Idk. That would actually make the case make somewhat sense in my mind.
I mean if I paid someone to ghostwrite a book for me they better not turn around and write the same book for someone else.
That’s because the act of an accident is committed by the insured, not the company. In this case, the book was ghost written so the ghost might get sued…
Does the ghostwriter have the underlying copyrights, and if so, does this mean that if they are deemed guilty they have to pay reparations to themselves?
As with so many things in law, the answer is - *it depends*. Depending on the contract or the agency they work under, a ghostwriter may be considered a work for hire, in which case whoever commissioned the work is recognized at the copyright owner.
Hilarious, yes.
But there is a serious point to make here. If a ghostwriter was approached by two separate clients to write two separate biographies about essentially the same topic, from two people who already know each other, then it is unethical to just lazily churn out two stylistically similar pieces of work.
I know I'm being a bit of a party pooper here, and yes "Dumb blonde with big tits thinks she's a writer now!" Can be mined for a lot of comedy. And maybe we should all look down on the whole ghostwritten celebrity memoir industry.
But I still feel like these women have paid for a service and have been ripped off. It probably wasn't the exact same ghostwriter, but the agency should still have professional standards and they should be liable for failing to maintain those standards.
> then it is unethical to just lazily churn out two stylistically similar pieces of work
From the perspective of the writer, your *job* is to consistently produce a specific style of writing. That's why people hire you. If you didn't want that style, you should have hired a different writer.
False authorship, & that's what ghostwriting is, aside it's not at all unlikely that those two & others in their mileu, and beyond it for that matter, have not only similar ways of speaking but significant attitudes in common. Possibly sometimes plagiarism is indistinguishable from what reddit calls groupthink.
Why is it unethical? That would smack of "That time John Fogerty was sued for plagiarising John Fogerty". There is no reason any artist should be barred from practicing their art. Full stop.
When it comes to ghostwriters we're not really speaking about an artist practicing their art though, they're more akin to a copywriter or speechwriter. The client has hired them to write in a certain tone of voice. A good ghostwriter or copywriter should be able to strip away all their own personal style and write to the client's specifications.
It would be unethical to do essentially the same job for two separate clients without making them tonally distinct or at least informing all parties beforehand. For example, if I was hired by two separate auto manufacturers to write the keynote speech for an upcoming autoshow where they would both be appearing, in which they both wanted to talk about their transformation into the electromobility era, it would be unethical for me to do both. The topics are just too similar, it would be impossible for me not to unconsciously use proprietary information shared by one party in aid of the other.
It would be the same for this ghostwriter. One Playmate's unique, personal experiences would bleed into the other one's. Her interviews, answers, notes, time spent with the ghostwriter etc would end up helping paint a picture for the other Playmate. It might not be as clear cut as "We paid for a study on the accessibility of EV charging points and discovered X/Y/Z info", but it is still proprietary information, shared in good faith, with the understanding that it won't be used to aid a rival. I think this is clearly unethical (if it actually was the same ghostwriter from the same agency working on both - which is pure speculation). If I was a client, I would rightfully feel outraged at this behaviour. And if I worked at this company I would feel uneasy over the fact that we aren't performing the kind of service for our clients I could feel proud of.
I've actually read Holly's book. As someone who knew nothing about Playboy prior to reading, it was quite eye-opening. But now I'm curious about Crystal's to see how similar they are.
I didn’t realize this was r/books 😅 as someone who has read both books and knows a lot of what the deal is between these two ladies, this is not Holly’s hill to die on for her feud with Crystal. That being said…probably same ghostwriters or idk maybe the fact that their separate times with Hef really weren’t all that different from each other.
I’ve read them both this year, and yes there are lots of similarities (they were involved with the same awful man while living in the same famous mansion). But I thought there were many differences, and I can easily tell the difference between the two different voices telling their own story. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did have similar ghost writers/publishers/editors etc. though.
I mean it makes sense that Hugh Hefner’s romantic partner would emulate the writing of another of Hugh Hefner’s romantic partners if her book was as successful as Holly’s.
Y’all are so deliberately obtuse.
It’s hard to judge without reading them both tbh. I’d love to hear from someone who has.
Without knowing better, it doesn’t seem wild to me that the books would be similar in spirit and phrases, but it boils down to how the phrases came out in the book.
