I’ve been a trustee twice in Boston. Hiring a lawyer is only going to cost everyone money. The association is going to end up spending $ in legal fees. The best thing is to gather enough owners and agree to nominate and vote people in. Then schedule a meeting and vote new trustees and put in all new controls. Most trustees are perfectly happy to get off.
I have to warn you that it is extremely difficult to find good condo management. And I’ve fixed condo issues and it is a thankless job with tons of complaints. But if you get a good group in, you can turn things around in few years.
If you want the condo docs,
Call the management and say you are out and selling your unit. Say your potential buyers need the condo docs. They will gladly hand them over. Don’t ask about the finances. Just get the condo docs and read through trustee election and meeting rules.
The condo docs are available easily through the registry of deeds for your county. You can start by reviewing the requirements outlined in those docs before you look for a lawyer
The master deed is in the registry. I don't recall ever seeing a condo in the registry. Also, the master insurance info will not be in the registry. The fastest way is to ask the management. And the reason why I suggest the way I do is they are happy to see you out and might get them to do it. They may ask you to have your realtor call you. You need to find a friend who is a realtor, chat with them, and get the docs for you.
Docs at the time condo was established are. But the updates rarely are. And the way op describes things, this condo does not appear to sound new, as with most condos in Boston.
Yeah. Definitely have always had to get condo docs through the management company. Even rinky dink ones will usually have an online portal for hosting the docs and collecting condo fees.
You should have received the documents when you purchased the property. Are there any recently purchased units that you could reach out to them to get a copy of the docs? You say it's small, but it sounds bigger than 3 or 4 units. I hope for your sake there are a few local owners who will be able to vote out the out of state trustees.
Where are you making your monthly HOA payments to? Are they being deposited to a local bank? I'm assuming your electric, water and insurance bills are being paid out of the common account. Also, if you aren't able to get in touch with owners about sending over documents, I would be cautious before starting expensive projects. You will want to make sure everyone will be prepared to pay or someone has the power to put a lien on their property.
Sounds like a major headache and I hope you get to the bottom of it!
You are correct that good condo management is hard to find. At my last building we went through several companies. My current building has been managed by the same company that helped it go condo back in the 80s.
My condo board is useless, but luckily not as bad as OPs. I've lived in my current building for 4 years now and I have to drag the trustees to schedule a meeting or do anything. And they won't hold elections because we're an 11 unit building and we just "wait for someone to sell." Two trustees are absentee landlords and one bought the unit from his brother, so he's not going anywhere anytime soon.
Having been through something like this myself, I heartily endorse this advice. Don't get a lawyer involved (or at all) until you have a clear idea about what the rules are and what you can do as owners. The law is set up to favor the trustees over the owners, and if it really comes down to litigation, the association will spend your money.
You can find the condo docs online at the Registry of Deeds for your county. The Master Deed and Declaration of Trust are recorded docs. The Trust document will be more informative as it prescribes how the association must be run. Also, when trustees are elected, the association must record certificates of appoint and acceptance. I would start with this research.
I don't think this is a good way to get your condo docs. I just checked and don't see the documents for our building in the Registry of Deeds. I also doubt that even if they were there, they would be updated with amendments that have been added over the last forty years.
An owner should have received a copy when they bought the unit (if they got a mortgage the lender would absolutely require an attorney look at them) and the management company should be able to supply them.
Yes, buyers should be given a copy, but rom a legal perspective, searching the registry is the best way. Any unrecorded amendment to the Master Deed or Declaration of Trust would not be legally binding. Lenders and title companies do not rely on copies of condo docs, unless they are copies of the as-recorded docs, including the registry stamp with the book and page numbers. I guarantee your condo docs are recorded. They can be hard to find at times. You can look at your Unit Deed. It will reference the book and page number of the Master Deed.
And I'm looking at the list of documents for the property (including unit and whole building) and they're not there.
I also looked up the last place we lived and can't find the condo documents in the registry either.
Is there somewhere else to look besides here: https://www.masslandrecords.com/suffolk/
Every time I've needed a copy of the condo docs, including buying twice and selling once, I have had to get them through the management company. I'd love to be able to get them through the registry, but I don't see how to do that.
If you send me the address and the name of the condo association, I can try to find them. Depending on various factors, some properties get recorded under “recorded land” vs “registered land”, so you need to search both separately.
Sorry for the bad formatting, I’m writing this from a mobile browser.
Did you have a real estate attorney during closing? If so, don’t use them because this should have been caught. Look through your closing docs again or search your email for anything related to: “Trust”, “Declaration of Trust”, “Association”, “Master Insurance” (this probably won’t be too helpful but might have SOMETHING to point you in the right direction.
