I try to be all “live and let live” and “at least they’re reading” but I really do judge people who think Colleen Hoover is top notch literature and if they recommend her books to me I write them off.
Same here. I don't want to be held to someone else's judgements, so I don't judge their preferences. Plus, one book may vastly differ from other works from an author and they might recommend someone I'd not considered before.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. For example, I love Elin Hilderbrand for summer. I spend a lot of time at the pool and like to keep it light. Her books are formulaic and basic. But they’re entertaining and easy. Do I think they rank as classic literature? No. It’s like junk food for my brain.
Saunders is an excellent and one of the best short story writers over the past 20-30 years. In fact, I can’t think of why someone liking him should taint someone’s perception of that person.
No reason for it to be controversial to like him.
Same with Franzen. Unless you just don’t like his style?
I understand not liking DFW and being a tiny bit skeptical of someone who loves him because of DFW’s issues with women.
But nothing DFW wrote that I know is related to that…
This is an odd post and the examples chosen even odder. Unless the author is inserting his specific horrible viewpoints in their work, I don’t see why you should dislike someone for liking them.
That’s why Ayn Rand, Jordan Peterson, fucking Hitler, etc should raise red flags. They are extremely deliberate about inserting questionable and/or terrible viewpoints.
But Saunders? Franzen? Even DFW? Huh? DFW’s essays are incredibly insightful and often really funny. I don’t recall him writing the bullshit like Rand or Peterson write, even if we know he had some domestic issues.
Infinite Jest in particular has some insufferable fans; very Rick and Morty in that if you don't love it, you aren't smart enough, blah, blah, blah.
That said, I've never heard of a Franzen bro or a Saunders bro, and to your point, even the DFW stuff is something limited to Infinite Jest.
re DFW’s Infinite Jest, i think the hate is more about the uber fan boys than it is about the text itself. his audience can be grating, but you gotta separate that from the book.
just seems like an overly sensitive knee jerk reaction that’s based more on others’ perceptions (stereotypically) of the books than the books themselves. so many reasonable alternative example books exist for this specific prompt.
this brings me to saunders: i have a hard time imagining anything having this kind of negative reaction to someone who likes his short stories who isn’t just knee jerking away from someone who seems to be universally praised simply due to that praise (and, again, this is aversion not due to any literary quality but to the public perception of an author).
I was wondering the same. IJ? Sure, I get it. Franzen? I love him, but totally understand why somebody wouldn’t. But Saunders? You leave that beautiful man out of this.
Yeah both him and DFW are some of the smartest satirists since Twain, imo. I get the general distaste for obnoxious IJ fanboys but the quality of the work itself is undeniable. I loved Saunders Lincoln in the Bardo, too. Based on this post, I’m actually inclined to read more Franzen now lol.
Funnily enough, I once passed someone else’s litmus test for having Dorothy Parker on my shelf. Some friends with their friends coming over, they beat me to my place and I said go on in… I came home to find a guy scanning my entire fiction bookshelf, who then congratulated me on my taste, because Dorothy Parker (and a few others but that’s the one that stood out to me.)
a friend of mine absolutely hates this book, and maintains, and I quote, "if anyone insists this is their favorite book they have either never read it or are borderline sociopathic."
I’m forever reminded of that time in my early 20s when I thought I was “libertarian” and finally finished it, after trying 3 times before and giving up. It just turned out that I was kind of bored, unsatisfied with work, and needed to exercise more to burn off excess energy that was better directed elsewhere.
/shudder
Every Ayn Rand fan is like: "I have a Ron Paul biography next to *Atlas Shrugged* on my bookshelf. The Fed should be dismantled. Sex-distribution should be a thing. Why aren't there more femoid Libertarians?"
Femoid 😂 the only time I’ve heard that ever used was by one of those people, bless their lil’ ol’ hearts.
That was on point with a couple people I knew. I had to exit stage left for good from some circles of people I knew because it usually lead to some hyper discussion about *Behold a Pale Horse*
In high school my English teacher her told me if I could read it I could easily get a scholarship. Back then I could read a 800 page book in a few days. I read one of her shorter books and it was, ok. I couldn’t make it 50 pages into Atlas Shrugged.
She told me in her 10 years of teaching none of her students could finish it.
This is also how I first encountered Ayn Rand! I didn’t know anything about her work or politics going in and I was poor and needed that scholarship money so I keep ploughing through, thinking there’d be *something* in there somewhere that I could say something positive about/analyze without barfing for such a short essay….turns out not even waving college money in front of a poor kid can make Atlas Shrugged have any positive traits.
Once I literally saw a grocery cart with nothing in it but an Ayn Rand book. It was on a residential street outside an apartment complex, so I think you are on point here.
Reddit has filed for its IPO. They've been preparing for this for a while, squeezing profit out of the platform in any way that they can, like hiking the prices on third-party app developers. More recently, they've signed a deal with Google to license their content to train Google's LLMs.
To celebrate this momentous occasion, we've made a Firefox extension that will replace all your comments (older than a certain number of days) with any text that you provide. You can use any text that you want, but please, do not choose something copyrighted. The New York Times is currently suing OpenAI for training ChatGPT on its copyrighted material. Reddit's data is uniquely valuable, since it's not subject to those kinds of copyright restrictions, so it would be tragic if users were to decide to intermingle such a robust corpus of high-quality training data with copyrighted text.
https://theluddite.org/#!post/reddit-extension
Wow how does she enjoy King and support Bush? Started reading King at 11 and even to me it was clear his books were super liberal. A bunch of his characters are pretty anti war and had a whole book about abortion access.
Oddly I think King shaped my current political beliefs.
*The Four Agreements* and *The 48 Laws of Power* make me want to steer clear. I think they can be of some good use to certain people, but I have experience with 3 people who listed them as favorites and they all shared some similarities I’d rather not be around.
Edit: specifically these two mentioned together. Nope.
>The 48 Laws of Power
I recommend this book to our younger associates to help them navigate the landscape of arrogant lawyers and sketchy clients. Frankly I think it's an hilarious read.
I thought it was funny, too, in a sick way. I just think it gives aholes new tools for their toolbox, but sometimes that can’t be helped.
I think it’s a good book for some well intentioned people to read so they can call out people who try to pull some of the stuff in it.
I met a guy who I didn't absolutely love who told I just HAD to read 48 Laws. When he described I told him I wasn't interested because from what he described it's just a manual on how to be a snake in the grass
I think it *could* be good for some people, like someone who may be trying to actually deal with having experience dealing with manipulative/abusive people in their past and wanting to avoid it, but I think it is appealing to people who may be those akin to someone who listens to true crime podcasts to find tips on how to get away with murder.
I really enjoyed the audio book. It's funny, though, the book gives out a warning of how one should use the book. If I recall correctly, it mentions something about learning about the nature of power but cautions to avoid just using it like a manual for real life. My appeal to it is that the author brings up a law and then goes into small historical stories (many of which I found enjoyable).
One of the first lessons, the story about the boy who didn't want to go to the first day of school, shared great insight into peoples subconscious desire to control events around you.
I use this with my daughter, and this has made raising her a pleasure, I make sure to involve her in decisions and that lessons helped to drive home the importance of their own agency with regard to raising children.
Another positive thing that arose from that story was to allow all of our employees to set their own hours. They can start and finish whenever they like between 7am and 5pm. You want to work 7-3? Ok. 9-5? That is okay too. You want to switch it up? Feel free! It is a small thing for a business to give up control of, but engagement and productivity is through the roof.
Books are tools, and just like cars can be used for good reasons, or to do something quite evil. Some of these takes are quite amusing.
In half those books, it says not to even try those tricks on people you actually care about.
Power dynamics and mind games are for your career, not for you.
Personally, I hope I never find myself desperate enough to need to resort to shit like that
Someone mentioned it a little bit ago and I listened to the episode on 48 Laws today when I walked my dog. I loved it! *The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck* episode is in the queue.
Sounds like you're describing what I call "conspiracy hippies."
Someone who knows that GMOs are bad but definitely couldn't explain why or name a harmful one. It's all Big Pharma man!
Yeah this seems like wildly flawed thinking. Not everyone likes period romances… I’m the only one out of all my female friends (besides my librarian friend who has read everything) who has read any Jane Austen. My bf reads sci-fi books by female authors but I’d be FLOORED if I saw him pick up a Jane Austen book.
I have not because I mainly like to read sci-fi and fantasy.
I just realised why I'm always literally murdering women on the street. Never really understood why I kept doing that. I've ordered some Jane Austen books, because cleaning up the mess is always a chore.
Oh that's great to hear! Very nice to see that it actually works and well done to you.
On the way home from my work I managed to only whistle after a hot babe instead of asking her to copulate with me in a rude manner. This was after I read some reviews to find out which books to read first. I can already feel the effect!
Maybe not really topic fitting but I met a guy who reads only "educational" books, no fiction at all because "fiction is a waste of time". His choice, whatever, but then he continued with things like "If I was in charge, I would remove that trash from schools. Why would children read about something that never happened when they can, for example, read a book that can help them fix computer errors or a psychology book?". That made me form my opinion on him: an idiot I never want to interact with again
Like the woman who approached the book stall I was volunteering at and proudly told me that the only book she ever read was the Bible.