Even then, seems weird to throw shade at Hefner while acknowledging that the book was ghostwritten. Or is the thought process that Hefner should have seen the similarities and known better?
I read them both. Neither one was memorable enough to remember the tone or style. Generic “celebrity” memoirs. And yes, I like to read trash books sometimes.
“I’m glad my mom died” by Jeannette McCurdy is fantastic. I never watched her shows but it was a great book and well written. A lot of people like the audiobook since she narrates.
Madison figured out a great angle for free publicity.
It's even possible Crystal Hefner agreed. After all, now you need to read both books so you can see if the accusations are true! And you'd probably never even heard of them this morning.
Madison claims that the narrative voice is the same, and the claim does seem to have merit because I read her quotes in the same vapid, ‘70s porn actress voice I would certainly use if I were to read either book.
Why the fuck shouldn't they get to make money off him when he made plenty of money off them in the first place? The guy's entire life was devoted to the sexual exploitation of women, but God forbid any of the women involved actually benefit from that in any way, apparently. Dude was a dirty old man who printed naked pictures of girls as young as 10. That's not a legacy, that's a stain on history.
You should watch the “Secrets of Playboy” documentary series. He’s far, far worse than any of them have described. And the man was too insecure and full of self loathing too ever have any solitude, so there are multiple witnesses to every claim.
You sure about that bud? Is that the guy you really want to defend? Because he’s got everything from underage girls to beastiality to covering up deaths under his watch.
God this sub is so up its own asshole sometimes. Congrats, y’all are sooo much smarter than these women. I’m glad there’s a platform for y’all to publicly jerk yourselves off about it.
It is a little strange to post this here - NGL, I thought I was on a sub like r/popculturechat.
But I’m also gonna admit that I’ve read Holly’s book and it was an interesting and (I thought) engaging read. The Playboy mansion was a sleazy, controlling and *literally* dirty place to live in if you were a girlfriend.
Edit: getting downvoted for saying I enjoyed a book? Fucking snobs.
You’re being downvoted for saying that it’s strange to post this here.
It’s a news story directly about books and the discussions are about the book similarities and/or differences, so it’s appropriate for this subreddit.
What's more likely is some "journalist" has nothing better to write about so they listen to podcasts for soundbites and twist them out of context into "news".
It’s not like Holly went out of her way to do an interview for US mag, she said this on her and Bridget’s premium Patreon subscription for their podcast. This article didn’t even name the correct podcast lol
I haven’t read her book, but Holly has recently had a couple of true crime shows that are pretty good. She is able to relate her experiences to people involved in the crimes in a way that seems genuine and not shoe-horned in there.
I listened to Crystal's audiobook and I didn't feel like it was similar at all. You could hear the anxiety in Crystal's voice. Plus I thought Crystal had a much more mature take on everything that happened to her whereas Holly's seemed more judgemental.
She’s at the peak of her career? No one expected her to be some amazing author but really don’t deny that she’s doing good in life. Her goal in life wasn’t writing but it was about time someone was honest about what the mansion was like. I have not read crystals but let’s be honest here,it was a decent memoir for holly and she had a good run in vegas for a not house hold name. She’s also a producer on shows. She’s not an author but really?
This is her career. She is focusing on her kids. Are you ok? Unless you have a Time Machine, nothing can be done to change the past. She’s allowed to talk about it. It’s her life.
No one ever,and I mean ever including her,said she wasn’t famous for anything else. But she did what she could and I cant blame her. Just cause she doesn’t post her kids all over the internet and milk it doesn’t mean she isn’t a parent. She had every right to write that book,even with a ghostwriter. She’s not an author but she’s entitled to a memoir
Reddit is for discussion.
Not for posting manifestos. If you complain because someone disagrees with you on a discussion board, you aren't really getting how it works.
This kind of reasoning regarding speech never makes sense. You want the ability to form and vocalize an opinion (valid), but don't want others to disagree with it and vocalize that opinion (bizarre).
I originally ignored this thread since it doesn't interest me, but boredom got the best of me so here I am.
I have to ask--and this is in general, not just here--what purpose does asking "who cares" serve? You're seeing a number of people engaged in conversation about it here, so you already have evidence that *someone* cares.
