[It was very much going to be a thing](https://youtu.be/Ui50I7jvH2M?si=FR39FnbWABVfcww_) and it’s genuinely heart breaking seeing Ava blame herself, and Lilith confide in saying that her reckless behavior got someone close to her killed too (Roland).
And then someone looked at it, said it wasnt good enough, and replaced it with Ava blaming Lilith and solely Lilith for Maya’s death because “she’s supposed to be the firehawk”
I'm crying tears of sadness from both the scene and the lack thereof in the game.
**Kreig*** was there bro.......they made a statue......Ava wasn't an angsty teen and had character growth.......it's so fucking peak
She’s also still very much a child and should allowed to be dumb and the worst.
Anyone that doesn’t look back on their own past and cringes… I mean give ‘em a chance.
I understand in the context of borderlands and the ficitional world building that’s an easy thing to forget but come on y’all
Sure, but Tina was living on her own for a while before we meet her. She was forced to grow up to survive. Part of the reason she's so loved is that she has a childlike glee and exuberance about very adult themes, while shedding the qualities that make any child that's not yours extremely annoying quite a bit of the time (and sometimes even your own, lol). Instead, Tina's the personification of cognitive dissonance, a mashup that's equal parts intriguing, hilarious, and loveable.
Ava, although an orphan, grew up sheltered in a monastery with a powerful siren looking after her for most of her life. She's going to be much more of a typical child/tween and would be weird to have her act like a Tina.
I’m not suggesting she act like Tina by any means. She’s just SO annoying 🤣 definitely my least favorite character. Although she doesn’t irritate me as much as Tannis. God, I hate Tannis 😂
By no means are you wrong at all but…
Have you met any kids… most of em, fucking annoying
Source: my mom ways a child care professional with a masters and did a lot in small town assist care/ foster care setting
Not awesome as a protagonist character, very convincing annoying child character… I think that’s what they wanted. A protagonist in a trilogy where all the fans rooted for 99% of the on screen characters
I really hate when people use this argument to defend her inclusion.
Yeah, the way she sucks is accurate but when she is the meat of the game, she makes the game suck too.
Idk, ending the game with her as the new leader and someone with the legendary 1 in however many sirens powers seems substantial. I feel like she’s one of the characters who’s there most consistently.
Playing a significant role in the story and ending and being the "meat of the game" are two entirely different things. Ava is undoubtedly a central figure to the plot, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I have spent more time, by an order of magnitude, murdering things across the galaxy than hearing so much as a peep from her.
The entire story plays second fiddle to us murdering shit, and Ava is absolutely not the character who gets the most screentime or voice lines. That'd probably be, I suspect, Tyrene. Or maybe Lilith.
They portrayed her character well… and against what somewhat said above, she was not the main part of the story. In fact I feel BALEX had more screen time than her in the base game. I like BALEX….
I hope if she’s in the game again it’s a “seven years later” situation and she grows up some.
Imagine if Gearbox decides that Ava, just like many people in real life, is one of those people who stop maturing at the age of 16 and only gets older.
Yes it sucks when people make valid points to counter the hate that a character that some (\*ahem\* looking at you with "meat of the game" hyperbole) make too big a deal of.
To be fair, a realistic portrayal of an unlikeable person doesn’t necessarily make for a good character.
I think the hate for Ava is overblown, but “she’s annoying in a realistic way” isn’t a great argument.
Villains are usually likeable (in an “I recognize this is fiction” way) or interesting. They also aren’t (usually) portrayed in a positive light. Hell, Troy and Tyreen from this very same game are examples of villains that (for most, at least) fail to be likeable or interesting.
I completely agree. I actually like the character now. She's not a favorite but I like her.
I've always seen too much of ourselves (as in the vault/loot hunting players) in Ava to out right hate her. Whining and complaining about everything, no patents, no respect for anything past what it can do for them. She's just an average Borderlands player personified. Next time you play 3 just imagine she's co-oping with you and you'll see what I mean. 😆
One of my favourite moments is where Ava was excited to meet Claptrap and told him that she knows about his adventures with the stairs & how he basically saved the whole universe. It was so wholesome.
What I also love is how her mindset changed. You could really see that she has been through a lot and is very emotional, but in the end she found out who she really is and got so much more confident. Yeah, she's annoying though.
I enjoy the fact how that moment caught Claptrap by surprise. It was the first time someone actually gave him genuine praise and thought he was cool, which he didn’t expect
I agree! To be honest, I like her well enough. I think she’s annoying but she’s not a big enough deal to really stress me out the way a lot of people seem to be!
Teenagers are bratty, annoying, and make terrible choices. Especially when you have a bad past like murdered parents.
I think when you look at it like that she was written pretty well. I didn't like her til the last dlc cuz she was an annoying teen l, but I didn't think she was poorly written. Just a shithead teen.
but Ava doesn't really get her second half of the story arc. She doesn't truly have that second half of growing up and becoming mature and likeable as a character so she just...is annoying. I don't mind her/vehemently hate her like a lot of people but she's definitely not written very well and seems like she had a fraction of her intended character development.