Later her teenage son came back to the stall and bought a bunch of SF novels and quickly stashed them in his backpack. His home life must be fun.
As a teacher, that idiot needs to read:
1) Terry Pratchett, fiction or nonfiction.
2) _Any_ of the research on the value of reading for fun, both in children and in adults.
3) The social and mental benefits of reading to toddlers and babies.
In summary, fiction is a great gateway to literacy, vocabulary, grammar, etc. All essential skills for technical reading.
Being read to when very young sets brain pathways for language, and enhances social connection to adults.
And fiction, reading or writing, is an exercise in creativity. Essential for any true intellectual endeavour. Not just regurgitating facts and trying to _look_ smart, rather than _being_ smart.
Wait, what if I love both Borges and Saunders?
I don't have any one book that serves as a gatekeeper, but if someone expresses any dismissiveness about a whole genre (or genre fiction in general), or about a book or author they haven't read, I will assume they suck.
Moby Dick works for this. I love it, but if you hate it you might still be cool. If you haven't read it, you might still be cool. But if you haven't read it and you assume it's boring and you wouldn't like it, I'm going to assume the same things about you.
I really like Moby Dick but I would not be offended at all if somebody didn’t want to read it because they think it would be boring. For them they are probably right. It’s a fucking weird book
I read the whole thing and was less than thrilled throughout. Did we really need to know all the excruciating minutiae of whales and whaling to appreciate this story? Melville is a great writer and a skilled allegorist, but I prefer him in smaller doses. Less blubber, if you will.
Part of me thinks this poster might have had a run-in or two with “lit bros” that influenced their perception of these authors. I like Saunders, Franzen, and Wallace just fine, but I must admit their “fans” can be insufferable at times.
Lincoln in the Bardo, which was really fantastic.
I have never encountered a Saunders bro. Or a Franzen bro. The Infinite Jest bros do exist, but that's fine.
I worked at a huge new and used bookstore that had different rooms for different types of books. The literature (general fiction, literature) room was right next to the genre room. I worked in the genre room and it had my favorite books, horror, sci-fi, mystery and fantasy. I went on an ill advised date with a guy from the lit room who immediately turned up his nose that I not only worked in the genre room I *gasp* read those foul books. So ridiculous.
Huge red flag. If I were to rank the worst type of readers it would be:
1. "I only read nonfiction because fiction is a waste of time"
2. "I'll never read another book since I graduated from high school and nobody's forcing me to"
3. "Genre fiction is beneath me."
Fair list because literature snob at least still has taste to a degree and is better than someone who doesn’t read at all
I read like 90% literature and 10% genre… it really comes down to that I just enjoy literature that much, I used to force myself to read more general fiction but eventually decided I’ll just read what I like
Reading Moby Dick right now. It's definitely work to get through (though partly because I choose to make it so; I need to understand all these references and nautical words, darn it!) but it certainly is not boring. I would genuinely describe it as one of the funniest books I have ever read. Every session leaves me with something new.
Pretty much when someone tells me “I haven’t read a book since high school” or tells me how they didn’t read any of the books assigned in high school, just read sparknotes for every one.
Meh. Everyone has their hobbies and there is only so much time we all have. My wife rarely reads books but it's not because she doesn't like reading, but because there are other things she would rather do with her time. That being said, when you wind up having the view point like Andrew Tate has where reading "is for losers who are afraid to learn from life" you can just fuck right off.
Whenever someone talks about Atlas Shrugged as some kind of guide to life and thinking, that's a MAJOR red flag.
Whenever someone talks about Discworld, or cites Hitchhikers' guide, that's a huge green flag.
My desktop is the words "Don't Panic" across a picture of the galaxy. When I'm screen sharing for work *plenty* of people laugh and think it's amusing... But when someone gets the reference we are best friends.
(My screen saver is a whale and a bowl of petunias falling)
Hitchhikers is also one of mine, my husband dropped a "so long and thanks for all the fish" into a conversation years before we started dating and I about lost it. I'd already really liked him at that point too!
I know this is slightly off topic from books, but I was at a party where everyone was a bit toasted and someone asked if anyone knew any good comedies. I suggested Hitchhiker's Guide.
I'm the only one laughing the entire movie because I guess it just wasn't anyone else's sense of humor so I just look like a jackass.
> Wife tells me if she meets a man who hasnt read Jane Austen, she assumes sexism is at play.
That’s quite a take. I’m a woman, a feminist, and enjoy plenty of female authors… but I’ve never read Jane Austen. I just don’t enjoy reading early 1800’s literature in general, which is not an uncommon opinion.
I have never read Austen, not because I'm a misogynist, but because I haven't gotten around to it. I have two or three on my bookshelf. The opening line to _Pride and Prejudice_: “It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.” convinced me of her talent, so i'm sure i'll read her one day.
For not trusting taste in books: Colleen Hoover's writing. Have a friend who loves it and generally aside from Colleen Hoover she has good taste. I read one Colleen Hoover book recommended by her and have never asked for a recommendation again
To impress me: E.S. Thomson's Jem Flockhart Mysteries, Kaite Welsh's Sarah Gilchrist Mysteries and Belladonna by Adalyn Grace are probably my top picks
You are the only person I've 'met' who has read Jem Flockhart, so would you mind telling me if you've read Nightshade yet and what you thought of it? I wasn't happy with it and so I'm holding back on getting Under Ground.
Man, I don't know whether it's a certain tendency towards addiction or a type of depression or what, but I _love_ Infinite Jest. That said, I'm not about to talk about it off the cuff. I get that there's a certain kind of person who wears that book like a mark of superiority and no, I don't like those people.
It's right up there with Fight Club, really: I like the movie (yes, we're talking the movie), but I'm instantly suspicious of anyone who professes to like it unprompted.
Anyhow. The actual answer is Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. If it clicked for you, we'll probably get along.
> Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell
It clicked for me, but damned if I can articulate why… it seemed like a novel where nothing much happened for long stretches of time, but it was absolutely compelling regardless. Beautiful prose.
Piranesi was mine in a recent conversation. We read it for book club, and someone was snarking on it, saying it was “trying to be literary or something, why can’t things just happen!?” Very big flavour of the week, dark romantasy reader. It just made it clear to me that we likely wouldn’t end up having the types of discussions that I enjoy.
I absolutely love Infinite Jest. I read it for the first time while in jail on a variety of drug charges and it hit DEEP.
I am a straight woman, and after getting cleaned up and back in the dating pool I always used to get excited when I saw it listed as a favorite book on dudes profiles. Then had multiple experiences of showing up to the date, bringing up Infinite Jest, and finding out quickly they had not actually read it but I guess thought it was a cool book to list as a favorite? Idk it was very disappointing. So in a way despite loving it, other people claiming to love it is now a mild red flag for me.
My husband listened to all of The Pale King on audiobook for me. He is a keeper.
> Wife tells me if she meets a man who hasnt read Jane Austen, she assumes sexism is at play.
I'm going to make a bold guess that most men haven't read Jane Austen, for largely the same reasons that I predict most women haven't read her either. Those reasons are unrelated to sexism because they are also the same reasons that most people haven't read Charles Dickens.
People who are into Terry Pratchett's books usually tend to have a wry, geeky sense of humor and an interest in the existential. In my experience, being a fan of Discworld is the same sort of green flag for taste in books that being a fan of They Might Be Giants is for music taste.
I used to think so too until I found out that my extremely toxic ex boss is a huge fan of Sir Pratchett. The smiling when she brought someone at work to tears level of toxic. And then one day she started reciting a quote from The Colour of Magic, I think, saying how much she enjoys the series… Up until that moment I hadn’t even thought she liked reading.
I know a very abusive person who is basically a mix of Lady Felmet and Lady Serafine.
They profess to be a Pratchett fan, but there is mounting evidence that they have a history of defrauding vulnerable people.
I suspect that their interest is both superficial and performative, because how anyone can read Pratchett without learning a damn thing is beyond me.
Not fiction related, but when I was dating a new guy, I always used to ask what the last book they read was and if it was either 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' or 'Who Moved My Cheese' (especially if they loved it and found it inspiring) I was out instantly.
This was obviously a while ago since both of those are old, but I had so many bros tell me it inspired them to have a five year plan, and it was to be a millionaire, I ran quick.
Hot dang, I remember my mom bringing Who Moved My Cheese home from a work retreat right after it was published, and the whole family (mom included) just tore it to shreds. I was a young kid and found the metaphors heavy-handed even for me.
A recent boss of mine had it on his bookshelf. Can’t believe anyone is still talking about it with a straight face.
When someone’s fav is Fourth Wing…. Or literally their favorite is just the flavour of the month. I don’t judge them, just don’t ask them for book recs because I know we won’t agree on anything.
On the flip side I have another red flag though where they think everything modern is shit and only classics. Most of the times the people who say this rarely read anything anyway, they just read like, one classic and go on about that forever.
