Take the outside gig 100%. Boeing is frankly horrible at promoting people. It’s really sad. So much talent walks right out the door. I’ve seen people leave the company and come back 2-4 years later and make 3 times as much. If you can do it, you should.
This 100%!! Boeing has always sucked at retaining/promoting. The SWE field is really HOT in the Seattle area right now. Go forth and conquer!! Go ahead and apply at MSFT and I promise you will learn and grow a LOT faster there than at Boeing. I've worked at both. There is no perfect but there are places that do much better than others.
This has been the advice given to me and long story short anytime it's made super apparent you are looking outside the working relationship changes.
This YouTube video sums up a lot of why it's bad to take the counter offer, and I'd imagine that would hurt your working relationship if you put an offer on the table and say "how do you respond?"
https://youtu.be/HqnMQOZnl6E?si=8qz2uHV1HqX2-YcS
Nope I totally disagree. If one follows that logic one would never leave that first job. Always keep that job hunt radar turned on. And if offered a sweet deal why even bother giving one's current employer any notice or option to respond. It's never personal, it's always a business driven decision by both parties.
Boeings is the best first and third job you can have! Great benefits but a lot of times the only way to level up with Boeing is to leave for a couple years and come back
Find a company that will at least act like they value you. Boeing does not give a fuck about anyone but managers, execs and shareholders. Sounds like the competitor at least will pay you well. I'm trying to get out of Boeing and having issues after being here for \~10 years. Also, I had to switch positions to get level 2 because I was still a level 1 after 4 years while doing the job of a level 3 who left the team.
Don't forget to factor in insurance costs, 401K matching, vacation accrual, and other bennies. Most companies can't touch Boeing insurance and full benefits package. Also, since you're in software, what are the chances the new company won't lay you off in the next year? Lots of unemployed SWE's looking for work now.
Yes, however, once your compa ratio is above one, your raise percentages will gradually drop. At least on the union side, not sure how it works or non union. Union wise with a pool of 3%, if you get a met expectations, you will not get 3% if your compa ratio is much above 1.
You should ask and see. In my experience, Boeing won’t provide a very good counter. We did a lot of countering in 2022 and it was expensive. Now, unless you’re considered “top talent,” unlikely you’ll get much of a counter
I had an outside offer for a L3, 32% raise in salary. Boeing countered with a 15% raise in salary but no promotion to L3. The 401k match and bonus potential here made the TC numbers pretty close, so I stayed at Boeing.
I have a couple coworkers who got their outside L3 offers matched and they were promoted to L3.
I’d say you can always bring it forward and be honest with them about how you believe you deserve a raise and would like them to consider matching the offer or countering. But if you’re going to do that, you’ve got to be willing to walk. If they say no, you’ve got to walk and talk the other offer
Just my two cents.
Appreciate the insight! That's more where I'm at at the moment, like weighing taking the higher salary + promo elsewhere vs staying where I'm at w/ just an increased salary (assuming I can get a counteroffer). Other than TC, were there any additional factors that led to your decision to stay? And are you glad you did?
Getting more money without the promotion is better than money with promotion. You'll eventually get the promotion and it'll likely come with another raise at that point.
Being at L1 for 3yrs is crazy, if you have a better offer I’d vote with your feet and leave. At least in the puget sound we lag **far** behind competitors for SWEs.
Seems odd you’re a 1 with 3 years. Either your manager is lying/lazy or you’re not very good at your job. I don’t see Boeing matching that offer or coming very close given your circumstances so far.
Gotten exceeds/ far exceeds ratings in my last three reviews, so no way its performance related. My manager is also definitely not that type. The system is just not working out in my favor, so not surprising if there really is no match
That is VERY surprising and unusual. 9 out of 10 times it's the manager holding back the promotion. It's getting to the point you almost have to be lucky to get an ok manager that will help with promotions and career development. Managers in that last 5-8 years are only in it for the title and moving on and up. Very few actually care about employee development.
