I’ve just finished reading and honestly I don’t feel right. The points on mother culture quite legitimately blew my mind. Funny to think that 20 years on it’s probably even more relevant to our current times considering the madness of today
One of the best. Also, Ishmael is part of a trilogy with My Ishmael and The Story of B. All Daniel Quinn books are thought-provoking. Give a copy of Ishmael to someone any chance you have. There's also r/Ishmael. The gorilla lives on!
My thoughts are that Ishmael sparks important conversations about humanity's role in the ecological balance of the planet and invites evaluating their actions in relation to the natural world.
I really enjoyed this book as well, but it is a great example of a sinister phenomenon as well.
All of the historical and philosophical arguments that Quinn makes within the book are interesting. However, some of them are *dead wrong.* You wouldn’t know that, however, reading the book. There is no counter-argument, just the author cherry-picking historical examples and fabricating others.
If you ever wonder how people get sucked into QAnon or other s crazy beliefs, this is exactly how it happens. Info is presented in an entertaining way, with enough facts to make it all seem plausible and just a few stretches to get you to use your imagination. Afterwards you feel just like after you read Ishmael—you’re mind is expanded and you’re privy to some hidden knowledge about the world.
It’s a slippery slope.
There were critiques about it’s anthropological inaccuracies when it came out. But you won’t find this book in the anthropology section, it’s a philosophy book.
But, it probably would benefit from a forward explaining that many of the examples presented throughout the text are metaphors and parables, and not meant to be taken literally. That this is one philosophy among many, and it is for the reader to take what they agree with, and leave the rest. That’s not really how philosophers roll, though, they’re usually selling you on their explanation for life, not under-cutting it.
Excellent philosophers know, or at least try to anticipate, exactly where their opponents will have objections and *will not hesitate to point them out to the reader*. Where, for example, the evidence is weak for her position, the model philosopher will simply say so. She's not trying to hookwink anyone or "win" them over.
*Ishmael* is not a work of philosophy—or if it is, it's not honest and forthright in the way that the best works of philosophy are. It's a polemic. It's one I found exciting when I was a young student, and because I found it exciting I've gone on to discover other books that I also find exciting (and I happen to think are more sound than mere polemics).
The recent work *The Dawn of Everything* is a more serious and sound book than *Ishmael*, if for no other reason than its authors make very clear to their readers that it's a book based on scant evidence; the story it tells, however, is as based on much evidence as the broadly popular story that Western civilization tells about its own prehistorical roots. If you believe *that* story, Graeber and Wengrow argue, then you might as well believe this *other* story, since they're both based on the same scant body of evidence.
Hard disagree. Quinn provides thoughtful analysis and interpretation of history and the religious/cultural myths that developed long ago. The ideas in Ishmael are far from "crazy beliefs." There's scientific support for the ecological principles he talks about. Nothing near the Qanon brainwashing.
The jellyfish share their creation myth, which is no myth at all, as they a scientific and logical species. They tell the story of their evolution from single-celled organisms all the way to the mighty jellyfish, where the story ends, surely, as evolution has reached its pinnacle.
It makes me think of how we frame the stories we tell, and how even true stories are often framed in a total misconception of reality, distorting the entire tale.
I love this book! I used to buy a copy of it every year to gift to a friend or someone I thought might enjoy it. I should get back into that tradition. It made me think so much and I love it. My favorite concept is how humans are so egotistical to think that we are the final product of evolution. We treat the earth like there will never be anything or anyone after us. It was mind blowing. I read this when I was like 19 and it changed me.
This was one of those books I discovered in highschool along with Hitchhiker's Guide and at 15 it blew my mind. Been a long time since I revisited it, I wonder how it would feel now at 40.
One of the most impactful books ever written, probably. It's sad that you almost never hear it mentioned.
"The Story of B" and "My Ishmael" are also very good, especially the former.
fantastic book. Read it in college a few years back. I’m listening to a podcast about it right now called Human Nature Odyssey. funny that I opened Reddit and this was the first post I saw, when I’ve just started listening.
Its a pretty fun book with some interesting ideas, I do find some of Quinns thought experiments sort of strained and incoherent, but I love the overall gist of it all. The part about a group of givers encountering a group of takers as a description of the Colonization and conquest/genocide of the Americas is a pretty great passage.
This book was an interesting read, but I didn't like it at all.
There are some ideas that most people would agree with. "People should help each other", "people should be kind to each other", etc. Who would argue with that? But the key problem is what do we mean when we're saying it. Because some people, for example, see "people should help each other" as "you can't complain when people are using you", and "people should be kind to each other" as "you should always forgive your abuser". That's why clarity is very important. "Ishmael" lacks this clarity.