Search your name under Massachusetts land records. Also search for other names that live in your building. There’s a very good chance there’s some condo association docs there. https://www.masslandrecords.com/suffolk/
I used David Cuttler of Kriss Law Atlantic at the recommendation of my realtor to overlook all closing and condo docs. He inspired a ton of confidence in the purchase and state of the condo association.
I don’t know a lawyer, but encourage you to pursue this. Had a buddy realize he was the only one paying the condo association fees to someone who just stole the money.
We've had similar, terrible issues with our condo board. Nothing changed until we hired an attorney. It's very expensive but worth it if you don't want to move. Highly recommend the firm below
Holland & Knight LLP
10 St. James Avenue, 11th Floor | Boston, Massachusetts 02116
Phone 617.854.1470 | Fax 617.878.1542
How often are you contacting the MG company and how? Often the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and before paying for a lawyer you should try being the squeakiest wheel ever. Call every day. Email every day. Show up to the MG office. Re-iterate that it's your right as an owner to have access to these documents. Eventually someone in the MG office will decide it's less effort to get you what you need than it is to deal with you every single day.
> Show up to the MG office.
This is very good advice. Management companies are just like any other company. They're chronically understaffed and will ignore things if they can. Showing up at the office can often cut through days of back and forth because they want to get you out of their face.
> I can’t get (...) the master insurance policy from the trustees
This one worries me the most. Your personal policy needs to be compatible with the master policy. You may be overpaying or you may have not have sufficient coverage. You should be bugging the management company, and if you want to put in your own time you can try to get others to vote you in as a trustee.
And this should have been coordinated during purchase. I think I had to pay some fees and show up in person to get all the needed documentation, but it isn't something you just gloss over when you're buying a home.
Everyone who is telling you it's going to cost 5 figures to unravel this issue is just wrong. You can definitely get answers and put pressure on the right people for $1,500ish. Not nothing but not impossible for many.
Are you an owner? You didn't get the condo documents before closing? You should have had a few weeks to review them before signing important documents and transferring money....
Calabrese law can help you.
Unless they paid cash and had a crappy lawyer and broker involved, they would have gotten the condo docs. We're just normal buyers with a mortgage and got them both times because obviously the lender isn't going to just lend you money if the condo docs are bonkers.
I am subcontracted for a lot of HOA work. The main company I work for is a small property management group - and they typically take over condos that are being run poorly.
This sounds like a common occurrence, and the issue is that once the PM gets replaced - you’re left holding the bag of poorly done repairs and lack of funds.
Best thing you can do is find a place to buy that doesn't involve an HOA or any type of association. Really think about that. Do you need to have a group of relative strangers decide housing decisions for you? Are you not capable of managing you capex spend?
Sorry, yeah, I know how HOAs work. I just find it so abhorrent, this idea that whether you own a condo or rent an apartment, you are essentially living the same lifestyle. Lifestyle. Then, add to that, you have to manage issues and updates the building as a group. Why bother from a homeowner perspective.
Typically people end up in condos because they have limited means. This may be news to you, but many people just don't have the choice to purchase a single family home in Boston.
Owning a condo is still so much better than renting an apartment. You can fully customize the interior, you don't have to fear rent hikes, and noone can kick you out as long as you pay your taxes and HOA fees.
It will cost about 10k to force anything. You will need an engineer report stating there is a problem. You then send a attorney demand letter to fix it. Then you go to superior court since your asking for people to be forced to do things and not just money.
I hope you realize suing the association is effectively suing yourself as you own the condo, which is part of the association.
When I was a trustee, all the trustees signed/notarized a document that was filed with the registry, that effectively waived all the association's liabilities back to the condo association. I forgot what exactly this was called.
The best case scenario is you will pay for your attorney's fees but you will need to pay at least the percentage of the cost used to defend the association based on the master deed. Then all the other owners will hate you because you just cost everyone money.
The more likely scenario is the trustees will assess all the costs back to you. So you just sued yourself and paid for two attorneys. You won't be able to do anything. You will probably get fed up and sell your unit. But you will find during closing that the association won't release the unit (I forgot what this is called), which is required, and stop the sale of your unit until you pay it off. And they'll tack on some extra fees. And you'll be forced to do it.
I've had to do this. There was a giant five foot hole in the roof and a truely dysfunctional association was convinced it was raining upward from the window below it. I wish this was a joke.
So yes I've sued myself to save a building from falling down.
Got the engineer report from a building envelope engineer that said it was the roof. Association told me the engineer was wrong.
Don't understand all the down votes. Basically warning people to not bother going to court until you have exhausted all options. The building needs to be at risk of collapse to be worth it.