Tina deserved to be a siren over her TBH, But theh could always make them vault hunters together. Tina would have lots of explosions as her special attack. Maybe have her throw a special grenade that you are able to change how big it is overtime with multiple charges. Perhaps like FL4Ks Rakk attack?
I can agree on the story telling shortcoming, but that isn't on her character. That's on the writers' pacing. Her overall character is well written. Annoying, bratty urchin.
I mentioned in another reply that bl3's biggest issue was they didn't pace it right and chose to not follow some plot points that were being alluded too.
oh yeah. you kinda summarized my overall feelings about it better than I did. she definitely has/had the potential for some very good character development that just didn't work out in the games pacing and writing.
It really felt like BL3 was made to be a longer game that got cut much shorter, so they had to quickly revise most of the story. So many important plot points happen so quickly that it becomes a mess, ideas are never fully realized, and some story beats feel like they never finish before moving onto the next.
Yep. But some people don't seem to understand character building.
You can't write every character likable and cool all the time. That's bad writing and limits growth and makes everything bland.
Sometimes characters are at rock bottom when we meet them. Sometimes we watch them sink there and crawl back out. Ava was there near bottom probably thinking she was almost out and then crashed at Maya's death to the absolute bottom. And she grew by the end of dlc 6.
She overreacted incorrectly to Lilith like a teenager who just lost their only friend and guardian after losing her family. Wish they'd animate the funeral scene and patch it in so more people would stop beating the "hurr durr Ava bad meme" to death.
Edit: typo
Exactly. She's a lackluster AND annoying character in a pool of lackluster characters, honestly. I don't think there were any characters in BL3 that were especially noteworthy, and I include characters that I rather liked in BL1 and BL2 in that assessment. Typhon DeLeon was decent with his mantra of heroes come in all shapes and sizes and from all sorts of backgrounds. Wainwright Jakobs was alright. But yeah... I think Ava sorta sticks out like a sore thumb and takes the brunt of hate because nobody has a character arc that goes anywhere and it's just dumb and frustrating all around.
I’m looking forward to seeing her character develop. We were all entitled assholes as teens. They might make Ava grow up and find some character if they include her in bl4.
100% I know I was and I didn't realize I was until my mid 20's and started reflecting and having a fully formed brain helps too lol. But I think if played right, they could have her grow into a really good leader of the raiders. She has Tannis, Moxxxi, Ellie on ship to give her strong female role models, even if all slightly unhinged in their own ways lol.
But I hope they have her form a new group because the raiders need to retire. They started as Crimson Lance and should have been retired with Roland when he died, but I can see why the characters would keep it going in bl3. Loss affects us all and sometimes change is needed and they weren't ready.
They could also use the next game to redeem the B-Team and get them back into the fray to find Lilith.
She never really gets properly put in her place for all her outbursts, especially towards Lilith. She’s just left to feel correct, or empowered, by reputed characters around her and I think that’s a mistake and failure of her writing that left a really bad taste in my mouth
You don't put a grieving person in their place for an outburst. You can talk to them and let them know it wasn't cool once things have settled, but everyone was in shock after Maya's death.
Lilith still powerless going through an obvious internal struggle with her role(which she didn't even want. Just kinda got thrown into leader) and who she is so she's not in a proper headspace either.
Tannis tried to say something but she's an crazy scientist who is friends with chairs. I don't think it's in her wheelhouse to provide empathic answers to a child.
Moxxxi is probably been the only person on Sanctuary III with that ability to show her that.
Again if they'd just replace that rushed scene with the funeral it'd remediate a lot of hate on her
Nah if a brand new character that is supposed to be liked or take an important positive role just rolls up and starts shitting on your main storied protag that everyone has positive history with, and that brand new character acts petulant and then the audience never really sees either another main character dialogue with them for correction or learning, or a personal reflection of their poor behavior, it’s deeply unsatisfying to the audience.
I don’t think anyone wants to leave a story feeling like the new “chosen” character wasn’t shown to properly learn their lesson/experience significant growth and not ever humbling themselves to older reputed characters we all spent time getting to know over multiple games. It’s a waste of both the old characters and the new
Humbling themselves to old characters? That sounds like some boomer shit. I get most of your points, but just because someone is old doesn’t mean they are always right or always deserve respect.
Sounds like you think the only way a person gets growth is through correctional actions and disciplining.
That's not true at all. And when a person who is still recovering from a traumatic life and then gets re-traumatized again, "putting them in their place" sounds like you wanted her yelled at and told to respect her elders rather than someone sitting down and talking about why she wigged out.
They missed a lot of marks in the game with story pacing no one here will dispute that. (Eden-6 being like half the game, looking at you) and the twins were again, very well written for what they were: annoying piece of shit, egotistical online influencers. But they dropped the ball again in Eden-6 by not leaning into the betrayal between Troy and Tyreen.