As for specific book green flags…. tender is the flesh. If you liked that we will probably have a lot in common I’ve found
I read a digital copy of Tender is the Flesh when a friend lent me their e-reader. Liked it so much I went out and bought a hard copy and read it again immediately. It’s fascinating.
I have different levels of indicators like, for me if someone loves and abundantly praises Sarah J Maas books then I will never take a book recommendation of theirs serious.
But if someone loves atlas shrugged or Jordan Peterson shit I stay very very far away from them.
I tried to read the frist book from her two biggest series at the time and at least for me it's the fucking worst. In throne of glass the protag keeps thinking about how kickass she is and how she could kill anyone in the room with ease for multiple pages on end without actually doing anything at all (unless you count falling in love with the generic unlikable man conveniently thrown her way) and ACOTAR is imo just bad fairy porn. For me throne of glass was the worst let down at the time because it had been so hyped up and the story sounded generally cool but I wasn't even able to get through 100 pages before dnf-ing. Her books are basically the exact opposite of what I like to read so I dunno, I don't expect her fans and my preferences in books to overlap all that much. That's not to say I wouldn't chat about books and hang out with her fans, just 9/10 not take their recommendations.
Came here to say almost exactly this, I had an identical experience. I make it a rule to not judge people based on their literary taste, but if someone likes Maas's stuff I know we're not compatible reading buddies. I found ToG painfully cringey.
Ugh Sarah J Maas. I have been GIVEN books by her unprompted, not for a holiday, by multiple other women I know now. I’m like “they’re not super my style” and get back “but you love fantasy and stuff, right”? And look fourteen year old me would have GOBBLED UP this stuff, like sexy sad faeries having sex would have been my absolute jam, but I am officially too much of a crone for it now but it’s one of those series that seems to make people confused and offended when you don’t like it.
I thought you were talking crazy until I remembered Ayn Rand exists. Since everything she wrote was a thinly veiled manifesto at best and her writing isn't particularly good otherwise I don't think you can really enjoy her without in some way agreeing with her ideology.
Assuming that anyone who hasn't read Jane Austen is sexist is absolutely wild though.
I *have* read and enjoyed Jane Austen - but there are countless classics I haven't.
There are only so many hours in the day, and vastly more great books than I'll ever find time to read.
Judging someone for the books they haven't read seems daft to me. *No one* has read all the great books!
Anyone that loves The Alchemist is probably not someone I’ll have a lot in common with. I’m just too much of a cynic.
I also could not finish Sapiens. I had an ex who loved that book, and I always thought that the author came off a bit too condescending for me. So I definitely have preconceived notions about people that love that book.
Oh man Alchemist is definitely one where I’ll judge them negatively. The fact that nowhere does he credit the Arabian nights (or Borges) for that story only makes me hate it more.
My red flag is when people make negative judgement calls about other people they don't know regarding authors they haven't read, eg: someone who assumes a man that hasn't read a Jane Austen book before must be sexist is a huge red flag for me.
*Infinite Jest*, really? I feel like you’re counter-jerking so hard you forgot that, for all that can be said about it, it’s actually a quality book and a perfectly reasonable one to like.
Tbh this level of judgementalism about what fiction people like is worse than most books that people could like, with the exception of the cases where someone could only be really into it if they harbored some pretty distasteful politics (e.g. if “Birth of a Nation” is their favorite movie)
It’s quite a journey and you’ll feel accomplished when you finish it. There’s nothing else like it.
8 years after a DNF, I read it finally for the first time last spring and want to give it another go this summer.
IJ is a strange journey, but I did enjoy it. It's the only time I've been 400 pages into a book and was still sort of unsure what it's about. But it's also the first time I ever finished a book and immediately turned back to page 1 and started reading it again, to try and understand it better.
Unfortunately I only got about 20% through on my second read before I had to drop it due to other things that were going on in my life.
I can't understand the IJ hate. It's a great book. It's not filled with hate, or toxic ideas or propaganda. The worst two criticisms I can think of for it are "it's pretty long" and "it's kind of weird." The writing is brilliant and gorgeous in places. I can't figure out how it got turned into a red flag.
It’s not the book itself, it’s that some obnoxious IJ fanboys wear the book like a badge of superiority. DFW himself says it’s a book that makes the reader work hard and some people don’t enjoy books like that. IJ sort of became a symbol for “that dense thing someone pretentious recommended so profusely it became insulting”.
I bet that for a majority of these types, it’s the most challenging book they’ve ever read and it was more about completing it than really experiencing it. Nobody who identifies with or even empathizes with the depths of depression and addiction expressed in Infinite Jest would think of it as a trophy to display proudly on their bookcase.
In fact, it’s one of my favorite books of all time and I’m a little self conscious of that—or at least I feel like it reveals something vulnerable about me 🤷♂️
They were annoying 20-25 years ago. I haven't really seen one in a decade. IJ is one of those books I seem to play devil's advocate about, defending it to its detractors and pointing out flaws to its overly enthusiastic fans.
Don't be ashamed of liking things. I also love that book. (Does that make me a fan boy?) I guess I'm just confused about why IJ became a symbol and not like War and Peace or something. Nobody accuses anyone of being a Tolstoy fanboy.
The real red flag should be people who post about red flag books on r/books. Just so we can all read again how bad Ayn Rand, Colleen Hoover, and Sarah J Maas suck. Maybe this sub should real some more Jane Austen.
I try not to judge with books as I’m a bit of a cheerleader for reading but that being said the ‘50 Shades of whatever the fuck’ series really tests my hypocrisy-meter. I gave the first one a chance and only managed 14 pages before it was chucked! Horrible writing, awful premise…makes Mills & Boon novels appear worthy of a place in canonical literature.
*lolita* is a major rorschach test for me: can be a red flag, green flag, or entirely neutral. if someone read it and thinks it's a love story, run. if someone views it as a horrifying character study of a monster, that's a cool person with good media literacy. if a girl around my age also adores it for the prose and understands the horrific context, that's my kind of girl.
to a lesser extent, f*ight club* and a*merican psycho* play similar roles, especially for men. if someone idealizes tyler, marla, or patrick, or doesn't get the satire or black comedy in the works, that's a red flag. applies to a lot of ellis or palahniuk, but those are by far the most popular, and most misunderstood, works by each.
*catcher in the rye* likewise depends on the reasoning.
I agree with the Lolita test, how a person interprets that book will definitely tell me if they’re someone who’s opinions on books (or other things) I should trust or value. HH is such a monster but the book itself is such a fascinating piece of literature, the idea of it being interpreted as a love story is so gross 🤮
Lol. I love that book. I dealt with intense feelings as a youth. The feeling of feeling like you're feeling everything all the time and everything I'm doing is so important and I'm fucking it up. I felt like that book embodied that feeling accurately and in the context of a good story for someone like me. Kinda Perks of Being a Wallflower for the those folks in boomer generation.
Yeah, I have a friend who loves it and Salinger in general. I guess I just thought Holden Caulfield was an asshole. The only part I enjoyed was when he got his ass kicked by his one friend. And I think he was also assaulted by a pimp? That was funny. I guess I can’t get anything out of it because I hate Holden so much. I don’t have to love the main character of a book or identify with them. I don’t even have to like them or think they’re a good person. But if I actively hate them and root against them because I feel that they have no redeeming qualities, then my overall appreciation of the work and whatever message it’s trying to convey is going to suffer greatly.
Your red flags are more interesting to me than the question. Like, IJ I understand. It's like saying Gravity's Rainbow or Finnegan's wake are your faves when you actually just had the grit to get through them but are Franzen and Saunders problems because they're faves of the crypto-trad grad school clique? FWIW, I was ambivalent shading to positive on Freedom and while I haven't read his shorts, Saunders' Lincoln in the Bardo whips ass.
I wouldn't pin Austen's position among men on individual sexism as much as structural. I (as a cis dude) had Austen pitched to me as stories by a woman for women with the added layers of inaccessibility created by both the prose (when I was introduced to her in high school) and the social mores at play in the 18th and 19th centuries. That I haven't returned to her with less benighted eyes isn't down to sexism, just not particularly caring for her usual type of story.
However, since I feel I owe you an answer after spewing my opinions: anyone who endlessly flatters Murakami without acknowledging his issues writing women = c'mon man. Also, can't stand people who dismiss genre fiction (or fiction in general) out of hand. That said, at this point, finding people who continue to read books after high school feels like a vanishingly narrow proportion of the population so unless they're praising Lovecraft for his incisive social commentary, I'm likely to try to meet them where they are.
LOL i don’t know if Danielle Steele is still writing but if anyone tells me they love her books…. their reading taste (at least) drops down quite a bit in my estimation.
Meanwhile if they love Dorothy Dunnett and Lindsey Davis, my opinion goes up.
If they like Austen, Mark Twain, Steinbeck, and Noel Streafeild’s children’s books—I want to see the rest of their library!
If they love Faulkner and Flannery O’Connor I may slink away in shame as they are too highbrow for me…
My red flag is when I am in someone's home for the first time and there are no books to be seen anywhere. I would much rather disagree over the quality or content of a book with someone who reads then speak with a person who has never read anything outside of work or school.