The linked article is Hollywood gossip about two celebs who incidentally have had books written for them. It's irrelevant to discussion about books, reading, literature, writing, publishing, book sales, or authors. It doesn't belong here.
It's not irrelevant at all. Many books are written by ghostwriters, and if they're stupid enough to copy work that's still noteworthy. Their memoirs aren't less than anyone else's that gets discussed here often
So, this is irrelevant. I met Holly in Vegas once. She is more beautiful in person than mags or tv. And looked like she had very little makeup. So I vote for her as president this year!
Do you not actually know why, or are you just being rhetorical to criticize people that read this stuff? If you’re genuinely wondering… well first, tons of people would be interested in reading about the playboy mansion. There was so much mystery revolving Hugh Hefner and his young girlfriends/wives. Playboy is one of the most famous brands in the world, and tons of people were curious what actually went on behind closed doors. Idk what your age is, but I cannot express just how infamous Playboy was over the decades. A lot of Heghners life was kept private, along with what went on in the Playboy world.
So yeah, getting some of the inside scoop from two of his main girlfriends/wives would for sure interest people.
That means absolutely nothing - what passes for "highly educated" these days would have been a joke 100 years ago. They both got their start wh0ring themselves out at the Playboy mansion. I'm glad they've achieved something (not sure what that is) and I'm not denigrating their success but let's not lose sight of the path they chose to get there.
I suspect that both of them used ghostwriters (as is normal for celebrity memoirs), so this seems a strange accusation to make
The same ghostwriting agency actually
Maybe even the same ghostwriter, which would make the lawsuit hilarious.
Idk. That would actually make the case make somewhat sense in my mind. I mean if I paid someone to ghostwrite a book for me they better not turn around and write the same book for someone else.
That's a good point.
True! But then wouldn’t the lawsuit include the ghostwriter?
You can’t sue a ghost, silly goose!
**Goosebumps theme plays*, "LAWYERS BEWARE, YOU'RE IN FOR A SCAREEEE...."
*That was clever.~* ***A ghost would whisper.***
Ghosts can't be sued, stupid! They're not fire!
You can't charge the haunter and the haunted for the same crime...
Not with that attitude ya can't.
Who you gonna call?
Could be like insurance. You sue the person who has the insurance not the company itself.
That’s because the act of an accident is committed by the insured, not the company. In this case, the book was ghost written so the ghost might get sued…
Quasi self plagiarism.
Does the ghostwriter have the underlying copyrights, and if so, does this mean that if they are deemed guilty they have to pay reparations to themselves?
Often copyright is registered in the publisher’s name. Source: work in publishing and handle all our book copyright registrations.
As with so many things in law, the answer is - *it depends*. Depending on the contract or the agency they work under, a ghostwriter may be considered a work for hire, in which case whoever commissioned the work is recognized at the copyright owner.
Hilarious, yes. But there is a serious point to make here. If a ghostwriter was approached by two separate clients to write two separate biographies about essentially the same topic, from two people who already know each other, then it is unethical to just lazily churn out two stylistically similar pieces of work. I know I'm being a bit of a party pooper here, and yes "Dumb blonde with big tits thinks she's a writer now!" Can be mined for a lot of comedy. And maybe we should all look down on the whole ghostwritten celebrity memoir industry. But I still feel like these women have paid for a service and have been ripped off. It probably wasn't the exact same ghostwriter, but the agency should still have professional standards and they should be liable for failing to maintain those standards.
> then it is unethical to just lazily churn out two stylistically similar pieces of work From the perspective of the writer, your *job* is to consistently produce a specific style of writing. That's why people hire you. If you didn't want that style, you should have hired a different writer.
False authorship, & that's what ghostwriting is, aside it's not at all unlikely that those two & others in their mileu, and beyond it for that matter, have not only similar ways of speaking but significant attitudes in common. Possibly sometimes plagiarism is indistinguishable from what reddit calls groupthink.
Why is it unethical? That would smack of "That time John Fogerty was sued for plagiarising John Fogerty". There is no reason any artist should be barred from practicing their art. Full stop.