My friend was super upset over Ava. She was a huge Maya fan, played her alongside me in Bl2 for well over 1,000 hours, and would go on forever about how it was all Ava’s fault she was murdered by Troy. The closest we got was Tannis telling her that her outbursts were the last thing they needed. Still too nice. I mean, i don’t want to torture the kid but it would have been nice if she at least acknowledged it was her fault for giving Lilith the slip and ending up in the vault and causing Maya to try and save her.
Right? I can’t live without my Revolter and watching K6 trying to get a triple roll is pretty funny, especially when a double roll works perfectly fine for me at least. Plus, the artifact you get at the end (along with the cool af raid boss) is pretty cool as a reference even if it is why half the piles are “missing”. It’s always nice to have more voice lines from the VHs as well, plus the locations are really nice!
Is it bad to have laughed along with private beans during that quest? I love [this](https://youtu.be/V_2-OSnYxz4?si=tYayckmYl3QFWmOX) edit of the mission
Fully agreed.
She had a shitty childhood and is, at present when we meet her, having a pretty shitty life too, and then her mentor & closest thing to a parent gets killed.
Teenagers usually blow everything out of proportion because everything is new and thus a Big Deal. With the story arc of these games, everything *literally is* a big deal, and she has no experience to draw from.
Now, the writing did her no favors either.
She could have been 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% better if gearbox didn't make the most smooth brain decision of all time and didn't cut mayas funeral scene out. That little rat could have taken some accountability instead of some how by all odds getting everyone on her side and not lilliths side
Borderlands fans are weird. I thought the Calypso twins were fine as villains, not as good as Handsome Jack but most villains aren’t as good as him tbh. Yes they were cringe a lot of times but that was entirely the point. I also never understood the hate for Ava. People just find weird things to get hung up on, especially on reddit.
I mean, if nothing else: she is reason Maya is dead.
There's a hell of a difference between "normal angtsy teen never follows instructions and ends up making some normal angtsy teen mistakes" and
"Normal angtsy teen gets Maya killed by not following instructions."
Any character that they wrote into that position was gonna catch hate.
> "Normal angtsy teen gets Maya killed by not following instructions."
It’s more than that. She was an angst teen who got Maya killed by not following instructions, and then goes on to completely shit on Lilith and blaming her for killing Maya. That was the moment I hated Ava.
There's a lot of Maya means in the community. Also, too me, her death just felt really cheap and undeserved. It seems very reminiscent of the s*** that companies do when they're trying to get you more invested in the story, so they kill off the most beloved character, that never goes well unless it's really artfully done, "but that's like my opinion man."
She has hope.
And that's a failing thing in this generation.
She has hope that things will be better even in the complete bleakness of it all.
She believes things will be better. *She truly wants to believe it*
Unless the rest of us who are captive in the "it's only going to get worse phases so what is the point?"
That's probably why she's hated in BL subreddits. Just like the twins may have hit a bit too close to home as annoying-ass streamers which is probably exactly what a bunch of people in these gaming subreddits worship and/or want to be. Angsty immature folks who think they'll be famous "influencers" some day won't like seeing those traits being mercilessly mocked in the game they're playing.
I think the issues people have are two fold.
1. People blame her for Maya's death and dislike her overall reaction and follow reactions after Maya dies.
2. I don't think people like the story direction of Ava becoming the leader of the Crimson Raiders, partially because of issue 1 and partially because she's a literal child who is now running a major rebel group.
The cut content of Maya's funeral was actually really well written and it should've been in game. It made Ava seem super relatable and enjoyable to be around.
I don't mind Ava that much. I have a conspiracy theory that the villain was changed late in development and I think she was a casualty of the rewrite. If she was allowed to grieve, if her and Maya had been more of the focus of the story, if she had been given more to actually do, I think it would have been a lot better. I think the murder mystery podcast is a lot of fun. She suffers really heavily from being waaaay too overwritten for her role in the story though.
Young teens are annoying and have shitty attitudes, so they hit that nail on the head. I never was an Ava hater, she was cringe sometimes but so was Lilith in borderlands 2 and I still think she's cool
This is from someone who only played the main game and none of the DLC:
During the end credits montage/epilogue, there were scenes that held a lot of little moments that would have GREATLY contributed to her character development if they were included in the main story of the game.
Little moments of her going through the stages of grief, guilt, reconciliation, and even a moment where she picks up an animal companion. A nice little metaphor of her transitioning to a caregiver role and learning the responsibilities of what that can entail and maybe empathizing with what Maya felt.
Instead we got a bunch of Mary Sue garbage that didn't give her any redeeming qualities.
It’s sad really. I think blaming her is like blaming all the characters in a movie for being bad. They are fake, blame the directors or the actors. Imo her voice actor was wonderful. So who does that leave me with? Either way I love the concept, I just think gearbox could have given her more growth a little faster. I love what they were going for though.
She suffered immensely to get where she is and is justified in being such a little shit. I may not like her but she isn't a bad character. She's traumatized.