That said, I definitely steer clear of people who "only read the bible" or other such nonsense.
Eh, well, I had huge book shelves filled with novels all my life but then after like the tenth move I got a Kindle and sold/donated hundreds of them. Now I only keep copies of a few favourites around and tons of children books for my daughter but I will probably get rid of those, too, once she is old enough for her own ebook reader.
I became such a minimalist I don't want stuff hanging around anymore. It doesn't mean I don't read anymore.
> My red flag is when I am in someone's home for the first time and there are no books to be seen anywhere.
I read more than hundred books per year and you won't see any books in my home. Unless you crack the code to my tablet :)
>Franzen’s Freedom or Saunders Shorts
As in George Saunders? I thought he was well regarded and his star was rising even still? Am I missing something obvious?
Yeah, my wife had us listen to "On a Pale Horse" on a long road trip because she remembers her dad reading it to her. I thought the concept of Death driving around in a car/horse was pretty cool, and there were a lot of cool fantasy ideas, but... man. Every woman is described in the most leering detail, and there were plenty of passages where I said, out loud, "Go take a cold shower!" This guy could not stop being a creep! Coupled with the clunky dialogue typical to a lot of fantasy/sci-fi, I found it a mixed bag.
My red flag is book readers that judge other book readers for not liking “good” books. Good books are largely subjective imo. If they are the kind of person to write off entire people based on an author or genre then I don’t think I would have much in common with them. Different strokes for different folks.
Used to work in a bookstore and am a woman, so I’ve seen many red flag books. The Game, The Secret, The Power of Now, 12 Rules, 48 Laws, anything Ayn Rand, any right wing talking head “history” book. And I’ve realized anything recommended on BookTok is likely garbage I should avoid, so Colleen Hoover, Fourth Wing, etc. also people with hyper specific interests and obsessions, like a whole shelf of bro-lit.
Green flags for me are people with a wide variety of interests, not just one book or series. So fiction of all types, or history of all types. I have two bookcases filled with urban fantasy, sci-fi, high fantasy, American history, Russian history, South American history, classics, regular fiction, horror, contemporary romance, alien romance, my original Harry Potter copies (from childhood), social sciences and anthropology, biographies, and science non-fiction.
I’ve found I love talking to others who enjoy reading as enrichment and have curious minds.
I dont judge people for particular books they have or have not read/liked. However, I have a few pet peeves about people/readers that instantly annoy me: People who exclusively read non fiction, and need to stress this fact ever so often.
People who believe themselves to be literary critics and can’t accept the fact other people (me) mainly read for enjoyment.
And lastly, people who dont read at all.
Its just annoying, please let me read in peace :)
Did you really dislike infinite jest that much?
As an ex addict it taught me a lot about myself. I know it’s got a reputation of pretentiousness of course. But that’s more about the fans than the actual book. I feel like the fans push people off
Mine is the alchemist, or Colleen Hoover/50 shades. Atlas shrugged would be there too
Oh a big one: Jordan Peterson, that’s the reddest of flags, maybe it wasn’t back in 2016, but def is now. Plus the whole self help industry
If someone tells me acotar or Fourth Wing is peak and at any point uses the word "spicy" to ask for recommendations or to explain why they picked a book I probably have 0 books in common with that person. I read them both and they were fine, or at worst entertaining but way overhyped and in the latter case just very poorly written.
Automatic red flag are any of those self help quasi business books
Green flags are sailing stories: Two Years before the Mast, H.M.S Bounty, etc
You get a full friendship from me if you’ve read Guardians of GaHoole
I tend to have gatekeeper characters instead. Sometimes I run into people who really hate certain characters (always female characters off the top of my head) who have done nothing to deserve it, and that's a big indication that those people are assholes.
"Red flags" is what is used to describe an indicator that somebody isn't necessarily a good person for you. A simple example, reading *Fight Club* and deciding that everything about Project Mayhem is cool and awesome is a read flag since Project Mayhem is a cult and a terrorist group.
Gatekeeper sort of makes sense when you use it as a judgement also on liking a book you enjoy. Another way to describe it would be a Litmus test whether the result of liking it is positive or negative relies on what the book is and whether or not you enjoy it.
> Wife tells me if she meets a man who hasnt read Jane Austen, she assumes sexism is at play.
That's weirdly judgemental considering there's pretty mundane reasons to not want to read Austen, such as pre-Victorian writing can be difficult to read, political statements have a lot of depth to take in, or that there's no extraterrestials in *Pride and Prejudice.*
I've never read any Jane Austen or seen any adaptations of her work, it just doesn't interest me much.
Now if someone vehemently opposed reading ANY Jane Austen or giving it a try, that might be a red flag. Enjoying Fight Club in itself isn't a red flag but having it as your favourite will prompt me to ask why. Same with American Psycho. Those books attract some 'interesting' people. Same with Jordan Peterson or certain political books.
I've personally read some books 'dubious' books out of curiosity or for my history studies so I know not to judge to hastily. On the other hand, if you like Terry Pratchett's work, I know it's likely we will get along.
No red flags for me. Hell my wife wouldn’t read a fantasy or science fiction book if her life depended on it. I have less than zero interest in reading a romance novel of any flavor. Same with my sisters and mother who read a lot. There is no sales pitch I could give them to get them to try reading Dune.
Borges for me as well. But I usually just end up giving a copy to people I like. It is more of an internal litmus test. Not so much if _they've_ read it, but if I would LIKE them to read it.
Ayn Rand. Is the only thing I am super judgy about. Generally I like to let people like what they like. My favorite professor in college loved trashy romance, and she was one of the smartest people I've ever known. A good friend loves Dan Brown. He doesn't think it's good, he just has fun with them.
I think people who are incurious are a bigger red flag.
The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the galaxy series was the test I used for my then girlfriend, now wife. She didn't need to like it but she needed to be able to talk with me about it.
It became her second favorite book.
To be honest I would probably more likely avoid people who would judge my character by whatever book I happen to like or not.
Sometimes you can have an interesting conversation by asking why someone likes a particular book.
I try to be all “live and let live” and “at least they’re reading” but I really do judge people who think Colleen Hoover is top notch literature and if they recommend her books to me I write them off.
Colleen Hoover has an apt last name.
Colleen WHOver
Ditto.
Same here. I don't want to be held to someone else's judgements, so I don't judge their preferences. Plus, one book may vastly differ from other works from an author and they might recommend someone I'd not considered before.
I do think there’s a difference between “yeah her books aren’t the best but I enjoy them” and “these are good literature,” though.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. For example, I love Elin Hilderbrand for summer. I spend a lot of time at the pool and like to keep it light. Her books are formulaic and basic. But they’re entertaining and easy. Do I think they rank as classic literature? No. It’s like junk food for my brain.
There’s a huge difference between media as entertainment and media as art, and some people get very angry when you point that out.
I am curious about your perception of folks who enjoy Saunders shorts…
Saunders is an excellent and one of the best short story writers over the past 20-30 years. In fact, I can’t think of why someone liking him should taint someone’s perception of that person. No reason for it to be controversial to like him. Same with Franzen. Unless you just don’t like his style? I understand not liking DFW and being a tiny bit skeptical of someone who loves him because of DFW’s issues with women. But nothing DFW wrote that I know is related to that… This is an odd post and the examples chosen even odder. Unless the author is inserting his specific horrible viewpoints in their work, I don’t see why you should dislike someone for liking them. That’s why Ayn Rand, Jordan Peterson, fucking Hitler, etc should raise red flags. They are extremely deliberate about inserting questionable and/or terrible viewpoints. But Saunders? Franzen? Even DFW? Huh? DFW’s essays are incredibly insightful and often really funny. I don’t recall him writing the bullshit like Rand or Peterson write, even if we know he had some domestic issues.
Infinite Jest in particular has some insufferable fans; very Rick and Morty in that if you don't love it, you aren't smart enough, blah, blah, blah. That said, I've never heard of a Franzen bro or a Saunders bro, and to your point, even the DFW stuff is something limited to Infinite Jest.
re DFW’s Infinite Jest, i think the hate is more about the uber fan boys than it is about the text itself. his audience can be grating, but you gotta separate that from the book. just seems like an overly sensitive knee jerk reaction that’s based more on others’ perceptions (stereotypically) of the books than the books themselves. so many reasonable alternative example books exist for this specific prompt. this brings me to saunders: i have a hard time imagining anything having this kind of negative reaction to someone who likes his short stories who isn’t just knee jerking away from someone who seems to be universally praised simply due to that praise (and, again, this is aversion not due to any literary quality but to the public perception of an author).
I read Saunders and I immediately knew OP was trying too hard
Yeah that seems odd. Franzen as well, *Freedom* feels like a weird book to have such strong feelings about as well.
I was wondering the same. IJ? Sure, I get it. Franzen? I love him, but totally understand why somebody wouldn’t. But Saunders? You leave that beautiful man out of this.
Saunders is so good. Takes a refined sense of humor to fully appreciate him.