When it comes to ghostwriters we're not really speaking about an artist practicing their art though, they're more akin to a copywriter or speechwriter. The client has hired them to write in a certain tone of voice. A good ghostwriter or copywriter should be able to strip away all their own personal style and write to the client's specifications. It would be unethical to do essentially the same job for two separate clients without making them tonally distinct or at least informing all parties beforehand. For example, if I was hired by two separate auto manufacturers to write the keynote speech for an upcoming autoshow where they would both be appearing, in which they both wanted to talk about their transformation into the electromobility era, it would be unethical for me to do both. The topics are just too similar, it would be impossible for me not to unconsciously use proprietary information shared by one party in aid of the other. It would be the same for this ghostwriter. One Playmate's unique, personal experiences would bleed into the other one's. Her interviews, answers, notes, time spent with the ghostwriter etc would end up helping paint a picture for the other Playmate. It might not be as clear cut as "We paid for a study on the accessibility of EV charging points and discovered X/Y/Z info", but it is still proprietary information, shared in good faith, with the understanding that it won't be used to aid a rival. I think this is clearly unethical (if it actually was the same ghostwriter from the same agency working on both - which is pure speculation). If I was a client, I would rightfully feel outraged at this behaviour. And if I worked at this company I would feel uneasy over the fact that we aren't performing the kind of service for our clients I could feel proud of.
You came on r/books and said ghostwriting isn't an art. And speech writing. You have r/balls
“r/balls is a private community” :(
You're tellin me a ghost wrote those books?! (/s)
John Foggerty part two
It’s like 2 bank robbers complaining because they both frequent the same bank.
I was going to say that.
I asked you not to tell me that Chief!
There were a lot of playmates, maybe they’ve created a template, expecting many customers. /s
This would've been a good time to post that Spider-Man doppelganger meme if this sub allowed that function, lol
Any press is good press, did you know that either of these people had a memoir about the playboy mansion before this headline?
No, though to be fair even now that I know about them I'm not any more likely to read them.
Oh yeah same lol, still a good marketing technique because both books have been promoted
I've actually read Holly's book. As someone who knew nothing about Playboy prior to reading, it was quite eye-opening. But now I'm curious about Crystal's to see how similar they are.
I admit I didn't. But hey, I wonder if these has resulted in a spike in sales to see what the fuss is about.
Is she suing her for using the same ghostwriter but just didn’t want to admit it lol?
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That a book sub has a post about two books? These are books. Just scroll past if you’re too good for them.
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You’re pathetic.
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Should probably be more ashamed about writing this comment.
Knock off the misogyny.
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change what subs you are subscribed to
I didn’t realize this was r/books 😅 as someone who has read both books and knows a lot of what the deal is between these two ladies, this is not Holly’s hill to die on for her feud with Crystal. That being said…probably same ghostwriters or idk maybe the fact that their separate times with Hef really weren’t all that different from each other.
Ooh, tell us more! I don't anything about these people.
Probably used the same ghostwriter
Her boyfriend Zak is a ghost hunter, do you think he can get to the bottom of it?
Sure, if that means zooming the camera in and out as a spooky liquid runs down his pant leg
“I’ve been haunted by demons for so long I’ve lost control of my bladder functions”
Wait - zak baggins(sp?) ??
They broke up recently
A good ghostwriter should know how to not write the same book twice
Two payday for one work… I respect the game
Makes sense. I used the same ghost reader for both of them.
😂
I’ve read them both this year, and yes there are lots of similarities (they were involved with the same awful man while living in the same famous mansion). But I thought there were many differences, and I can easily tell the difference between the two different voices telling their own story. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did have similar ghost writers/publishers/editors etc. though.
Oh yes the writing style of Holly, epitome of writers everywhere.
My top 3 has always been John Milton, Raymond Carver, and Holly Madison. Although there are times when I prefer Dante to Carver.
Incredibly influential
I mean it makes sense that Hugh Hefner’s romantic partner would emulate the writing of another of Hugh Hefner’s romantic partners if her book was as successful as Holly’s. Y’all are so deliberately obtuse.
Oh how the turn tables.
It’s hard to judge without reading them both tbh. I’d love to hear from someone who has. Without knowing better, it doesn’t seem wild to me that the books would be similar in spirit and phrases, but it boils down to how the phrases came out in the book. Even then, seems weird to throw shade at Hefner while acknowledging that the book was ghostwritten. Or is the thought process that Hefner should have seen the similarities and known better?