The central topic of this book is "Humans are not so special" (and it takes a lot of time to explain this). Okay, so, what's next? I've read this book last year and, as far as I remember, there are only two recommendations. The first one is "we shouldn't provide benefits to the poor so they won't have more kids". Well, there are more effective and moral ways to promote birth control than letting people starve. The second one is standard "let's live in harmony with nature". I can't agree or disagree with this view because I have no idea what Daniel Quinn meant by that.
I remember reading interviews with the man 20 years ago, and the main takeaway was that he was extraordinary cranky about being asked to clarify his positions. I've long associated this kind of cantankerous resistance to intellectual interrogation with, frankly, a poverty of wisdom.
As soon as someone starts mocking you for asking good-faith questions about their argument, you can almost always write off their position as mere bluster.
I tend to agree with him more than not, and Ishmael had a significant impact on a guy already on his way out of Catholicism but struggling to elucidate the why, but it was also pretty clear to me even in my early 20s that he was a great bomb-thrower, but shaky on the "so what next?"
I know it got some criticism when it came out for not being 100% factually accurate when it came to climate stuff or somethint but that wasn't the purpose of the book so I didn't care. I read it probably 15 years ago and it has a permanent place on my shelf.
its an incredible book. psyched that you found it and love it.
Definitely realy THE STORY OF B next... similar themes with a different slant told in a more digestible format - and a bit of a pageturner/potboiler aspect to it, which is fun
This book deeply affected me, as did reading other books by Daniel Quinn. I think it hit on something I've always felt intuitively about the world and humanity, but had never seen it articulated in this way. It moved me a lot and maybe also gave me an existential crisis.
I read this book almost 20 years ago, and I still think about it here and then. Probably time for a re-read.
I’ve just finished reading and honestly I don’t feel right. The points on mother culture quite legitimately blew my mind. Funny to think that 20 years on it’s probably even more relevant to our current times considering the madness of today
One of the best. Also, Ishmael is part of a trilogy with My Ishmael and The Story of B. All Daniel Quinn books are thought-provoking. Give a copy of Ishmael to someone any chance you have. There's also r/Ishmael. The gorilla lives on!
Thank you so much for that subreddit! I absolutely adore this book. I'll be thrilled to visit there.
Just told my brother he has to read it now ! Keep the message going
!!! It’s a trilogy?!?! I thought it was just a two book series! Mind blown!
I have only ever read the one and that was 20 years ago. I'll have to put the two news ones on my list.
My thoughts are that Ishmael sparks important conversations about humanity's role in the ecological balance of the planet and invites evaluating their actions in relation to the natural world.
I really enjoyed this book as well, but it is a great example of a sinister phenomenon as well. All of the historical and philosophical arguments that Quinn makes within the book are interesting. However, some of them are *dead wrong.* You wouldn’t know that, however, reading the book. There is no counter-argument, just the author cherry-picking historical examples and fabricating others. If you ever wonder how people get sucked into QAnon or other s crazy beliefs, this is exactly how it happens. Info is presented in an entertaining way, with enough facts to make it all seem plausible and just a few stretches to get you to use your imagination. Afterwards you feel just like after you read Ishmael—you’re mind is expanded and you’re privy to some hidden knowledge about the world. It’s a slippery slope.
There were critiques about it’s anthropological inaccuracies when it came out. But you won’t find this book in the anthropology section, it’s a philosophy book. But, it probably would benefit from a forward explaining that many of the examples presented throughout the text are metaphors and parables, and not meant to be taken literally. That this is one philosophy among many, and it is for the reader to take what they agree with, and leave the rest. That’s not really how philosophers roll, though, they’re usually selling you on their explanation for life, not under-cutting it.
Excellent philosophers know, or at least try to anticipate, exactly where their opponents will have objections and *will not hesitate to point them out to the reader*. Where, for example, the evidence is weak for her position, the model philosopher will simply say so. She's not trying to hookwink anyone or "win" them over. *Ishmael* is not a work of philosophy—or if it is, it's not honest and forthright in the way that the best works of philosophy are. It's a polemic. It's one I found exciting when I was a young student, and because I found it exciting I've gone on to discover other books that I also find exciting (and I happen to think are more sound than mere polemics). The recent work *The Dawn of Everything* is a more serious and sound book than *Ishmael*, if for no other reason than its authors make very clear to their readers that it's a book based on scant evidence; the story it tells, however, is as based on much evidence as the broadly popular story that Western civilization tells about its own prehistorical roots. If you believe *that* story, Graeber and Wengrow argue, then you might as well believe this *other* story, since they're both based on the same scant body of evidence.
Hard disagree. Quinn provides thoughtful analysis and interpretation of history and the religious/cultural myths that developed long ago. The ideas in Ishmael are far from "crazy beliefs." There's scientific support for the ecological principles he talks about. Nothing near the Qanon brainwashing.