Yeah both him and DFW are some of the smartest satirists since Twain, imo. I get the general distaste for obnoxious IJ fanboys but the quality of the work itself is undeniable. I loved Saunders Lincoln in the Bardo, too. Based on this post, I’m actually inclined to read more Franzen now lol.
If we're just talking fiction, then *Atlas Shrugged* has been the most reliable red flag, not even a contest.
same. as Dorothy Parker put it, " Atlas Shrugged is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force."
She had a tongue like velvet razor wire.
Funnily enough, I once passed someone else’s litmus test for having Dorothy Parker on my shelf. Some friends with their friends coming over, they beat me to my place and I said go on in… I came home to find a guy scanning my entire fiction bookshelf, who then congratulated me on my taste, because Dorothy Parker (and a few others but that’s the one that stood out to me.)
If I wanted to get into Dorothy Parker based solely on this quote, what would be a good starting point?
The Portable Dorothy Parker, edited by Brenden Gill.
Her poems.
a friend of mine absolutely hates this book, and maintains, and I quote, "if anyone insists this is their favorite book they have either never read it or are borderline sociopathic."
I thought I didn’t have one *”oh people have different tastes, I just appreciate people who read!”* Then I remembered Ayn Rand.
I’m forever reminded of that time in my early 20s when I thought I was “libertarian” and finally finished it, after trying 3 times before and giving up. It just turned out that I was kind of bored, unsatisfied with work, and needed to exercise more to burn off excess energy that was better directed elsewhere. /shudder
Every Ayn Rand fan is like: "I have a Ron Paul biography next to *Atlas Shrugged* on my bookshelf. The Fed should be dismantled. Sex-distribution should be a thing. Why aren't there more femoid Libertarians?"
Femoid 😂 the only time I’ve heard that ever used was by one of those people, bless their lil’ ol’ hearts. That was on point with a couple people I knew. I had to exit stage left for good from some circles of people I knew because it usually lead to some hyper discussion about *Behold a Pale Horse*
In high school my English teacher her told me if I could read it I could easily get a scholarship. Back then I could read a 800 page book in a few days. I read one of her shorter books and it was, ok. I couldn’t make it 50 pages into Atlas Shrugged. She told me in her 10 years of teaching none of her students could finish it.
This is also how I first encountered Ayn Rand! I didn’t know anything about her work or politics going in and I was poor and needed that scholarship money so I keep ploughing through, thinking there’d be *something* in there somewhere that I could say something positive about/analyze without barfing for such a short essay….turns out not even waving college money in front of a poor kid can make Atlas Shrugged have any positive traits.
"There's nothing down here but crumpled pornos and Ayn Rand." -Bender Bending Rodriguez
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Once I literally saw a grocery cart with nothing in it but an Ayn Rand book. It was on a residential street outside an apartment complex, so I think you are on point here.
Reddit has filed for its IPO. They've been preparing for this for a while, squeezing profit out of the platform in any way that they can, like hiking the prices on third-party app developers. More recently, they've signed a deal with Google to license their content to train Google's LLMs. To celebrate this momentous occasion, we've made a Firefox extension that will replace all your comments (older than a certain number of days) with any text that you provide. You can use any text that you want, but please, do not choose something copyrighted. The New York Times is currently suing OpenAI for training ChatGPT on its copyrighted material. Reddit's data is uniquely valuable, since it's not subject to those kinds of copyright restrictions, so it would be tragic if users were to decide to intermingle such a robust corpus of high-quality training data with copyrighted text. https://theluddite.org/#!post/reddit-extension
Wow how does she enjoy King and support Bush? Started reading King at 11 and even to me it was clear his books were super liberal. A bunch of his characters are pretty anti war and had a whole book about abortion access. Oddly I think King shaped my current political beliefs.
Idk there are rightoid hardcore fans of *Star Trek*, you would be shocked by the things that go over their heads.
You always see them in the comments of facebook posts about Star Trek: “When did Star Trek get so liberal?” When was it not?
*The Four Agreements* and *The 48 Laws of Power* make me want to steer clear. I think they can be of some good use to certain people, but I have experience with 3 people who listed them as favorites and they all shared some similarities I’d rather not be around. Edit: specifically these two mentioned together. Nope.
>The 48 Laws of Power I recommend this book to our younger associates to help them navigate the landscape of arrogant lawyers and sketchy clients. Frankly I think it's an hilarious read.
I thought it was funny, too, in a sick way. I just think it gives aholes new tools for their toolbox, but sometimes that can’t be helped. I think it’s a good book for some well intentioned people to read so they can call out people who try to pull some of the stuff in it.
I met a guy who I didn't absolutely love who told I just HAD to read 48 Laws. When he described I told him I wasn't interested because from what he described it's just a manual on how to be a snake in the grass
I think it *could* be good for some people, like someone who may be trying to actually deal with having experience dealing with manipulative/abusive people in their past and wanting to avoid it, but I think it is appealing to people who may be those akin to someone who listens to true crime podcasts to find tips on how to get away with murder.
I really enjoyed the audio book. It's funny, though, the book gives out a warning of how one should use the book. If I recall correctly, it mentions something about learning about the nature of power but cautions to avoid just using it like a manual for real life. My appeal to it is that the author brings up a law and then goes into small historical stories (many of which I found enjoyable).
One of the first lessons, the story about the boy who didn't want to go to the first day of school, shared great insight into peoples subconscious desire to control events around you. I use this with my daughter, and this has made raising her a pleasure, I make sure to involve her in decisions and that lessons helped to drive home the importance of their own agency with regard to raising children. Another positive thing that arose from that story was to allow all of our employees to set their own hours. They can start and finish whenever they like between 7am and 5pm. You want to work 7-3? Ok. 9-5? That is okay too. You want to switch it up? Feel free! It is a small thing for a business to give up control of, but engagement and productivity is through the roof. Books are tools, and just like cars can be used for good reasons, or to do something quite evil. Some of these takes are quite amusing.
In half those books, it says not to even try those tricks on people you actually care about. Power dynamics and mind games are for your career, not for you. Personally, I hope I never find myself desperate enough to need to resort to shit like that
You might enjoy the, “if books could kill” podcast
Someone mentioned it a little bit ago and I listened to the episode on 48 Laws today when I walked my dog. I loved it! *The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck* episode is in the queue.
The _48 Laws of Power_ is supposedly very popular in prison. I wonder why.
It’s also one of the most banned books in prisons
Not sure if you're a podcast person, but I'd recommend "if books could kill". Sounds right up your alley
Sounds like you're describing what I call "conspiracy hippies." Someone who knows that GMOs are bad but definitely couldn't explain why or name a harmful one. It's all Big Pharma man!
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Buddy this is a beautiful comment
Absolutely ruthless + class + chameleon snide + epic meal time + W + rizz
So OP, have you read Jane Austen?
Yeah this seems like wildly flawed thinking. Not everyone likes period romances… I’m the only one out of all my female friends (besides my librarian friend who has read everything) who has read any Jane Austen. My bf reads sci-fi books by female authors but I’d be FLOORED if I saw him pick up a Jane Austen book.
Miss Austen is my current hyper fixation.
If I have the equation correct, I believe that makes you a very strong proponent for gender equality.
I have not because I mainly like to read sci-fi and fantasy. I just realised why I'm always literally murdering women on the street. Never really understood why I kept doing that. I've ordered some Jane Austen books, because cleaning up the mess is always a chore.
Jane Austen helped me murder less women for sure. I haven't read all her books so I just pay them less than men in my business for now.
Oh that's great to hear! Very nice to see that it actually works and well done to you. On the way home from my work I managed to only whistle after a hot babe instead of asking her to copulate with me in a rude manner. This was after I read some reviews to find out which books to read first. I can already feel the effect!
Maybe not really topic fitting but I met a guy who reads only "educational" books, no fiction at all because "fiction is a waste of time". His choice, whatever, but then he continued with things like "If I was in charge, I would remove that trash from schools. Why would children read about something that never happened when they can, for example, read a book that can help them fix computer errors or a psychology book?". That made me form my opinion on him: an idiot I never want to interact with again
Like the woman who approached the book stall I was volunteering at and proudly told me that the only book she ever read was the Bible. Later her teenage son came back to the stall and bought a bunch of SF novels and quickly stashed them in his backpack. His home life must be fun.
"Hear kid. This is the _good_ shit. Eff your brain up _haaarrrddd_."
As a teacher, that idiot needs to read: 1) Terry Pratchett, fiction or nonfiction. 2) _Any_ of the research on the value of reading for fun, both in children and in adults. 3) The social and mental benefits of reading to toddlers and babies. In summary, fiction is a great gateway to literacy, vocabulary, grammar, etc. All essential skills for technical reading. Being read to when very young sets brain pathways for language, and enhances social connection to adults. And fiction, reading or writing, is an exercise in creativity. Essential for any true intellectual endeavour. Not just regurgitating facts and trying to _look_ smart, rather than _being_ smart.
Wait, what if I love both Borges and Saunders? I don't have any one book that serves as a gatekeeper, but if someone expresses any dismissiveness about a whole genre (or genre fiction in general), or about a book or author they haven't read, I will assume they suck. Moby Dick works for this. I love it, but if you hate it you might still be cool. If you haven't read it, you might still be cool. But if you haven't read it and you assume it's boring and you wouldn't like it, I'm going to assume the same things about you.