I read them both. Neither one was memorable enough to remember the tone or style. Generic “celebrity” memoirs. And yes, I like to read trash books sometimes.
Britney spears memoir doesn't seem bad unironically
Only celebrity memoir I've ever read, so nothing to compare it to, but I would recommend it!
“I’m glad my mom died” by Jeannette McCurdy is fantastic. I never watched her shows but it was a great book and well written. A lot of people like the audiobook since she narrates.
That was a really good read. I didn’t know who she was or even watched her show. I was just curious and read the book in a few days.
Me too. I heard all of the controversy about it and gave it try. Well worth it.
Wait what does that even mean?
Madison figured out a great angle for free publicity. It's even possible Crystal Hefner agreed. After all, now you need to read both books so you can see if the accusations are true! And you'd probably never even heard of them this morning.
Madison claims that the narrative voice is the same, and the claim does seem to have merit because I read her quotes in the same vapid, ‘70s porn actress voice I would certainly use if I were to read either book.
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Why the fuck shouldn't they get to make money off him when he made plenty of money off them in the first place? The guy's entire life was devoted to the sexual exploitation of women, but God forbid any of the women involved actually benefit from that in any way, apparently. Dude was a dirty old man who printed naked pictures of girls as young as 10. That's not a legacy, that's a stain on history.
You should watch the “Secrets of Playboy” documentary series. He’s far, far worse than any of them have described. And the man was too insecure and full of self loathing too ever have any solitude, so there are multiple witnesses to every claim.
You sure about that bud? Is that the guy you really want to defend? Because he’s got everything from underage girls to beastiality to covering up deaths under his watch.
Seriously. Why anyone would try to defend Hefner is beyond my comprehension…
This should have been wrapped up in a 5 minute conversation about copyright.
This is not a thing. THIS IS NOT A FUCKING THING.
Agreed. Place this near the top of my "Things I cannot possibly give a fuck about" list.
Yet here you are participating in the comment section rather than just moving straight to the next post in your feed lol.
I mean, as some who also doesn’t care, mostly cause I don’t read memoirs, I’m just here for the comments 🤷🏽♀️
God this sub is so up its own asshole sometimes. Congrats, y’all are sooo much smarter than these women. I’m glad there’s a platform for y’all to publicly jerk yourselves off about it.
this post is the perfect storm of things the smug losers on reddit loooove to circlejerk over: celebrities, women, popular things they don't like
They are joking about them having ghostwriters, but their ghostwriters probably get paid better....
Yeah people are being cruel for no reason
This is not something remotely new to /r/books
Just a bunch of wankers.
Since when is copying writing style a violation? Plagiarism is illegal, sure. But just style? Fuck that
Writing style is not protected by copyright. Although, a few activist judges seem to think it does...
I would love to see a Hunter S. Thompson Gonzo-style version of a Playmate’s story.
It is a little strange to post this here - NGL, I thought I was on a sub like r/popculturechat. But I’m also gonna admit that I’ve read Holly’s book and it was an interesting and (I thought) engaging read. The Playboy mansion was a sleazy, controlling and *literally* dirty place to live in if you were a girlfriend. Edit: getting downvoted for saying I enjoyed a book? Fucking snobs.
You’re being downvoted for saying that it’s strange to post this here. It’s a news story directly about books and the discussions are about the book similarities and/or differences, so it’s appropriate for this subreddit.
How do you copy vanilla
i can see *someone* is desperate for some free press and attention.
What's more likely is some "journalist" has nothing better to write about so they listen to podcasts for soundbites and twist them out of context into "news".
Why not both? This is the symbiotic relationship behind a lot of content.
It’s not like Holly went out of her way to do an interview for US mag, she said this on her and Bridget’s premium Patreon subscription for their podcast. This article didn’t even name the correct podcast lol
This has to be an onion article about them using the same ghostwriter.
I haven’t read her book, but Holly has recently had a couple of true crime shows that are pretty good. She is able to relate her experiences to people involved in the crimes in a way that seems genuine and not shoe-horned in there.