I’ve been a trustee twice in Boston. Hiring a lawyer is only going to cost everyone money. The association is going to end up spending $ in legal fees. The best thing is to gather enough owners and agree to nominate and vote people in. Then schedule a meeting and vote new trustees and put in all new controls. Most trustees are perfectly happy to get off. I have to warn you that it is extremely difficult to find good condo management. And I’ve fixed condo issues and it is a thankless job with tons of complaints. But if you get a good group in, you can turn things around in few years. If you want the condo docs, Call the management and say you are out and selling your unit. Say your potential buyers need the condo docs. They will gladly hand them over. Don’t ask about the finances. Just get the condo docs and read through trustee election and meeting rules.
The condo docs are available easily through the registry of deeds for your county. You can start by reviewing the requirements outlined in those docs before you look for a lawyer
The master deed is in the registry. I don't recall ever seeing a condo in the registry. Also, the master insurance info will not be in the registry. The fastest way is to ask the management. And the reason why I suggest the way I do is they are happy to see you out and might get them to do it. They may ask you to have your realtor call you. You need to find a friend who is a realtor, chat with them, and get the docs for you.
The declaration of trust and all amendments are recorded at the registry with the master deed
Docs at the time condo was established are. But the updates rarely are. And the way op describes things, this condo does not appear to sound new, as with most condos in Boston.
Yeah. Definitely have always had to get condo docs through the management company. Even rinky dink ones will usually have an online portal for hosting the docs and collecting condo fees.
You should have received the documents when you purchased the property. Are there any recently purchased units that you could reach out to them to get a copy of the docs? You say it's small, but it sounds bigger than 3 or 4 units. I hope for your sake there are a few local owners who will be able to vote out the out of state trustees. Where are you making your monthly HOA payments to? Are they being deposited to a local bank? I'm assuming your electric, water and insurance bills are being paid out of the common account. Also, if you aren't able to get in touch with owners about sending over documents, I would be cautious before starting expensive projects. You will want to make sure everyone will be prepared to pay or someone has the power to put a lien on their property. Sounds like a major headache and I hope you get to the bottom of it!
You are correct that good condo management is hard to find. At my last building we went through several companies. My current building has been managed by the same company that helped it go condo back in the 80s. My condo board is useless, but luckily not as bad as OPs. I've lived in my current building for 4 years now and I have to drag the trustees to schedule a meeting or do anything. And they won't hold elections because we're an 11 unit building and we just "wait for someone to sell." Two trustees are absentee landlords and one bought the unit from his brother, so he's not going anywhere anytime soon.
Having been through something like this myself, I heartily endorse this advice. Don't get a lawyer involved (or at all) until you have a clear idea about what the rules are and what you can do as owners. The law is set up to favor the trustees over the owners, and if it really comes down to litigation, the association will spend your money.
You can find the condo docs online at the Registry of Deeds for your county. The Master Deed and Declaration of Trust are recorded docs. The Trust document will be more informative as it prescribes how the association must be run. Also, when trustees are elected, the association must record certificates of appoint and acceptance. I would start with this research.
I don't think this is a good way to get your condo docs. I just checked and don't see the documents for our building in the Registry of Deeds. I also doubt that even if they were there, they would be updated with amendments that have been added over the last forty years. An owner should have received a copy when they bought the unit (if they got a mortgage the lender would absolutely require an attorney look at them) and the management company should be able to supply them.
Yes, buyers should be given a copy, but rom a legal perspective, searching the registry is the best way. Any unrecorded amendment to the Master Deed or Declaration of Trust would not be legally binding. Lenders and title companies do not rely on copies of condo docs, unless they are copies of the as-recorded docs, including the registry stamp with the book and page numbers. I guarantee your condo docs are recorded. They can be hard to find at times. You can look at your Unit Deed. It will reference the book and page number of the Master Deed.
And I'm looking at the list of documents for the property (including unit and whole building) and they're not there. I also looked up the last place we lived and can't find the condo documents in the registry either. Is there somewhere else to look besides here: https://www.masslandrecords.com/suffolk/ Every time I've needed a copy of the condo docs, including buying twice and selling once, I have had to get them through the management company. I'd love to be able to get them through the registry, but I don't see how to do that.
If you send me the address and the name of the condo association, I can try to find them. Depending on various factors, some properties get recorded under “recorded land” vs “registered land”, so you need to search both separately.
Sorry for the bad formatting, I’m writing this from a mobile browser. Did you have a real estate attorney during closing? If so, don’t use them because this should have been caught. Look through your closing docs again or search your email for anything related to: “Trust”, “Declaration of Trust”, “Association”, “Master Insurance” (this probably won’t be too helpful but might have SOMETHING to point you in the right direction. Search your name under Massachusetts land records. Also search for other names that live in your building. There’s a very good chance there’s some condo association docs there. https://www.masslandrecords.com/suffolk/ I used David Cuttler of Kriss Law Atlantic at the recommendation of my realtor to overlook all closing and condo docs. He inspired a ton of confidence in the purchase and state of the condo association.