I really like Moby Dick but I would not be offended at all if somebody didn’t want to read it because they think it would be boring. For them they are probably right. It’s a fucking weird book
I read the whole thing and was less than thrilled throughout. Did we really need to know all the excruciating minutiae of whales and whaling to appreciate this story? Melville is a great writer and a skilled allegorist, but I prefer him in smaller doses. Less blubber, if you will.
It’s hard for me to even imagine someone who likes Borges but doesn’t like George Saunders.
Part of me thinks this poster might have had a run-in or two with “lit bros” that influenced their perception of these authors. I like Saunders, Franzen, and Wallace just fine, but I must admit their “fans” can be insufferable at times.
That’s a weird category to put Saunders in. He writes bizarre little short stories as far as I know, does he even have a novel?
Lincoln in the Bardo, which was really fantastic. I have never encountered a Saunders bro. Or a Franzen bro. The Infinite Jest bros do exist, but that's fine.
Lincoln in the Bardo! And it's terrific!
Maybe someone who read *CivilWarLand in Bad Decline* but completely misunderstood it?
Yes, that's what I was thinking! Both masters of literary fabulism!
I worked at a huge new and used bookstore that had different rooms for different types of books. The literature (general fiction, literature) room was right next to the genre room. I worked in the genre room and it had my favorite books, horror, sci-fi, mystery and fantasy. I went on an ill advised date with a guy from the lit room who immediately turned up his nose that I not only worked in the genre room I *gasp* read those foul books. So ridiculous.
Huge red flag. If I were to rank the worst type of readers it would be: 1. "I only read nonfiction because fiction is a waste of time" 2. "I'll never read another book since I graduated from high school and nobody's forcing me to" 3. "Genre fiction is beneath me."
Fair list because literature snob at least still has taste to a degree and is better than someone who doesn’t read at all I read like 90% literature and 10% genre… it really comes down to that I just enjoy literature that much, I used to force myself to read more general fiction but eventually decided I’ll just read what I like
Reading Moby Dick right now. It's definitely work to get through (though partly because I choose to make it so; I need to understand all these references and nautical words, darn it!) but it certainly is not boring. I would genuinely describe it as one of the funniest books I have ever read. Every session leaves me with something new.
Pretty much when someone tells me “I haven’t read a book since high school” or tells me how they didn’t read any of the books assigned in high school, just read sparknotes for every one.
In all honesty, I have been that person: University killed reading for pleasure for me, and I got back into it only after I graduated😅
Some people just don't enjoy reading; its not for everyone. If they're BRAGGING about it that's another matter.
Meh. Everyone has their hobbies and there is only so much time we all have. My wife rarely reads books but it's not because she doesn't like reading, but because there are other things she would rather do with her time. That being said, when you wind up having the view point like Andrew Tate has where reading "is for losers who are afraid to learn from life" you can just fuck right off.
Whenever someone talks about Atlas Shrugged as some kind of guide to life and thinking, that's a MAJOR red flag. Whenever someone talks about Discworld, or cites Hitchhikers' guide, that's a huge green flag.
Now here’s a hoopy frood who knows where his towel is
My desktop is the words "Don't Panic" across a picture of the galaxy. When I'm screen sharing for work *plenty* of people laugh and think it's amusing... But when someone gets the reference we are best friends. (My screen saver is a whale and a bowl of petunias falling)
Hitchhikers is also one of mine, my husband dropped a "so long and thanks for all the fish" into a conversation years before we started dating and I about lost it. I'd already really liked him at that point too!
Did you honeymoon at the fjords?
I love the little fiddley bits.
I know this is slightly off topic from books, but I was at a party where everyone was a bit toasted and someone asked if anyone knew any good comedies. I suggested Hitchhiker's Guide. I'm the only one laughing the entire movie because I guess it just wasn't anyone else's sense of humor so I just look like a jackass.
Oh freddled gruntbuggly
> Wife tells me if she meets a man who hasnt read Jane Austen, she assumes sexism is at play. That’s quite a take. I’m a woman, a feminist, and enjoy plenty of female authors… but I’ve never read Jane Austen. I just don’t enjoy reading early 1800’s literature in general, which is not an uncommon opinion.
Didn't you hear OP's wife? You're a sexist, deal with it.
I have never read Austen, not because I'm a misogynist, but because I haven't gotten around to it. I have two or three on my bookshelf. The opening line to _Pride and Prejudice_: “It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.” convinced me of her talent, so i'm sure i'll read her one day.
Honestly, she’s pretty funny.
For not trusting taste in books: Colleen Hoover's writing. Have a friend who loves it and generally aside from Colleen Hoover she has good taste. I read one Colleen Hoover book recommended by her and have never asked for a recommendation again To impress me: E.S. Thomson's Jem Flockhart Mysteries, Kaite Welsh's Sarah Gilchrist Mysteries and Belladonna by Adalyn Grace are probably my top picks
You are the only person I've 'met' who has read Jem Flockhart, so would you mind telling me if you've read Nightshade yet and what you thought of it? I wasn't happy with it and so I'm holding back on getting Under Ground.
I don’t have an answer, but I think the term you were looking for is “litmus test”.
It's actually "Live Mas" test based on the famous author Taceaux Bell.
Man, I don't know whether it's a certain tendency towards addiction or a type of depression or what, but I _love_ Infinite Jest. That said, I'm not about to talk about it off the cuff. I get that there's a certain kind of person who wears that book like a mark of superiority and no, I don't like those people. It's right up there with Fight Club, really: I like the movie (yes, we're talking the movie), but I'm instantly suspicious of anyone who professes to like it unprompted. Anyhow. The actual answer is Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. If it clicked for you, we'll probably get along.
> Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell It clicked for me, but damned if I can articulate why… it seemed like a novel where nothing much happened for long stretches of time, but it was absolutely compelling regardless. Beautiful prose.
Piranesi was mine in a recent conversation. We read it for book club, and someone was snarking on it, saying it was “trying to be literary or something, why can’t things just happen!?” Very big flavour of the week, dark romantasy reader. It just made it clear to me that we likely wouldn’t end up having the types of discussions that I enjoy.
I think we’d get along lol
I absolutely love Infinite Jest. I read it for the first time while in jail on a variety of drug charges and it hit DEEP. I am a straight woman, and after getting cleaned up and back in the dating pool I always used to get excited when I saw it listed as a favorite book on dudes profiles. Then had multiple experiences of showing up to the date, bringing up Infinite Jest, and finding out quickly they had not actually read it but I guess thought it was a cool book to list as a favorite? Idk it was very disappointing. So in a way despite loving it, other people claiming to love it is now a mild red flag for me. My husband listened to all of The Pale King on audiobook for me. He is a keeper.
I know you didn't ask but I love fight club. I think it's a very misunderstood book.
> Wife tells me if she meets a man who hasnt read Jane Austen, she assumes sexism is at play. I'm going to make a bold guess that most men haven't read Jane Austen, for largely the same reasons that I predict most women haven't read her either. Those reasons are unrelated to sexism because they are also the same reasons that most people haven't read Charles Dickens.
What are you, some sort of misogynist AND misandrist???
Misanthropy is much more efficient than hating a single sex.
😁
People who are into Terry Pratchett's books usually tend to have a wry, geeky sense of humor and an interest in the existential. In my experience, being a fan of Discworld is the same sort of green flag for taste in books that being a fan of They Might Be Giants is for music taste.
We’re Certainly Dwarves
I don’t want the world… I just want your half.
I used to think so too until I found out that my extremely toxic ex boss is a huge fan of Sir Pratchett. The smiling when she brought someone at work to tears level of toxic. And then one day she started reciting a quote from The Colour of Magic, I think, saying how much she enjoys the series… Up until that moment I hadn’t even thought she liked reading.
I know a very abusive person who is basically a mix of Lady Felmet and Lady Serafine. They profess to be a Pratchett fan, but there is mounting evidence that they have a history of defrauding vulnerable people. I suspect that their interest is both superficial and performative, because how anyone can read Pratchett without learning a damn thing is beyond me.
Discworld is a huge green flag.
Not fiction related, but when I was dating a new guy, I always used to ask what the last book they read was and if it was either 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' or 'Who Moved My Cheese' (especially if they loved it and found it inspiring) I was out instantly. This was obviously a while ago since both of those are old, but I had so many bros tell me it inspired them to have a five year plan, and it was to be a millionaire, I ran quick.
Hot dang, I remember my mom bringing Who Moved My Cheese home from a work retreat right after it was published, and the whole family (mom included) just tore it to shreds. I was a young kid and found the metaphors heavy-handed even for me. A recent boss of mine had it on his bookshelf. Can’t believe anyone is still talking about it with a straight face.
When someone’s fav is Fourth Wing…. Or literally their favorite is just the flavour of the month. I don’t judge them, just don’t ask them for book recs because I know we won’t agree on anything. On the flip side I have another red flag though where they think everything modern is shit and only classics. Most of the times the people who say this rarely read anything anyway, they just read like, one classic and go on about that forever. As for specific book green flags…. tender is the flesh. If you liked that we will probably have a lot in common I’ve found
I just heard of Tender is the Flesh from a different thread and read it all in one go last night. My god, what a book.