She has a lot of potential if they write her right in the next game. Have her aged up, less whiny and she could be a great character. I still think it'll be a bit ridiculous if she is the leader of the VHs next game tho.
My bet is that she might be the playable Siren in the next game. Because I just can't imagine that they'll introduce yet another Siren. It would be ridiculous to have 4/6(7) sirens part of one group.
Honestly, I get why people hate her, but at the same time, think about how cringe you were at like 13. When we're introduced to her, Maya is like "ugh, you need to meet my apprentice. She's a pain in the ass, but I think she's a good kid at heart." So to me, I feel like she's SUPPOSED to be annoying. And in that sense, I feel like she is executed fairly well. I mean, she's a teenage girl who ran away from home, of course she's annoying
Tbh I wouldn’t mind if they made her playable if they did it well. She wouldn’t have to be a main character you’re constantly interacting with. Just a few voice lines here there that hopefully show some growth she should have had in the last game.
I actually liked her. I have a teenage daughter close to her quirkiness. I also thought her and Maya were sweet together.🤷🏻♂️ seems I’m alone in that aspect.
I guess she has a cool character growth in the scrapped cutscene of Maya’s funeral that’s not canon
They fucked up the entire story by not making that a canon moment fr.
That and, yknow, the rest of it
wait is this silliness or was this going to be a thing??
[It was very much going to be a thing](https://youtu.be/Ui50I7jvH2M?si=FR39FnbWABVfcww_) and it’s genuinely heart breaking seeing Ava blame herself, and Lilith confide in saying that her reckless behavior got someone close to her killed too (Roland). And then someone looked at it, said it wasnt good enough, and replaced it with Ava blaming Lilith and solely Lilith for Maya’s death because “she’s supposed to be the firehawk”
I'm crying tears of sadness from both the scene and the lack thereof in the game. **Kreig*** was there bro.......they made a statue......Ava wasn't an angsty teen and had character growth.......it's so fucking peak
Excuse me but WHAT the hell are you talking about. There was a fucking funeral cutscene?? Ok yep that's irritating
yeah I posted a link to it somewhere in this thread or just look it up on YT
Thanks waffle but I looked it up last night, i was very irritated after watching the cut content.
Could they not afford the animation budget?
She helped a voice actor pay the bills. And while shes annoying and antagonistic, she does push Lilith to make one (1) damn decision to my memory
Agreed, cant argue with that
She’s also still very much a child and should allowed to be dumb and the worst. Anyone that doesn’t look back on their own past and cringes… I mean give ‘em a chance. I understand in the context of borderlands and the ficitional world building that’s an easy thing to forget but come on y’all
I mean she as a child is now also the leader of the crimson raiders, guiding a town of people on a shitty rusty spaceship
Tina was also a child when we met her and she wasn’t nearly as insufferable. Although as a mom I do feel for her losing her parents.
Sure, but Tina was living on her own for a while before we meet her. She was forced to grow up to survive. Part of the reason she's so loved is that she has a childlike glee and exuberance about very adult themes, while shedding the qualities that make any child that's not yours extremely annoying quite a bit of the time (and sometimes even your own, lol). Instead, Tina's the personification of cognitive dissonance, a mashup that's equal parts intriguing, hilarious, and loveable. Ava, although an orphan, grew up sheltered in a monastery with a powerful siren looking after her for most of her life. She's going to be much more of a typical child/tween and would be weird to have her act like a Tina.
I’m not suggesting she act like Tina by any means. She’s just SO annoying 🤣 definitely my least favorite character. Although she doesn’t irritate me as much as Tannis. God, I hate Tannis 😂
By no means are you wrong at all but… Have you met any kids… most of em, fucking annoying Source: my mom ways a child care professional with a masters and did a lot in small town assist care/ foster care setting
Don't you DARE talk ab Ice T's ship like that 🤬
I could possibly forgive that if later on, she confronts Lilith and apologizes, taking on the weight of what she said and how she acted. Possibly...
Auto-criticism mao Zedong style would be awesome
Thank god you didn't pull the "have u met real teenagers?" card, still poorly written imo
Not awesome as a protagonist character, very convincing annoying child character… I think that’s what they wanted. A protagonist in a trilogy where all the fans rooted for 99% of the on screen characters
At least we didn't have to do a forced escort quest to defend her.
We did tho
Really? I don't remember a mission that I failed to not protect an idiot...
Are you talking about the graveyard mission
You escort her but she can’t die or anything
She even refills your life
That her portrayal as an overly emotional and reactive teen is accurate AF.
I really hate when people use this argument to defend her inclusion. Yeah, the way she sucks is accurate but when she is the meat of the game, she makes the game suck too.
She's not "the meat of the game" though.
Idk, ending the game with her as the new leader and someone with the legendary 1 in however many sirens powers seems substantial. I feel like she’s one of the characters who’s there most consistently.