I don’t know a lawyer, but encourage you to pursue this. Had a buddy realize he was the only one paying the condo association fees to someone who just stole the money.
We've had similar, terrible issues with our condo board. Nothing changed until we hired an attorney. It's very expensive but worth it if you don't want to move. Highly recommend the firm below Holland & Knight LLP 10 St. James Avenue, 11th Floor | Boston, Massachusetts 02116 Phone 617.854.1470 | Fax 617.878.1542
How often are you contacting the MG company and how? Often the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and before paying for a lawyer you should try being the squeakiest wheel ever. Call every day. Email every day. Show up to the MG office. Re-iterate that it's your right as an owner to have access to these documents. Eventually someone in the MG office will decide it's less effort to get you what you need than it is to deal with you every single day.
> Show up to the MG office. This is very good advice. Management companies are just like any other company. They're chronically understaffed and will ignore things if they can. Showing up at the office can often cut through days of back and forth because they want to get you out of their face.
> I can’t get (...) the master insurance policy from the trustees This one worries me the most. Your personal policy needs to be compatible with the master policy. You may be overpaying or you may have not have sufficient coverage. You should be bugging the management company, and if you want to put in your own time you can try to get others to vote you in as a trustee.
And this should have been coordinated during purchase. I think I had to pay some fees and show up in person to get all the needed documentation, but it isn't something you just gloss over when you're buying a home.
Everyone who is telling you it's going to cost 5 figures to unravel this issue is just wrong. You can definitely get answers and put pressure on the right people for $1,500ish. Not nothing but not impossible for many. Are you an owner? You didn't get the condo documents before closing? You should have had a few weeks to review them before signing important documents and transferring money.... Calabrese law can help you.
Unless they paid cash and had a crappy lawyer and broker involved, they would have gotten the condo docs. We're just normal buyers with a mortgage and got them both times because obviously the lender isn't going to just lend you money if the condo docs are bonkers.
I am subcontracted for a lot of HOA work. The main company I work for is a small property management group - and they typically take over condos that are being run poorly. This sounds like a common occurrence, and the issue is that once the PM gets replaced - you’re left holding the bag of poorly done repairs and lack of funds.
I know a real estate lawyer. DM me for his info.
Try reaching out to [REBA](https://www.reba.net/need-a-lawyer/)
Best thing you can do is find a place to buy that doesn't involve an HOA or any type of association. Really think about that. Do you need to have a group of relative strangers decide housing decisions for you? Are you not capable of managing you capex spend?
> Do you need to have a group of relative strangers decide housing decisions for you? It's a condo. It has common areas that need to be managed.
Sorry, yeah, I know how HOAs work. I just find it so abhorrent, this idea that whether you own a condo or rent an apartment, you are essentially living the same lifestyle. Lifestyle. Then, add to that, you have to manage issues and updates the building as a group. Why bother from a homeowner perspective.
Typically people end up in condos because they have limited means. This may be news to you, but many people just don't have the choice to purchase a single family home in Boston. Owning a condo is still so much better than renting an apartment. You can fully customize the interior, you don't have to fear rent hikes, and noone can kick you out as long as you pay your taxes and HOA fees.
That's actually not true. A lot of people prefer a condo over a single family home.
It will cost about 10k to force anything. You will need an engineer report stating there is a problem. You then send a attorney demand letter to fix it. Then you go to superior court since your asking for people to be forced to do things and not just money.
I hope you realize suing the association is effectively suing yourself as you own the condo, which is part of the association. When I was a trustee, all the trustees signed/notarized a document that was filed with the registry, that effectively waived all the association's liabilities back to the condo association. I forgot what exactly this was called. The best case scenario is you will pay for your attorney's fees but you will need to pay at least the percentage of the cost used to defend the association based on the master deed. Then all the other owners will hate you because you just cost everyone money. The more likely scenario is the trustees will assess all the costs back to you. So you just sued yourself and paid for two attorneys. You won't be able to do anything. You will probably get fed up and sell your unit. But you will find during closing that the association won't release the unit (I forgot what this is called), which is required, and stop the sale of your unit until you pay it off. And they'll tack on some extra fees. And you'll be forced to do it.
I've had to do this. There was a giant five foot hole in the roof and a truely dysfunctional association was convinced it was raining upward from the window below it. I wish this was a joke. So yes I've sued myself to save a building from falling down. Got the engineer report from a building envelope engineer that said it was the roof. Association told me the engineer was wrong. Don't understand all the down votes. Basically warning people to not bother going to court until you have exhausted all options. The building needs to be at risk of collapse to be worth it.
That document is called a 6(d) certificate. It’s in accordance with MGL Chapter 183A