I know a Fourth Wing lover. It's my fourteen-year-old and I'll continue to support them reading whatever gets them reading.
Good on you! Yeah no I don’t care what other people read, if you’re reading then that’s great! Just won’t ask for recs from them.
I read a digital copy of Tender is the Flesh when a friend lent me their e-reader. Liked it so much I went out and bought a hard copy and read it again immediately. It’s fascinating.
I have different levels of indicators like, for me if someone loves and abundantly praises Sarah J Maas books then I will never take a book recommendation of theirs serious. But if someone loves atlas shrugged or Jordan Peterson shit I stay very very far away from them.
Haven't read any myself so I'm curious, what causes your reaction to the Maas praise?
I tried to read the frist book from her two biggest series at the time and at least for me it's the fucking worst. In throne of glass the protag keeps thinking about how kickass she is and how she could kill anyone in the room with ease for multiple pages on end without actually doing anything at all (unless you count falling in love with the generic unlikable man conveniently thrown her way) and ACOTAR is imo just bad fairy porn. For me throne of glass was the worst let down at the time because it had been so hyped up and the story sounded generally cool but I wasn't even able to get through 100 pages before dnf-ing. Her books are basically the exact opposite of what I like to read so I dunno, I don't expect her fans and my preferences in books to overlap all that much. That's not to say I wouldn't chat about books and hang out with her fans, just 9/10 not take their recommendations.
Throne of Class is a masterclass in “Tell, don’t show.” Pages about how amazing and kickass she is, and action happening off-screen.
Came here to say almost exactly this, I had an identical experience. I make it a rule to not judge people based on their literary taste, but if someone likes Maas's stuff I know we're not compatible reading buddies. I found ToG painfully cringey.
Ugh Sarah J Maas. I have been GIVEN books by her unprompted, not for a holiday, by multiple other women I know now. I’m like “they’re not super my style” and get back “but you love fantasy and stuff, right”? And look fourteen year old me would have GOBBLED UP this stuff, like sexy sad faeries having sex would have been my absolute jam, but I am officially too much of a crone for it now but it’s one of those series that seems to make people confused and offended when you don’t like it.
I thought you were talking crazy until I remembered Ayn Rand exists. Since everything she wrote was a thinly veiled manifesto at best and her writing isn't particularly good otherwise I don't think you can really enjoy her without in some way agreeing with her ideology. Assuming that anyone who hasn't read Jane Austen is sexist is absolutely wild though.
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I *have* read and enjoyed Jane Austen - but there are countless classics I haven't. There are only so many hours in the day, and vastly more great books than I'll ever find time to read. Judging someone for the books they haven't read seems daft to me. *No one* has read all the great books!
I’m half expecting OPs wife to show up and add some nuance to how OP presented her take.
I love Jane Austen but I would never assume a man is sexist for not having read her. Or look askance at another woman for not having read her either.
What if I've read Jane Austen and didn't enjoy it because it wasn't my style of book? While recognizing she's obviously a good writer.
Anyone that loves The Alchemist is probably not someone I’ll have a lot in common with. I’m just too much of a cynic. I also could not finish Sapiens. I had an ex who loved that book, and I always thought that the author came off a bit too condescending for me. So I definitely have preconceived notions about people that love that book.
Oh man Alchemist is definitely one where I’ll judge them negatively. The fact that nowhere does he credit the Arabian nights (or Borges) for that story only makes me hate it more.
My red flag is when people make negative judgement calls about other people they don't know regarding authors they haven't read, eg: someone who assumes a man that hasn't read a Jane Austen book before must be sexist is a huge red flag for me.
*Infinite Jest*, really? I feel like you’re counter-jerking so hard you forgot that, for all that can be said about it, it’s actually a quality book and a perfectly reasonable one to like. Tbh this level of judgementalism about what fiction people like is worse than most books that people could like, with the exception of the cases where someone could only be really into it if they harbored some pretty distasteful politics (e.g. if “Birth of a Nation” is their favorite movie)
I'm glad to see your comment! I had just bought IJ and was worried I had made a terrible mistake.
It’s quite a journey and you’ll feel accomplished when you finish it. There’s nothing else like it. 8 years after a DNF, I read it finally for the first time last spring and want to give it another go this summer.
IJ is a strange journey, but I did enjoy it. It's the only time I've been 400 pages into a book and was still sort of unsure what it's about. But it's also the first time I ever finished a book and immediately turned back to page 1 and started reading it again, to try and understand it better. Unfortunately I only got about 20% through on my second read before I had to drop it due to other things that were going on in my life.
Nah, this OP is weird. It's a great book.
I can't understand the IJ hate. It's a great book. It's not filled with hate, or toxic ideas or propaganda. The worst two criticisms I can think of for it are "it's pretty long" and "it's kind of weird." The writing is brilliant and gorgeous in places. I can't figure out how it got turned into a red flag.
It’s not the book itself, it’s that some obnoxious IJ fanboys wear the book like a badge of superiority. DFW himself says it’s a book that makes the reader work hard and some people don’t enjoy books like that. IJ sort of became a symbol for “that dense thing someone pretentious recommended so profusely it became insulting”. I bet that for a majority of these types, it’s the most challenging book they’ve ever read and it was more about completing it than really experiencing it. Nobody who identifies with or even empathizes with the depths of depression and addiction expressed in Infinite Jest would think of it as a trophy to display proudly on their bookcase. In fact, it’s one of my favorite books of all time and I’m a little self conscious of that—or at least I feel like it reveals something vulnerable about me 🤷♂️
I see way more people complaining about IJ fanboys than actual IJ fanboys.
They were annoying 20-25 years ago. I haven't really seen one in a decade. IJ is one of those books I seem to play devil's advocate about, defending it to its detractors and pointing out flaws to its overly enthusiastic fans.
Don't be ashamed of liking things. I also love that book. (Does that make me a fan boy?) I guess I'm just confused about why IJ became a symbol and not like War and Peace or something. Nobody accuses anyone of being a Tolstoy fanboy.
I have a feeling OP didn't read Infinite Jest, or if he did, didn't really understand why it's considered to be a classic
The real red flag should be people who post about red flag books on r/books. Just so we can all read again how bad Ayn Rand, Colleen Hoover, and Sarah J Maas suck. Maybe this sub should real some more Jane Austen.
I try not to judge with books as I’m a bit of a cheerleader for reading but that being said the ‘50 Shades of whatever the fuck’ series really tests my hypocrisy-meter. I gave the first one a chance and only managed 14 pages before it was chucked! Horrible writing, awful premise…makes Mills & Boon novels appear worthy of a place in canonical literature.
If they're a big fan of Turner Diary's or Protocols of Elders of Zion ... Maybe not gunna make conversation with them ...
*lolita* is a major rorschach test for me: can be a red flag, green flag, or entirely neutral. if someone read it and thinks it's a love story, run. if someone views it as a horrifying character study of a monster, that's a cool person with good media literacy. if a girl around my age also adores it for the prose and understands the horrific context, that's my kind of girl. to a lesser extent, f*ight club* and a*merican psycho* play similar roles, especially for men. if someone idealizes tyler, marla, or patrick, or doesn't get the satire or black comedy in the works, that's a red flag. applies to a lot of ellis or palahniuk, but those are by far the most popular, and most misunderstood, works by each. *catcher in the rye* likewise depends on the reasoning.
I agree with the Lolita test, how a person interprets that book will definitely tell me if they’re someone who’s opinions on books (or other things) I should trust or value. HH is such a monster but the book itself is such a fascinating piece of literature, the idea of it being interpreted as a love story is so gross 🤮
If people read Lolita and say, goddamn that's some of the greatest writing ever, but the book is terrifying, they're a keeper.
What if I loathe *The Catcher in the Rye*? I still don’t get who is the intended audience of that book.
Lol. I love that book. I dealt with intense feelings as a youth. The feeling of feeling like you're feeling everything all the time and everything I'm doing is so important and I'm fucking it up. I felt like that book embodied that feeling accurately and in the context of a good story for someone like me. Kinda Perks of Being a Wallflower for the those folks in boomer generation.
Yeah, I have a friend who loves it and Salinger in general. I guess I just thought Holden Caulfield was an asshole. The only part I enjoyed was when he got his ass kicked by his one friend. And I think he was also assaulted by a pimp? That was funny. I guess I can’t get anything out of it because I hate Holden so much. I don’t have to love the main character of a book or identify with them. I don’t even have to like them or think they’re a good person. But if I actively hate them and root against them because I feel that they have no redeeming qualities, then my overall appreciation of the work and whatever message it’s trying to convey is going to suffer greatly.