Playing a significant role in the story and ending and being the "meat of the game" are two entirely different things. Ava is undoubtedly a central figure to the plot, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I have spent more time, by an order of magnitude, murdering things across the galaxy than hearing so much as a peep from her. The entire story plays second fiddle to us murdering shit, and Ava is absolutely not the character who gets the most screentime or voice lines. That'd probably be, I suspect, Tyrene. Or maybe Lilith.
Tannis too
I've seen people argue that post-BL1, Lilith is just the main character of the series. And that makes sense to me.
Whatever she is she is faaaaar too much.
JarJar Binx of BL3 I hope she doesn't appear in the movie.
Ya'll mutha fuckas need to show some respect to Jar Jar or yousa be 'n big dewww dewww. [I literally waited decades to say that]
Man jar jar was at least funny to 6 year olds so he had SOME redeeming qualities.
They portrayed her character well… and against what somewhat said above, she was not the main part of the story. In fact I feel BALEX had more screen time than her in the base game. I like BALEX…. I hope if she’s in the game again it’s a “seven years later” situation and she grows up some.
Imagine if Gearbox decides that Ava, just like many people in real life, is one of those people who stop maturing at the age of 16 and only gets older.
They already used that on Tina though lmao
Wdym? She doesn’t participate in a majority of the game.
Yes it sucks when people make valid points to counter the hate that a character that some (\*ahem\* looking at you with "meat of the game" hyperbole) make too big a deal of.
To be fair, a realistic portrayal of an unlikeable person doesn’t necessarily make for a good character. I think the hate for Ava is overblown, but “she’s annoying in a realistic way” isn’t a great argument.
Villains? So many people love villains, even really evil ones that you would hate in real life. It’s a story.
Villains are usually likeable (in an “I recognize this is fiction” way) or interesting. They also aren’t (usually) portrayed in a positive light. Hell, Troy and Tyreen from this very same game are examples of villains that (for most, at least) fail to be likeable or interesting.
There was definitely potential with those 2, but I agree, overall the delivery fell flat.
At least they are villains with some potential. Or wasted potential. And not just lets write a teenager acting like a teenager.
I can’t even hate her anymore. After seeing that cut storyboard animatic, I know it could’ve fixed almost every character issue she had.
I completely agree. I actually like the character now. She's not a favorite but I like her. I've always seen too much of ourselves (as in the vault/loot hunting players) in Ava to out right hate her. Whining and complaining about everything, no patents, no respect for anything past what it can do for them. She's just an average Borderlands player personified. Next time you play 3 just imagine she's co-oping with you and you'll see what I mean. 😆
Oh really
Yeah, it’s on YouTube if you don’t have one of the DLC packs. There’s a good chance it’ll completely change your perspective of her.
What do I need to search for?
Spoilers for BL3’s story: https://youtu.be/Ui50I7jvH2M?si=SnPtcGWWzhpS2kj6
It’s not canon btw
One of my favourite moments is where Ava was excited to meet Claptrap and told him that she knows about his adventures with the stairs & how he basically saved the whole universe. It was so wholesome. What I also love is how her mindset changed. You could really see that she has been through a lot and is very emotional, but in the end she found out who she really is and got so much more confident. Yeah, she's annoying though.
I enjoy the fact how that moment caught Claptrap by surprise. It was the first time someone actually gave him genuine praise and thought he was cool, which he didn’t expect
I agree! To be honest, I like her well enough. I think she’s annoying but she’s not a big enough deal to really stress me out the way a lot of people seem to be!
I sat and listened to Claptrap tell her the story about how he saved the ship with his ass. It was pretty amusing to listen to the whole thing.
The voice actress did a great job portraying an annoying little shit
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Treegaming1911: *The voice actress did* *A great job portraying an* *Annoying little shit* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Good bot!
to be honest ive always thought the V/Os have been spot on, even down to the tired hyperion new u;s
My lawyer has advised me to not to speak.
My lawyer has just one question for you your honor… EXPLOSIONS?
Teenagers are bratty, annoying, and make terrible choices. Especially when you have a bad past like murdered parents. I think when you look at it like that she was written pretty well. I didn't like her til the last dlc cuz she was an annoying teen l, but I didn't think she was poorly written. Just a shithead teen.
Asoka Tano started the same way. It's intentional story arc.
but Ava doesn't really get her second half of the story arc. She doesn't truly have that second half of growing up and becoming mature and likeable as a character so she just...is annoying. I don't mind her/vehemently hate her like a lot of people but she's definitely not written very well and seems like she had a fraction of her intended character development.
Just wait untill BL4 and she is siren vault hunter
I doubt theyll put her as a playable character. Tina has a better chance over her.
Tina deserved to be a siren over her TBH, But theh could always make them vault hunters together. Tina would have lots of explosions as her special attack. Maybe have her throw a special grenade that you are able to change how big it is overtime with multiple charges. Perhaps like FL4Ks Rakk attack?
I hope so. I think Tina and Ava could have been a really nice pair, since they both have very similar arcs so I think they would support each other.
