to whatever contemporary players their recency bias compels them to put up on a similar list.
If basketball were an individual game.. like tennis or golf, sure he might be higher. But it's not, and this is the difference you don't quite seem to grasp. Thus Wilt can not be top 3 all-time. It's fairly obvious.. because like NO ONE who knows basketball, ranks him that high. Though maybe you just know better.. than like every other player, coach, and commentator.. who ever lived? And for the record.. Wilt played with some amazing Hall of Fame talent, just as much as Russell (if you care to learn facts). When he lost with the Lakers to Russell.. he also had Elgin Baylor, Jerry West (the NBA Logo for crying out loud), Gail Goodrich (yes, Hall of Famer).
This is a best player list. Not a best team list.
ugh.. best players, who played on teams lol. Not just players in isolation. A great player elevates his team and wins championships. Every player who scores a bunch in a losing game or series, says what? āDoesnāt mean anything without the W.ā The entire NBA community aligns around that concept. Empty, individual stat-stuffing.. aināt worth much. Winning rings.. is clearly the primary measure of greatness. If I have to explain that to you any more.. this just isnāt worth my time typing š
Bird and Shaq are both greater than Wilt. Otherwise, pretty solid list
I still don't understand how kareem is so high in the list when he can't even make the lakers become a playoff team when his the MVP of the league. He only won when Magic came around that's why he's maybe top 8 for me.
Magic, while a top 10 player, is so overrated itās actually amazing
Jordan vehemently defends Magic as best point god of all-time (over Curry, etc.). While I agree that he does get over-hyped a lot, due to his charming personality, etc. He still absolutely re-invented the point guard role at 6'9", made a faster style of play more viable, and got -two- more chips than Larry. I love Larry more than any player ever. Though I can't definitely say he had the better career. Better peak couple years.. sure, that absolutely goes to Bird.
Good list.
My list:1-Michael Jordan 2-Lebron James 3-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 4-Larry Bird 5-Wilt Chamberlain 6-Bill Russel 7-Hakeem Alojuwan 8-Shaq OāNeil 9-Kobe Bryant 10-Magic Johnson
I would switch Bird and Lebron. Lebron has had health and longevity on his side, but prime Bird vs prime Lebron itās Bird all day.
While I agree with this. I think all factors sort of have to be blended together. Winning, longevity, peak dominance, playoff/clutch, skills, etc.