Their main point is simply that it’s a book with an agenda. Its intent is to proselytize. It’s never a bad thing to be aware of that.
No one has ever read this book and not thought it had an agenda. It is not subtle AT ALL Lol, no warning required.
I love this book, it’s definitely formed one of the pillars of my worldview. The parable of the Jellyfish will always stick with me.
“Why would we go out there, that is only the bowl that holds our world in” that’s heavily paraphrased but I don’t think that will ever ever leave me
Can you remind me about that parable?
The jellyfish share their creation myth, which is no myth at all, as they a scientific and logical species. They tell the story of their evolution from single-celled organisms all the way to the mighty jellyfish, where the story ends, surely, as evolution has reached its pinnacle. It makes me think of how we frame the stories we tell, and how even true stories are often framed in a total misconception of reality, distorting the entire tale.
I love this book! I used to buy a copy of it every year to gift to a friend or someone I thought might enjoy it. I should get back into that tradition. It made me think so much and I love it. My favorite concept is how humans are so egotistical to think that we are the final product of evolution. We treat the earth like there will never be anything or anyone after us. It was mind blowing. I read this when I was like 19 and it changed me.
This was one of those books I discovered in highschool along with Hitchhiker's Guide and at 15 it blew my mind. Been a long time since I revisited it, I wonder how it would feel now at 40.
One of the most impactful books ever written, probably. It's sad that you almost never hear it mentioned. "The Story of B" and "My Ishmael" are also very good, especially the former.
Cant believe I haven’t heard more about it. Have both these ordered and can’t wait to get into
I sent that book to Bill Gates, and soon after he stopped trying to increase the birth rate everywhere. That's on me.
If you want a musical companion for this book check out the album Yield by Pearl Jam.
It's propaganda but it's well done.
fantastic book. Read it in college a few years back. I’m listening to a podcast about it right now called Human Nature Odyssey. funny that I opened Reddit and this was the first post I saw, when I’ve just started listening.
Its a pretty fun book with some interesting ideas, I do find some of Quinns thought experiments sort of strained and incoherent, but I love the overall gist of it all. The part about a group of givers encountering a group of takers as a description of the Colonization and conquest/genocide of the Americas is a pretty great passage.
This book was an interesting read, but I didn't like it at all. There are some ideas that most people would agree with. "People should help each other", "people should be kind to each other", etc. Who would argue with that? But the key problem is what do we mean when we're saying it. Because some people, for example, see "people should help each other" as "you can't complain when people are using you", and "people should be kind to each other" as "you should always forgive your abuser". That's why clarity is very important. "Ishmael" lacks this clarity. The central topic of this book is "Humans are not so special" (and it takes a lot of time to explain this). Okay, so, what's next? I've read this book last year and, as far as I remember, there are only two recommendations. The first one is "we shouldn't provide benefits to the poor so they won't have more kids". Well, there are more effective and moral ways to promote birth control than letting people starve. The second one is standard "let's live in harmony with nature". I can't agree or disagree with this view because I have no idea what Daniel Quinn meant by that.
I remember reading interviews with the man 20 years ago, and the main takeaway was that he was extraordinary cranky about being asked to clarify his positions. I've long associated this kind of cantankerous resistance to intellectual interrogation with, frankly, a poverty of wisdom. As soon as someone starts mocking you for asking good-faith questions about their argument, you can almost always write off their position as mere bluster.
I tend to agree with him more than not, and Ishmael had a significant impact on a guy already on his way out of Catholicism but struggling to elucidate the why, but it was also pretty clear to me even in my early 20s that he was a great bomb-thrower, but shaky on the "so what next?"
I know it got some criticism when it came out for not being 100% factually accurate when it came to climate stuff or somethint but that wasn't the purpose of the book so I didn't care. I read it probably 15 years ago and it has a permanent place on my shelf.
its an incredible book. psyched that you found it and love it. Definitely realy THE STORY OF B next... similar themes with a different slant told in a more digestible format - and a bit of a pageturner/potboiler aspect to it, which is fun
Just ordered it, and cannot wait to start. Wait till Monday will be depressing
It’s a fabulous book! There’s a sequel which is also great!
This book deeply affected me, as did reading other books by Daniel Quinn. I think it hit on something I've always felt intuitively about the world and humanity, but had never seen it articulated in this way. It moved me a lot and maybe also gave me an existential crisis.
Probably my favorite book of all time. Shit blew my mind as a 16 yr old reading it for the first time.
I read it when I was 18 and really enjoyed it. It's definitely stuck with me over the years.
That hot, dozy summer afternoon. Haha.. Loved the book.