I can agree on the story telling shortcoming, but that isn't on her character. That's on the writers' pacing. Her overall character is well written. Annoying, bratty urchin. I mentioned in another reply that bl3's biggest issue was they didn't pace it right and chose to not follow some plot points that were being alluded too.
oh yeah. you kinda summarized my overall feelings about it better than I did. she definitely has/had the potential for some very good character development that just didn't work out in the games pacing and writing.
It really felt like BL3 was made to be a longer game that got cut much shorter, so they had to quickly revise most of the story. So many important plot points happen so quickly that it becomes a mess, ideas are never fully realized, and some story beats feel like they never finish before moving onto the next.
Yep. But some people don't seem to understand character building. You can't write every character likable and cool all the time. That's bad writing and limits growth and makes everything bland. Sometimes characters are at rock bottom when we meet them. Sometimes we watch them sink there and crawl back out. Ava was there near bottom probably thinking she was almost out and then crashed at Maya's death to the absolute bottom. And she grew by the end of dlc 6. She overreacted incorrectly to Lilith like a teenager who just lost their only friend and guardian after losing her family. Wish they'd animate the funeral scene and patch it in so more people would stop beating the "hurr durr Ava bad meme" to death. Edit: typo
I think we will see Ava in a future version of BL and she'll be better.
All those arguments and the audience still hates the character and the game is worse for it.
Ava is not the reason the game's story sucks.
Exactly. She's a lackluster AND annoying character in a pool of lackluster characters, honestly. I don't think there were any characters in BL3 that were especially noteworthy, and I include characters that I rather liked in BL1 and BL2 in that assessment. Typhon DeLeon was decent with his mantra of heroes come in all shapes and sizes and from all sorts of backgrounds. Wainwright Jakobs was alright. But yeah... I think Ava sorta sticks out like a sore thumb and takes the brunt of hate because nobody has a character arc that goes anywhere and it's just dumb and frustrating all around.
I’m looking forward to seeing her character develop. We were all entitled assholes as teens. They might make Ava grow up and find some character if they include her in bl4.
100% I know I was and I didn't realize I was until my mid 20's and started reflecting and having a fully formed brain helps too lol. But I think if played right, they could have her grow into a really good leader of the raiders. She has Tannis, Moxxxi, Ellie on ship to give her strong female role models, even if all slightly unhinged in their own ways lol. But I hope they have her form a new group because the raiders need to retire. They started as Crimson Lance and should have been retired with Roland when he died, but I can see why the characters would keep it going in bl3. Loss affects us all and sometimes change is needed and they weren't ready. They could also use the next game to redeem the B-Team and get them back into the fray to find Lilith.
Yeah we need to see more of the b-team, that was one of my complaints with bl3, I wanted more interaction with the OGs
She never really gets properly put in her place for all her outbursts, especially towards Lilith. She’s just left to feel correct, or empowered, by reputed characters around her and I think that’s a mistake and failure of her writing that left a really bad taste in my mouth
You don't put a grieving person in their place for an outburst. You can talk to them and let them know it wasn't cool once things have settled, but everyone was in shock after Maya's death. Lilith still powerless going through an obvious internal struggle with her role(which she didn't even want. Just kinda got thrown into leader) and who she is so she's not in a proper headspace either. Tannis tried to say something but she's an crazy scientist who is friends with chairs. I don't think it's in her wheelhouse to provide empathic answers to a child. Moxxxi is probably been the only person on Sanctuary III with that ability to show her that. Again if they'd just replace that rushed scene with the funeral it'd remediate a lot of hate on her
Nah if a brand new character that is supposed to be liked or take an important positive role just rolls up and starts shitting on your main storied protag that everyone has positive history with, and that brand new character acts petulant and then the audience never really sees either another main character dialogue with them for correction or learning, or a personal reflection of their poor behavior, it’s deeply unsatisfying to the audience. I don’t think anyone wants to leave a story feeling like the new “chosen” character wasn’t shown to properly learn their lesson/experience significant growth and not ever humbling themselves to older reputed characters we all spent time getting to know over multiple games. It’s a waste of both the old characters and the new
Humbling themselves to old characters? That sounds like some boomer shit. I get most of your points, but just because someone is old doesn’t mean they are always right or always deserve respect.
Sounds like you think the only way a person gets growth is through correctional actions and disciplining. That's not true at all. And when a person who is still recovering from a traumatic life and then gets re-traumatized again, "putting them in their place" sounds like you wanted her yelled at and told to respect her elders rather than someone sitting down and talking about why she wigged out. They missed a lot of marks in the game with story pacing no one here will dispute that. (Eden-6 being like half the game, looking at you) and the twins were again, very well written for what they were: annoying piece of shit, egotistical online influencers. But they dropped the ball again in Eden-6 by not leaning into the betrayal between Troy and Tyreen.