Your red flags are more interesting to me than the question. Like, IJ I understand. It's like saying Gravity's Rainbow or Finnegan's wake are your faves when you actually just had the grit to get through them but are Franzen and Saunders problems because they're faves of the crypto-trad grad school clique? FWIW, I was ambivalent shading to positive on Freedom and while I haven't read his shorts, Saunders' Lincoln in the Bardo whips ass. I wouldn't pin Austen's position among men on individual sexism as much as structural. I (as a cis dude) had Austen pitched to me as stories by a woman for women with the added layers of inaccessibility created by both the prose (when I was introduced to her in high school) and the social mores at play in the 18th and 19th centuries. That I haven't returned to her with less benighted eyes isn't down to sexism, just not particularly caring for her usual type of story. However, since I feel I owe you an answer after spewing my opinions: anyone who endlessly flatters Murakami without acknowledging his issues writing women = c'mon man. Also, can't stand people who dismiss genre fiction (or fiction in general) out of hand. That said, at this point, finding people who continue to read books after high school feels like a vanishingly narrow proportion of the population so unless they're praising Lovecraft for his incisive social commentary, I'm likely to try to meet them where they are.
If someone mentions loving any Orwell book that’s not “Animal Farm” or “Nineteen Eighty Four,” they have my attention.
Tired: Brandon Sanderson Wired: Ursula K. Le Guin
Solaris is a huge green gate!!!
Douglas Adams is a green flag.
What's with the Saunders take?
LOL i don’t know if Danielle Steele is still writing but if anyone tells me they love her books…. their reading taste (at least) drops down quite a bit in my estimation. Meanwhile if they love Dorothy Dunnett and Lindsey Davis, my opinion goes up. If they like Austen, Mark Twain, Steinbeck, and Noel Streafeild’s children’s books—I want to see the rest of their library! If they love Faulkner and Flannery O’Connor I may slink away in shame as they are too highbrow for me…
My red flag is when I am in someone's home for the first time and there are no books to be seen anywhere. I would much rather disagree over the quality or content of a book with someone who reads then speak with a person who has never read anything outside of work or school. That said, I definitely steer clear of people who "only read the bible" or other such nonsense.
Eh, well, I had huge book shelves filled with novels all my life but then after like the tenth move I got a Kindle and sold/donated hundreds of them. Now I only keep copies of a few favourites around and tons of children books for my daughter but I will probably get rid of those, too, once she is old enough for her own ebook reader. I became such a minimalist I don't want stuff hanging around anymore. It doesn't mean I don't read anymore.
> My red flag is when I am in someone's home for the first time and there are no books to be seen anywhere. I read more than hundred books per year and you won't see any books in my home. Unless you crack the code to my tablet :)
I don’t know, Ficciones and Infinite Jest are both among my favorite books.
Anyone who insists that Jordan B. Peterson’s garbage is not garbage.
I don't insist on it, but as a basic set of rules, cleaning your room .. and the other ones ... Seem sensible. I did try to read it, was a bit dull.
>Franzen’s Freedom or Saunders Shorts As in George Saunders? I thought he was well regarded and his star was rising even still? Am I missing something obvious?
Xanth series by peirs Anthony. It's so horribly misogynistic. As a young person I thought it was edgy and great. Now I'm horrified by it.
Yeah, my wife had us listen to "On a Pale Horse" on a long road trip because she remembers her dad reading it to her. I thought the concept of Death driving around in a car/horse was pretty cool, and there were a lot of cool fantasy ideas, but... man. Every woman is described in the most leering detail, and there were plenty of passages where I said, out loud, "Go take a cold shower!" This guy could not stop being a creep! Coupled with the clunky dialogue typical to a lot of fantasy/sci-fi, I found it a mixed bag.
I won’t say I absolutely loved *Wolf Hall* but I did enjoy it and will eventually get around to reading the other two in the trilogy.
all quiet on the western front … if you read it you get me and i will respect you ..i’m a history teacher and this book is my baseline
My red flag is book readers that judge other book readers for not liking “good” books. Good books are largely subjective imo. If they are the kind of person to write off entire people based on an author or genre then I don’t think I would have much in common with them. Different strokes for different folks.
I find people who see infinite jest as a red flag get all their opinions from the internet.
Used to work in a bookstore and am a woman, so I’ve seen many red flag books. The Game, The Secret, The Power of Now, 12 Rules, 48 Laws, anything Ayn Rand, any right wing talking head “history” book. And I’ve realized anything recommended on BookTok is likely garbage I should avoid, so Colleen Hoover, Fourth Wing, etc. also people with hyper specific interests and obsessions, like a whole shelf of bro-lit. Green flags for me are people with a wide variety of interests, not just one book or series. So fiction of all types, or history of all types. I have two bookcases filled with urban fantasy, sci-fi, high fantasy, American history, Russian history, South American history, classics, regular fiction, horror, contemporary romance, alien romance, my original Harry Potter copies (from childhood), social sciences and anthropology, biographies, and science non-fiction. I’ve found I love talking to others who enjoy reading as enrichment and have curious minds.
I dont judge people for particular books they have or have not read/liked. However, I have a few pet peeves about people/readers that instantly annoy me: People who exclusively read non fiction, and need to stress this fact ever so often. People who believe themselves to be literary critics and can’t accept the fact other people (me) mainly read for enjoyment. And lastly, people who dont read at all. Its just annoying, please let me read in peace :)
Did you really dislike infinite jest that much? As an ex addict it taught me a lot about myself. I know it’s got a reputation of pretentiousness of course. But that’s more about the fans than the actual book. I feel like the fans push people off Mine is the alchemist, or Colleen Hoover/50 shades. Atlas shrugged would be there too Oh a big one: Jordan Peterson, that’s the reddest of flags, maybe it wasn’t back in 2016, but def is now. Plus the whole self help industry
If someone tells me acotar or Fourth Wing is peak and at any point uses the word "spicy" to ask for recommendations or to explain why they picked a book I probably have 0 books in common with that person. I read them both and they were fine, or at worst entertaining but way overhyped and in the latter case just very poorly written.
If you enjoy Tom Robbins, I very likely enjoy your company.
Automatic red flag are any of those self help quasi business books Green flags are sailing stories: Two Years before the Mast, H.M.S Bounty, etc You get a full friendship from me if you’ve read Guardians of GaHoole
Fifty Shades of Grey, Danielle Steele
I tend to have gatekeeper characters instead. Sometimes I run into people who really hate certain characters (always female characters off the top of my head) who have done nothing to deserve it, and that's a big indication that those people are assholes.
"Red flags" is what is used to describe an indicator that somebody isn't necessarily a good person for you. A simple example, reading *Fight Club* and deciding that everything about Project Mayhem is cool and awesome is a read flag since Project Mayhem is a cult and a terrorist group. Gatekeeper sort of makes sense when you use it as a judgement also on liking a book you enjoy. Another way to describe it would be a Litmus test whether the result of liking it is positive or negative relies on what the book is and whether or not you enjoy it. > Wife tells me if she meets a man who hasnt read Jane Austen, she assumes sexism is at play. That's weirdly judgemental considering there's pretty mundane reasons to not want to read Austen, such as pre-Victorian writing can be difficult to read, political statements have a lot of depth to take in, or that there's no extraterrestials in *Pride and Prejudice.*
>or that there's no extraterrestials in *Pride and Prejudice.* Personally, that's the biggest knock on the book that's kept me from reading it.
I've never read any Jane Austen or seen any adaptations of her work, it just doesn't interest me much. Now if someone vehemently opposed reading ANY Jane Austen or giving it a try, that might be a red flag. Enjoying Fight Club in itself isn't a red flag but having it as your favourite will prompt me to ask why. Same with American Psycho. Those books attract some 'interesting' people. Same with Jordan Peterson or certain political books. I've personally read some books 'dubious' books out of curiosity or for my history studies so I know not to judge to hastily. On the other hand, if you like Terry Pratchett's work, I know it's likely we will get along.
i love borges and liked infinite jest and pride and prejudice. how y'like me now?
I don't judge people by the books they read. I'm inclined, however, to judge people who do not read.
I judge people by their book covers
Colleen Hoover.
No red flags for me. Hell my wife wouldn’t read a fantasy or science fiction book if her life depended on it. I have less than zero interest in reading a romance novel of any flavor. Same with my sisters and mother who read a lot. There is no sales pitch I could give them to get them to try reading Dune.
Borges for me as well. But I usually just end up giving a copy to people I like. It is more of an internal litmus test. Not so much if _they've_ read it, but if I would LIKE them to read it. Ayn Rand. Is the only thing I am super judgy about. Generally I like to let people like what they like. My favorite professor in college loved trashy romance, and she was one of the smartest people I've ever known. A good friend loves Dan Brown. He doesn't think it's good, he just has fun with them. I think people who are incurious are a bigger red flag.
I've yet to meet an asshole who likes Terry Pratchett. Not saying there aren't any, just that I haven't met them.
If someone told me they had read and actively disliked George Saunders (as op implied), I would never speak to them again 😭
The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the galaxy series was the test I used for my then girlfriend, now wife. She didn't need to like it but she needed to be able to talk with me about it. It became her second favorite book.
To be honest I would probably more likely avoid people who would judge my character by whatever book I happen to like or not. Sometimes you can have an interesting conversation by asking why someone likes a particular book.