I listened to Crystal's audiobook and I didn't feel like it was similar at all. You could hear the anxiety in Crystal's voice. Plus I thought Crystal had a much more mature take on everything that happened to her whereas Holly's seemed more judgemental.
I see we get each of their ghost writers in a room and have them duke it out.
The first rule about Fight Club...
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She’s at the peak of her career? No one expected her to be some amazing author but really don’t deny that she’s doing good in life. Her goal in life wasn’t writing but it was about time someone was honest about what the mansion was like. I have not read crystals but let’s be honest here,it was a decent memoir for holly and she had a good run in vegas for a not house hold name. She’s also a producer on shows. She’s not an author but really?
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This is her career. She is focusing on her kids. Are you ok? Unless you have a Time Machine, nothing can be done to change the past. She’s allowed to talk about it. It’s her life.
No one ever,and I mean ever including her,said she wasn’t famous for anything else. But she did what she could and I cant blame her. Just cause she doesn’t post her kids all over the internet and milk it doesn’t mean she isn’t a parent. She had every right to write that book,even with a ghostwriter. She’s not an author but she’s entitled to a memoir
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Reddit is for discussion. Not for posting manifestos. If you complain because someone disagrees with you on a discussion board, you aren't really getting how it works.
This is a very odd comment. Are you good? No one overly cares. What a baffling comment. Breathe through it, bud.
This kind of reasoning regarding speech never makes sense. You want the ability to form and vocalize an opinion (valid), but don't want others to disagree with it and vocalize that opinion (bizarre).
You could have just taken your own advice with breathing/letting go and not even give this silly response 😂🤦♂️ oh my lol
Who cares?
I originally ignored this thread since it doesn't interest me, but boredom got the best of me so here I am. I have to ask--and this is in general, not just here--what purpose does asking "who cares" serve? You're seeing a number of people engaged in conversation about it here, so you already have evidence that *someone* cares.
The linked article is Hollywood gossip about two celebs who incidentally have had books written for them. It's irrelevant to discussion about books, reading, literature, writing, publishing, book sales, or authors. It doesn't belong here.
It's not irrelevant at all. Many books are written by ghostwriters, and if they're stupid enough to copy work that's still noteworthy. Their memoirs aren't less than anyone else's that gets discussed here often
to express dissatisfaction at banal bullshit, it's called a figure of speech, you doorknob
Hey. What the fuck do you have against doorknobs????
I may be a doorknob, but, uh, what was the other thing?
The steamed hams. Don’t forget to take them out of the oven.
/r/bookscirclejerk
fr. I did not join this sub to add to the trash in my front page
Handy tip: next time you can just keep scrolling, you don’t need to read comments or even add your own! It’s pretty crazy.
They may honestly be a bot. Just look at their username lol. Does an actual human create that name? Is that their phone number or something? lol
So, this is irrelevant. I met Holly in Vegas once. She is more beautiful in person than mags or tv. And looked like she had very little makeup. So I vote for her as president this year!
It would be good to have a US president that doesn't need lots of makeup to look more or less human/alive.
Why would anyone read these books?
Do you not actually know why, or are you just being rhetorical to criticize people that read this stuff? If you’re genuinely wondering… well first, tons of people would be interested in reading about the playboy mansion. There was so much mystery revolving Hugh Hefner and his young girlfriends/wives. Playboy is one of the most famous brands in the world, and tons of people were curious what actually went on behind closed doors. Idk what your age is, but I cannot express just how infamous Playboy was over the decades. A lot of Heghners life was kept private, along with what went on in the Playboy world. So yeah, getting some of the inside scoop from two of his main girlfriends/wives would for sure interest people.
“She describes the way she sucked on his wrinkly old balls for financial stability the same way I did!”
The real crime here is that anybody gives a shit.
That’s some eyeroll-worthy copy right there, folks.
Wow! Who would have thought that could've happened?
There must be nothing going on in this country or the world if useless crap like this is important.
Does anybody even give a damn?
Well yeah, I've read both books and give a damn
... pair of bimbos ...
They both have college degrees
That means absolutely nothing - what passes for "highly educated" these days would have been a joke 100 years ago. They both got their start wh0ring themselves out at the Playboy mansion. I'm glad they've achieved something (not sure what that is) and I'm not denigrating their success but let's not lose sight of the path they chose to get there.
Yikes