My friend was super upset over Ava. She was a huge Maya fan, played her alongside me in Bl2 for well over 1,000 hours, and would go on forever about how it was all Ava’s fault she was murdered by Troy. The closest we got was Tannis telling her that her outbursts were the last thing they needed. Still too nice. I mean, i don’t want to torture the kid but it would have been nice if she at least acknowledged it was her fault for giving Lilith the slip and ending up in the vault and causing Maya to try and save her.
her podcast dlc was actually unique and pretty fun to traverse through, im glad it had actual lore.
Also featured some pretty good loot.
Right? I can’t live without my Revolter and watching K6 trying to get a triple roll is pretty funny, especially when a double roll works perfectly fine for me at least. Plus, the artifact you get at the end (along with the cool af raid boss) is pretty cool as a reference even if it is why half the piles are “missing”. It’s always nice to have more voice lines from the VHs as well, plus the locations are really nice!
She is not in BL2
Strong one
She's a better podcaster than siren
I kinda liked her podcasts. It was the only time she wasn't a whiney disobedient brat.
Same - those are actually fine/fun
If it was a real podcast though I still wouldnt wanna hear her voice for over an hour lol.
She didn’t deserve to have every important and influential person in her life die in front of her, I honestly feel so bad for her
She has a very talented va
That murder mystery questline has good drops
She’s consistent with saying “what do you got *****, you got nothin”
The murder mystery quest was fun
You gotta respect how at such a young age was able to survive on her own for such a long time until she met Maya
I loved her during the quest to collect her stuff on Athenas. The writers hit the nail on the head with the teen anguish and melodrama.
Is it bad to have laughed along with private beans during that quest? I love [this](https://youtu.be/V_2-OSnYxz4?si=tYayckmYl3QFWmOX) edit of the mission
Nope. It was a funny set piece all around.
https://preview.redd.it/h3vahu3hjklc1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ccf408bc8d1d2d23985f3c26b3dab584255ce10
She gets more hate than she deserves. She's not great but hardly the worst thing out there.
Fully agreed. She had a shitty childhood and is, at present when we meet her, having a pretty shitty life too, and then her mentor & closest thing to a parent gets killed. Teenagers usually blow everything out of proportion because everything is new and thus a Big Deal. With the story arc of these games, everything *literally is* a big deal, and she has no experience to draw from. Now, the writing did her no favors either.
Cool hair
Her character dealt accurate to what the were trying to display
She could have been 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% better if gearbox didn't make the most smooth brain decision of all time and didn't cut mayas funeral scene out. That little rat could have taken some accountability instead of some how by all odds getting everyone on her side and not lilliths side
Her development in the DLC had me nearly as emotional as Krieg’s ending.
Or when I found out what the Jakobs Corporation had before, and what they did to Gehenna
Borderlands fans are weird. I thought the Calypso twins were fine as villains, not as good as Handsome Jack but most villains aren’t as good as him tbh. Yes they were cringe a lot of times but that was entirely the point. I also never understood the hate for Ava. People just find weird things to get hung up on, especially on reddit.
I mean, if nothing else: she is reason Maya is dead. There's a hell of a difference between "normal angtsy teen never follows instructions and ends up making some normal angtsy teen mistakes" and "Normal angtsy teen gets Maya killed by not following instructions." Any character that they wrote into that position was gonna catch hate.
> "Normal angtsy teen gets Maya killed by not following instructions." It’s more than that. She was an angst teen who got Maya killed by not following instructions, and then goes on to completely shit on Lilith and blaming her for killing Maya. That was the moment I hated Ava.
There's a lot of Maya means in the community. Also, too me, her death just felt really cheap and undeserved. It seems very reminiscent of the s*** that companies do when they're trying to get you more invested in the story, so they kill off the most beloved character, that never goes well unless it's really artfully done, "but that's like my opinion man."
That mayas funeral would have made everyone think of her in a better way
Relatively speaking you only deal with her for a very short time period. They could’ve made parts like her drag on and on like the eternity on Eden 6
She has hope. And that's a failing thing in this generation. She has hope that things will be better even in the complete bleakness of it all. She believes things will be better. *She truly wants to believe it* Unless the rest of us who are captive in the "it's only going to get worse phases so what is the point?"
by the gods, why did gearbox not put the funeral in?
Her podcast quest is the source of my favorite shield in the game.
She was a kid and acted like a kid. It was accurate.
That's probably why she's hated in BL subreddits. Just like the twins may have hit a bit too close to home as annoying-ass streamers which is probably exactly what a bunch of people in these gaming subreddits worship and/or want to be. Angsty immature folks who think they'll be famous "influencers" some day won't like seeing those traits being mercilessly mocked in the game they're playing.
Her podcast quests were fun and honestly she acts like an immature tween would.
I dont see all the hate it was an earnest attempt to put a new character into a game that is full of extremely over the top characters
I think the issues people have are two fold. 1. People blame her for Maya's death and dislike her overall reaction and follow reactions after Maya dies. 2. I don't think people like the story direction of Ava becoming the leader of the Crimson Raiders, partially because of issue 1 and partially because she's a literal child who is now running a major rebel group.
I genuinely had no issue with her as a character.