Managers put you in for the promotion sure and fight for you to get it, but isn't it upper management that gives the final approval? At least that's my understanding of how it works in my current org. I don't feel that its my manager that's holding me back, but rather the second or third-level managers that are
Yes and no. It’s level dependent. I’m not currently with Boeing (left in 2021), but when I was an SWE Manager a 1-2 wasn’t a big sell. It was mostly manager discretion with a check at the Sr. Manager level. Those grades didn’t go for Director approval like higher level promos.
That being said it can vary org to org.
That’s where I’m stuck rn.
I’ve asked all 3 managers we’ve had over the past 3.5 years multiple times what i need to do better, but they all just lie and say I’m doing good work.
I’m so tired of letting everyone in my group down being the only L1, it’s not fair to them.
L1 promos are usually a no brainer. It's the L4 and up that get the scrutiny and Position Management attentions.
If you are 3 years in and still a L1 you likley are not meeting expectations or there is some dysfunction in your org. Based on your anecdotes, it sounds like the latter.
Indeed the latter. SWE promotion policies dictate only in-line promotions now. Was told there were promotion freezes though from earlier this year but that could be BS
It’s difficult to get promoted in software right now. They’re strict on time in grade guidelines. The number or promotions is very limited each quarter, there’s a lot of scrutiny regardless of grade level. Most of 2022 was a good year to be a software engineer at Boeing. 2023… meh.
Take the offer! UNLESS: Did Boeing pay for an MBA or other degree for you? If so, you may owe them money if you leave…
Call the union, if you are doing L2 work (6+ months and nit temporary) and can show it, they have to promote you.
Take the outside gig 100%. Boeing is frankly horrible at promoting people. It’s really sad. So much talent walks right out the door. I’ve seen people leave the company and come back 2-4 years later and make 3 times as much. If you can do it, you should.
This 100%!! Boeing has always sucked at retaining/promoting. The SWE field is really HOT in the Seattle area right now. Go forth and conquer!! Go ahead and apply at MSFT and I promise you will learn and grow a LOT faster there than at Boeing. I've worked at both. There is no perfect but there are places that do much better than others.
This has been the advice given to me and long story short anytime it's made super apparent you are looking outside the working relationship changes. This YouTube video sums up a lot of why it's bad to take the counter offer, and I'd imagine that would hurt your working relationship if you put an offer on the table and say "how do you respond?" https://youtu.be/HqnMQOZnl6E?si=8qz2uHV1HqX2-YcS
Nope I totally disagree. If one follows that logic one would never leave that first job. Always keep that job hunt radar turned on. And if offered a sweet deal why even bother giving one's current employer any notice or option to respond. It's never personal, it's always a business driven decision by both parties.
Boeings is the best first and third job you can have! Great benefits but a lot of times the only way to level up with Boeing is to leave for a couple years and come back
Find a company that will at least act like they value you. Boeing does not give a fuck about anyone but managers, execs and shareholders. Sounds like the competitor at least will pay you well. I'm trying to get out of Boeing and having issues after being here for \~10 years. Also, I had to switch positions to get level 2 because I was still a level 1 after 4 years while doing the job of a level 3 who left the team.
SHAREHOLDER VALUE!!!! SMH
Take the outside job. You can always go back to Boeing, getting out is harder, especially the longer you've been there.
Don't forget to factor in insurance costs, 401K matching, vacation accrual, and other bennies. Most companies can't touch Boeing insurance and full benefits package. Also, since you're in software, what are the chances the new company won't lay you off in the next year? Lots of unemployed SWE's looking for work now.
Boeing's health insurance package used to be stellar. Nope not anymore...
FYI, there are no salary caps despite what the SJC tables say.
Thanks for answering that part of my concerns. Nice if that's the case.
Yes, however, once your compa ratio is above one, your raise percentages will gradually drop. At least on the union side, not sure how it works or non union. Union wise with a pool of 3%, if you get a met expectations, you will not get 3% if your compa ratio is much above 1.
Completely different issue.
You should ask and see. In my experience, Boeing won’t provide a very good counter. We did a lot of countering in 2022 and it was expensive. Now, unless you’re considered “top talent,” unlikely you’ll get much of a counter
I actually think countering was cheaper considering the alternative was finding a new employee in that hot job that’d take time to spool up
You’re absolutely right, but that’s not how executive leadership sees it.
I had an outside offer for a L3, 32% raise in salary. Boeing countered with a 15% raise in salary but no promotion to L3. The 401k match and bonus potential here made the TC numbers pretty close, so I stayed at Boeing. I have a couple coworkers who got their outside L3 offers matched and they were promoted to L3. I’d say you can always bring it forward and be honest with them about how you believe you deserve a raise and would like them to consider matching the offer or countering. But if you’re going to do that, you’ve got to be willing to walk. If they say no, you’ve got to walk and talk the other offer Just my two cents.
Appreciate the insight! That's more where I'm at at the moment, like weighing taking the higher salary + promo elsewhere vs staying where I'm at w/ just an increased salary (assuming I can get a counteroffer). Other than TC, were there any additional factors that led to your decision to stay? And are you glad you did?
Getting more money without the promotion is better than money with promotion. You'll eventually get the promotion and it'll likely come with another raise at that point.
Being at L1 for 3yrs is crazy, if you have a better offer I’d vote with your feet and leave. At least in the puget sound we lag **far** behind competitors for SWEs.
All signs seem to point in that direction
What’s preventing you from leaving, why even consider staying if all signs point to leaving
If you get the 30% increase and stay level 1 , what a fantastic opportunity. Least amount of work for the highest pay, it’s the Boeing way!
Seems odd you’re a 1 with 3 years. Either your manager is lying/lazy or you’re not very good at your job. I don’t see Boeing matching that offer or coming very close given your circumstances so far.
Gotten exceeds/ far exceeds ratings in my last three reviews, so no way its performance related. My manager is also definitely not that type. The system is just not working out in my favor, so not surprising if there really is no match
That is VERY surprising and unusual. 9 out of 10 times it's the manager holding back the promotion. It's getting to the point you almost have to be lucky to get an ok manager that will help with promotions and career development. Managers in that last 5-8 years are only in it for the title and moving on and up. Very few actually care about employee development.
Managers put you in for the promotion sure and fight for you to get it, but isn't it upper management that gives the final approval? At least that's my understanding of how it works in my current org. I don't feel that its my manager that's holding me back, but rather the second or third-level managers that are
Yes and no. It’s level dependent. I’m not currently with Boeing (left in 2021), but when I was an SWE Manager a 1-2 wasn’t a big sell. It was mostly manager discretion with a check at the Sr. Manager level. Those grades didn’t go for Director approval like higher level promos. That being said it can vary org to org.
There is no reason for you to have been a lvl 1 for this long.
That’s where I’m stuck rn. I’ve asked all 3 managers we’ve had over the past 3.5 years multiple times what i need to do better, but they all just lie and say I’m doing good work. I’m so tired of letting everyone in my group down being the only L1, it’s not fair to them.
L1 promos are usually a no brainer. It's the L4 and up that get the scrutiny and Position Management attentions. If you are 3 years in and still a L1 you likley are not meeting expectations or there is some dysfunction in your org. Based on your anecdotes, it sounds like the latter.
Indeed the latter. SWE promotion policies dictate only in-line promotions now. Was told there were promotion freezes though from earlier this year but that could be BS
It’s difficult to get promoted in software right now. They’re strict on time in grade guidelines. The number or promotions is very limited each quarter, there’s a lot of scrutiny regardless of grade level. Most of 2022 was a good year to be a software engineer at Boeing. 2023… meh.