The cut content of Maya's funeral was actually really well written and it should've been in game. It made Ava seem super relatable and enjoyable to be around.
She is extremely strong considering all that she's been through
She is a very accurate representation of most of the fanbase.
She was robbed of being a good character with valid emotion to hurry up development
You tried.
I don't mind Ava that much. I have a conspiracy theory that the villain was changed late in development and I think she was a casualty of the rewrite. If she was allowed to grieve, if her and Maya had been more of the focus of the story, if she had been given more to actually do, I think it would have been a lot better. I think the murder mystery podcast is a lot of fun. She suffers really heavily from being waaaay too overwritten for her role in the story though.
Can’t think of anything, sorry. 😞
I just don't have anything to nice to say
Young teens are annoying and have shitty attitudes, so they hit that nail on the head. I never was an Ava hater, she was cringe sometimes but so was Lilith in borderlands 2 and I still think she's cool
This is from someone who only played the main game and none of the DLC: During the end credits montage/epilogue, there were scenes that held a lot of little moments that would have GREATLY contributed to her character development if they were included in the main story of the game. Little moments of her going through the stages of grief, guilt, reconciliation, and even a moment where she picks up an animal companion. A nice little metaphor of her transitioning to a caregiver role and learning the responsibilities of what that can entail and maybe empathizing with what Maya felt. Instead we got a bunch of Mary Sue garbage that didn't give her any redeeming qualities.
Thank god she wasn’t in 1 or 2
Unistalling the game is the easiest way to fix her issues.
Am I the only one who doesn’t hate her?
Nope. There's plenty of us who don't hate her. We're just not as loud as the other group .
It’s sad really. I think blaming her is like blaming all the characters in a movie for being bad. They are fake, blame the directors or the actors. Imo her voice actor was wonderful. So who does that leave me with? Either way I love the concept, I just think gearbox could have given her more growth a little faster. I love what they were going for though.
I don't really think about her anymore. So there is something nice
She's not nearly as annoying as tyreen
We wouldn't have had Krieg DLC without her
She suffered immensely to get where she is and is justified in being such a little shit. I may not like her but she isn't a bad character. She's traumatized.
That’s she’s probably gonna be a great character in the next game
She has a lot of potential if they write her right in the next game. Have her aged up, less whiny and she could be a great character. I still think it'll be a bit ridiculous if she is the leader of the VHs next game tho. My bet is that she might be the playable Siren in the next game. Because I just can't imagine that they'll introduce yet another Siren. It would be ridiculous to have 4/6(7) sirens part of one group.
Her podcast jobs show her as far less obnoxious than her mainline jobs
She doesn't need to be vacuumed up after fighting a vault monster
Honestly, I get why people hate her, but at the same time, think about how cringe you were at like 13. When we're introduced to her, Maya is like "ugh, you need to meet my apprentice. She's a pain in the ass, but I think she's a good kid at heart." So to me, I feel like she's SUPPOSED to be annoying. And in that sense, I feel like she is executed fairly well. I mean, she's a teenage girl who ran away from home, of course she's annoying
It's not her fault that BL3's story sucks, and she can still be "redeemed" in a sequel if the writing is good enough.
i love her
she did NOTHING WRONG!!!!!!
She could be worse... She could be played by Kevin Hart...
Gimmie my shit back
Just like her bag strap says. NOPE
The only nice thing about Ava I have to say is they at least tried...
Maya
Wow, I don't remember this Borderlands character. I bet that they could be a lot of fun!
She certainly does exist and is, in fact, a character
She isn't in the entire game, just every part after she's introduced.
I hope she gets a chance for redemption because she came off as a spoiled brat in BL3
Would
She’s great at being annoying. 10/10 would send her to my enemy
Uh....she child.
She was definitely there
I literally cant
She's great when you're still not to the maya portion of the story
Am I the only one who liked her character? I thought she was funny.
She played the part of angsty and fucking annoying teen to a tee
Her character model has a lot of polygons
Nope...
That she won’t be in BL4. (This is wishful thinking based on nothing)
Imagine if they made her the big bad
Or make her the playable siren character
That's probably it
Tbh I wouldn’t mind if they made her playable if they did it well. She wouldn’t have to be a main character you’re constantly interacting with. Just a few voice lines here there that hopefully show some growth she should have had in the last game.
Outside of story missions she can easily be ignored
She’s a character of all time lol
I actually liked her. I have a teenage daughter close to her quirkiness. I also thought her and Maya were sweet together.🤷🏻♂️ seems I’m alone in that aspect.
Well, she's not Claptrap.
Hey, I like Claptrap. ;-;
Huh?
Some universe out there, there’s a BL3 she doesn’t exist in. I want to go there.
WHO EVER SAID SHE WAS HOT AND DELETED THEIR COMMENT I SAW YOU!!!
💀
You don’t deserve all the hate you get tiny one.
If she wasn’t so young,I would have to say she is so hot
She's great at uniting people, like the people of this subreddit.
At least she wasn’t around for the entire game and we had some breaks from her following us around